"For those who havent seen it before, the Swiss target is veal geschnetzelte pectoral, Toblerone ribs, a wheel of Emmental to simulate lung tissue, more Toblerone ribs on the back, four layers of alpenflage on the front, four layers of alpenflage on the back and the whole thing followed by the new and improved hi tech militärblachen bullet stop."
(USMC 1970s here) The bipod was to steady the rifle for full-auto fire, so it wasn't considered a problem, though flimsy bipod was a bit of a pain. In the Marine Corps, we were also taught a tight, high-on-the-arm sling use, for formal range qual--I was taught its use with the M14. The hasty sling was simply intended to steady the rifle; we were cautioned not to get to too tight, to avoid the barrel bending you demonstrated so well.
203vis a piece of shit always comes loose and wobbles makes the rifle awkward to carry and barrel heavy throwing off the accuracy of both. M79 is far better.
I love that you do things so properly here. Like I'm sure other people would just have the sling in whatever way they where used to but you take the extra effort to make sure you do it all doctrine appropriate and I think thats really cool!
The pod was only supposed to be used for auto fire with tracers and mostly at night or when in NBC conditions. If I remember correctly. First time I used a bipod, was the first time and last, that I tried chewing tobacco....no one told me I was supposed to spit.
More difficult to find sometimes, but they did make a "Float Tube" that still allowed the use of the stock handguards. It was designed for match shooting with a sling, so it has the same benefit as a modern free float handguard with a front sling swivel, but preserves the look of the original rifle. The clip on bipod is garbage and was discarded as extra weight, better used to carry more ammo, water, etc. instead.
Love it. Have seen it in real life and have seen the report, although it has been a while. I followed the link and had an issue. The tab listed M16A1_Research_Report but the document was 839 pages. On the first page 17 (actually 2-17, obviously incorrect) it included the duties of the Venereal Disease Officer and the Damage control Officer. I did find it finally on page 510 / 839. My PDF Viewer may be out of date or otherwise hampered but this information may help others striving for that extra credit.
A very informative video on the M-16 A1 buy pod application and varients. Well, spoken and clear video made it easy to understand the different forces that affected the non-free, floating pencil, thin barrel of the M-16 A1. Thanks for sharing
Interesting and very relevant video, especially given all the folks buying their first AR. Your channel is one of the few in which I watch every episode. Thanks for all the great info, especially re: Enfield rifles.
I was taught the rest position, hasty sling and bipod (for night fire with automatic burst) at Ft. Polk, LA, USA in 1972, with the M16A1. Geoff Who notes we only had 20 round magazines, I got seven 30s and a bipod when I was designated auto rifleman in a maintenance unit a few months later. Never used the magazine as a monopod.
so when you free float the barrel a lot of people put the front sight on the aluminum handguard tube. Even though the barrel is free floated if you pull on the handguard it might deflect ever so slightly shifting your point of aim without affecting point of impact!
I was thinking about that. I've heard of this being an issue with rail mounted PEQ-15s and resting on barriers. I would think Bloke's sight being mounted on the barrel would move with the barrel which would mitigate some of the problems with flex. If he had a scope mounted to the receiver the results probably would have been much more severe. If the front sight were moved farther forward the results would probably be less. I wonder what the stiffness of various rails are compared to the barrels. I think a barrel mounted sight with a free float rail would be the best option but Daniel Defense makes the only one I'm aware of and it is expensive.
@@5000rgb indeed, thats the only manufacturer who makes a free floated handguard but respecting the original barrel mounted front sight. new manufacturing processes render this kind of problems almost unnoticeable. the best option would be having the handguard reaching up to the muzzle brake. if you run a 16" barrel, get a 16" handguard and so on. just try to be careful and build that caution into a habit
I experienced the same phenomenon with my Romanian AK. Rested point of impact was significantly lower than when using a spring clamp metal bipod attached. Weight of the rifle caused barrel defection and shots went noticeably higher while using the bipod. No more bipod.
My favorite service rifle when I was issued to me. It was so simple and easy to use when life as a soldier was simple back then. The issue M16A1s were constantly re-barreled and stuff being fixed on it. As an infantryman I never saw these rifles ever serviced very much other than the handguards being replaced. These rifles were tough because we would be out with them during training exercises, live fire, and qualifications. These rifles took a beating by infantrymen years at a time. I have never seen one ever destroyed other than idiocy by the soldier leaving his rifle by the ramp of an APC being closed or being run over by one. Bad luck for Joe, now he has to pay for it out of his pay check. These can survive being dropped and pounded into the ground as long as you have the safety on. Good combat rifles in the rain, snow, and desert sands as long as Joe doesn't forget about the dust cover. They still will work with blank ammunition as long as once again Joe remembers to tighten up his blank adapter and puts oil into his bolt and closes his dust cover. It's a very good rifle as long as G.I. Joe gets his ass kicked by his squad leader for 3-4 years of his life cleaning and maintaining it. I was so good with the M16A1 that I got to carry a heavier weapon the M-60 and harder to maintain. I got punished for being just a good rifleman.
I used to replace A1 barrels frequently for three major reasons: 1. Muzzle shot out (unlined barrels) 2. Bent barrels, between the muzzle and just behind the ft sight band 3. Breech erosion (unlined barrels). Newer chromed bore really cut back a lot on barrel wear. A2 barrels weren’t replaced anywhere near A1 numbers.... until Present.
@@seand3103 Were you in the Air Force Combat Arms department? When you said unlined barrels, the Air Force had unlined barrels for their M16s. Because the Army started putting in chromed lined barrels by 1967 as the M16A1. Yeah the pain in the ass to installing barrels was the barrel nut. Just had to get that right to line up the gas tube. I learned from our company amorers by watching them install a couple with bent barrels. A couple of Jack Wagons from 1st Platoon were using their rifles to open ammunition crates for the M2 .50 cals.
reddevilparatrooper I was a Army small arms repairman for 15 yrs and changed specialties in the reserves. I’m a small arms repairman now as a civilian. I put all that knowledge to work. A section chief and I stumbled on a hornets nest during a courtesy check (10 per cent check) for a customer unit. Artillery battery had 3/4 of their wpns bent/shot out. We started our whole support area on total check with high priority after that and found same all the way around the units and were non chrome. All the replacement barrels were chrome lined. In the end, 1000 bbls replaced within a 3 month window. Major wtf question afterwards.
