Thanks! They used to be considered good manners but are less common today. Liszt once stopped a student at one of his Weimar masterclasses, urging him to play a brief prelude before beginning his piece. I found that anecdote very interesting and have started doing the same since reading it, I believe it was in Kenneth Hamilton’s book “After the Golden Age.”
@@DynastieArtistique Well, Haydn lived six more years after this was composed. My point is that by the 1790s, this chord wasn't used even by the foremost composers, and so is interesting as an early example.
Jesus christ, I thought you were just going to upload 20 second snippets of the pieces played by others. Fully playing these is INSANE, imagine doing the 1900s. You'd have to come across Ornstein at least twice, what a nightmare that'd be lol. Good luck on your herculean effort, at least the 1800s will be an incredible boost to your precisionous technique!
I appreciate it hahah, yes, it is a personal challenge but very illuminating so far and definitely forces me to come to terms with a lot of new music. I’ve dreamt of playing Ornstein 4 for some years now, if I make it that far in the project then it should definitely go in!
@PianoCurio I have tried to play the last movement of Ornstein's 4th, and I am vastly unprepared even still. Just know it is very satisfying, but be careful with those leaps!
Wow, what a brilliant idea and thanks so much for your generosity in sharing all this music and information! Much appreciated. I look forward to the whole series and will listen avidly.
Oh, how wonderful! I absolutely love what you’ve done here. The idea of going through the years is both very entertaining and educational. As a period keyboard music enthusiast, this is right up my alley and I hope it becomes a series! (No pressure 😅) Kudos for using the period scores and what I assume is the Pianoteq digital fortepiano(?). And I must say, I adore your interpretation style! I love how loose and free flowing your playing is, you don’t play these pieces overly mechanically at all like many do, and your overall sense of dynamics and articulation is delightful. You made a great, varied selection of pieces and you’ve brilliantly captured the essence of each one of them. Bravo! And on a side note, I’m happy to hear the improvised transitions in between pieces, that’s a great period accurate touch!
Thank you so much for the very kind comments, I’m glad to hear you enjoyed it! Yes, it is Pianoteq’s 1796 Broadwood that I’m playing. In fact, I just posted the second in the series last week, played on an 1812 Schöffstoss and featuring sonatas of the 1810s. I do intend to keep the series going and have the whole century sketched out. Thanks again for the kind words!
Wow, what a lovely idea! Now, apart from a few years of musical history as part of my cultural history class I have absolutely no theoretical knowledge of music. So you understand that the way I define these pieces is through melody rather than structure, but one observation if I may… I grew up a fan of Baroque. I simply can’t get enough of Rameau’s harpsichord or Guillemain’s violin. But now with these fall days approaching I tend to find myself listening to later pieces such as these. What I love about them is how they seem closer to man itself rather than his achievements. Alligned more with his emotion, rather than the justification of majesty. Less…grand ships at sea and more…country estate in the fog. But every once every few segments or so, there is this hint of a Baroque melody, which occur well into the 1820s, and the mind is instantly forced to transition back. To lock you, or at least, me, into the depths of the piece, as it were. It is easy to understand the appeal of these works for both the older 18th century listener, and the sons of the enlightenment. To understand what developments took place and why. And personally, being that I am not a fan of the full blown Romantic pieces of the later 19th century, I can appreciate this touch of majesty that the works still retain. Anyway, I’ll keep following these videos. This is a great concept, thank you!
0:10 "Romantic" music is just galant music but with a different arrangement of patterns. That progression I pointed out was usually used in development sections or after the double bar in dances. But in this period and especially Beethoven, used it at the beginning of pieces as a contrast. Really interesting video too I wish you a nice week❤
A very interesting attempt, a continuation is needed! I would like in the general series - the second part of Beethoven's 32nd sonata - where there is a variation almost in a jazz style, and, definitely - Alkan. Without his sonata - at least a sonatina - the scheme of 19th century music will be incomplete.
Field’s sonata reminded me the most of Beethoven’s thematic development, especially in his earlier sonatas. The way the seed germinates, always present but always transforming, was nicely done. Still, the ideas lacked the expression of a Beethoven sonata, for me.
The fact that after Mozart's death the later classical composers tried harder to match his harmonic complexity thanks to his success after his death... Whereas before 1791 they were almost in fairly "insignificant" galant music. That says a lot about the tastes of the public after 1790.
