RMAF14: High Fidelity Stereo - That’s not Natural! How to make it that way
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ธ.ค. 2024
- Moderator: Bob Robbins, myspeakersetup.com
We'll start with the basics of how we hear and how it conflicts with the stereo reproduction of music. Everything we hear in life is in mono. The inherent problem with stereo is there are two sources of sound (the speakers) attempting to reproduce the mono sources of music. Our hearing mechanism can tell that's what is happening, and it produces phase distortions, irritation, annoyance and boredom effects that are subtle, but highly prevalent.
How to fix it - The Art of Rational Speaker Placement - Makes it so the speakers work together as if they form one large mono speaker, but with imaging capabilities
Amazing.....I don't have hi end equipment but I have been very drawn to the sound of stereo. There has always been something I've been searching for but I didn't know what it was. I watched this and bang! Now I have depth and width and height to my music. I now don't have speakers I have instruments and singers. The rake angle was a massive difference for me! I spent the next 3 hours listening to my music and no longer am I looking to improve my equipment. Thank you so much Bob....I'm locked in and now music sounds magical really awesome.
Thanks for letting me know about your success with my setup process, well done!
Thank-you Bob..your seminar has enabled me to "Really" hear my Polk Audio speakers with an amazing soundstage, for the 1st time in the 15 years that i have owned them!!! "YOU" have made my Vinyl listening so much more Enjoyable!!! Thank-you Sir.. Richard
I always love to hear from people when they finally hear their hi fis live up to their potential. Sorry it took 15 years, hope it was worth the wait.
Hello
I just spent few hours applying this method and I must say it's amazing!!! I never listened my system so good before. Speakers disappeared and music is playing in an area around and behind the speakers.
I was not able yet to change toe In because previous operation took me to much concentration. Was not able to go further. But in few days I will come back. In-between I will ENJOY my records like never.
REALLY THANKs 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Congratulations, I'm glad you've experienced such great results.
I've been a speaker nut from the age of 8, collecting anything that had a dust cap, a + and - whether housed in cabinets or just loose.
My favourite record around that time was Cliff Richard's "Wired For Sound" Small Speakers, Tall speakers, Wall speakers etc. Loved it.
By the time I was 15 I owned my own PA system, an H&H configuration that was taller than I was once set up. I think my speaker fetish
came from a strong desire and passion to be heard coming through them. I've been a professional drummer for most of my life being
heard through huge Theatre Line Array Systems, All my life its been Drums, Music & Speakers.
I'm 53 now and I kid you not, I can't move for speakers & hifi, Missions, Teac, Elac, Bang & Olfsen, Paradigm, Tannoy, Denon, Pioneer,
JVC, Technics, Keff, Cerwin Vega, BMB, JBL, Sansui, Polk, Kenwood, Omni Audio, M-Audio, Event, Community, RCF, Peavey, Eltax, JPW,
Fane, Wellington, Acoustic Solutions, Kenwood, LS Subs & Line Arrays, Celestion, Roland Stage Drum Monitors, the list goes on & on.
Then there's all my hifi seperates for home use which would take a couple of hours to name them, then there's all my stage amps,
QSC, Yamaha etc. Then there's my Drums, 2xYamaha 9000 Series Acoustic Kits and 2xRoland TD20s, I got it bad don't you think?
There is a pair of speakers or should I say fruit machines that I would die for, the Alexander XLFs made by Wilson.
I am very familiar with the sweet spot bliss, the best way I can describe it is to say, you'll know when you've got it just right because
your sweet spot listening chair will now give you the satisfaction of listening to your favourite music like you've never heard it before,
You will hear things that were never there before, only they were always there, just never in your zone. From now on everything you
listen to will sound like the work of a world class recording engineer that has remastered, remixed thus bringing a new polished
clarity to your virgin like ears, a clarity that sits at the top of its game throughout the entire music spectrum.
That world class sound engineer was YOU.
First and foremost, my apologies for taking so long to reply - I haven't checked my comments on this video for a few days. I am flabbergasted and humbled by your narrative and compliments to me. I have received thanks before but never at this level. I am so pleased that you have experienced the type of results from my process that you have described. For someone so tuned in to music and how it should make them feel, to experience what you have described is gratifying, to say the least. Many thanks to you and best wishes for endless hours of listening pleasure.
Bob Robbins - My Speaker Setup
This was very worthwhile. I followed the procedure from the wall, one at a time. My speakers probably ended up within about 6-8" of where they were prior but the soundstage is better. The sweet spot is wider and it is overall more enjoyable. An inch or a couple degrees matters.
Yep. the truth is in the details. Enjoy your music!
Thank you sir! This is simply the best upgrade to my system. Brought the speakers closer together as you suggested for the slightly warmer sound i wanted and it worked wonderfully. What really did the magic was the rake and toe-in method. The vocals now sing beautifully, and my room is awash in room-filling music. When i close my eyes the speakers melt away. And yes the speaker placement is not perfectly symmetrical.
Excellent! Well done. Enjoy!
Ive just finished doing this setup and HOLY SH!T! You wasn’t kidding, ive got a crazy holographic soundstage thats huge, it feels like i could reach out and touch things. imaging is so precise and clean, bass is just right. Ive had my speakers set up pretty good over the years but this is worlds away from what im used to, that soundstage just made me laugh out loud with joy. My speakers are different distances from the front wall by roughly 3” with mild toe in at different angles to each other. Thankyou!!
That is fabulous news! Thanks for your post. I love hearing from people when they make the magic happen! Happy Listening and my hopes for more joyous laughter. And, you're welcome - tips are graciously accepted. 😁
I've had fantastic results with this. I was a skeptic when I first watched this a year ago, but Ballad of the Runaway Horse has been my go to with each new component upgrade, speaker upgrade, new DAC, etc. I've probably gone through this process 10 times, and used it to re-calibrate after small changes many more times. It never fails to impress me. It can be frustrating chasing the right placement (and there definitely isn't just one), but once you lock it in it is stunning.
I'm writing because I just refined the placement of my new full-range speakers after a few weeks of break in. I did this in a few nightly rounds, getting closer and closer to that smooth, sibilance-free, right-sized voice. And they sounded better and better each time. Tonight I got it right. I could tell I was close, but when it finally locked in, it was very evident. I went from critical listening mode to a dizzy feeling like I was falling into Jennifer's voice, like she was finally right there singing her heart out. It became very real, in other words. Not in terms of it sounding "clearer" or "more transparent". It's like Bob says... real and natural.
It takes a bit of obsession to find the right placement, and you have to listen very critically. But it truly does cascade into making everything else - techno or bluegrass, soft or booming - sound better and more natural.
Thank you so much for your statement, it's always so cool to hear from someone who has had success with this process. It is true it takes time and almost an obsessive frame of mind to get it right - but boy, is it worth it! Well done. Loved your comment on "falling into Jennifer's voice".
@@bobrobbins5652 Does the "Locking in" persist with other tracks and recordings too, or is it limited to some tracks or kind of music only? I've had the experience (not with your method) to have great sound for jazz but not so great for symphonic music. And after some rather extensive room treatment, everything sounds right, but with a lot of energy wasted. So , does your method guarantee consistent results throughout most of the recordings (save, perhaps some really bad ones)?
@@fullranger3435 Once the speakers are "locked-in", using both the song Sumiko recommended and the song I like to use, the speakers are "ready" for any type of music. Your system will reveal the bad stuff of inferior recordings and will allow for great recordings to be enjoyed to their full capabilities.
@@bobrobbins5652 Thank you for the quick response, I appreciate it. I'll make a try when I have some spare time.
I've been studying speaker placement for almost 2 years on utube with some success, but something you said about "speakers don't have to be lined up evenly" started me experimenting and I ended up with the most shockingly beautiful holographic immiging and sound stage I've ever heard.....I became part of live music, a bubble of airy three dimensional sound. The curious part is it only works with one of my needles, and I run 3 cartridges depending on the records I'm spinning......you can believe I've permanently taped the floors with the new speaker locations. P.s. the speaker locations are rather bizarre 😂.
It's very strange that the imaging "magic" only happens with one of your cartridges. But I am glad you got the results you described. Hopefully, the bizzare look of your speakers is not too visually distracting.
