The Robo R2 3D Printer Jams On Some PLA Filaments - Here is Why I Think That Happens
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- The Robo R2 3d printer has had issues printing with certain PLA filaments, and in this video, I iprint a bunch of maker coins to try and find the problem, and I propose a solution.
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Hey Joel, thanks for the video! I have an R2 and got in touch with ColorFabb because of their PLA/PHA jamming, just like you found. Their advice to me was to print with the heat bed off and the door open, to minimise heat creep. It's worked so far for me, even though I never tried anything as large as the moon city.
Haven't tried printing with the plate off, but printing with the door open made a huge difference.
Is the Robo an all metal hot end? Seems that this issue with the softer PLA's happens on all my machines which don't have a PTFE lining.
Can confirm. I have done hundreds of test prints at a previous job and concluded that some softer PLA's just like to jam with all metal hotends. Ludicrous hotend heatsink cooling solutions "solve" the problem, but is very impractical. The best solution is to simply avoid the brands that don't work.
Edit. I should add that heat creep is the culprit. For the best test prints, print out an object with 100% infill. This causes the most heat to back up the nozzle and will give you the toughest print to complete, which should allow for the most comprehensive testing.
Yup, it sure does.
It's not always brand either though. The colorant itself can change the properties of some filaments.
'clicking' for me seems to be not enough heat transfer to the plastic. 3dsolutech clicks badly for me at the same temp that Hatchbox works great. Had to bump the temps up for 3d by like 20deg. Cheap all metal hotends are not that great, lots of tweeking and tuning.
Yep, Robo uses the same Hexagon hotend on all of their printers. Same as the one they used on the old R1 back in 2015.
Thank you so very much for posting this video and enlightening me about "HEAT CREEP" Low air flow due to dirty fan and summer heat. After cleaning the fan and extruder out, my prints were perfect and the jamming went away. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.... You made my day and I greatly appreciate everything you share. SUB FOREVER!!!!
I've had trouble before with Rigid.ink PLA clicking in my UM2 - I cured it by baking the filament at 50C for about four hours. I taped a sheet of card over the hole in the front of the UM2, balanced a piece of card covering most of the hole in the top, cranked the bed up to 90C and stood the roll of filament on a small glass dish to hold it up from the bed. The UM2 holds a surprisingly good 50C inside when you do this. I'd be interested to know if this helps with your clicky filaments too. Cheers!!
I like the Colorfabb PLA/PHA, but I've run into issues with it blocking as well. My supposition was also that it had to do with heat creep and I was able to get better results with a number of tweaks around that.
This was on my Lulzbot Mini, so it's not 100% analogous -- but I definitely think the filament's properties is playing a not-insignificant role in allowing the heat to propagate up the extruder path.
If this printer has a heated bed. Turn it off. Then try the failing filament again. Good luck. Love your channel.
I'll add that to the testing, thank you!
A few things bug me with the hotend design: The fins on the heat sink are short and fat, so low surface area exposed to air to exchange heat and high internal volume to retain heat. The central tube the filament passes through looks thick, so more heat will be conducted up the tube vs finding it's way to the fins. The fan is placed near-ish the heat sink with nothing done to force air to move through the fins. Of course lastly we have the magnetic cover turning the entire assembly into a nearly closed box at the start of the print when the head is next to the bed, where the two part cooling fans will be blowing air in at the hot end and fighting with the one fan trying to blow air in from the other direction. That is where all the print failures were: The first centimeter or so from the bed.
Kludge fix: Keep that cover plate off, take the cold end cooling fan off from where it is and make a cowling that attaches directly to the hexagon cold end and forces air through it. It'll look like what e3d / Lulzbot / Dyze / etc do for their fan mounts, and it works.
Manufacturer's fix: As above, with venting on the back to better allow air to flow through without getting blocked. More & thinner fins on the heat sink to increase that surface area as much as possible. Eliminate the ultra-thick fin at the bottom next to the heat break, it has enough mass and is close enough to the heater that I'd bet it is soaking up enough heat to cause problems just by itself.
Personally, I have found that there is no such thing as a temperature that works for all PLA spools.