To me, the Cramer sonata in particular plays like imitation Mozart. I actually quite like it, but it puts it in perspective to see that composers were still writing attractive yet backwards-looking stuff like that while Beethoven was writing the Appassionata, or even Dussek writing his later sonatas.
Thanks for sharing. Will be waiting the next ones. A little doubt, what is the name of the piece before the sonata of Dussek, the one that starts at 24:51?
That is just a transitional prelude that I semi-improvised (after a few attempts to come up with something). It was common for pianists during the 19th century.
@@PianoCurio Thanks for the answer. It's something similar to what I've heard in the Last Recital of Dinu Lipatti, where he played transitional arpeggios between each piece.
Except for clementi and cramer where I really find their sonatas sounding pretty well the rest of composers sound like merely improvisations written to me. Riem had a great sonata theme but it sounds like improvised in some parts. Dussek and woelfl have interesting harmony and thematic treatment. Now i understand that anecdote about Beethoven beating Steibelt, it makes sense. He seems like there are many improvisation patterns in his sonsta but they go nowhere, where Beethoven could really master this and take it to a high new level.
@@AlkanLove I had to translate your comment... And you totally misunderstood what i said. The reason why I didn't like these composers was because they sound like improvisations to me, some of them virtuosities, without a clear structure. Very different to great composers like Mozart or Beethoven. I can see English is not your language and you misunderstood my message.
Thanks! Nothing special, equal temp at 440. If it were more realistic for the period, the tunings would be all over the place and the transitions would be a nightmare.
@@PianoCurio Young II, aka Valotti-Young, is worth experimenting with (I think it’s built-in for Pianoteq historical instruments). I think you might like the result, and it would not be obviously unequal to a casual listener. It plays well in all keys, and will introduce a spectrum of “stillness -> shimmer” as you move toward 6 o’clock on the circle of fifths. It makes the modulations count! I love the idea of reconstructing the cultural context of all these lesser known sonatas, and it would be amazing to hear them in something like their original “unequal” state.
@@jaurisova6 very interesting, that one is unfamiliar to me and I have admittedly not experimented enough with alternate tunings. Thanks for the suggestion!
This is perfect. You should do a timeline for the evolution of the Mozart family: th-cam.com/play/PLo4FXejHsua4x5-fjzfDsAOlTwAl1KkLO.html&si=Im1a5LbWYPbpSXjZ
Ugh, big missed opportunity on my end. A Reicha sonata would have been beter than the Riem sonata in 1804, but it didn't show up in my IMSLP search by publication date! I'll have to refine my research process to make sure I don't miss any others like that. I do have the 100 sonatas outlined already, but the list is in constant flux until the moment I decide to record. Thanks as always for watching.
@@gmfrunzik Try his most famous piano work for starters, his 36 Fugues. It doesn't sound very exciting, but what he does in each piece is quite extraordinary for the time. Several more of his piano works have now been recorded, including some fascinating Sonatas on the Toccata Classics label.
@@markodern789 I had fun playing it despite it not being very interesting as a piece of composition. I also find it interesting to hear how popular tastes have changed
This video shows very well why I think Beethoven was the best of them all: The other composers' sonatas simply lack substance and identity. Their music may be enjoyable and there _are_ good themes, but most of the time it sounds like they just strung together rather dull episodes of decorated improvisations without any direction or development. There's no thematic identity. Take for example the strain at 15:15 - 16:25, it's a chorale but.. what does he want to say here? I don't see any real thought or material. In contrast, I think most of Beethoven's Sonatas have unique and memorable character and melody. He knew how to develop one or two motifs to a coherent and really "composed" movement. Compare the same section (15:15) to the middle episode in the 4th movement (Allegro assai) of Beethoven's Sonata No. 3 Op. 2 No. 3. He also starts with a simple chorale, but then he switches hands, varies it with 8th note figures, adds a new melody and eventually restates and modulates the chorale to the main theme.
