AR15/M16 Pencil Barrel Drift At 300m: How Bad?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- In which Bloke takes his 9 million series real Colt M16A1 (not an AR15, or a build kit or a repro) at 300m with a Brownells Retro 4x carry handle scope and puts 30 reasonably quick rounds through the barrel to see if there's any worrying drift due to imperfect stress relief in the barrel. What happens with this particular pencil barrel?
Kind of a supplement to this @InrangeTv video: • WWSD: Pencil barrel St...
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Finally somebody on TH-cam shooting an actual group. Not the usual 3 shot group and discounting the flyer.
9 hole reviews is similar good
Check out 9 hole reviews
This, I do 10 shot groups and allow one flyer
That one dislike is from the Marine Commandant who requested the M16A2
That last single-loaded shot went rather beautiful, one has to say :)
Indeed and even after he broke his firing position..... practice is the key
@@stevenlee798 I grew up with a break action air rifle (and the occasional few shots with a musket 😁) and have very little experience with semi-autos so as a result I'm better at getting into position than holding it.
@@TheColonelSponsz I did the same with a gamo 177 slug gun as we call them. My only experience with semi auto was the f88 steyr. We can't own what bloke owns here😭
The rifle performed and shot with the accuracy it was designed to have. If you were on the receiving end, you’d be sufficiently perforated.
Quite right.
Meh. Realistically it was designed to be a lot more accurate than that pencil barrel is capable of, that's what we saw with the stringing. Sure it won't throw off your hits (while using semi auto slow fire at least) but this was originally designed to be a 500 yard accurate gun. It's totally possible that after 60 rounds fired (which is totally not unrealistic to fire during a battle) the stringing would get to the point where the rifle isn't capable of hitting a target at that range. But then again the person firing 60 rounds fast probably isn't going to suddenly need to make a 500 yard shot either.
I got a 16" Pencil Barrel carbine to build my little sister's AR. At the time, it was something of a novelty. But It was a good choice because the slightly lighter overall build makes it easier rifle for her to handle. Unfoirtunately, finding another to build a retro carbine with an A1 upper has proven difficult.
The last time I looked, 3.5 MOA was and remains "Mil Spec" acceptance for general service rifles, pretty much globally. Anything tighter is good enough and anything worse becomes "the fish John West rejects.
This is purely practical. On the two-way rifle range, a centre-mass hold will administer appropriate "attitude adjustment" out to realistic visual distance, (300-400 yards.
The "pencil" barrel with a 1:12" twist WILL stabilize the 55gn M-193 bullet very well. As the US AMTU demonstrated back in the late 1960s / early 1970s, it will also stabilize the heavier, (but NOT longer), very precisely made, 63gn Sierra spire point flat-based) bullet. Their experiments with "enhanced performance" have left quite a legacy.
The other bullet that also performs magnificently in a bog-standard 1:12" "standard" AR-15 barrel is the old (but still listed) Hornady 60gn FB HP job.
Tucked away in a folder somewhere here, is a target shot with these bullets from an "out of the box" Colt SP-1 fitted with an early Leupold 2-7 scope.
Fired at 100 yards, from a concrete bench on a still day, using a VERY "budget" rest, it runs to just under 0.7 inches.
The same rifle would put Korean (PMC) M-193 ball into about 2.5 inches using a similar set-up.
Here in Oz, all we have left are a few photos and the memories.
Never forget; never forgive.
I say this having a 1:7 Twist 20" Heavy profile barrel, but I like that you bring up the slower twist rates of the older era guns. Anymore, finding a modern barrel with anything slower than a 1:9 rate is fairly uncommon from most barrel manufacturers. One thing I always disliked about the faster rate twists was the increased spin induced drift at long range on the lighter 55-62gr rounds. It's not something that I think most people would notice, but I do. I mainly fire 69-90gr hand loads out of my rifle, as I built it specifically for that. It absolutely loves the Mk262 Mod 1 ammo. I feel sorry for you Aussies for having to give up your right to own those weapons. It's been a lesson for us Americans to keep fighting.
Nice shooting. I was issued an M16A1 when I was in the Marine Corps in the 1970's, very similar to that one. We qualified at 200, 300 and 500 yards. You would have qualified with no issues.
Lucky B'stard I'd love a WWSD 2020 but as I live in the UK..........
And us in Canada want one too. Just had our AR platform banned a year and a half ago.
