Can you forge weld on a faceplate to the harbor freight anvil? th-cam.com/video/sLzq8WShJXM/w-d-xo.html This is the latest video in this series... You don't want to miss it!
Harbor freight does have some good tools and other items, but they have some real klinkers in there too. The anvils are klinkers. But there is something you can do to them. Get a sturdy rope and tie it through the Hardy hole. Row out into the nearest body of salt water until it is far enough to begin getting less polluted. 3/4 mile should do. Next, hang the anvil over the side with the rope. Then, cut the rope, row back to shore, and feel the burn from the workout. Finally, go invest in a decent anvil.
@@jasondavis3244 Here is the deal, it was all just horse shit anyway. people who work metal know that if you try to water harden a dirty cast not to mention partial water quench. The whole thing was retarded, then all this dont do this at home shit. who cares about the scale. and seriously anyone watching this already knows how to do this anyway. If they really wanter to do a water quench then antifreeze should have been in the water. This was stupid
Trying to turn an HF ASO into a useful anvil by any means reminds me of the famous Robert Heinlein line: "Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."
You might be able to melt it down 2 or 3 of them, and cast them directly over a preheated and fluxed rectangular plate of 4140 or 5160 which can be hardened after the fact to give you a simple knife making anvil with a hard face and plenty of mass(assuming the face actually sticks).
I watch a lot of these types of videos on TH-cam, and I'm very happy to see you guys working as safely as possible. Full leathers, gloves, safety glasses at all times, face shield for extra protection... you're the real deal. Thank you for being a good example.
Considering Harbor Fright's track record with quality control, it's probably going to either crack or shatter on quenching, but if you luck and grab the golden ticket one, you'll have a pretty decent entry level anvil that isn't just an ASO. I've bought a screw driver where the point chipped turning a stuck screw, took it back and swapped it out and now i use that thing for prying staples and such. Harbor Freight is just a Blue Collar Casino.
I watch Project Farm, The Harbor Freight car battery jump box, couldn't jump a Ford 4 Cyl Ranger. The Harbor Freight zip-ties, the best. I got an open box small shop vac for about $20, amazing for small, tight area jobs, use the hell out of it. picks up screws and nails Your comment, on track. I have engine hoists and stands. about 3 floor jacks, couple ATV jacks and jack stands, never had an issue. The ATV lifts I use all the time on our Harley's and other motorcycles. One of the floor jacks I use on my F350. I have busted some of their hand tools, but I am fine with it. Need to modify a hand tool, cheap is the way to go. I have a lot of old made in USA Craftsman, not going to grind an open end wrench to fit in a small spot I'll most likely use once. This is where Harbor Freight shines. Sometimes cheap tools are priceless.
@@deathsicon unfortunately Craftsman is not the same anymore. Most of the Craftsman is have is from 80's early 90's. Now I buy other brands that have lifetime warranties. I got cheap if it something I will only use a few times. I went cheaper on the 72 Torx I may use 2 or 3 more times on my Harleys luckily over the years I have anywhere from 3 to 5 of everything.
I have to say. My first anvil was a harbor freight. And honestly it lasted longer than my knowledge surpassed it. The first smiths bashed against a rock or mild steel anvil. Buy what you can, heat it up with what you can an whack it
Ah, but remember, one of Adam's sons was the originator of metalworking. That means he was probably taught by God Himself, and it's likely there was no "bronze age." The Bible mentions steel and iron long before secular "scientists" believe it existed.
It looked to me like the failure originated at the hardy hole. The sharp 90 degree corners are stress risers and cause brittle fracture during heat treatment. You may have had some grain growth, but I would be willing to bet that it would have survived if you had radiused or chamfered those square edges before taking it up to temp. Neat video, thanks.
I honestly wondered about this. Since they use "ductile iron," (not cast iron, which is actually VERY high carbon) which actually has a decent graphite content, it actually stood to reason that it would be hardenable on some level.
@@mikehancho3500 Not just those, also decarburization (decarb) - a layer where the inverse of case hardening has happened - air has leached out the carbon. Usually quite thin but some steels and long soak times can cause deeper layers.
Also with hardening metals most metals need to be tempered back as they would be to brittle and shatter if struck or dropped from a distance . It kinda makes me think the casting got hard but because its cast it is easy to break when hard so that's why they leave them soft anvils , my question would be can you weld a solid high carbon steel to the anvil and harden the piece of high carbon steel ?
Fantastic work man! My harbor freight anvil is still a good part of my shop, use it when I don’t want to damage my good one haha. Keep doing an amazing job! Happy holidays!
Exactly what cheap tools are for. Can modify, and use them in a pinch as they were not intended to be used. Break it, who cares? break that old Craftsman (When they were good) or Snap-On, you cry.
That was interesting for sure. I have a theory about the improved rebound; could it be that having it upside down in the forge melted the Bondo inside the anvil and caused it to settle against the face, thereby increasing the rebound without actually improving the anvil itself?
Thanks for sharing! Makes sense: More hard makes more brittle. Cast iron is already brittle, but soft. Thanks! It is better for tools to have a little less hardness in exchange for decreasing the chance of easier and more dangerous failure. Great live stream tonight, by the way.
I am building my own anvil out of I beam and a 1" thick block of 4140 for the striking face. The 4140 should harden up to about 52 Rockwell. I was wondering how to heat the thing up, but had not considered using a coal forge to heat just the 4140 part. I was planning on building a furnace around the thing! Very helpful.
i wasn't surprised by this at all, especially the hardy hole popping off like that, its cast so any amount of hardening will absolutely destroy the entegrity of the crystal structure, forged steel has a much tighter and consolidated structure and so when you harden it, it essentially interlaces the crystals almost like a rope interlaces threads to make a stronger item. Cast iron is like taking those threads and hanging something from them untwisted.