@@bobrobbins5652 .......yes, I thought so too. I suspect I'll have to set the speakers up specifically for the Benz cartridge...it's known for high detail and liquid vocals, but everything fell apart when I switched it in. the cartridge I set the system up with is a vintage Dennon 300 re-tipped with an elliptical.....it's wonderful. One thing I might mention is my favorite listening spot is in a corner of the room as I like a little xtra base and my system is running on bright tubes as I also prefer. The Glorious holographic sound and wonderful imaging is well worth the discordant speaker placement any day of the week 👌.
Bob, i just wanted to say thanks for putting this info out. Ive had success with trying your method. I can finally say i can stop moving my speakers around. The rake ankle is the cherry on top.
Glad you had success, Randi!
Hi Bob! Thank You So Much for your setup knowledge and Experiences! I tried and setup my two Homemade audiophile speakers, and I could not believe what I heard! " They Sound Fantastic, Thanks to You! " You are a Genius Bob!
Thank you, Albert! I'm glad you experienced such great results. I appreciate the genius comment as well. As Kevin Hart says - It's what I do!
I have seen other techniques in the past but his process caught my attention. Like most people, my environment wasn't built for the sole purpose of listening to music. The room isn't perfect, the dimensions are not ideal and I have a younger son so we have toys and furniture in places I would prefer not be. My system consists of Martin Logan 13A speakers, McIntosh mono blocks sourced by an Aurrender A10 music server all held together with Nordost Tyr 2 and Frey 2 cables. Listening to music is an addiction and one I happily feed so I invited Bob down to see if he can live up to the video. I will not go through everything he did as it is proprietary but the end result is fantastic. The simplest way to describe it is the sound seems more alive. My wife even is surprised on how much better it sounds. If you have been addicted to this hobby for more than 10 minutes you know that if your wife is happy with it, you did something right!
Thank you Bob!
Thank you, Patrick. I know I've done good work when the wife notices and comments on the quality of sound. You have a fabulous hi fi and a terrific family. Loved working with you.
Did the process to Simple setup with lintons in a difficult room. It was night and day difference. This is a must. Now going to do again as all the hardware is new and brokenin. Thank you sir. If not for the distance you would be already sitting here helping with the setup.
I will check Dirac after the setup and share my feels.
Thank you for your feedback. Glad things turned out well for you. Tips are graciously accepted. 😁
WOW. I just followed our tips, and this realy transformed my system. I thought I had it but now I know it was not the limit. I was always a little frustrated that the singer moved with me with the slightest movement. Now its like i can see a crisp and clear Image almost if I could see th instruments. Also I got uncomfortable after 1 hour or so. Now I am listening for 3 Hours (eyes closed) and dont know whre the time went. Thank you for sharing this.
You are very welcome - It's quite an amazing technique. I got to meet one of the co - inventors of it back in April here in Denver, I let him know he literally changed my audio life. Keep on rockin'!
the singer is supposed to move with you because you're modifying the distance between you and each speaker as you move around.. unless you position both L/R speakers close to each-other, how do you imagine that the sound coming from the distant speaker is going to be just as loud as the closer one -and also arrive at the same time?!?
with 2 distinct L/R speakers spaced horizontally apart, it's physically IMPOSSIBLE to maintain a central point illusion when changing the listening position. it's the physics' laws :}
in order to maintain that feat, as the distance between the listener and each speaker changes, the sound output of each speaker needs to be modified in accordance with the new position: the farther away sound source needs to be louder in relation to the closer speaker (which needs a delay synchronization); it's a well understood relation between the sound intensity and speed over a distance...
come on people, we should be past all this BS! :}
*speaker position is influential, but not what mr Bob is f talking about... read some papers or books for better understanding how sound propagates thru air, what reflections mean/do and how humans use hearing for locating the sound sources on the horizontal and vertical planes.
that is quite an amazing new info for me. i always had speakers perfectly alliened and symetrical but in my house it always feel that the voice is pull to the right and i didn't understand why! So this way to setup the speakers has been the revelation of the year! thank you so much :)
Now, that felling when you move your head and the voice stays in the center is a tricky one and that i was not capable to do...not yet...
I'm glad you've experienced positive results. Center image stability is quite difficult to achieve, sometimes seems like it will never happen, but it can.
Hi Bob, excellent work and superb knowledge. Never got my center image 100% right until you came along. Thanks a lot and all the best.
You are very welcome. Thanks for the positive feedback!
A big heartfelt thanks, Bob. I've just done a few quick tweaks here and there(tilted and moved back and forth a bit) and I'd say there is an improvement. I need to reconfigure a bit to lower my mains bass response and cut out the subs, then I will do the whole shebang.
I've pretty much always used the long wall; I've always liked the sound better despite the supposed proper short wall placement. Glad to see I had something going on there. My speakers were already tilted against the manufacture's proposed placement, too. They're tilted a lot more now, tho, hehe. I just didn't go far enough! May need to go even farther...
It's sad some people can't even give it a chance. I've been thinking about a new DAC and going with Dirac, but this promises to be what I was looking for without the added budget hit. I'm all over this.
Once again, a big thanks
Thanks for the positive feedback, I'm glad you've experienced good results.
this is the most informative stuff l ve heard before, thx
+richard carr Thanks for the compliment - Happy Listening!
Great experimenting in sound 🎶
I own Wilson Audio Yvette speakers, which I am immensely happy with. They are my first WA speakers and were setup following the WASP process.
I came across the Sumiko speaker positioning method, via this video, and was intrigued. As I am UK based so my only (realistic) option was to purchase Bob's setup guide and to ask him any questions via email. The 50 bucks does not just buy you a pdf (for a method that is freely available on the internet), it gives you access to Bob, which for me was invaluable in trying to implement the method remotely.
If I was US based I would not hesitate in getting Bob over to my home, for him to implement and for me to learn from.
So, does it work? Absolutely. Will it intuitively make sense to you? Mostly but in places you have to forget some old prejudices e.g. absolute symmetry between left and right speakers.
You have to allocate adequate time (a lot of time) and carry out each step methodically - with enough attention to detail. For me, it took several days, with breaks in between to rest my ears and my mind.
I used masking tape to mark my started position speaker placement, just in case I wanted to revert back.
My first pass was rushed, as I was eager to check whether the process works and was worth perusing. It was. BUT only when I slowed down and implement fully did I get to an OMG moment. I was amazed with the difference. So much so, I wanted to write this review.
The gate speaker needs much smaller adjustments, which take time. Although there are multiple bass-node positions for the anchor speaker, there is only one position (for each bass node) with the gate speaker. AND it is easy to miss it through rushing.
I’m not going to go into the detail of what I asked Bob during the process as this might play to people not wanting to bother with paying Bob his 50 bucks; instead getting what they need from his TH-cam video and reading reviews.
I am gobsmacked by the difference this method makes. Based on my experience, I would have no hesitation in recommending people see for themselves what difference this makes to their current system, before and above anything else (by way of upgrades).
Buy the guide and communicate with Bob on any specifics you have. Better still, pay him to come to your place and setup your speakers for you.
Method definitely works.
You need a lot of time!
Best lecture so far for me, what a trip ....
Thank you - seems there are a lot of conflicting reactions to my lecture. I appreciate your positive feedback.
@@bobrobbins5652 speaker placement is THE most important part to me now.....
You were right on the money on every part of the setup. It also taught me that changing gear or even cables you have to re-adjust the setup!. Truly fascinating! And if people don't want to listen, hey...-> their loss. You can't change stubborn or plain ignorance. You can try but it will cost energy and lots of it. People are strange , they depend on other people's words without even trying in real life. And even worse , they start arguing about technicalities without the experience ....so weirrrrrd
Thanks so much, and kudos from Holland :)
@@Projacked1 I agree that people are strange, and serious audiophiles are even stranger. Thank you for your positivity about what I do and the service I provide, it warms my heart. Mucho appreciato! As always - Happy Listening!
@@bobrobbins5652 Also very accurate when it comes to movies! I recommend placement changes with the eyes closed! I changed my speakers to Tannoy's (dual concentrics), total different ball-game for placement, now those are so accurate , it took me a while to figure out that last step. But man, the size of the sound is amazing
@@Projacked1 Movie sound can be quite startling and impressive - even out of just 2 speakers. George Lucas said he'd rather watch a movie on a 32-inch screen with great sound rather than on a 10-foot screen with mediocre sound. Sound engineers in the movie industry put in huge amounts of time and effort to get the sound right. Thanks for your recent story - I always enjoy hearing from you.
We need more of these videos!
Thank you!
