ALL the times that OTTO HIGHTOWER was RIGHT in House of the Dragon
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- On a previous video, I spoke about how the show was biased against the characters of the Green faction, and how Otto Hightower was made to seem like a cold and slimy father and political player in the game of thrones. It is because of this portrayal of Otto (the fact that it makes him so unlikeable) that many people often overlook his sage council and advise throughout the season. There are many instances where Otto is often right about things, but no one ever listens to him. So in this video, I thought it might be interesting to discuss some of these moments and break them down. I thought that it would be interesting to discuss some of the times when Otto was right.
Note: All materials in this video are used for the purpose of enhancing my opinions on the topic discussed, not to plagiarise or bastardize any of the intellectual property used. This falls within the guidelines of fair use and so no copyright infringements were intended.
OTHER PLATFORMS 💚
- Twitter X: / th3critclmaestr
Chapters
00:00 - Intro
00:34 - Wanting DAEMON gone
02:42 - Supporting AEGON’s claim
03:26 - ALICENT’s children being in danger
04:40 - A Historical Example: HENRY II & THOMAS BECKETT
05:55 - Wanting to STRIKE FIRST!!!
06:33 - Betrothing RHAENYRA to AEGON
09:00 - What do YOU think???
#ottohightower #otto #teamgreen #houseofthedragon #hotd #fireandblood #gameofthrones #hbomax #max #aegon #aegontargaryen #viserys #viserystargaryen #housetargaryen #targaryens #baratheon #robertbaratheon #rhaenyra #rhaenyratargaryen #daemon #daemontargaryen #teamgreen - บันเทิง
Ironically, often people hate Otto and Alicent for telling the truth.
Bruuuh!!! 😭 Upon closer inspection, their justifications for supporting Aegon are actually sound and rational. 💯
Precisely
People hate them for being mysoginistic and power hungry, not for "telling truth".🙄🙄
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 Well by that logic even Rhaenyra is misogynistic seeing as she married her sons to the Velaryon girls in order to place Luke, a man, as the heir of Driftmark instead thus upholding the same exact system
@@thecriticalmaester9702Aegon II hold on let's not get ahead of ourselves.
People hating Otto for being self serving, ambitious man.
As if every other character in HOTD and GOT and ASOIAF in general is not exactly the same.
RIGHT???? Like this is WESTEROS, when does selflessness and loyalty has ever be good to the lords???
What makes Otto awesome is that his ambition is what’s in the best interest of the realm because Daemon or Rhaenyra would make terrible rulers
@@TheMikster95 yeah Deamon or Rhaenyra would make terrible rulers compared to the Un-drunken not-rapist Aegon Targaryen👏👏
@@TheMikster95 yeah hes basically the same as varys in that regard
@@TheMikster95😂😂😂"rHaEnyRa TerRiBle RuLer" you greens supporters are that cringe? RHAENYRA OR AEGON THE CHILD MOLESTER?
In the world he lives in Otto actually wasn't evil nor was he any different from anyone else. And, like you said, Otto was correct many times and actually consistently gave Viserys sound political advice. Not his fault that Viserys never listened
Exactly. It's like watching someone pass another the ball, but the other person just keeps missing the goal posts.🙄
Otto was manipulative and mad that he wasn’t able to control Daemon
@@loucypherdamorningstarIts not evil thing in Westeros
@@user-df8lp9zq8s
Pardon,
Don’t know what you are referring to
@@loucypherdamorningstar manipulative is not a bad thing , a good hand is suppose to be a master manipulator like tywin or litllefinger , if hes not just mea hes not fit for this job and wont last long , take a look at ned 😉
The fact that most of the show's fanbase loves Daemon is another good indicator of how terrible ruler he would be.
woah!!! LOGIC🤯🤯
Let me guess. un-Drunken not-Rapist Aegon would be the best, right??🤣🤣
@@musiclover9518 Yes, logic. Most of the fanbase are just here for the spectacle, they don't stop to actually think about it. With Otto's help he would be better than his father, who also drink and r@ped (marital r@pe is still r@pe).
@@pedrofernandes2466 hahahaha
80% of the commentors are Blacks.
so dont even go there.
and talking about Otto's help
yes he has already raised his grandson very well to behave like that AND also set an example of Treacherer, usurpur, mass murderer(by burning mysaria's place).
Moreover, he also showed him how to maintain instability by rejecting marriage-bonding with the blacks.
Plus, he showed how to make the realm prosper by starting a war which is very good for the realm by usurping the Named Heir.
So much example set for his "wise" grandson. and so much more to come.🤣🤣🤣
Perhaps you should BE that very fan who "stops to think" rather than pointing out others.
@@musiclover9518 And none of the comentors ever said the oposite of what I said about Daemon in my original comments, so yeah we don't need to go there.
He didn't raised Aegon, he was sent back to Oldtown for telling Viserys one of Rhaenyra's stupidities.
Neithe Otto nor Aegon commanded the burning of Mysaria's house.
Neither Otto nor Aegon decided to reject the marrige with the blacks, and there is no good reason to give Helaena to marry a ruler who will forever have his legitimacy questioned.
He didn't started a war, he tried to make peace with Rhaenyra and would have made it if her cub didn't had maimed the legitimate son of the king.
The named heir lost her claim aftercommiting high treason, she knows that. That is one of the reasons why she was desperate to keep the lie of her children's parentage.
Again, he didn't get to raise Aegon, due to Viserys's another bad decision. But he was a very good advisor.
Not really, but you have my permission to think that. I know how that helps you feel better about yourself. No need to thank me 💚
Ye I like Daemon simply because I like Matt Smith, othewise hes as evil as they could have made him.
If Viserys had listened to Otto in the first place there wouldnt have been a Dance of Dragons. 😭😭😭
Totally agree! 💯
Otto kinda started the dance by crowning someone that his king Viserys didn't choose as heir. It can go both ways. He was right in many instances but his methods are questionable at best.
@ezzoalrawa4973
Someone would put him there if not him.
There is a theme that you aren't getting. Otto is always right, and he acts first before anyone else. He isn't lazy fucking some knights, nor is he stupid that he can't predict an outcome of a bad decision..
@arthurtitangenlpendragon " a war maybe coming in the future so instead of trying to prevent it I should accelerate it and get it over with" is basically what u r saying that otto is thinking.
Still the wrong decision.
@arthurtitangenlpendragon he obviously wasn't smart enough to predict the outcome of his decision to start a war lol.
People hate on Otto so much, but its crazy how he's been so often straightforward and matter of fact with his statements, and how often he's been right.
He's served 2 Targaryen kings, and did so much to their benefit (not that Jaehaerys wasn't solid on his own, but he was getting old and so naturally needed for the Hand to take up more responsibility on his behalf) yet so many people say "he's been trying to split the Targaryens apart, he's the reason for his downfall", and I'm like, what? 😅
He's been a staple and sooid example of an accomplished politician. He gave his daughter to the king, who's given him 4 children, and he didn't even push for Aegon to be named heir till he was reminded by his brother on how things work, and that its his responsibility as Hand to make sure the King sees reason. And so, Otto does just that.
Otto isn't a bad Hand, Viserys is a poor King, that's the situation at hand here. Sure, Otto was quick to want the Blacks all dead on Dragonstone, that's not a very clean and tact method, but once he was given a more peaceful option by Alicent, he took it under advisement, and went through with it. Shows that he can indeed be reasoned with.
He's not Littefinger so many people equate him with, he's so much more, and not as much a snake as Petyr Baylesh was.
Viserys is an amiable and indecisive king + the realm is prosperous and at peace = ???
Clearly, Otto (as Viserys's Hand) has been making the decisions which have led to Viserys's reign being such a success. No one is saying that he is the most upstanding guy on the show, but the man is wise and able. If I were to compare him to a Game of Thrones character, I would compare him with Tywin - though Otto is not nearly as brutal or ruthless as him. Yes, he wants the Blacks dead, but it's because if he doesn't, they are for sure gonna kill him and his entire family. So of course he wants them dead... people who don't understand this are just... 🤦♂🙄 (not saying you, by the way lol; I'm just using your comment to vent about it 😂)
@@thecriticalmaester9702 ohhhh!!!
so Otto wants what is best for the realm, right??
You know what was best for the realm???
Peace !! which could be achieved if they agreed to marry Helaena to Jacerys as Rhaenyra proposed.
But no. They have always wanted the power for themselves.
"Otto is Wise and able" my foot
He knew there would be war (which is NOT best for the realm) if he usurped the throne. BUT He anyway usurped >cuz he wanted the power for himself > not what is best for the realm.
Regarding, "Yes, he wants the Blacks dead, but it's because if he doesn't, they are for sure gonna kill him and his entire family. So of course he wants them dead... people who don't understand this are just... 🤦♂🙄"
BRUH, we blacks understand that.