First, cast does not mean cast iron. Second, forging does not consolidate material or "intertwine" the grain. Third, rope is not stronger because it is twisted. Iron is a crystal. It does not have long or stringy grains, it is more akin to sandstone or quartzite (metamorphic sandstone where to silicate grains grow together from being exposed to high heat). Casting has the potential to create voids or porosity from the process failing or being done improperly, but heat treatment itself can do far more to refine and homogenize the grain structure than "forging" can. Besides, what does it really mean to have a forged anvil? How did they create the billet in the first place? Are the feet, horn, heel, and face all welded onto the waist? Is it arc welded or forge welded? Are those perfect welds, or are they just as susseptible to failure as a cast anvil? A good anvil is a good piece of iron made well, regardless of the method used in it's construction.
@@DragonHide94 ok first, I said Cast, not Cast IRON, I understand the difference, still like you said, hardening cast at all destroys any strength the metal had because of all the voids and the lack of consolidation of the grain of the crystals, you can see it when the hardy breaks off how large the crystal grain is the difference between cast and forged metal is the grain structure of the metal, forging tightens that structure and you get much more grains in a smaller area I used rope as an example because and I quote "The twist of the strands in a twisted or braided rope serves not only to keep a rope together, but enables the rope to more evenly distribute tension among the individual strands. Without any twist in the rope, the shortest strand(s) would always be supporting a much higher proportion of the total load." but i guess i should have used gems as an example, quartz is loose and not consolidated well, while diamond from heat and pressure is far harder. there's a difference here between hardness and strength though, the harder the steel the more brittle it becomes, the stronger the steel the more easily it bends. the best anvils are forged because you tighten up the grain structure, remove any possible voids in the steel and then can heat treat it to harden, cast may be able to be hardened but will not be as strong as forged steel, there's a reason steel swords are never made from castings.
@@thejackofalldans786 I have neither the time, not the crayons to explain why everything you just said is wrong (except the rope because it was a quote from elsewhere).
I welded a steel plate (stick, nickel and then I just mig welded to look good) on top then drilled holes on top and screwed a few big screws I had around, then just grinded the screw heads and filled any hole with my mig.
Very interesting, to say the least. Thank for taking the time and effort, to demonstrate what has been questioned, for a while now. Well done Sir! 👍🔥⚒️🙏🏼
Paused at 55secs... My theory is that since H.F. puts out such quality products, the anvil will take a hardness of around 70 rockwell, but still have some spring in it so it doesnt shatter and give good rebound on the strikes.
it seems folks are conflating cast iron with steel. From my understanding you cannot harden cast iron. you need a hardenable steel so the only way to harden this anvil would be to melt it down, add carbon and other elements for the steel alloy of choice and then recast.
Wow that's pretty interesting out come Roy. I will keep my anvil pinto. She is working hard and very well. Can't wait to see more videos soon. Keep up the great craftsmanship and hard work my friend Roy. Forge on. Keep making. God bless.
I'd try redoing it and partially case harden the top. i.e. add more carbon/hardness. You'd think cast iron would have TONS of carbon, but it's probably cast steel.
So, a 12-18 inch piece of 4140 3in round heat treat from Speedy Metals or whatever tilted up vertically would be a better bet for a newbie I'm thinking.
Definately. Someone wrote a comment above that Harbor Freight anvils are only anvil shaped objects. They are good for straightening nails or for paperweights. Cast iron is not hardenable.
15-20 years ago I bought a 110 lb "made in Russia" anvil from HF and it is a gem; great hammer rebound and it rings like a (high pitched) bell. The only weird thing about it is that the hardy hole is rotated 45 degrees so that end-to-end it looks like a diamond instead of a square.
You can hear some of the grain structure cracking during the quench. I’d much rather use a good forged anvil than harbor freight’s cast stuff. I know it’s cheaper, but if I’m gonna invest in an anvil, I’d rather buy something nicer, and buy it once than have to buy a cheap one over and over again. I’ve applied this logic to Allen wrenches (which we use daily in my line of work) and I spent $170 on 3 sets of really nice Japanese allens, and they still look brand new despite using them daily. When I was young and would buy cheap sets, I’d have to replace a cheap $15 set every 3 months or so. Which, over the course of the year would have paid for the 1 nice set that would have replaced. At roughly $50/set plus shipping, my colleagues have been using the same set of the nice ones for 15 years and they still look new to this day. So, when you buy quality the first time, you shouldn’t have to keep buying junk over and over again. Even if it saves in the short term, it’ll save even more in the long term to invest in the good stuff.
"do not do this at home" right you are roy! most blacksmiths do this at rivers! the cold water flow helps harden the anvil as it prevents steam jacketing and boiling water splashes.
I have one of these weights. I was going to add an inch of Hard face welding rods to improve the rebound. Either that, or weld a chunk of much better steel on top.
I'd go with the plate of steel over the welding rods, as you can do it pretty quickly running a single bead along each of the four sides instead of welding several rods in place. That's what I did with my 55lb HF anvil and it has been working like a charm for almost a decade now.
I'm not surprised grey cast iron doesn't water Quench well as the cooling rate is too fast. air, oil, molten salt seem more apt. of those Air is safer and considering the limits you mentioned in your shop air is probibly best. Which gives me the thought that plate quenching with a large/thick aluminum "plate" would be better. As brittle as it was it makes me think it needed tempering which would have likely brought the hardness back to those stock conditions... as such even plate quenching maynot wouldn't help it. maybe something like surface hardened by the induction method or Flame hardening method. (of course those would need to be tempered or "Stress Relieving" at 150-200C [302-392F] too)
we just put a hardened steel plate on top of ours to make it more useable. I also have one and use it for leatherworking. it's perfect for that. lol but yea it's more of a soft Hobbie anvil than a smith one.
