As someone with cerebral palsy I feel that for the most part disability is represented very well in 40K. In Master of Mankind there is Dominion Zephon who is a Blood Angels captain-equivalent who lost an arm and a leg, has them replaced with bionics but the bionics don't mesh with his nerves properly. This leaves him unable to control his body the way he wants to with him having his natural reflexes for his flesh and blood limbs but his prosthetics 'betray' him by spasming and not having the same range of motion. This is exactly how I feel about my own condition because it is in essence the same thing. Half of his body is just not the same as the other half. I feel the same for Ravenor when he projects from the chair. Having that freedom while he is outside but knowing that he'll have to return to an exceptionally limiting form at the end of it all is a familiar feeling. Not to get too personal but my diagnosis didn't come until my mid 20's despite having had an advocate who knew what she was talking about taking me to the doctors since I was a few months old for things that should have really been taken more seriously than they were. As such I got to experience my mobility degrading to the point where I couldn't walk much more than 50 metres/yards without both of legs essentially painfully locking up and making me look like I was walking without any joints. While I'm not in a wheelchair so I can't speak for that side of the community I definitely can relate to the feeling of having had something and lost it and if I had the chance to briefly regain it I'd jump (figuratively) at it. Good question from Liam.
The Ravenor trilogy is my favorite Dan Abnett book series. It even tops Eisenhorn for me. I really enjoy how the crippled condition of Ravenor makes the supporting characters around him really much more important (as compared to Eisenhorn), and I very much enjoy the ensemble-style of story telling of Ravenor. Harlon Nayl, Kara Swole and Patience Keyes are three of my favorite WH40k characters. The vulnerability of Ravenor also makes him much more relatable than Eisenhorn. Finally, the story-arc of Carl Thonius is fascinating.
^^this right here. Loved Eisenhorn novels but it's very much Gregors adventure with a supporting cast along for the ride whereas Ravenor through his disability is the leader of a team of very interesting very capable individuals in their own right and they're on the journey together.
@@Steven-qb7vn Indeed, very much Gregor's Adventure Time. That's why I love the Pariah/Bequin series so much as it features Gregor (and Ravenor for that matter!) as a side character! Really fun perspective.
One of my favourite details is on Flint the oldest buildings where made from the horns of mature creatures that they hunt that will never grow that big again because of the rate at which they farm them
There is a short story that is sort of a prequel to Ravenor in which Ravenor 'finds' Patience Kys (its very grimdark). I wonder if Ian read that if he would like her more... her 'character' is to some extent a 'character' that she is projecting to hide her humanity. There is more to Kys then the 'femme fatale badass assassin' exterior. I rather wished Abnett had developed her more into a Interrogator rather than just a warrior, I think she would have made an interesting inquisitor, and as an Interrogator she'd have been even more intimidating to Thonius.
Ian's description of "lucky space" makes me think of the bit in "Mote in God's Eye" where a couple characters are waxing philosophical, and one of them points out that although the Second Empire of Man claims to rule a massive portion of the galaxy, it isn't really true. What the Empire actually controls is a series of "bubbles" surrounding stars like raisins in a muffin - and then they use FTL to jump to the next bubble, never seeing or understanding the "bread" in between.
Yall gotta read The Magos. Has Patience's back story it's very simular to Bequin 2 and makes her brief convos with her really interesting. A good bridge between Eisenhorn and Ravenor. Also just a great book with awesome characters and stories that don't seem related untill the end.
Brilliant Review. Thanks Ian and Mira. I agree that the city in this book is perfectly describes post industrial, decline and hopelessness for many. The restrictions placed on Ravenor's powers are kind of put there just so there is a plot rather than Ravenor just solving everything.
I've been looking forward to this! First off, I like to see how far these book club videos have come. I think the discussion has a much better structure than with the Eisenhorn books, well done. Ravenor is an interesting book, I think the trilogy is more 'together' than the Eisenhorn ones, better paced for sure, and although none of the characters come even close to being as compelling as Gregor, the average quality of the ensemble is much better. Ravenor himself especially is very interesting, he's like an edgy Stephen Hawking starring in a detective action story. It is very cool. I like how you want to like him, he gives every reason for you to like him, he never trespasses as deep into heresy as Gregor, but every once and a while the bitterness/creepiness that comes with being in this sorry state for decades comes in and keeps you on edge. Also, the irony of Gideon functioning like a mini pseudo-emperor is not lost on me. The villains are in my opinion also much better than in Eisenhorn, in those books, I feel like the actual events and characters of the story are just a backdrop to the arc of Gregor, here the story is much more pronounced, and it's a welcome change. It's not better or worse, but it gives the Ravenor trilogy a strong identity. Regarding some of the questions posed, I really dislike the null-blockers and another plot device that is introduced in Ravenor Returned. Contained within the Abnett books they are fine, but they take out the wind of other 40k stories, and make you wonder "well why didn't they just use blockers?". But I digress. I am looking forward to the next episode!
Thank you both so much for doing this series, it's got me back into reading black library novels especially the first couple of Horus Hersey books. What an absolute amazing episode on Ravenor!
