We have all heard that tone controls on equipment are not very high-end, yet is there a place for them in a modern HiFi system? Find out what Paul thinks.
I use bass, treble, and loudness controls. Yes, I like the thrill factor. But from my experiences, some recordings are much easier to listen to when such controls are available. If that disqualifies me from the audiophile camp, then perhaps I should just stay away.
Exactly my feelings. I know how a guitar amplifier sounds like. I know how it should sound like in a mix. If the amp isn’t able to deliver that excitement at the flat position, then at least it should have boost and tone controls. I tried 6 amplifiers recently under 1000k that didn’t do it. Rotel a11 was the only one, with some boost, did it. However, there are many recordings that needed a further tweak. I paid $170 including tax and shipping and added the Schiit loki 4-band eq - that did the trick. The most valuable component in my set up is that eq.
If eq doesn’t cut it. Then, I simply eq the entire album “surgically” using the Audacity software - to fix things like wooly bass and incurable sibilance.
I would class myself as an audiophile and I use tone controls on my amp. I have never enjoyed a flat frequency response with either headphones or hifi. Unfortunately some of my favourite albums translate terribly to hifi so I have my tone controls (scale 1-10) set around 2 for base and 3 for treble. A very small v shape sound signature to the music that I have always preferred. That's why they add tone controls :-)
imagine a tv set without contrast brightness nor color controls?? well thats the same.. i wanna adjust to MY taste. i give a shit what the producer or musicians intended to sound.. i wanna listen as i want. its my gear.. my room my house my speakers my ears MY TONE CONTROLS and my equalizer.
And as we grow older, we lose ability to hear the upper treble. Personally I like to boost around 12kHz+ some 4-6dB to make the music sound closer to the intent and especially recover my ability to resolve details in the music. I call that "rejuvenation EQ".
Bingo. No two people have the same curves for hearing sensitivity vs. acoustic frequency. Your hearing sensitivity curve vs. acoustic frequency changes as you age. The acoustic power density curve vs. frequency is different for every room. The acoustic power density curve vs. frequency is different for every recording. So…there should never be individual tailoring of the acoustic spectrum to address these issues…?
My Schiit Lokius is on rolling backorder. I can't wait to eq again. Someone telling me how to listen to my system is cute but at the end of the day my happiness is what matters.
Isn’t the whole point of home systems to ENJOY the music / experience? Different people enjoy different things. Imagine if we all had to agree on the same style and amounts of seasoning in our food? If you enjoy tweeking, then tweek, if you enjoy pursuing the purest sound possible, then do that. We live in a day of unparalleled capabilities in both pure reproduction as well as sophisticated manipulation of the sound. Enjoy each to the extent that makes you happy. I love Thai Chilies, but don’t force me to eat Ghost Peppers (or worse). I control what I like and am not dependent on others validation of it.
I have fully embraced my Lyngdorf's parametric EQ voice shaping to finely tune the sound that suits my ears. I realise it's better to do that than find some equipment that does it. It is fine-tuned for timbre, not scoops. :)
Paul, I’m about to turn 74. I have poor hearing and tinnitus to boot. I find that a graphic equalizer helps improve what I’m hearing. To me, having a graphic equalizer is another “bullet in the cylinder”! Also, I use my eq when I’m playing my vintage turntable with ceramic cartridge. I turn the highs down and increase the base so it sounds acceptable, to me.
I respectfully disagree. I have the Klipsch 600s and use EQ in Roon to boost the crossover dip around 2000Hz. It literally becomes a different speaker.
Most recordings then and now are definitely missing either trebles or bass , no doubt about it . That is the reason and so crucial to have your tone controls . The loudness is essential as well if you would like to enjoy your music on a nice and quiet nights , and not to make angry your nice neighbours around your apartment .
The extra bass at lower vol will still piss off your neighbours, esp in joined housing, 90dB w/o loudness, half bass boost on tone control on 10" 3 way speakers was enough to piss my neighbours off
As a midrange junkie, I never boost bass or treble because I want to hear the mids. What most people don't realize, is that bosting one frequency in audio, is like turning down everything else, therefore you can actually adjust the mids, by turning up or down both bass and treble. If you have more of everything, it would just be called "Volume".
When you’re young, stoned on pot and listening to Jethro Tull at high volume i turning up the tone controls seemed amazing. Like you Paul, with age comes wisdom and it doesn’t take very long in for an audiophile to understand that bass and treble controls were ‘no no’s. There are many ways to tweak your system to adjust slight imperfections in areas of the frequency spectrum. When I stream, I’ve made judicious use of ROON’s Parametric Equalizer and brought up a small area of the low-mid base as a ‘shelf’ option of less than 3 dB and that doesn’t seem to degrade the sound of the music, in fact on my Maggies it actually seems to correct some of the bass deficiency
Yeah, you want to set up your system optimally for well recorded material. However, there are recordings that are of considerable musical merit but of significant sonic shortcomings [Arrrgh! My ears! My ears!]. A bit of finessing of the tonal spectrum can bring the recording into a better place and tone controls can do this quickly with real time feedback (and gratitude) from you nervous system. If it messes with the phase relationships and you lose a locked in sound stage, that does not bother me. I, personally, will take proper tone over depth of field any day of the week. If your priorities are different, that's fine, also. And if you have a bypass switch [Me! Me!] for when they are not needed, then no worries. Tone controls give and tone controls take away, but if their use improves the overall listening experience, I call that a win.
Tone controls are necessary, every rooms not the same size/materials etc, and everyones ears arent as sensitive to certain frequencies as others, hearing loss, age or for whatever reason, this allows you to tune to your preference whatever it may be, also some recordings are terrible and certainly need a bass boost or top end adjustments, all recordings are not even close to the same. Tone controls are essential amd a must. Whoever is not putting tone control options on their products are just cutting corners and saving on building costs and will tell you anything to make you believe that its better that way. Stop this nonsense.
@@stephenstevens6573 Its been needing to be said for a very long time, thanks. I wont support or buy from companies who cut corners anymore and charge a fortune for their "perfect" product with less features.
I miss the loudness control most of all. Notice most modern music seems to be recorded with treble extension and bass boost already present to compensate for the missing device.
@@zulumax1 loudness control is garbage, the way it is wired across a middle tap on the vol pot, the SQ goes to shit over half way setting and below that is midrange suckout
I am 63 had Klipsch speakers 40+ years, 2 la scalas 2 chorus with a Bryson 4b amp ,bp 20 preamp and a rane me 60 eq, with a nakamichi mb 2s cd player and it sounds good to me,I found there is a lack of bass in many older recordings ,the eq gives the balance I need.
Generally speaking...I agree. But!! I think that the original intention of the "Loudness" control was valid. Getting a full sound at low volume requires a different EQ than full range for sound at higher volume listening level. Also me being old... is it ok to use EQ to compensate for high frequency hearing loss?
Do not let these audio snobs dictate what is right or wrong . Anything that enhances your ability to enjoy music is recommended . Their intent is to persuade you to be infinitely unsatisfied with your system to sell you costlier components .