Respect to Bob. He's still replying to comments on this 9 years after the fact. Im going to try this in a few different rooms, with varying equipment. If the results are there, I'll refer clients and installers to the website to make that $50 purchase. Should be an interesting few weeks...
Thank you so very much. I have never had anyone offer to help me in such a manner.
@@bobrobbins5652 If it works. It's a good thing for everyone involved in this weird industry we find ourselves in....
But don't thank me yet. Once I've thoroughly tested your approach, I may be your worst enemy. Lol.
@@bobrobbins5652If it works. It's a good thing for everyone involved in this weird industry we find ourselves in....
But don't thank me yet. Once I've thoroughly tested your approach, I may be your worst enemy. Lol.
@@bobrobbins5652 If it works. It's a good thing for everyone involved in this weird industry we find ourselves in....
But don't thank me yet. Once I've thoroughly tested your approach, I may be your worst enemy. Lol.
Hi Bob,this works both of my systems now sound fantastic,Elvis Presley is in the room with me,everything now sounds more live,cost to me, Time and a £9.00 Laser level, I'm very happy,i,m spreading the word to my mates, thankyou Bob.
Thanks for the message - I'm glad you got your systems singing!
The one encouraging thing I got out of this is speaker placement on the long wall. For me in my room it is the only way I can set them up
All right... After a few days of trails and errors I actually got the center locked in. The sensation of the floating head did happened and it has to do with the right size of the mouth, the vocals. In my case was a matter of moving the left speaker a few inches into the room, horizontally
Terrific! Glad you got things locked in. It's fun, isn't it?
@@bobrobbins5652 It sure is now, Bob! Thanks so much for your guidance
I found your talk to be very rational. Will definitely be trying this out, thanks.
this is p brilliant definitely going to try this out completely agree that tiny adjustments can make a massive difference but like you said without a set up plan it's just guess work
Great video. Can't wait to do this once the Christmas decorations are down.
Great seminar!
I think listen with your ears and let them determine is the way in the end. But the measuring and all that is really hard to just let go and disregard. I mean the technical aspect is in part some of the fun too. So I think mixing the ears with technical OCD stuff is the middle ground. Tbh I probably couldn't live with having the speakers standing asymmetrical even if I thought and knew it sounded the absolute best. But I could live with the speakers standing symmetrical and still have 95% of the asymmetrical sound quality.
I agree completely - Many audiophiles have OCD tendencies, and they are difficult to let go of completely. The asymmetrical look is usually very subtle - it isn't blatantly weird looking at all.
Wow ! Amazing advice
Thanks, Stephen - I appreciate the feedback'
You are very welcome indeed Bob , it all makes perfect sense . I'm putting together a listening room to house and listen to my collection of vintage HiFi which ive collected over some time now , what a fantastic hobby this is , its given me a lot of pleasure over the years ! Your approach enables the speakers to be fine tuned , something that has not been touched upon with great detail before, just like fine tuning a musical instrument . Thank you for sharing your great knowledge on this subject . Stephen
Thank you! Great seminar
+Francis Gross Glad you liked it - HiFi Rules!
@@bobrobbins5652 I just had to come back to this video (and I can't believe it's been six years!) and it has been my overall go to source for speaker placement. It is the most realistic, as I can't get the sound I prefer according to the advice of the manufacturer.
@@darthmaul33 Thanks for letting me know your appreciation. It's a cool process with fabulous, fun results.
@@darthmaul33 It is interesting that this process more often than not dramatically outperforms the manufacturer's instructions in their owner's manual. Gratifying, though.
Absolutely! Thank you
Hi,
How would you include a subwoofer once you have got the speakers in their correct position. Thank you
It's acoustically impossible to get the center imaged fixed at the center when the listener moves from the sweet spot unless a center channel is used. Sounds like BS to me...
Like Patrick Swayze said in "Road House" - opinions vary
It is possible, even without a center speaker.
I have GOT to try this now. Thanks for sharing!
+ocularis73 Take your time, listen with your heart, feel free to contact me via email or phone with comments or questions - best of luck! bob@myspeakersetup.com or (720)404-7200 - Mountain time
Bob Robbins
Thank you, sir. I will have a lot of questions when I finally get around to trying it. Your presentation was inspiring to say the least.
it helped me out a lot, Thanks Bob
Thank you Bob for this very informative video! Your method made my cheap (I mean really cheap - under $350 the whole) system achieve a much higher level. I thought only high quality audio sytems can introduce realistic stereo imaging, but now I know it is not true. You opened up a whole new world to me. I wish you all the best and please ignore those people who are not willing to take time to try your method, instead just BSing in the comments. They know nothing. Greetings from Hungary!
Thank you so much Norbert, I truly appreciate the positive feedback. I'm glad I helped you get the most out of your system.
All this comes down to Room Acoustics, that's what matters! All his steps in speaker position is to avoid sound bouncing on close walls/floor, if you treat your room with the right dampening and diffusers you will get the same but better effect, and a sweet spot should be very small and that is just how it should be.
Room treatments are very beneficial but they will not, by themselves, get rid of the dynamic anomalies and phase distortions that are the result of non optimized speaker placement. Doing both The "ARSP" process and room treatments is definitely the best way to go.
Bob Robbins I have an baffel wall and a full sound treated room and it is like you discribe the soundstages, I guess there several ways to deal with room interference and in general most hi-fi people like you said don't have optimal placement.
The benefits are far more than just the imaging and sound stage, even though that's what I focused on in my presentation. The naturalness of the sound, the music just sounding "right" is also a huge benefit.
I think Bob is perfectly right with his story, but it’s also about how important the setup is for a certain listener. I’ve got a nice €20.000 hifi setup and a weird room with different listening positions. The sound is ok, no sweet spots or something, but when I go to a live band the music comes from a PA system that isn’t properly setup, most speakers are at the sides of the podium, sometimes hanging at the ceiling etc. Same thing at a theater, concert hall, it isn’t perfect most of the time. But I guess when you have a special listening room with a listening position you can get it perfect like head phones for example, if you take the time to get the right angles of your speakers.
Bob is right. Speaker placement is everything. It took me 7 years to find the right placement for my PSB speakers. They used to sound like mud and bricks, but now I can actually envision performers on the stage and get their proper height and width, along with natural sounding vocals and properly positioned instruments.
+MuristekTV 7 years - Ouch! I'm pleased you've got your system locked in.
+Bob Robbins Hi Bob, thanks for replying. It took me 7 years because I was never fussy with speaker placement. I just let them sit in a less than optimal position. It just didn't matter to me that much, but I finally got really tired of the subpar performance of my really great speakers.
I bought my PSB speakers because everybody was raving about their sound. It turns out I never knew what they could do until I put some effort into their placement. I really think it takes some intelligence and maturity to realize that you can truly get much better performance out of your investment.
+MuristekTV Not to mention patience and an educated ear - PSBs are terrific - Enjoy!
I have a tweak. Put a long towel or long piece of cardboard under the speaker and have your helper pull it out as you listen and you will hear changes on the fly and the helper will be out the way the whole time. You won't believe the difference an inch makes.
Thanks for the suggestion, Great Idea - And sometimes it's a fraction of an inch.
This process is exactly the same as setting up and columnating or aligning your catadioptric telescopes two mirrors...You make or turn the "wavefront" of the light/sound coming into the aperture (your room) into a single wave front of light/sound perfectly hitting the eye(ear) at the same moment...and electrical--light and mechanical analogies/equations are the same...Remember this that Nicola Tesla was quoted as saying that "Everything is the Light" therefore everything electrical and mechanical (ALL MATTER!)
Cool perspective - Thanks!
Speaker placement is important, but the biggest factor of how good your system sounds is the ROOM. You have PRESSURE, REFLECTIONS and AMBIENT NOISE which are ALL producing distortions, phase problems, etc.
You want to hear more subtle passages in your system? LOWER the noise floor. The optimal SPL for ambient noise is around 30dB or less. What's the ambient noise floor of your room? The average is more in the mid, to high 40dB or even higher. There's one way to lower that noise floor and that's by building a BARRIER between your room and the outside world.
THEN, there are PRESSURE problems. The biggest and most audible are AXIAL room modes. Depending on the room dimensions, the amount of energy being produced, it's not uncommon to have peaks and nulls that are 6dB, 8dB, 10dB, and even as much as 20dB peaks and nulls. You can't eq your way out of those, and they are at different frequencies between 2 parallel wall surfaces, some are between the front and rear walls, some are between the side walls, and then floor to ceiling. You can't place your speakers around those peaks and nulls. You might place your speaker for one frequency, but there's always another frequency that will cause you to hear exaggerated or not at all.
