Why a 48V System is Better than a 12V? [Vatrer Power]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.พ. 2024
- Get this 51.2V Rack Mounted Battery here: bit.ly/3UCvKhC (Use Code: 'BEATBUSH50' for $50 off)
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FYI: Starting March 2024, this product ships with the CHINT CB-125A DC circuit breaker.
Every wonder why people say you should use a 48V battery storage system rather than 12V? I go over the details and take a look at this Vatrer 48V rack mounted battery to examine the internals.
#vatrer #vatrerpower #rackmountbattery #48vbattery #solarbattery #solarstorage
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EDIT 4/29/24 -
Starting March 2024, this product ships with the CHINT CB-125A DC circuit breaker.
==== The following no longer applies ===
WARNING: The circuit breaker used in this product is a AC breaker which does not include arc suppression like in DC breakers. Therefore, do not buy this item until I get a green light from the manufacturer that they updated the circuit breaker.
There are some AC circuit breakers that are ok for DC use you have to look up the spec sheets to find out. NoArk for example have many rated for DC use at 48 volts.
Is there a breaker replacement you'd recommend for those that have already purchased the unit?
Please keep us updated.
@@gridlessbob993 appreciate the share!
Also… a sketchy 15S version they sell advertised as 48V
A few notes:
100Ah cells can discharge 1000 to 2000A when shorted. No BMS there to stop it. The "100A" 1C discharge is a BMS limitation and also BMS-enforced, so externally the BMS won't allow continuous discharge above that. But many BMSs and cells have no trouble allowing 2x or 4x (200A, 400A in this case) discharging for a few seconds. These are mostly limitations of the BMS, not so much the cells. The cells are certainly happier when charged and discharged below 1C... less stress, higher efficiency, but there is no hard-stop.
Inverter disconnect should typically be set at 48.0V and not much lower. Even though the cells can tolerate going lower, the pack will be 95% discharged at 48.0V so there is not much of a point allowing it to go lower.
For tools, even with the extension you are sticking a lot of metal into a battery box. Don't do that! At least wrap the exposed bits with electrical tape as much as practical. Or buy properly insulated tools.
In terms of touching 48V... as long as your hands are dry, the most you will get is a light buzz. If your hands are wet or sweaty though, don't be messing around. More importantly, 48V can produce a substantial arc when you make a mistake, so don't stick your face close to 48V wire / bare metal, you don't want an accidental arc to permanently screw up your vision.
And a substantial amount of power is involved if you actually short anything, even when the BMS is there to save you, so even though you can touch 48V with your bare hands, you still need to be careful when messing around with cables. Always de-energize the wiring or cabling (when possible) before messing with it. People often add extra 2-pole breakers for this purpose... just to make working on the equipment more convenient.
In anycase, there are many advantages to 48V, not the least of which being able to use far lower-amperage solar charge controllers and far, far, far lower cabling losses, being able to use far smaller cables, and far less heat produced from the equipment.
-Matt
Love this! I can't wait until we buy a property again and can go all out on solar & battery backup here in Mexico.
Great video man.
I love how your video's have grown both in professionalism and content as your channel has progressed.
Well done buddy.
Aussie in Asia appreciating the help :)
Good info. Battery options have definitely improved a lot in recent years. What was best to do a few years ago is more expensive now.
Excellent review!
48v with lead-acid is also not 48v. Each lead-acid cell is 2.1v nominal, hence the 12v car battery at full resting voltage of 12.6v, and charge voltage as high as 14v to 15v. This matches well a 4 cell LiFePO4 lithium battery, with a nominal voltage of 12.8v (3.2v/cell) and a charge voltage as high as 14.6v. Put 4 of those in series for 48v and you get 51.2v nominal and a charge voltage as high as 58.4v.
I have two of these batteries and LOVE THEM!
I sub to channels that can teach me something. This absolutely fits the bill. Thanks.
48v dc is the safe limit of voltage there is a good reason for it
Love your content bro very informative
Great explanation! Thanks a lot...