A fun fact: Here in Brazil we have a famous city called Petropolis - but is far from a "futuristic" "dystopian" - it`s the city where the royal family (the empire lasted until 1889) lived and the heirs still receive dividends for the use of various properties. Congrats Mira and Ian - your book club videos are the best!
Personally I found the Ravenor books to be the best of them all! The closest thing to Cyberpunk in the 40K universe, cursed drugs, body augmentation aplenty and so many shades of William Gibson but with that Abnett flair!
If 40k cyberpunk is your thing, I definitely suggest giving some of the Warhammer Crime books a look if you haven't! Bloodlines by Chris Wraight and Flesh and Steel by Guy Haley are fun reads.
Kara Swole is by far my favorite character of the whole Eisenhorn/Ravenor/Parriah-book, followed by Harlon...and I think that he is way more complex as to be played by 'The Rock'. More Tom Hardy-type. Anyway, Kara is somehow the most 'human' of them. Oh, and I love Wystan: Most underrated :D
I think the disability representation issue in any sci-fi setting is always made much harder due to 'future technology magics' being able to nullify most disabilities. Realistically you're only likely to encounter a character with a disability if they were also in the lower strata of society, otherwise they would have the credits to be able to have augmetics, gene-splicing, or vat-grown replacements. I remember in one of the Necromunda books there's an Escher ganger who loses an arm and it gets replaced with an augmetic by a rogue doc, but it's always causing her pain and getting infected. Maybe a good instance of representation would have her discard the arm and learn to manage with what she had, but she wasn't a main character and I don't recall what happened. Ravenor's body was so utterly broken that he is only able to function due to him being a mini-Emperor psychic encased in his own Golden Throne solely due to the unlimited resources of the Inquisition. But Black Library has a talented pool of writers so here's hoping. I love to see the two of you run an RPG, could use the Dark Heresy setting but adapt the Traveller ruleset? Or there the new Rogue Trader crpg that's been announced recently, maybe do a playalong together when that comes out?
Always loved the Ravenor books. As a character, I have much more sympathy for him than Eisenhorn. Him being less xenophobic than most Imperials certainly helps
I don't know about the character. Sure especially early Eisenhorn has big OC-do-not-steal-energy, but with Ravenor's standoff-ish-ness and repeated questionable use of unquestioned authority... Ravenor just makes me feel icky in a way. So especially with the Magos and Bequin having Eisenhorn being forced to reckon with who he has been for the last few centuries I like Eisendad a lot more than weird (handsy) uncle Ravenor.
IIRC there is a bit where Ravenor is reflecting on why he chose Carl as his Interogator; he pretty much says he didn't need a fighter (he had fighters; Nayl, Kara, Will and later Patientce) what he needed was an intellectual peer. Carl is someone learned and savy that Gideon can talk to and they can reason/work cases out between them. Carl's technical ability and charm also fills a gap in Ravenor's team.
I have to say i like how Frauka's creepiness was handled somewhat ambiguously at times. Like, is he really that creepy, or is that just how people feel around him, because he's a null? And if he is all that creepy is it because he is born like that, being a null, or because he just never learned how not be creepy because people always shunned him?
I just wanted to write that I am new to your channel and I’m truly enjoying your videos. I have been a fan of a few other WH lore TH-camrs and although they may be arguably more entertaining, you provide understandable information that it’s captivating. I have been an on again, off again fan of GW and WH 40k but your videos make me want to pick a chapter and totally invest
Re: limiters: in these and the Bequins the concept of limiting blanks confuses. If the human default is visible to ESP (0) and psychers have ESP that can be limited (+1), blanks are effectively -1, in that they are the norm less visibility to ESP. So the limiter is adding -1 to -1, which does not equal 0. Calling it a mask would make more sense.
Absolutely love Thonius, and for the exact reasons you discussed. You have an idea of what an inquisitorial agent is: grim, serious, authoritarian, intimidating. And Thonius is none of those things, BUT! He's still good at his job!
Just finished the book last night. Didn't predict the Ministerials' double cross. I'm convinced that a big part of the reason is because I couldn't help but project Dedra Meero onto Madsen, which made me treat her like a hardliner and true believer. Wonder if anyone else who's read Ravenor post-Andor had a similar experience?
Oh yes! make sure Mira reads the Magos. It might be a side story but it is a really awesome one, Valentine Drusa is one of my favorite characters. If you got the chance, start with the short story The curiosity and The Gardens of Tycho before the Magos.Would love to hear your thoughts about them too.
I loved the Ravenor books! Although the thing is, I loved the Eisenhorn books so much that I kept wanting the Ravenor books to be Eisenhorn books. :) The Pariah books are (imo) absolutely terrific and I've been waiting for the third Bequin book with baited breath. They might be my favorite of all. Thank you for these book club videos, I enjoy them very much!
I think I’ve said it before, but I would really like to see Mira play inquisitor. Especially, I’d like to see the 40K Character she creates when given the incredible freedom that game gives you.
The thing I loved about the first book particularly (it happens less so in the subsequent novels) is the way it tells the story of the principle agent almost entirely through a cast of other characters. It's like character building by proxy, which I found to be a fascinating idea. Typing this before I've watched the video so probably I'm just going to have ended up repeating what they say.