How do you fix that? The best way is to design and build a completely new room where the walls, ceiling and even the floor is designed to absorb ALL of the problems at 100hz and below. Most rooms have Axial room modes STARTING at around 30hz to 50hz depending on the dimensions of your room. But these types of rooms just a new construction can cost 6 digits.
Then there are reflections, which is easily treated with open cell foam and treat about 70% surface coverage with a high quality open cell foam that has a good slope between 125hz and 500hz, that's the most critical.
Then to make your room open up and sound bigger, l typically that's accomplished with front and rear wall diffusion and the best is Quadratic, and you have to figure out the best Prime Sequence to use, have at least 70% surface coverage. The problem is that you HAVE to treat the other problems first, and you have to have long enough distances between the listening position and the diffusors so the diffused sound field can develop.
Here's a room that has all of this. the video shows the wall and ceiling construction. It has no Axial modes in the entire room. the ambient noise floor is about 28dB, and it's probably amongst the best designed and built rooms I've seen to date. The only thing I would add is more diffusion on the ceiling, but that would add a considerable $$, but that would make the room sound even bigger.
th-cam.com/video/eMLA5h0nh8s/w-d-xo.html
I completely agree that the room is a HUGE variable and contributer to how a hi-fi sounds.
Most people, however, have their hi-fis in a multi-use room, and cannot do what you suggest. They simply aren't willing to go through the expense, labor, and time to do what you describe.
That is what is so great about my technique - it optimizes the speakers' performance in the room AS IT IS, taking into account ALL the sonic quirks and idiosynchracies the room has.
I realize this may be hard to accept and/or believe, but EVERY person who has hired me could verify the results I achieve through this process.
Plus, I have lived with the benefits for over 20 years - I know it works.
@@bobrobbins5652 I don't doubt that people are happy with the results, but what is their experience with other rooms that have been treated? It took me 50 years until I found one company that makes their own treatment and actually even talks about treating Axial modes. I've never heard anyone prior even discuss Axial modes, their importance and how to treat. People just typically talk about standing waves or room modes, and their answer is sticking a "bass trap' in the corner.
But, you're right, most average people have a dual purpose room, one for listening to their stereo and to entertain guests where there are lots of chairs, tables, etc. and the layout isn't ideal. Yeah, I get it.
It's a shame that even with the mfg's, I don't think they have the best listening rooms they could get. I see a lot of short cuts, questionable material choices/design choices.
@@bobrobbins5652 well done Bob, I would love to turn one room into a listening space but what about having a fire place, a table to serve some drinks, a TV, furniture to allow my friends to enjoy the music. Oh, that is right, we live in a home with people to socialise with. How about we make the most of that room and find a way to get the best from the sound system we already own. Hmmm, the RSP method. Love it.
Jump to 18:09 to see when the video starts.
Yes, twenty mins of BS
I was so glad he actually got to it. "Do you want 45 more mins of an ad? Or do you want to learn?"LOL. We want knowledge please. Great info though!
Doesnt matter how it looks but how it sounds.. briljant
thank's very much for your advice..
Are there placements that you avoid? After doing this the first time I ended up with the anchor speaker equidistant from the side and rear wall (1m (3'3") measured from the tweeter). This is traditionally a no no. Thanks for continuing to answer questions 5 years later!
I haven't yet found any placements to avoid, although I try not to schedule sets in rooms that are too small or cluttered. One thing I do suggest over and over is to avoid the temptation to measure distances. If the speaker ends up where it sounds wonderful, it doesn't matter what the measurements are. What matters is how the speakers "play" the room, and how they work together to make music.
@@bobrobbins5652 Great. In an L shaped room would you normally expect the speaker facing the open part of the room (where the wall behind the seating position is further back) to be closer to the rear wall?
@@ryanclements6031 Actually, the exact opposite would be the norm. With less of an early reflection, the speaker on that side would need to be closer to you.
So, the time has come to make a ridiculous observation. As you can see from the number of views above, since this video originally posted in January of 2015, over 82,000 people have watched it. As of today, less than 2 dozen people have hired me to set up their speakers using this technique. Allow me to repeat that - less than 2 dozen people have hired me!
That breaks my heart. This setup technique is the single most effective and transformative thing you can do to allow your hi-fi system to perform up to its' full potential. I see dozens of photos of peoples' systems on AGons Virtual Systems page every week that I know I could help, yet essentially no one takes advantage of my service.
The benefits of this setup technique are not just about imaging excellence - in the end, there is simply a "rightness" about the sound, a coherency, and naturalness to the overall tonal balance of what you hear. It allows you to be immersed in your music like you never have been before.
Instead of spending multiple thousands of dollars on wire, fuses, and hi-fi knick-knacks that improve things a little, bring me to your home and allow me to make your hi-fi truly "sing" as it never has before - once and for all.
How do we contact you
Hey Bob, I wanted to comment on this situation first. I didn't hear a pitch to sell your services but instead a generous, thoughtful person who was prepared to debunk main theory and behaviour. And it seems you shared so much information that most people watching this would give it a go. I read through most of the comments and laugh at those who think your talking shit. Just give it a try - it's free. I can see that some will mis-interpret your enthusiastic claim. But kept in context I know you are correct. The room and how you place speakers can potentially achieve the greatest gain. I say potential because some of us have already started experimenting with speakers on the long wall, out from the wall, different widths etc. But the real gain is obtained using your approach. My question that doesn't need an answer is - what made you think this video would generate calls to use your services? In my opinion your video has been a big success but of course not in the way you may have intended or preferred. Re: my feedback on the method, all I can say is t h a n k y o u. I have researched speaker placement and room acoustics this last 6 months and did not really want to modify or specialise a room in my home or follow other methods that are based on pure measurement. You have provided what I needed. Like some have stated, my speakers are not that far from my initial setup where I did get an OK sound stage and depth. Of course, now I know how to achieve a better result - use my heart, follow the RSP method and enjoy the music.
Hi Bob, thank you for the video. I find it really inspiring!
I do have a question if you don't mind. I am having difficulty looking for position that the bass note would stand out (or resonance with the room?) My speakers are a pair of ATC SCM11, so it's not a full range floor stander. Does that means it's more difficult to use your method? or do I just have to turn the volume louder?
Sorry to take so long to reply to you - I guess I need to check this comment section more often. With smaller speakers, you will have to turn it up louder than you usually listen to hear when the bass kicks in and really works with the room. Just be sure not to damage your speakers or electronics!
44:18 dude that is CRAZY. I just got done moving my speakers trying to find a good spot. One speaker is in a corner and the other speaker is like 8 feet from it’s side wall. Sure enough, the speaker that is in the corner ended up further into the room just like you said.
Hopefully, you are pleased with the results. As I always say - Happy Listening!
Thanks bob for yours explanation and sharing, I followed your step and get a magnificent sound 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
You are very welcome - Glad you got good results.
Play it LOUD, for HOURS??
Boy my neighbors are gonna love me!
Not stupid loud, just loud enough for the bass to be full-bodied
May be a stupid question but need clarification.
1.When he refers to setting the anchor by starting with the left speaker, does he mean that the right speaker should be disabled and producing NO sound while listening only to the left speakers reaction to movements in the room ?
2. Does this setup work for side firing woofers as in the Audio Physics Virgo's
1. Both speakers will be playing all the time.
Side firing woofers should fire out, away from each other. If they are on both sides, then it doesn't matter
Thanks all for the replies.
Was able to achieve outstanding imaging and soundstage beyond the speakers but still fighting the head in a vise problem ( moving off center results in the vocalist moving to the side I move toward ) What parameter is responsible for this ?
I've tried everything from toe in, distance between speakers, listening position and distance from rear wall but nothing helps.
@@Bigirondoug Center image drift is very difficult to get completely rid of. If, when you move your head to the left and the center image moves with you, it means the left speaker is VERY SLIGHTLY too close to you in relation to the right speaker. Move the left speaker away from you in very small increments until the problem is eliminated or at least minimized. This should not affect the center image lock, if it does, you've gone too far. Ditto for the right speaker. Only adjust one speaker to solve the problem, either one is fine.
@@bobrobbins5652 Thank you Bob for the replies I truly appreciate your input, and will try some more fine tuning tonight.