HRB A2’s new, generally have a burr at gasport. A1’s were really bad about bending especially after bayonet training. Today I’ve almost given up using straightness gage because the wpns are generally dirty and not cleaned properly. Today’s standard weapon is M4A1 carbine. Short, not likely bent and they don’t teach bayonet training to basic training.
Went through boot in 99 with an A2. Absolutely can confirm using the sling the way you were taught changed point of impact. I believe the new M27 and M38 are free floated. My civvy version of them is anyway.
I find your results interesting. I never fired the A1 with a bipod. However with that tight "American" sling I had no problems at 200,300 or 500 yds. hitting the bullseye. And that was using the "close" range & "long" range peep sights.
An experienced/old MG platoon bloke once taught me that you need to set the gas regulator so the gun is "balanced". Meaning the recoil impulse and the working parts going rearward have roughly the same kinetic energy wise as when they are going forwards under spring pressure. Thats on a GPMG of course but the basic principle has always put me right off the idea of a rigid bipod with no articulation. Even more so ones attached to the barrel.
Excellent shooting Bloke! I always found the bipod raised the point of impact so I would always lower my point of aim to compensate. Keep up the good work!
Bought a Colt R6520 last week, A2 upper, 16" lightweight barrel, slabside A1 lower, made in '88. For sure those old guns are not as effective as new flattop/freefloating guns, but damn they are sexy!
More than good enough for practical purposes. Plus you just can't beat the old-school carryhandle guns for looks, and there's plenty of furniture options if the ribbed tube isn't doing it for ya. With a free-float gun you kinda end up stuck with what you got xD
Great video. Thanks. Any attachments to a rifle barrel will change barrel harmonics and thus the point of impact down range, attaching a bayonet has a similar effect. As for resting mags on the ground i cant speak to, i don' like the practice.
From what I hear resting mags on the ground does not cause malfunctions in an AR-15 but I have to wonder if the recoil would eventually waller out the magazine catch.
I'd say it maybe solved a couple...mainly the bending of the barrel forward of the sight tower from traumatic impact. We're talking hard service use here, not as a range toy.
Very interesting. In a way, another way of thinking about the effect of the bipod is that the one direction it definitely stops the muzzle moving is lower. It would be interesting when time permits to do a similar comparison including a group shot "off the elbows" which tends to be the default in most field scenarios, especially in the offensive rather than in prepared defensive positions. Keep up the good work!
Really nice to see a simple lightweight bipod actually tightened the horizontal deflection of the rifle. Might convince me to get one of the surplus bipods that are floating around en masse.
HBAR fixes the "barrel flex." Would love to do a 20-inch pencil barrel build with free-float rifle-length foregrip, clam-shell version. Perfect demonstration video, thumbs up!
Doesn't surprise me. I shot Appleseed last year, and using the sling pulled the point of impact on my A4 clone down by, if memory serves, 4-5 MOA pretty consistently. I'll be going back with a free-float as soon as people stop coughing. One thing concerns me though; I have backup irons on my rifle, and the front sight is fixed to the pic rail on top of the hand guard. Sticking with an optic ought to be fine, but I can't imagine I'll get nice results if I try to use the irons and the sling at the same time.
It was a firearm that I used as a personal firearm when I was in the military, and I can't believe it was already 27 years ago. I miss those days, but if I go back and ask them to do it, I can't.
I briefly owned a similar vintage AR15, it was new(ish) at the time. After 1 mag of moderately rapid fire it wouldn't stay on the paper at 200 yards. Sold it fairly quickly.
Free-floating isn't without its flaws, tbh! I built an AR that was originally free-floated, but I ended up changing it back to a traditional delta ring, non-free float configuration because the free float tube I had kinda sucked. Its sling swivel holes didn't align right and were a rough fit, and the tube would always heat up and get scratched easily. From what I've read, ammo choice has a larger effect on group size than free-floating, and consistent technique should allow you to keep the group from shifting point of impact. I thought the free float tube would simply be superior to the traditional design, but I found that there are actually pro's and con's to both!
You could try a DCM float tube. They fit UNDER GI profile handguards and your rifle is literally indistinguishable from a standard A2. Of course, this is assuming you have a 20" rifle.
You mentioned this M16 and the Sterling were commercial full autos. What markets were they for? US civilian, police, or civilians in other countries with less restrictive gun laws at the time?
You'd get considerably more rock with the recoil, but I'm curious if you'd have less influence on the barrel if the bipod clamped to the slip ring, a la the SVD style of attachment
The front of the A2 barrel was thickened to try and reduce bending of the barrel when troops jammed their 3-prong flash suppressor into a wooden crate and pried on it. Heaven forbid that they just train troops to not do stuff like that and maybe issue crowbars...
@@BlokeontheRange at the risk of being a guy on the internet "who knew a guy": a friend of mine was USMC in the late 70's to early 80's and he said that many Marines went to great lengths to get a 3-prong 'hider and put it on their rifle during that time period. He said that he personally didn't get it, but he chalked it up to the classic "I can't have one anymore so now I really want one" frame of mind.
@@BlokeontheRange also, I think the misuse of the barrel as a crowbar thing even predates the A1. Knowing grunts, they probably had that problem from the get go.
@@BlokeontheRange My first USMC issue M16A1 (for all of 60 seconds in 1985 or 86) had a 3-prong FS. Just as it got into my hands, the Armourer said "Wait, that one's already been issued"; took it back and gave me another one with a closed FS.
For the 1st link you provided the pdf is about field artillery battery organization. Are you sure that is the right file? I can't seem to find anything about the m16a1.
