1. Looks like shoe covers. Maybe laced shoes under to get turbulence 2. Ceramic speed aero derailleur (expensive option) 3. Different helmets 4. Aero calf sleeves 5. One piece arm extensions 6. Clean up cables 7. Water bottle in jersey 8. Not sure tire choice but something to play with 9. 1x set up Thinking from a triathlon perspective not sure type of racing
Having raced Louie for around 25 years, I can confirm he punches a very small hole in the wind. last wknd in a road race, me, him and two others off the front. Me behind him in the rotation. Drat!
Wow that is an incredible CDA. You have a little Remco there! It’s neat to see him accomplishing this with older school equipment. I’m curious about those Nopinz overshoes. My only experience is with the Castelli ones. Thankyou for the videos, they are very informative and I’m applying some of the knowledge to my position.
@@Shadowboost Based on what? His numbers aren't public but if someone like Bigham can get a .15 (even getting into the 0.14x for shorter runs) on a track bike and should be low-mid 0.16x on a road TT bike, Remco who is 12cm shorter than Bigham being similar in CdA would be expected. Also Bigham makes Louie look like trash CdA wise considering the 28cm height difference.
@@Shadowboost lmfao. I'll take you know literally nothing about aero and have never discussed anything about cycling aero testing before. Bigger riders have significantly larger A dumbass.
Try the new swissside calf sleeves? Horizontal ridges instead of vertical on most other brands. Whether that makes a difference or not, only testing will show... Decent Whitepaper on their testing regime too...
Great video. Some thoughts based on aerodynamics background/triathlons: 1) Could try to move hands slightly closer to close gap between hands (particularly the lower part of his grip where the finger knuckles could touch) ... balance of higher stagnation pressure versus area 1b) aero gloves since hands are the first contact or tripping point for flow separation... this might help to keep the streamlines close downstream of the hands 2) would try stretching the reach out a bit to lower overall upper body profile 3) with the high forearm angle, the tri bar underside/arm pads need to be cleaned up (custom molded perhaps, and even a one piece solid dual elbow pad configuration) as this area is more exposed in his extreme arm angle position.
just yesterday I felt a little stupid aero shopping victim to have ordered the Castelli Bolero long sleeves for the bodaypaint suit which cost me a 100 euros.. .... this video makes me feel soo much better, thx from GER man 😂
Magnus Ditlev and his aero tester probably won’t ever release his numbers but with some math putting his power and speed together people have estimated he’s around .20 on a few occasions. He has said his handlebars made a noticeable drop in his cda so I feel like this guy can get to .14 with some custom molded bars, a water bottle on his chest and hidden cables.
Switch from Michelin Power Time Trial to the new Vittoria Corsa Pro Speed should reduce watts. Technically more of of the gain is from CRR not CdA. These can be estimated separately because CRR is constant and CdA is exponential relative to wind speed. Switching to 1x, also. The Tempor is "tempormental", but looks like it might work with his position and shoulder width. The Specialized TT5 seems to be less temperamental.
good you suggest PM being off; did you supply a true dual pm ie dual cranks or dual pedals; these are the only two pms i would accept as a true reading; spider type pms in my exp are off
I’d like to see if his CdA could be improved with lace up shoes (with or without shoe covers) and if a small saddlebag (such as the Cyckit Aeroclam) would be beneficial. Pogacar must be using them for good reason.
6:48 ...isn't it important that the sensor doesn't bounce around like that? If it's constantly changing how the air flows into the tube. At least that's what the instructions for my Aeropod said
Two things...The spot where I stand to take photos and video is a bit bumpy and not actually in the test area. The AeroPro, though, is not susceptible to the bouncing issue (within reason of course). If it were, we wouldn't be able to produce consistent results. It's why I use it. I've only found two sensors that are worth using and this is one of them. The other is Swiss Side's.
Nice video, although I think the rider could definitely be a lot more aero. I'm at .157 CdA (consistently) measured on my Aeropod. Old rim brake Shiv TT, HED 3+ trispoke, Roval 321 disc, TriRig front brake, 15 degree risers, mechanical 10-speed SRAM Red, standard Specialized cranks (172.5). I use a POC Tempor or Giro Aerohead depending on wind conditions, and also change tires depending on road conditions, running 70/72psi front/rear. Your rider needs to get his head down more, straighten out his back, and close the gap between the extensions and his chin.
Frontal area has a large effect on "A", but so does surface area and surface finish. As such, it's best to leave CdA as one number and not try to separate the two.
Surface area and finish have no effect on A. The reference area in this is the frontal area. The CD is affected by those, specifically, the skin drag component
Is the “constant area rule” from supersonic flight relevant? I actually teach fluids and don’t know the answer. In the front on picture where you are talking about his elbows in, his quite beefy thighs are obviously contributing to A, but I assume that at least keeping the change in area as you move backwards through the system (dA / dz if you want to geek out) is going to be relevant, and I surmise that you do NOT want area to go up (as it must from the tip of the tire) to a maximum (which it must again) and THEN BACK DOWN AND UP AGAIN. I presume that hourglasses are slow, but I am not sure how those potential pockets of air with turbulence outside will affect overall airflow.