I may have missed this part but in the first step when adjusting the bass (distance from front wall) should we have both speakers playing or just the one we are moving backwards and forwards?
Sorry for taking so long to reply - Both speakers playing is best, although you can face one of them away from you if you want.
Fantastic video!!
Bob, not sure if you’re still responding to this video, but you seem to have an idea of how “the Ballad” was recorded. I’ve tried to get my speakers situated, but I can’t tell if I’m struggling with the “big voice” effect, or if I’m at the “headphones”point. In my preferred listening location and surrounding seats it sounds like I’m sitting at a front-center table at a medium-size jazz club. Clean sound, centered throughout, spacious, just up-close and personal. Seems like the result of a mic’d recording, as opposed to a live recording from a single mic in the room. Thoughts?
Sorry for taking so long to reply. I get so few comments to this video, I've fallen out the habit of checking on a regular basis.
Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, this is a studio recording, with very simple microphone setup, but I don't know how many mics. Jennifer is definitely dead center, and Rob Wasserman is just behind her, and a tiny bit to her right, with the upright bass leaning slightly to the right.
@@bobrobbins5652, thanks for replying. I ended up swapping my speakers right & left to place the tweeter in the center since the cabinets are a non-linear design and the tweeters are now in the upper inside corner. After feeling like it was dialed in pretty well, we watched a movie and the high range of vocals fell off (or flew off) with some weird effects on the S's and other high-frequency consonants. Hoping that centering those tweeters more will allow them to be inside the zone instead of outside.
Hi,
I am writing from Johannesburg South Africa.
I have tried to set up my speakers with the Master Set system and so far have spent about 45 minutes trying to do so. I am using B&W 685 S2 speakers and a Rotel RA05ED amplifier [40 W]. My listening area is a room, 6m wide by 4.5 m deep joined to a dining room, 6m wide by 3.5m deep separated only in part by a 2.5m wall behind the listening position. I am finding it a little bit complicated and have a few questions I hope you are willing to answer:
1. Is my room too big for the system to work? In other words, will my speakers and amplifier have enough power and a movement to do the job?
2. Is there a way to objectively hear somehow what I am listening for in the base? For example if I listened to the song on Apple AirPods on Apple Music with the EQ set on a particular setting, for example Bass Booster, would that give me an idea of the correct song?
4. Does it help to turn the treble knob on the amplifier down while listening for the base or will that mess things up?
5. My room has a glass sliding door to one side and an ordinary door on the other. Should they be closed, open or is it immaterial?
6. Finally, I have a glass table that must stay in the room. Should it be left uncovered while doing the set up?
Thank you so much?
This is a link to a sketch of my room: mega.nz/file/IGp2gRLK#1BtFuzixmS9n2HDe73HpLGE_Z2wck2SmP1y_zaHYVeo
If the room is very small 9ft with 15ft i can place the speaker on the long wall?
Long wall placement would be possible, however compromises would have to be made as far as distance apart and distance into the room. Short wall would allow for your listening seat to be a better distance from the speakers, but getting the sound to go "beyond the boundaries" would be almost impossible to achieve.
I've just bought your guide. Usefull information.
I have an openbaffle with full range driver on each and for the moment. Lii audio F-12. Sound excellent. But my bass need boost. Before the configuration do I need to equalize with dsp for best result, or just keep the speaker as it, no equalize .
For my right speaker. I have a door behind. Does I need to keep it close or open for the setup ?.
My room is almost 13 feet by 10 feet. I use the long side for wide possibility and less side wall reflection. Does it will be a better option to go with the short wall ?
This is a small room used for my music, TV and PC and I think if my speaker is too close from listening position then this will be deceiving. I hope I can do excellent result. I'm going to try this tomorrow.
Can I wait to place my acoustic panel (absorber) before the setup is done, or the acoustic panel must be there before setup ?
I usually recommend waiting until after the set is done before doing DSP.
Close the door behind the right speaker
10 X 13 is quite small - Your main focus should be proper tonality and image specificity. Large, expansive sound will be VERY limited just because of room dimensions, Either wall can be used - whichever works for the logistics and use of the room.
Put the panel in place first - you should do the set so the room is how it will be when listening.
The part about center image staying still even if you move must be bullshit. Just because speakers are optimally placed doesn't make laws of physics go away. If you move closer to one speaker it's going to sound louder and move the image.
I've said this before to other people who don't believe in what I do - just because you haven't heard what I describe doesn't mean it can't happen. I can be 8 feet to the right of my right speaker, and my hi fi still creates the illusion of a locked in and properly sized center image. Sorry you've never experienced this - but it is NOT BULLSHIT.
this doesnt make any sense. when you get closer to one speaker that fires at the same SPL it will change middle phantom image. When singer signs she is only 1 sound source of sound instead of 2.
I agree the singer is just one source, but both speakers reproduce the sound of his/her voice. That's why, when the speakers are optimally set, the phantom center image remains true.
It’s all snake oil. What you’re hearing is what will ALWAYS happen. It’s physics.
I'm trying this and it's a hell on earth, for now 3 attempts, hours of positioning with different results, second attempt is better sounding then my original position of speakers, but no audio Nirvana, if i lean head to right Jennifer move with me, same with other side, rake angle does nothing, image is still down (speakers almost fall how angle was tilt), In new attempt i can move left speaker anywhere and hear no difference, few inches forward and backward bass sound same to me. And yes i hate that Jennifer song enough 🤣 My guess is i never achieve what Bob says 😪 But still thanks for this guide...
Hi. Thanks for the advice. Do you use Ballad to set up and Tootie to check or Tootie to set up? Thanks. Any other to use? Thanks
Hi Joffie - Sorry to take so long to reply. I actually use Ballad to set bass and center image placement, then Tootie for image height and musician placement, and when things go really well, sound beyond the speakers' boundaries.
It isn't clear for me if also the distances from the speakers to the centre, not only the toe in, may be different. It may cause difference in the time travelling of sound?
What it allows for is so the speakers work with the room, taking into account all the existing furnishings, etc. The measurements don't matter! Put away your tape measure and listen with your heart. You'll be able to tell when it is right!
Hi Everybody. Hi Bob. I have few questions as I am not a native English not all I understood. SO if possible please answer few questions. Doing first step means moving speakers forward inch by inch (or shorter) should I move amp balance fully LEFT only for left speaker or both at the same level. Than what you mean by boom at best point/position. What should I expect from bass? Just the best subjective sound or whatever interference/whatever effect, etc. Rest is more than less clear for me with rotating and leaning but first step is unclear. Thx in advance for all advice/ Marek/Poland EU.
My apologies for taking so long to reply.
Leave your balance control centered when doing the first step. You can make larger movements of the first speaker to begin, then smaller movements after the speaker is into the room about a half meter or so.
Bass is difficult to describe - but what you are listening for is when the bass has the best of the 3 characteristics - linearity (a clear definition of all the notes), extension ( so the low notes are very full bodied and deep). and output (so there is plenty of bass). Plus, listen for a smooth naturalness to the vocal - you don't want any shrillness or "shoutiness" to her singing.
@@bobrobbins5652 Thank you. Will try sooner or later. My room is rather small 6x4 m maybe less with one wall (long one at 40 deg (roof) so not easy I guess.
I bought speakers from Listen up in Denver. I still have them.
They carry great products - what speakers do you have?
Exellent
I wonder if this technique applies to omni-directional speakers like Ohm or the former Mirage speakers?
I have not yet done the set with omnis. I have done open baffle (Spatial Audio) with terrific results. And dipoles (Martin Logan) worked great also. I have yet to find speakers whose sound quality didn't dramatically improve using this technique.
I’m going to give this a try, but I’m having a really hard time believing in the method with the lack of explanation and attention paid to the starting seating position since it makes such a profound difference in the end result.
Looking back on this , I did neglect mentioning the starting seating position. Most listeners, however, already have their room set up as they are going to use it for listening, and most are unwilling or unable to change the whole layout of the room. This setup technique works for the room AS IT IS, without having to make huge changes in anything, except for the location and positioning of the speakers.
Try not to over think it, and go through the proces based on your current listening position - I think you'll be quite pleased with the results.
Only question I have, with pulling the speaker from the wall to find the most statisfying bass, is do you pull it, go back to listening position, listen, then go back to the speaker, pull it an inch again, go back to the listening position again? Or do you just pull it and listen while holding the speaker, sort of?
honestly - at this volume the bass sounds okay at every position, but all the high notes, especially the violins, are nearing cringeworthy territory at this volume at all positions.