I know this may be A stupid question but I'm just starting out and yeah.. is that water your quenching the anvil in? do you always use water or do you use a oil quench? Which do you think is better and why?
Hi Roy, Interesting test on the HF anvil. I am no medelergist, but did you actually change the molecular structure of the iron when you heated and quenched the anvil?🤔 I have heard stories about HF anvils are poor cast-iron to start with. I have large hand tools from HF without problems, just be careful of what you buy. 👍 ⚒
I've got the 50 pound i think, plenty for what i need it to do. Throws the six pound sledge back up some. Hasnt cracked. Once I've got the money its definitely gonna be a back up though.
I have a 11 kg Anvil that is quite soft I was actually thinking about doing this putting into my furnace and then quenching it then tempering it back in my house oven I'm intrigued to see what your videos like I haven't watched it yet I decided to comment first
I have 2 HF anvils. One Russian 100lb anvil purchased in 2007 that rings like a bell with some rebound and the other is 55lbs of iron slag compressed into a rough anvil shape.
I’m not experienced at all at hardening metal. But would it not be better to fully submerge the Anville to cool it faster? Seems it cooled very slow just barely being submerged at the top of the oil. Again. Just curious.
I've heard of people welding plates on, always assumed they meant arc welding. (and quite a few did, I suppose). Somehow The thought never occurred to me that you could forge weld it. That might actually be the best possible "upgrade", short of selling it and buying a better anvil.
I am still very new to anything other than some stick and MIG welding but I have always heard that you can't weld cast iron. Is forge welding different in that respect?
@@markhenrikson9790 You can weld cast, but it is not easy to do, well beyond the abilities and equipment of your average amateur welder. As for forge welding, My understanding is you can bond pretty much any metals that you can get hot enough, and can keep from forming scale/oxide, but there could be some that don't work.
Something that thick really needs a coolant circulation pump. Your going to get soft spots from steam pockets and generally poor quench in the critical range without a direct impingement from a fast flow [jet] of coolant regardless of base coolant temp or type. I'm curious about getting it hot like that but applying an air hardening, or work hardening, hardfacing layer with a torch with a light quench. Though it may cost more for good hardfacing material and torch gas than the anvil is worth. (Not talking about the common no name stuff used on a half crippled backhoe, there are special formulas for each sort of wear and hardness need.) The better way to do cast iron is to cast it in a mold with a chill block insert to make a white iron layer on the top. I don't know if it is possible [or practical] to form white iron with heat treatment of the solid object after casting. Maybe some sort of process that melts a thin surface layer and lets the bulk self-chill. The down side is that a white iron top would need surface grinding rather than a fast pass machining. White iron was traditionally popular for the tire of train wheels and plow shares meant for sandy soil (high abrasive).
Hi Roy and Jess I thought the face would break off and fall apart like your idea but Im surprised the heel fell off, Merry christmas hopefully talk to you in the stream tomorrow
Physics - you can't do anything with cast iron far as heat treating goes. Best you can do is break it like they did - cast iron is super brittle as it is - heating it glowing hot and drowning it will assure you of a break - just like dumping cold water into a well overheated motor block.
Yes and no. With cast iron, it's a lost cause. In general, though, you are 100% correct. The lydenfrost effect forms a "pocket" of steam around the anvil, preventing it from further cooling it. Historically, anvils were often quenched under running water, often a waterfall or "shower" type rig. Even moving it around helps break up the pocket, but fast moving water is better.
@oddjobbob I expect if someone really wanted to they could have a tool steel plate forge welded to the HF anvil. My old Fisher is made that way, tool steel plate on cast iron body. Nice anvil, no ring so I don't get run out of my neighborhood. Far as quenching goes, just for fun, what about hot water or salted water? May be less shock to the cast iron.
You need carbon to harden. They used to dip it in cyanide. Also, sugar and walnut shells were used. Harbor Freight has some excellent tools if you use them correctly. I have a thirteen-foot fishing boat and the Harbor Freight anvil has worked very well as an anchor for years. I have seen them work great for doorstops. If you don't misuse their tools they will last you for years.
Just about what I thought. Quick tip. If the item being Rockwell tested is something important, start with the low end files. Check in the same place each time. When you finally make a scratch, the Rockwell will be approximately half way between it and the previous one that didn't. The diamond tipped single prick gauges will produce a more accurate result should you need one. I'm guessing this vice was just used for testing, and; not serious use.
My best guess, If you're just using a bucket, It will either shatter, or won't harden much, if any. Most likely it's cast iron, which won't properly harden. Even if it does have the right amount carbon, the anvil will boil off the water and insulate itself, to the point that it cools too slowly to properly harden. I've heard that old anvils were often hardened under a waterfall, so the moving water overcomes the steam jacket and actually quenches it.
Question; if you coated the surface with a mixture of clay and carbon then heated it up and let it soak to absorb some of the carbon. Then cooled and removed the clay then hardened it. Would that work or is the grain structure just too course?
Just my 2 cents, but that was a bad quench. Quenching items with a lot of mass need to be agitated to prevent a steam barrier. Steam barrier gives a very slow quench preventing hardness
Also with hardening metals most metals need to be tempered back as they would be to brittle and shatter if struck or dropped from a distance . It kinda makes me think the casting got hard but because its cast it is easy to break when hard so that's why they leave them soft anvils , my question would be can you weld a solid high carbon steel to the anvil and harden the piece of high carbon steel ? Oh and oil quench or water quench with bigger pieces you would want to warm the quenching liquid before your hot metal goes in for a dip
Questions, how thick is the top plate at what temp did you heat it to, how long did you allow the anvil to soak at that temperature.... these will all effect the hardness, including the material type. ASM has good guidelines to follow....