NOW what YOU need to understand is Ofcourse the Blacks want them dead cuz they usurped the blacks AND on top of that you f*king just said that Otto wants them dead.
@@musiclover9518least aggressive black fan
@@musiclover9518Alicent attempted to win the throne for Aegon through a Great Concil like what had happened between Viserys and Rhaenys. Not war.
Otto had all reasons to believe that the realm wouldn't support Rhaenyra: The result of the Great Council before that.
And if the Greens didn't usurp her. 1, Alicent's children lives would be at risk. If Alicent had any doubt on Otto words when he was dismissed, all the doubts were removed after the Aemond's eye incident: Rhaenyra put the well-being of her siblings in no high places.
2. Even if the realm support her, and her reign were peaceful, you think Daemon wouldn't plot agaisnt his step sons in favor of his? The Dance would still happen, with different dancers.
@@thecriticalmaester9702I always think that Otto was a low-key Tywin
Otto wasn’t evil. He was simply a man of his time in the world he lived in. I think some of the audience is quick to forget that this is a different world than the one we live in.
Or, rather, he's evil-ish, but so is everyone else.
@@TheGoodLuche’s gray, like many characters in ASOIAF.
@@TheGoodLuche may have a selfish desire for his family to rule after his daughter's marriage, but in general he holds a 1000 foot view of the landscape and weighs the outcomes. In that since, he is the character that seems to strive for stability of the kingdom.
@@TheGoodLuc he's not evil, he's gray , and all other people are gray , atleast he happen to be the best game of throne player of his time,,, and that is making dumb player arround him hating 😏
Otto is literally like every other ASOIAF character, I don't understand the hate he gets
Rabid Rhaenyra stans. Mostly mindless normies. They want her to be Daenerys 2.0. Rhaenyra is an exremely corrupt, selfish, spoiled brat. A dishonest coward at heart. Ended up historically despised by all the people, who called her Maegor.
"He's a wormy co**suc*er"- Paulie, Sopranos.
he get hate because he's too good at what he does and is always several step ahead of the fav charachter of slow minded normies (rhaenyra) ,,,,, if he was helping rhaenyra theiy would all blow him and say how amazingly clever he is , but since he's beating the sht out of her , theiy are hating 🤣🤣
I've always thought it was hilarious that the only reason Viserys is king is because the realm already choose a king over a woman, they already told him what they prefer
Otto isn’t even that self serving, less so than the other players in the dance. He’s just pragmatic and understands the game more. None of his decisions that benefit him aren’t also on a grander scale beneficial. The reason he is hated is that the Targaryens made a game where they had every advantage which they forced Westeros to play in hoping it would serve them, but unfortunately for them Otto learned the rules and played it better, and he always plays by the rules
All facts 💯
"We light the way."
Truer words have never been spoken nor have there been house words that truly defined their house. My favorite house in Westeros by far.
The fanbase doesn't hate Otto for what he does, they hate Otto for who he is and nothing he can do will save him in the eyes of this majority. At no point does Otto commit a truly cruel or stupid act. His opinions are wise, his intelligence and erudition are recognized by all. He has concern for the common interest and no tendency towards tyranny. He is in fact everything one could hope for in a good leader. But all this has no importance in the eyes of the majority, because he embodies a figure who is immediately perceived as manipulative and ambitious, that of the advisor or the minister. This might sound funny or excessive, but Otto is the equivalent of Jafar in "Aladdin" for the fanbase.
On the other hand, he is a character presented in a one-dimensional way : unlike Daemon, Viserys or Corlys, we never enter into his privacy, we only see the politician, the cold monster. The show ignores the man. Alicent could be perceived the same way, because of the mother-in-law stereotype but unlike Otto, we can observe her in different dimensions and she is saved by the fact of being initially presented as an adolescent.
We must also keep in mind that the majority of the public is in fact quite "legitimistic" : House Targaryen is well known to the general public while House Hightower is only known to readers and those who have a real interest in Martin's work.
Finally, it is proven that the public will always become more attached to the characters presented first. In the show, the Targaryens are introduced before the Hightowers.
For all these reasons, the majority of the public supports the Blacks and will continue to do so, whatever their faults and whatever the qualities of the Greens. But for me, Alicent and Otto are my favorite characters, just like House Hightower is my favorite house in Westeros.
SIMPLE!!!!
People hate Otto cuz he is a treacherous usurper.
Reed Richard reaching here
Otto did everything in his power to spoil the bond between his king and his brother.
All because he couldn’t continue Daemon and knew his reign as hand ended with Viserys.
@@loucypherdamorningstar Otto only reported truths to the king. When Daemon celebrates Baelon's death in an orgy, or drags his niece into a brothel to compromise her, it is not Otto who forces him to do it. Besides, by doing this, Daemon shows that he is just as much of a manipulator as Otto, simply being less subtle.
@@alessiodandolo1460
No he didn’t.
The rumor about Baelor was false, but Otto happily reported it to sow discontent.
Taking the princess there was in bad taste, but that is about it.
Otto did everything to strip Daemon of power.
It was Daemon that cleaned up the city watch, made them the gold cloaks and the streets safe whenever tournaments were held.
Otto made sure to diminish every good Daemon did and magnify any misstep he made.
Otto was not for the realm nor Viserys.
He was scheming for the Hightower and incensed that Daemon was aware of his cunning.
@@loucypherdamorningstar Don't invent what the author didn't write. In the show the rumor is true, in the book, it's a rumor, so nothing confirms or denies it. Nothing even indicates that it was Otto who reported the rumor to the King, even if it seems likely. The fact that Daemon apparently does not try to defend himself and his attitude towards Alicent Hightower's children later, however, are clues that Daemon could have uttered such words.
Otto didn't destroy what Daemon did, since the Watch still exists after Daemon. On the other hand, what is very clear is that Daemon has neither the temperament nor the skills to be a good ruler, and on this point Otto is absolutely right. For the rest, their rivalry is above all personal and the goal is not to determine who is right and who is wrong.
On the other hand, I assert that Otto is criticized for doing what everyone around him does, with less subtlety: serving his own interests. Otto, Rhaenyra, Daemon, Alicent, Corlys... they all play the game of thrones. Some are simply better than others. Does Otto serve the interests of his house? Yes, undoubtedly. He is neither the only nor the first, and that does not make him the “bad guy” of the story.
Otto and Tywin are very similar as they are right in their minds, and in a feudal era they are probably the pinnacle of what a man can be, but when you apply our morality to them they are quite fucked in the head.
They both try (and Tywin succeeds) to murder children in pursuit of their goals. Tywin gets away with this as he is far more assertive and physically powerful as the Lord of Casterly Rock, whilst Otto is more illusive and snake like.
Tywin mistrusts his children's judgment while Otto molds Alicent into the queen worthy of his service
Tywin was a brutal narcissist. What he claimed was necessary really often wasn't. He constantly engages in gaslighting to shed a better light on his actions and crimes. Pragmatism was rarely his motivation. Brutality and a disregard for societal conventions was.
This is not true of Otto.
Honestly Otto comes off to me as more likable version of Tywin. He at least isn't abusive to his children nor is he a war criminal.
I have to say, I lean more towards the Greens when I think critically about everyone’s situation.
There are actually a lot more reasons why the lords of Westeros might want Aegon to be their king instead of Rhaenyra.
1. You're right that it's because of the Andal customs. Aegon's claim is based on it so the lords of Westeros are more likely to support him just because of that. In the book the only people who support Rhaenyra are the ones who want their daughters to be able to inherit lands, or who want to inherit lands themselves as women (e.g. Lady Jeyne of the Eyrie). I imagine that the only reason why Cregan Stark because so fond of Jacaerys in the first place is because he has bastard sister and Jacaerys is a bastard as well, He probably wants her to be legitimized. However lords who have inherited their lands as a result of male primogeniture mostly support Aegon.
2.Aegon's council has more experience. Otto, Alicent, and all his other councillors have more experience governing than Rhaenyra and hers. I dont understand why people would think that she would be a better choice practically. People only like rHAENYRA BECAUSE Its a big popularty contest and they think that shes a feminist badass, but actually the greens are better at governing.
3. All the Targaryen kings were males before so there's precedent. Aegon's claim is the better one simply off of precedent and law alone.
Otto might be a better councillor, but Alicent wasn't. She might not be as worse as Cersei, but she is certainly not better than Rhaenyra since Alicent has shown to be a puppet without agency of herself, while Rhaenyra is her own. And you have to remember, like Joffrey, there is so much good councilors can do, and Aegon was shown as having flaws, not as horrible as Joffrey. It is a popularity war, like basically every other tv series out there, but saying the support for Rhaenyra is about Rhaenyra being a "feminist icon" is giving her and GRR Martin less credit for his writing. It is about the likeability of the characters.
