Repertoire: The BEST Wagner Orchestral Music Discs
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- Who said there's anything wrong with chunks of orchestral excerpts from Wagner's operas? Certainly not the great conductors listed here. Whether you're a serious or casual Wagner collector, here are the discs you won't be able to live without.
OMG this is better than anything on Netflix
...and it's cheaper too!
Dave is a force of nature. I could listen to him discourse on literally anything.
Fr
the story told in Andre Previn's book about the Klemperer recording is that the old maestro fell asleep while conducting something slow and quiet so the orchestra (New Philharmonia) stopped playing and then the concertmeister approached Klemperer, woke him up gently and said:" let's start again from letter B maestro"
"I can't listen to too much Wagner. I get the urge to invade Poland."
The orchestral music enough Wagner for me, it's the best of his music: dramatic, exciting, moving and with all the screeching omitted. What a film music composer he'd have been!
Wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment! Divorced from the pretension, tedium, and melodrama of Wagner's operatic concept, most of his orchestral music is golden! To have to listen to one of his "lesser operas" in full, though, is a cruel torture I wouldn't wish on anyone but my worst enemy!!
Years ago I visited Triebchen - the villa outside of Lucerne where Wagner lived and composed. In the gift shop of the museum they were playing Wagner of course and it was Szell and the Cleveland. Says something doesn't it? To me Szell and the Cleveland are the pinnacle of conducting and orchestral playing and I'm glad you give them the attention they deserve. Extraordinary accomplishment!
The Szell (orchestral) Liebestod is IMHO one of the greatest sounds (of any genre) ever put to disc, it has never been bettered. That moment when the Tristan Chord is finally resolved is death, sex, and bliss all as one - pure orgasm. Szell was a monster but what results he and the Cleveland achieved.
I agree. Love Szell and the Cleveland on all this stuff.
Szell's redemption theme is beautiful.
I've been relistening to an old London/Decca release of Stokowski with the LSO. Most of the material was recorded in 1966 but the Meistersinger Overture was recorded in 1972. Its been released in various forms over the years. I first owned it as a cassette and then bought a CD of the same material later on. I really like the Funeral March or whatever you wish to call it. It begins a bit earlier than most bleeding chunks of that selection and I think it works better, providing more musical context. He also elicits very good playing from the LSO and it really pulses with energy. He was 84 when he recorded that piece. Whatever he had with his Wheaties more conductors should try it. Highly recommended.
Agreed. Stoky/LSO is a great group of Wagner excerpts. The Everest Stoky disc is also outstanding.
I have problems with a lot of this analysis because there is Wagner music that you simply must have, but what we get here is a list of favorite discs but nothing that includes all the "basics". Plus, a lot of emphasis on the Idyll, which doesn't interest me much, either. . I much prefer a disc of "Ring highlights", etc.
I can't agree with Szell's Wagner, which gets the Mozartean treatment, in my view. "Tristan" is surely not high on my list, but in most of the operas there is no substitute for attending the entire performances. If you can get them in the U.S., that is. They do not have to be boring!!!!. Compare Wagner's music with some of the garbage Italian stuff the MET is doing these days. Wagner is real music! The Funeral "Music" and prelude to Act I of "Meistersinger' still send chills down my spine. Check out the "cadence" of the Funeral Music in Levine's DVD of the Ring!
Wonderful to share love for music (and CD collecting) with you!
Ironically, Klemperer works the "forest murmurs" up to a glowing, ecstatic climax.
Must say thanks, those Schuricht recordings are superlative. Definitely make you sit up and pay attention.
You picked all the winners I have loved for years PLUS introducing me to the Schuricht and Cluytens, two "sleepers" that are extraordinary. Thank you!
Dave you are such a great genius! I did find some Toscanini's Wagner in my basement! LOL
That is awesome!
Lovro von Matacic recorded a "Gotterdammerung Suite" with the Czech Philharmonic for Supraphon. If you can find it it's absolutely worth the listen!
The Szell disc is the greatest ever IMO
I also enjoy Levine's two Wagner excerpt discs
The first Wagner record I listened to, a long long time ago (probably b. C.), featured the "Tannhäuser" overture and the two typical "Lohengrin" preludes by none other than Igor Markevitch, conducting the Lamoureux Orchestra. On the B side were the prelude to the first act and the "Karfreitagszauber" from "Parsifal", with Jochum and the Bavarian Radio Orchestra. A marvellous LP, owned by a good friend. I still keep on listening to it...
I always loved Mravinsky in Wagner. There is pace, precision, and no romanticism or egocentrism whatsoever. The brass in the Tanhauser overture is fabulous. Sharp, powerful, making the whole music move on like a perfect military parade on the Red Square.
And as I believe you mentionned about Mravinsky and the Leningrad Philharmonic in Bartok you really get the sense that for all of them, there is no other choice than Perfection or Siberia. Not fun, but what a result !
I'm a Wagner devotee (to the MUSIC): but not at all an obnoxious fanatic, as you have talked about. There is a big difference there. He's my fave, but I love many others, and all kinds of music, period. You're "over" that phase (and yeah, you were funny!). But I was surprised to see Stokowski as your best pick. That's close to mine: which is his 1966 record with LSO (Ring excerpts) and the fantastic horn player Barry Tuckwell. It's a wonderful Phase 4 London / Decca record, or remastered on CD in 2004 in a Stokowski box.