Just watching this now as I'm working through your 40K Book Club videos. On the point of representation of disability in 40K I can't help but notice that the cover art for the ebook Ravenor omnibus doesn't feature Ravenor in his suspension chair, but rather features two other characters front and centre, which I think are Harlan Nayl and Patience Kys, with a projection of Ravenor stood behind them. Optics wise that says a lot really.
This book was a different experience for me as I read Eisenhorn Magos first. This was great as I was already introduced to Ravernor's new form, Carl and Patience. Having that introduction to them and some of their the fates hinted at in Magos made this really interesting for me!
19:34 That was basically my first thought when I saw the cover for the omnibus. I wonder if that's intentional. 34:15 Pretty sure there were drugged twist clowns getting horribly slaughtered in the Carnivora. Because that place is just messed up. 48:00 There's a bit like this in this book that has always stuck with me. Ravenor's gang tries to track down a suspect and they ask one of his relatives if she knows where he is, and she has two brothers who are stuck inside life support tanks after an industrial accident. It's never outright stated, but I feel like the point of that scene is to compare/contrast their state with Ravenor's. He gets to have a hover chair, they are kept in these barely functioning, disgusting tanks, all because he is "useful" to the Imperium, while they are not. Less about representation, more about how much the Imperium sucks, I suppose. One thing that wasn't mentioned but has always bugged me about this book: why don't the bad guys just kill Ravenor and his crew, instead of merely locking them up and steering the ship into the sun? That's classic villain stupidity right there. Kinda drags the whole thing down. Anyway, looking forward to _Ravenor Returned_ Though it would make sense to read the short story _Thorn Wishes Talon_ first. Never understood why that wasn't just part of the book.
Love the Ravenor ensemble, the one thing I couldn't resist in my long-running Wrath and Glory tabletop campaign was some generational links to some of this crew
There's a disabled character in Dan Abnett's Double Eagle that is seen as not being capable and strong enough, who proves he can actually do more than most and proves everyone wrong for dismissing him.
Regarding representation of disability, I would be interested to hear your (and others!) take on Double Eagle, where a former PDF fighter pilot who has lost a thumb and can't fly anymore. He starts the book struggling to work as a member of aircraft ground crew, but then later is grabbed by an imperial guard airborne commander and given back his wings, and the squadron's technicians modify his fighter to accept voice input for the weapons system, so he doesn't have to use his missing thumb.
beautiful video, thanks. i don´t think that the 40K Universe is a really good environment for representation of most disabilities, because of the abundance of augmentations. they may be sometimes bad or cheap, but they work sufficient enough, sometimes it´s even an upgrade. ears, eyes, limbs: the old, weak flesh can be upgraded. one situation in gaunts ghost´s (which i would not consider Mira´s cup of tea, typical frontlinestories): one of the main characters looses its eyes (in the later books) and in on of the stories he now has the ability to drive in the dark like it´s daytime. though at the end of the book where this happens he receives a very truly sad message and has to admit that his new eyes can´t even cry although he does want to. and there is the ex-sniper who does loose his larynx i think (?) and after he get´s the augmentation can´t shoot good enough anymore so he is degraded to normal soldier. well, nevermind. there are two universes where the answer would be easy and clear for me if i want to life in it: Star Trek (of course! forever) and Warhammer 40K (of course not! not even for a second).
16:00 old sub’s fave: “meat is hung, people are Hanged”. A priest who “got hung” risks a double entendre, ne that would substantially detract from their apparent holiness.
I little bit late to leave a comment. But want to say thank you Ian and Mira! I've just started to read this ""ninelogy" this year. I'm one of those readers who likes to discuss books. Frankly none of my friends are interesed in w40k books, and my father got whole Expanse series on the list. But I've got my reading journals and you guys!
Speaking of Dark Heresy, have you read the novels that came out with that? Scourge the Heretic and Innocence Proves Nothing. Amazing books that you and Mira would love. Unfortunately, the third book never was released because Dark Heresy went defunct, or something like that, so the books stop in the middle of the story, but still some amazing gumshoe work. It is the acolytes of the inquisitor running around and doing stuff. Great stories!
Spoiler!!! Flects are pieces of glass/mirror that have been immersed in the warp and have absorded dark energies and when viewed they have a hallucinogenic effect.
It’s a chaos infused drug. Materials that are mixed with the drug, glass I think, comes from a section of space that was cut off for centuries and everything was basically infused by the warp and they add that to the drug was makes it very addictive
Most of these advanced sci fi settings are good for portraying physical disabilities since they can clone limbs, organs or just have bionics. You could do it of course but its going to take more time to work it out and make it interesting
Do you guys take turn reading the same book or buy duplicates? Just a thought you could both listen to the audio books, Toby Longworth is a top notch narrator.
Mira reads the paper book, i tend to read the ebook. Neither of us enjoy audio books. Personally, I can't listen to them without immediately tuning out and forgetting anything the droning voice has said for the last half hour!