Dude, you totally rock, I am now encouraged to finally start on my DIY, I also will be using 48 volts, also I wanted to let you know that using a 20 volt drill on a 48 volt system; with 48 volt nuts, might by dangerous, be careful please, don't be nuts!
You have a point. I probably should use insulated wrenches and screwdrivers when touching the cell terminals. The 20V drill though, is metallic but 'shouldn't' have a voltage connected to the tip.
Great review! The gear is just getting better and better.
I'd love to see a 100A load open case with an IR camera to see those wire temps. Is it a weak link?
I was told the worst case is 80C so this will be under the 125C of the heat shrink and 200c limit of the cable insulation. Externally, I don't like things to go over 60C since that is hot to the touch. I am curious myself so I'll be running tests on this soon.
cool. thanks for uploading :)
Hey Francis. Love your content specially I am also in Bay Area San Jose area. I recently think of build the off grid solar system with Ecoflow brand. Bought used solar panels locally.
Question is, do I need a permit to build this kind of system since it is not tied to PGE grid.
Thank you for your input
16S FTW!! Cheers!
Very nice 👌 👍
First, I LOVE your videos, always great stuff and created very professionally. Thanks for making things simpler. My question is, can this system be recharged with a standard 120/240v gas/propane generator? Thanks again, great stuff.
Yes you can limit the current draw to the most efficient level for your generator.
Could you do a wire diagram doing theses units in series’s and how would you change with a generator?
Good stuff. But a ground protector pad ... and insulated gloves for the demo ... are better "bedside" manner, cause lots of people are accidental welders ... than the enguneer who knows . LOL.
I like your review style a lot! You should do more batteries 🙂 Does the BMS have passive balancing and if so how many mA? And what is the criterion to start balancing? May look like a detail but may be important in the long term. Also does it have an inrush current circuit?
Yes it has leads to all cells in the battery for balancing. Not sure about the max mA it can do though. When using it, I have seen the balancing kick on pretty easily within the app. No mention of inrush current circuit. (in this case, it is current rushing out into the inverter)
@@BeatTheBush cool thanks
Thanks for the review. I have a Vatrer also. What gauge wire are you using between your inverter and MCCB, and MCCB and T class fuse?
2 awg but I really should move them to 0 awg.
Server rack style is great but I prefer 4x12 series for 48V.
Still can use individual 12V batteries in back up systems if one fails. Server rack goes out and you’ve lost 5.12kW in one swoop. 4x12 and lose a battery take the remaining good battery(s) and hook up to backup 12V rig and keep the lights on.
Question for you. Have you ever lost one of the 12V battery in 48V system? I am interested in the failure mode. If it does fail, the others are likely not far behind.
If I had the skill you have, and I already had the wire, would you recommend changing out the INetrnal DC large wires for much larger AWG welding cable?
The internal wires get warm but it will be well within the limits of the heat shrink and insulation internally. You wouldn't want to touch and hold them but you cannot do it anyway since they are normally inside. They waste a bit of energy from heating so I would check how much energy it wastes vs the cost of the mod.
I need it
Can you make a video on how you switch your grid tied inverter on remotely or automatically for your excess solar
I have a free screenshots of this in the $10/month electric bill video.
Does it better for 48 ups
I'm glad my smart online electrical engineer brother is here to disassemble this and analyze it :)
@9:05 what counts as a cycle?
It's not stated in the manual but I would guess 5120Wh flows out = 1 cycle. So you can flow half, charge half, then flow another half, then that equals 1 cycle. I doubt it would keep track of lower capacity as it ages though.
One full cycle is typically counted as 95% discharged. If a LiFePO4 battery is discharged 50% and then charged, then discharged 50%, then charged a second time... that basically counts as one cycle.
All LiFePO4 cells are roughly similar in terms of cycle life, but marketing materials vary and will market different numbers for different 'depths of discharge'. That said, there are some differences depending on the manufacturer. Pouch cells typically have a higher cycle life than prismatic cells, but prismatic cells are more robust.
Also, it is far less stressful on the battery to cycle the top of the battery than the bottom. The bottom of the battery is where most of the damage actually occurs. So it is very typical to charge to 100% and have the low-voltage cut-off at 5% (roughly 48.0 volts for a 16s pack is 95% discharged). No need to let it discharge further than that.
