Elliott 10M Shaper Gear Cutting Fixture Part 5
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this final part of the series on the gear cutting attachment I cut two helical gears, one in bronze and one in steel. The finished gears are then mounted in the mill to measure the ideal axis spacing for smooth engagement.
The measurement technique was devised by Tom's Rabbit Hole: / @thomasstover6272 - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Have never would have imagined you could use a shaper to cut a helical gear!
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for watching!
Gday Robert, I’ve not long come across your channel and I’m really enjoying it, I’ve been following Tom’s channel for a good while now and the work his done to build his machine is amazing, I wish I had paid more attention in maths class years ago to be able to do this myself, you’re setup is a work of art mate, brilliant job, cheers
Hi Matty, thanks for watching. Glad you enjoyed it. I knew making videos was hard work, but doing it week in, week out, I salute guys like you that keep us entertained. I'm struggling to keep this up!
It is normal human behaviour to make mistakes and it is refreshing to see you show the errors and how to fix the problem. Nice work!
Thank you! Yep, none of us are perfect😁
The thing I like most about social media is the craftsmanship we are able to witness from all around the world.
I’ve often wondered what it took to machine helical cut gears like this. Now I’ve got an idea.
What a wonderful demonstration displayed here.
I’ll be certain to go back and watch the previous steps.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. Even the mistakes. I think the lessons learned by mistakes are often the most teachable moments and we should not be afraid of them what so ever.
Thank you for watching. I'm new to doing videos and I thought it might be amusing to include what really went on!
Hey up mate I'm new as well and have always wondered how these were made, your video is fascinating I was mesmerized and feel lucky to of found your channel, there's a fella called Dave Richard's with old steam powered machine shop you reminded me of him, very relaxing and definitely worth looking at but I'd be surprised if you didn't know already, thanks again jon
I have never seen this technique before! Thank you for sharing.
G'day Robert. This is my first visit to your channel. This video was very stimulating and so well presented! I'm keen to go to the first of this series and see what you've done. You deserve to get up the subscribers tree very quickly.
Thank you for watching and subscribing! So far the popularity of this channel has surprised me. I'm trying to show things I haven't seen on other channels... for as long as I can come up with the ideas.
@@ThePottingShedWorkshop This was definitely something I haven't seen on other channels. A tool and cutter grinder series would be great. As would a series on a small horizontal borer like the Kearns S model.
@@rodbennett4790 Thanks for watching! There are 2 videos up on sharpening endmills on the Union TC grinder already. I'll add more as I go.
Can't help you with the borer I'm afraid as I don't have one and am struggling for room as it is!
Congratulations, I know what it's like to make this type of designs, it involves a lot of work, having an open mind, a lot of trial and error until you achieve the goal. Thank you for sharing all your research, you have been very generous with all of us who follow your channel.
Felicitaciones, yo se que es hacer este tipo de diseños, conlleva muchisimo trabajo, tener una mente abierta, mucho ensayo y error hasta lograr el objetivo. Gracias por compartir toda su investigacion ha sido muy generoso con todos los que seguimos su canal.
Thank you for watching!
Nice job Robert, very well explained without too much diving into gear terminology which I myself find daunting.
Thanks for watching. Glad I got the balance right between too much detail and too over-simplified!
This series has helped me understand some of the aspects of how this attachment works. Cutting helix gear teeth still looks like some kind of sorcery, in spite of watching it done both ways (mill and shaper). I guess I'll have to view it several times, in person, to get my head around it. Same with why the rotation drive must be changed according to changes in pitch diameter.
Knowing/understanding how something works is vital in being able to operate it for best results and longevity, after all ...
Seems like sorcery, but its not. My first time cutting a helical was for a replacement gear for the table drive for my surface grinder. The handle is at 30deg to the table travel and the gear engages with a rack on the table. That was the inspiration for cutting helicals on a shaper, the rack tooth (shaper cutting tool) engaging with the gear. I think part 2 in the series goes in to the details. Same principle, just turned at an angle. Just imagine the gear you're cutting rolling along a rack.