I also was very surprised that you omitted two of the very finest collections, in my opinion (tho I did agree with several of your picks, esp. Szell):
"Wagner Orchestral Favorites" (VPO/Solti, 2 CDs from London: 1994)
"Wagner Overtures & Preludes" (DGG "Double": 1993) w/ Bohm, Kubelik, Jochum, Karajan, & Gerdes, with VPO, BPO, Bayreuth, Bavarian Radio, and Berlin Opera Orchestra.
To each his own, but I highly recommend these two and the Stokowski disc: especially for those who are just starting to get into Wagner and want to hear (in my humble opinion) some of the very best performances.
Another "sleeper" that I discovered about five years ago is Charles Gerhardt and the National Philharmonic Orchestra (1997, Chesky). It contains an absolutely stunning, glorious "Wotan's Farewell & Magic Fire Music" (17:04 in length) that is so special that it makes one feel like they are hearing that piece for the first time: no easy feat in Wagner music, as you know. It has (for lack of a better term) the romantic "Wagner spirit" in droves.
I'm extremely picky and fussy and perfectionist regarding performances of Wagner (just as I am with Mahler and Beethoven: my other two favorites), so one might say that if I like a Wagner performance, it's got a decent chance of being liked by many. Maybe not, but it makes sense to me.
Kudos again for a very unique, entertaining, and informative series of talks. I immensely enjoy them.
By coincidence I listened to a couple different Wagner/ Stokowski recordings a few days ago. I almost never listen to Stokowski. After listening to his Beethoven Pastoral many years ago, I was so disappointed that I simply avoided listening to Stokowski conduct anything for almost 30 years. The tempo changes and other liberties he took were so over the top that they ruined the piece for me. You’ve made the same observations about other Stokowski recordings. So due to some irrational impulse l decided to listen to his transcription of the 2nd. and 3rd. acts of Tristan and Isolde with the Philadelphia Orchestra. Wow! I was blown away. I don’t think I’ve ever heard more passionate orchestral playing with such beauty of sound. And everything was as tight and together as one could hope for. Simply amazing! Then I listened to his Ring arrangement with the London Symphony and same thing: spectacular! As your reviews illustrate, you can’t judge a conductor or orchestra by any single recording or even a set of recordings. And this is to be expected, live performances are also hit or miss affairs. A confluence of factors that are elusive need to be present for great music making to occur!
So true! Thank you for sharing this.
Your love and enthusiasm for music is so infectious! You have revitalized my love of music… what’s old is new again
That's very kind of you! Thank you.
and ENJOY I certainly did!! And i am an immense Stokowski admirer, his repertoire was huge and he was fearless in everything he did, and wow could he make ANY orchestra sound great
I think this is one of your very best videos.
No fuss & zero bullshit.
I never have bullshit.
@@DavesClassicalGuide That’s true, but concerning Wagner this video seemed even more bullshit free.
This is one of your best discussions. The Stokowski/Houston recording on Everest is one of my favorite guilty pleasures; the Stokowski/LSO recording from the mid-1960's (originally on London Phase 4) is also good, more "normal"(for Stokowski).The Szell performances are unbeatable; I have the recordings in both CD and SACD. Barenboim recorded two CD's of Wagner excerpts with the CSO for Teldec/Warner; I like them for the superlative orchestral playing, with that great CSO brass section leading the way. The Cluytens stereo recording is really excellent and was a surprise.You have previous;y mentioned Abbado's Wagner excerpts with the BPO; I agree it is very good, with a beautiful "Prelude and Liebestod." I plan to check out Klemperer very soon. I would be interested in your opinion of the Barenboim/CSO and Stokowski/LSO recordings I mentioned and the compilations by Karajan/BPO (some analog recordings for EMI and a later digital CD for DG). Thanks so much.
Glad you enjoyed the discussion. I love all of Stoki's Wagner--it's so much fun. I think Barenboim is very good, as you say, for the playing (and I guess he gets the credit for that). Karajan on EMI is a great disc, but I had so many others and the talk was already pushing half an hour so I had to stop (unlike Wagner!). Thanks for mentioning all of these. You've obviously done a lot of serious listening!
Speaking of Stoki, I suggest a review/discussion of his Decca Phase 4 recordings. I have two boxes of them, and there’s some great stuff there ( including R-K Scheherazade, Brahms Sym 1,Tchaikovsky Sym 5, and those Wagner selections)
Another great compilation is the Decca recording of orchestral music from the Ring cycle by Antal Dorati and the National Symphony. Superb performances, with (in my opinion) the best ever performance of the Ride of the Valkyries.
Don't you love it where the trombone replaces Wotan? (Stoky on Everest)
At last, a man with the COURAGE to say it. The truth pours out!
knappertsbusch - vpo - decca
furtwangler - vpo/bpo/philharmonia - emi
solti - vpo - decca
great video btw!
I as debating about including Der Kna, but I already had so much other stuff. The Solti is simply horrible--shockingly bad. Furt, somewhere in the middle. Thanks though--glad you enjoyed it and I appreciate your input.