And speaking of male primogeniture custom, I think the story tried to represent English history where there were Queens ruling despite the law of succession being Male Primogeniture, in fact, it was only during the reign Queen Elizabeth II that the UK officially changed their succession law to Equal Primogeniture.
And guess what, these previous queens had male lord supporters who put them on the throne. The reason for this is not because the law supports women or the lords were the lovers of the queen as people believed, but because life is pragmatics, and in the Medieval Dark Ages, Law wasn't absolute like they are today. In absolute monarchy, laws change depending on the monarch. Even in medieval times, lords tended to support based on their gains and other factors, like honor after being sworn to a female heir for example. "gender" was only one of many leeways the lords used to get around laws being set by a monarch. This is called power relation, Monarch exerts powers to the subjects, the subjects resist by setting decorum/expectation of their own to the monarch (tho again, in medieval time, it is more one way, Monarch to subjects, than two ways interaction like the society today). In real life, these leeways often set by the church (during medieval time), while in ASOIAF it is set by the Andals Custom. Again, as the setting is in medieval, it is hardly as absolute as say, the US constitution. Who wins the war sets the law.
4. the Bastards. They are a guarantee of a civil war.
We dont F*king care what the Westerosis want.
For us, Aegon is a Foolish Rapist Drunkard who does not even qualify to be the Cupbearer, forget about being the King.
I have to disagree with you on Alicent. Alicent isn’t like cersei and is far more intelligent than Rhaenyra especially politically. Alicent knows the game and how to win as a woman,rarely has she made mistakes eagerly that would jeopardize her family’s reputation/allies. The same can not be said for cersei or Rhaenyra both had 3 known bastards and flaunted them around in court. They both tried putting clear bastards in line to inherit. THIS IS THE MOST IDIOTIC MISTAKE both of them made especially Rhaenyra. She set up a scheme to murder her husband (A VELARYON) while wanting rumors to spread that she was responsible for it. Isolating the velaryons the second most powerful houses. She married DAEMON one of the most hated men alive. Rhaenyra made so many irrational ignorant idiotic mistakes that cost her the throne. Alicent & Otto ran the kingdom smoothly for 10+ years unlike the selfish,immature,impulsive duo rhaenyra nd daemon
Plus the fact the ascension of her bastard children would start another civil war between them and the children she had via Daemon
Off topic: The way Otto hugged Alicent after telling her the truth about Aegon needing to claim the throne broke my heart. You could see in his face that he didn’t want to tell his daughter that and it hurt him to see her cry. While Otto is manipulative, no one can say he doesn’t love his daughter.
It's crazy that a good chunk of the fanbase would defend Tywin Lannister on many things, yet Otto who doesn't seem to have a brutal streak; and whilst using his children to advance his status(like the majority of nobles in this world do) - does seem far more affectionate and loving towards his daughter than Tywin ever was to his children.
Otto schemed for decades and actually got who he wanted on the throne, Tywin just took advantage of the situation he was in. Otto>tywin
"Because Alicent, is a fool" 😂 this caught me of guard
Facts, though 😅
@@thecriticalmaester9702
Yeah you're telling the truth, watched house of the dragon with my nephew he pretty much said everything you said. As much as Otto was unlikeable from an unbiased POV he was right most of the time.
As I’m rooting for the Greens, that content is based af!
Thanks for speaking the truth!
Otto and the queen that never was, are the 2 wisest people on the show.
Sometimes, the queen-who-never-was can be wise, and sometimes she can contradict her own wisdom. This can sometimes make her seem a bit hypocritical. For example, she will tell Corlys that it is important to name Baela as his heir upon his death, but she will abandon that same idea and support Lucerys's claim instead. So she can be a bit hypocritical. But, to be fair, the circumstances sometimes push her towards making these type of decisions.
I hate Rhaenys with a passion. Looking forward to seeing the battle of rooks rest this next season.
@@KingSlayer_. Hatred is a poison, mate.
@@KingSlayer_.this made me laugh so hard because I know what happens at the end of that battle😂
Idk chief she lost my respect in the last scene of season 1
Otto Hightower is a milder version of Tywin Lannister. And I like it.
Otto is like Varys
He wants to serve a king worthy of his loyalty
@@equusquaggaquagga536 Which proves youre too stupid to know thats not what either characters motivations are.
hey say what you want about otto, but he really did try to find a solution that would make everyone happy
I agree.
He was absolutely self serving, but he had the temperament for rule, knew how to play the game of thrones within the legitimate rules of the gamd, and actually firmed his plans in such a way that he also took the interests of the realm as a whole into consideration.
The Greens and the Baratheons did nothing wrong.
NOTHING!
I love Otto! He's wise, strategic and kinda reminds me of Tywin Lannister himself.
Wise ? Well, he caused an unecessary war that killed ten of thousands of people.
@@ousseynougueye5949 No. Rhaenyra and her pride did.
@@gooby214 Don’t be stupid. If he accepted Rhaenyra to be queen as the king decided, and didn’t push his grand-son to claim the Iron Throne, there would be no war obviously.
@@ousseynougueye5949 Don't be stupid, blackcel. Only Aegon II was the true king. Rhaenyra had no business to that throne. The will of her corrupt pathetic father can go to hell. Dead men don't have authority. Aegon was the king, and his will mattered. All Rhaenyra had to do was bend the knee. Mald harder. So glad she got what she deserved. Horrible "human being" she was.
@@ousseynougueye5949 The Blackfires have been fighting for the throne for five generations because of just one rumor about the illegitimacy of the king. At the same time, Jake is obviously a bastard, so even if the blacks and the greens had reconciled, the war would have started sooner or later, perhaps in a few years, and lies between their descendants, but war was inevitable
I don't think Alicent was a fool. IMO she was just a 15 year old girl.
Seconded. She’s a sweetheart.
Agree, poor girl was forced into a marriage with a man who's like 50
That comment was in reference to Alicent when she is older, as her belief that Rhaenyra or her allies wouldn't kill her children to secure succession is naive and foolish.
@@abeersabih2746 she was 21 when she married viserys who himself was 38 , it's rhaenyra who was 15,,,,,,,, and alicent wasnt forced to by her father , she wanted to marry the king as well , she was ambitious about the idea of being queen
The bias comes from the show and the audience wanting Rhaeneyra to be the hero queen without flaws. Basically Daenerys 2.0, but even more flawless. Therefore, anything she or her members do must be genius, righteous and justified no matter how shortsighted or stupid. And the team that rivals her are the evil bad guys.
Its sad because Otto isnt even despicable or anything, he doesnt rape anyone, randomly kill people or anything like that, hes just ''bad guy coded'' like he looks scheemy and untrustworthy, if he looked any other way he would be universally loved
Fully agree. People only hate Otto because of the way that he's been presented on the show. When you actually consider his actions, he hasn't really done anything that morally reprehensible - unless you think that him looking out for his family's interests is morally reprehensible. In that case, you'll have to question the morals of every character on the show, because EVERYONE is looking out for their House's interests, even the Targaryens (including Rhaenyra).
It's the fate of house hightower to be ridiculed for doing the logically right choice. There was one hightower who had to lockdown and quarantine old town after an outbreak of sickness. And as soon as it was rescinded the smallfolk lynched him.
What do you mean unlikeable character ? I loved Otto from the beginning..
by far the most reasonable character along with tyland lannister and a sign is that these two are greens tells alot
Just a daily reminder that Viserys was remembered as “the Peaceful” because of the decisions Otto and Alicent made during his reign as his advisors/regents.
Every single decision Viserys made by himself directly laid a foundation for the Dance of the Dragons to happen and was therefore everything other than peaceful.
Aegon and Rhaenyra would not have worked in the show. Their age diffrence is 17 years. That would mean that at the earliest Aegon would be 12 and Rhaenyra 29 when they would consumate their marriage. 29 is the age that most woman become grandmothers. It would be a huge risk to waste Rhaenyra's fertility like that. In the books the age diffrence was 8 years that would be way more mangable.
29 is not old and definitly not the age women become grandmothers. Most women can easily give birth to children till they are at least 40 years old, and as seen in the book and show, Rhaenyra definitly did not have any problems with fertility. She would have easily given birth to many children if this marriage would have bean carried out.
@@arthurzwachte8904 it is just a huge gamble. After 25 fertility rates drop slightly by most women. And Aegon is only 12 so that would be very young as well. Most boys can concive childeren at 14 - 15. That would make Rhaenyra early 30s at best. What is very old for a Westerosi woman to have her first child. There are very few women in a medival society that have their first child by 40. Also in Westeros most noble girls marry at 14. If their first child is a daughter and she marries also at 14 too than you became a grandmother at 30.
It is possible but a very unlikely scenario. Also Rhaenyra need to stay a virgin until 30. Knowing her that would be very hard.