Is it the weight or may it be barrel harmonics that is interferred with the grouping. Is it possible to do the same for the H&K G3? The barrel is connected to the sling in the front, and what happens if you put on a bayonett?
Do this same experiment with a scope rather than irons. When you're pushing up on the barrel, you're also moving the sight up, which you wouldn't be if scoped I suspect the movement of the groups would be even greater.
Bloke, do you guys have any magazine capacity restrictions over there? Also - I am looking forward to getting one of these beautiful rifles. The prices for a new one over here are really great for such a piece of history (and what is actually a great gun).
If you bought a gun before August 2019, you can own any capacity mag you like. If you bought it after August 2019 it depends. If you got it with a special permit, then you're fine, if you got it with a regular permit (WES) then it is max 20 rds for pistols and max 10 rds for rifles.
This makes me wonder if someone were to build a replica with a new barrel say a faxon pencil profile with the same gas block sight pin cut outs etc etc. If similar results would yield.
Cap Madman it would do the same thing depends on relative thickness of the barrels the amount of the effect. The barrel material (4150 steel) is the same it’s more a question of barrel stiffness and loading forces on the barrel causing the deflection rather than internal stresses of the barrel causing group size increases. You could see this effect with a heavy barrel if you load the barrel with enough force.
No, you can't have an M16A1 in Britain. Nor can you have one "with the gas port plugged". You can have one built from the ground up as a non-semi though.
Good video, my original Colt AR15 SP1, is very similar to your rifle but with no forward assist, unfortunately it is destined for the scrap heap with the new Canadian legislation, "no one needs a military style assault rifle" Hope you enjoy yours, Best regards.
What you're not seeing is that the 3rd pin holes have been drilled out and threaded for a 4mm thread and have grub screws in there ;) Which we didn't need to do but we did anyway. Taking out the auto sear would have been enough, but we decided to go a bit above and beyond, so the hook on the hammer has been filed back to be inoperative too, and a semi selector fitted.
I can verify that there is indeed a change of point of impact. Shooting my genuine M16A1 upper off the bipod and then shooting off hand at a shooting league yielded very different impact points. I was very much surprised.
Oh the upper and lower receiver will get loose over time when pulling back the butt stock and your non firing hand resting on the hand guards. Pull back will put downward pressure and your other hand on the hand guards with put upward pressure. The M16 is held by only two pins so the upper and lower will have a wobble and twist which can affect your windage during qualification. All M16s are zeroed at 25 meters using a sandbag being the hand guard are rested and the lower is pressured forward and the upper where the barrel is pressured up. When you apply the proper trigger squeeze is the rifle's true zero with the battle sights. So when soldiers shoot in the old qualification using only the prone and foxhole firing positions first using a rested sandbag they will always hit majority of their first targets with the first 20 rounds. The Last 20 rounds are in prone with no sandbag or support called the prone unsupported. Most soldiers will not put the butt of the stock deeply into their shoulders and ride the recoil after every squeeze after getting a good sight picture. The unsupported position will get most soldiers during qualification either they barely qualified or not qualify and do it all over again. The M16 is a tricky rifle to qualify with battle sights as it was the standards before Combat Optics became common after 2008. Before that soldiers had to zero and qualify with battle sights then do the same with combat optics either the Trijicon M68 red dot or the 4X32 ACOG. I had my own ACOG before I went to Iraq. So the M16A1/A2/M4 with battle sights are tricky to tune out because of the soldier's ability to calm down and properly squeeze to zero and qualify. But it is a perfect weapon to fire down on the enemy just aiming and firing in combat. That is why they put the ghost ring combat sight on the A2 and M4 for fire suppression in semi-auto. Mind you this is for 300 meters.
@@cs-rj8ru Honestly I would take the M16/M4 series in combat. Reason is the M16/M4/AR-15 platform is all parts can be taken down and replaced when broken to include the most important part is the barrel. When I was in the Army I talked with my buddies in the arms room and taught me how to replace barrels on the M16A1. That is the most difficult and crucial part in maintaining the system. After getting out the first time I got a Class 1 FFL and started to build ARs from parts from Bushmaster and low quality stuff from Eagle Arms. Before I left the Army I had gotten the M16A1/A2 Armorers Manual. This was the early 1990s. By then I was in the Army National Guard. I was also the unit's armorer because my company chain of command were policemen and were also competitive shooters. I would fix their duty pistols and other stuff and build ARs for them along with other soldiers in my unit. I also ordered guns for them too. I was totally self taught. AK platforms are also easy to maintain as long as you don't have to replace the barrel or gas tower. That requires skill because the barrel has to be pressed in by a hydraulic press. The problem is all AK trunnions varies from Russian, Chinese, Bulgarian, etc. All Commbloc countries may have gotten the Soviet technical package to produce the AK but all have modified them by measurement dimension to suit each of their countries needs. From my experience the Egyptian Maadi is make exactly from the Soviet AKM as specified in the technical package. The AR/M16 series only differs like semi-auto civilian firearms only along with civilian semi-auto AKs with no select fire capabilities. AR components are made from the same materials in metal specifications in quality now. The outward appearances may vary on look from forgings and barrels. What remains the same especially the direct impingement system is the internal components of a basic trigger mechanism, upper receiver internally, chamber barrel assembly, and gas intake principles. That is why the AR platform is "Barbie for Men". It has evolved over almost 60 years from the most hated weapon in Vietnam when it was new to the most loved and prized rifle and carbine of choice today. Great question Brother. Sorry I have been drinking too much just to give you an answer like this. My mind goes geek when a question like yours pops out.
Wouldn't agree with all the final piece, a free floating barrel would be worse with the bipod since it was attached to the barrel. Other than that an interesting video, thanks bloke.
I dislike your groupings, they should be tighter. EDIT: Forgot to mention how awesome it is that you basically just did a repeatability study. And like all good science, you found that the findings were repeatable.