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the ravenor books were meant to flog the dark heresy RPGs. I know there were actually DH books ,(which weren't nearly as good), but I always thought ravenors characters was like a d&d party. One of the things DH emphasized was that the inquisitor was supposed to be used as a plot device more than an NPC, so ravenors being in the background kinda makes sense in that context. This is one of the first 40k novels I read, mostly because it was an adventure story. I read the anthologies a lot, but didn't know if I could get through a full novel of WAR, grimdark WAR, so this was a great intro. Zeph looked like Marvel's bishop in my head, wystan looks like Joey Ramone, preest was Janeway, nayl was vin Diesel with a goatee. As for, Patience kys, c'mon, she isn't a Mary Sue, she has a tragic back story!!
Late comment, but anyway: if you want more of the "Investigation" style 40k books you could check out the Shira Calpurnia trilogy. Not inquisitor, but Adeptus Arbites so still that "detective" feeling.
The set up of Ravenor makes me think of Jeffrey Deaver's Lincoln Rhyme, the first which was adapted into a Denzel Washington and Angelina Jolie movie. Come to think of it, I think the late 90's and early aughts had a ton of profiling/intellectual investigators in the media over here in the US.
Love those videos! I also loved your ranking of best horus heresy, do you plan on doing such a rating thing but for the battle series or Primarch series? 😇 (I know you already recommanded Grimaldus/Armageddon)
The Lost and the Damned had an RPG section for 40k where you could play as a 'starchild' way more OP than any inquisitor ever. Literally a shard of the emperor. Sorry to have to call you on this one. My name is also Ian BTW have not played since 1st edition but I love the lore.
I almost feel like it’s a category error to consider it. Can a Cthulhu monster be “disabled” for instance? He’s just… beyond… such things. You’d need a different word, with different connotations, but which still tries to deal with the subject matter.
Yeah I felt a lot of "Worf effect" with Ravenor, he's continuously getting his ass kicked despite how powerful he is to prove how bad the bad guys(usual disclaimer about "bad guys" in 40k here)are
I didn't really enjoy the Ravenor trilogy, or should I say the first two books, I didn't try to read the third one. Maybe because I was hoping for more Eisenhorn-like stuff? Which is not a very good reason, I guess. But I had that feeling that it was action, action, action, not really leading anywhere, and with probably too many point of view characters, who sadly felt to me like second-grade X-Men, or maybe even A-Team. Maybe I read it at the wrong moment and with the wrong expectations and I should try again... Anyway, thank you as always.
I think it's great to support disability in this space, but I'm having my doubts as to how well either of you understood the series if you have such a negative view of its representation. For one thing, Nayl ponders the loss of his finger and even wonders if this is how it began for Eisenhorn; before he became nothing but augmetics. He passes it off like nothing, but it's really disingenuous to twist that into an example of the book somehow glossing over it. Not even getting into Ravenor's own troubles with his disability, the way it affects him, all that. All in all that was a bizarre conclusion and not even close to accurate to the text.
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As someone with cerebral palsy I feel that for the most part disability is represented very well in 40K. In Master of Mankind there is Dominion Zephon who is a Blood Angels captain-equivalent who lost an arm and a leg, has them replaced with bionics but the bionics don't mesh with his nerves properly. This leaves him unable to control his body the way he wants to with him having his natural reflexes for his flesh and blood limbs but his prosthetics 'betray' him by spasming and not having the same range of motion. This is exactly how I feel about my own condition because it is in essence the same thing. Half of his body is just not the same as the other half.
I feel the same for Ravenor when he projects from the chair. Having that freedom while he is outside but knowing that he'll have to return to an exceptionally limiting form at the end of it all is a familiar feeling. Not to get too personal but my diagnosis didn't come until my mid 20's despite having had an advocate who knew what she was talking about taking me to the doctors since I was a few months old for things that should have really been taken more seriously than they were. As such I got to experience my mobility degrading to the point where I couldn't walk much more than 50 metres/yards without both of legs essentially painfully locking up and making me look like I was walking without any joints. While I'm not in a wheelchair so I can't speak for that side of the community I definitely can relate to the feeling of having had something and lost it and if I had the chance to briefly regain it I'd jump (figuratively) at it.
Good question from Liam.
The Ravenor trilogy is my favorite Dan Abnett book series. It even tops Eisenhorn for me. I really enjoy how the crippled condition of Ravenor makes the supporting characters around him really much more important (as compared to Eisenhorn), and I very much enjoy the ensemble-style of story telling of Ravenor. Harlon Nayl, Kara Swole and Patience Keyes are three of my favorite WH40k characters. The vulnerability of Ravenor also makes him much more relatable than Eisenhorn. Finally, the story-arc of Carl Thonius is fascinating.
^^this right here.
Loved Eisenhorn novels but it's very much Gregors adventure with a supporting cast along for the ride whereas Ravenor through his disability is the leader of a team of very interesting very capable individuals in their own right and they're on the journey together.
@@Steven-qb7vn Indeed, very much Gregor's Adventure Time. That's why I love the Pariah/Bequin series so much as it features Gregor (and Ravenor for that matter!) as a side character! Really fun perspective.