Btw this doesn't hold for every piece. I really like Eberl's Rondo Vivace (the last piece here), it's one of the better ones. Also the section at 10:14 is great and I would rank it on Beethoven's level
I think you pinpointed one of the big takeaways of this experiment, for me. There are some good, interesting, and rewarding things throughout, and some other parts that are just fine but not stellar, but many of these are pasted together with subpar materials. Beethoven just set a new standard that we still value today. We do still find some unique outliers that I will go to bat for (Dussek), but he was still no Beethoven. I do genuinely enjoy exploring these forgotten works and yet this project forces me to play some things that I don't absolutely love, so it's a fun challenge. I do intend to feature the century's most famous sonatas in this project, but there are remarkably few when you limit it to one per composer (less than 10, perhaps). That really puts it all into perspective. You also rightly pointed out the single most boring passage in the video! I wanted to like that Riem sonata movement, but it just drags in the middle section. Eberl's music was a nice surprise, very conservative but quaint and attractive. And yes, that section at 10:14 gives me Schubertian chills; Pinto was only 17 and died a few years later!
It was published posthumously in 1809. As I noted in the description, I took some liberties in ordering the sonatas because they often belong to multiple years. Some were composed over a few years and first published several years later. In this case, I couldn’t pass up Dussek’s 1807 sonata, so I counted Eberl’s sonata publication date. Some years have extremely slim pickings or the sonatas just aren’t very good, so I find it necessary interpret the dates flexibly.
That word comes from the Grove Music article on Steibelt that describes his personality as "extraordinarily vain, arrogant, discourteous, recklessly extravagant and even dishonest." Apparently he had kleptomania as well. Sounds a bit harsh, but his personality must have been abrasive enough earn him that reputation.
Splendid. A few familiar faces - Field, Cramer, Clementi, Dussek, and some that were completely new and exciting to me. Riem especially. I can't wait for the next parts of the series! Edit: should've been a comment not a reply 😅
I love this concept and I’m looking forward to seeing it completed
I’m looking forward to the 1900s lol
@@KaikhosruShapurjiMedtner 1900s start off with the Dukas sonata, should be an interesting one whenever I make it there!
@@KaikhosruShapurjiMedtner In my case, to the 1700s
@@PianoCurio 1910s have some great stuff, Medtner Night Wind (1911), Feinberg 3 (1916), Sorabji sonata 1 (1919), I think some Enescu (maybe).
@@KaikhosruShapurjiMedtner don't forget rachmaninoff 1913
I love the little (historically accurate) improvisations you do in between segments
Thanks! They used to be considered good manners but are less common today. Liszt once stopped a student at one of his Weimar masterclasses, urging him to play a brief prelude before beginning his piece. I found that anecdote very interesting and have started doing the same since reading it, I believe it was in Kenneth Hamilton’s book “After the Golden Age.”
12:31 what an interesting chord for 1803, an augmented 7th!
It's not strange at all, on the contrary, decently common practice for the time
@@DynastieArtistique Really? Which Haydn or Mozart or sonatas have augmented 7th chords in them?
@ I don’t exactly keep tabs on every aug7 chord I encounter, also this is past Mozart and haydns time
@@DynastieArtistique Well, Haydn lived six more years after this was composed. My point is that by the 1790s, this chord wasn't used even by the foremost composers, and so is interesting as an early example.
This is epic
Jesus christ, I thought you were just going to upload 20 second snippets of the pieces played by others. Fully playing these is INSANE, imagine doing the 1900s. You'd have to come across Ornstein at least twice, what a nightmare that'd be lol. Good luck on your herculean effort, at least the 1800s will be an incredible boost to your precisionous technique!
I appreciate it hahah, yes, it is a personal challenge but very illuminating so far and definitely forces me to come to terms with a lot of new music. I’ve dreamt of playing Ornstein 4 for some years now, if I make it that far in the project then it should definitely go in!
@PianoCurio I have tried to play the last movement of Ornstein's 4th, and I am vastly unprepared even still. Just know it is very satisfying, but be careful with those leaps!
What a fun project!! Great work.
Bomtempo is an excellent composer! Thanks
Wow, what a brilliant idea and thanks so much for your generosity in sharing all this music and information! Much appreciated. I look forward to the whole series and will listen avidly.
LOVE this Dussek sonata!