@@lasloapollo4312please speak some facts not some redpill stuff. Woman dont lose their fertlity at age 29. Nearly 90% of the 30 yo get pregnant after one year of trying. At the age of 40 its 60 %
@@tanjaceren984 most women are getting the first signs of menopause at 45. I think it is a huge risk in the medieval age to get your first child at 35 or older. That are Just facts
@@lasloapollo4312 most woman enter menopause at the age 51
People always told me that Otto tried to isolate Viserys from Daemon out of ambition. However…
When has Daemon ever EVER shown Otto that he isn’t a threat to the crown?! Otto served as a hand for a long time. It was too long ago when two Targaryen brothers brought chaos to Westeros for ambition and war Maegor and Aenys and Aeny’s children.
We know that Daemon loves his bro. But Daemon also loves power. Daemon is ambitious reckless ruthless merciless acts first thinks later, casually commits violence consistently. Why wouldn’t Otto think that Daemon is a threat to his much weaker older brother and to the realm? He’s not scared of Rhaenyra he’s scared of Daemon.
And by medieval feudal standards he did what any father would do and secure the highest most beneficial, not necessarily happy, match for his daughter. The King is the most eligible man ever. So he secures her a the best match. I’m not saying he did something good as Alicent was not happy but that was what fathers did.
And yes by Machiavelli from the Prince, in order for your reign to be secure you can’t have any threats aka potential heirs who can usurp you. In a world where male line goes over female line which Jaehaerys great council reinforced, as long as Aegon Aemond and Daeron live then Rhaenyra will never be secure especially when she intended to crown a bastard her bastard after her. Rhaenyra in the show versus the book may not have the stomach for kin slaying but Daemon who has no love for Otto or Alicent and by extension Aegon Aemond and Daeron certainly wouldn’t. He’s scared rightfully so as well.
And even if Aegon chooses to be a figurehead we all know Otto is a competent leader and Aegon also has other people to provide good guidance such as Alicent Criston etc. people who know how to lead from experience. Rhaenyra will be influenced by Daemon who is not a good influence.
Otto really could’ve really won this war if alicent didn’t stop him
My favourite notification🤩🥳🥳🥳 Another great video, well done!!! I cant stand Otto but from time to time he does make valid points, although I do think he is motivated by self interests so I get why he doesn't get listened to.
Yeah, he is a very unlikeable character, but he does make a lot of sense a lot of the time. If Viserys had listened to him, perhaps the Dance of Dragons would've been prevented. But I'm glad you enjoyed the video. 👍💯
I'm surprised that this channel has so few subscribers
THANK you. I'm a book fan and, despite knowing the events, I still side with the Greens and stand with them and I hope the show stops trying to force the Black's as the all powerful and the greatest when they're truly worse.
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I want to see how the show and the Black fan's try to justify "Blood and Cheese". Maybe the writers will try to say that it was a plan by the Green's or something, lol.
I already know that Rhaenyra will be except from all responsibility, so it's just a matter of how involved Daemon will be in the scheme. Watch how they somehow make it Halaena or Alicent's fault, or maybe even Otto. 🙄
@@thecriticalmaester9702 They will say Otto did it to INSPIRE Aegon II. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra is released from all responsibility for Laenors death(because it was faked)and Vaemonds execution(because Daemon did it without her order).
Welp they watered down daemons involvement and made it alicent and Cole’s fault lol
Nice content 👌 ❤
Thank you.
Hand of the king is a position that works all work and takes all the blame from the realm and from the king he serves. People hate him because of jealousy of his powers and competency. The audience loves a warrior with bad personality because he's cool but hates a good competent administrator because it's dumb job. I know from experience.
King Henry II did not mean his words and he never wished for the Archbshop of Canterbury Thomas Beckett's death.
My point exactly. They misunderstood his intentions and killed the bishop thinking that it would please their king… and Henry II cannot punish lords who are serving him loyally like that, and by not punishing them it looks like he wanted it to happen. It’s the same with Rhaenyra.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 The King Henry II performed a public act of penance on 12 July 1174 at Canterbury, when he publicly confessed his sins, and then allowed each bishop present, including Foliot, to give him five blows from a rod, then each of the 80 monks of Canterbury Cathedral gave the king three blows. The king then offered gifts to Becket's shrine and spent a vigil at Becket's tomb.
I'm surprised people find Otto unlikable, he's been a loyal hand & a great counselor in general.
Otto just try to protect his interest
Otto regrets all of his life decisions up to this point. Try letting any of this to Mary I or Elizabeth I.
hes the perfect hand hes decisions make the realm stable if Viserys married Rhaenyra to Aegon like Otto suggested the war would never happen
Exactly!
Yes I agree!
I really don’t see why Daemon rounding up all the criminals of the city was a bad thing, especially at a time when all those wealthy foreigners would be attending for the festivities.
The real reason Otto didn’t want Daemon around was that if he and Viserys were together, his BS wouldn’t fly.
when i first watched the show i hated allicent and otto then my 2nd go around, i realized they were the only two sane people lol
Daemon would immediately kill aegon and his brother if aegon let rhaenyra take the throne.
Otto was one of the biggest driving forces to divide the kingdom.
He claimed Daemon was overly ambitious but actually it was him as well.
Otto was not wrong
Otto was not wrong
Team Green💚 but honestly they all suck😂
💚💚💚 Queen Alicent.
Yes, but the Blacks suck harder tho
Having Viserys marry Laena might be beneficial but that is just feeding Corlys' ego. I think Corlys Velayron would have been willing to kill Rhaenyra for his own goals before he started to become more passive and less ambitious after losing Laena and Laenor as well as having near-death experiences due to being old, sick, and getting injured in war. Unlike Corlys, Otto put aside his own ego many times, stayed in the Red Keep to help govern Westeros, and acted as one of the only realists within Viserys' court. Otto wanting Aegon as king is similar to what the commoners in Kingslanding want. Plus, Otto was right about Rhaenyra when the latter became a tyrant in the end. Although Aegon II was a bumbling idiot at first, the Dance of the Dragons showed how brave, courageous, and decisive Aegon II became. He even listens to his advisors well. Unlike Rhaenyra, Aegon II actually fought in the war while Rhaenyra did nothing with Caraxes and could have helped Rhaenys.
Most of the essay I'm onboard with, but hard disagree that Otto was right about warning Alicent that Rhaenyra would be forced to put her kids to the sword to secure her claim. Westeros is definitely a sexist society, but sexism doesn't commit coups by itself: people with sexist ideas and armies commit coups. Rhaenyra was the established heir apparent, she had the blessing of the last king, the lords and the court sworn to her, and all the dragons in her arsenal. The day Viserys died, she would have had the entire country shouting "long live the queen" if Otto hadn't spent half his damn career building a powerbase around Aegon. Remember when Viserys died and 90% of the small council was ready to shift to coup mode? All Otto's doing.
Normally Otto had excellent judgement, but in this case he created the very threat to Rhaenyra's claim that he warned Alicent about, the definition of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Otto's tragic flaw as a character is that he was blinded by ambition, and he destroyed his entire family along with half of Westeros because of it.
Don’t care who ya are, I’m a Green supporter all the way. My boys the Baratheons support them so I’m all in.
Can't say he was right when everyone and including him only wanted to be ruler of the kingdom especially not knowing Viserys true intent of preparing for Winter is coming
If people want proof Otto and alicent are good rulers look at how stable the realm was while they were in charge, viserys was dying and Rhaenyra and daemon were doing whatever the hell they wanted with no interest in responsibility
Bingo
Otto actually suggest half incest when he proposed the match between Rhaenera and Aegon. Then when it was not accepted he went full blown on the incest lol
Well tbf Viserys and Aemma were cousins.
Aftwr watching HOT D for the 7th time i figured Otto wasnt that bad
You did not call Bobby B a fool
Our favorite King but he was a drunk fool.
