Repertoire: Bruckner Symphony No. 2--Restoring Sanity
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2020
- Nothing is more characteristic of the insane nonsense that passes for modern Bruckner scholarship than the situation with the Second Symphony. I offer some straight talk and common sense in helping you to negotiate the minefield of various editions and versions of this lovely but problematic work.
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PERSONALLY, I prefer the 1872/3/4 mixed version with the added triangle and the third version of the Alter-Neuer-Junger-Mittelalter-Satz with the fourth flute playing just that one note in the last movement.
I agree completely. Thanks for mentioning it.
I actually love the second. Lovely cello melodies and schubert like atmosphere. The adante is beautiful , very romantic.
I don't believe I ever said anyone should not love the Second. It's a lovely work, plain and simple, which the Bruckner cult has done its best to make confused and difficult. That was the point, more of less.
A wonderful, passionate and commonsensical plea. Many thanks 🙏 once more David. Back in my early years as a Bruckner zealot, this symphony was the one which troubled me the most. Together with the Fifth’s scherzo, it was the hardest to ‘get’, specially the last movement. Then something happened: Skrowasceski really opened it up to me and since then, each and every note (of either Haas or Nowak’s versions) makes perfect sense to me. I am no longer able to imagine smoother transitions or better ‘solutions’- everything (silent pauses and all) has fallen in its proper place. Admittedly, this is a tough one for un-Brucknerian ears 👂. But remains a regular staple for hardcore fans!! -- Unmistakably Brucknerian un its heavenly Adagio. Breath-taking in its opening movement... I guess it takes some time to grasp, but it repays careful listen ❤️❤️
SERENITY NOW, as Cosmo Kramer might say. I truly enjoy Tintner’s work here; it’s the first performance I heard sufficiently exciting enough to convince me this is a truly great symphony. Jochum is excellent, elegant yet lively. Over the years I found the more I listen to Bruckner, the more I love Bruckner. His symphonies have rather the opposite effect on many.
I really like the 2nd and I find myself constantly going back to it - certainly much more frequently than the 3rd, which I can’t grasp at all.
My approach to the so-called “Bruckner problem” has been the following: the later, the better. The revamped 3rd, 4th, 8th... vastly superior to the original ones.
HOWEVER
The 1st. I LOOOOOOOOVE the First, probably it’s my favorite Bruckner symphony (sue me!) and the original “Linz” version is infinitely better than the weird, disjointed “Vienna” edition.
But that’s the only exception. In Bruckner symphonies I (almost) always pick the man’s last word on them.
I agree - he wrecked his 1st symphony. It reminds me of what Mendelssohn did to his Italian symphony (the revised versions of mvts 2-4 have been recorded by Gardiner and McGegan).
Do you mean the (last) 1888 version of the 4th symphony?
The 2d Symphony is the one that introduced me to Bruckner. I've always loved it.
The Stanislaw Skrowaczewski one with the Saarbrücken Radio Symphony Orchestra is my favorite, glad you mentioned it.
The thing I love most about the Solti Bruckner 2 is that in the cover photo on original CD release, Sir Georg appears to have a headache from the whole affair!
Yes, but this time the headache was his and not ours!
Great chat! I liked it and it was very helpful!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great to see you so fired up!!! Wonderful presentation.
Thanks so much! I am working hard to seem less noncommittal.
The history you give of this Symphony and the revisions, etc. is fascinating, David. When I first got into Bruckner I heard the 2nd on the radio and just loved it. Being of meager means I scowered the budget bin for it and bought Reichert/Westphalian I know, who?) on Turnabout Vox. The stereophonic sound isn’t the greatest, but it’s a wonderful performance of my favorite Bruckner Symphony (the Finale, eh). Those quiet, prayerful and/or introspective parts are some of his most beautiful and remarkable. I have the 3rd in the Jochum cycle and, yes, it’s fine.
I'm listening to the vinyl, and it is a really beautiful piece all through the playing time.
Boy, was this talk ever needed! I've never been attracted to the 2nd symphony, so I thought it was high-time that I should get further acquainted with it. Then I joined the Bruckner Society page at Facebook to look for input. They're nice people, but what a mess! There are 50 million postings about Bruckner's 2nd there - very few of them helpful at all. It's a jumbled mess with everybody piling on top of each other. Then, based on your suggestion to me, I listened to the Horst Stein one on Spotify. The fact that Stein left out repeats in the scherzo is, in my opinion, a plus! I'm not a believer that longer Bruckner is always better Bruckner. Anyway, I really do like the Horst Stein, but I can't find a copy of the Eloquence issue - I would have to buy Decca's Vienna Phil. Bruckner box. I wouldn't hesitate to get that box, except that I already have most of what it contains separately. The Tintner shows up in used bins at very cheap prices, so I'll probably settle for his. I just don't care for the 2nd enough to lose any sleep over it. Needless to say, I greatly enjoyed this.