I have fond memories of the Knapp/VPO recording bought on the bargain priced Decca Ace of Clubs(UK)
label which included the Tannhauser overture - a work I was tempted to offer for the current best
melodies series, not least for the way it moves from its quiet intro to the shiver-inducing full orchestral
blas of its glorious theme. The famous Solti recordings came later! Thrilling.
What a fantastic watch. I really like how you mention the different recording techniques. I recently found a CD at Goodwill titled "The Symphonic Sound Stage" under the Delos label, and it's such a great resource. Instead of the usual liner notes it gives you a track-by-track breakdown of the various venues each song was recorded in, info regarding the acoustics of each venue, the mic techniques utilized and a multitude of important production and arrangement elements to listen for. By far the best $2 I've ever spent. Also, that Everest release you mentioned by Stokowski is kind of difficult to find... is there a compilation or box set you know of that those recordings appear on? You do such fantastic work. Thank you!
Dave, you were certainly speaking for me about passing through a Wagner phase. My phase peaked senior year of high school. Total obsession with the Ring. Now, I absolutely love Meistersinger, but the rest ... meh. I know that everyone turns up their nose at Forest Murmurs, but I tell ya .. Szell. One of my greatest musical memories is recovering from an appendectomy in the hospital in Missoula, Montana - age 15 - and hearing the Szell performance on the radio. Utterly transporting. So melodic, tender and affectionate, and of course stunningly played. It remains one of my all-time favorite tracks.
That's very fair, especially after appendicitis. Thanks for sharing!
Mr Hurwitz: I have just now "stumbled" across your channel. Simply marvelous. I am writing from India. Decades back (early (1980s) while i was a graduate student in the United States Mr Jim Svejda used to broadcast. Very "informative" and I ended up wasting a huge amount of hard earned money buying recordings that he recommended. Mostly garbage (about 99%). But yours are fantastic and the reviews beautifully articulated (pardon my English if it is wrong). Your views on Toscanini's interpretations of Wagner are very nice. I just heard a recording of the 3 rd Act of Meistersinger from Salzburg (1936 not the 37 version). Lyrical Wagner! Can you do a program on lyrical Wagner please? Most German Conductors conduct this music with a heavy hand. The music itself is like that and when these fellows conduct, the Sopranos and the Tenors sound as though several elephants are sitting on their backs. This should not be the case is it not? And the lyricism (case in point is the Episode between Melchior and Traubel) is singularly missing. So can you do a program on the most lyrical interpretations of Wagner Operas please?. Warmly Hari
Dear Hari,
First, your English is excellent, so thank you for taking the time to articulate your ideas so thoughtfully. I understand exactly what you are saying, although I'm not sure I would agree with you about German conductors. Bohm's Wagner, for example, is usually very fleet (his Tristan especially). Karajan's Ring was noteworthy for its chamber-like textures and lightness of voice. Still, I take you point about stressing the lyricism, and I might consider talking about the issue generally since I find that lyrical flow to be a quality missing in many modern performances. I just have so much music I want to cover first! So I can't make any promises, and I still hope that you will find many things among the videos that you will enjoy.
Best regards,
Dave
Dear Mr. Hurwitz: Yes i certainly will look forward to all your posts. Just finished listening to your take on the Furtwangler 1942 Beethoven 9th. Fantastic! On the question of Wagner and lyrical approaches to his operas may i make one point. I attended the the 1990 Met production of the Ring (James Levine conducting with James Morris as Wotan). Wotan's farewell left me in tears. I do not know how to say it so pardon me for using an example. In Indian classical music we have this idea of melody which real (sort of the Bel Canto?). Every note in this music is a melody. I think that that version (or performance) came the closest. Maestro Morris was magnificent. Many thanks. Warmly. Hari
Glad you remembered Schuricht - especially good are his Siegfried Idyll and Lohengrin Overture. Again Szell (early recordings) and Leinsdorf and Monteux...
Absolutely with you on listening to Wagner in excerpts, rather than the entire operas or Ring cycle. THANK YOU for starting out with Arturo Toscanini! His last concert is available in a luscious stereo recorded CD. Gorgeous beyond words!
David Hurwitz, hello, I'm Jesús Tovar from Venezuela, 16 years old, I'm a really admirer of Classical Genre, and I discovered your channel in quarantine, you wouldn't believe me but I'm a teen boy who had watched various versions of Wagner Music Dramas, here on TH-cam (and the only one of my class room that really enjoy listening Classical Records) let me say that I prefer to watch opera on stage instead of listening to it on record (I like go to concerts, but I don't go to Opera Stage as much I want, much less now) so I watch performances on TH-cam with subtitles (It's better in that way, I have a relative who started to like the opera when he began to see it on TV, with subtitles, fortunately, now there are theatres with very narrow screens above that shows subtitles).