In my experience, some PLA works best at 230 C, while others work best at 195 C, and to find this out I must print repeated calibration prints, varying the temperature until I find that sweet spot for just that that particular spool.
This is true for both my Printrbot and my Prusa i3 clone.
So once I find that sweet spot temperature, I mark it on the spool so that I know what settings to choose with when I want to use that particular spool.
Your idea of 205 C as something that tends to work for all PLA just sounds really, really weird to me.
+Paul Gross interesting. I've found the opposite. Most of these spools I've printed on other machines at the same 205c temp, so I thought that would be good for the Robo
3D Printing Nerd - thanks for replying. This 205 C PLA issue is quite a mystery to me.
As far as the 'clicking' goes, my first thought was that it was caused not by the machine, but by using a print temperature that was too high for that particular spool of filament.
If you have the time, I would be interested to see if the PLA that failed could be made to print reliably by dropping the print temperature to 200 C or 195 C.
Thanks again for responding, and I look forward to your reply.
MakerGeeks PLA recommended temperature is 235 C. I use MakerGeeks PLA a lot and I always print at 235 C. At that temperature it prints great but I don't know why it needs the higher temps compared to most other PLAs.
205C has worked for all PLA's I haveused as well, about 6 brands. Even wood PLA prints fine at 205
I used MG for a year and then once they bought the other company and equipment things changed. I suspect their PLA is no longer pure and the formulation is the cause for the temp difference.
Man your a life save. U had just received 2 filaments from maker geek and have has nothing but trouble out of my r2 with it. So I am going to try to take that front plate off.
A odd result indeed, I changed the fan on the heatsink for something more powerfull, soft pla is hard enough on a all metal hot end and lowering the temp (185°-195°) helped me achieve proper retraction (no clicks) and avoid heat creeping up. Maybe that plate helps with pet-g or ABS. Unfortunately for me, the room with my printers is always around 95°F so i constantly have my heatsink fans on 100% or else I'll be able to cook a egg in there.
I had similar issues with the PLA/PHA filament on my E3D V6 whenever the print speed changed. I removed the heat break and added thermal paste between it and the cold end. Since then I have had a much better time with all my prints and no issues with jamming.
You should GMAX a lithophane! Go for the largest one in the world!
Odd. The C2 from Robo has the exact same hotend setup and I have dual extruders on it and not a lick of trouble with heat creep. Two hot extruder and the cover on ... not a problem.
Really? Hmm... What PLA filaments have you run through? What temps do you run?
I have had mixed results with my Robo R2 but that may have to do with my inexperience with printing. Thank you for this!
+Paul Karyakos thank you for watching!
I have had exactly the same problem with the prusa when i ran out of the original pla filament. I could somewhat resolve the problem by setting the retraction to .9 mm - 35 mm/s - 5(yes it's a lot) mm wiping distance to get rid of the stringing. So far it works for me.
I use the noctua fan upgrade which i think reduces the normal airflow by a bit. but i excanged it for a silent 40x40x20 mm fan, which didn't solve the issue though. the clog was just delayed.
The hotend looks like my Hexagon from the MicroDeltaRework. I had the same issues and after two replacement hotends and tweaks on the airflow i gave up. The heatbreak is welded to the heatsink (i've read on some assembly manuals) and in my opinion the welding was bad on mine, so PETG worked and PLA jamed, even Fillamentum.
It IS a Hexagon hot end!
How can you claim it's picky with the filament when your printing with the exact same settings across many different brands of filament. Shouldn't you be adjusting settings for each filament.
I found that Maker Geeks PLA tends to prefer higher temps. I have their White Hot White and Royal Purple. Both print great at about 215 to 220. Though on the spools it recommends 235. I also noticed the filament tends to cool rather fast so if the retraction settings are not right it will cool enough that when pressed back into the hot end it will not have time to fully melt and make it through the hot end without clicking.
+Pilch Plays My tests here used what I thought would be a common ground. Many of the PLA rolls tried here I have printed successfully at 201c-205c on other machines, hence the trial here. I still have a lot of printing to do, and I know for some of this I'm learning as I go. Thank you for watching!