One of my favourite details is on Flint the oldest buildings where made from the horns of mature creatures that they hunt that will never grow that big again because of the rate at which they farm them
There is a short story that is sort of a prequel to Ravenor in which Ravenor 'finds' Patience Kys (its very grimdark). I wonder if Ian read that if he would like her more... her 'character' is to some extent a 'character' that she is projecting to hide her humanity. There is more to Kys then the 'femme fatale badass assassin' exterior. I rather wished Abnett had developed her more into a Interrogator rather than just a warrior, I think she would have made an interesting inquisitor, and as an Interrogator she'd have been even more intimidating to Thonius.
Ian's description of "lucky space" makes me think of the bit in "Mote in God's Eye" where a couple characters are waxing philosophical, and one of them points out that although the Second Empire of Man claims to rule a massive portion of the galaxy, it isn't really true. What the Empire actually controls is a series of "bubbles" surrounding stars like raisins in a muffin - and then they use FTL to jump to the next bubble, never seeing or understanding the "bread" in between.
Yall gotta read The Magos. Has Patience's back story it's very simular to Bequin 2 and makes her brief convos with her really interesting. A good bridge between Eisenhorn and Ravenor. Also just a great book with awesome characters and stories that don't seem related untill the end.
I’d love to see Mira and the four gamers crew playing a 40K RPG with Ian as GM :)
That would be epic.
Got your wish!
@@scelonferdi well, almost 😝
@@HistoritorJimaldus Right, Mira was sick...
It almost happened, but Mira was sick so they had to play without her 😢
Dan Abnett run on Guardians of the Galaxy was amazing. Abnett is one of the top writers going today.
Brilliant Review. Thanks Ian and Mira.
I agree that the city in this book is perfectly describes post industrial, decline and hopelessness for many. The restrictions placed on Ravenor's powers are kind of put there just so there is a plot rather than Ravenor just solving everything.
I've been looking forward to this! First off, I like to see how far these book club videos have come. I think the discussion has a much better structure than with the Eisenhorn books, well done. Ravenor is an interesting book, I think the trilogy is more 'together' than the Eisenhorn ones, better paced for sure, and although none of the characters come even close to being as compelling as Gregor, the average quality of the ensemble is much better.
Ravenor himself especially is very interesting, he's like an edgy Stephen Hawking starring in a detective action story. It is very cool. I like how you want to like him, he gives every reason for you to like him, he never trespasses as deep into heresy as Gregor, but every once and a while the bitterness/creepiness that comes with being in this sorry state for decades comes in and keeps you on edge. Also, the irony of Gideon functioning like a mini pseudo-emperor is not lost on me. The villains are in my opinion also much better than in Eisenhorn, in those books, I feel like the actual events and characters of the story are just a backdrop to the arc of Gregor, here the story is much more pronounced, and it's a welcome change. It's not better or worse, but it gives the Ravenor trilogy a strong identity.
Regarding some of the questions posed, I really dislike the null-blockers and another plot device that is introduced in Ravenor Returned. Contained within the Abnett books they are fine, but they take out the wind of other 40k stories, and make you wonder "well why didn't they just use blockers?". But I digress.
I am looking forward to the next episode!
Thank you both so much for doing this series, it's got me back into reading black library novels especially the first couple of Horus Hersey books. What an absolute amazing episode on Ravenor!
A fun fact: Here in Brazil we have a famous city called Petropolis - but is far from a "futuristic" "dystopian" - it`s the city where the royal family (the empire lasted until 1889) lived and the heirs still receive dividends for the use of various properties. Congrats Mira and Ian - your book club videos are the best!
Personally I found the Ravenor books to be the best of them all! The closest thing to Cyberpunk in the 40K universe, cursed drugs, body augmentation aplenty and so many shades of William Gibson but with that Abnett flair!
If 40k cyberpunk is your thing, I definitely suggest giving some of the Warhammer Crime books a look if you haven't! Bloodlines by Chris Wraight and Flesh and Steel by Guy Haley are fun reads.
@@mikkomerilainen5609 literally haven’t read any of them which seems ridiculous in hindsight, thanks for the tips!
I love everything Dan has written but Ravenor is right at the top for me too
Kara Swole is by far my favorite character of the whole Eisenhorn/Ravenor/Parriah-book, followed by Harlon...and I think that he is way more complex as to be played by 'The Rock'. More Tom Hardy-type.
Anyway, Kara is somehow the most 'human' of them.
Oh, and I love Wystan: Most underrated :D
Mira and Ian are so likable it is crazy that they are not already a mainstream tv-show!
I think the disability representation issue in any sci-fi setting is always made much harder due to 'future technology magics' being able to nullify most disabilities. Realistically you're only likely to encounter a character with a disability if they were also in the lower strata of society, otherwise they would have the credits to be able to have augmetics, gene-splicing, or vat-grown replacements.
I remember in one of the Necromunda books there's an Escher ganger who loses an arm and it gets replaced with an augmetic by a rogue doc, but it's always causing her pain and getting infected. Maybe a good instance of representation would have her discard the arm and learn to manage with what she had, but she wasn't a main character and I don't recall what happened. Ravenor's body was so utterly broken that he is only able to function due to him being a mini-Emperor psychic encased in his own Golden Throne solely due to the unlimited resources of the Inquisition. But Black Library has a talented pool of writers so here's hoping.