Could you weld on a 1in thick steel plate for it to work better. I have access to getting pieces of steel that thick up to 3in thick. Just asking before I go asking to get a chunk out of there recycle bin.
Cast iron won't make any difference. The material can't be hardened. The surface of the piece can look like it's been hardened, but that hardened layer will be only microns thick, because cast iron has too much carbon in it. It's for lowering the melting temperature. It causes the casting to be rigid (fragile) and relatively soft, not malleable. You can quench steels that you can forge and reach good results. You can have success with a piece of 4140 for example.
I've found a 100% effective solution to the problem. You'll need a refractory vessel to hold the anvil, some flux, a bit of extra steel and an appropriate furnace. Put the pricasaurus rex anvil into the vessel, we'll call it a crucible, add the additional metal and flux. Put the lot of it into the blast furnace and allow all to melt. Form an ingot of the appropriate size and shape, then forge your anvil. More work would be to heat the damnable thing up to when the iron reaches a eutectic state, reforge it properly, then flatten and reshape as needed, then harden. But, that'd be even more work to get it right, as you'd have to forge all around and the core would likely still be crap.
I would be interested to see what might happen if you got the whole anvil in the quench. The face being harder around the edges makes me think the mass kept the centre from cooling quick enough.
Harbor freight anvils are a mild cast iron. They are not meant to be surface hardened. They are just meant to be us d as is. For those that are just starting out that don't have a lot of money to put in to a good anvil. An an easy way to get a harder surface is to have a plate of hard-dox steel welded on to the the working face.
Totally off-subject question. I've seen several smiths using copper sheeting in vises to protect their work from scratches and marks. What thickness copper sheeting do you recommend?
My experience is that it is safer and easier to simply use hard facing welding rods for cast iron, build up about 3/8-1/2 surface and grind/machine flat and smooth, and polish to desired finish.
Can you forge weld on a faceplate to the harbor freight anvil? th-cam.com/video/sLzq8WShJXM/w-d-xo.html This is the latest video in this series... You don't want to miss it!
I wonder if it is possible to weld or bolt a steel plate to the top?
Yes I made several fire pokers
Harbor freight does have some good tools and other items, but they have some real klinkers in there too. The anvils are klinkers. But there is something you can do to them. Get a sturdy rope and tie it through the Hardy hole. Row out into the nearest body of salt water until it is far enough to begin getting less polluted. 3/4 mile should do. Next, hang the anvil over the side with the rope. Then, cut the rope, row back to shore, and feel the burn from the workout. Finally, go invest in a decent anvil.
Yes!! Always go to a unpolluted place to pollute! I love humans!!!
HF anvils: not good for blacksmithing. _Great_ for your typical DIYer's "anvil-shaped object" needs.
@@rockylong7546 Hey, it's just raising the iron content of the water. Helping the local wildlife have healthy hemoglobin levels!
@@gpweaver don’t say hemoglobin. I am part globin and my mom is full hemo. OFFENSIVE!!
@@rockylong7546 good, be offended
Really surprised you didn't take a quick pass with a flap wheel to get that scale off before any testing.
why? the scale gives good contrast shows the scratches better. would be the opposite of what you want
@@genghischuan4886 but for the ball bearing bounce test that has to be dampening some of the inertia.
Yeah the scale is really deadening the rebound potential. Kinda surprised they overlooked that one.
@@genghischuan4886 But are you only seeing scratches in the oxide and not the hardened steel? Tough to tell.
@@jasondavis3244 Here is the deal, it was all just horse shit anyway. people who work metal know that if you try to water harden a dirty cast not to mention partial water quench. The whole thing was retarded, then all this dont do this at home shit. who cares about the scale. and seriously anyone watching this already knows how to do this anyway. If they really wanter to do a water quench then antifreeze should have been in the water. This was stupid
Trying to turn an HF ASO into a useful anvil by any means reminds me of the famous Robert Heinlein line: "Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."
You might be able to melt it down 2 or 3 of them, and cast them directly over a preheated and fluxed rectangular plate of 4140 or 5160 which can be hardened after the fact to give you a simple knife making anvil with a hard face and plenty of mass(assuming the face actually sticks).
I watch a lot of these types of videos on TH-cam, and I'm very happy to see you guys working as safely as possible. Full leathers, gloves, safety glasses at all times, face shield for extra protection... you're the real deal. Thank you for being a good example.
Considering Harbor Fright's track record with quality control, it's probably going to either crack or shatter on quenching, but if you luck and grab the golden ticket one, you'll have a pretty decent entry level anvil that isn't just an ASO.
I've bought a screw driver where the point chipped turning a stuck screw, took it back and swapped it out and now i use that thing for prying staples and such. Harbor Freight is just a Blue Collar Casino.
LoL love that blue collar casino 🤣
I watch Project Farm, The Harbor Freight car battery jump box, couldn't jump a Ford 4 Cyl Ranger. The Harbor Freight zip-ties, the best. I got an open box small shop vac for about $20, amazing for small, tight area jobs, use the hell out of it. picks up screws and nails Your comment, on track. I have engine hoists and stands. about 3 floor jacks, couple ATV jacks and jack stands, never had an issue. The ATV lifts I use all the time on our Harley's and other motorcycles. One of the floor jacks I use on my F350. I have busted some of their hand tools, but I am fine with it. Need to modify a hand tool, cheap is the way to go. I have a lot of old made in USA Craftsman, not going to grind an open end wrench to fit in a small spot I'll most likely use once. This is where Harbor Freight shines. Sometimes cheap tools are priceless.