Back when I had my first stereo and lessor quality systems over the years, a little EQ was a necessary evil because they were lacking. Those systems were the quality filter. Now that I have a high-resolution, high-end system(better speakers, preamp, amp and sources) and have learned how to tune/position my speakers, I run Flat with my tone controls bypassed. Then I'm only at the mercy of the recordings(and my 62 yo. ears). I have found that many albums that I used to think sounded great on my early systems, are in fact, terrible recordings, but when I find a recording where the engineers knew what they were doing, OMG! the sound is to die for. EQ is only a tool that must be used judiciously only as needed.
I keep an EQ device in both of my systems for occasional, judicious use. I keep it out of the signal path because I only use pre-amps with "old fashioned" tape loops. Push a button and the EQ is in the signal path . . . push the button again and it's gone. Definitely worth it for some recordings that just need help because they were engineered so poorly.
Tone controls are evil because some people abuse it. Strange logic. By that logic, powerful amps are evil because if you play too loud you can damage your speakers or get in trouble with your neighbours. In general, high end audio equipment is evil because we spend to much time, discussing tiniest differences in sound instead of doing something useful.
I'm still in the v-curve camp, dont want to leave it. And most of us dont listen to live music, and rock music just sounds better with more thump and presence
I've never heard a speaker, sub or headphone that didn't need at least a +3db parametric shelf starting to curve up below 40 Hz. I even have 20 Hz boosted on my SVS SB16 Ultra. That's what modern live music sounds like these days: huge sub bass energy. If you listen to jazz trios, you don't need it because there's just literally no content that low. But modern music (as well as pipe organ music) digs deep and I'd argue it is INTENDED to be played back with the sub-bass boosted, in the same way that a Dolby NR cassette tape was intended to be played with its Dolby high-frequency filters rolling back off the boost that was mastered onto them. They can't master the recording with all the sub-bass energy they would like, because it would gobble all the available headroom and make the music unlistenable in your car or other less than optimal situations (including many "audiophile" speakers that can't play a damn thing below 40 Hz). Worth noting that 40 Hz is low E on a standard-tuned 4-string bass guitar. Most modern rock/metal music is tuned WAY below that. Plenty of basses running 27 Hz low notes these days.
I think that tone controls and eq can be very usefull. There's a lot of bad recordings (and i mean baaaaad) wich can be improoved and even corrected by using this resources. There's also hearing diferences between what I hear and other people hears - some people may have hearing losses because of age or other causes. In this case, tone controls and eq can help. Besides everything, to always listen to music in flat you must have a top gear and very very expensive hi end system (amp, source, speakers and cables), a well tuned big room with a nice accoustic treatment and always listen to audiophile recordings...let's agree it is not what happens, at least for most of us.
In complete agreement. My room, my ears, and especially the recording may all be in need of some help. I don’t overdo it and am always within a few db’s of flat.
I use Roon and I have to slightly correct the room with its internal DSP for some boomy recordings. In any case you have to use a digital good eq only to flatten some enhanced frequencies that are boosted by a wrong mix or room problems (if you can't solve it with a good speaker placement). In any case you must equalize only to obtain clarity and soundstage.
Aside from the EQ question, this stuff about getting "closer to the live sound in the studio" is surely a misnomer. How many recordings are live takes versus artificially constructed layers of separate and distinct musical elements, right down to the reverb added?
Thanks Paul. While I agree with your general analysis, what about the Fletcher Munson and similar curves the indicate our ears are less sensitive to the frequency extremes at low amplitudes. Doesn't the option for compensation at low volume provide a meaningful benefit?
I think everything depends on the equipment you have and the music you’re listening to. How I can listen my Heavy Metal without EQ. There is not natural sound in Heavy Metal music and it’s always good little bit tweaking, I just bring more dynamic to the recording, because not all recordings are really good. To me everything is personal preference
I have an old (1980s) JVC stereo receiver that did it right. It has 9 separate equalization adjustments, the lowest at 63Hz and the top one at 14kHz. Each of the 9 can go up to +20dB and down to -20dB. All that comes in handy to optimize the sound response.
In college, a law student from a wealthy family introduced me to what I consider my entry into the 'audiophile' realm. (vs the then popular mass market MIJ stuff) He had modded Dynaco gear (higher end caps and upgraded connectors), Chartwell BBC monitors driven by a Linn LP-12 deck. (don't remember cart or cables) He told me tone controls add noise by introducing complexity to the circuit, and introduce phase shifts which screw up the sound stage. Now, dunno if correct or not, but I took that is gospel. However during my 10+ years as a part time FoH sound engineer, EQ was my primary control to getting a good sounding mix. The key there was to make sure each instrument 'sat' in it's own space in the EQ curve and not fight with another instrument. My mantra there was always 'cut'.....not 'boost'.
I still use my bass, mid and treble plus loudness on my amp, but after learning, watching these videos and reading some articles I now kinda appreciate more the warm, clearer and more natural sound of music and videos that I listen to, so i set them all back to zero or flat, except in cases where some songs or music are badly recorded that I have to adjust the tones.
I agree with you in part, but I use a professional third-octave equaliser that I spent ages adjusting and in the end I've found that it makes a tremendous difference. When I switch it out - which isn't often - it just sounds wrong, especially in the mid-range.
This is why my pre amp is a P6 and not a PS Audio, it is not the place of a manufacturer to tell me what I need, or "what I should want". I bought it, I own it, it should do as I say.
I am a musician. Heard live music many times. Natural and live music can too often sound boring if not perfectly reproduced. Many seem to miss that point. A great performance should require minimal EQ. Smaller speakers almost always will benefit from a "linear" bass boost. After all... I live around neighbors. Could you imagine their disdain if a live band was always performing in my living room? Stereo is an illusion, like art is an illusion of the real thing painted. Do I win a prize? ;)
Thank you for the video. I hear what you were saying about tone controls but if I spend my hard-earned money on some audio equipment and if I like it better with the tone controls turned up then so be it. It's really no skin off from anyone else's nose.
I couldn’t live without tone control. Some song has too much bass, and I want to be able to lower it.....and in some songs the bass is too low, so want to be able to raise it a bit. Of course you want to be able to tweak the sound to YOUR liking.
Completely to the point. Totally agree. I did the same "mustache" thing in my first setup with some garbage speakers. Several decades ago, when I finally had a really decent, although vintage, set of speakers that really had inherent proper bass extension, I no longer need any kind of EQ. And that happened just as I was able to get myself a long wanted 2x33 band graphic equalizer. It looked gorgeous but was totally not needed. And let's just not forget the room, i.e. room treatment. It's the required "eq" that is fundamental for a decent system to produce proper sound.
I have an Adcom pre amp and amp feeding Yamaha 500 speakers. I use bass, treble, and loudness controls along with the controls on the speaker to get a more natural sound in my room. The controls are also taking into account the room acoustics. This has always been my goal, even since my first Marantz/JBL system in the early 70's.