If you are doing this alone, listen not only to the bass but also to the tonal characteristic of the vocal. When the bass has articulation and the vocal is not cringeworthy, that's the best location. You can either do the listening as you pull the speaker, or go back and forth from your listening position.
Would i have to reset my speakers for different music genres and or recordings or once I've set it up i can expect to experience optimum sound quality everytime i play music regardless.
Once the speakers are set, all genres of music benefit.
Would this work in a small room measuring 14.1 x 10.6 x 10.3 feet (4.3 x 3.25 x 3.15m LxWxH)? Fwiw, the speakers are Tannoy Eatons and they go down to 40hz so setting them up along the long wall as recommended by the RSP method seems counterintuitive. Thanks.
As small as your room is, you may be better off setting the speakers on the short wall. The trade-off is the effect of the sound going beyond the boundaries set by the speakers, but in such a small room, there wouldn't be that much of that anyway.
@@bobrobbins5652 Thanks, Bob, I really appreciate your taking the time to reply. I've had the Tannoys for about a month now and I'm beginning to think they're just too big for my room as the place where they work best involves having one of the speakers just in front of the living room door. Soundwise, it's great and probably as good as it gets without extensive room treatment and such like - I've pretty much tried every other position - but aesthetically and practically, it feels like a pyrrhic victory, and a pyrrhic victory, sadly, is no victory at all. The speakers have so much potential but I'm not sure my room will ever play ball, as it were. Regardless, thanks again for taking the time to reply :) Derek
do you start with a set listening seat location? equilateral triangle - adjust the seat to that?
Wherever you have your "preferred" listening position - have the speakers opposite that and spaced a logical amount apart. Planar speakers are more affected by width apart than "box" speakers are for best bass response. The equilateral triangle thing is not that critical, but it is a decent starting point. My speakers at home ended up with the right speaker nearly 3 inches further away from my listening position due to room acoustics and following the setup process.
I realize this is a very old video but I have been trying to figure out your system for home theater. I took all the delay from my front two speakers but Im confused on the rest. Do I just take a distance measurement from my seat to center channel and use that as center delay and keep the fronts with no delay? Thanks for your help if you happen to read this.
Measure the distance from your viewing position to the fronts. Then do the same for the center. The difference between these two measurements should be small, maybe 2-3 inches at most. Let's say it's 2. That's the delay you need to put on the center, as it is usually closer to you than the fronts.
@@bobrobbins5652 Thanks
This is about the best video on speaker setup ive ever seen. Just have one question as you said toe in doesnt need to be the same for both speakers but does that also apply to time and phase aligned speakers?
Yes, very much so. The dispersion patterns of the speakers plus how they "play the room" usually causes the speakers to be toed-in differently from each other.
I'm trying to achieve locked center for years, never managed to do so. You move your head 10 cm to the side and singer moves like 50-100 cm, I hate it and can't enjoy music as much as I would like to. Speaker positioning is a nightmare. There is always something wrong, either balance or bass or imaging or tonality or trebles. The bigger speakers the more problems you get. Headphones are sooo much easier :(
Center image stability is the hardest "effect" to achieve - some speaker/room combinations won't let it happen. Sometimes a 1mm adjustment is all that is needed - it's difficult and takes great patience.
It’s pure physics. It’s supposed to do that. Don’t buy the snake oil.
If it makes you happy you should do it. I personally think if moving the speakers so accurately can make such massive differences and reflected sound can be heard by humans so easily but strangely once you have them in place you can walk round the room and the central image stays still etc( even sounds better from the garage😱🤔🙂😂) does not make sense. It’s like applying one law of physics for the point of sound and a different one for the point of listening. If you move around the room all reflections and even the point of sound will change in relation to the listener. It’s just a little silly. I will add that I know nothing so I’m just sounding off😀 I do believe you can change the sound by speaker placement for sure but I am sceptical about this. I hope this works for you if you try it though👍
I'm ready to give it a go!. Have you had successful setups with speakers more than 3 feet from the front wall? One of my apartment columns is right behind the anchor speaker and I can't place it any closer than 3 feet. I do have them setup against the long wall and they are perfectly centered though. I really want this to work!!!
Definitely yes! The further into the room the speakers are, the better the illusion of depth of image will be. Good Luck!
Hello Bob, very interesting presentation. I was wondering if you could give me a quick tip: I face some challenging issues due to reflections: my right wall is a big glass window 10 feet from the speaker; my left wall is 16 feet from the speaker. I'm aware that the window is a big issue and that the different distances between the speakers and wall dont help. My question is: when face with a big glass window as mine, should you increase the toe-in of that speaker to attenuate first reflections? if so, I assume you should not toe-in the other speaker? Thank you advance!
I am so sorry for not replying to you - I don't check in on this comment section as often as I should. With your room, the speaker neat to the window should be not as far into the room as the other speaker, because it reflects so much and the sound arrives at your ears sooner than the other speaker. Toe - in of that speaker (near the window) is hard to predict, you'll just have to experiment with it to get the center image locked in and sized properly.
I really love the idea of this, however for the life of me I have never been able to set up any of the speakers that I have owned so that the centre image stays centred no matter where I move!!
Center image stability is the most difficult "effect" to achieve - some speakers/room combinations will not allow it to happen. Sometimes an adjustment of less than 1mm is all that is needed, but it's impossible to predict in which direction the adjustment is necessary.
So I've got my speakers set up against the long wall and I happen to have good symmetry from side to side, I've always thought it had to be the other way round, now it turns out it's the best way to place them? I'm confused!
Yes, long wall placement is best, and if they have good symmetry that is fine.
Well I guess I better get to work then! Thank you so much for replying.
Hi Bob, I really enjoyed this very informative talk, it really opened up my eyes (or rather my ears) to try a different approach with speaker placement. I do have a question regarding my own setup: how would you apply these rules to a three-way sound system? I'm thinking of expanding my sound system to two bass cabinets, two mid/hi-range speakers and one bullet tweeter array for the very high frequencies on the ceiling firing in 4 directions (towards the north, east, south and west walls). The room I'm thinking of putting it in is a rectangular room of 4 x 3 meters, or 13.12 x 9.84 feet in length and width. I'm aiming for a warm but clear sound, with strong bass response so bass-heavy electronic music won't sound 'weak'.
Sorry if this is a complicated question to answer, I'm just wondering what sort of things i need to pay attention to with such a three-way system.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but my setup technique only works with conventional speakers - either cabinet or planar. They can't be disconnected to each other or in separate pieces. The only exception would be a speaker like the Gershman Black Swan. Any speakers that are wall mounted don't work with this process. I guess you could try to do the setup with the bass cabinets first, then blend in the mid/hi range units later, but the omni-directional super tweeters in my opinion should not be utilized at all. My setup is about image specificity and accuracy, not sending sound all over the room, only creating the illusion that the sound is very spacious and spread out.
Ah i see, that makes total sense. Maybe I'll just mess about with my dad's old Magnepan speakers before i expand my system even more, maybe they'll give me some nice results. Although i've heard they might sound a little too 'flat' for bass-heavy music.
Thanks anyway for your reply. I keep coming back to this video because the talk is just too enjoyable to not watch. You're a really good speaker (no pun intended).
Glad you like the video, that was a very enjoyable day for me. I appreciate the compliment.
Got a question bob, my room on the right side is open with no wall would the right speaker need to come closer to listen position? Or back to the wall more?. Thanks
Closer, because the sound has nothing to reflect off of so it takes a little longer to get to your ears. Probably not a lot closer - pay close attention to center image location, that will determine when it's right.
Thank you bob ill have a play around. I got the center image very good but the bass is lacking due of my open house.
If you feel the bass is lacking, you may have to start all over to find an optimum place for the anchor speaker.
so just out of interest what are your speakers you use at home ?
I have a pair of Escalante Designs Pinyon monitors paired with a REL Stadium 3 sub. The speakers on on stands, lead-shot filled, not sure of the brand.