Thank you.
My interest in Bruckner II was piqued in the late '90s by an original painting--a combination portrait & landscape painting--that the painter offered for sale online. Its title, IIRC, was "Anton Bruckner Remembering His Second Symphony". It was charming, and I was sorely tempted to, and regret that I did not, buy it. Does anyone remember the artist's name?
Love your passion and of course I love Bruckner. My first exposure to the second symphony was van karajan and it was an 80s recording..I have learned so much about Bruckner since then..about 1993 or so..
Glad I got the Skrowaczewski cycle back in March. It was the last one available on Amazon
I have four recordings of Bruckner's second from four different box sets of Bruckner's symphonies. Somehow, I have managed to enjoy each of them without making any scrupulous textual comparisons.
And isn't life better that way?
I never really found that it mattered which version it was when it came to the 2nd. I like Stein, just sounds good and is well played. I also have both complete cycles from Jochum, Barenboim (Chicago), Solti, Chailly, Karajan, Gielen, Tintner and a few others. Plenty of options and I enjoy most all of them as long as they are well played.
Exactly.
I like the Jochum / Dresden Brucker 2 version so far, with the Solti/ Chicago coming in as a close 2. Jochum makes it into a coherrant masterpiece. Barenboim's Berlin version (the one with the planets) that I have had for years really is a mish-mosh, this is why I never took the 2nd seriously. I have spent the past two months in a Bruckner trance or listening frenzy, purchasing your recommendations which are always excellent and adding from my own collection. I am not paying attention to "versions", just listening to what my ear likes.
Dave, what are your thoughts on Eichhorn’s recording of the 1873 “first performance” version (in the Bruckner Orchestra Linz cycle)?
Life is too short! Although it SHOULD have been the "original version" that Carrigan published, not his "first concept" version.
Great video
I really love the symphony itself. Liked the Goldmark point. The finale seems to me to have a figuration from Schubert 9. This adds to the Austrian atmosphere.
Beecham on musicologists: they can read music but can't hear it. I learned the Bruckner 2nd from Jochum's and Haitink's LP's, both of whom performed 1872/7 mixed versions from Nowak and Haas respectively. We agree that Skrow beats them both.
Thank you, David, for your excellent presentation and discussion. Let me ask you a question: after Stein's recording of the symphony with the VPO, there was no other recording of it with the VPO till Muti in 2016. How do you rate this modern recording? Being Italian, is his reading similar to Giulini's approach?
Not similar, but not necessary either.
I really enjoyed this video; it kindles a renewed interest in this symphony. Solti is now on my wish list (greatly enjoyed his Bruckner 3). I’ve heard Stein and Tintner, I agree both are excellent. Have not yet listened to Barenboim/CSO and Jochum/Dresden (in their respective complete sets).
Two great seconds that I wish you would have mentioned...Karajan and Giulini. Both have a lot of fans. Karajan has always been my favorite 2nd.
Karajan is OK, but Giulini is a bore, fans or not.
I love the 2nd symphony. I am particularly in love of the 2nd theme of the 2nd movement and really regret when the performer chose to cut the second part of that lovely passage. On the exposition the orchestration is more lyric and exalting, while the reprise is more tender and sweet, and I like listening to both.
"Commenty people"... Love it
And I love you all, truly.
Dave, you piqued my interest in this work. So I brought out my Chailly recording which I think I had only heard once before. I didn’t realize how much the Scherzo foreshadows that of the Ninth!
Yes, it does--same basic rhythmic cell as in the Ninth.
Personally, the more I listen to the 2nd, the more I love it... no matter what version/edition, lol.
I have the Solti box set. I purchased it at the Chicago Symphony Store. They told me at that time they had purchased the remaining stock from Decca and was only available through them (CSO store). That was some time ago. It may be available elsewhere now.
That was not true.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I'm glad to know that. Thanks for the response. Another topic. Have you done any videos on the various Bruckner 9th finales? I would like to hear your thoughts on that subject.
@@bradhawks9711I will discuss the finale issue when I talk about the Ninth.
@@DavesClassicalGuide There was a time when the CSO store had quite a few Decca boxes that were otherwise unavailable.
What is the Finale's structural problem?
I like you Dave. You are the real deal. Loved the video but your Haydn videos are in the extreme right tail of the distribution. BTW, almost nothing was recorded in the 1960s except the three Bs. You’re leading a resurgence. 😊
You're absolutely right about the self-serving bureaucracy of the music publishing business.