Great test! I also think you should do some massive lithophanes
awesome...can you tell me the name of the material that you used to print the moon base? i got some filament from amazon and all i see on the box is hatchbox PLA...and i am very new to this so any suggestions will be nice. i have had the clicking problem and i will try to do it with out the magnetic cover that blocks the air....also my print bed is new...and is kinda rough...i think this causes prints to stick to the bed so much that i have to use all my strength to get it off..i have to heat the print bed all to way to 100 celsius and still struggle to get it off. i noticed that in the robo videos they have a print bed that is shiny unlike the one i got. any idea about this? i can't get prints off without destroying them and for a 230 lb guy who lifts weights...i find it odd that i have to use all my strength with the scrapper and often have to destroy the model to ever get it off...is this the filament? ill try to include the link below
dagoma.fr/boutique/produit/filaments/filament-chromatik-pla-1-75mm-750g-argent.html
Have you tried seasoning the nozzle? I have had the same issue with those hexagon extruders with PLA. little bit of cooking oil on a paper towel that the filament runs through fixed it for me.
I had a similar problem with the all metal hot end on my Taz 6. It turned out that the hot end fan wasn't aligned quite right and led to misshaped filament at the input point. Filament wouldn't go in our out so i took it to bits and cleared it all.
Great video, so many coins! #highfive
Would be interested in seeing how Hatchbox fares in this printer.
I've run about 10 Kg of Hatchbox PLA through mine without any jamming or clicking. Most at 190 C.
Great videos, i have not a 3d printer, but i have seen all of them. In the future I will buy one, but not at this moment. Do you think you could make a video about 3d printers of houses, or metal printers? Greetings from Spain
If I'm not mistaken, Robo uses the same all-metal hotend that Lulzbot uses. They get it from a chinese supplier called ReprapDiscount.com. While you're right on point that the fan is not positioned correctly (it seems off to the side?) and is far away from the fins, the real issue here (and with a lot of all-metal hotends) is that suppliers don't properly polish the heat break. Heat creep will always happen on all-metal hotends and that is the reason you're supposed to polish the internal of the heat break. Take one of those hotends that hasn't been used yet and check the heat break under a microscope to see if it's polished or scratched from drilling/cnc and you will have your answer.
Not to state the obvious but heat rises. The vent for the printhead enclosure should be through the top not the bottom.
I saw your new ad for matterhackers I think but you did a great job
I like the fact that you said Quebec correctly :)
R2 is a pain to use. Most prints fail. i own one and also own another printer that is 3 times cheaper and it already comes with the dual extruder. I use the same filaments on both printers and only sometimes it completes the print on the R2 and i have to constantly fix issues with it. The other printer i have not yet seen a failed print and the prints are on point. I 100% agree that the R2 is picky with types of filament. I also think they need to fix a lot more on the R2 but I'm no expert, just what i think...
I think that was actually a great series of tests. If you write it down, it'll be SCIENCE! It has been Horribly hot this week. Not a fan. Need more fans.
Would have been great if you'd repeated the maker coin test which failed with the plate on but worked with it off. The basic scientific principle, can you repeat the experiment. As you mention there are many factors that affect filament performance. Repeating the test would have been more conclusive if you had then got the same results. I have an R2 and have only ever had one jam. That was with Proto Pasta's White Matte Fiber filament. I've had mechanical issues with the R2 but it seems to handle most filaments without any issue. Would be happy to compare notes.
I definitely would be curious to see what settings you are using and on which materials.
For PLA I use 210c for the hotted and 60c for the bed I leave the hot end plate on (unless it falls off - Yes that's happened) and leave the door closed. Have you tried touching the heat break while the nozzle is hot? It shouldn't be anything more than barely warm. Two things I've found that make a big difference to being able to product useful prints are adjusting the support and raft settings, without making these changes I find impossible to free the print. SUPPORTS - enable roof and floor, set Z gap to 0.335 and XY gap to 0.8. RAFT - set the air gap to .35
Yeah I don't think it's a heat break issues Joel. I'm running a print right now and the heat sink is almost cold to the touch. I've got the hotend set at 210c and those fins are doing a cool cucumber impersonation.