I like your recommendations, even if I can't buy CD's, I like to watch uploads of classical works on TH-cam, if I want to listen to Wagner, I go to the orchestral excerpts, and I enjoy Forest Murmurs, it's calming for the morning and afternoons for me (I live in a appartment near a forest, so listening Music, or watch films i'ts much enjoyable to me when it comes to Weather) don't blame me, but Siegfried Idyll it's my favorite Wagner piece, it makes me calm and reflexional, I also like Furtwängler, Knappertsbusch with Munich Phil, Cluytens, I'm not sure about Toscanini (I prefer him for Italian Works)Tennstedt (which is better on record, than live, but it's still worth it) Celibidaiche, Simonov (same orchestra that Klemperer conducted) Barenboim, and I like Stokowski arrangements, I read that Ride of the Valkyries (which I believe, it its the only excerpt that was really written by Wagner) was going to be included in "Fantasia" , but they didn't include it, because of the cHaPlin's EVIL TWIN liked it, even Stokowski already recorded, and Walt Disney had a lot of problems being corssed out of being Anti-Semite, and of course, He wasn't, it's not necessarily to be considered as a "Wagnerian" or an "aNTiSEmITe", to enjoy Wagner orchestral excerpts, Music it's not about races (I hate call it "races", we're not dogs or plants), and there is people with jewish origins that are very great Wagner Conductors (like Solti and especially, Barenboim, you know what is conducting a 4 or 5 hours work, from MEMORY, without know how to READ MUSIC) there's probably people who enjoy The Beatles without being Rock fans.
P. D: I believe the Wagner Concepts about Total Artwork are more CINEMATOGRAPHIC than operatic, and I'm a huge Cinephile, did you remeber that Looney Tunes short called "What's Opera Doc"? It's a whole parody to Wagner dramas.
Thanks for writing and for sharing your enthusiasm with all of us!
@@hmhparis1904 Thank you for the complement, I'm 17 years old now, I'm not sure if I want to compose, or start arranging a piece, I'm starting from 0 in another conservatory, but I would like to approach conducting, I just had many ideas in my mind that would apply to my favorite composers and pieces (like Program Music, Imagination is the Key), but I'm not envy of Mozart and Mendelssohn, they are more like an inspiration ;)
Klemperer's Wagner set, by sheer coincidence, just happens to be within the reach of my outstretched hand as I watch this video. His Siegfried Idyll (and I honestly couldn't remember, since it was a while since I heard it) is one of the few by a major conductor to be for the original 13-instrument scoring.
Klemperer was doing "Walkure" when he stopped recording. I don't think he finished it. It's just too slow.
Another fine review, Dave. Thank you! May I also share 2 dramatic, colorful and compelling Wagner performances conducted by the controversial Carlos Paita. One of his recordings of Wagner (The Flying Dutchman Ov., Rienzi Ov., Die Meistersinger Prelude Act 1, and the Prelude and Liebestod from Tristan and Isolde) on the now defunct Lodia label LO-CD-770 won a Grand Prix du disque, along with his second Wagner cd with selections from Die Gotterdammerung - Siegfried's Rhine Journey, Siegfried's Death and Brunnhilde's Immolation (LO-CD-785) Paita died in Switzerland on 12/19/2015 at the age of 83. His fabulous recordings are still available, the best in my humble opinion being Paita's performances of Berlioz, Sym. Fantastique, Brahms Sym. 1, Dvorak Sym. 7, 8 and 9, and several others. Check out also his Janacek's "live" Taras Bulba on youtube.
Anyone who wants a nice serving of bleeding chunks should give Janowski's 2016 collection with the Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin a listen. Lustrous sound quality and excellent playing.
Thank God! I now no longer feel guilty about enjoying Wagner extracts. I could never face the prospect of sitting through 4 hours or however long they go on for. I think I’m with Rossini here with his view that Wagner had wonderful short periods but very long 15 minutes or
Thank you for recommending the Schuricht. I immediately looked it up on TH-cam. That trumpet is awesome. One can already hear it coming a bit in the Rhine Journey, but he really lets it rip in the Funeral March (I mean, Music).
Love the Siegfried Idyll story. Very naughty... :)
That was fun! I agree with forgetting about the aspirated T in Melot and just calling him Merlot, after the grape. I just want to make a point that some Wagner chunks bleed more than others--and that does make a difference, at least to me. Most preludes stand alone quite well, with seamless endings provided by Wagner himself. (The pairing of the Tristan Prelude and Liebestod actually goes well beyond that.) But I think most of the Ring excerpts tend to be somewhat clumsy, especially with the transcriptions of vocal lines--like a trombone standing in for Wotan summoning Loge in the Magic Fire Music. I actually like Edo DeWaart's Tristan "Orchestral Passion," not because it's well played, but simply because it has so much more of the music that you never hear outside the full opera--such as Tristan's 3rd Act music, which is fabulous and is never encountered in concert, as far as I know. I like that it's all wrapped up as a sort of tone poem, with minimal bleeding.
That all makes sense to me. I actually enjoy many of the symphonic "syntheses" also.
Thank you, Mr. Hurwitz! Glad to know Klemperer made it to your finals! May I give a suggestion for a future video? I'd love to know your recommendations and insights about Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings.
Thank you! So much to do! I love the Tchaikovsky serenade. Which are your favorites?