No, it's not. Interference drag is the biggest part to minimize. You're in the low Reynolds regime, hiding the legs, chest, shoulders is the important bit
The biggest thing you can do that everyone forgets is the legs. I would see if you can bring his legs in closer to the frame. That would be the biggest change in area.
Most people don’t see how big of a CDA difference between a UCI legal position and not. With the UCI rules applied, I argue 99.9% of riders won’t even make it near .16. In addition, being a smaller rider and riding at a hunched position is a pretty poor combination to attempt to take on bigger more powerful riders, (as an opinion of my own)
This is something he can explain. That isn't necessarily true because he left out a very important part of the CDA equation, velocity and more specifically what is attached to it. It is squared so that means that it becomes harder to exponentially generate more power to move faster. Plus in a triathlon there is still a running portion so you don't want to use up all of your power on the bike section which he mentioned in his Wout Van Aert's position analysis where he only has to do a (UCI) TT on a bike.
1. Looks like shoe covers. Maybe laced shoes under to get turbulence
2. Ceramic speed aero derailleur (expensive option)
3. Different helmets
4. Aero calf sleeves
5. One piece arm extensions
6. Clean up cables
7. Water bottle in jersey
8. Not sure tire choice but something to play with
9. 1x set up
Thinking from a triathlon perspective not sure type of racing
Having raced Louie for around 25 years, I can confirm he punches a very small hole in the wind. last wknd in a road race, me, him and two others off the front. Me behind him in the rotation. Drat!
Wow that is an incredible CDA. You have a little Remco there! It’s neat to see him accomplishing this with older school equipment. I’m curious about those Nopinz overshoes. My only experience is with the Castelli ones. Thankyou for the videos, they are very informative and I’m applying some of the knowledge to my position.
Remco wishes he were Louie😂
Remco is nowhere close to that CDA
@@Shadowboost Based on what? His numbers aren't public but if someone like Bigham can get a .15 (even getting into the 0.14x for shorter runs) on a track bike and should be low-mid 0.16x on a road TT bike, Remco who is 12cm shorter than Bigham being similar in CdA would be expected. Also Bigham makes Louie look like trash CdA wise considering the 28cm height difference.
@@poeltlpower1880 the taller you are, the better the CdA. Ever read about Reynold's number?
@@Shadowboost lmfao. I'll take you know literally nothing about aero and have never discussed anything about cycling aero testing before. Bigger riders have significantly larger A dumbass.
A woman here watching closely and with high interest to learn on this topics. Thanks Raul Santaella La Esquina del Sofá 🎉
I think Graeme Obree’s truck was the most aero out there before the UCI band it 🤩
Try the new swissside calf sleeves? Horizontal ridges instead of vertical on most other brands. Whether that makes a difference or not, only testing will show... Decent Whitepaper on their testing regime too...
Great video. Some thoughts based on aerodynamics background/triathlons: 1) Could try to move hands slightly closer to close gap between hands (particularly the lower part of his grip where the finger knuckles could touch) ... balance of higher stagnation pressure versus area 1b) aero gloves since hands are the first contact or tripping point for flow separation... this might help to keep the streamlines close downstream of the hands 2) would try stretching the reach out a bit to lower overall upper body profile 3) with the high forearm angle, the tri bar underside/arm pads need to be cleaned up (custom molded perhaps, and even a one piece solid dual elbow pad configuration) as this area is more exposed in his extreme arm angle position.
Lady here!!! And no man had to tell me about these videos. 😂 I found them because I’m interested.
I love waking up to find a new video to watch! This is my favourite channel! You do such a great job!!
just yesterday I felt a little stupid aero shopping victim to have ordered the Castelli Bolero long sleeves for the bodaypaint suit which cost me a 100 euros.. .... this video makes me feel soo much better, thx from GER man 😂
Magnus Ditlev and his aero tester probably won’t ever release his numbers but with some math putting his power and speed together people have estimated he’s around .20 on a few occasions. He has said his handlebars made a noticeable drop in his cda so I feel like this guy can get to .14 with some custom molded bars, a water bottle on his chest and hidden cables.
TriRig cockpit. 15 degree stick angle. Extend his reach. Specialized S works TT5.
I tried setting up my arm rests as narrow as that but it just puts too much strain on the shoulders 😢
That CDA is amazing
Incredible numbers, look at those shoulders! Louie also seems to have a short and bulbous torso, akin to Remco.
nice. and rim brakes have not gone.
Switch from Michelin Power Time Trial to the new Vittoria Corsa Pro Speed should reduce watts. Technically more of of the gain is from CRR not CdA. These can be estimated separately because CRR is constant and CdA is exponential relative to wind speed. Switching to 1x, also. The Tempor is "tempormental", but looks like it might work with his position and shoulder width. The Specialized TT5 seems to be less temperamental.
good you suggest PM being off; did you supply a true dual pm ie dual cranks or dual pedals; these are the only two pms i would accept as a true reading; spider type pms in my exp are off
Cool video, I would say, play with wheel selection and clean up the cockpit.