Have you any plans on doing a video, comparing the stgw90 to the M16 using the circular error probable method? Maybe going thru the Chap and your semi auto collection and see which lands where? Maybe have a leaderboard like they had in top gear?
No need to apologize for the speed of the shots. I have been to public ranges here in the USA that had requirements of 2 seconds and 3 seconds between shots, aka "no rapid fire". Considering that so many folks here aren't "students of firearms shooting", it's likely a prudent move intended to keep insurance claims down.
As of quoted "Close enough for government work?"
Putting an FDE PMag in a old beauty such as that should be a punishable offense.
Thanks for the video, Bloke.
Even worse, it's one of the German copies by Oberland Arms! :D XD
None of my current AR rifles have the longer recoil spring system that goes with the fixed stocks. Watching you fire that fixed stock I can hear the “sproing” sound in my head each time you pull the trigger. Your channel content is great, please keep up the good work.
You mean that clackly sound right after the gunshot? At first I thought that it was the trigger reset. Also, the camera from that angle picks up what I call "the AR hiss", which is the sound of the gases venting off from the bolt carrier group. When the Bloke fired other 5.56 rifles (SA-80, SG-540, SAC), they didn't hiss.
@@Xerxes1688 both can be heard if you listen, the spring is right after the shot every time but last. Its the "rattling" noise as best I can describe by word. You'll notice its missing on the last round in the mag because the bolt hold open keeps the spring compressed. That would be your "ar hiss", captured springs will stop that.
My next KP15 polymer lower.... i'm building the musket. I want a handy light 20"
My 16" is fantastic.
I love that beauty, Bloke. You make me lust for aperture sights and triangle handguards.
Given that your rate of fire was close to what the US military considers 'rapid fire' (or did when the M16 was issued), your rifle performed exactly as designed. For competition, consider a 'crutch mount' that fastens to the carry handle, but mounts an optic forward of the handle, at eye level.
Having been issued an M16A1 in the late '70s, that is my dream AR!
Good shooting
It wasn't very clear in the vid. Do you like it?
Hmm, the jury is out on that.....
Presuming you don't transition that scope by the way we do for stargazing. Look at star (target) bring binoculars up to eye not other war around. You probably know that but hey this is for the algorithm really
Huh, never thought of it like that! Then again I'm mostly shooting air rifles/airsoft than real steel but will have to try this out next time I'm plinking, cheers!
@@CHPMP5 It's a bugger trying to find a star with hand held hi-powered binos with narrow field of view, it makes it easyer.
@@dave_h_8742 You might find an astronomical telescope has a sighting telescope mounted parallel to the working 'scope or you would be all over the night sky trying to observe the dot of interest.
Good video overall and it did demonstrate some upwards drift. Even heavier barrel profiles will start to exhibit the same thing at some point, and they don't have the advantage of a faster cool down like the thin ones have. My AR has a heavier 20 inch stainless steel "DMR" barrel profile (not quite a bull barrel, but a solid .936" to the block, and .750" to the muzzle threads), and even after 50-60 rounds on it I can track a small POI shift with it at about the same rate of fire as what you demonstrated here, but I then have to wait much longer for a cool down. Mag dumps are not about accurate shooting anyway, and are really used for suppressing fire, so arguing POI shift from a high rate of fire is kind of moot anyway.
I had not realised he did his mag dump other than to heat up his entire gun. Must have another look to see what he drew his conclusions from.
We’re still waiting for the AR15 mad minute Bloke
120 rounds Id wager
"Binden Aiming Concept" i.e. both eyes open works a lot better with the wider field-of-view of an ACOG.
That was not enough to care.
Just from my experience with pencil barrel M16s and my own SP1s, the groups drift low-right for me as the barrel heats up. That could just be me and not the guns. A wee bit of trigger fatigue. Never had groups that opened up as wide as I've seen on other TH-cam videos.
Isn't wonderful that the temps required for modern nitriding operations also happen to take steel parts up to the temps necessary for stress relieving & normalization? It's almost like the process was *intended* for making more long-lasting & accurate rifle barrels! Ya gotta luv it!
From the cloud hanging about the muzzle with each shot, it seems to have been a calm day.
The trees in the background would seem to agree.
Can you get yourself a Trijicon 1-4 or 1-6 Accupoint for your WWSD? They are by far my favorite scope for general purpose AR shooting. Good for 1-300 yards in 5.56. Ian and Karl gave it high praise for WWSD2017 when considering optics.