Interesting :)
Amazon for $1044, just bought one and will get it 5/7/24.
Nice! They updated the breaker, it is DC now.
What do you do about permits / regulations? Do you claim the tax rebate on those?
Wat About SAKO Solar Inverter ( Quality Wise)
Hey BTB, I just sent you an email. Thanks for your very infomative videos, this is a game changer.
FYI I do not do consultations for building systems.
Can your inverter talk to it on closed loop?
No, there is no such function with this rack mount battery. It can only see the voltage at the inverter terminals.
12 volt is my go to system no matter how many people use 48 volt. I feel comfortable with a BMS system in the batteries for added protection. People always say there is something better but that is a relative term. I like the tried and tested 12 volt system and without all that inverting and converting back and forth. But it amounts to what works best for your needs. Mine are very simple and uncomplicated. Next week someone will have a 96 volt system and and say it is better than the 48 volt. I'm enjoying the benefits of a 12 volt system which matches my 12 volt products; no mess; no fuss; no thrills, but gets the job done.
If you have a lot of 12V devices consuming significant energy, it does make sense to stay at 12V indeed. If you're using mostly AC voltage, 48V or higher is better to minimize cable losses.
Wow, how much was it, 50 something watts for the inverter? That's a lot. Is that a fixed value or a percentage of the total load?
50 Watts is fixed when the inverter is on. You can have it power down if it uses less than 50 Watts after a period of time. In order to make it worth while, you'd have to have enough solar to compensate.
If I charge with ups 48v
So let me ask the question here if you have a 12 volt battery at 100 amp hour is that the same as a 48 volt 25 amp hour battery and vice versa if you have a 48 volt 100 amp hour battery that's the same as having a 12 volt battery with 400 amp hour. Is that right?
I may have missed it in your video, but does it have a pre charge resistor? Thank you
To limit the current
Yes, does it have anything to limit current when power is first sent to the inverter to not overload it. If I am saying that right.
There is no mention of one in the manual. I'll check with the manufacturer to see if if I missed it.
Are the wires copper a lot of aluminum being substituted which means you need thicker wires.
Aluminum doesn't necessarily mean it is bad as long as it can carry the current capacity stated and remain under the design temperature in the worst case scenario. So if they use aluminum, yes, they have to use thicker wires to make up for not being copper to meet the same specifications.
Btw, the wires are copper.
Maybe off topic from this video, but......Not having an engineering background, I am still confused about voltage. Household voltage is referred to as 110v or 120v? Half of 240v being 120v makes sense versus 110v. Power Tools can be found as 3v, 6v, 12v, 18v, 20v 24v, 48v? (X *2) or +6v seems like the logic so the 20v makes no sense to me in this example for some reason. US voltage is designed lower/safer than higher European voltage, but I used a $3 cheap plastic adapter off the street and the phone charges just fine.
Look up technology connections "120V"
Just because power tools are usually a certain voltage, doesn't mean they have to be. They standardize on those so it's easy to understand. The voltage of the battery is dependent on the chemistry.
Yes, a cheap power adapter works but there may be features not included such as short circuit protection, low ripple of the output current, longevity, compatibility with various USB protocols, etc.
Most of the time the actual number isn't critical. The U.S. 120v is a nominal number. The actual voltage is allowed to vary from 104v to 127v with a goal to keep it within 108v to 125v. This is from ANSI C84.1 first published in the 1950s and revised multiple times since then. The nominal value used to be 110v(220v) and for a time was 115v(230v) and is now 120v(240v). Europe went thru similar changes and widened the tolerance range in various countries in order to unify their power grid.
And note that those are all average (Root Mean Square or RMS) values, being the D.C. equivalent of a sine wave A.C. voltage. The peak value of a 120v RMS sine wave is over 170v.