I love to see the two of you run an RPG, could use the Dark Heresy setting but adapt the Traveller ruleset? Or there the new Rogue Trader crpg that's been announced recently, maybe do a playalong together when that comes out?
Always loved the Ravenor books. As a character, I have much more sympathy for him than Eisenhorn. Him being less xenophobic than most Imperials certainly helps
I don't know about the character. Sure especially early Eisenhorn has big OC-do-not-steal-energy, but with Ravenor's standoff-ish-ness and repeated questionable use of unquestioned authority... Ravenor just makes me feel icky in a way. So especially with the Magos and Bequin having Eisenhorn being forced to reckon with who he has been for the last few centuries I like Eisendad a lot more than weird (handsy) uncle Ravenor.
♥️
@@Error898789 You mean how he 'wares' his crew? Yeah, if so, gets real weird real quick if you think about it, eep
OMG. A new 40k Book Club with Mira! And its about Ravenor. Hell yeah.
IIRC there is a bit where Ravenor is reflecting on why he chose Carl as his Interogator; he pretty much says he didn't need a fighter (he had fighters; Nayl, Kara, Will and later Patientce) what he needed was an intellectual peer. Carl is someone learned and savy that Gideon can talk to and they can reason/work cases out between them.
Carl's technical ability and charm also fills a gap in Ravenor's team.
He also seems good to have on your team for trivia night at the bar
The things he knows!
I have to say i like how Frauka's creepiness was handled somewhat ambiguously at times. Like, is he really that creepy, or is that just how people feel around him, because he's a null? And if he is all that creepy is it because he is born like that, being a null, or because he just never learned how not be creepy because people always shunned him?
I just wanted to write that I am new to your channel and I’m truly enjoying your videos. I have been a fan of a few other WH lore TH-camrs and although they may be arguably more entertaining, you provide understandable information that it’s captivating.
I have been an on again, off again fan of GW and WH 40k but your videos make me want to pick a chapter and totally invest
Re: limiters: in these and the Bequins the concept of limiting blanks confuses. If the human default is visible to ESP (0) and psychers have ESP that can be limited (+1), blanks are effectively -1, in that they are the norm less visibility to ESP. So the limiter is adding -1 to -1, which does not equal 0. Calling it a mask would make more sense.
Well explained. Limiters have always bugged me, & I couldn't articulate why
Listened to this as the audiobook and the narrator was really superb.
Absolutely love Thonius, and for the exact reasons you discussed. You have an idea of what an inquisitorial agent is: grim, serious, authoritarian, intimidating. And Thonius is none of those things, BUT! He's still good at his job!
„The stuff you know.“ I like him even more in book 3.
Just finished the book last night. Didn't predict the Ministerials' double cross. I'm convinced that a big part of the reason is because I couldn't help but project Dedra Meero onto Madsen, which made me treat her like a hardliner and true believer. Wonder if anyone else who's read Ravenor post-Andor had a similar experience?
Oh yes! make sure Mira reads the Magos. It might be a side story but it is a really awesome one, Valentine Drusa is one of my favorite characters. If you got the chance, start with the short story The curiosity and The Gardens of Tycho before the Magos.Would love to hear your thoughts about them too.
Can we please have Mira summarise all the books going forward please? that was brilliant 😂😂
Yes please.
I loved the Ravenor books! Although the thing is, I loved the Eisenhorn books so much that I kept wanting the Ravenor books to be Eisenhorn books. :) The Pariah books are (imo) absolutely terrific and I've been waiting for the third Bequin book with baited breath. They might be my favorite of all. Thank you for these book club videos, I enjoy them very much!
I think I’ve said it before, but I would really like to see Mira play inquisitor. Especially, I’d like to see the 40K
Character she creates when given the incredible freedom that game gives you.
Ravenor very enjoyable, Inquisitor Gideon is badass! just a husk with immense psychic ability. One of Abnetts best
The thing I loved about the first book particularly (it happens less so in the subsequent novels) is the way it tells the story of the principle agent almost entirely through a cast of other characters. It's like character building by proxy, which I found to be a fascinating idea. Typing this before I've watched the video so probably I'm just going to have ended up repeating what they say.
Just watching this now as I'm working through your 40K Book Club videos. On the point of representation of disability in 40K I can't help but notice that the cover art for the ebook Ravenor omnibus doesn't feature Ravenor in his suspension chair, but rather features two other characters front and centre, which I think are Harlan Nayl and Patience Kys, with a projection of Ravenor stood behind them. Optics wise that says a lot really.
This book was a different experience for me as I read Eisenhorn Magos first. This was great as I was already introduced to Ravernor's new form, Carl and Patience. Having that introduction to them and some of their the fates hinted at in Magos made this really interesting for me!
19:34 That was basically my first thought when I saw the cover for the omnibus. I wonder if that's intentional.
34:15 Pretty sure there were drugged twist clowns getting horribly slaughtered in the Carnivora. Because that place is just messed up.
48:00 There's a bit like this in this book that has always stuck with me. Ravenor's gang tries to track down a suspect and they ask one of his relatives if she knows where he is, and she has two brothers who are stuck inside life support tanks after an industrial accident.