I’d like to see if his CdA could be improved with lace up shoes (with or without shoe covers) and if a small saddlebag (such as the Cyckit Aeroclam) would be beneficial. Pogacar must be using them for good reason.
Thanks
Incredible cda! I wonder whether jumbo visma's latest giro tt helmet would make him faster ...
6:48 ...isn't it important that the sensor doesn't bounce around like that? If it's constantly changing how the air flows into the tube. At least that's what the instructions for my Aeropod said
Two things...The spot where I stand to take photos and video is a bit bumpy and not actually in the test area. The AeroPro, though, is not susceptible to the bouncing issue (within reason of course). If it were, we wouldn't be able to produce consistent results. It's why I use it. I've only found two sensors that are worth using and this is one of them. The other is Swiss Side's.
@fastorfiction what do you think of the Notio sensor? Is it worth a look? Thanks for the great vids!!!
Nice video, although I think the rider could definitely be a lot more aero. I'm at .157 CdA (consistently) measured on my Aeropod. Old rim brake Shiv TT, HED 3+ trispoke, Roval 321 disc, TriRig front brake, 15 degree risers, mechanical 10-speed SRAM Red, standard Specialized cranks (172.5). I use a POC Tempor or Giro Aerohead depending on wind conditions, and also change tires depending on road conditions, running 70/72psi front/rear. Your rider needs to get his head down more, straighten out his back, and close the gap between the extensions and his chin.
Agreed. I think his hands are actually too high, forcing him to lift his head to see over them. Not a great head to back transition.
I also have almost the exact same set up as you. Fastest bike I've ever ridden and that includes multiple high-end disc brake machines.
Maybe changing to a wider tire? Check out NorCal Cycling videos on tire width- might be dependent upon what the frame can handle.
Great stuff Jim!
@fastorfiction what do you think of the Notio sensor? Is it worth a look? Thanks for the great vids!!!
over what distance?
You didn’t mention rolling resistance did you?
Frontal area has a large effect on "A", but so does surface area and surface finish. As such, it's best to leave CdA as one number and not try to separate the two.
Surface area and finish have no effect on A. The reference area in this is the frontal area. The CD is affected by those, specifically, the skin drag component
Is the “constant area rule” from supersonic flight relevant? I actually teach fluids and don’t know the answer. In the front on picture where you are talking about his elbows in, his quite beefy thighs are obviously contributing to A, but I assume that at least keeping the change in area as you move backwards through the system (dA / dz if you want to geek out) is going to be relevant, and I surmise that you do NOT want area to go up (as it must from the tip of the tire) to a maximum (which it must again) and THEN BACK DOWN AND UP AGAIN. I presume that hourglasses are slow, but I am not sure how those potential pockets of air with turbulence outside will affect overall airflow.
No, it's not. Interference drag is the biggest part to minimize. You're in the low Reynolds regime, hiding the legs, chest, shoulders is the important bit
Would extensions the conform closer to the forearm help?
Ever heard of belgian Remco Evenepoel in TT ???
I think the TT5 would be interesting. As narrow as his shoulders are now he could probably just about get them completely inside the helmet.
I'd love to see a real world test of a more modern frame if possible to isolate.
Try Sweet Protection Reedemer helmet
This is a great Utube channel !
How about a longer reach?
What crank length is he on?
Buy him a 12 000 $ bike to see if it makes a difference. In all seriousness great video!
So are high hands like that always faster? I'm 6'5" so those numbers are impossible for me. LOL
No, you have to test. I saved about 9W (@ 40kph) going from 30 degrees down to 10 degrees. Haven't tested 0 or 20 degrees yet...
Nah that would be the guy inside of the human power record egg
Dan Bigham's track cda is close to 0.15 and can get under that for shorter events, and he's in a UCI legal position
The biggest thing you can do that everyone forgets is the legs. I would see if you can bring his legs in closer to the frame. That would be the biggest change in area.
9:09 i thought it was FDJ rider lol
thank u for ur video
5 foot that explains it
Most people don’t see how big of a CDA difference between a UCI legal position and not. With the UCI rules applied, I argue 99.9% of riders won’t even make it near .16. In addition, being a smaller rider and riding at a hunched position is a pretty poor combination to attempt to take on bigger more powerful riders, (as an opinion of my own)
Is he racing there with a bottle under the skinsuit ?
women's breats is making them faster for once. it prevent the airflow to get stuck in the belly area lol
Trip strip the frame, and put dimples on the rear disc.
with all respect but with 155cm he would be more areo even wearing a parachute
Too bad a very aerodynamic position isn't one that is the position that can generate high power.
This is something he can explain. That isn't necessarily true because he left out a very important part of the CDA equation, velocity and more specifically what is attached to it. It is squared so that means that it becomes harder to exponentially generate more power to move faster. Plus in a triathlon there is still a running portion so you don't want to use up all of your power on the bike section which he mentioned in his Wout Van Aert's position analysis where he only has to do a (UCI) TT on a bike.
I might add, I do produce a high amount of power for my size and have held up to 6 hrs in the world TT championships!!
151 cm is cheating😂
But that comes with a maximum of 300w ftp