The sling and the"bipod" will affect the point of impact. The bipod was the "automatic rifle" idea. The officer class thought this would work. Grunts just shot the sights freehand. The scary thing is the US military thought troops would waste ammo if they were allowed to shoot independently. Sound familiar BOTR. And don't mag rest if your expecting to hit anything. This amplifies bad marksmanship. Later models didn't help much. If you want to see how this gets better look to the civilian competition market. Most soldiers know how to take orders but few know how to innovate. Not encouraged!!!
“Keep your weapon pointed down range, your not shooting at aircraft !” “Who are you ? John Wane ?” “If you fail to follow correct range sop you will be removed from my range, do you understand ?” These quotes and a few more are my memories from some years ago now 😂 When you are shooting with the aid of a bipod or rest it’s best to use your other hand under the stock to aid the weapon to point naturally at the target. 👍
There is a video where mark (bloke) and the chap talk about what one can have. If I', not mistaken, citizens can one some but they're only shot at special events about twice a year.
If I remember correcty: There are different categories of "green cards" in Switzerland. If you come to Switzerland, you start with a B permit. There you have to prove that you can own the same gun in your home country. After five years (if you are from an EU/Schengen country, I think 10 years if not), you upgrade to a C permit and then it is the same as for Swiss citizens.
Remember!!!! Put the mag in before retracting the bolt with your left arm or some Brit Curmudgeon will kick you off his range 30 yrs ago. The drama though...
From what ive noticed, you are really looking to make sure the results end up being in compliance with the files. I dont think the results of the mag rested, and the sling, deviate that much compared to the rested position. The bi-pod really deviated significantly to call it something that makes your shots go off target a lot. I saw you did that with analysis in videos before. So i think you should be more critical on the files you read, based on your own results. And the results is what you should go for. It is not bad to make up your own mind, if that is what the results say it is. Well its only results, it is not you that falls out of lines. It is the results that were unexpected, but the proof that it was different. From what i saw, and what ive read (because i saw and read, what you have read: slings and bipods change point of impact) that the impact is changed if any lateral pressure is applied on the barrel; it changes the harmonics of the barrel, and bends the barrel, making the bullets go of into another direction. And thus, a hand guard that makes your barrel free from lateral pressure really is the only way to go to make a gun shoot accurately. Whether you use bipod, sling, rest, c clamp, etc. etc. really doesnt matter anymore when you do that. Get an AR15, or AR10 and put on a "free floating handguard" and you wont be disappointed. Of course that is not as original as an m16a1 semiauto copy, which i do like! I really enjoy your research on this. While ive read about this a lot, an i havent seen this done in real life, so it is really cool to see it happen before my eyes! Greetings, Jeff P.s. Ive heared the "BROWNELLS RETRO 4X CARRY HANDLE SCOPE" are really worth it. And it is still compliant with the Vietnam era.
@@zoiders Yes, i am working on the bullet factory and how it works. After that you know exactly how it works. But it will take some longer time. I hope before fall 2020. So that is some time left.
When it comes to the M16, you should test the 3 ring myth. That the openings shouldnt be staked after each other around the bolt, its a myth which have been used during education at firearms training both military and civilian. It would be nice if you tested it ones and for all.
![กี่หมื่นฟ้า | Your Sky Series EP.1 [2/4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qJbQs_nhjD4/mqdefault.jpg)
"*Angry noises* DON'T REST YOUR MAGAZINE ON THE GROUND" -USMC
9-Hole Reviews I was told that at Benning too. “An anachronism taught through institutional inbreeding” -some CAG guy
I was told that in our lord of 1987 when I qualified expert. However the kids are allowed to now and so do I cause I am lazy.
The 9-Hole - BoTR bromance is much better than the InRange - anyone collabs. Keep it up. Like the collabs
Leftover practice from the M-14, should be irrelevant with A M-16 variant.
@@509Gman Isn't that a PatMac saying?
No no no, it goes "we're out on the the range today so please bear with any gunfire you here in the background".
Man of culture
But he does do the dawn of time explanations...
"For those who havent seen it before, the Swiss target is veal geschnetzelte pectoral, Toblerone ribs, a wheel of Emmental to simulate lung tissue, more Toblerone ribs on the back, four layers of alpenflage on the front, four layers of alpenflage on the back and the whole thing followed by the new and improved hi tech militärblachen bullet stop."
@@davidcolter Superb 😂
That's exactly what I heard in my head when I tried Shasta Orange for the first time yesterday.
(USMC 1970s here) The bipod was to steady the rifle for full-auto fire, so it wasn't considered a problem, though flimsy bipod was a bit of a pain.
In the Marine Corps, we were also taught a tight, high-on-the-arm sling use, for formal range qual--I was taught its use with the M14. The hasty sling was simply intended to steady the rifle; we were cautioned not to get to too tight, to avoid the barrel bending you demonstrated so well.
And the reason the A2 barrel profile under the handguard was left small was to be able to attach the M203 under-barrel grenade launcher.
203vis a piece of shit always comes loose and wobbles makes the rifle awkward to carry and barrel heavy throwing off the accuracy of both. M79 is far better.
And also the m203 40mm in any launcher does not work explode large big like it does in Scarface sadly!
InRange talked about exactly this during their original WWSD project. Great to see a practical demonstration!
I love that you do things so properly here. Like I'm sure other people would just have the sling in whatever way they where used to but you take the extra effort to make sure you do it all doctrine appropriate and I think thats really cool!
The pod was only supposed to be used for auto fire with tracers and mostly at night or when in NBC conditions. If I remember correctly. First time I used a bipod, was the first time and last, that I tried chewing tobacco....no one told me I was supposed to spit.
More difficult to find sometimes, but they did make a "Float Tube" that still allowed the use of the stock handguards. It was designed for match shooting with a sling, so it has the same benefit as a modern free float handguard with a front sling swivel, but preserves the look of the original rifle. The clip on bipod is garbage and was discarded as extra weight, better used to carry more ammo, water, etc. instead.