The old school "Bandaxall" tone controls were originally designed for table radios from the 1940's ! But the circuits became cheap to build and eventually became commonplace in "hi-fi" systems and then in home audio. The ideal solution (for me) was a 15-band "constant-q" EQ. It's analog..but so is the rest of my system. Unfortunately nobody seems to make a 10 band (or even 5 band) "constant-q" Equalizer for home audio even though 31 band versions are still used in professional recording and PA. There are differently sonic differences between "constant-q" EQ's and the legacy standard "bandpass filter" EQ's and two-band (legacy) tone control circuits. There are few good articles (online) on the benefits of "constant-Q" EQ's and even a site that shows you how to build one.
I wish everything had a loudness button since I listen at low volumes often. It's not meant for high volumes, it's meant for lower volume listening and does make the system more accurate from a human listening perspective at that volume. What would be great is if preamps and receivers had bass, treble and loudness but had a button to completely defeat/bypass those controls. Best of both worlds, then we can decide what we like and what we don't.
Nearly every recording has EQ on individual tracks, across the mix bus, and then by the mastering engineer. Why not put an EQ to match your taste the same as the artist, mixer, and mastering engineer do?
Great answers! I actually kind myself went to the same path as you Paul. With this video you indeed confirm that I made the right choice. Now, I am using the EQ only on some tracks.
Its all about enjoying the music using my ears - personal preference. Tone controls are not evil but a blessing with many recordings and a loudness control for low level listening at night. Not everyone aspires to be a purist, but everyone wants the best sounding music at home.
You will have to pry my tone controls and equalizer from my cold dead fingers. They are essential for low level listening and are handy to deal with room effects.
🤔 I had an EQ separate years ago, and yes, it made music sound like a a bag of spanners. But the bass and treble on my amp I always use the bass full and treble off. Mostly because if you have a good budget amp to add clout. As for treble taking it down might help in reverby rooms take the edge off the exaggerated mid?
Older recordings are also normally very thin sounding - quite mid-centric. I've never really paid full attention to it, but I do notice it. When I put on some oldies playlist (60s - 80s, sometimes 90s) for example, I really do notice the absence of the sub frequencies and sometimes the shimmer in the upper end. It might have just been the recording gear at the time weren't really able to capture those sonic ranges that well. So, people abusing the tone controls at that time were probably doing it to compensate those missing ranges to artificially re-gain the full range, making them more audible.
Usually simple standard bass and treble controls are poorly matching on center frequency and Q factor to what is needed for calibrating a great system to sound better. If you are playing music from a digital source (CD or streaming), a high resolution DSP with a parametric equalizer can do wonders if carefully used. The company miniDSP offers such option.
I love control... anytime I want to change my sound I know how to. .... Instead of searching for other peoples sound I have found TONE CONTROLS are wonderful 'hunters' equipment,' that has always lead me to the next piece of equipment. ???HOW??? (When we had Brick and Mortar Stores) I could know that I was searching for a MORE PERFECT Version of the sound I created with TONE CONTROLS... and when I did hear that MORE PERFECT Version I felt confident that I was buying a Speaker I wanted. .... it kind of takes the uncertainty away of buying when YOU know more about your taste. It doesn't hurt that I've spent several thousand hours in small and LARGE recording studios.
I worked in R&D for a Canadian hearing aid manufacturer for over 40 years and when you see the frequency response of a hearing aid you will learn that they are not flat. As we age we all suffer from presbycusis to a degree and require boosting of high frequencies in many cases just to hear or understand speech. If you are 60 or older I can almost guarantee yo will be missing out on your listening experience without any equalization. This can be done with today’s hearing aids. RIC (receiver in the canal) devices can be very accurately tuned to give listeners much improved hearing and a better overall experience when listening to music. Without that, some equalization is generally required. So as Paul indicates here tone controls in moderation can be used to normalize the listening experience and I guess I agree that using them to exaggerate the music experience does make them a little on the evil side.
Great question and answer Paul l agree. I used Dirac live room calibration which is great for phase and time alignment issues in my room. It also digitally equalises the frequency peaks and nulls in my room. I guess for me that's the best way to look at an equaliser it should be equalising things not boosting things.🎧👍🙂
I think they're underappreciated and glaringly missing from most of today's gear. Can help with a very bright high end, or a thin low end. But definitely use sparingly.
Not to mention the distortions any additional circuitry will inherently add. By bypassing or not having them you simply reduce the number of passive and active devices the signal goes through.
I remember being told that. I prefer having tone controls. I have found that if the recording is good, it is not necessary. When it is a rough recording, then I find that minor adjustments are nice. It also depends on what speakers you have. That said, I do miss the Loudness Button. Like to see that come back because that works for when it is at a low level and it's background noise while, say working from home. ;-) Rock on.
I HAD to have tone controls to listen to my old Magnepans at lower volumes, and to bring out good sound a higher volumes. Up very loud, they were OK running flat. Last Spring I sold the Maggies and got some nicer bookshelf speakers on stands. I also replaced my separates with a more highly resolving integrated amp, also with tone controls. With the new set up, I've been running it flat at any volume and haven't had a need to use the treble & bass controls. My smaller, odd shaped room just didn't agree with the Maggies, I guess...plus they really sounded bad at low volumes.
it's too bad that audio formats don't allow for some sort of standardized EQ settings to be stored in the metadata. Like adding a 10 band EQ setting to ID tags in MP3's for instance. Might as well add track/album gain settings to the metadata as well. Not all of us can enjoy perfectly set up $100K+ speakers/equipment in a perfectly designed room (i wish). I NEED tone controls for my cheap/weak setup!
I'm in the process of building my own preamp based on circuits from a respected electronics engineer in audio circles. Well designed bass and treble controls with adjustable turnover frequencies were on my list of must-haves. No room or speaker is perfect. People seem to spend megabucks when matching components and cables so the overall sound isn't too dark or bright when a subtle adjustment of eq would achieve the same thing a lot faster and cheaper.
I use digital eq for room correction. L shaped room with a large bay window on one side. A couple frequencies need tweaked her and there. I'm trying to weasel my way into the one of the spare bedrooms so I can make a dedicated music room. Until then I will continue to improvise, adapt and overcome. OOH RAH!
I now have an audiophile system but I miss my old parametric equalizer. MQA and DIRAC are interesting and great but I would like the ability to adjust eq sound on certain recordings as Paul mentions. I do appreciate owning an amazing system and proper speaker set-up but the good old days were a lot of fun.
Set my vintage receiver to 0 on bass and treble and that's how I listen to vinyl. For my CD collection, I bought a $100 EQ and set 7500Hz at 11:00, and that really helps take some of the harsh brightness out of a lot of recordings. I also set 60Hz to 11:00 for some CDs that have the bass too robust. CDs that used to fatigue me no longer do. I no longer have to reach for the volume control when an upper-end instrument (alto sax, for example) comes on. Small tweak with huge ROI.