Oh, how wonderful! I absolutely love what you’ve done here. The idea of going through the years is both very entertaining and educational. As a period keyboard music enthusiast, this is right up my alley and I hope it becomes a series! (No pressure 😅)
Kudos for using the period scores and what I assume is the Pianoteq digital fortepiano(?). And I must say, I adore your interpretation style! I love how loose and free flowing your playing is, you don’t play these pieces overly mechanically at all like many do, and your overall sense of dynamics and articulation is delightful. You made a great, varied selection of pieces and you’ve brilliantly captured the essence of each one of them. Bravo!
And on a side note, I’m happy to hear the improvised transitions in between pieces, that’s a great period accurate touch!
Thank you so much for the very kind comments, I’m glad to hear you enjoyed it! Yes, it is Pianoteq’s 1796 Broadwood that I’m playing. In fact, I just posted the second in the series last week, played on an 1812 Schöffstoss and featuring sonatas of the 1810s. I do intend to keep the series going and have the whole century sketched out. Thanks again for the kind words!
Thanks a lot for Bomtempo, I found Menuet and Rondo from that sonata very catchy back in 2022
Thank you - not only for the excellent selection, but also for the beautiful connecting music - a feast for the ears!
Wow, what a lovely idea!
Now, apart from a few years of musical history as part of my cultural history class I have absolutely no theoretical knowledge of music. So you understand that the way I define these pieces is through melody rather than structure, but one observation if I may…
I grew up a fan of Baroque. I simply can’t get enough of Rameau’s harpsichord or Guillemain’s violin. But now with these fall days approaching I tend to find myself listening to later pieces such as these. What I love about them is how they seem closer to man itself rather than his achievements. Alligned more with his emotion, rather than the justification of majesty. Less…grand ships at sea and more…country estate in the fog. But every once every few segments or so, there is this hint of a Baroque melody, which occur well into the 1820s, and the mind is instantly forced to transition back. To lock you, or at least, me, into the depths of the piece, as it were.
It is easy to understand the appeal of these works for both the older 18th century listener, and the sons of the enlightenment. To understand what developments took place and why. And personally, being that I am not a fan of the full blown Romantic pieces of the later 19th century, I can appreciate this touch of majesty that the works still retain.
Anyway, I’ll keep following these videos. This is a great concept, thank you!
Exciting, never stop (well, you can stop when you get to 1899, I suppose)
The transitions between the pieces are so good!
I love this vídeo style
Thanks, more on the way!
Instant like. Looking forward to this completed series
0:10 "Romantic" music is just galant music but with a different arrangement of patterns.
That progression I pointed out was usually used in development sections or after the double bar in dances.
But in this period and especially Beethoven, used it at the beginning of pieces as a contrast.
Really interesting video too
I wish you a nice week❤
Cool insight, thank you!
Wow, what a project and so interisting! Good luck!
Superb idea. Amazing how much changed in music in that 100 years.
A very interesting attempt, a continuation is needed!
I would like in the general series - the second part of Beethoven's 32nd sonata - where there is a variation almost in a jazz style,
and, definitely - Alkan. Without his sonata - at least a sonatina - the scheme of 19th century music will be incomplete.
I assure you Alkan will be included!
Great selection! Not just cool idea, but very nice taste in choosing these sonatas.
Very original type of vids! I'm looking forward for the next decades ;)
Clementi ---the best
great project! subscribed and anxious for the next chapters!
What a fantastic project! You're a wonderful musician and a clever and generous person. Subscribing and keeping posted.
Please keep going. 😃
The Cramer is charming ❤
Field shows the most temperament. With the exception of a daring chord from Dussek (which soon fizzled out), the rest is harmless ear-Candy.
Field’s sonata reminded me the most of Beethoven’s thematic development, especially in his earlier sonatas. The way the seed germinates, always present but always transforming, was nicely done. Still, the ideas lacked the expression of a Beethoven sonata, for me.
@@PianoCurio It’s that old C minor syndrome at work!
awesome
Joseph Woelfl sounds like Mozart.
The fact that after Mozart's death the later classical composers tried harder to match his harmonic complexity thanks to his success after his death... Whereas before 1791 they were almost in fairly "insignificant" galant music. That says a lot about the tastes of the public after 1790.
To me, the Cramer sonata in particular plays like imitation Mozart. I actually quite like it, but it puts it in perspective to see that composers were still writing attractive yet backwards-looking stuff like that while Beethoven was writing the Appassionata, or even Dussek writing his later sonatas.