I've bought things from HF and now, I wouldn't buy a pencil there.
@@michaelconran5252 the rule I was tight growing up, if you need it for one job, go to HF, if you need it to last go to Sears
@@deathsicon unfortunately Craftsman is not the same anymore. Most of the Craftsman is have is from 80's early 90's. Now I buy other brands that have lifetime warranties. I got cheap if it something I will only use a few times. I went cheaper on the 72 Torx I may use 2 or 3 more times on my Harleys luckily over the years I have anywhere from 3 to 5 of everything.
I have to say. My first anvil was a harbor freight. And honestly it lasted longer than my knowledge surpassed it. The first smiths bashed against a rock or mild steel anvil. Buy what you can, heat it up with what you can an whack it
Ah, but remember, one of Adam's sons was the originator of metalworking. That means he was probably taught by God Himself, and it's likely there was no "bronze age." The Bible mentions steel and iron long before secular "scientists" believe it existed.
So how do you explain the bronze weapons and armor we have found
@@kylejohns2288 Satan put those there to fool us, like dinosaur bones and UFOs
Wow that was interesting Roy, however I think I will keep mine as is for my grandson he still love it!! Thanks for the Great Video Wayne
Thank you Wayne
It looked to me like the failure originated at the hardy hole. The sharp 90 degree corners are stress risers and cause brittle fracture during heat treatment. You may have had some grain growth, but I would be willing to bet that it would have survived if you had radiused or chamfered those square edges before taking it up to temp. Neat video, thanks.
I honestly wondered about this.
Since they use "ductile iron," (not cast iron, which is actually VERY high carbon) which actually has a decent graphite content, it actually stood to reason that it would be hardenable on some level.
Something I have found hardening home made tools is that those surface oxides can be a fair bit softer than the hard metal underneath.
Wouldn't u want to polish off the surface oxides im no pro
@@mikehancho3500 Not just those, also decarburization (decarb) - a layer where the inverse of case hardening has happened - air has leached out the carbon. Usually quite thin but some steels and long soak times can cause deeper layers.
Also with hardening metals most metals need to be tempered back as they would be to brittle and shatter if struck or dropped from a distance . It kinda makes me think the casting got hard but because its cast it is easy to break when hard so that's why they leave them soft anvils , my question would be can you weld a solid high carbon steel to the anvil and harden the piece of high carbon steel ?
Fantastic work man! My harbor freight anvil is still a good part of my shop, use it when I don’t want to damage my good one haha. Keep doing an amazing job! Happy holidays!
Thank you William merry Christmas to you and yours 🎅🏼🎅🏼🎅🏼🎄🎄🌨️🌨️❄️
@@ChristCenteredIronworks Thank ya!
Exactly what cheap tools are for. Can modify, and use them in a pinch as they were not intended to be used. Break it, who cares? break that old Craftsman (When they were good) or Snap-On, you cry.
I was under the impression most anvils only had the tops hardened or work hardened, not the whole top half. You learn something new every day.
That was interesting for sure. I have a theory about the improved rebound; could it be that having it upside down in the forge melted the Bondo inside the anvil and caused it to settle against the face, thereby increasing the rebound without actually improving the anvil itself?
There is no bondo inside a casting, and any bondo in surface pits would burn out way before those temperatures, its basically plastic.
Thanks for sharing! Makes sense: More hard makes more brittle. Cast iron is already brittle, but soft. Thanks! It is better for tools to have a little less hardness in exchange for decreasing the chance of easier and more dangerous failure. Great live stream tonight, by the way.
Haven't watched your content yet, but I love Christ, so I'm now subscribed!
I am building my own anvil out of I beam and a 1" thick block of 4140 for the striking face.
The 4140 should harden up to about 52 Rockwell.
I was wondering how to heat the thing up, but had not considered using a coal forge to heat just the 4140 part. I was planning on building a furnace around the thing!
Very helpful.
Let us know how it turns out!
The biggest issue I see is that you can't harden cast iron. Good experiment though.
LOL. Sounds like you need to do more research before making sweeping statements and presenting them as fact.
i wasn't surprised by this at all, especially the hardy hole popping off like that, its cast so any amount of hardening will absolutely destroy the entegrity of the crystal structure, forged steel has a much tighter and consolidated structure and so when you harden it, it essentially interlaces the crystals almost like a rope interlaces threads to make a stronger item. Cast iron is like taking those threads and hanging something from them untwisted.
First, cast does not mean cast iron. Second, forging does not consolidate material or "intertwine" the grain. Third, rope is not stronger because it is twisted.
Iron is a crystal. It does not have long or stringy grains, it is more akin to sandstone or quartzite (metamorphic sandstone where to silicate grains grow together from being exposed to high heat). Casting has the potential to create voids or porosity from the process failing or being done improperly, but heat treatment itself can do far more to refine and homogenize the grain structure than "forging" can. Besides, what does it really mean to have a forged anvil? How did they create the billet in the first place? Are the feet, horn, heel, and face all welded onto the waist? Is it arc welded or forge welded? Are those perfect welds, or are they just as susseptible to failure as a cast anvil?
A good anvil is a good piece of iron made well, regardless of the method used in it's construction.