Bass 'n Treble are quite often necessary when you listen to vinyl recordings .... and yes early recordings and live musical broadcasts on FM radio did lack in top and bottom end response
Nice one Paul, with my YAMAHA RX-A3070 7.4.4 sound system, employing 4 subs, I have it dialled in so that my base is nearly on the verge of being boomy, with different recordings and bands, I'll go to base/treble control to teak it a little, normally only around 3db either way in some cases, like with The Cruel Sea band, their music has a lot of base, when the base is right, it sounds so good, or with AC⚡DC it can get a bit bright, so I turn the treble down a little, for me base/treble control still has it's place.
Huge range of opinion on this one but alot of good justification for tone controls here in the comments. Mr. Paul makes some statements I can agree with and a few I cannot. Context is really important here. His perspective seems to be based on only using REALLY nice audio equipment, in a well set up room, playing mostly excellent recordings, and he probably also has pretty good hearing. In that scenario, tone controls may not be needed or desired at all. But for those of us who are not living in a perfect (or near perfect) high end audio world, tone controls, graphic eq's, or even parametric eq's can be a real blessing. They can sweeten or tame old or bad recordings, compensate for imperfect speakers or imperfect speaker placement, or just bad hearing. Not everyone is in a position to just go out and buy better equipment to solve these issues. Sometimes tone controls just make things sound better and more enjoyable to you. If you're not enjoying it, what's the point?
I'm sure the analogy has been used before but bass and treble to music is like salt and pepper to music. Sometime you want more salt. Sometimes more pepper. And sometimes the chef gets it just right, and youre happy just to enjoy the meal as is.
Most of the hifi EQ I've seen is pretty cheapo unless it's DSP. But in the world of recording, people pay out the a$$ for prized vintage EQs. I've always thought it would be cool if I could insert an outboard eq used for recording and mixing between preamp and my power amp. Especially something broad like a tube based like a Pultec to add "air" to the top end, or a Neve 1073 to finesse the mids, or an API 560 for when you need a scalpel. Would this even be possible? Would it be a problem of impedance matching? I always found the EQ on my old Marantz 2230 to be useful to get the amp, the speakers and the room to mesh together. Now I have a much more resolving system that sounds great "au naturale" but still use the little Schiit Loki eq for certain tracks or genres that I find benefit from a little more of a v-curve.
I agree with you 100%. A decent system set up correctly sounds worse using the typical tone controls. Less live, less transparent more two dimensional. I may move my listening chair forward or back to get the balance right. In my 2014 Chevy pickup there are a few CDs I drop the bass a notch and boost the treble a notch. Basically one artist who I like probably the most but doesn’t know how to mix and one other cd, that’s it. Fader one notch towards dash speakers so image is in front unless windows are open and then it sounds best as the Bose engineers designed it. That’s on six full range Bose drivers with a Delco CD player. For a cheap car stereo it’s amazingly well engineered. Nothing but respect for Bose here. I don’t want to change vehicles and listen off my phone but I’ve got 250 k miles so I'm nursing it to the finish line.
A loudness button is great for listening at low volumes - based on the Munson curves. A treble dial is great to dial down any simblance in the recording. Not sure why you would need a bass dial, maybe to add some body to the recording
I prefer tone controls in case you need them ,but also a tone control defeat switch. An RIAA preamp is a tone control circuit and also speaker crossovers are frequency shaped, so I can't get phased about them!
Just bought a new system (Cambridge CX) but using existing B&W speakers. It’s the first system I’ve had that has no tone controls or EQ. I have to say though, I’m not missing them at all, I think I’ve got it absolutely right. For me anyway!
As for loudness, i see the similar sense to use it, coz by guiet music and not sensitive speakers you simply can not hear deapest bass and highest trebles as by louder listening. It follows from human hearing physiology. But there is another problem: most of amplifiers has input sensitivity betwen 100-300mV, and CD outputs level is more than 1V, you must use Volume button in lowest possition and loudness works not correctly, basses and highs are overloaded...music ist distorted this way...Inputs attenuators or potentiometers can to correct it.
I hate loudness, the way it operates, my Dad's old Audio Reflex amp sounded crap without it (sounded like a transistor radio), midrange spikes at over half vol setting as loudness always does (on all makes). I collect old suitcase record players that have permanent loudness and I come across one without it, it sounded good without loudness, the vol pot didn't have the middle tap, I then turned off the loudness on the Realistic STA 130 amp and found I can enjoy listening w/o loudness
Finding equipment and speakers that work well with a multitude of genres and listening levels is impossible. I use a Behringer eq that I have set up to do this quite well. I do occasionally have to make minor adjustments, but it is more convenient than changing some part of my system to improve the sound. And it is particularly good at removing sibilance from horn speakers.
At 110dB with saturation on the bass it will kill a full range speaker, at the same time saturation on treble will do the same to the tweeter, in my humble opinion the basic eq high mid and bass can be really helpful on a DJ setup or just on a loud environment!! This will color your sound to still be loud but slightly “filtered” and keep your equalization for the next song or the next album!!
Introducing anything in the signal path can cause degradation. A properly designed equalizer can reduce, if not eliminate such degradation if it can be bypassed when not in use. The advantage to equalization, as you have pointed out, is that many recordings are less than optimally produced. Think of all the care that you take at Octave Records to this end and why you felt the need to create your own label in the first place. There are many fine performances out there that can benefit from a little signal tweaking. I don't see it to be any more detrimental than a poor recording is in the first place.
i hope not.... I use a center speaker (tube 1955) and it's nothing like my A/B Amp playing my Right and Left speakers or the Amp inside my Sub-Woofer. ..... trying to get the invisible band to appear when the equipment disappear. ..... using volume works to a degree, but all the equipment is different so TONE CONTROLS allow me to fake a CROSS OVER between the three different sources and their Amps.
A mixing board is mostly tone controls,Most so called engineers have hearing problem.You need tone controls to make up for bad recordings .Im glad I get all the music for free cause I would never pay for alot of this crap.You have every right to adjust the sound the way you want,does not matter what the so called artist intended
It is nonsense that tone controls degrade sound in any manner - this is an archaic idea that was prevalent when high audio manufacturers decided they could make more profit by reducing functionality. I would ask Paul - does your soundboard in Octave studios have tone sliders? These days some of the best preamps (like my Luxman CL1000), as well as Accuphase, McIntosh, and Esoteric all include bass and treble controls (and some have midrange control). These are important for certain musical genres such as rock and techno, while classical music benefits from straight line input without tone controls.
We are all different. I always say "if it sounds good to you, that's all that matters." What good is a pricey audio system if you don't like the way it sounds, right? Some people like red cars, some like blue. I think in the same categories about audio. It's a personal preference.
This is just the super charger Vs turbo debate. No what really matters, who finishes first on race day. I do like the fact you had to re-learn to like something you didn't at the start. I wouldn't have a clock radio without a EQ. I like control.
If you are listening guiet music, and you can not hear some bass or trebles as they are by louder listening, so in some cases you can help with bass&treble a little. But serious listening is usualy louder, and with balanced system, sensitive speakers you do not need it...
Now that's an idea. Having a DSP module that detects file Metadata, looks to a small database of gain and EQ profiles you've created and applies accordingly.