Batteries are similar. The common lithium power tool battery uses 5 series cells with a chemistry producing 3.7v to 3.8v nominal at resting full charge. But fully discharged they might be 3.0v and the max charge voltage is up to 4.2v. But often the charger will limit to 4.1v and shut off, at which point the cell will fairly quickly drop to 4.0v. This means the 5 series cells range from 15v to 21v resulting in manufacturers claiming 18v or 20v most commonly. Kobalt uses 6 series cells and calls it 24v. The Ryobi and Greenworks and Kobalt 40v outdoor power tools use 10 series cells. Ego 56v is 14 cells. Etc.
It's all pretty lose, because it is just chemical reactions (batteries) and big mechanical equipment (grid power production). This means anything critical needs to have a voltage regulator and filtering to give it a precise and stable voltage. Your USB "charger" is actually a power adaptor and regulator producing the correct voltage(s) and power levels defined by the USB standard (5v +/- 5% at 0.5a was the original, 1.0a and up to 2.0a are common with the device taking what it needs up to those levels, and it only gets more complicated from there with Quick Charge and USB-C Power Delivery (PD)).
I just received this same battery from Vatrer. Mine when it hits COV has cell#1 at 3.713V and the rest at 3.4 volts. I contacted Vatrer and they said 300mV difference is normal. Lol, no. Having a cell peak at 3.713V while the rest are at 3.4V is not good. Does your battery do this or are all cells balanced well below 300mV diff when COV MODE cuts charging?
3.65V is the limit so going there is really bad for the cell. If you look at 11:34, the top voltage is 3.624V. The issue is not a 300mV difference but the highest voltage each cell attains.
Perhaps one cell is a little lower in capacity so it charges much faster. You might want to discharge it a little and let the balancing work to equalize the energy. Then recharge it back to 100% to see if it does the same thing.
Thank you for the reply. Yes 3.65V is max and certainly not good to float there, 3.713V like mine even worse, all cells except #1 go no higher than 3.4 to 3.45 but the cell#1 is ovrecharging/peaking at 3.713V then battery bms goes into COV while the other cells sit around 3.35v to 3.4V. I like your pack balance distribution better. Yes, I was going to manually deplete a little off of cell#1 and I suggested me doing just that earlier to Vatrer but they didn't address that. They just had their tech say it is all normal and fine with the one cell peaking at 3.713V while all others are at 3.4V.... but we know better. 😉 I was giving it a few cycles to see if it would balance out on its own, but I think I will go ahead and do a minor manual depletion on cell#1 while I have it apart relocating the bluetooth module to the back of the LCD display so it get get some signal out. First thing I noticed after the cell mismatch was the poor range of Bluetooth. I build my own packs and bought this battery so I would not have to match and manage varying balance of salvaged LFP cells, just to manually balance new grade A eve LFP cells...😂
I live in montana...what good is a 32 degree low temp?
Might want to look into sodium Ion batteries. They're' just starting to be mass produced. They can operate down to 14 F. Of course some Lifepo4 batteries have built in heaters but they cost more.
Does it get that cold indoors?
I still feel the goldenmate battery is still the best for the buck in terms of dollar per kWh after the coupon code. Correct me if I’m wrong
It depends if you will be making a 48V system. In that case you have to add in the fuse, wires, lugs, tools, battery balancer, wireless connection monitor to the cost of the goldenmate. This one you get all of that in one package.
@@BeatTheBush And being all in one package the BMS can better balance all 16 cells, instead of 4 groups of 4 cells balanced separately.
I find a medical gel pack works better for cold temperature test. 👍
thanks for the idea! i'll try that next time.
Pylontech US5000 can we compare it with that battery
Noted for future reviews. That being close to 3x the cost, I was hoping it included active water cooling but it doesn't.
How long will an 230 V oven heat with that thing? Imagine I use four electrical plates and the oven at 300 degrees
To do that you'll need a 230V capable inverter. This battery can only do 5kW max so you might run one oven and one stove max for 1 hour.
@@BeatTheBush 1 hour does not refer to 5 kW but Ah. I have heard that I couldn't do this directy from solar panels and inverter and there has to be a battery
The problem with 48v is that when you want to step up and increase your storage rating you have to buy 16 cells, 8 cells for 24v and only 4 cells for 12v, I'm with 24v.