Beautiful work, Robert! I believe I recognize the iterative process required to make a good helical gear! Thanks for the mention! By the way, your milling machine is a thing of beauty…cheers!
🤣That's why I posted my comment yesterday! At least you only showed one cockup!
Glad you like the mill. Good old (poss older than me!) British iron. Not big, but so flexible. Shame its not a universal, but it fits my 8 x 15ft workshop. A Bridgeport wouldn't.
@@ThePottingShedWorkshop One screwup per video is my self-imposed limit…otherwise the videos would be hours long! 😁
@@thomasstover6272 🤣
Awesome engineering!! very well done.
Thank you!
absolutely blew me away with this!! love the gear set up on the dividing head, i have a couple of dividing heads but not the balls to use them as you do . cheers sir.😊
You're welcome. Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for your YT series on gear cutting on the shaper; outstanding original work and workmanship!
I just sold my little shaper on which I wanted to try the wire travel method of gear shaping but as they say life got in the way.
Your set-up for helical gear shaping is really interesting.
The next increment in your development work might be shaping of angle gears, right angle and others.
Gear shapers for such work are shown here on YT, and they typically have two shaper rams working in sequence, but it may be doable with one ram.
For quiet running gears these may be lapped together with a non-embedding lapping compound meant for soft metals.
All in all a most enjoyable series; thanks again and greetings from Ontario Canada.
Thank you for watching. I've been mulling over how I might do bevel gears for a while but so far I've come to the conclusion that it won't work. I'm still waiting for the flash of inspiration!
@@ThePottingShedWorkshop My endeavours of gear cutting have been very conventional. I made a so-called parallel hob for 32 DP 20 deg PA and made a bunch of gears for Maudslay's reversing gear. You can see a steam engine on my channel that employs this gear train.
After that an ancient -1953- German gear hobbing machine followed me home, complete with a box of hobbs:-))
As to gear shaping of bevel gears, perhaps it would help to study the videos here on YT that show these machines in use.
These machines typically have two rams cutting alternately, with the blank rotating under the cutters just like you do on your shaper.
Good luck with your study on this topic.
Greetings from Ontario Canada.
buenas noches soy de Perú primera ves que veo tu videos, solo puedo decir impresionante. amigo. me das muchas ideas. muchas gracias y has más videos, excelente tu trabajo. saludos,😀
Thank you for watching!
I just came across this video and find it just outstanding. What a great video!
Excellent explanation of the setups, clear filming and good editing. You are a great teacher.
And, last but not least, I respect that you also honestly show your mishaps.
Subscribed. And I will certainly watch more of your videos.
Thank you very much. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I think I talk too much, it makes editing a bit more difficult!
Very interesting, thank you for taking the time to share it with the world.
Thanks for watching. Never having done "proper" videos before, it's taken me 2 years to take the plunge and describe it on camera. The hardest bit turned out to be remembering how it all went together!
Fun stuff. This is why a shaper is still a very useful machine.
Its nice to be able to use it for something other than internal keyways! My workshop is fairly small ( 15 x 9ft ) so every machine has to justify the space it takes up.
Nicely done. I'm glad I found this channel. Looking forward to new content. New sub. Cheers.
Thanks very much. New video will be out Tuesday. Something different this time.
I've recentley come across this build series and I'm enthralled, I've cut spur gears before but following the toolpath on your helical attatchment was an eye opener!
Wonderfull workmanship on your build and now I'm browsing shapers on ebay, just so you know I'm blaming you if I arrive home with more grey heavy metal,,,
Please continue to show us your skills.
Thank you! I'll try and make videos whilst I've got the time and have something slightly different to show. Good luck with buying a shaper.😁
bonjour de FRANCE
vous etes un super champion!!!!!!!!!! Félicitations
Merci beaucoup!
Fantastic work! You essentially created a Maag gear shaper, but very, very creatively and for a tiny fraction of the cost and size.
Thank you very much!