Oh that sounds wonderful! I really wish that was a thing already! Then never having to fine tune much if at all, everything just ends up eq’ing flat and then it’s just the speakers sounding how they’re meant to
Agree 100% on everything you say in this video! I have said it before about you channel: it's so good to hear the voice of logic, in a field so full of BS...
I run my phono pre through a studio EQ that has a hardwire bypass, and I love it. I can restore the low end on so many 70's & 80's LPs and make them sound much better. If you think that's in some way disrespecting the artist's intent, I can assure you, the low end was lopped off so they could squeeze in more time per side...... The artist had no say in it.
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I use bass, treble, and loudness controls. Yes, I like the thrill factor. But from my experiences, some recordings are much easier to listen to when such controls are available. If that disqualifies me from the audiophile camp, then perhaps I should just stay away.
It doesn’t remove you from being an audiophile. Some recordings just suck and have too much/too little bass or treble.
Exactly my feelings. I know how a guitar amplifier sounds like. I know how it should sound like in a mix. If the amp isn’t able to deliver that excitement at the flat position, then at least it should have boost and tone controls. I tried 6 amplifiers recently under 1000k that didn’t do it. Rotel a11 was the only one, with some boost, did it. However, there are many recordings that needed a further tweak. I paid $170 including tax and shipping and added the Schiit loki 4-band eq - that did the trick. The most valuable component in my set up is that eq.
If eq doesn’t cut it. Then, I simply eq the entire album “surgically” using the Audacity software - to fix things like wooly bass and incurable sibilance.
I would class myself as an audiophile and I use tone controls on my amp. I have never enjoyed a flat frequency response with either headphones or hifi. Unfortunately some of my favourite albums translate terribly to hifi so I have my tone controls (scale 1-10) set around 2 for base and 3 for treble. A very small v shape sound signature to the music that I have always preferred. That's why they add tone controls :-)
imagine a tv set without contrast brightness nor color controls?? well thats the same.. i wanna adjust to MY taste.
i give a shit what the producer or musicians intended to sound.. i wanna listen as i want. its my gear.. my room my house my speakers my ears MY TONE CONTROLS and my equalizer.
And as we grow older, we lose ability to hear the upper treble. Personally I like to boost around 12kHz+ some 4-6dB to make the music sound closer to the intent and especially recover my ability to resolve details in the music. I call that "rejuvenation EQ".
Bingo.
No two people have the same curves for hearing sensitivity vs. acoustic frequency.
Your hearing sensitivity curve vs. acoustic frequency changes as you age.
The acoustic power density curve vs. frequency is different for every room.
The acoustic power density curve vs. frequency is different for every recording.
So…there should never be individual tailoring of the acoustic spectrum to address these issues…?
My Schiit Lokius is on rolling backorder. I can't wait to eq again. Someone telling me how to listen to my system is cute but at the end of the day my happiness is what matters.
Isn’t the whole point of home systems to ENJOY the music / experience? Different people enjoy different things. Imagine if we all had to agree on the same style and amounts of seasoning in our food? If you enjoy tweeking, then tweek, if you enjoy pursuing the purest sound possible, then do that. We live in a day of unparalleled capabilities in both pure reproduction as well as sophisticated manipulation of the sound. Enjoy each to the extent that makes you happy. I love Thai Chilies, but don’t force me to eat Ghost Peppers (or worse). I control what I like and am not dependent on others validation of it.
I have fully embraced my Lyngdorf's parametric EQ voice shaping to finely tune the sound that suits my ears. I realise it's better to do that than find some equipment that does it. It is fine-tuned for timbre, not scoops. :)
Paul, I’m about to turn 74. I have poor hearing and tinnitus to boot. I find that a graphic equalizer helps improve what I’m hearing. To me, having a graphic equalizer is another “bullet in the cylinder”! Also, I use my eq when I’m playing my vintage turntable with ceramic cartridge. I turn the highs down and increase the base so it sounds acceptable, to me.
I respectfully disagree. I have the Klipsch 600s and use EQ in Roon to boost the crossover dip around 2000Hz. It literally becomes a different speaker.
Most recordings then and now are definitely missing either trebles or bass , no doubt about it . That is the reason and so crucial to have your tone controls .
The loudness is essential as well if you would like to enjoy your music on a nice and quiet nights , and not to make angry your nice neighbours around your apartment .
The extra bass at lower vol will still piss off your neighbours, esp in joined housing, 90dB w/o loudness, half bass boost on tone control on 10" 3 way speakers was enough to piss my neighbours off
As a midrange junkie, I never boost bass or treble because I want to hear the mids. What most people don't realize, is that bosting one frequency in audio, is like turning down everything else, therefore you can actually adjust the mids, by turning up or down both bass and treble. If you have more of everything, it would just be called "Volume".
When you’re young, stoned on pot and listening to Jethro Tull at high volume i turning up the tone controls seemed amazing. Like you Paul, with age comes wisdom and it doesn’t take very long in for an audiophile to understand that bass and treble controls were ‘no no’s. There are many ways to tweak your system to adjust slight imperfections in areas of the frequency spectrum.
When I stream, I’ve made judicious use of ROON’s Parametric Equalizer and brought up a small area of the low-mid base as a ‘shelf’ option of less than 3 dB and that doesn’t seem to degrade the sound of the music, in fact on my Maggies it actually seems to correct some of the bass deficiency
Yeah, you want to set up your system optimally for well recorded material. However, there are recordings that are of considerable musical merit but of significant sonic shortcomings [Arrrgh! My ears! My ears!]. A bit of finessing of the tonal spectrum can bring the recording into a better place and tone controls can do this quickly with real time feedback (and gratitude) from you nervous system. If it messes with the phase relationships and you lose a locked in sound stage, that does not bother me. I, personally, will take proper tone over depth of field any day of the week. If your priorities are different, that's fine, also. And if you have a bypass switch [Me! Me!] for when they are not needed, then no worries. Tone controls give and tone controls take away, but if their use improves the overall listening experience, I call that a win.
Tone controls are necessary, every rooms not the same size/materials etc, and everyones ears arent as sensitive to certain frequencies as others, hearing loss, age or for whatever reason, this allows you to tune to your preference whatever it may be, also some recordings are terrible and certainly need a bass boost or top end adjustments, all recordings are not even close to the same. Tone controls are essential amd a must. Whoever is not putting tone control options on their products are just cutting corners and saving on building costs and will tell you anything to make you believe that its better that way. Stop this nonsense.
Finally! Somebody with the balls to say it to an audiophile manufacturer!!
@@stephenstevens6573 Its been needing to be said for a very long time, thanks. I wont support or buy from companies who cut corners anymore and charge a fortune for their "perfect" product with less features.
I miss the loudness control most of all. Notice most modern music seems to be recorded with treble extension and bass boost already present to compensate for the missing device.
piffle!
@@zulumax1 loudness control is garbage, the way it is wired across a middle tap on the vol pot, the SQ goes to shit over half way setting and below that is midrange suckout
I am 63 had Klipsch speakers 40+ years, 2 la scalas 2 chorus with a Bryson 4b amp ,bp 20 preamp and a rane me 60 eq, with a nakamichi mb 2s cd player and it sounds good to me,I found there is a lack of bass in many older recordings ,the eq gives the balance I need.