I think all of the context you omitted panits a very different picture as well as the comparison's you make cleary showing your own biases
Definitely not right idea about Aegon & Rhaneyra. Let me tell you about Cleopatra the Great and Ptolemy XIII. Exactly identical situation. Two (half)siblings who inherited crown together and married because daddy dear wished so. She was adult woman, aged 18 👩🏻🦰. He was 10 or 11👦🏼. His advisors wanted power 🤏🏻🤏🏻. Many quarrels. Big civil war ⚔⚔. No consummation of marriage. Cleopatra having bastard 👶🏻 to ensure continuing the line, as her husband was too young (or later: too angry with her). And finally big battle and young King drowning during escape from battlefield at age 13/14 🤴🏼🌊. But it isn't even end of story! Cleopatra married another brother. She was 21. He was 12👦🏼. And whole thing again. No consummation. Another bastard (though stillborn this time). And brother dead at 15 🧑🏼🪦. Cleopatra won her throne and ruled another 14 years and her first-born was co-king alongside her. Win for her 🏆 - but not very great for little brothers though, as they died young and childless. Why I think that marriage of Rhaneyra and Aegon would be an equal disaster...???😆😆🤣🤣
Nope the betrothal to Aegon seemed like a logical choice for me🤷
Another great video, I commend you for trying to discuss with a lot of these mind numbing team Rhaenyra fans because my god r they salty in the comments lol New Subscriber heading ur way
F Otto, I’ll get the 7 digits from your momma for a dollar tomorrow. Daemon was the king Westeros deserved
Go Greens
Nah him ignoring the problem with the Stepstones was bad advice. Him being self interested caused him to send his daughter to seduce the king. & advise the king to marry her saying he’d hate to marry for duty. Then advised the king to name Rhaenyra heir only out of hate & fear of Daemon. Then went back on it to promote his grandson. Lord Strong was way more level headed & way less self interested he was the better hand. Otto also can’t control Aegon nor will he outlive him. & if you’ve read the books you know I’m right. Otto would’ve had a better chance on Rhaenyra’s council than Aegon’s. The marriage is ridiculous for Aegon & Rhaenyra cause the show made them too far apart in age she’s 16yrs older than Aegon. So her child bearing years would be cut short it didn’t make sense by the time Aegon is 16 she’ll be 32. The life span in this time period being shorter & the fertility age & dangerous of pregnancy & giving birth was too great to risk that was horrible advise. It made more sense in the books cause I think she’s only like 8-9yrs older than him & in the books it was alicent not Otto suggests it
Wrong about “westerosi culture”, it’s actually valyrian culture. It’s moreover frowned upon in westeros, which was the whole reason for the faith uprising.
I mean even a broken watch is right twice a day lol. Otto was right in many instances but he was also wrong in many others. Maybe you should try to highlight those.
Otto was right about Daemon but wrong about his grandson, Aegon. Neither of them is worthy of being King. But he chose the interest of his family over the good of the realm. As the King's Hand, he was supposed to follow the King's commands and wishes but he secretly planned for the usurpation. His disloyalty to his King is undefendable.
Aegon would have had proper council from otto but the murder of his child and angered by it changed his objectives from defending his position to revenge.
Aegon would have had proper council from otto but the murder of his child and angered by it changed his objectives from defending his position to revenge.
The problem is that everybody is right at some points in their own way but in the end all of them are at fault and they brought much sorrow and almost extinction of dragons. Viserys was in deed weak king. He was never good at politics and he did not take some very important measures for politics (for example marrying Laena). He made his daughter an heir but I feel like he did too little to educate her and too little to keep her image in eyes of public good enough. He spoiled her and not prepared for the being a queen. Somebody had an idea why she wasn't hand of the king and got sent away and Otto was called back in. Some people might like this solution, but as being the king who wants to put his daughter on the throne it is pretty weak decision. Rhanyera had the right to fight for the throne since it was promised, but I indeed was angry multiple times how little she did for it and how much against it. She just wanted love yeah sure, but if she wants to be queen her bastard kids should have been a secret or not exist at all. Viserys had a lot to do with how much his children with Alicent became unlikable mad and cruel, sine he never loved them as much. He never cared for Alicent too much either. Otto was plotting and he entered a dangerous game by pushing his daughter as queen and personally it was a cruel move, making her marry (in the book actually he already planted her to marry the previous king) a bit older and sickly Viserys. It makes me sad as well that actually Alicent and Rhanyera could have been friends and Alicent would have supported Rhanyera if she wouldn't have gotten so hot in her pants. Rhanyera should have assassinated Criston Cole when he suggested her running away with him. She should have seen him as an enemy, who knows her darkest secret and at the time he wasn't anybody special.
That's the point of the whole games of thrones, nobody is trully good, nobody is trully right or wrong and that's why it is hard to take any side tbh.
otto is a full schemer in the sense that he pushed his daughter to mrry the king in his time of grief so he could grab power. Otto was a man who was nothing apart from his hand of the king position. He never truly cared about the king or the people, Just his interests. Rhaenyra for the most part was a sane person and had no ill will towards people. marrying her to damon would be a sane choice because demon himself was a reasonable man.. daemon hated beecause he saw ortto for what he is, a grubby power hungry man who is trying to rise above his station by using his weak brother. Rhaenya wouldnt have gone out of her way to kill her half siblings till they killed her kid which again was indirectly instigated by otto. If th tagaryens suffered, they suffered because of the ambition of otto and his daughter as they fanned the flmes of this whole thing.
Daemon? A reasonable man? Did we watch the same show? He refused his brother’s aid in the war just because it hurt his ego, consciously damaged Rhaenyra’s honor and put her in a dangerous situation all because he believed that this way Viserys would wed her to him for the same reason Otto married Alicent off - to claim the throne through her and fucked things up when the latter didn’t. Stole a dragon egg just to wreck havoc. He’s anything but reasonable and Rhaenyra ends up being not much better after adopting some of her uncle’s lessons. Should I reminded you she wanted Aemond “questioned sharply” just because he called her sons bastards in a children’s fight? This doesn’t convince me at all that she wouldn’t consider Alicent's sons a threat and wouldn't have done something worse to them as she didn't have any sibling love for them anyway and was quite hostile. It would be the Mary I vs Elizabeth I situation with one always being paranoid about the other, questioning them about every little thing, putting them to prison and etc.
Otto made a hole and fell into it. He appoints Rhaenyra as heir on the basis that she is the king's first child, despite the events of the Great Council 101 that women do not inherit above men, but he hates Damon so he does not want him to remain the heir. Yes, Damon is the worst person who could be king, but that doesn't matter. He's a man and that's all that matters, (Rhaenyra, will you warm the seat of the heir until my daughter Fauk the King and bear him a son?)
He was the one who put the idea in Viserys' head that Rhaenyra would inherit him on the basis that she was the eldest. If he had not opened his mouth, all of this would not have happened. If Damon remains heir based He's is a man, and Viserys has a son, then Damon will be replaced, naturally, as in the line of succession the son comes before the uncle.Now he has to face the consequences
House Hightower: Machiavellian merchant princes vs House Targaryen: eugenics sorcerer-kings.
Hightowers we're king's before the Targs
Hightowers we're king's before the Targs e
Otto doesn't do this because is the truth ot the right thing, he does it because of ambition
Yes, he does have ambition. But he was also right and Viserys should've listened.
Wanting Daemon Gone: You can say that Daemon would be a risk and a threat to everything that would disrupt the stability and peace within Westeros, but you can't deny that he is the necessary evil. You cannot ignore the fact that Westeros has been nothing but a war zone way before the Targaryens invaded and long after their rule was cemented and was over in Robert's rebellion. Otto wants Daemon gone not just the fact that he sees him as Maegor the Cruel Reborn, but it's also the fact that Damon cannot be persuaded, and he can see right through Otto. Just like every person on the small council can see that Otto overplayed his hand, and they know how ambitious he is, but one man's ambition can cause disruption to the prosperous peace that was made.
Supporting Aegon’s Claim: supporting his grandson's claim is one thing, but his actions proved that even though the realm prefers men to rule, it still creates a problem within their families. In this case, there is enough evidence to point at the fact that the king before Viserys named his heir, and as a matter of fact, Viserys never changed his mind about replacing Rhaenyra with his son, Aegon, for 20 years. People had to accept that she would be the Queen of Westeros. look at the aftermath of Luke’s death, Rhaenyra has way more support than Aegon did.
Still, the problem was with the Targaryens because Viserys did not make her make royal progress or gain more support for her claim other than the King's royal decree, so Aegon's claim only falls on tradition alone. It does not have the royal decree to put him on the throne so that he will be remembered as the Usurper instead of Rhaenyra.
Alicent’s Children in Danger: that one is 50/50, in my opinion, because Allison can see that her children are in danger to Rhaenyra way more than Rhaenyra and her children, being a threat to Aegon.
Rhaenyra would have granted positions at court for her siblings, but there were other ways for her to get rid of her rival claimants seeking to give the Kingsguards position to her younger brother, Daeron. She can give Aegon a ship and let him go to Essos.
As for Aemond, he would either take the black or he would have to be executed because he would be the only one out of the greens; that would be a problem. So, just like Otto, seeing Daemon as a second Maegor, Aemond would be a second Daemon; She could prevent bloodshed if she had just accepted Rhaenyra’s offer.