Love it. Have seen it in real life and have seen the report, although it has been a while. I followed the link and had an issue. The tab listed M16A1_Research_Report but the document was 839 pages. On the first page 17 (actually 2-17, obviously incorrect) it included the duties of the Venereal Disease Officer and the Damage control Officer. I did find it finally on page 510 / 839. My PDF Viewer may be out of date or otherwise hampered but this information may help others striving for that extra credit.
A very informative video on the M-16 A1 buy pod application and varients. Well, spoken and clear video made it easy to understand the different forces that affected the non-free, floating pencil, thin barrel of the M-16 A1. Thanks for sharing
Interesting and very relevant video, especially given all the folks buying their first AR. Your channel is one of the few in which I watch every episode. Thanks for all the great info, especially re: Enfield rifles.
I was taught the rest position, hasty sling and bipod (for night fire with automatic burst) at Ft. Polk, LA, USA in 1972, with the M16A1. Geoff Who notes we only had 20 round magazines, I got seven 30s and a bipod when I was designated auto rifleman in a maintenance unit a few months later. Never used the magazine as a monopod.
so when you free float the barrel a lot of people put the front sight on the aluminum handguard tube. Even though the barrel is free floated if you pull on the handguard it might deflect ever so slightly shifting your point of aim without affecting point of impact!
I was thinking about that. I've heard of this being an issue with rail mounted PEQ-15s and resting on barriers. I would think Bloke's sight being mounted on the barrel would move with the barrel which would mitigate some of the problems with flex. If he had a scope mounted to the receiver the results probably would have been much more severe. If the front sight were moved farther forward the results would probably be less.
I wonder what the stiffness of various rails are compared to the barrels. I think a barrel mounted sight with a free float rail would be the best option but Daniel Defense makes the only one I'm aware of and it is expensive.
@@5000rgb indeed, thats the only manufacturer who makes a free floated handguard but respecting the original barrel mounted front sight. new manufacturing processes render this kind of problems almost unnoticeable. the best option would be having the handguard reaching up to the muzzle brake. if you run a 16" barrel, get a 16" handguard and so on. just try to be careful and build that caution into a habit
I experienced the same phenomenon with my Romanian AK. Rested point of impact was significantly lower than when using a spring clamp metal bipod attached. Weight of the rifle caused barrel defection and shots went noticeably higher while using the bipod. No more bipod.
My favorite service rifle when I was issued to me. It was so simple and easy to use when life as a soldier was simple back then. The issue M16A1s were constantly re-barreled and stuff being fixed on it. As an infantryman I never saw these rifles ever serviced very much other than the handguards being replaced. These rifles were tough because we would be out with them during training exercises, live fire, and qualifications. These rifles took a beating by infantrymen years at a time. I have never seen one ever destroyed other than idiocy by the soldier leaving his rifle by the ramp of an APC being closed or being run over by one. Bad luck for Joe, now he has to pay for it out of his pay check. These can survive being dropped and pounded into the ground as long as you have the safety on. Good combat rifles in the rain, snow, and desert sands as long as Joe doesn't forget about the dust cover. They still will work with blank ammunition as long as once again Joe remembers to tighten up his blank adapter and puts oil into his bolt and closes his dust cover. It's a very good rifle as long as G.I. Joe gets his ass kicked by his squad leader for 3-4 years of his life cleaning and maintaining it. I was so good with the M16A1 that I got to carry a heavier weapon the M-60 and harder to maintain. I got punished for being just a good rifleman.
I used to replace A1 barrels frequently for three major reasons: 1. Muzzle shot out (unlined barrels) 2. Bent barrels, between the muzzle and just behind the ft sight band 3. Breech erosion (unlined barrels). Newer chromed bore really cut back a lot on barrel wear. A2 barrels weren’t replaced anywhere near A1 numbers.... until Present.
@@seand3103 Were they actually bent, or the gas port burr?
@@seand3103 Were you in the Air Force Combat Arms department? When you said unlined barrels, the Air Force had unlined barrels for their M16s. Because the Army started putting in chromed lined barrels by 1967 as the M16A1. Yeah the pain in the ass to installing barrels was the barrel nut. Just had to get that right to line up the gas tube. I learned from our company amorers by watching them install a couple with bent barrels. A couple of Jack Wagons from 1st Platoon were using their rifles to open ammunition crates for the M2 .50 cals.
reddevilparatrooper I was a Army small arms repairman for 15 yrs and changed specialties in the reserves. I’m a small arms repairman now as a civilian. I put all that knowledge to work. A section chief and I stumbled on a hornets nest during a courtesy check (10 per cent check) for a customer unit. Artillery battery had 3/4 of their wpns bent/shot out. We started our whole support area on total check with high priority after that and found same all the way around the units and were non chrome. All the replacement barrels were chrome lined. In the end, 1000 bbls replaced within a 3 month window. Major wtf question afterwards.
HRB A2’s new, generally have a burr at gasport. A1’s were really bad about bending especially after bayonet training. Today I’ve almost given up using straightness gage because the wpns are generally dirty and not cleaned properly. Today’s standard weapon is M4A1 carbine. Short, not likely bent and they don’t teach bayonet training to basic training.
Went through boot in 99 with an A2. Absolutely can confirm using the sling the way you were taught changed point of impact. I believe the new M27 and M38 are free floated. My civvy version of them is anyway.
Just use the bipod & the hasty sling together so they cancel each other out lol
That is good mall ninja logic.
I find your results interesting. I never fired the A1 with a bipod. However with that tight "American" sling I had no problems at 200,300 or 500 yds. hitting the bullseye. And that was using the "close" range & "long" range peep sights.
As long as everything is consistent, sling tension included...Should be no problem as you say.
An experienced/old MG platoon bloke once taught me that you need to set the gas regulator so the gun is "balanced". Meaning the recoil impulse and the working parts going rearward have roughly the same kinetic energy wise as when they are going forwards under spring pressure. Thats on a GPMG of course but the basic principle has always put me right off the idea of a rigid bipod with no articulation. Even more so ones attached to the barrel.