Very interesting. Your work is master level
Thank you!
Thank you very much for the extremely informative and exciting explanation about the producing of gears one the shaping machine. Respekt vor this achievement!👍
Thanks for watching. After 5 videos on this, I guess I'd better move on to another topic!
I have to say that this was absolutely brilliant. I have a dividing head with banjos & gears etc and absolutely no idea how to set it up for helical gear cutting.
So this was really fascinating.
I would love to have seen how you worked out what banjo goes where and with what gears to end up with the rotation required.
I realise it’s highly complicated z& probably would go over most viewers heads and probably make the video way to long.
But it would be lovely to have a reference to know where to start.
I have no need yet to cut helical gears, but I’m guessing that day will come eventually, so it would be handy to know where to look to figure it all out.
Can’t thank you enough for this video. 👍👍👍🇦🇺
I covered the maths in part 2 of this series. There's no complicated maths involved. The difficulty of working out the gear ratios is handled by a spreadsheet which, given a list of the gears available, works out every possible combination and what ratio they produce. Its then a simple matter of picking out the closest ratio to the desired value.
AWESOME .... thank you for sharing
You're welcome. Thank you for watching!
Great job
Thank you. Glad you liked it.
Well done once again. Very inspiring setup, it's like hobbing with one tooth. I've made 2 bronze helical gears on my mill this last weekend so I thought about your setup. I've used lapping compound to smooth out the run a bit but I think the shaper lives a nicer finish though.
Thanks for this video
Thanks for watching! The gears aren't perfect, but they're good enough for most hobbyists.
I agree with my mate Matty, Robert. Unfortunately I didn't even have a maths class that covered fractions at all. I was in the top class all the way through my secondary school. But we in 1965 at the age of eleven, were the first ever class in the school to do what was called "Modern Maths" and to be honest it was a complete waste of everyone's time( teachers included I think) with things like matrices and topology. I've never had to use them again since I was 16, and I'm 70 now! How I wish I had at least a grounding in fractions and cancelling out and the like as you did in one of the earlier videos of this series Robert. However as a practical person who has used his hands to earn a living most of his life( I did have ten years working in a school workshop situation with some teaching of woodwork ( I know THOSE Fractions lol) and eventually metalwork as well and technical drawing which I passed at 'O' Level. In later years I was given a lathe/milling combination machine and a whole raft of tooling from a relative of my wife's,who's husband had died some ten years previously and it had sat in the shed unused and unloved for all that time. So I set myself up a tiny machine shop in a garden shed which measures 8 feet by 5 and that's the outside dimensions with between 4"&6" of insulation within the walls. lol At the school we had a brand new unused Viceroy I think 7" shaper and in the ten years I was there I was the only one to actually use it. The head of department was a graduate of the institute of Mechanical Engineers, but he was afraid of the shaper he told me lol I would dearly love a small shaper and I would even extend my shed for one! Your set up Robert looks really well thought out for your limited floor print. Have you done a " shop tour" video? I would certainly like to see it all. If not I will just have to carry on binge watching your channel's content.i subbed after watching your first shaper gear cutting video.
Thanks for subscribing! Your workshop makes mine look big. Mine's an absolute mess at the mo. The filming hides the fact that there is no room to move about.
I guess applied maths was my thing. I was an electronic design engineer for nearly 40 years. I was always into mechanical things though, I worked in a bicycle repair shop in my youth, did a summer working for a cycle frame builder and started work when we used to get proper training, including machine shop time.
My working career is one reason why I avoid CNC. I spent far too long working on a computer at work!
Here's a tip; get your drive shaft UJs in phase, you're multiplying up the errorof being out of phase with the two different angles, yokes should be inline, not 90 degrees out.
Oh, I agree wholeheartedly! For the RH helix, I hadn't cut a gear with that big a helix angle and I was having to sort things out on the fly, so the cardan joints weren't correctly phased. For the LH helix, I sorted it out so they should have been.
@@ThePottingShedWorkshop i noticed you'd got your act together in the second set up. Top job !