@@DavesClassicalGuide About Serenade. I like the most -it is almost impossible to find, but it's very best: Martynov with St. Petersburg SO. Next there are many: Marriner (Decca), Karajan, Slatkin; Ormandy also despite he cut some notes! It's all here: en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Serenade_for_String_Orchestra:_Recordings
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well, I can't name a favorite yet because I haven't done all the research I should and would normally do if I wasn't dealing with an awful lot of work (being a music teacher means increased workload in this time of the year, especially during a pandemic...). If I was pressed to guess my own preference (whatever this may mean) I suppose my bet would be some performance from the good old Russian tradition in terms of style, but I haven't found such a performance that really gets me. I listened to Mravinsky (expecting miracles, judging from his 4th-6th symphonies) and was disappointed by uncomfortable sound and tone. Kondrashin seemed a bit micro-managed in the dynamics department (which sometimes can be thrilling in certain pieces but somehow didn't make it for me here). Also listened to Bashmet and wasn't moved. Karajan sounds uninteresting to me, exceedingly lush, paying the price of blurred contours and missing some of the lightness of it all. I checked Mengelberg, then I found the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra which is good. HOWEVER (😁) I find myself always returning to one of the first I stumbled across, which is the surprisingly wonderful Ormandy/Philadelphia on Sony Essential Classics, which I like because it's spirited, never dragging and texturally clear. And let's face it, this has GOT to have portamenti as they do, there's 's such a vocal warm quality in all the melodies... I just would love to try other suggestions because something tells me I will find a good surprise sometime, like a more full-bodied ensemble as well-rehearsed like that one. For example I would love to hear the string delight that I hear in Ruud's recording of Grieg's Holberg Suite with Bergen Phil (I've been addicted to that record!), which is lush, yes, but still crystal-clear and lively. Anyway, let's not be too spoilt (or maybe we should!). So Ormandy's doing the job greatly, hoping not to get taken off from his post by some newcomer or some neglected veteran. Sorry, this is a long commentary, but we love talking about these stuff, isn't it? :)
@@peterpetrovic3423I don't know it but I will check it out. Thanks for coming and suggesting.
Karajan BPO for Serenade for Strings.
Dave, plus Anna Russell for the Ring. What more does any sane entity need. Grazie Mille
What do you think of Boult's double cd for EMI - which I think is pretty good.
HI Dave.
First and foremost, I want to thank you for this series as I have learnt many things from you - and even when I disagree, it requires thought on my part.
This Wagner instalment, however, is not you at your best. Here’s hoping that you regain your customary ever-so-light touch and fun.
Best wishes, Bernard
As I said before, you can't win 'em all, and the problem with humor is that some will take it the right way and some will not--I was not taking anyone to task for loving Wagner. All I suggested was that it was OK to listen critically and that you don't have to take in all of it without question if you don't want to. I was criticizing the "Wagner cult" based on my own experience over the years. Perhaps I did it badly, but I think the intent was clear and reasonable--and, I think, sort of Wagnerian given your reaction and that of others to it! Interesting...
"If you're not over your Wagner phase, you need help!" -- it must take a closed or very tired mind to not recognise this as a joke.
I enjoy the humor! I hope you'll continue making these videos after the pandemic is over (ten years or so from now)!
I dare to suggest that some of the comments inadvertently prove the point of your wonderful video! Thank you! I agree that Klemperer was a great Wagner conductor. The Szell bleeding chunks disc is my all time favorite. I love the spot in "Ride" where he allows the trumpet to do the Valkyrie battle cry! Priceless! I have a New York Philharmonic/Mehta disc of excerpts that I also enjoy.
As a parting shot...agreed that Wagner did write grand opera while damning the French. This might explain his extreme disdain for Meyerbeer.
I will now seek the Stokowski and French discs post haste. Thanks again!
Well, there are always folks who can't take a joke, especially Wagnerians. Have a great time!
Hi Gray - hope you are well and still avoiding Norrington's Bruckner! Best wishes, B
Hello! Most assuredly! Norrington and Venzago! I didn't think anyone could murder Bruckner more efficiently than Norrington, then I heard Venzago!
All well here...all things considered. Hope you are fat and happy.
David, (if I may be so informal!) This was an illuminating and humorous brodcast. Really enjoyable. The Stokowski disc is a - well - black swan, I suppose. I love it - and, like you, for all the 'wrong reasons!'
Informality is the name of the game around here. Glad you enjoyed the video.
Thank you very much sir. I don't expect you to attend to each Wagner opera. So it's not just Solti or Karajan, it's about these earlier guys you mentioned + Tennstedt. And thanks for the heads up on Klemperer's Dutchman.
(On 14th October 1988 I saw Sir Charles Mackerras do a fantastic Mastersingers at Sydney Opera House. I noticed you like Mackerras, me too since that night.)
Bravo, David, my man!
Another very enjoyable and informative post! I am catching up on your past...
It may have been pointed out before here, but you have Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky on your side in the value of playing Wagner without the whole music drama context. He made the point in a letter of how ridiculous HE found the wailing Valkyries etc. during the actual opera, but what a glorious piece of pure instrumental excitement the "ride" was on the orchestra alone (he actually considered this proof that Wagner was more symphonist than musical drama genius, which some of us who have had to sit through 5 hours of the 'show' might heartily agree with). As for playing them 'philosophically', I think it was the critic Ernest Newman who first pointed out that the volumes of literature and critical/philosophical tomes Wagner was 'unkind enough to bequeath to us' had little to do with the actual music itself. The music was composed by the musical artist, who knew his Beethoven, Berlioz, Mendelssohn, Spontini, etc., well. And despite his inherent feelings of superiority over most of them, it certainly gave him a sound grounding in what pure sound and feeling can accomplish below (in his view) the voices expressing his all important and paramount libretto/poem. Thank you again David...