I think in the case of the Haas-Hate, there is also a political subtext.
Haas's editions of several Bruckner symphonies came out between the Anschluss and the end of WWII, so he was guilty by association. And besides that, there are musicologists nowadays saying that Haas's opposition to the Schalk versions of Bruckner's symphonies was because of anti-Semitism - the German/Austrian Bruckner had to have his music purged of Jewish influences. Now I didn't know Haas personally. He died before I was born. And I don't know what his motivations were. But the Bruckner Society is not advocating a return to the Schalk versions.
I agree with Robert Simpson, who says that Haas solved the problems of the versions of symphonies 2 and 8 in what was pragmatically the best possible way with a practical performing edition that has a scholarly basis. Let the conductors sort it out.
My favourite is Chailly, but I'm not sure, which version it is. Any idea?
The red one.
1877 version, Robert Haas edition
Hilarious Mr Hurwitz says Ken in Cornwall (yes - UK) - my intro to Bruckner was thanks to university lending library in late 1970s (No 3 Bohm and No 9 Klemperer I think). I bought the Penguin Guide of biased (although I did not know it at the time) English musical criticism at a time when the only two complete vinyl sets were Jochum and Haitink. Of course, I was told, the Haitink was better because it had the "advantage" of using Haas. Anyway - got both and discovered that Jochum had the "advantage" of fewer annoying side breaks within movements (please laugh). Both sets still get pulled out and enjoyed despite multiple CD and audio tape additions by others to the collection. You make a fantastic general point about listening to music. Enjoy the thing that you are listening to. A musicologist can spoil music just as a vandal can destroy a work of visual art.
PS - my favourite Bruckner 2 - oh no - you're not interested. And guess what - I don't have one. I would just add this though - I really like it and am more likely to put it on the turntable than either 1, 3, 4 or 7. And that is personal taste. Your channel has been a lucky find for me. Stay well.
You're one of the sane ones, obviously! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Actually, I AM interested.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for that - my safe bet is Jochum with Dresden Staatskapelle - affection because I heard the orchestra live in Newcastle (yes - UK) with Blomstedt in Beethoven 3 - beautiful - and in order to prove I am not sane - Konwitschny in Berlin 1951 - take care and give Havergal Brian's Gothic another go!
Makes on wonder what the "originalfassung" would be...
Hi Dave...this was a shocker of a video. I respect your opinions and as a Bruckner lover, I can empathise with your passion. However, I wish your views and opinions on Carragan’s work was in a separate video from discussion about various versions of the Bruckner 2. For example, if I was to find the Dennis Russell Davies or the Ivor Bolton versions in a bargain bin (and these are conductors whose Bruckner work I do not like at all) should I avoid them? How about the ridiculous cycle of Mario Venzago and his Bruckner 2. And Roberto Paternostro whose cycle I own and like very much. Also your view of the laurels reserved for the ‘legendary’ Giulini version (on Testament)... I have ordered the Simone Young cycle but that seems to be OOP...The usual cycles, as you pointed out, all have good Bruckner 2s...I didn’t like the Karajan Bruckner 2 , maybe the early digital recording was to blame. Anyway ...hope you can weigh in on these sometime. As you can see, I remain an impassioned and enthusiastic fan...regards
Thanks for your thoughts. I take your point, although I would not discuss those other performances specifically with respect to the Second. Venzago is atrocious generally, and a discussion of complete cycles would be the place to point that out. Same with Davies or Bolton. I can't deal with every conceivable circumstance, and if someone happens across a terrible cycle in a bargain bin (do those still exist?) and buys it just because it's cheap, then it's Caveat Emptor. I have given more than enough useful information to newcomers on where to find some very good versions.
@@mensog I agree that the Venzago cycle is not so bad, just different. Refreshing to hear the music in a classical style.
@@ThreadBomb I think Venzago's 2nd is by miles the best thing in his set, partly because the orchestra is up to it and maybe because his willingness to intervene does the symphony some favours - though in some ways it is quite a conventional reading (*slow* slow movement!). Much else in his cycle ranges from meh to argghhh, to my ears.
Dave Hurwitz (speaking to the audience in general): “The Second... is not a piece of music that you need to have a hundred versions of.”
My wife (to me in particular): “Hear that? What do I always say to you!?”
Me (to the endlessly patient Mrs. D.): “You knew I was a Bruckner Kook when you married me. By the way, maybe I should send Dave a copy of William Carragan's new book, 'Anton Bruckner: Eleven Symphonies'.”
My wife: “NO! You can sit here quietly reading your own copy of Professor Carragan's book, but leave poor Mr. Hurwitz alone.”
Me (to the audience in general): “Harrumph! Just wait until the president of the Australian Knappertsbusch Association sees this video...”