How should i set up my speakers for Trance music , or Techno , or where to placea Mono speaker , and by the way my girlfriend is not called Jenifer , if i call her that im in a trouble , im confused
It doesn't matter what type of music - the setup technique described in this video works for all. A mono speaker should be brought into the room as described for the first of 2 stereo speakers - slowly from against the wall until a good bass mode is found and where the vocal doesn't "shout" at you. Your girlfriend comment makes no sense to me. If you tire of having to keep going back to the video to follow the steps, order the Setup Guide by sending $50 US through PayPal to bob@myspeakersetup.com
Jennifer is a joke , doesn't matter , sure speaker placement should be " one with the Room " but my experience is near field where it doesn't matter, best sound i heard is speakers glued like head phones to my head , or mono where it also doesn't matter , or head phones ,even when i set speakers up correctly, man the music is low quality , my room is a box , a bad box , rings at 100hz or around and harmonics , so there are bigger problems , Sound coming from Studios is garbage to start with , sound carrier is digital MP3 , distortion as high as 20-30% THD , most speakers are too small due to price so they sound boomy , where should i stop , endless list of problems , that is the source of my cynicism if you can understand that . On the other hand i was also educated in electrostatics , i should work in same field as you so i respect waht you do and there is off course place for that , but i never expected to do speaker placement for common folk , i expected to do that for Venues , large facility's , industry, in talks like this i would mention those problem , be more realistic . So im not saying anything you say is not correct , its fine , im just explaining where my cynicism comes from . I would be happy if i had problems like "singer stereo imaging " . in reality im happy if my singer's voice is not distorting on transients due to Studio Compression and bad digital sound carrier
It's too bad your room is so difficult - I've done speaker sets in rooms that were essentially cubes with surprisingly good results. I can't quite agree with you regarding the high distortion levels in recorded music - it certainly is not what I experience at home. I feel a little sorry for you - with you embracing the severe negative attitude you have towards music at home, I believe you will never hear your hi fi live up to its' potential - you know what they say - Attitude is Everything! Negative thoughts create negative results - if you believe good sound will never or can't happen in your room - you're right.
I know its not your experience i see that but that doesnt mean its not realistic experience , and that you shouldn't listen , like i listened to you , i didnt say that you said anything wrong , I jsut add stuff and im not making it up , its what i heard , took a lot of work to open these ears im not born with it , what i talk about is what you will find in 99% of places where music is heard , including here , things like your sound here , lots of problems . What should i do , turn you off , not listen . Does this sound good on your system ? Come on , there are big problems , one im focused on is compression , dynamics and sound carrier , i was thinking of all ppl that you will get that , but looks like not
Bob this is a fantastic video and I was quite surprised how accurately I have positioned my home speakers to ge that more life like sound. I am using a Cayin A50T Tube Amp, A rega Rp3 with Denon DL-110 MC and monitor Audio Silver RX2. I have had friends come over for dinner and listen to vinyl and not want to leave. the LP I have of "Ella Sings the Gershwing Song" book sounds like I was there with her, the sound is warm and enveloping. I can listen for hours without getting listening fatigue or want to tear my hair out. Also I liked your point about how when you move the vocalist doesn't move with you and that is so true, I guess it's kind of like the Doppler effect the further you move from the sound source the fainter it becomes. So when you move from your favourite listening spot(sweet spot) the vocalist doesn't move with you and that's certainly how it is at home for me. Great Great video.
I'm glad you've had such excellent results - I'll add your name to the list of believers - thank you for letting me know your success story.
Hi Bob I have a problem that's driving me crazy. I have the center image set when sitting in the sweet spot and also when I sit to the left the center image is still solid. But when I sit to the right even just a little bit the center image shifts that way. Any tips or advice? Thanks.
If you make a very small adjustment moving the right speaker back away from you, it should not affect the center image accuracy, but should solve the image moving to the right when you do. And I mean a very small adjustment, probably less than 1/4 inch.
Bob Robbins thanks a lot sir you are the man! Happy new year.
You're welcome - nice to know I'm THE MAN
Will this work for home theater set ups?
It lays down a solid foundation for theater sound. Once the 2 mains are dialed in, then the rest of the speakers can be placed, adjusted, and the time delays and volumes for all the surrounds and the center can be completed. The goal is to not be able to audibly tell where ANY of the speakers are.
@@bobrobbins5652 thank you very much.
@@JustinHEMI05 You're welcome
I don't care if its natural or not, I think a good stereo image is awesome and colorful! ALL SOUND RECORDINGS are fake anyway! All the processes that go on to reproduce sound! Might as well have it sound beautiful!
Correct - a - Mundo! Hi-Fi should be fun, and an expansive image is exactly that!
@@bobrobbins5652 yez sirrrr!
this guy offers no real info on how our hearing localization works...
we use the differences between the arrival of a sound wave at each ear (Interaural time difference (ITD)) and the intensity of that sound relative to each ear (Interaural level difference (ILD))
for left-right (horizontal) localization, depending on the frequencies of the sounds... It CAN be done with 2 speakers and is depended of the listening position.
But how about the vertical/up-down axis?
a sound originating in front of us and 10 ft height arrives at both ears at the same time and same intensity (so the ITD is zero, in this case ILD is also zero); so it HAS to be a different mechanism than ITD and ILD for decoding vertical localization... hint: it CAN'T be reproduced with 2 speakers. feel free to search 'how do humans perform vertical sound localization' for some fascinating info and also in order to appreciate how much BS this hour long video contains...
* what amazes me is that from all these people no one asked about the vertical localization BS he's been faking to understand or share... @29:35 he "can visualize that the cymbals are above the snare which is above the kick" talking about the drums. that's NOT how it works. omg dude, give us a break :}
** also, rake angle has nothing to do with positioning the height of the 'sound stage'. it that were the case, one would have to point the speakers down in order to mimic a higher sound stage, that would be the proper angle of incidence..
imagine this: if the sound waves were light waves, how would you position a flashlight to shine from a higher point? elevate it and point is downwards, right? but in NO case put it on the floor and point it upwards, that would lower the 'sound stage'. like omg, this 'lecture' is too funny to be taken seriously..:}:}
Here's my challenge to you - Either purchase my Setup Document, use it on your system to experience this yourself, or hire me to come to your home and have me perform this process with your hi fi. The only way to convince overly analytical, left-brained audio guys like you who are locked into their belief systems is to have you experience the results of this setup technique first hand. Music and how it makes us feel when it is reproduced with naturalness and true emotional content is the exact opposite of scientific measurements and the laws of physics. I experience the exact same things I described in this video every day when I crank up my hi fi - and I'm sorry you never have and are so close-minded that you never will.
@@bobrobbins5652 here's my challenge: post a 30 sec video showing that by moving only 2ft left and right while 2kHz is playing in your listening room, a stereo mic captures the same sound intensity on the L/R channels. I'll both buy your Setup Document and send a gift card same value as my room's sound treatment...
I think you're the one with a belief system in place since one needs to believe you without any material/numerical proof.
PS: I do believe that a sound system improves dramatically when great consideration is given to the speaker positioning but that alone can't achieve what you're suggesting.
PLUS, using a song that doesn't contain ALL the notes can't let you know that you positioned your speakers in a spot where a different note in a different song is being "cancelled". (Cancellation ALWAYS occurs at 1/4 the wavelength from your wall, regardless of the phase of the wave hitting the wall. )
@@duroxkilo I've said it before and I'll say it again - It doesn't matter how it measures, it matters how it sounds! I don't listen to noise through my hi fi, I listen to music! The complex and dynamic nature of music is a main contributing factor as to why this setup technique works. Name me a song that has all the notes. I won't be making your requested video - it would be a waste of time and effort, as the results would be irrelevant as it pertains to music. Final statement - end of story.
@@bobrobbins5652 it DOES matter how it measures because 'fi' stands for fidelity.
it's not all about the measurements, it's about how it sounds, and that's the only thing I can appreciate about your approach compared to the nut-cases we meet in this hobby...
in your case particularly it matters if the measurements fluctuate as you change your listening position... that would mean we can hear those changes.
you won't do a video proof because you know that the mic will pick up more of the right speaker when you move to the right and we would actually hear it in our headphones too... meaning the 'singer' does move from the central position as you move around...
that's my point, a song doesn't cover all the notes, and notes not present in one song are present in others. BUT you calibrated your system using ONE song.
I appreciate your interaction but pls don't misunderstand my motives: I'm not trying to educate you (I'm sure you're aware of your own BS research). It's for other people who are actually trying to understand how things work... wish you all, all the best.
PS
1.making a 30 sec video, no costs involved, takes about as long as your previous reply.
2.a single sine wave is not noise. pink noise is noise. :}
3.do you understand now why a single sound source (such as a speaker) can't give your ears/brain enough information about the vertical static position of the sound source in the recording?