Generally speaking...I agree. But!! I think that the original intention of the "Loudness" control was valid. Getting a full sound at low volume requires a different EQ than full range for sound at higher volume listening level. Also me being old... is it ok to use EQ to compensate for high frequency hearing loss?
You're exactly right about the loudness control. Was and is valid, will be until human evolution catches up to how hi-fi purists wish things work ;)
It’s to counteract the effect of the Fletcher-Munson curve
Whatever you say is ok is ok
Do not let these audio snobs dictate what is right or wrong . Anything that enhances your ability to enjoy music is recommended . Their intent is to persuade you to be infinitely unsatisfied with your system to sell you costlier components .
Back when I had my first stereo and lessor quality systems over the years, a little EQ was a necessary evil because they were lacking. Those systems were the quality filter. Now that I have a high-resolution, high-end system(better speakers, preamp, amp and sources) and have learned how to tune/position my speakers, I run Flat with my tone controls bypassed. Then I'm only at the mercy of the recordings(and my 62 yo. ears). I have found that many albums that I used to think sounded great on my early systems, are in fact, terrible recordings, but when I find a recording where the engineers knew what they were doing, OMG! the sound is to die for. EQ is only a tool that must be used judiciously only as needed.
I keep an EQ device in both of my systems for occasional, judicious use. I keep it out of the signal path because I only use pre-amps with "old fashioned" tape loops. Push a button and the EQ is in the signal path . . . push the button again and it's gone. Definitely worth it for some recordings that just need help because they were engineered so poorly.
Tone controls are evil because some people abuse it. Strange logic. By that logic, powerful amps are evil because if you play too loud you can damage your speakers or get in trouble with your neighbours. In general, high end audio equipment is evil because we spend to much time, discussing tiniest differences in sound instead of doing something useful.
I'm still in the v-curve camp, dont want to leave it. And most of us dont listen to live music, and rock music just sounds better with more thump and presence
That's me I add some bass and bring the vocals out alittle more
I've never heard a speaker, sub or headphone that didn't need at least a +3db parametric shelf starting to curve up below 40 Hz. I even have 20 Hz boosted on my SVS SB16 Ultra. That's what modern live music sounds like these days: huge sub bass energy. If you listen to jazz trios, you don't need it because there's just literally no content that low. But modern music (as well as pipe organ music) digs deep and I'd argue it is INTENDED to be played back with the sub-bass boosted, in the same way that a Dolby NR cassette tape was intended to be played with its Dolby high-frequency filters rolling back off the boost that was mastered onto them. They can't master the recording with all the sub-bass energy they would like, because it would gobble all the available headroom and make the music unlistenable in your car or other less than optimal situations (including many "audiophile" speakers that can't play a damn thing below 40 Hz).
Worth noting that 40 Hz is low E on a standard-tuned 4-string bass guitar. Most modern rock/metal music is tuned WAY below that. Plenty of basses running 27 Hz low notes these days.
I think that tone controls and eq can be very usefull. There's a lot of bad recordings (and i mean baaaaad) wich can be improoved and even corrected by using this resources. There's also hearing diferences between what I hear and other people hears - some people may have hearing losses because of age or other causes. In this case, tone controls and eq can help. Besides everything, to always listen to music in flat you must have a top gear and very very expensive hi end system (amp, source, speakers and cables), a well tuned big room with a nice accoustic treatment and always listen to audiophile recordings...let's agree it is not what happens, at least for most of us.
In complete agreement. My room, my ears, and especially the recording may all be in need of some help. I don’t overdo it and am always within a few db’s of flat.
My Bose 301 II's still sound great after 35 years, no EQ required. 12" from the side and back walls, 6' apart. plenty of bass and treble.
I use Roon and I have to slightly correct the room with its internal DSP for some boomy recordings. In any case you have to use a digital good eq only to flatten some enhanced frequencies that are boosted by a wrong mix or room problems (if you can't solve it with a good speaker placement). In any case you must equalize only to obtain clarity and soundstage.
I love the tone controls on my goodwill-bought hifi setup lol. Those cabs distort at like 1 quarter power, it's hilarious
Aside from the EQ question, this stuff about getting "closer to the live sound in the studio" is surely a misnomer. How many recordings are live takes versus artificially constructed layers of separate and distinct musical elements, right down to the reverb added?
Thanks Paul nice video, Excellent and usual
Thanks Paul. While I agree with your general analysis, what about the Fletcher Munson and similar curves the indicate our ears are less sensitive to the frequency extremes at low amplitudes. Doesn't the option for compensation at low volume provide a meaningful benefit?
It's a good point. Very good. Funny how it doesn't seem to register with hi-fi purists.
@@AndersHansgaard Thanks, Anders and a very good point. Purity is a tricky thing. As with most things, it all depends on your definition :)
I think everything depends on the equipment you have and the music you’re listening to. How I can listen my Heavy Metal without EQ. There is not natural sound in Heavy Metal music and it’s always good little bit tweaking, I just bring more dynamic to the recording, because not all recordings are really good. To me everything is personal preference
I Love watching your videos man. Thank you!
I have an old (1980s) JVC stereo receiver that did it right. It has 9 separate equalization adjustments, the lowest at 63Hz and the top one at 14kHz. Each of the 9 can go up to +20dB and down to -20dB. All that comes in handy to optimize the sound response.
In college, a law student from a wealthy family introduced me to what I consider my entry into the 'audiophile' realm. (vs the then popular mass market MIJ stuff) He had modded Dynaco gear (higher end caps and upgraded connectors), Chartwell BBC monitors driven by a Linn LP-12 deck. (don't remember cart or cables) He told me tone controls add noise by introducing complexity to the circuit, and introduce phase shifts which screw up the sound stage. Now, dunno if correct or not, but I took that is gospel. However during my 10+ years as a part time FoH sound engineer, EQ was my primary control to getting a good sounding mix. The key there was to make sure each instrument 'sat' in it's own space in the EQ curve and not fight with another instrument. My mantra there was always 'cut'.....not 'boost'.
Great explanation. Surprised you didn't mention your individual album/track eq tag concept.
I still use my bass, mid and treble plus loudness on my amp, but after learning, watching these videos and reading some articles I now kinda appreciate more the warm, clearer and more natural sound of music and videos that I listen to, so i set them all back to zero or flat, except in cases where some songs or music are badly recorded that I have to adjust the tones.
I agree with you in part, but I use a professional third-octave equaliser that I spent ages adjusting and in the end I've found that it makes a tremendous difference. When I switch it out - which isn't often - it just sounds wrong, especially in the mid-range.
This is why my pre amp is a P6 and not a PS Audio, it is not the place of a manufacturer to tell me what I need, or "what I should want". I bought it, I own it, it should do as I say.