Rhaenyra and Aegon’s Betrothal: I would say that Aegon would be the one that has all the power over Rhaenyra because he is the one they want on the throne, and he would be the one they all would want to have business with rather than Rhaenyra. I would say that marriage would be the same as Robert's marriage with Cersei
*Wanting Daemon gone:* You're right when you say that Otto doesn't like Daemon because he cannot be persuaded, but I don't think that you fully grasp why Otto is so concerned about that. It's not just the fact that Daemon cannot be persuaded, but it's also the fact that he is so violent and unpredictable. Daemon lacks political instincts and he isn't diplomatic nor even reasonable when it comes to decision-making. He usually deals with a problem by swinging a sword at it, which would be fine in situations pertaining to warfare (which is why he does so well during the Dance of the Dragons) but it's not great during times of peace when the ruler needs to make sober, rational decisions. Daemon is too rash and unpredictable. If he were to be king (or even be allowed to influence the king), the realm would descend to chaos because he would be fighting all\ the time instead of using diplomacy. Say what you want about Otto Hightower but you cannot deny the fact that the man is a brilliant politician and that he was the primary reason why Viserys' reign was so peaceful and prosperous.
*Supporting Aegon's claim:* Viserys does name Rhaenyra his heir, and throughout the years he never once wavers from that decision, even going so far as to confirm it several times to Rhaenyra and sometimes to other people... in private. Viserys always confirms his decision in private directly to Rhaenyra and others, but he never again does it in public, especially after the birth of his sons. After the birth of Aegon and Aemond, it would've been the easiest thing to just send ravens all over the realm saying "Listen, I know I just had a son just now, but I just want to let you know that my mind hasn't changed about the line of succession. Rhaenyra is still the heir to my throne." But Viserys never does this, and that's why some lords feel as though the line of succession changed when Aegon was born. Otto supports Aegon's claim because he truly believes that Aegon is the rightful heir, and there are many other lords throughout the realm that support that notion and believe in that fully. They're not wrong for holding that belief either, especially since it's based on a custom that stretches back a hundred years.
*Alicent's children being in danger:* Yes, the show changes Alicent and Rhaenyra's relationship, so Alicent knows Rhaenyra and she must know that Rhaenyra would never harm her kids... but can she be so sure? Rhaenyra has lied to her so many times - about sleeping with Daemon and Ser Criston Cole, about her sons being true born Targaryens, about Laenor being the father of those children. Rhaenyra constantly lies and she doesn't realize that her fibs have consequences for other people. It's particularly why Viserys is always so frustrated with her, and the reason why Otto doesn't trust her. Otto is not wrong for telling Alicent that Rhaenyra will have to kill Alicent's children to secure her claim for the throne. Even if she were to send Aegon away on a ship to Essos, as long as he's alive, there will still be some lords who will question her rule and try to rebel against it in Aegon's name. It happened with Jon Snow in Game of Thrones even though he never actually wanted to rule. It happens in the main series of books with Dornish conspiracy, as the Dornish begin to conspire against the Lannisters after they find out that Daenerys Targaryen is still alive and that she has 3 dragons. The Dornish were even conspiring to re-install Viserys on the throne, unbeknownst of Viserys. So, as long as a valid heir still lives, there will always be some lords that will try to rally behind him - even if it's for the sake of their own selfish and political interests. Therefore, Rhaenyra will HAVE TO kill Aegon and Aemond (and even Halaena and their children) if she wants to secure her power. If she doesn't then her rule will always be questioned, and her power will never be secure. And even Rhaenyra doesn't order the deaths of Aegon and his children herself, nothing would stop her vassal lords from doing it on her behalf. One of her vassal lords might do it to win her favour and take away the weight of the responsibility off of her shoulders (like Tywin did for Robert Baratheon, for example). It's possible that even Daemon would do it. much in the same way that he sent Blood and Cheese to kill Aegon's son and heir. What's worse is that Rhaenyra cannot punish these men for doing that. What is she gonna do, punish her vassals for demonstrating their loyalty to her? That would only make them dislike her and turn against her, and lords that aren't happy with her would try to find some other monarch to serve. Say perhaps one of Alicent's other sons or grandsons. Anyway, my point is that Otto and Alicent are right to be suspicious of Rhaenyra, because it is very much possible that she could kill Rhaenyra's children. To think that she wouldn't would be a political blunder on her part as it's more likely to happen than not (and it does happen to Halaena later on actually).
*Rhaenyra and Aegon's betrothal:* This was the only way to avoid the war. This would've been the smartest thing for Viserys to agree to because we know, in hindsight, that Aegon was never interested in ruling the realm. He had no interest in being king or in sitting the Iron Throne... but Rhaenyra did. Rhaenyra could've ruled on Aegon's behalf, beside him as his queen consort and advisor. Visenya and Rhaenys did the same for Aegon I, and Alysanne did the same thing for Jaehaerys the Conciliator. All of these women were instrumental in the successes of their respective husband's reigns. It wouldn't have been unusual for Rhaenyra to do the same for Aegon as his consort. As his queen and older sister, she would've been in the position to easily manipulate him and mold him into the kind of pliable ruler that she'd want to have. She would've been able to influence his decisions and be the true ruler of the realm... but Rhaenyra, unfortunately, doesn't have the political foresight to even realize that, nor the patience and cunning - and Viserys, too. So, again, Otto's sage council was ignored and the realm was one step closer to a war of succession.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 that’s fair but Daemon is the necessary evil because he was the one who made the Gold Cloaks have a purpose instead of being misguided fighters. Fear keeps enemies at bay and makes them think twice before attacking. Viserys was a weak king that’s why so much damage happened right under his nose even when he’s responsible for the damage done to his family.
Otto is not a brilliant politician, because he is nowhere near Tywin’s level because when Tywin was Hand under The Mad King everyone feared his reputation and no one dared challenged either of them. Now with Viserys he didn’t tell the king that he should make royal progress by traveling to each kingdom visiting all of the houses in those regions because that’s exactly what Aegon The Conqueror and Jaehaerys did in their reigns as kings. Now Otto’s mindset was halfway spot on because only the wealthiest and richest kingdoms ( The Westerlands and Reach ) supported his grandson, while the less wealthy and glamorous kingdoms ( The Riverlands, The North and The Vale ) supported Rhaenyra. He spent so much time in Kings Landing trying to grab power for his grandson, he ignored the other kingdoms. Daemon pointed that out. He miscalculated the number of people who remained loyal to their vows instead of following the tradition. Because if Aegon was the “rightful” heir nobody would have supported his sister.
Alicent is a hypocrite just as much as Rhaenyra is, the whole question revolved around Daemon, not Criston Cole, and everybody that watched the show; they all know that nobody Kristen didn't know Daemon, but how can she lie about sleeping with Criston if nobody asked her specifically about him? More importantly, Criston Cole should have gone directly to Viserys and asked to be removed from protecting her instead of remaining as her sworn protector and hoping to take her away to marry. And now, Alicent is forcing her daughter to go through the same thing that she did for the sake of power to protect her children. How can she say that she's doing something for decency and honor, but her actions show differently? That is exactly what Rhaenyra pointed out and called her out for being so righteous all of the years she spent hating and resenting Rhaenyra. She passed it on to her son, brainwashing them and lying to them. There is not one time that Rhaenyra never talked about harming her siblings for the sake of her claim because you saw that Rhaenyra was considering giving it up and allowing the Greens to take power if her father didn't convince her. Ranira already knew that her father's actions divided the realm. Rhaenyra’s behavior comes from her father and Alicent’s behavior comes from her father, both fathers are terrible as parents, but one father has genuine love for his daughter so much that even as he is sick and suffering so much pain he gets out of his bed, walks to the throne and defends his daughter and his grandsons, he already know that his three grandsons are bastards. He can already tell but he’s ignoring it because the consequences can get his daughter killed. What happened to Helaena is Aemond’s fault, Aemond had no sons and Rhaenyra was owed a son. Luke was an envoy and Aemond’s actions is for the proof that the greens are the villains because Aegon honors his brother by throwing him a feast, instead of punishing him Otto and Alicent scolding him is proof that their leadership in the greens is not united it’s very breakable. Aegon being in Essos away is perfect for Rhaenyra to get rid of him for good. As for their marriage to each other, it would be the best possible way to avoid war, but that’s not the problem . Because war is still gonna happen. It may not happen in their time and in their generation, but it’s still gonna happen due to how the family is.
Otto is very shortsighted and created most of his own problems.
If Daemon is such a problem he needs only to let Daemon be Daemon and he would’ve sorted himself out. But Otto’s constant meddling screws everything up.
If he never pressure Viserys to name his daughter his heir there would be no succession issues when his daughter marries the king and produces heirs. He constantly shoots himself in the foot. He’s the Catlyn Stark of this series.
Otto was only right because he orchestrated the entire situation. He’s the won who created the problem, of course he has the solution. Otto is a taction, he knew what it meant to suggest his daughter to be queen. He used Rheynera as a place holder always intending to usurp her.
Its more like he hedged his bets
He had Alicent marry the king and pump out heirs just in case Rhaenyra was a bust
But any father of the queen who had the first born son would expect their grandson to be king its tradition. All of the lords on Aegon’s 2nd birthday expected him to name him heir
1. Agree, Daemon is creep (God one knows what Rhaneyra sees in him).
2. Misogynistic behaviour is understable from Otto' (and realm') perspective but unacceptable from modern point of view, so cannot be defended.