Hello,
I’m impressed by your ingenuity, I’ve seen several attempts to do exactly this on a shaper - but yours is the most interesting one.
I’ve subscribed to your channel to not miss a single video.
I’ve one question: I own a Spanish milling machine (it weighs 4 metric tons) and I’m looking for a smaller machine, because I’m partially impaired since
a year and my body power is limited.
I now want to ask you about your milling machine, what manufacturer and what type it is ?
Thanks in advance, Thomas
Hi Thomas, thanks for watching and subscribing.
My milling machine is an Elliott model 00. It's probably as old as I am. They appear occasionally for sale, usually needing some work and often missing critical parts that have either been forgotten or have been sold off as the accessories make a lot of money relative to the cost of a whole machine. It is extremely flexible and can achieve a lot for its size, but is not the most rigid. It fits my workshop very well though.
Gotta get yourself a noise filter for that high frequency
Very cool though, thank you for sharing
This content is being made with what I have to hand, sorry. Filmed on my phone, no remote mic, freebie editing software.
For all that, I hope the quality wasn't so bad that it would put you off watching. Thanks for commenting.
Nice work.
Thanks for sharing. 👍
I just subscribed to your channel.
Thanks very much! Glad you liked it.
Perfect.
Parabéns!!!!!
Thank you! I don't think they're perfect. Good enough, but not perfect😁
Very nicely done.
Further proof of the adage that
You can make anything on a shaper,
Except money…
Amen to that! 2 hours to cut one of those helicals!
@@ThePottingShedWorkshopthank you I was wondering how much time it took
Nice video Robert, very informative, and very nice work on the gear cutting and the machinery you have made to produce them. Is you mill a Elliott omnimil 00 ?
Yup, thats the mill. Just the right size for my workshop (about 9 x 15ft), very flexible. If only it were a true universal, but you can't have everything.
I think I need to find a small dividing head that fits my little shaper so I can give this a go myself. Shaping gears is fun.
The problem is finding a small dividing head with a universal shaft. They all seem to be big!
Fun, hmm? I guess I'm someone who doesn't mind operating the shaper for 2 hours just to produce one little gear!
super cool .. shaper can do it 😃😃😃😃😃
Nice job again! Hows about a nice span measurement? Over pins would be nice too....can't wait for your next video!
Thanks. Pins are easy for spur gears, but I'm not sure its so easy for helicals. Certainly beyond my maths to work it out from first principles. The axle spacing measurement technique of Tom's Rabbit Hole at least is easy to relate to an absolute measurement.
@@ThePottingShedWorkshopI can run the numbers for you, what's the HA PA an Z
It seems that the teeth's "faces" would be slightly faceted because of the stepping nature of the feed. Do you know of any post-cutting procedure that may refine the surface quality, possibly running the gears in together with a lapping compound or something similar, to "polish" the teeth?
If you look closely enough at any machining cutting operation the surface will have ridges. Its just a question of making the ridges small enough and close enough together. Firstly reducing the feed per stroke on the shaper would smooth things out. You could run the gears with some sort of abrasive compound to wear them in together, but they run perfectly well for my purposes without.
Great work! But I want to see the mating gear for your 9 1/2 tooth gear....
🤣
I just found your site. Very good videos. Two questions. 1). Your cutter has straight sides. Are you cutting a “generated “ tooth or involute tooth? 2). Helical gears are curved. Your solution appears to cut a straight path tooth. Am I missing something here?
Thanks for commenting. Yes, the cutter has straight sides, but a rack form tool will generate a true involute. A gear hob has straight sides too.
A helix is a straight line wrapped around a cylinder with constant pitch. The shape cut by the jig is a true helix. The tooth profile is a standard involute in a direction normal to the teeth, not parallel with the gear axis.
Your rig is a bit confusing so sorry about the questions.
A hob or fellows shaper cutter has straight sides. In the case of the fellows. The blank and cutter are rotated into each other. The cut begins shallow and progresses until the cutter and blank are true tangent which is max depth. Then the depth of cut backs out on the back side of the tooth.