I am a musician. Heard live music many times. Natural and live music can too often sound boring if not perfectly reproduced. Many seem to miss that point. A great performance should require minimal EQ. Smaller speakers almost always will benefit from a "linear" bass boost. After all... I live around neighbors. Could you imagine their disdain if a live band was always performing in my living room? Stereo is an illusion, like art is an illusion of the real thing painted. Do I win a prize? ;)
Isn’t the main point of eq used for helping to correct room shortcomings? You didn’t even mention this.
Thank you for the video. I hear what you were saying about tone controls but if I spend my hard-earned money on some audio equipment and if I like it better with the tone controls turned up then so be it. It's really no skin off from anyone else's nose.
I couldn’t live without tone control. Some song has too much bass, and I want to be able to lower it.....and in some songs the bass is too low, so want to be able to raise it a bit. Of course you want to be able to tweak the sound to YOUR liking.
Completely to the point. Totally agree. I did the same "mustache" thing in my first setup with some garbage speakers. Several decades ago, when I finally had a really decent, although vintage, set of speakers that really had inherent proper bass extension, I no longer need any kind of EQ. And that happened just as I was able to get myself a long wanted 2x33 band graphic equalizer. It looked gorgeous but was totally not needed.
And let's just not forget the room, i.e. room treatment. It's the required "eq" that is fundamental for a decent system to produce proper sound.
Tone control helps adjust for the room and speaker color.
In my Oppinion the best thing to altenate the sound is a very simple tilt control at 300Hz
I have an Adcom pre amp and amp feeding Yamaha 500 speakers. I use bass, treble, and loudness controls along with the controls on the speaker to get a more natural sound in my room. The controls are also taking into account the room acoustics. This has always been my goal, even since my first Marantz/JBL system in the early 70's.
The old school "Bandaxall" tone controls were originally designed for table radios from the 1940's ! But the circuits became cheap to build and eventually became commonplace in "hi-fi" systems and then in home audio. The ideal solution (for me) was a 15-band "constant-q" EQ. It's analog..but so is the rest of my system. Unfortunately nobody seems to make a 10 band (or even 5 band) "constant-q" Equalizer for home audio even though 31 band versions are still used in professional recording and PA. There are differently sonic differences between "constant-q" EQ's and the legacy standard "bandpass filter" EQ's and two-band (legacy) tone control circuits. There are few good articles (online) on the benefits of "constant-Q" EQ's and even a site that shows you how to build one.
Good! You've just inspired me to build a 256 band graphic equalizer for each channel.
I wish everything had a loudness button since I listen at low volumes often. It's not meant for high volumes, it's meant for lower volume listening and does make the system more accurate from a human listening perspective at that volume.
What would be great is if preamps and receivers had bass, treble and loudness but had a button to completely defeat/bypass those controls. Best of both worlds, then we can decide what we like and what we don't.
Nearly every recording has EQ on individual tracks, across the mix bus, and then by the mastering engineer. Why not put an EQ to match your taste the same as the artist, mixer, and mastering engineer do?
Great answers! I actually kind myself went to the same path as you Paul. With this video you indeed confirm that I made the right choice. Now, I am using the EQ only on some tracks.
Its all about enjoying the music using my ears - personal preference. Tone controls are not evil but a blessing with many recordings and a loudness control for low level listening at night. Not everyone aspires to be a purist, but everyone wants the best sounding music at home.
You will have to pry my tone controls and equalizer from my cold dead fingers. They are essential for low level listening and are handy to deal with room effects.
🤔 I had an EQ separate years ago, and yes, it made music sound like a a bag of spanners. But the bass and treble on my amp I always use the bass full and treble off. Mostly because if you have a good budget amp to add clout. As for treble taking it down might help in reverby rooms take the edge off the exaggerated mid?
Another Paul Classic! Thanks!
Older recordings are also normally very thin sounding - quite mid-centric. I've never really paid full attention to it, but I do notice it. When I put on some oldies playlist (60s - 80s, sometimes 90s) for example, I really do notice the absence of the sub frequencies and sometimes the shimmer in the upper end. It might have just been the recording gear at the time weren't really able to capture those sonic ranges that well. So, people abusing the tone controls at that time were probably doing it to compensate those missing ranges to artificially re-gain the full range, making them more audible.
Usually simple standard bass and treble controls are poorly matching on center frequency and Q factor to what is needed for calibrating a great system to sound better. If you are playing music from a digital source (CD or streaming), a high resolution DSP with a parametric equalizer can do wonders if carefully used. The company miniDSP offers such option.
I love control... anytime I want to change my sound I know how to.
.... Instead of searching for other peoples sound I have found TONE CONTROLS are wonderful 'hunters' equipment,' that has always lead me to the next piece of equipment. ???HOW???
(When we had Brick and Mortar Stores) I could know that I was searching for a MORE PERFECT Version of the sound I created with TONE CONTROLS... and when I did hear that MORE PERFECT Version I felt confident that I was buying a Speaker I wanted.
.... it kind of takes the uncertainty away of buying when YOU know more about your taste.
It doesn't hurt that I've spent several thousand hours in small and LARGE recording studios.
I worked in R&D for a Canadian hearing aid manufacturer for over 40 years and when you see the frequency response of a hearing aid you will learn that they are not flat. As we age we all suffer from presbycusis to a degree and require boosting of high frequencies in many cases just to hear or understand speech. If you are 60 or older I can almost guarantee yo will be missing out on your listening experience without any equalization. This can be done with today’s hearing aids. RIC (receiver in the canal) devices can be very accurately tuned to give listeners much improved hearing and a better overall experience when listening to music. Without that, some equalization is generally required.
So as Paul indicates here tone controls in moderation can be used to normalize the listening experience and I guess I agree that using them to exaggerate the music experience does make them a little on the evil side.
No highs? No lows? Its must be..........BOSE!
I do still enjoy a good EQ & Spectrum analyzer, thats just me.
Great question and answer Paul l agree. I used Dirac live room calibration which is great for phase and time alignment issues in my room. It also digitally equalises the frequency peaks and nulls in my room. I guess for me that's the best way to look at an equaliser it should be equalising things not boosting things.🎧👍🙂
I think they're underappreciated and glaringly missing from most of today's gear. Can help with a very bright high end, or a thin low end. But definitely use sparingly.
Not to mention the distortions any additional circuitry will inherently add. By bypassing or not having them you simply reduce the number of passive and active devices the signal goes through.
It's better to have EQ and not use it than to need EQ and not have it. Just have a defeat switch which can also be useful for A/B comparisons.
I remember being told that. I prefer having tone controls. I have found that if the recording is good, it is not necessary. When it is a rough recording, then I find that minor adjustments are nice. It also depends on what speakers you have. That said, I do miss the Loudness Button. Like to see that come back because that works for when it is at a low level and it's background noise while, say working from home. ;-) Rock on.
I HAD to have tone controls to listen to my old Magnepans at lower volumes, and to bring out good sound a higher volumes. Up very loud, they were OK running flat.
Last Spring I sold the Maggies and got some nicer bookshelf speakers on stands. I also replaced my separates with a more highly resolving integrated amp, also with tone controls.