Excellent shooting Bloke! I always found the bipod raised the point of impact so I would always lower my point of aim to compensate. Keep up the good work!
Nice vid! There's just something so "old school cool" about the M16a1
Now I feel old, thanks :)
If you have access to an H-Bar A2, I'd love to see this same demonstration with it.
Bought a Colt R6520 last week, A2 upper, 16" lightweight barrel, slabside A1 lower, made in '88.
For sure those old guns are not as effective as new flattop/freefloating guns, but damn they are sexy!
More than good enough for practical purposes. Plus you just can't beat the old-school carryhandle guns for looks, and there's plenty of furniture options if the ribbed tube isn't doing it for ya.
With a free-float gun you kinda end up stuck with what you got xD
Great video. Thanks.
Any attachments to a rifle barrel will change barrel harmonics and thus the point of impact down range, attaching a bayonet has a similar effect. As for resting mags on the ground i cant speak to, i don' like the practice.
From what I hear resting mags on the ground does not cause malfunctions in an AR-15 but I have to wonder if the recoil would eventually waller out the magazine catch.
The A2 barrel profile was a mistake. It aimed to solve a problem that wasn't there.
And it didn't even solve that problem.
I'd say it maybe solved a couple...mainly the bending of the barrel forward of the sight tower from traumatic impact. We're talking hard service use here, not as a range toy.
@@cs-rj8ru that's the problem that wasn't there. Give this article a read: www.everydaymarksman.co/equipment/government-profile-barrel/
Very interesting. In a way, another way of thinking about the effect of the bipod is that the one direction it definitely stops the muzzle moving is lower. It would be interesting when time permits to do a similar comparison including a group shot "off the elbows" which tends to be the default in most field scenarios, especially in the offensive rather than in prepared defensive positions. Keep up the good work!
Really nice to see a simple lightweight bipod actually tightened the horizontal deflection of the rifle. Might convince me to get one of the surplus bipods that are floating around en masse.
Excellent video, it really shows the real world results of barrel bend.
Mate thats a beautiful weapon.
HBAR fixes the "barrel flex." Would love to do a 20-inch pencil barrel build with free-float rifle-length foregrip, clam-shell version. Perfect demonstration video, thumbs up!
Such a cool magazine release.
Oh neato! These typesbof vids are great and informative
Doesn't surprise me. I shot Appleseed last year, and using the sling pulled the point of impact on my A4 clone down by, if memory serves, 4-5 MOA pretty consistently. I'll be going back with a free-float as soon as people stop coughing.
One thing concerns me though; I have backup irons on my rifle, and the front sight is fixed to the pic rail on top of the hand guard. Sticking with an optic ought to be fine, but I can't imagine I'll get nice results if I try to use the irons and the sling at the same time.
It was a firearm that I used as a personal firearm when I was in the military, and I can't believe it was already 27 years ago. I miss those days, but if I go back and ask them to do it, I can't.
I briefly owned a similar vintage AR15, it was new(ish) at the time. After 1 mag of moderately rapid fire it wouldn't stay on the paper at 200 yards. Sold it fairly quickly.
Very interesting! Thank you!
Very informative as always!
Oh the horrors of a barrel mounted bipod, my STG58 FAL has a similar issue, although it is even worse pulling right low by 40cm+ at 100m already...
Good stuff as always. Keep up the good work.
Awesome vid thanks 👍👍 love your work on the range.
Great video. Beautiful rifle and very nice range. Thanks for posting this video.
Thank you for an informative video. I really enjoy this content.
Very interesting stuff.
Free-floating isn't without its flaws, tbh! I built an AR that was originally free-floated, but I ended up changing it back to a traditional delta ring, non-free float configuration because the free float tube I had kinda sucked. Its sling swivel holes didn't align right and were a rough fit, and the tube would always heat up and get scratched easily. From what I've read, ammo choice has a larger effect on group size than free-floating, and consistent technique should allow you to keep the group from shifting point of impact. I thought the free float tube would simply be superior to the traditional design, but I found that there are actually pro's and con's to both!
You could try a DCM float tube. They fit UNDER GI profile handguards and your rifle is literally indistinguishable from a standard A2. Of course, this is assuming you have a 20" rifle.
You mentioned this M16 and the Sterling were commercial full autos. What markets were they for? US civilian, police, or civilians in other countries with less restrictive gun laws at the time?
Cool, very informative, thanks
You'd get considerably more rock with the recoil, but I'm curious if you'd have less influence on the barrel if the bipod clamped to the slip ring, a la the SVD style of attachment
Curious 1X12 or 1X9 barrel ????
1:12. It's an A1
The front of the A2 barrel was thickened to try and reduce bending of the barrel when troops jammed their 3-prong flash suppressor into a wooden crate and pried on it. Heaven forbid that they just train troops to not do stuff like that and maybe issue crowbars...
The A1 didn't have a 3-prong flash hider, that went out the window waaaaaaaaay earlier ;)
@@BlokeontheRange at the risk of being a guy on the internet "who knew a guy": a friend of mine was USMC in the late 70's to early 80's and he said that many Marines went to great lengths to get a 3-prong 'hider and put it on their rifle during that time period. He said that he personally didn't get it, but he chalked it up to the classic "I can't have one anymore so now I really want one" frame of mind.
@@BlokeontheRange also, I think the misuse of the barrel as a crowbar thing even predates the A1. Knowing grunts, they probably had that problem from the get go.
@@BlokeontheRange My first USMC issue M16A1 (for all of 60 seconds in 1985 or 86) had a 3-prong FS.
Just as it got into my hands, the Armourer said "Wait, that one's already been issued"; took it back and gave me another one with a closed FS.
For the 1st link you provided the pdf is about field artillery battery organization.
Are you sure that is the right file? I can't seem to find anything about the m16a1.
Excellent 👍. Thanks
Is it the weight or may it be barrel harmonics that is interferred with the grouping. Is it possible to do the same for the H&K G3? The barrel is connected to the sling in the front, and what happens if you put on a bayonett?