The 1-4 plus a lightweight mount weights 500g. (lighter than most red dot plus magnifier setups)
No batteries (tritium and fiber optic powered)
Zero at 200 and dial up 2.5-3MOA or so for 300 yard zero (or just zero at 300 and learn your hold overs)
1x has a massive eyebox and eye relief... 90% as good as a red dot
red triangle is crystal clear versus if you have any astigmitism
even with no tritium or sunlight you still get a black triangle and post tip (in fact precision / zero I intentionally turn the fiber optic off to shoot with the chevron tip)
Swiss got third pin AR-15. Me cannot get :(
I had 2 different SP1, one drifted at 100m and the other didn’t move a bit even after 30 shots…it really depends on what you have. It was with the 3x Colt scope.
the one that drifts, maybe you should remove the barrel, clean it up and put the barrel on with correct tension.
First qualed in the Marines with an M16A1 and an 1911A1.
First shot dropped way low. That happens.
Help me. That's common? Is there a reason? Do I live with it or fix it?
A P-Mag in a retro boi???? Shame on you... 🤢🤢🤢
a TAN pmag at that!
How does this compare to a Swiss Sturmgewehr 90?
You’ve been teasing the new Chinese Type 56-2 and then we get a M16A1 video. BLUE BALLED!!!!!!!
May the person who started the heavy barrel nonsense be doomed to carry it back and forth across hell for all eternity
I own a 20 inch "DMR" (heavy-ish) profile rifle and a 16" Pencil profile. The weight difference between them, not including optics, is just a hair over 2lbs, which is basically the difference in the barrels. Roughly 6lbs vs 8lbs/ It's honestly not really that much of a difference when carrying it. The real difference is when trying to hold it up for a shot for any real length of time, lol.
I'm looking forward to seeing your review of the WWSD rifle when you get it.
Good shooting man. Shooting a 3.5 MOA group at 300 meters with fairly rapid fire is no small feat. How does the rifle shoot doing slow fire?
Not much better. That is slow fire in US matches. Mike was getting mirage which is the point that I set the gun on the rack to cool with the breech open while I shoot other guns.
@@dbmail545 no its not... CMP match slowfire is 10 shots in 10 minutes. rapidfire is 10 shots in 70 seconds with a reload and getting into position from standing
That setup with that ammo will shoot into about 2 MOA at 300m if I don't screw up.
I think your test is more valid than InRanges. Karl routinely fails to understand the realities of rifle usage in combat.
Karl routinely fails to understand reality
NTCH creates a repeatable reference point and improves cheek weld.
It's presented in the training materials as a technique for n00bs who have difficulty doing that anyway, and yet in the lore has become a universal thing that Must Be Done.
I'm intrigued about the 'American' eye relief. Is there any practical reason for this, or was it just a trend that took hold due to narrow tubes?
i believe it's due to the ACOG with it's short eye relief
@@rklkify possibly, but this is a pure optical scope.
I'm wondering if there is something else there or it is just a feature of the M16/AR? Or something else.
4x on a bolt gun with extra long eye relief is not a new concept (also an American concept if I'm not mistaken).
@@paulgrimmond6296 The optic is a restarted production from Brσωnєℓℓs of something from the 70's So, it's not a modern optic. Additionally. it's affixed to a hole in the carrying handle, so there is absolutely no choice about where to place it. (YT deleted my last 3 comments - re-adding with "edits".)
@@SerinaDeMadrigal That does make alot of sense for the original iron sights on the rifle.
I'm not totally sure if it holds true if you mount off the carry handle?
Seems more of a chin weld than a cheek weld, but I think I understand the genisis you have explained.
@@SerinaDeMadrigal exactly. Thats what we were taught and it worked well
Thank you for sharing another great video
Thank you for the comments on the scope. I had one of the first batch but I sold it over 20 years ago. One of the the ones I let get away.
subbed based channel.
damn good shooting at 300
Is that a 1/12" or 1/9" twist rifling on that gun?
Since it's an original 70s to 80s production, it will be 1/12. 1/9 didnt become common until the late 90s/early 2000s with the non-Colt commercial production. Colt was always either 1/12, or 1/7, 1/9 was used because it played better with a wider variety of bullet weights and had been common on bolt action 22 centerfire rifles of the era.
What's it like getting Browells stuff in Europe?
There’s an outlet in most countries.
Did he say GGG fidy five?