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing this.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks Dave; sorry I was so long posted! And, I had the same reaction to Tristan until I saw it too.
But I am still reminded of one of the greatest 'bon mot'/critical putdowns of music history, one I am sure you know well, but I quote here for the sake of the unwary: "The prelude to Tristan und Isolde reminds us of one of the old Italian paintings of a martyr whose intestines are slowly unwound from his body on to a reel.
(Eduard Hanslick, German Bohemian music critic, on Wagner's opera Tristan und Isolde, June 1868)
And, in terms of cinematic use, let's not forget the Nazis chasing the Blues Brothers in their little Ford Pinto to the "Ride of the Valkyries," culminating in the car plummeting into asphalt from a great height. Fine performance by Pittsburgh under Steinberg!
I'm a fan of the channel, love your opinions, and often concur. Here, I do feel the need to stand up for Maazel's "Ring Without Words" with Berlin. My sense is that maybe in the context of "best Wagner orchestral works" you did not think the ideal selection was to have a disc with only Ring pieces to the exclusion of everything else. From that standpoint, I would agree in theory. Of course if I was putting together the ideal Wagner disc I would want Tristan, Flying Dutchman Overture, etc., etc. Yet, in practice, people I knew just loved the Maazel disc as it was. Maazel's work is fantastic and powerful and sounds great like most stuff on Telarc. One of the better sounding Telarc discs I would even say. For the "fan favorite" parts like Ride and Funeral, they just nail it. Anecdotally, this is one of the most popular discs with people who aren't classical music junkies. Regular people love Maazel's disc. I would go to normal people's houses with a little carrier of discs and that was an essential carry since it was requested so often. Folks that might normally listen to Snoop Dog or NIN or Iron Maiden would say, "Hey, put that one Wagner disc on," and it was the Maazel they were asking for.
I love that disc too. I was saving it for another talk. Stay tuned!
In the wake of its Steinberg/Pittsburg Beethoven Symphonies reissue, perhaps DG will consider CD reissue of the conductor and orchestra 's two Wagner L.P.s also originally on Command. One of the L.P.s was devoted to The Ring, with the usual suspects.
Stokowski 's RCA recording of Ride of the Valkyries included a patch of sopranos and mezzo-sopranos including Martina Arroyo and Shirley Verrett. I enjoy it almost as much as the deliriously vulgar Szell.
The Klemperer two-disc set is hard to beat. I like All of those Stokowski 'synthesis' arrangements. Remember those synthesis recordings Edo DeWaart did, with the funky, decadent looking covers? . . . those are kind of fun. Someone other than 'Stoki' arranged them. One "Ring" collection I thought was a bit of a sleeper, was the one Donold Runnicles did in Dresden (Teldec). I like that one a lot. However, some strange label has done a two-disc "Ring Symphony" - from Duisberg, I believe - that INCLUDES the Prelude to the Third Act of "Siegfried". In my opinion, all those "Ring" compilations should include It (Prelude to Act Three of "Siegfried"). You might not agree with this, David, but I wish more people would record Wagner's early symphony. It's really not too awful at all. As people get older, they're supposed to like Wagner less. As usual, I'm doing a counter-march to the norm.
Please. Do an open mic night at a comedy club.
Getting over a Wagner phase is one thing. Getting over a Kirsten Flagstad phase is another.
My Wagner phase has lasted 60 years. I never want to get over it.
A couple more favourites that I'd add to your list: Boult/EMI (3 discs, some of it mighty impressive), and two single CDs of Overtures and Preludes: Jochum/Bavarian Radio SO (in the new Eloquence Jochum Philips box), Böhm/Vienna PO (DG). It would be nice if you did the Siegfried-Idyll one of these days (I know it's on some of the 'bleeding chunks' discs, but well worth talking about on its own).
I recently picked up a 2cd set of Boult on EMI with NPO, LSO and LPO on a three sets for a quid deal from a charity shop.
Would love David to do his Top 10 Worst Forrest Murmurs=with excerpts.
Szell is my favorite Ring orchestral excerpts disc. I also like Runnicles and Staatskapelle Dresden on Teldec - powerful playing with excellent, modern sound.
Another composer whose operatic music really benefits from arrangements in orchestral suites is Leos Janacek. Peter Breiner and the New Zealand SO on Naxos cover six operas on 3 CDs; check 'em out.
I like the 'transcription' CDs by Maazel, de Waart and the same music as de Waart by Neeme Jarvi with the Royal Scots (I'll call then the Scots Royals from now) at much faster speeds. Too fast really, but good still and worth hearing as you only truly know what's fast, slow or indeed anything enough when you know what's more than enough.
Likewise I'm a huge fan of old Stoki; I have had most of the big box sets (RCA, EMI, CBS, Decca) at some point and just love what he does with music. His Houston SO Parsifal extracts LP that cost me £1 in '82 (Irish currency pre-euro, called the punt because it rhymes with bank manager) was one of the seminal moments in making me a classics -and Wagner- nut.
I came to classical music from the heavy end.