Cool test!
how many centimeters is the target's black circle
Do this same experiment with a scope rather than irons. When you're pushing up on the barrel, you're also moving the sight up, which you wouldn't be if scoped I suspect the movement of the groups would be even greater.
I strongly suspect you're right- .But the publications relate to irons, so we did it irons :)
Original what's that bolt assist and mag release bump.
Wait is that Gundelsei (or how was it called)? The range i mean. If so i fired a lot of shells ther :D
Bloke, do you guys have any magazine capacity restrictions over there?
Also - I am looking forward to getting one of these beautiful rifles. The prices for a new one over here are really great for such a piece of history (and what is actually a great gun).
If you bought a gun before August 2019, you can own any capacity mag you like. If you bought it after August 2019 it depends. If you got it with a special permit, then you're fine, if you got it with a regular permit (WES) then it is max 20 rds for pistols and max 10 rds for rifles.
It makes you wonder why to this day the US army STILL hasn't opted to free float the M4 barrel.
I think they're working on it...Mostly just cost.
These original M16 just look so much sleaker and handier than the fussy modern ones.
You should do British style skiing as well, prove its superiority ;)
If it had been left full fat... I cannot! 😂
Very interesting!
Very interesting 👍
This makes me wonder if someone were to build a replica with a new barrel say a faxon pencil profile with the same gas block sight pin cut outs etc etc. If similar results would yield.
Cap Madman it would do the same thing depends on relative thickness of the barrels the amount of the effect. The barrel material (4150 steel) is the same it’s more a question of barrel stiffness and loading forces on the barrel causing the deflection rather than internal stresses of the barrel causing group size increases. You could see this effect with a heavy barrel if you load the barrel with enough force.
Maybe your German cousin, Kurt, could elaborate on how the barrel on the K98K is bedded.
One for the algorithm.
Sounds like you need a new WWSD rifle with a Faxon pencil barrel to play with.
Can you use an a1 in Britain? I didn’t know that. I thought only with the gas port plugged.
No, you can't have an M16A1 in Britain. Nor can you have one "with the gas port plugged". You can have one built from the ground up as a non-semi though.
@@BlokeontheRange so you can have one with no gas plug at all….
Do they still make a1's?
Elon Musk buys underwear from yard sales.
Good video, my original Colt AR15 SP1, is very similar to your rifle but with no forward assist, unfortunately it is destined for the scrap heap with the new Canadian legislation, "no one needs a military style assault rifle"
Hope you enjoy yours, Best regards.
This is the saddest comment I have read in a while. I need to go hun my SP1's now.
Do you really need a free float barrel if you just hold the rifle properly?
yes, cos it's sensitive to the slightest variation. You can't hold it 100% consistently from shot to shot
What constitutes “blocking at semi auto”? I still see a third pin (autosear) hole
the third pin holes is ok here in switzerland, it has more to do with the internals.
What you're not seeing is that the 3rd pin holes have been drilled out and threaded for a 4mm thread and have grub screws in there ;) Which we didn't need to do but we did anyway. Taking out the auto sear would have been enough, but we decided to go a bit above and beyond, so the hook on the hammer has been filed back to be inoperative too, and a semi selector fitted.
I can verify that there is indeed a change of point of impact. Shooting my genuine M16A1 upper off the bipod and then shooting off hand at a shooting league yielded very different impact points. I was very much surprised.
Thats one sexy m16!
Oh the upper and lower receiver will get loose over time when pulling back the butt stock and your non firing hand resting on the hand guards. Pull back will put downward pressure and your other hand on the hand guards with put upward pressure. The M16 is held by only two pins so the upper and lower will have a wobble and twist which can affect your windage during qualification. All M16s are zeroed at 25 meters using a sandbag being the hand guard are rested and the lower is pressured forward and the upper where the barrel is pressured up. When you apply the proper trigger squeeze is the rifle's true zero with the battle sights. So when soldiers shoot in the old qualification using only the prone and foxhole firing positions first using a rested sandbag they will always hit majority of their first targets with the first 20 rounds. The Last 20 rounds are in prone with no sandbag or support called the prone unsupported. Most soldiers will not put the butt of the stock deeply into their shoulders and ride the recoil after every squeeze after getting a good sight picture. The unsupported position will get most soldiers during qualification either they barely qualified or not qualify and do it all over again. The M16 is a tricky rifle to qualify with battle sights as it was the standards before Combat Optics became common after 2008. Before that soldiers had to zero and qualify with battle sights then do the same with combat optics either the Trijicon M68 red dot or the 4X32 ACOG. I had my own ACOG before I went to Iraq. So the M16A1/A2/M4 with battle sights are tricky to tune out because of the soldier's ability to calm down and properly squeeze to zero and qualify. But it is a perfect weapon to fire down on the enemy just aiming and firing in combat. That is why they put the ghost ring combat sight on the A2 and M4 for fire suppression in semi-auto. Mind you this is for 300 meters.
The sad thing is that most M16's were made with Colt TDP "slop" and just wore out more with time, making it all the worse.
@@cs-rj8ru Honestly I would take the M16/M4 series in combat. Reason is the M16/M4/AR-15 platform is all parts can be taken down and replaced when broken to include the most important part is the barrel. When I was in the Army I talked with my buddies in the arms room and taught me how to replace barrels on the M16A1. That is the most difficult and crucial part in maintaining the system. After getting out the first time I got a Class 1 FFL and started to build ARs from parts from Bushmaster and low quality stuff from Eagle Arms. Before I left the Army I had gotten the M16A1/A2 Armorers Manual. This was the early 1990s. By then I was in the Army National Guard. I was also the unit's armorer because my company chain of command were policemen and were also competitive shooters. I would fix their duty pistols and other stuff and build ARs for them along with other soldiers in my unit. I also ordered guns for them too. I was totally self taught. AK platforms are also easy to maintain as long as you don't have to replace the barrel or gas tower. That requires skill because the barrel has to be pressed in by a hydraulic press. The problem is all AK trunnions varies from Russian, Chinese, Bulgarian, etc. All Commbloc countries may have gotten the Soviet technical package to produce the AK but all have modified them by measurement dimension to suit each of their countries needs. From my experience the Egyptian Maadi is make exactly from the Soviet AKM as specified in the technical package. The AR/M16 series only differs like semi-auto civilian firearms only along with civilian semi-auto AKs with no select fire capabilities. AR components are made from the same materials in metal specifications in quality now. The outward appearances may vary on look from forgings and barrels. What remains the same especially the direct impingement system is the internal components of a basic trigger mechanism, upper receiver internally, chamber barrel assembly, and gas intake principles. That is why the AR platform is "Barbie for Men". It has evolved over almost 60 years from the most hated weapon in Vietnam when it was new to the most loved and prized rifle and carbine of choice today. Great question Brother. Sorry I have been drinking too much just to give you an answer like this. My mind goes geek when a question like yours pops out.