My wife (to me): "Now don't be silly, or Mr. Hurwitz will delete your comment. In fact, I wouldn't blame him if he does."
~ J. F. Drexel, ein engagierter Bruckner-Kook
By all means, PLEASE send David that book - preferably an autographed copy.
Thank you, but I'll wait for the movie version.
Great joy. Hilarious. "Just buy it".
I finally got around to Bruckner 0, 1, 2, and 3. Luckily I have Solti's. Why have we been brainwashed into thinking that only 4 and over are worth listening to? These early symphonies are lovely.
Back in the day, the 2nd was my first introduction to Bruckner, no idea what version but it was very cheap (a pre-condition in those days) on a single LP. The only slight controversy I was aware of was the horn solo at the end of the slow movement. Clarinets just aren’t the same even if they are easier to play.
Perhaps, but if you didn't know it was originally horn solo you wouldn't miss it and wouldn't care.
Agreed!
I don't care what version it is... I like the Guilini version with the Vienna Symphony on Testament.
Off-topic, to be sure, but I was wondering if you might, at some point, do a rundown of some of the "glam" stars of the current classical scene. I'd like to see your takes on the musical accomplishments, or otherwise, of some of the PR-marketing darlings of the performance scene today, people like Dudamel, and Yuja Wang and Lang Lang and such. While I enjoy a lot of what they do, I would like to see a veteran musical maven like yourself, with your lifelong experience in hearing the best, take on their work. I think it would probably give your channel a lot of views. If you've already done this, and I somehow missed it, I apologize.
Appreciate the suggestion--definitely worth considering, although I still have so much music I want to talk about. We'll see.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I really appreciate the consideration. I always look forward to your astute analyses on whatever topic.
Has anyone recorded the Spike Jones edition? Perhaps F. X. Roth will do it with period pistols and bicycle horns. And with vibrato-free glugs and hiccups.
We can only hope. And Carrigan will publish six different versions, depending on which glug or hiccups are included, and where.
@@DavesClassicalGuide CarrAgan.
Ah... the Rustic Wedding Symphony. Along with the Franck Symphony in d minor, sometimes I think I am the only one who likes these old chestnuts anymore. Bernstein all the way for Karl Goldmark's RWS.
The Second does not sound like a "Rustic Wedding" at all to me! It sounds more like a late 1800's throning ceremony for an Austro-Hungarian Church Cardinal! It sounds very regal and religous to me!
A couple of other thoughts:
1. These versions to have quite a bit of overlap. As Dave points out, it’s still the same damn symphony. I’ll leave it to musicology Ph.D. candidates to debate the finer points in dissertations and monographs. My vision is too poor to watch angels dance on the head of a pin.
2. Just scored The Art of Konwitschny box, which includes Bruckner 2. Don’t remember which version and don’t particularly care, just excited to listen.
The minute you think sanity is restored, you find out it's really not. A Bruckner symphony cycle transcribed for organ has just started and the first CD (volume 0) is out on Oehms. I am not a Bruckner person. I will not explain my reasons because I do not want to start a ruckus. But I do like the symphony "No. 0", and could not resist hearing what this would sound like on organ. I am only through the 1st movement and I have already deemed it a fiasco, but the organ sounds great so there is that!
This should attract two groups of "nuts" though (affectionately said, of course)...the Bruckner nuts and the organ nuts, so this may not be a bad idea from a marketing standpoint.
@@Quotenwagnerianer Whatever details in the music that actually made it into this transcription are lost in the acoustic. This is a hard recording to listen to.
@@Quotenwagnerianer very true. Although I was recently listening to an organ transcription of the Dante Symphony by Liszt. To die for! Different organ and a different space and a good transcription resulted in a great time!
Personally I think Inbal is even more exciting than Solti (especially in the finale).
But the orchestra isn't nearly as good...but this does sort of point to what I was getting at, which is that it's hard to find a bad Second because, I think, it's usually done by devoted Brucknerians within the context of complete cycles. And that is also why I didn't want to get into the "I like this one" game here in the comments, not that I thought for a minute that anyone would be paying attention to that request!
I will concur the Haas version works for me. The Stein was my intro to the work.
the textural complications trumped the liner note writer for the Solti recording. Richard Osborne concludes his review with the following words :
“ Incidentally, I wish I had known all this when I was asked to concoct an 800-word note on the symphony ('Nowak Edition') for the Solti booklet. Not for the first time with a Bruckner release, the notes bear scant relation to what is on the disc--yet another instance of artists and producers failing to brief the editorial staff. Indeed, in this case the notes are spectacularly misleading. I should add that I also wrote the notes for the Karajan disc where, happily, the background information is correct.”
I remember that!