Just FYI, I have already made a video about the Breiner arrangements and reviewed them all separately on ClassicsToday.com, and the Stoki Wagner disc has turned up more than once too.
Thanks David. I've just started listening to Wagner and found this post helpful. Out of interest, how many hours a day on average, do you listen to music?
I really don't think that way. I just listen when I can!
Yes, the Stokowski is great fun! I also like his „Parsifal“.
What do you think about Maazel‘s „Ring without words“? In concert, it was really entertaining, but the recording (Telarc, I think) disappointed me, because of it‘s seriousness.
Talk forthcoming!
Usually depends on which works from which operas I want to hear but Klemperer is the one I turn to a lot because there is a bunch a different stuff on those discs. Love the Szell Ring excerpts. Have Walter, Toscanini and Kempe as well as a many others. Definitely don't need to listen to full opera recordings. Tristan & Lohengrin especially. I do still love to hear the full Ring Cycle though.
I love the Siefried Idyll and forest murmurs. They give the ears a welcome break during complete performances
The Siegried Idyll is a stand-alone work that is not performed in the context of any of the operas.
@@DavesClassicalGuide The idyll , right. Forrest murmers, Siegfried, forrest bird,all that stuff...break from dragon music. Only time in Siegfried I can get any sleep
Thanks David. Really liked the talk. However, missing Celibidache's Wagner, albeit slow. Siegfried Idyll comes to 24 minutes!
And Glenn Gould was ever slower, I think...
@@DavesClassicalGuideConversely, Boult clocks in at just 16 minutes and Paray beats him to the finish line at 15 minutes!I recall someone stating that Wagner mentioned the ideal duration of the piece`s timing to be around those two speeds.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Is that even possible?!
@@artistinbeziers7916 Anything is possible.
The Entry to Valhalla by Szell is the Greatest!
This was like Anna Russell with "bleeding chunks"
I listened to the Schuricht and the PCO do the funeral music and it IS something else although the intonation is so bad it's surprising that Schuricht didn't stop the recording and ask the oboe player to give another A
I love the Paris trumpet with vibrato rendition!
Hello David!
I have discovered your channel recently and I enjoy it very much!
As far as Wagner's orchestral music, your video confirmed my appreciation for Klemperer's performances and reminded me that somewhere on my shelves lies forgotten, Simonov's cd :)
What's your opinion about Solti? He has made recordings both with Chicago and Vienna. I own them but it's really a long time since I listened to them.
Solti--great for the complete operas, but his excerpts are oddly variable.
I was listening to the RCA remake of the Magic Fire. That was pretty hot as well!!!
Great selections. Some of the Kempe’s with the VPO sounds astonishing for the vintage.
Some others I like are Bernstein’s on Sony, Mehta’s with the New York Phil, Haitink on Philips, Boult’s on EMI, and I still have a soft spot for Kubelik’s on DG. And even though it races through the whole Ring, that Maazel synthesis is fun with Berlin.
Well done, many things I'd agree with.
Pronunciation-wise a hoot... Liebestod is pronounced /liebestoad/ , not /liebestodd/, and Cluytens should be /kloitnz/, not
/klweetañz/.
Thank you. I think you meant Liebesfrog, not Liebestoad.
I don't listen to much opera (Handel, Mozart and Pucci), but I once heard a concert performance of the last two acts of Siegfried by the Chicago Symphony under Solti (don't remember the soloists), and it was tremendous. Does anyone think that Wagner is more tolerable in concert than stage performance?
It works either way for me, but as I noted, the operas really do stage well. They are good theater, although from recordings alone you might not think so at first.
Makes sense, since Wagner composed for orchestra with voices added as percussion. Lovers of symphony love Wagner more than opera lovers
I use to have Szell"s wonderful recording. Too bad there are no Mahler recordings...
Gong, gong, gong. (This is allowed by David for me to hit t he gong behind him three times when I enjoy his talk)
I thought it meant I would get my head chopped off as in Turandot!
David Hurwitz Ha ha ha.....
Played the Parsifal music on both the Klemperer and Stokowski recordings. Stokowski got much better sound. Need to check if the Klemperer was recorded in Kingsway Hall, and who the engineers were. The Christopher’s Bishop and Parker usually did reliably good recordings.
...and honorable mentioning to Stokowskis RCA release with Ring chunks and one of the best preludes to act three of Tristan ever comitted to disc. As for the Siegfried (yawnn) Idyll true that only Walter makes it worthwhile listening ...on the rehearsal outtakes because of his comments and instructions the musicians.
I partially agree on your views regarding purely orchestral bits from Wagner. Most of them are great on their own indeed but in the case of Isoldes Liebestod I always feeel like the solely orchestral versions miss something as much as I love them since it’s both an orchestral and vocal climax.
That's very reasonable.
I have been greatly enjoying a lot of your talks. I fully agree that Wagner is best heard in the "bleeding chunks" rather than the whole operas -- and I have sat through "The Ring" and "Tristan." But I have a question about something. I first heard "Ring" excepts done on a recording by William Steinberg and the Pittsburgh Symphony, and he did a version of "Dawn and Siegfried's Rhine Journey" that is different from any other that I've heard -- and one that to my ears makes the most musical sense. It differs from the way it is in the opera as well. I think Steinberg arranged it himself, but I don't know. Do you know if there different versions of that excerpt that conductors make or if there is one that Wagner himself made?