3. Moronic statement. Rhaenyra isn't Robert and historically there were examples of rulers that didn't kill their rivals despite fact their rule would be secure if they did. For example there was fratricide in Ottoman Empire few centuries later Ahmed I spared his younger half-brother Mustafa against tradition of fratricide. None disposed Mustafa later, and ultimately he briefly succeded his brother. Ahmed's actions set new precedence and when his eldest son Osman II became new ruler, he also didn't harm his siblings. You can't know what would be Rhaneyra's treatment of her siblings if they worked with her and she reigned peacfully. Their animosity towards her was result of Otto' and Alicent' poor parenting. They should ensure there will be unity. They ensured division.
4. No, he isn't realistic. He is PESIMISTIC. If he was realistic, then he would try live in harmony first, having plan B in case. But he started with plan C.
5. Aegon & Rhaneyra... Please. The worst. Idea. Ever. I think you had never heard story about Cleopatra the Great and Ptolemy XIII. Exactly identical situation. Let me tell you: Two (half)siblings who inherited crown together and married because daddy dear wished so. She was adult woman, aged 18 👩🏻🦰. He was around 11 👦🏼. His advisors wanted power 🤏🏻🤏🏻. Many quarrels. Big civil war ⚔⚔. No consummation of marriage. Cleopatra having bastard to ensure continuing the line, as her husband was too young (or later: too angry with her) 👶🏻. And finally big battle and young King drowning during escape from battlefield at age 13-14 🤴🏼🌊. But it isn't even end of story! Cleopatra married another brother. She was 21. He was 12👦🏼. And whole thing again. No consummation. Another bastard (though stillborn this time). And brother dead at 15 🧑🏼🪦. Cleopatra won her throne and ruled another 14 years and her first-born was co-king alongside her 👩🏻🦰👑👦🏻. Win for her 🏆 - but not very great for little brothers though, as they died young and childless. Why I think that marriage of Rhaneyra and Aegon would be equal disaster...???😆😆🤣🤣
Cleopatra's marriage not working has nothing to do with Rhaenyra and her half brother's theorized marriage lol.
Either present reasons from the show itself or just don't bother.
@@_NeoImperia_ It has EVERYTHING to do. Too much age gap make couple incompatible. Both Rhaneyra and Cleopatra were ambitious and didn't want to share power. While Viserys died when Aegon was 19 (in show; in book he was in early 20s), he couldn't predict this. None could. If Viserys died when Ageon was let's say 5 or 10, he would be left with much elder and eager to held power half-sister. Rhaneyra would no doubt tried push Little Husband aside, just like Cleopatra did with her younger brother co-ruler. There would no doubt be conflict between Rhaenyra and advisors of Aegon (with Otto having upper hands among them). Rhaneyra might tried even had bastards that she would tried pass as children of her husband and heirs to throne, that would make succession complicated. As long as Aegon was young, she could kept him alive, but older he get, he and any children he would have in future, could be danger to her children. Ptolemy XIV died at 15 - it is interesting coincidence that he ended up in grave in age he was viewed as young man and could father children. Either some unfortunate illness, or Cleopatra knew she no longer can keep him alive for her sake, safety of her son and any children she will have in future. Also big age gap between Aegon and Rhaneyra meant it would take years before Aegon would be able father any children, meaning Kingdom would be years without legitimate heir in direct line. Now, of course WE know that Viserys lived long enough to see Aegon becoming adult. But he couldn't know this when Aegon was 2. Betrhothing Aegon to Rhaneyra could be perfect solution that would unite their claim... or could be terrible, terrible disaster for little Aegon.
Funny thing is Aegon didn't even try to push for his claim if not for otto crowning him. So he effectively put alicent's children in the line of fire then gaslighted her into believing it's rhaenyra that is threatening them.
@@pendragonsxskywalkers9518The show fucked up by changing the ages and timeline.
@@joshuabryant9845 To some extent yes, but Rhaneyra of book was still much older than Aegon. Changing Alicent age changed dynamic between her and Rhaneyra, but I think Aegon & Rhaneyra dynamic would be the same if they left book ages.
I disagree with your assumption that Robert would have killed all Targeryon offspring. He never pulled the trigger on Dani or her brother until they became a legitimate threat. Plus Ned Stark arrived at kings landing before he did and his influence makes this even less likely.
Do you believe that Rhaenyra would murder Alicent’s family soon as she takes the throne?
Kings and queens in history have a habit of killing the competitions (spouses, siblings, cousins, offsprings) An example, Elizabeth 1st didn’t want to execute queen Mary (her cousin and rival for the English throne) but she did to eliminate the rival.
Rhaenrya reaction to Aemond eye injury shows she doesn’t give damn about Aemond and only concern about focusing the problem over insults then a physical injury. Which makes it more likely that Rhaenrya would choose the ‘murder my siblings route’.
Yes
This is the same woman who asked that her half-brother who just lost an EYE when he was still just a KID! Be ‘Sharply Questioned’, which is a euphemism for TORTURE! All the while she’s listening to the same man who hack limbs of INNOCENT PEOPLE and killed his OWN WIFE! God! The arrogance and ignorance is high with Team Black!
There's a difference between "being right" and "doing the right thing".
Otto presumed to subvert Viserys' wishes, flat out, black & white. Alicent knew this. He went through severe pain and humiliation, so he could sit the throne to reaffirm the succession.
But, in the 11th hour, dying and delusional, Alicent is CONVINCED he changed his mind, and wants Aegon on the throne... Bull Pie.
She heard what she wanted to hear.
For better or worse, the Kings wishes were ignored, and the Hightowers plotted to put Hightower blood on the throne.
They should have married them, when Laenor died. Then marry Jace and Heleana. Then a kid of A and R will marry a H and J kid. Fix is the succesion.
Otto didn’t want daemon out of court to “protect the realm”. He knew he could play viserys.
In confronting his son ser Harwin breakbone, Lord Strong did say ‘your intimacy with the princess would mean exile and death. For you , for her , for the children’ If that’s how the law is set. Then I support Otto Hightower’s opinion in the succession. The illegitimate children of Raenyra are basically an act of treason, so she should be doomed.
No one is saying he wasn’t smart, just self-serving. The Dance happened because of his selfish desire to have his bloodline on the Iron Throne.
But why do people describe Otto as being selfish for wanting his grandson on the Iron Throne, but they don't say the same thing about Rhaenyra placing her bastard-born son on the Driftwood throne? Why is the scrutiny always on the Green characters and not on the Black faction's characters? 🤔
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Because it's not the same. Obviously, she can't acknowledge that her son is a bastard, so with Laenor being "dead," it only makes sense that he would be the heir. Plus, Rhaenyra wasn't the only one who desired that, Corlys himself also wanted him to be heir.
@@britbrat201191 But Rhaenyra is wrong and the Greens are right then - Vaemond is correct for defending his rights. Why can't the Black faction's stans just acknowledge that? And if Vaemond is right for defending HIS rights, then why would Otto be wrong for defending the rights of his grandson? Aegon is the true king by all the laws and customs of the land. Female rulers are unprecedented in Westerosi history, and in every prior succession issue, the male claimant's rights have always trumped those of a female claimant. So why wouldn't the Green faction speak up for Aegon's rights? Why would Otto be wrong in this situation? 🤔
@thecriticalmaester9702 Otto gets more criticism because his actions are more deliberate. They didn't have to put Aegon on the throne the second Viserys passed, but they made a conscious decision to. And is there an official law that states women cannot rule? If not, then the Greens are not justified just because that's the way things have always been. Personally, I don't think the Blacks do no wrong. But if I had to choose a side in the Dance, it would be the Blacks.
@@britbrat201191 you're defending the morally incorrect stance.
Otto's intentions were to keep the realm strong and stable but he ruined House Targeryean in the process. If he wanted to avoid war, he should have made sure that absolutely no rivalry is present against the crown. But how he out worked House Velaryon to advance himself only made them resentful and side with Rhaenyra
Personally, I support the greens over the blacks. They're both flawed and have virtues of course .
He was one of the causes of the dance.
I don't see how. If Viserys had listened to him, the Dnace might've been prevented.
@@thecriticalmaester9702genius
If my sons/grandsons were known, obvious psychopaths and predators, I would simply keep them far away from the levers of power- not to mention my granddaughter. And you can't tell me they didn't know about Aemond's predilection for watching his own children live in squalor and slavery until forced to fight each other to the death.
Otto was a douche.
He was power hungry and I get that was like many people but he’s just awful
Well to be honest, if anyone deserved to be King it’s Aemond cause he has studied the history, the philosophy and trained with the sword.
This is mad green propaganda.
Man Otto is a weasel
1. There is no wisdom in Otto's suggestions, nor care for Viserys or the realm. His only purposes are his own convenience, ambition and power; for himself and his family. His one true desire is that his descendants sit the Iron Throne.