I am wondering what would be a good controller that can replace the smoothieboard? My smoothieboard is experiencing firmware crashes all the time using symplify3D and the lack of key features in pointerface makes it almost unusable. Seriously though, it has no position readout.... I need that to level the bed and to recover prints.
Anyways, I am using external motor controllers and I would like it to be capable of dual extrusion.
try reducing the AMOUNT of your retraction so that the soft portion of filament is never extracted from the cooled part of the hot end fully.
I'll definitely test that.
I have had pretty good luck with Amz3d black pla and hatchbox pla as well, my current settings are default aside from the temps 195-205 hot end, 80 on the bed most days
Couldn't they just beef up the fan and or put a grill cover versus a plate cover?
I am curious to see how Polymaker PLA would perform with a very hard print (like PolyLite™ PLA with the PrinterHell) as their PLA would soften only above 140˚C thx to the JamFree™ tech.
Very good analysis Joel, thx for the video! I hope your solution can make PolySmooth™ work more reliably, It will save ChaoCoreTech :D
Hi Joel, I'm new to this I bought a Robo 3d R2, I hear this clicking sound part of the print look really smooth but other small layer look rough I notice where it looks rough in when the machine starts making the clicking noise.I have only been able to print files that came on the USB drive like the Benchy boat. Right now I hear it clicking it drive me crazy. When I print anything I download I get this problem. Any suggestions. Happy New Year!!!
Wouldn't the easiest way to fix the problem be to change the amount that the filament retracts?
Possibly, further testing.
Please get the anycubic Kossel some people say it's the best 3d printer under 200$
Ender 2 - the printer is mind blowing how good it is.
A front door with 60 degree bed is certainly not good for PLA. It's probably why it's so easy to jam. This machine is designed with some old concept of ABS printing.
Unfortunately, we don't know if it can print ABS yet.
I'm going to find out tonight. Any specific color you want me to use first? :)
3D Printing Nerd I'm happy with whatever test you do :) Thanks for the good work, Joel!
I placed an order for some of that ORB Polymer PLA you showed in this video but ORB has not shipped my order and is not responding to any of my messages for order updates. Anyone else having trouble with ORB Polymer?
+Matthew LaBerge I've heard from a number of people with that issue. I would initiate a charge back or talk to your credit card company fraud department
That t-shirt is slick!!
i would realy LOVE to have one of this maker coins!
Is robo coming out with the second extruder for the R2 anytime soon?
Will this printer print PETG?
Just a quick question. i'm working on my own 3d printer but can't decide if i should use direct or bowden extruder. what do you recommend and maybe why.
pros and cons. bowden is lighter, can be faster. direct can do flexible filaments. what are your design goals?
My goal is for a 3d printer i can start with working and improve with timd
Thats awsome
Did you forget to tell your conclusions regarding the clicking?
He says that the clicking is also a result of the issue that caused the prints to fail.
Both of my RoboR1'+ did the same thing.
Your opinion please. Love your videos. Flashforge Creator Pro or Creality CR 10S
Stephen Edgar look at the old videos for the Flashforge Creator pro ! It was his (and mine too) first 3d printer ! I highly recommand it btw but haven't test the cr10
Leo is right, the FFCP was my very first printer! It's a workhorse. I haven't used any of their newer FFCP models, but, I hear it's good stuff. I've only used the CR-10, not the CR-10s, so I cannot speak for that specific machine, but the CR-10 itself is a good deal for what you get.
3D Printing Nerd sorry for being such a fanboy ^^
I have had my FF Creator pro for two weeks. The X Axis motor stopped working. Cantacted Flashforge-USA and was told that they will not honor any warranty problems as I bought mine from Amazon. (strange) Flashforge China will be notified. But now I have the opportunity to return the Creator Pro and get something else. Would you opt for a Creality CR-10S if I have to replace the Creator Pro?
Reduce retraction?!?Maybe??
Yep, part of further testing.
okay, I'm back, what have I missed.
+POTDAD Smackfad hey! Not much.
what do you do with all the maker coins that you have?
Give them away!
thats awesome! people who get them are pretty lucky then, especially those who can't 3D print like myself.