What you say makes sense to me if the room has no ceiling. But we have one. Rake is going to give you (presumably) more sound intensity from the ceiling reflection?
I am not claiming the method works I haven't tried the method yet so I'm neutral til I give it a shot. Just saying that I'm not convinced you've proven it definitely doesn't work. That said I'm glad you brought up the vertical and how different it is as it made me think more.
This might have been the way to do it back in the good ole days. Luckelly today we have affordable measuring equipment and software.
Measurements don't matter - our sense of hearing isn't based on them, it's based on how our ears are pressurized. Software can't fix what goes against the laws of physics. Plus, if what you say is right - why did Wilson Audio develop and manufacture The Chronosonic Master loudspeaker, with all it's capabilities?
@@bobrobbins5652 Sorry, but you are wrong. You don't just measure pressurization. Actually the description for the Cronosonic can give you an idea of what other data you can get from a measurement. Your method might be great for people just getting in to audio and isn't far from the methods we all used up until the the early 00s. Now however there are free software like REW and cheap calibrated mics which can give you a pretty accurate reading of your room, (which Wilson didn't design). It's great that you help people with their basic setup, but that is all it is...basic.
@@absoluttaudiofilt3229 I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree - my sets of Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage and Focal Utopia Maestros were far from "basic" - as the customers I did them for will attest. Plus, I don't measure anything, my ears are the only tool I need (except for a laser level).
@@bobrobbins5652 No prob. :) As long as we enjoy the prosess, result and music it doesn't matter if we disagree. Just got a set of Dynaudio Evidence Platinum last weekend and are in a happy place at the moment. Nice talking to you!
@@absoluttaudiofilt3229 Those are some serious speakers - let me know if you want to hire me to set them up for you after they are broken in :)
For me make magic, thanks
Glad to hear it.
do i need a very expensive system for this to work.
No, not at all. I've done set ups with lower level Zu Audio and B&W speakers with excellent results. You just can't have wall mount or in wall speakers.
Thank ww38.you.so my.proac and tp 60 would be fine.
Sure - without a doubt. ProAcs are a very good product
Thanks again
27:25 Rake angle
I still don't know how to do it.
You can always hire me to do it for you. My work is fully guaranteed.
When moving your head from center position, something very annoying happens - comb filtering, because of the two sources arriving at different time intervals. This is unbeatable, so no going around that. Can't beat physics.
OK - then why is my center image properly locked in place and floating in space right where it belongs even if I stand and listen 10 feet to the right of my right speaker in line with my preferred listening position?
I found that this comb-filtering at high frequencies is easily heard if we use pink noise as signal. Then by moving the head slowly left to right, the sound changes, mostly in the higher register. Great presentation by the way. You've presented a protocol, for achieving the best sound by setting up the equipment right.
This "comb filtering" is done by phase noncoherences. That problem is known to me too for a many years. It is source of limited accuracy in stereo on reason is that we use two ears positioned in distance. In fact there is no even "sweet spot" for humans at all. The one blessed by audiophiles so often :). Anyone may see my www web diysound.eu to see the way which as in my tests supress that efect. Just click on "Stereo Sound Image (size and clarity) Improvement by author". You will find there also the background of operation. If You follow my suggestions there will be almost no "comb filtering" an in there will be stability of listening. Anyway it is only one of countless obstacles in reality in audio with mastering of recordings at priority .
I agree that you can't beat physics, that is what The Art of Rational Speaker Placement is based on. Call me crazy, but I don't listen to pink noise through my hi fi, I listen to music! Our sense of hearing is sensitive and accurate enough that when combined with the properly performed setup technique I use, comb filtering problems do not exist! My hi fi at home is proof - you'd have to hear it to believe it, even though you don't at this time.
Comb efect in music is not posible to notice as "comb" - sounds are too short and changable to analize it. Without direct comparaison of two qualities nobody can judge it. It is affecting speaker set quality .judgement with noise. Imagine how it affects mircophone recordings?. So if You do not procced it then iit may not worry You. My post is about better - not good or bad. Talkig about "proper setup" upsets me. I did in past already hundreds proper setups - each different and each looked the best so it do not exist. In reality we use best setup based on our own starting criteria because in audio each small alteration needs new setup.
First 15 minutes is pretty evangelical about the merits of the process. The extremely pragmatic step by step advice starts up later and is far different. So either skip (sorry) or wait it out. The talk dramatically changes.
Sorry to take so long to reply. I'm still not in the habit of checking this video post for comments. The second half of the talk is a description of the steps to be followed in the setup process, so naturally it is very pragmatic and straight forward in its' description compared to trying to describe how music feels and affects us when we listen. Evangelical is a relatively strong word to use, but I kind of like it. Thanks
Unless you listen to all or mostly live music you need to use a cd/or album that you are familiar with and represents the style/type of music you mostly listen to. Live music as it is heard is a far cry from the many tracks created in the studio and then left to sound engineers to decide what "shape" the sound stage will be. The music is already processed when it gets to us. !!! A live show that is amplified and sent to various speakers at the venue is not a natural sound stage either now is it.? Music in a fine concert hall is one thing and if you listen to concert hall music and like that sound use a DSP and select concert hall :) . An acoustical live event or a recording on a single track with all music/vocals going at the same time is completely different vs a studio recording broken into separate tracks with musicians not even in the same building when recording/laying down tracks.. Again now a sound engineer will create a 'sound stage" with smoke and mirrors.
Not all artists are trying to achieve a "live sound" because most live music sounds like crap and it's much about the experience at "the show". Also there is no perfect venue that covers every seat in the house unless it it not amplified via venue speakers and a true stage with individual amps for each musician (if not acoustic). Each instrument would have its own amp right next to each musician.
Let's see what Alan Parsons says about Live vs Studio. IMO you would need to adjust your speakers for every single track you listen track to ever get your speakers perfect.
We all need to get a life and use headphones more..... (I call BS on spending too much time on speaker placement)
The results of this setup technique work all day every day on my system, whether I listen to live, simple, complicated, or ultra-processed techno. I love people who insist on giving me shit about this setup process without giving it a chance or even experimenting with it. BS on speaker placement???? The way the speakers pressurize the volume of air in your room and your ears is the only connection you have with the music. I call BS on your entire reply.
I love when really smart people come up stupid crap and think it is science.
Spending too much time agonizing and never getting it perfect is what I am calling "BS" on, not speaker placement. Speaker placement is obviously VERY important. I did not mean to come at you or anyone else, just suggesting to the average person watching this to use audio tracks that are loved, played often and that which you think sound excellent while using headphones....then use that music to place your speakers ... just don't stay up for 48 hrs straight + and ignore your family while doing so.
My process takes less than 3 hours - I do appreciate your explanation.
This setup process is based on physics and how our sense of hearing functions - it is not stupid crap
So if these so-called experts, selling such high-price tagged equipment, writing for magazines, boosting of their academic credentials, don't even know how to voice their own systems, should we be listening to them at all!!! That's not a question.
really great video but if i would suggest you something, it would be to have it reupload. The constant microphone whitenoise is kind of distracting to be honest to listen to for over an hour. Its really not too hard of a task to put a audio scource into your tool of choice, have it grab the a whitenoise sample and filter it out :P
An excellent suggestion, thanks. But I am a doofus with computers, so I have no idea how to do what you describe.
@@bobrobbins5652 even free tools like audacity can do that pretty easy and efficient. with this you can for example pick a few seconds where noone talks so only the background noise is audible and audacity can then take a background noise sample and filter it out for the rest of the track
Why bother with a sub woofer other than for moves. You just need a three way with a minimum 8 inch woofer with a decent amp will fill any normal size room with great music.
I'm afraid I need to disagree - the sonic signature, the sense of space of performance halls and/or recording venues resides in the infrasonic frequencies - frequencies we feel, not necessarily hear. If they are not reproduced, there is a huge amount of information that is the sense of space that we miss out on. Like the people from REL say - it's not about the bass, it's about the space. Also, if you think an 8" woofer can reproduce the deep bass that is in organ or techno music, you are borderline delusional
basically I agree Tom but with two observations. Even the lowest music frequencies can be handled with most decent speakers with 8" drivers but the roll off can be steep below 60hz. So a nice little sub to fill in and add 3-6db around 40hz can sound very nice. Secondly, some "music" today has low end that did not come from instruments we know and love... think EDM, ..... lot's of energy below 40hz
Yeah, who wants those pesky lower octaves anyway...