2.- Otto dislikes Daemon bc he cannot manipulate him like he does with Viserys. He wants Daemon away from the court to secure his own power and prevent Viserys to bond stronger with his brother. If Daemon succeds Viserys, Otto would be dissmissed from the small council and would loose all his power and influence; for he is only a second son, with no lands, vassals or gold.
3. Otto proposes Rhaenyra as hier to prevent Daemon becoming the official heir; hence, to loose his power. Also, he believes Rhaenyra will be easy to manipulate or, even better, easy to depose.
4. Otto' never "changed his dance", he played the game of thrones all along since the begining. He sees a huge opportunity in the death of Queen Aemma (and the baby), and seizes it. Just after the funeral, he starts grooming Alicent for Viserys. At the same time, he sows enemity between brothers with the "heir for a day" gossip. With this he removes Daemon from KL and secures the marriage between the king and his daughter.
5. If Otto really cared for the good of the realm and what is right, he would have advised Viserys to marry Laena and to support Corlys on the war of the Stepstones. Laena was the stronget match for the king, even Alicent knew that. The Velaryons were the richest and most powerful house after the Targaryens, they had the biggets and strongest fleet, they both were valyrians plus the marriage would have joined the two remaining branches of king Jaehaerys lineage, restoring the slight from the great council. In contrast, Alicent's marriage contributed with nothing to the realm but more division and problems. Their union generated a new lineage, making harder for the Targaryens to remain united. It also caused the alienation from the Velaryons that was later "solved" with the marriage of rhaenyra and laenor.
The idea that those criminals daemon mutilated were innocent is silly. If they were innocent, otto would have brought that up in the small council meeting to highlight how bad daemon is, but he doesn't because he himself doesn't think they were innocent.
Also the reason he supported rhaenyra and then aegon is because otto is a hypocrite. If the lords of the realm would support aegon because of male primogeniture why would they not support daemon? And arguing that rhaenyra would be a better ruler than daemon is fallacious because aegon would also be a poor ruler. The only reason he supports rhaenyra in the first place is because at the time she'd be far less inclined to see him removed from his position at best and killed at worst. Then he switches to aegon because A: theres little risk his grandson will move against him and B: it will seat his descendant on the iron throne.
Telling allicent that rhaenyra will have to kill her children may be true in theory but it fails to understand rhaenyras character. Yes her allies may do it but at the time she was a naive young girl whom generally wanted to befriend allicent again. Also she and daemon weren't even allies yet.
Also im not saying the match between rharnyra and aegon was a bad idea, however it should be noted most of the age gaps in feudal marriages were between lords marrying young noble females. The example you yourself mentioned was king viserys marrying laena which is a man marrying downwards. This is important because aegon would be marrying upwards, when rhaenyra is in her late 20s at minimum. This means she would struggle to have many kids which could severely hurt the succession in the future.
Thank you 👏👏👏
1. How could Otto have known that all of the people mutilated were criminals or not? Even if he went to them afterwards to try and interrogate them, they would have been too scared and traumatized to give a proper answer, or to try and defend themselves against the more powerful lord of Fleabottom. That is why you don't torture people before you start interrogating them. You should have a trial where they are allowed to give their side of the argument. So, again, it is possible that some of those people were innocent of the crimes that they were accused of. There is no way of really saying, because Daemon put the fear of the gods in them.
2. The lords of Westeros are a lot more familiar with Daemon and his behaviours than they were with Aegon and his by the time that he grew up. On the show, Alicent goes to extreme lengths to hide Aegon's true nature and to keep his reputation throughout the realm intact (e.g. when she gives the moon tea to the servant girl that Aegon r-worded). Therefore, the lords of the realm don't know that Aegon is crazy. Also, Aegon is a child, so in truth, the realm would be governed by his mother (Alicent), his Hand (Otto) and the rest of his council (all of which are pretty competent) if he were to come into power. This would be a far more comforting situation than that of having Daemon as a ruler. Daemon is unjust, murderous and violent, and he doesn't even like to attend small council meetings. He is incompetent and wild natured, so no one would trust him. When Otto suggests Rhaenyra, he is thinking about what's best for the realm. Rhaenyra is beloved as the 'Realm's Delight', so the lords would be more comfortable in having her as a ruler. However, this all changes when Aegon is born. Now they prioritize tradition and precedent, and securing their own rights. Rhaenyra's claim is a direct challenge to their rights, so why would they support her over Aegon?
3. You can only have this opinion if you are aware of Rhaenyra's behaviour, but when you think of events from Alicent's perspective, it doesn't make sense for her to still trust Rhaenyra so much. After Aemond has his eye cut, Rhaenyra says that she wants for him to be "questioned sharply". This is a euphemism for torture, and it comes from the main books. In other words, after Lucerys cuts out Aemond's eye, Rhaenyra wants him to be further tortured in order to find out if he called her son a bastard or not. Alicent should've reacted to that on the show, and she should've been outraged at the suggestion. It's something that should've been brought up multiple times throughout the show by the Green Council, but of course it wasn't because the show is biased. Still, it should've been playing at the back of Alicent's mind that Rhaenyra is very much capable of harming her children. Further, Rhaenyra murdered her husband when he became inconvenient to her cause, so why would Alicent not consider that when she thinks about what Rhaenyra is capable of (by the way, I know that Laenor is still alive, but Alicent doesn't know that and nobody else does). Alicent is turned into fool by the showrunners, but Otto, on the other hand, is constantly thinking about this type of stuff. In Otto's mind, Rhaenyra is very much capable of killing Alicent's children if they become a hinderance to her claim for the throne. Rhaenyra is just as murderous as Daemon as far as he's concerned, and she is a liar who casts her vows aside to sire bastards and who murders her husband when he becomes a hinderance to her. Why in the world would you trust a person like that?
4. The fact that Aegon is the younger person in this betrothal is not an issue as far as I can tell. Yes, most betrothals tend to be between younger ladies and older lords, but that doesn't mean that it cannot happen the other way around. In the main series (in 'A Storm of Swords') Lysa considers marrying the young Robert (her sickly son) to Sansa. Robert is the male and Sansa is the female here. Also, Tommen is only eight when he becomes the king, but Margaery is 17 and she is betrothed to him. So it isn't a strange thing for the male to be younger than the female. Aegon could absolutely be betrothed to Rhaenyra and it would be acceptable in the eyes of the Westerosi.
How would he know all those people were guilty? There wasn’t a trial, he literally just pulled people out of their homes and mutilated them. It was a fear tactic. And in their minds the less poor, dirty people there are the less crime there is. Do you think any of them care about the people in fleabottom? Rhaenys crushed like a hundred common folk in the sept and didn’t even blink an eye, wasn’t ever brought up.
In the season 1 scripts it was actually mentioned in paranthesis that those people were random people that were unfortunately present when daemon was doing his fake act of "justice”
Also the scene very clearly demonstrates that whatever was happening there wasn't a fair act of justice, there was no hearing, the accused weren't asked to justify the claims made against them- only a fool would deny that it was anything but a show of power on his end because he LOVES bloodshed and any chance of estavlishin himself as a ruthless man
@@hightower19 'm sure someone with the name "hightower 19" is very unbiased. regardless of your lack of bias, i have read the script and nowhere does it say these were random people that were present. In fact it literally says "Flea Bottom represents the dregs of King’s Landing, where the
low-born take their low pleasures."
and "The watchmen fan out into the darkness of Flea Bottom, the
firelight reflecting off their new GOLD CLOAKS.
The innocent give them a wide berth. Some of the guilty
scatter away in fear, making themselves for easy targets"
Implying they were able to accurately identify the criminals.
The only indication this script gives that any of them may be innocent, is by putting quotation marks around the word "guilty" a few lines later.
I tried to link it but youtube hates non wikipedia and non youtube hyperlinks, so unfortunately i am unable to cite my source directly.
None of what you said really matters, the accusation is that daemon may have punished innocent people, which no in-universe source, including otto whom would be the first person to suggest so claims.
🤡🤡🤡 show video. Written like a true Green.
You’re so bia and blatantly ignore what’s shown in the show it’s crazy
Like what?
@@thecriticalmaester9702the fact that he is hiding his malicious intent of installing his family in the throne.
And Aegon II REALLY BRO?!
@@thecriticalmaester9702Viserys not marrying the Valeryon girl, but instead Alicent. Which was setup by Otto. Explain me how that was the best advice and not a powerplay?
@@RaMraM-zm1el 'malicious intent' you mean every westerosi lords bread and butter business? He tried to advance his house's status with a marriage pact like 99% of the characters we have seen.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Also Otto pushed Viserys to put Raeneyra as his sucssesor, bc apparently Daemon was to dangerous. Just to switch it around to pu his grandson on the throne.