Thanks for sharing. Will be waiting the next ones. A little doubt, what is the name of the piece before the sonata of Dussek, the one that starts at 24:51?
That is just a transitional prelude that I semi-improvised (after a few attempts to come up with something). It was common for pianists during the 19th century.
@@PianoCurio Thanks for the answer. It's something similar to what I've heard in the Last Recital of Dinu Lipatti, where he played transitional arpeggios between each piece.
Except for clementi and cramer where I really find their sonatas sounding pretty well the rest of composers sound like merely improvisations written to me. Riem had a great sonata theme but it sounds like improvised in some parts. Dussek and woelfl have interesting harmony and thematic treatment. Now i understand that anecdote about Beethoven beating Steibelt, it makes sense. He seems like there are many improvisation patterns in his sonsta but they go nowhere, where Beethoven could really master this and take it to a high new level.
ベートーヴェンは単純に音楽を激しくしただけです。
クレメンティのピアノソナタ「協奏曲風」に影響されたベートーヴェンはその1年後にピアノソナタ3番を書いています。
2つの曲に用いられた技巧を比べると圧倒的にベートーヴェンの方が激しい技巧を用いています。
ただそれだけの違いでベートーヴェンは凄いと思わせてる、または聴衆がそう思うだけです。
技巧が華やかでカッコイイや凄いと言う観点は後の超絶技巧に繋がる要素で、その技巧に見せられた人達は、そこまでの技巧を持っていない曲に対して取るに足りないと、技巧面に釣られて音楽性までも否定してしまいます😢
これは非常に愚かで音楽的に浅い者が言う感想でしかありません。
明るく平和な曲には価値は無いのですか?
簡素な曲に価値は無いのですか?
それでも素晴らしい音楽を作曲家達は書いているはずです。
何故激しい技巧ばかりに目を向けるのですか?それは曲芸に目を奪われているだけです。
@@AlkanLove English please i can't translate it
曲芸が悪いと言っているのではありません、それは勿論凄いことです。
ただそれに釣られて平和的、純粋、単純などの音楽作品をゴミ同然に扱うのは間違っています。
人々はショパンやリスト、マーラーの様な鬱的な暗い要素を多く孕んでいる作曲家を好きと言う傾向がありますが、アルカンやエルンストだったりの様に人生を照らしてくれる太陽の様な存在もいるのです。
その様な明るい面も認めてあげて下さい。
@@AlkanLove I had to translate your comment... And you totally misunderstood what i said. The reason why I didn't like these composers was because they sound like improvisations to me, some of them virtuosities, without a clear structure. Very different to great composers like Mozart or Beethoven. I can see English is not your language and you misunderstood my message.
Beautifully played! What’s the temperament you’re using?
Thanks! Nothing special, equal temp at 440. If it were more realistic for the period, the tunings would be all over the place and the transitions would be a nightmare.
@@PianoCurio Young II, aka Valotti-Young, is worth experimenting with (I think it’s built-in for Pianoteq historical instruments). I think you might like the result, and it would not be obviously unequal to a casual listener. It plays well in all keys, and will introduce a spectrum of “stillness -> shimmer” as you move toward 6 o’clock on the circle of fifths. It makes the modulations count!
I love the idea of reconstructing the cultural context of all these lesser known sonatas, and it would be amazing to hear them in something like their original “unequal” state.
@@jaurisova6 very interesting, that one is unfamiliar to me and I have admittedly not experimented enough with alternate tunings. Thanks for the suggestion!
riem's sonata kinda reminds me of chopins first polonaise in g minor
This is perfect. You should do a timeline for the evolution of the Mozart family:
th-cam.com/play/PLo4FXejHsua4x5-fjzfDsAOlTwAl1KkLO.html&si=Im1a5LbWYPbpSXjZ
PS you must include Reicha in these early sonata suggestions!
Ugh, big missed opportunity on my end. A Reicha sonata would have been beter than the Riem sonata in 1804, but it didn't show up in my IMSLP search by publication date! I'll have to refine my research process to make sure I don't miss any others like that. I do have the 100 sonatas outlined already, but the list is in constant flux until the moment I decide to record. Thanks as always for watching.
@@PianoCurio Reicha as a separate video would always be welcomed! Such an innovator!