Excellent video! and a beautiful rifle by the way, where was yours surplused from? its very clean
Algorithm.
Is the auto sear missing? Looks like that hole exists but is empty.
Yes, it's been taken out.
Cool
My dream gun would be a heavy barrel profile A1 designated for precision shooting, like the Colt 655 special high profile rifle.
You could slap SP1 triangle handguards on a Colt HBAR target rifle. Would have A2 sights though.
Can't wait for the new videos from Finland.
If I could do what you do... Good job!
Bloke and Chap always top shelf Liquor. And your rifle range is the best I've seen. 30 hits bad guy done. I use Lithuanian GGG in my JRA BM-59 good stuff. Beautiful Ar Bloke, have to love Switzerland 🇨🇭 Thanks Bloke 😊
Got my WWSD2020 it's pretty interesting coming from never holding an AR variant before.
The trigger reset is so loud like the ping of a Garand empty clip the enemy would locate your position and after counting clicks would over run you position. 🙂
would like to have more videos from you on the M16
There's quite a few already, and more coming up!
@@BlokeontheRange GREAT...I carried a M16 for 22 years...
I wouldn't complain at that. I love that range system.
love windowed tan pmag gen3s. marine food!
Well done. Agree with your conclusion.
Lovely video. Seems to prove your point nicely.
I think the rifle acquitted itself very well, and nice shooting on your part
That's the noisiest trigger reset I've ever heard!
Tell tale signof a GI spec M16/AR15 trigger
My AK trigger resets are pretty noisy too...
Would a free floated pencil barrel perform better? I’m running a Faxon pencil barrel on one of my AR15s. Thought about trying their gunner series. Great video as always
Yes, but only marginally.
I wander if the POI drift would be much less if he shot it with iron sights as originally intended because the front sight would move in the same direction that barrel would move.
If the FSB moved in the same direction as the muzzle, the shift in POI would be GREATER than with a receiver mounted optic. Shift the rear right to shift POI right. Shift the front to the left to shift POI right.
@@dbmail545 You're thinking of front sight adjustment direction when the barrel is stationary. But when the barrel move, it move the front sight in the same direction, keeping the front sight and the POI in alignment, generally that is.
@@Oldhogleg well we shall just have to agree to disagree. In fact I first noticed POI shift in a .223 Mini-14 that shifted 10moa with irons the 2nd 20 round magazine.
@@dbmail545 oldhogleg is correct, if the FSB is moving with your barrel your aiming would cause the POI to shift back in the "correct direction", however it likely wont be "perfectly correct" but its better than, say, a front sight mounted on a handguard. Imagine if you are aiming a perfectly sighted weapon on target, someone came along and bent your barrel down 10 degrees. if you fire your bullet hits the dirt, but the front sight moved way low in your sight picture (with the barrel) so you must bring the front of the gun up to see the sight again, raising your POI to hopefully not "dirt shooting low".
👍 für den Algorithmus
Minute of Zombie head?
That’s good shooting at 300m.
"Fiddy five grain" 😄
Great video
The Pencil barrels made today are far better than the old ones. You could always try putting on a new one for more shot consistency if the original isn't satisfactory.
I don't know, for 300 meters, that shot grouping is pretty darn good given the rifle in question. A modern barrel may do a little better, but you would also be surprised what might happen if he simply shot another 30 round group with some BTHP Match ammo.
@@OddBallPerformance Well in my defense i posted the comment at the beginning of the video. But if that's what a group from an original pencil barrel would be like, then i think the wondering zero thing is a bit overexaggerated. At least it is if you're taking careful aimed shots at a combatant at 300 meters away. If you do a freakin mag dump followed by another, THEN try to hit accurately at that distance, then it may be way different. But does that sound like a very likely scenario in combat? It doesn't to me.
You desperately need some original steel mags
Except the original mags were aluminium...
I thought it counted 18 or 19 twice.
Another nice video
It didn't. The shot you heard was from the next guy down. I thought the same thing, so I went back and rewatched it.
Sehr gut geschossen.
👍 good nuff
News flash! Hot rifle barrels affects a rifles accuracy.
Symptoms may include,
Increase in group size
Changing or wandering zero
Heat haze or mirage from hot barrel making accurate aiming harder.
These symptoms will affect all rifles differently.
Rest assured that it happens to every rifle.
If these issues don't affect you it's probably because they don't affect guns in computer games.