@@DragonHide94 ok first, I said Cast, not Cast IRON, I understand the difference, still like you said, hardening cast at all destroys any strength the metal had because of all the voids and the lack of consolidation of the grain of the crystals, you can see it when the hardy breaks off how large the crystal grain is
the difference between cast and forged metal is the grain structure of the metal, forging tightens that structure and you get much more grains in a smaller area
I used rope as an example because and I quote "The twist of the strands in a twisted or braided rope serves not only to keep a rope together, but enables the rope to more evenly distribute tension among the individual strands. Without any twist in the rope, the shortest strand(s) would always be supporting a much higher proportion of the total load."
but i guess i should have used gems as an example, quartz is loose and not consolidated well, while diamond from heat and pressure is far harder.
there's a difference here between hardness and strength though, the harder the steel the more brittle it becomes, the stronger the steel the more easily it bends.
the best anvils are forged because you tighten up the grain structure, remove any possible voids in the steel and then can heat treat it to harden, cast may be able to be hardened but will not be as strong as forged steel, there's a reason steel swords are never made from castings.
@@thejackofalldans786 I have neither the time, not the crayons to explain why everything you just said is wrong (except the rope because it was a quote from elsewhere).
that barn looks like a great summer shop but not so much of a winter shop. 😃
Almost didn’t recognize you with the beard!! Good video! God bless!
I welded a steel plate (stick, nickel and then I just mig welded to look good) on top then drilled holes on top and screwed a few big screws I had around, then just grinded the screw heads and filled any hole with my mig.
Screwed or bolted? They are two entirely different fasteners.
@@chrisallen9154 bolted
you answered my question at the end of the video. Thanks
Very interesting, to say the least. Thank for taking the time and effort, to demonstrate what has been questioned, for a while now. Well done Sir! 👍🔥⚒️🙏🏼
Nice job Roy. That ending surprised me!
Me too buddy 👍
Paused at 55secs... My theory is that since H.F. puts out such quality products, the anvil will take a hardness of around 70 rockwell, but still have some spring in it so it doesnt shatter and give good rebound on the strikes.
LoL I see what you did there 😉🤫
it seems folks are conflating cast iron with steel. From my understanding you cannot harden cast iron. you need a hardenable steel so the only way to harden this anvil would be to melt it down, add carbon and other elements for the steel alloy of choice and then recast.
Cast iron has MORE carbon than steel, not less. That makes it brittle, which is why it's unsuitable as an anvil.
I'm honestly amazed that anvil didn't snap in half during the quench.
That is crazy I'm going to take your advice and not quench my anvil. Without your videos I would have destroyed my forge THANK YOU!!!
Wow that's pretty interesting out come Roy. I will keep my anvil pinto. She is working hard and very well. Can't wait to see more videos soon. Keep up the great craftsmanship and hard work my friend Roy. Forge on. Keep making. God bless.
I'd try redoing it and partially case harden the top. i.e. add more carbon/hardness. You'd think cast iron would have TONS of carbon, but it's probably cast steel.
The HF anvil makes a great door stop!
So, a 12-18 inch piece of 4140 3in round heat treat from Speedy Metals or whatever tilted up vertically would be a better bet for a newbie I'm thinking.
Definately. Someone wrote a comment above that Harbor Freight anvils are only anvil shaped objects. They are good for straightening nails or for paperweights. Cast iron is not hardenable.
Cast iron can be flame or induction hardened (common for machine ways, gears, etc).
15-20 years ago I bought a 110 lb "made in Russia" anvil from HF and it is a gem; great hammer rebound and it rings like a (high pitched) bell. The only weird thing about it is that the hardy hole is rotated 45 degrees so that end-to-end it looks like a diamond instead of a square.
Thank you for the fun test. Merry Christmas 🎅
Thank you Wayne merry Christmas And God bless you Sir 🎅🏼🎄🌨️❄️
You can hear some of the grain structure cracking during the quench. I’d much rather use a good forged anvil than harbor freight’s cast stuff. I know it’s cheaper, but if I’m gonna invest in an anvil, I’d rather buy something nicer, and buy it once than have to buy a cheap one over and over again. I’ve applied this logic to Allen wrenches (which we use daily in my line of work) and I spent $170 on 3 sets of really nice Japanese allens, and they still look brand new despite using them daily. When I was young and would buy cheap sets, I’d have to replace a cheap $15 set every 3 months or so. Which, over the course of the year would have paid for the 1 nice set that would have replaced. At roughly $50/set plus shipping, my colleagues have been using the same set of the nice ones for 15 years and they still look new to this day. So, when you buy quality the first time, you shouldn’t have to keep buying junk over and over again. Even if it saves in the short term, it’ll save even more in the long term to invest in the good stuff.
it would have been better had they used oil instead of water to quench it
@@signolias100 maybe.
Would have been better if they’d gotten some railroad rail…. Hope to get some railroad rail myself.
"do not do this at home"
right you are roy! most blacksmiths do this at rivers!
the cold water flow helps harden the anvil as it prevents steam jacketing and boiling water splashes.
Many blessings. Happy holidays. Thank you for your channel
BTW I'm guessing the anvil will crumble
Thank you and merry Christmas to you and yours as well ❤️
You made your shop into a sauna that's great thinking man 😂
I have one of these weights. I was going to add an inch of Hard face welding rods to improve the rebound. Either that, or weld a chunk of much better steel on top.
I'd go with the plate of steel over the welding rods, as you can do it pretty quickly running a single bead along each of the four sides instead of welding several rods in place. That's what I did with my 55lb HF anvil and it has been working like a charm for almost a decade now.
@@danielthompson6207 I had the same thought after posting the comment. 4 welding rods would be better than 100 welding rods.
I'm not surprised grey cast iron doesn't water Quench well as the cooling rate is too fast. air, oil, molten salt seem more apt. of those Air is safer and considering the limits you mentioned in your shop air is probibly best. Which gives me the thought that plate quenching with a large/thick aluminum "plate" would be better.