Yes, when you have a 48V system, adding to the capacity will require you to add another 5kWh worth which is another $1100-1300 for cheap ones.
I think it's better to buy lower voltage batteries, which are more standardized and cheaper due to mass production, and simply connect them in series.
Well I guess I have to take back what I said about cheaper. I don't know what's happened to the prices but they're mental now.
You would have to get a battery balancer to keep the cells balanced which adds to the cost.
You can die from a 48 volt system by touching it wrong. Is dying worth the benefit of a few nickels saved on wire?
I was comparing a 48V system to a 48V system with four 12V batteries. Not a 12V system with 4 batteries in parallel where it's a true 12V system. 100A on the 48V would equate to needing 400A capable wiring for the 12V system. The cost differential is in the hundred or two.
48 volts has been the standard for over 100 years in the telco industry I know of no deaths from it worked with it for over 30 years. You save dollars not nickels when you have systems that are in thousands of watts copper is expensive and batteries last longer by drawing smaller currents.
Wow they're using AC rated isolation switches to try and switch High current DC voltage - not good!
Thanks for pointing this out. To me, this is a very serious issue and will pull the purchase link from the video description for now. I will suggest the manufacturer update this to a DC breaker, possibly have them send me a retrofit one and update the product if possible.
Don't want a 200ah one? I'm looking at one now. It's only 189lbs. No problem for me.
A monster fo a battery!
Yes it is! I just noticed that battery doesn't have communication ports on it. Is that or the touchscreen monitor really necessary with the bluetooth that it has installed on the BMS.? How well of a bluetooth signal do you get with that metal case? Thank you for this video and response to my questions.Much appreciated..@@BeatTheBush
Went to a solar expo they had 100 volt inverters and batteries….
Yep, Double the 48V, pretty dangerous at 100V though.
@@BeatTheBush I know but Huawei inverters has some models which area battery ready and they accept only Huawei batteries. I read somewhere they are high voltage batteries.
Math is math....
Batteries dont make more power because you go from 12v to 24v.
2 - 12v , 100ah batteries = 2400 watts regardless of whether in series or parallel.
All things equal, going form 12V to 24V reduces power loss in the cable by about 30% so you can use thinner cables.
people with 4 12v inverters could connect their inverters in series to a 48v battery 😜, joking don't do this. It's good to check, check, check, check & check again when connecting the bus bars.
I had a brain fart and had 2 cells shorted and scared the crap out of me, im lucky the aluminum bus bar didn't weld itself.
yeah and WHY is a 48 volt system better? lots of talk just not about your title.
The whole video explains the advantages.
Smaller cables, cheaper cables with the same wattage output. But I go over this in detail in the video.
I have an issue with the video. You state about the higher the voltage the more dangerous it is. Then you take apart the battery connections without protective gloves. Then you comment that you're an engineer and how its a 100a system. Basically what I'm getting at is you're setting a bad example by not using protective gloves. The first thing you are taught about working with electricity is safety. Kids watch your videos. Set the proper example not just by talking of the dangers but showing how to do things in a safe manner.
Human skin conductivity is low enough it’s fine. For him to touch the connections when current is not running its safe. What’s important is to avoid dropping an uninsulated tool across positive and negative terminals. If you let your kids near this that’s adult supervision negligence.
@@rabbitpumpkin8279 so now blame the parents. I think we are all parents. As such we all help as a collective. I will defend a child from a danger. Even if I'm a complete stranger to that child. Not just children though, I've done alot in my lifetime to protect life and property. I don't want to do something that could harm anyone. I would hope that the op would think the same. Besides if the op was to find himself looking for a job this vid could be bad. Many employers do deep background checks on job candidates. If an employer was to view this vid and note the same thing that I saw this could be used against hiring the op.
Diy! Diy! U should know better never to do this at home.
boring video
Say what? I enjoyed it greatly
That was a great video! I've never seen the 100Ah EVE cells before, got 16 of the 280Ah ones recently. Was glad to see him take the pack apart and seeing the smaller ones here!