Looks like a rifle and my wiener have a few things in common 😏
properly heat treated barrels will open up but not drift.
@@Thedisgruntledfarmer I'll edit that to "symptoms may include"
Ya hot barrel don't wander but it's barrel interaction with the stock that cause drifting zero.
@@corporalpunishment1133 How does an AR-15 barrel interact with the stock? If you removed the handguard (so that boring is touching the barrel) and rested it on the receiver, I bet the group would still drift.
From what I understand, it's a problem with the early metallurgy and the stress relief. Modern pencil barrels, like the Faxon used in the WWSD 2020 will have their groups increase, but generally retain their point of zero.
@@cymond "symptoms may include" wandering zero. My No4 mk1 dose a little your ar15 probably not.
We were taught literally nose touching charging handle. This was a quick consistent cheeck weld.
Some guys did that in service rifle matches. Was really funny when the habit of putting your face way up there carried over into the first shot of the vintage matches with real rifle rounds.
@@WastelandArmorer different weapons different techniques. That said if I hear a bump in the night I am not reaching for my Lee Enfield untill I have run through 5.56 , .30 carbine and 7.62x39.
Tell me what makes a real rifle round? My A1 fired a 55 grain round at 3,000 feet per second that's about 1700 foot pounds energy which does interesting things to a 185 pound man.
you cant really do NTCH with an optic on the carry handle, its too high. Youd need to change the upper reciever to a flatop picatinny rail and mount the optic to that
223 kills the body. 30-06 kills the soul.
I would take an A1 over a modern rifle any day of the week
Why?
Whatever it is that you like about the A1 can be replicated with modern parts.
At a very minimum you should use a Free float handguard and a moden optic. there is NO advantage (and plenty of disadvantage) to NOT free float the AR platform. Also, GI triggers suck, you can get moden good 4lb triggers that are reliable and safe and much easier to shoot accurate with.
Otherwise, yes alot of other stuff is a bit tactical-timmy and not needed
“Not so fast as to offend anyone” the lack of ability to shoot accurately and fast offends me
Awesome stuff dude on my a2 carbine I have a medium profile 1/9 556 barrel and I've never really noticed even when I get it hot any group shift maybe a pencil would but I'd say fora semi auto gun civilian gun applications it still would do the job
Much more heavy barrel
@@johnstacy7902 my carbine weights 8 pounds loaded with a steel mag and can balance on one finger with the carry handle
@@joemorganeatmyshortschannel too bad you can't post a picture :(
The barrel drift will occur because it got too hot from sustained fire.
That looks just like the rifle I had when I was in the reserves. If you like that one, you would go ga-ga over a tricked out AR-15A4 Service Rifle with an optic for CMP/NRA bullseye shooting. Camp Perry is at the end of July. :-)
No I wouldn't ;)
Not bad, but what about after 300 rounds?
Not sure of the relevance of firing that much ammo that quickly tbh... And that's more ammo than one person was likely to be carrying in the M16A1 era in any case.
@@BlokeontheRange True, but just want to see when a pencil barrel does actually string shots due to heat issues, as compared to a heavier barrel.
I was discussing this with Ian in Finland a few days back - if it's not significantly wandering at 300m after 30 well-aimed rounds as fast as possible, it's not an issue. If you're firing much faster and more than that, you're at much closer range so it doesn't matter. So basically if you're at a range where it matters, you're unlikely to be shooting fast enough and high enough volumes for it to matter, and if you're shooting that much then you're going to be close up so it doesn't matter.
Uh at that point they just use the m249...
It doesn't say much with that round count but the range is the range.
A real M16A1 is still an AR15 rifle, "M16A1" is just the military designation for a specific variant of AR15 pattern rifle.
He is very well aware of that.
I am interested in your view of the Brownells optic for my Bushmaster upper...
I got to shoot with one and it was awful. IMO get a DNTZ carry handle mount with a 1.5x5 Leopold for the same $$$. Our an early aimpoint clone
Nobody is going to shoot that slow in a firefight. I'd like to see how much it drifts after 4 full mags and it's nice and hot.
Your group is not bad for combat accuracy and quite good for a shooter, but it is way, way to scattered to tell if there is drift. Almost worthless.
What, exactly, do you expect a stock M16A1 with 55gn ammo to be capable of at 300m? The rifle with the scope with that ammo will hold to about 2 MOA at 300m, which is far better than "combat accurate"? And surely if you can't see drift, then the point is made?