Wouldn't agree with all the final piece, a free floating barrel would be worse with the bipod since it was attached to the barrel. Other than that an interesting video, thanks bloke.
Yeah, if you've free-floated the barrel, you wouldn't attach the bipod to it. That would be remarkably silly...
@@BlokeontheRange Never underestimate the capacity of the human race to do stupid.
Comically large spoon or comically large fork?
Nahhh, I'm comically large flash hider all the way 😈🙏🏻💯
Yep.. Ya HAVE to Zero like You Are Going to Shoot.
I dislike your groupings, they should be tighter.
EDIT: Forgot to mention how awesome it is that you basically just did a repeatability study. And like all good science, you found that the findings were repeatable.
Nine Hole would not be happy with your 5 shot groups!
The sling and the"bipod" will affect the point of impact. The bipod was the "automatic rifle" idea. The officer class thought this would work. Grunts just shot the sights freehand. The scary thing is the US military thought troops would waste ammo if they were allowed to shoot independently. Sound familiar BOTR. And don't mag rest if your expecting to hit anything. This amplifies bad marksmanship. Later models didn't help much. If you want to see how this gets better look to the civilian competition market. Most soldiers know how to take orders but few know how to innovate. Not encouraged!!!
Could we not sum the results by saying, "Bipod hit high, everything else about the same."
.
(?)
Are you gonna be @Finnish Brutality?
Yep, he's bring a sporterised mag fed no.4 (built that way, he isn't a terrible person)
@@jamietus1012
Ah, some good news. Thank you.
I hope Polenar is back as well.
@@onpsxmember not sure, I know karl and Ian won't be there due to the pandemic
@@jamietus1012
I heard about that. I guess they can use the time for their ongoing WWSD + planning for the new woodland + desert brutality next year.
Frankenrifle :)
th-cam.com/video/NOAHKzyYWYo/w-d-xo.html
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Forward assist. REEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEE
“Keep your weapon pointed down range, your not shooting at aircraft !”
“Who are you ? John Wane ?”
“If you fail to follow correct range sop you will be removed from my range, do you understand ?”
These quotes and a few more are my memories from some years ago now 😂
When you are shooting with the aid of a bipod or rest it’s best to use your other hand under the stock to aid the weapon to point naturally at the target.
👍
Can you own machine guns Even if you are not a swiss citizen are you a swiss citizen or do you have a equvivilant of a green pass?
There is a video where mark (bloke) and the chap talk about what one can have. If I', not mistaken, citizens can one some but they're only shot at special events about twice a year.
If I remember correcty:
There are different categories of "green cards" in Switzerland.
If you come to Switzerland, you start with a B permit. There you have to prove that you can own the same gun in your home country.
After five years (if you are from an EU/Schengen country, I think 10 years if not), you upgrade to a C permit and then it is the same as for Swiss citizens.
saying its an active range while the active range is ranging actively is kind of redundant
Sling or go home
Interesting. Although it is known. Subscribe.
Remember!!!!
Put the mag in before retracting the bolt with your left arm or some Brit Curmudgeon will kick you off his range 30 yrs ago. The drama though...
Only CHADS use the M16A1.
True Story
From what ive noticed, you are really looking to make sure the results end up being in compliance with the files. I dont think the results of the mag rested, and the sling, deviate that much compared to the rested position. The bi-pod really deviated significantly to call it something that makes your shots go off target a lot.
I saw you did that with analysis in videos before. So i think you should be more critical on the files you read, based on your own results. And the results is what you should go for. It is not bad to make up your own mind, if that is what the results say it is. Well its only results, it is not you that falls out of lines. It is the results that were unexpected, but the proof that it was different.
From what i saw, and what ive read (because i saw and read, what you have read: slings and bipods change point of impact) that the impact is changed if any lateral pressure is applied on the barrel; it changes the harmonics of the barrel, and bends the barrel, making the bullets go of into another direction. And thus, a hand guard that makes your barrel free from lateral pressure really is the only way to go to make a gun shoot accurately. Whether you use bipod, sling, rest, c clamp, etc. etc. really doesnt matter anymore when you do that.
Get an AR15, or AR10 and put on a "free floating handguard" and you wont be disappointed. Of course that is not as original as an m16a1 semiauto copy, which i do like!
I really enjoy your research on this. While ive read about this a lot, an i havent seen this done in real life, so it is really cool to see it happen before my eyes!
Greetings,
Jeff
P.s.
Ive heared the "BROWNELLS RETRO 4X CARRY HANDLE SCOPE" are really worth it. And it is still compliant with the Vietnam era.
Or you could get your own TH-cam channel...
@@zoiders Yes, i am working on the bullet factory and how it works. After that you know exactly how it works. But it will take some longer time. I hope before fall 2020. So that is some time left.
When it comes to the M16, you should test the 3 ring myth. That the openings shouldnt be staked after each other around the bolt, its a myth which have been used during education at firearms training both military and civilian.
It would be nice if you tested it ones and for all.
Tiny whinge. Could you clean the camera lens please? Ta
I thought that EU banned this shit for good. Except law enforcement and military.