As brittle as it was it makes me think it needed tempering which would have likely brought the hardness back to those stock conditions... as such even plate quenching maynot wouldn't help it.
maybe something like surface hardened by the induction method or Flame hardening method. (of course those would need to be tempered or "Stress Relieving" at 150-200C [302-392F] too)
That was a great example of a stress riser tho. Right at the hard corners of the Hardy hole.
we just put a hardened steel plate on top of ours to make it more useable. I also have one and use it for leatherworking. it's perfect for that. lol but yea it's more of a soft Hobbie anvil than a smith one.
I know this may be A stupid question but I'm just starting out and yeah.. is that water your quenching the anvil in? do you always use water or do you use a oil quench? Which do you think is better and why?
Did you temper it after quenching? Maybe it would not fall off after the hammer strike.
Ah man I can't believe you said don't do this at home. Now I can't fire up the industrial forge in my living room :(
would you do the drop test with mill scale taken off?
Can you weld a thick chunk of steel on the top surface?
Hi Roy, Interesting test on the HF anvil. I am no medelergist, but did you actually change the molecular structure of the iron when you heated and quenched the anvil?🤔 I have heard stories about HF anvils are poor cast-iron to start with. I have large hand tools from HF without problems, just be careful of what you buy. 👍 ⚒
The best thing I have found is to have an H13 plate welded to the top of it
I've got the 50 pound i think, plenty for what i need it to do. Throws the six pound sledge back up some. Hasnt cracked. Once I've got the money its definitely gonna be a back up though.
Paused the video when you said:
Would love to see it explode in the quench but I predict it just wont harden well
I have a 11 kg Anvil that is quite soft I was actually thinking about doing this putting into my furnace and then quenching it then tempering it back in my house oven I'm intrigued to see what your videos like I haven't watched it yet I decided to comment first
I have 2 HF anvils. One Russian 100lb anvil purchased in 2007 that rings like a bell with some rebound and the other is 55lbs of iron slag compressed into a rough anvil shape.
The Russian anvils are solid performers.
I’m not experienced at all at hardening metal. But would it not be better to fully submerge the Anville to cool it faster? Seems it cooled very slow just barely being submerged at the top of the oil. Again. Just curious.
Merry Christmas to you and your family
Thank you And merry Christmas to you and your family as well 🎅🏼🎅🏼🎄🎄🌨️🌨️
Where would you recommend getting a good anvil?
Holland anvil made in Michigan or if you are on a budget The #66 double Horn anvils online like The one I reviewed would be good 🙂
Thank you
&
Merry Christmas.
How many requests did you have
for forge welding steel plate to
the H.F. anvil ?
Merry Christmas And maybe enough to test ? 🤔
I've heard of people welding plates on, always assumed they meant arc welding. (and quite a few did, I suppose). Somehow The thought never occurred to me that you could forge weld it. That might actually be the best possible "upgrade", short of selling it and buying a better anvil.
I am still very new to anything other than some stick and MIG welding but I have always heard that you can't weld cast iron. Is forge welding different in that respect?
@@markhenrikson9790 You can weld cast, but it is not easy to do, well beyond the abilities and equipment of your average amateur welder. As for forge welding, My understanding is you can bond pretty much any metals that you can get hot enough, and can keep from forming scale/oxide, but there could be some that don't work.
have youbtried milling down the flat area and welding on a hardened steel?
I think when the anvil gets quenched another 100k people will “vote” at 2am in the morning in Wisconsin.
🤔
Would welding a sheet of hard steel to the cheap anvil accomish anything?
Would never ever buy one of those anvils. But could you braze a plate of tool steel to the top?
That's in the video cue 🙂 stay tuned
Something that thick really needs a coolant circulation pump. Your going to get soft spots from steam pockets and generally poor quench in the critical range without a direct impingement from a fast flow [jet] of coolant regardless of base coolant temp or type. I'm curious about getting it hot like that but applying an air hardening, or work hardening, hardfacing layer with a torch with a light quench. Though it may cost more for good hardfacing material and torch gas than the anvil is worth. (Not talking about the common no name stuff used on a half crippled backhoe, there are special formulas for each sort of wear and hardness need.)
The better way to do cast iron is to cast it in a mold with a chill block insert to make a white iron layer on the top. I don't know if it is possible [or practical] to form white iron with heat treatment of the solid object after casting. Maybe some sort of process that melts a thin surface layer and lets the bulk self-chill. The down side is that a white iron top would need surface grinding rather than a fast pass machining. White iron was traditionally popular for the tire of train wheels and plow shares meant for sandy soil (high abrasive).
Hi Roy and Jess I thought the face would break off and fall apart like your idea but Im surprised the heel fell off, Merry christmas hopefully talk to you in the stream tomorrow
Looking forward to it 🙂
i feel like if you moved the anvil around while quenching it might be harder. do you think it would make a difference?
Physics - you can't do anything with cast iron far as heat treating goes. Best you can do is break it like they did - cast iron is super brittle as it is - heating it glowing hot and drowning it will assure you of a break - just like dumping cold water into a well overheated motor block.
Yes and no. With cast iron, it's a lost cause. In general, though, you are 100% correct. The lydenfrost effect forms a "pocket" of steam around the anvil, preventing it from further cooling it. Historically, anvils were often quenched under running water, often a waterfall or "shower" type rig. Even moving it around helps break up the pocket, but fast moving water is better.
@oddjobbob I expect if someone really wanted to they could have a tool steel plate forge welded to the HF anvil. My old Fisher is made that way, tool steel plate on cast iron body. Nice anvil, no ring so I don't get run out of my neighborhood.