There are many different versions of that excerpt.
Was it not Thomas Mann who said that Wagner was a young mans passion.And something you should have gotten over by middle age.Which is why he could not understand Richard Strauss.Who was just as passionate about Wagner in his 20s as he was in his 80s....Anyhow, great vid Mr Hurwitz and i agree with you, the Stokowski CD is wonderful.And i will check out the others too.As you have wetted my appetite for more top quality bleeding chunks.
I never heard that. I’ve read everything I could get my hands on re Mann. I would love to be able to ask him why there was no Wagner in Castorp’s musical selections in the Magic Mountain.
Audio quality aside, what do you think of the Karl Muck recordings?
You can't set "audio quality aside." If large swathes of orchestral texture are simply missing, balances skewed and dynamics compressed, just what are you talking about? Tempo? I don't think there is anything that Muck (or anyone else from the same period) does that you can't hear done just as well or better in superior sound. I don't deny the historical interest of such recordings, but they are only listenable because we know how the music ought to sound and that experience allows us to fill in some of what's missing.
David Hurwitz I was thinking of the Muck recordings primarily in the light of historical interest, in the same category of recordings by Eibenschutz, Fanny Davies, Carl Friedburg, Joachim, or Auer. Even when there are issues of balance, dynamics, and texture, it’s very interesting to hear the use of rubato in early 20th century interpretation, coupled with original features of Bayreuth (I.e. the Parsifal bells), and the still tangible influence of Cosima on performances and the live Bayreuth performances.
Thanks for that fun ramble through the Wagner swamp, David. You know, I’ll give Szell another go after hearing your recommendation. His double disc on CBS, which was basically the two CDs you mentioned, was my first Wagner collection. I have never really gotten into it. They just feel a tad sterile to me. I feel that with a lot of Szell, although when I like him I really like him.
However, I then got Karajan’s EMI GROTC disc of Wagner orchestral music and, suddenly, it was all there for me to enjoy. I especially love the wildness of The Flying Dutchman Overture. Did you leave out the Karajan disc because he’s a path too well trodden or because you don’t rate him at all in this music? I seem to remember Classics Today giving that disc a big thumbs-up.
Thanks for the sleepers, too. I think I’ll try out Simonov, next, and Kempe.
By the way, I also have a fondness for Henk de Vlieger’s wonderful ‘hatchet job’ of The Ring, as conducted by Jarvi, although he does rush things sometimes. It’s also the RSNO, which I have a particular fondness for because it’s my home orchestra and was the band that introduced me to live classical music. My first ever exposure to live orchestral music was a Schoenberg orchestration of Brahms’ Piano Quintet, no less. Like, wow!
Anyhow, cheers the noo!
PS I’m totally with you re Forest Murmurs and particularly the Siegfried Idyll. Cloying and self-satisfied corn syrup. It’s like cough medicine, but without the medicine.
The Karajan is great--I just didn't mention it because I already had so many, and I have to draw the line somewhere, but certainly it belongs with the best.
The paradox of Tristan working so well onstage despite its lack of action struck a chord with me. I think the ending of Act I (by far the most boring act) becomes truly exciting, with the sailors' singing and the imminent docking of the ship putting the rush on the lovers to drink the potion. Watching the dazed pair disembark and approach the waiting King Marke gave me chills when I saw it years ago. It's a mistake when a production concocts some "more imaginative" stage action that discards that face-to-face encounter.
Any good modern performances?
Wagner is not as bad as sounds.
I never liked Siegfried Idyll. I wish my Haitink's Wagner orchestral music CD contained Tanhauser Overture instead of Siegfried Idyll.
I must be unique in not having gone through a Wagner phase.
Simon Vaughan I went through a Wagner phase when I was a teenager (a few decades ago). It came to a swift end when, after becoming familiar with the usual excerpts, I tried to listen to the complete operas.
@@brithgob1620 An early exposure to Janáček's terseness may have inoculated me against Wagner!
There's still time!
@@philipadams5386 I do like the Wesendonck Lieder, so if I work on my stamina I am sure I could appreciate the operas.
I usually enjoy your reviews but you lost me on this one. If you want to pan Wagner (yeah, apparently not a very nice person), just come out and say it rather than make oblique remarks and then crazy stories about the premier of Siegfried Idyll.
Can't win 'em all. Looks like some folks got what I was after, and others didn't. That's not too surprising. There's always next time.
Would be interested in your thoughts on a somewhat related point. I've sometimes pondered whether to avoid music by composers that I suspect I might have strongly disliked if I'd known them personally, Wagner being an obvious candidate. I greatly enjoyed your recent review on Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition, which I've been playing a lot lately. But I also encountered a podcast ("Sticky Notes" - perhaps you are familiar with them?) claiming that Mussorgsky was antisemitic and that the music associated with Jewish portraits is sarcastic/insulting. This was news to me - I never imagined it listening to the music, and (so far) it hasn't affected my enjoyment of the piece. Anyway, best wishes to you and keep the reviews coming. More Sibelius please!
Just do a google search for "Beethoven's nephew"...
Hilarious humour😂
So you're not into music drama
Yes, actually, I am. I just don't think you need to be a cult member to enjoy it.