It's never outright stated, but I feel like the point of that scene is to compare/contrast their state with Ravenor's. He gets to have a hover chair, they are kept in these barely functioning, disgusting tanks, all because he is "useful" to the Imperium, while they are not.
Less about representation, more about how much the Imperium sucks, I suppose.
One thing that wasn't mentioned but has always bugged me about this book: why don't the bad guys just kill Ravenor and his crew, instead of merely locking them up and steering the ship into the sun? That's classic villain stupidity right there. Kinda drags the whole thing down.
Anyway, looking forward to _Ravenor Returned_
Though it would make sense to read the short story _Thorn Wishes Talon_ first. Never understood why that wasn't just part of the book.
Love the Ravenor ensemble, the one thing I couldn't resist in my long-running Wrath and Glory tabletop campaign was some generational links to some of this crew
Also I would absolutely love to see Ian run a Wrath and Glory game for Mira and friends sometime
I cannot wait for Mira and Ian playing Inquisitor haha! Also, love to see more of these book chats :)
Karl is my favoured character in the book foppish and funny, brilliant character, very "British"
Mira is such a joy to see. Interestingly Mira is Spanish for look or see. Anyway, a lovely person, unlike ian which is just Spanish for ian.
Mira is lovely ❤
The imperative instruction to "look" no less 😁
There's a disabled character in Dan Abnett's Double Eagle that is seen as not being capable and strong enough, who proves he can actually do more than most and proves everyone wrong for dismissing him.
Regarding representation of disability, I would be interested to hear your (and others!) take on Double Eagle, where a former PDF fighter pilot who has lost a thumb and can't fly anymore.
He starts the book struggling to work as a member of aircraft ground crew, but then later is grabbed by an imperial guard airborne commander and given back his wings, and the squadron's technicians modify his fighter to accept voice input for the weapons system, so he doesn't have to use his missing thumb.
beautiful video, thanks.
i don´t think that the 40K Universe is a really good environment for representation of most disabilities, because of the abundance of augmentations. they may be sometimes bad or cheap, but they work sufficient enough, sometimes it´s even an upgrade.
ears, eyes, limbs: the old, weak flesh can be upgraded.
one situation in gaunts ghost´s (which i would not consider Mira´s cup of tea, typical frontlinestories): one of the main characters looses its eyes (in the later books) and in on of the stories he now has the ability to drive in the dark like it´s daytime.
though at the end of the book where this happens he receives a very truly sad message and has to admit that his new eyes can´t even cry although he does want to.
and there is the ex-sniper who does loose his larynx i think (?) and after he get´s the augmentation can´t shoot good enough anymore so he is degraded to normal soldier.
well, nevermind.
there are two universes where the answer would be easy and clear for me if i want to life in it: Star Trek (of course! forever) and Warhammer 40K (of course not! not even for a second).
16:00 old sub’s fave: “meat is hung, people are Hanged”. A priest who “got hung” risks a double entendre, ne that would substantially detract from their apparent holiness.
Awesome stuff guys, you provide a lot of inspiration for my own channell now to be honest and I enjoy every video you put out ❤
I'd really love listening to this conversation as a podcast. Maybe one day. 🤷🏼♂️
Either way, great conversation!
Love these videos always look forward to them getting released. 👍
I little bit late to leave a comment. But want to say thank you Ian and Mira! I've just started to read this ""ninelogy" this year. I'm one of those readers who likes to discuss books. Frankly none of my friends are interesed in w40k books, and my father got whole Expanse series on the list. But I've got my reading journals and you guys!
Woop woop what a great Tuesday treat! 😊
Mira needs to do all the plot summaries :)
Speaking of Dark Heresy, have you read the novels that came out with that? Scourge the Heretic and Innocence Proves Nothing. Amazing books that you and Mira would love. Unfortunately, the third book never was released because Dark Heresy went defunct, or something like that, so the books stop in the middle of the story, but still some amazing gumshoe work. It is the acolytes of the inquisitor running around and doing stuff. Great stories!
Love the book reviews! Keep em coming 🤌
"I need a look, just one little look" What are the 'flects' a Xenos drug a chaos artefact or something else?
Spoiler!!! Flects are pieces of glass/mirror that have been immersed in the warp and have absorded dark energies and when viewed they have a hallucinogenic effect.
It’s a chaos infused drug. Materials that are mixed with the drug, glass I think, comes from a section of space that was cut off for centuries and everything was basically infused by the warp and they add that to the drug was makes it very addictive
@@johnbattyll6874 Yeah, I really liked this book and 'Returned' and 'Rogue' I like the mystery around the drug and the dealers through out the story!
Most of these advanced sci fi settings are good for portraying physical disabilities since they can clone limbs, organs or just have bionics. You could do it of course but its going to take more time to work it out and make it interesting
Do you guys take turn reading the same book or buy duplicates?
Just a thought you could both listen to the audio books, Toby Longworth is a top notch narrator.
Mira reads the paper book, i tend to read the ebook. Neither of us enjoy audio books. Personally, I can't listen to them without immediately tuning out and forgetting anything the droning voice has said for the last half hour!