Far as quenching goes, just for fun, what about hot water or salted water? May be less shock to the cast iron.
You need carbon to harden. They used to dip it in cyanide. Also, sugar and walnut shells were used. Harbor Freight has some excellent tools if you use them correctly. I have a thirteen-foot
fishing boat and the Harbor Freight anvil has worked very well as an anchor for years. I have seen them work great for doorstops. If you don't misuse their tools they will last you for years.
Great show roy merry christmas 🎄
Can you hard face the anvil surface using a welder? Essentially welding a new surface on it?
Just about what I thought. Quick tip. If the item being Rockwell tested is something important, start with the low end files. Check in the same place each time. When you finally make a scratch, the Rockwell will be approximately half way between it and the previous one that didn't. The diamond tipped single prick gauges will produce a more accurate result should you need one. I'm guessing this vice was just used for testing, and; not serious use.
What a fun test I was hoping it would explode when we put in the water
You killed it, then again, it was half dead when you bought it. lol
thank you for this video , is this time of xmass madness THIS is sanity ! :)
Thanks for doing this. I own one of these pieces of crap and was wondering!
Stay tuned I think 🤔 I've found a method that is going to work wonders on this junk anvil 😊
My best guess, If you're just using a bucket, It will either shatter, or won't harden much, if any. Most likely it's cast iron, which won't properly harden. Even if it does have the right amount carbon, the anvil will boil off the water and insulate itself, to the point that it cools too slowly to properly harden. I've heard that old anvils were often hardened under a waterfall, so the moving water overcomes the steam jacket and actually quenches it.
Question; if you coated the surface with a mixture of clay and carbon then heated it up and let it soak to absorb some of the carbon. Then cooled and removed the clay then hardened it. Would that work or is the grain structure just too course?
Whats the difference in cast iron and ductile iron? Is ductile iron an ok anvil?
The word you were looking for was “Subjective” testing
Thank you 😊 I knew I was wrong The second I Said it but hey that's The way it works in the moment filming 🙂
i hardfaced mine with 7018 SMAW rods
Just my 2 cents, but that was a bad quench. Quenching items with a lot of mass need to be agitated to prevent a steam barrier. Steam barrier gives a very slow quench preventing hardness
They are still great for dropping on coyotes and getting cows into jars.
Also with hardening metals most metals need to be tempered back as they would be to brittle and shatter if struck or dropped from a distance . It kinda makes me think the casting got hard but because its cast it is easy to break when hard so that's why they leave them soft anvils , my question would be can you weld a solid high carbon steel to the anvil and harden the piece of high carbon steel ? Oh and oil quench or water quench with bigger pieces you would want to warm the quenching liquid before your hot metal goes in for a dip
Questions, how thick is the top plate at what temp did you heat it to, how long did you allow the anvil to soak at that temperature.... these will all effect the hardness, including the material type. ASM has good guidelines to follow....
Could a guy forge weld a piece of leaf spring or forklift tine to the top of it?
We will have to see 😉
My guess is as soon as you put it in the oil it does the usual bubble and smoke maybe some flames then it cracks
Tom you broke his anvil!
Could you weld on a 1in thick steel plate for it to work better. I have access to getting pieces of steel that thick up to 3in thick. Just asking before I go asking to get a chunk out of there recycle bin.
As was suspected. Thanks, buddy.
Thank you brother ❤️
Interesting video. Would it make a difference if you were able to evenly heat the entire "anvil" AND quench it in plenty of oil?
Cast iron won't make any difference. The material can't be hardened. The surface of the piece can look like it's been hardened, but that hardened layer will be only microns thick, because cast iron has too much carbon in it. It's for lowering the melting temperature. It causes the casting to be rigid (fragile) and relatively soft, not malleable. You can quench steels that you can forge and reach good results. You can have success with a piece of 4140 for example.
@@baladar1353 That answers my question, thank you.
Isn’t a harbor freight anvil cast iron? If so I expect it to not only not heat treat well, but crack in pieces from the voids
I've found a 100% effective solution to the problem.
You'll need a refractory vessel to hold the anvil, some flux, a bit of extra steel and an appropriate furnace.
Put the pricasaurus rex anvil into the vessel, we'll call it a crucible, add the additional metal and flux. Put the lot of it into the blast furnace and allow all to melt. Form an ingot of the appropriate size and shape, then forge your anvil.
More work would be to heat the damnable thing up to when the iron reaches a eutectic state, reforge it properly, then flatten and reshape as needed, then harden. But, that'd be even more work to get it right, as you'd have to forge all around and the core would likely still be crap.
Did you temper the anvil after hardening?
So, is it the carbon content that's too low? Or is it just hard to heat because its a giant mass of metal?
I would be interested to see what might happen if you got the whole anvil in the quench. The face being harder around the edges makes me think the mass kept the centre from cooling quick enough.
Harbor freight anvils are a mild cast iron. They are not meant to be surface hardened. They are just meant to be us d as is. For those that are just starting out that don't have a lot of money to put in to a good anvil. An an easy way to get a harder surface is to have a plate of hard-dox steel welded on to the the working face.
Did you quench in oil or water? It looked like water.
Totally off-subject question. I've seen several smiths using copper sheeting in vises to protect their work from scratches and marks. What thickness copper sheeting do you recommend?
You would also want to temper it before hammering on it.
For giggles I wonder if you'd be able to case harden it
My experience is that it is safer and easier to simply use hard facing welding rods for cast iron, build up about 3/8-1/2 surface and grind/machine flat and smooth, and polish to desired finish.
can you flatten the warp in a cast iron skillet?
Not to My knowledge but you could always try
@@ChristCenteredIronworks No, it is not my area of expertise, just thought a metals guy would know.