The profile tracks a math function called an involute. The involute of a straight line is a straight sided tooth as in a rack.
The diameter of the blank determines the involute shape of the tooth.The cutter has no effect.
Gear hobbers work in a similar way and the teeth are straight.
Look up the Eureka cutter attachment. It has lots of info on cutting gears.
@@devmeistersuperprecision4155 The operation of this attachment is fundamentally the same as a hobber, except that the cutting tool reciprocates rather than rotates. The blank rotates as the table moves sideways as if it were rolling along an imaginary stationary rack mounted above the blank, rather than the "rack" formed by the rotating hob teeth moving on a hobbing machine. One tooth of this imaginary rack is the cutting tool and has the same shape in cross section at the cutting face as a single tooth on a hob. Parts 1 and 2 of this series of videos explain the workings in detail, including the maths to get the gear train ratio to cut the correct profile.
Inam wondering, what if instead of one tooth there would be three or five - esečntially mimicing the shaper gear mesh of infinite diameter. Would that not be quicker to shape involute gears in less time?
I had to think about this one to give a reasoned answer. In principle, yes. For, say, 5 cutting teeth, you could cut 5 teeth of the gear per pass, assuming there were enough travel on the shaper table and that there were enough rigidity in the setup to cope with the increased tool contact with the workpiece. The big downside, and it is a major hurdle, is that you now need to create a cutting tool in the form of a rack with the teeth spaced exactly the right distance apart rather than a single easy to grind trapezoidal shape. That puts the tool in the same category as gear hobs or gear shaper cutters, easy enough to make in a suitably equipped factory but beyond the capability of a home workshop.
Good thought though. Thanks for commenting!
19:08 if thats not complex enough. What is?
I sure hope that effort is worth the result. I don't think I'd ever put myself through that much for gear making. I'd find another way. But if you love it. You go for it.
It's come in very useful for making non standard gears. I made a pair of gears for the backgears in a friend's lathe - the original helicals had been damaged, presumably from chuck removal, and this was before I could cut helicals. So to get the right spacing I made some MOD 2.1... gears. I could have bought a pair of MOD 2 cutters (74 and 22 teeth) and fudged it, but this jig made a proper job of it.
@ThePottingShedWorkshop well, sir. I certainly applaud your work. I'm not exactly stupid, but I sure don't think I could have succeeded in coming up with that setup. It's very nicely done. And I never once thought you could cut helical on a shaper.
Why does a shaper need helical gears cut on it?
Because it can!
What are your alternatives if you need a pair of helical gears? Buy stock gears, hob them assuming you have a hobbing machine and suitable hob, or mill them with an involute cutter. Or, grind a cheap piece of hss to the right shape and cut them on a shaper for 10% of the cost of the next cheapest method!
This is suprising fast
Not when you're stood there for 2 hours making one gear!😆. Thanks for watching.
@@ThePottingShedWorkshop to be fair if i do this on a 4 acis cnc macine for the first time i expect it migt take longer
That is quiet the puzzle doing this on a tiny shaper. 🤔
Yes, a smaller dividing head would make things easier. I haven't seen a smaller div head with a differential shaft though.
В копилку
If you're referring to the 1k subs making this channel monetisable (is that a word?😁) you're wide of the mark there. I'm not in this for money, so won't be applying for it. This is more about spreading knowledge.
Not everyone's on the make!
@@ThePottingShedWorkshop Good afternoon. My expression (В копилку) means to the piggy bank of knowledge
@@ThePottingShedWorkshop Can I contact you by your email?
@@worldwelding9764 In that case, I misinterpreted your comment, so I apologise. Thanks for putting me right.
9.5 tooth gear 😂
You would not want to be interrupted doing that job..
Yes, quite unintentional. But after a while counting turns, you lose focus and... 😳
Not a helical gear, that's some weird hyperbolic thing with teeth on it.
🤣
Pretty sure this is illegal.
😂