Pillowing, heat creep,... How about a video on 3D Printing Technical terms and what they mean with visual examples? Yes, yes to all the naysayers. Anyone can go look them up, but wouldn't it be an interesting video and a useful reference?
+William Hayden that's not a bad idea, man. Let me grok on a way to best explain it.
I got a matterHackers ad ft joe telling on this vid :D
you should be first and solve the elephant foot thats a common problem
The green one sounds life burnt meth
I'm sick 😞
Get better!
666 views 🤔🤔🤔
Here is a question. Why bother doing this unpaid beta testing of the Robo? Clearly the machine wasn't fully tested during development. The more videos you do on it, the worse the machine looks. Heat creep is solved with a good heatsink and cooling on the cold zone and well machined heatbreak. Here is a thought, there is a company in the UK which has a really good handle on designing hotends, and is basically the standard for hotends, that said company has numerous clones and numerous heatsink fan mounts designed by the community. Maybe Robo should -- hmm...do what Prusa, and gCreate did and just use a hotend made by that company and call it a day instead of using a part which is clearly not as good.
Hey man! I do understand what you're saying. I don't think further testing like this will happen, but, I'll continue to poke at the machine to satisfy my own curiosity. Also, I know Lulzbot uses the Hex hotends, and they don't have any issues printing with PLA materials. Perhaps they have a better cooling solution? Either way, I value your opinion, and thank you for the comment.
hey joel, can you revieuw REAL filaments? real-filament.com/
thx
Am I the only person that thinks PLA is "Baby's 1st 3D printing filament" and that real 3d printer tests should be ABS & PETG filaments?
Also, tests of bridging and retraction/depriming instead of a bunch of boring coins?
+Daniel Turner DANIEL! There you are.
Also, all kidding aside. I mostly agree with you. I think, though, a machine should be able to reliably and consistently print Baby's 1st 3D Printing Filament easily. I can print the Colorfabb PLA/PHA all day in my E3Dv6 on my gMax at 201c, so I figured the R2 should be able to do the same. I do have some further results, just not ready for public sharing. If you want, we can continue on email.
I don't see any real reason to print in ABS unless your print requires extra heat resistance or is going to be moving a lot (like a drag chain). Why is ABS so popular?
In the context of a 3d printer review? Because in a machine like the R2 (mostly enclosed build space) it ought to be able to print it fairly easily given the big challenge with ABS for most other printers is that they cannot print in an area that is protected from random drafts of cooler air while the print is ongoing (ABS hates temperature shocks while printing).
However, if it's having issues just printing PLA--regardless of the manufacturer--that doesn't bode well for a $1500 machine in this age of hobbyist 3d printers at less than 1/4 that price that outperform it with the same filaments.
_Annealed_ PLA can easily withstand immersion into boiling water, and is still very difficult to bend, let alone break, just after it has been taken out of boiling water.
This isn't theoretical. I have done this test myself to prove the point, based on the video by *Thomas Sanladerer* where he annealed several types of 3d plastics to test the efficacy of that process.
There are, of course, issues with annealing PLA such as dimensional variations and warping, but I have found, empirically, that these issues can be minimised by _slowly_ ramping the temperature up to 110 C over a 20 minutes holding the temperature for a further 20 minutes, and making the temperature _slowly_ drop over a further 20 minutes. And in any case the dimensional variations are fairly consistent and thus can be compensated for in the print size that is sent to the printer.
When I say slowly cooling, I don't mean just switching-off the oven, I mean using the thermostat to control the temperature to 60 C in small steps over 20 minutes.
The whole picture with annealing PLA is still not clear, but I have have had great success with it and now I routinely anneal PLA prints like buttons that my wife needs for her craft projects because those buttons must withstand repeatedly being put through the washing machine.
In summary - PLA is a clear winner among 3d printed plastics for mechanical properties _when annealing is done properly._
Second
What a waist of time and material. Can you really not be more inventive then printing buttons... Print usable things instead...
Actually, he gives these out to fans that he meets at maker faire events all over the country. They work great for this purpose. Fans react very positively and often ask for them. Not a waste at all. :)
A TALKING CHEETAH??? What??? Also, I bet you meant waste instead of waist. I don't understand why you thinking testing things is a waste. Or waist. A waist waste.