@@4candles absolutely, adding it to the brainstorming list!
@@4candlescould you recommend some pieces by him?
@@gmfrunzik Try his most famous piano work for starters, his 36 Fugues. It doesn't sound very exciting, but what he does in each piece is quite extraordinary for the time. Several more of his piano works have now been recorded, including some fascinating Sonatas on the Toccata Classics label.
What VST midi controller or digital piano are you using?
Yamaha N1X
4:14 존필드 소나타가
어떻게 3번이 첫작품이 되었나요?
I absolutely loved the steibelt sonata. Never heard it before.
It was a fun discovery for me too!
It was very bland and contrived, no?
@@markodern789 I had fun playing it despite it not being very interesting as a piece of composition. I also find it interesting to hear how popular tastes have changed
How his sonata has been composed in 1809 if Anton Eberl is died in 1807 ?
Published posthumously
This video shows very well why I think Beethoven was the best of them all: The other composers' sonatas simply lack substance and identity.
Their music may be enjoyable and there _are_ good themes, but most of the time it sounds like they just strung together rather dull episodes of decorated improvisations without any direction or development. There's no thematic identity. Take for example the strain at 15:15 - 16:25, it's a chorale but.. what does he want to say here? I don't see any real thought or material.
In contrast, I think most of Beethoven's Sonatas have unique and memorable character and melody. He knew how to develop one or two motifs to a coherent and really "composed" movement.
Compare the same section (15:15) to the middle episode in the 4th movement (Allegro assai) of Beethoven's Sonata No. 3 Op. 2 No. 3. He also starts with a simple chorale, but then he switches hands, varies it with 8th note figures, adds a new melody and eventually restates and modulates the chorale to the main theme.
Btw this doesn't hold for every piece. I really like Eberl's Rondo Vivace (the last piece here), it's one of the better ones. Also the section at 10:14 is great and I would rank it on Beethoven's level
I think you pinpointed one of the big takeaways of this experiment, for me. There are some good, interesting, and rewarding things throughout, and some other parts that are just fine but not stellar, but many of these are pasted together with subpar materials. Beethoven just set a new standard that we still value today. We do still find some unique outliers that I will go to bat for (Dussek), but he was still no Beethoven. I do genuinely enjoy exploring these forgotten works and yet this project forces me to play some things that I don't absolutely love, so it's a fun challenge. I do intend to feature the century's most famous sonatas in this project, but there are remarkably few when you limit it to one per composer (less than 10, perhaps). That really puts it all into perspective.
You also rightly pointed out the single most boring passage in the video! I wanted to like that Riem sonata movement, but it just drags in the middle section. Eberl's music was a nice surprise, very conservative but quaint and attractive. And yes, that section at 10:14 gives me Schubertian chills; Pinto was only 17 and died a few years later!
how is it possible that Eberl’s sonata was written in 1809 but he died in 1807??
It was published posthumously in 1809. As I noted in the description, I took some liberties in ordering the sonatas because they often belong to multiple years. Some were composed over a few years and first published several years later. In this case, I couldn’t pass up Dussek’s 1807 sonata, so I counted Eberl’s sonata publication date.
Some years have extremely slim pickings or the sonatas just aren’t very good, so I find it necessary interpret the dates flexibly.
Such basic music, oh how far and wide we have come.
Meanwhile in the same decade, Beethoven wrote sonatas 11-25 including the Moonlight, Pastoral, Tempest, Waldstein, and Appassionata.
Yes, Beethoven is a superior composer for his time above his peers and a crucial point in delivering Romantic style to composition, along with Hummel.
Why was Steibelt dishonest?
That word comes from the Grove Music article on Steibelt that describes his personality as "extraordinarily vain, arrogant, discourteous, recklessly extravagant and even dishonest." Apparently he had kleptomania as well. Sounds a bit harsh, but his personality must have been abrasive enough earn him that reputation.
@@PianoCurio tks for answering
Splendid. A few familiar faces - Field, Cramer, Clementi, Dussek, and some that were completely new and exciting to me. Riem especially. I can't wait for the next parts of the series!
Edit: should've been a comment not a reply 😅
can I ask you why the music doesn’t match the score at 15:51?
Sure, I chose to ornament the repeats since that section sounded too dry without them, just a matter of personal taste.