@@ArbitorIan to each their own, but Longworth absolutely does not drone. He's an established character actor and definitely "gets" 40k and the setting
umm aktually its not a 9-tology because theres 10 books counting the Magos Eisenhorn novel
Ravenor's Angels
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the ravenor books were meant to flog the dark heresy RPGs. I know there were actually DH books ,(which weren't nearly as good), but I always thought ravenors characters was like a d&d party. One of the things DH emphasized was that the inquisitor was supposed to be used as a plot device more than an NPC, so ravenors being in the background kinda makes sense in that context. This is one of the first 40k novels I read, mostly because it was an adventure story. I read the anthologies a lot, but didn't know if I could get through a full novel of WAR, grimdark WAR, so this was a great intro. Zeph looked like Marvel's bishop in my head, wystan looks like Joey Ramone, preest was Janeway, nayl was vin Diesel with a goatee. As for, Patience kys, c'mon, she isn't a Mary Sue, she has a tragic back story!!
I thought that too, but Dark Heresy wasn't released until four years after Ravenor!
@@ArbitorIan Well, GW does sometimes take forever between conception and release... Either way thanks so much for the awesome content
"Zeph has dark vision" You can tell Mira is a D&D player.
I finished Eisenhorn 1-3 and Ravenor 1-3 last week.
What should I do now? What else Inquisitor based is out there?
The Magos and then the Bequin series (Pariah/Penitent) come next in the timeline
@@ArbitorIan cheers, I will check it out
Late comment, but anyway: if you want more of the "Investigation" style 40k books you could check out the Shira Calpurnia trilogy. Not inquisitor, but Adeptus Arbites so still that "detective" feeling.
They beat off the bad gus!
Yo. Come on. Beat off the bad guys?
How is this comment dated from 2 weeks ago?
Early Patreon viewing?
Yup. Probably going to rewatch too.
This one’s missing from the book club playlist btw :)
Do a video on your white dwarf editions hanging in the background! It’s an important part of the hobby - see my comment on your last video
The set up of Ravenor makes me think of Jeffrey Deaver's Lincoln Rhyme, the first which was adapted into a Denzel Washington and Angelina Jolie movie. Come to think of it, I think the late 90's and early aughts had a ton of profiling/intellectual investigators in the media over here in the US.
For some reason I always imagined Harlon Nayl as Ron Perlman
Please do Horus Rising! I'd love to hear Mira's thoughts on it.
Love those videos! I also loved your ranking of best horus heresy, do you plan on doing such a rating thing but for the battle series or Primarch series? 😇 (I know you already recommanded Grimaldus/Armageddon)
The Lost and the Damned had an RPG section for 40k where you could play as a 'starchild' way more OP than any inquisitor ever. Literally a shard of the emperor. Sorry to have to call you on this one. My name is also Ian BTW have not played since 1st edition but I love the lore.
Disability-wise, would the state of the Emperor’s body in 40m count as being disabled?
In the greater scheme of things, and disregarding the fact that he's a god whose psychic powers are almost unlimited, yes.
I almost feel like it’s a category error to consider it. Can a Cthulhu monster be “disabled” for instance? He’s just… beyond… such things. You’d need a different word, with different connotations, but which still tries to deal with the subject matter.
you could do an awsome book about like a navigator who has severial disability but is awsome at navagting.
Yay Mira!
Yeah I felt a lot of "Worf effect" with Ravenor, he's continuously getting his ass kicked despite how powerful he is to prove how bad the bad guys(usual disclaimer about "bad guys" in 40k here)are
The second bequin book also shows us why he doesn't use his powers at his max.
Found Ravenor hard to read through than Eisenhorn series but still a good read.
I didn't really enjoy the Ravenor trilogy, or should I say the first two books, I didn't try to read the third one. Maybe because I was hoping for more Eisenhorn-like stuff? Which is not a very good reason, I guess. But I had that feeling that it was action, action, action, not really leading anywhere, and with probably too many point of view characters, who sadly felt to me like second-grade X-Men, or maybe even A-Team. Maybe I read it at the wrong moment and with the wrong expectations and I should try again... Anyway, thank you as always.
Holy crap I got here early!
Probably in the minority, but I liked the Dark Heresy system. >.>
She makes me smile. I like her
And I mean that as least creepily as possible. Genuinely help someone who every day is a battle it feels.
Cheers
Is your shirt proclaiming your allegiance to Rules As Written?
Woooot!!!!
: D
telekenenis
Everytime i see Mira the first thought is how beautyful she is :)
CREEP
I think it's great to support disability in this space, but I'm having my doubts as to how well either of you understood the series if you have such a negative view of its representation. For one thing, Nayl ponders the loss of his finger and even wonders if this is how it began for Eisenhorn; before he became nothing but augmetics. He passes it off like nothing, but it's really disingenuous to twist that into an example of the book somehow glossing over it. Not even getting into Ravenor's own troubles with his disability, the way it affects him, all that. All in all that was a bizarre conclusion and not even close to accurate to the text.
No Mira, 40k is not capitalistic.
Wheelchair mages in RPGs are dumb. Like cast a spell on your spine, come on.