With the new set up, I've been running it flat at any volume and haven't had a need to use the treble & bass controls.
My smaller, odd shaped room just didn't agree with the Maggies, I guess...plus they really sounded bad at low volumes.
it's too bad that audio formats don't allow for some sort of standardized EQ settings to be stored in the metadata. Like adding a 10 band EQ setting to ID tags in MP3's for instance. Might as well add track/album gain settings to the metadata as well. Not all of us can enjoy perfectly set up $100K+ speakers/equipment in a perfectly designed room (i wish). I NEED tone controls for my cheap/weak setup!
Dude delete this comment and patent the idea!!
I'm in the process of building my own preamp based on circuits from a respected electronics engineer in audio circles. Well designed bass and treble controls with adjustable turnover frequencies were on my list of must-haves. No room or speaker is perfect. People seem to spend megabucks when matching components and cables so the overall sound isn't too dark or bright when a subtle adjustment of eq would achieve the same thing a lot faster and cheaper.
I use digital eq for room correction. L shaped room with a large bay window on one side. A couple frequencies need tweaked her and there. I'm trying to weasel my way into the one of the spare bedrooms so I can make a dedicated music room. Until then I will continue to improvise, adapt and overcome. OOH RAH!
I now have an audiophile system but I miss my old parametric equalizer. MQA and DIRAC are interesting and great but I would like the ability to adjust eq sound on certain recordings as Paul mentions. I do appreciate owning an amazing system and proper speaker set-up but the good old days were a lot of fun.
Set my vintage receiver to 0 on bass and treble and that's how I listen to vinyl. For my CD collection, I bought a $100 EQ and set 7500Hz at 11:00, and that really helps take some of the harsh brightness out of a lot of recordings. I also set 60Hz to 11:00 for some CDs that have the bass too robust. CDs that used to fatigue me no longer do. I no longer have to reach for the volume control when an upper-end instrument (alto sax, for example) comes on. Small tweak with huge ROI.
Bass 'n Treble are quite often necessary when you listen to vinyl recordings .... and yes early recordings and live musical broadcasts on FM radio did lack in top and bottom end response
Nice one Paul, with my YAMAHA RX-A3070 7.4.4 sound system, employing 4 subs, I have it dialled in so that my base is nearly on the verge of being boomy, with different recordings and bands, I'll go to base/treble control to teak it a little, normally only around 3db either way in some cases, like with The Cruel Sea band, their music has a lot of base, when the base is right, it sounds so good, or with AC⚡DC it can get a bit bright, so I turn the treble down a little, for me base/treble control still has it's place.
Huge range of opinion on this one but alot of good justification for tone controls here in the comments. Mr. Paul makes some statements I can agree with and a few I cannot. Context is really important here. His perspective seems to be based on only using REALLY nice audio equipment, in a well set up room, playing mostly excellent recordings, and he probably also has pretty good hearing. In that scenario, tone controls may not be needed or desired at all.
But for those of us who are not living in a perfect (or near perfect) high end audio world, tone controls, graphic eq's, or even parametric eq's can be a real blessing. They can sweeten or tame old or bad recordings, compensate for imperfect speakers or imperfect speaker placement, or just bad hearing. Not everyone is in a position to just go out and buy better equipment to solve these issues. Sometimes tone controls just make things sound better and more enjoyable to you. If you're not enjoying it, what's the point?
I'm sure the analogy has been used before but bass and treble to music is like salt and pepper to music. Sometime you want more salt. Sometimes more pepper. And sometimes the chef gets it just right, and youre happy just to enjoy the meal as is.
Most of the hifi EQ I've seen is pretty cheapo unless it's DSP. But in the world of recording, people pay out the a$$ for prized vintage EQs. I've always thought it would be cool if I could insert an outboard eq used for recording and mixing between preamp and my power amp. Especially something broad like a tube based like a Pultec to add "air" to the top end, or a Neve 1073 to finesse the mids, or an API 560 for when you need a scalpel. Would this even be possible? Would it be a problem of impedance matching?
I always found the EQ on my old Marantz 2230 to be useful to get the amp, the speakers and the room to mesh together. Now I have a much more resolving system that sounds great "au naturale" but still use the little Schiit Loki eq for certain tracks or genres that I find benefit from a little more of a v-curve.
I agree with you 100%. A decent system set up correctly sounds worse using the typical tone controls. Less live, less transparent more two dimensional. I may move my listening chair forward or back to get the balance right. In my 2014 Chevy pickup there are a few CDs I drop the bass a notch and boost the treble a notch. Basically one artist who I like probably the most but doesn’t know how to mix and one other cd, that’s it. Fader one notch towards dash speakers so image is in front unless windows are open and then it sounds best as the Bose engineers designed it. That’s on six full range Bose drivers with a Delco CD player. For a cheap car stereo it’s amazingly well engineered. Nothing but respect for Bose here. I don’t want to change vehicles and listen off my phone but I’ve got 250 k miles so I'm nursing it to the finish line.
A loudness button is great for listening at low volumes - based on the Munson curves. A treble dial is great to dial down any simblance in the recording. Not sure why you would need a bass dial, maybe to add some body to the recording
I prefer tone controls in case you need them ,but also a tone control defeat switch.
An RIAA preamp is a tone control circuit and also speaker crossovers are frequency shaped, so I can't get phased about them!
Just bought a new system (Cambridge CX) but using existing B&W speakers. It’s the first system I’ve had that has no tone controls or EQ. I have to say though, I’m not missing them at all, I think I’ve got it absolutely right. For me anyway!
Throws too much gain into the signal path which can add distortion as well as possibly sending your amp into clipping mode
As for loudness, i see the similar sense to use it, coz by guiet music and not sensitive speakers you simply can not hear deapest bass and highest trebles as by louder listening. It follows from human hearing physiology. But there is another problem: most of amplifiers has input sensitivity betwen 100-300mV, and CD outputs level is more than 1V, you must use Volume button in lowest possition and loudness works not correctly, basses and highs are overloaded...music ist distorted this way...Inputs attenuators or potentiometers can to correct it.
I hate loudness, the way it operates, my Dad's old Audio Reflex amp sounded crap without it (sounded like a transistor radio), midrange spikes at over half vol setting as loudness always does (on all makes). I collect old suitcase record players that have permanent loudness and I come across one without it, it sounded good without loudness, the vol pot didn't have the middle tap, I then turned off the loudness on the Realistic STA 130 amp and found I can enjoy listening w/o loudness
Finding equipment and speakers that work well with a multitude of genres and listening levels is impossible. I use a Behringer eq that I have set up to do this quite well. I do occasionally have to make minor adjustments, but it is more convenient than changing some part of my system to improve the sound. And it is particularly good at removing sibilance from horn speakers.
At 110dB with saturation on the bass it will kill a full range speaker, at the same time saturation on treble will do the same to the tweeter, in my humble opinion the basic eq high mid and bass can be really helpful on a DJ setup or just on a loud environment!! This will color your sound to still be loud but slightly “filtered” and keep your equalization for the next song or the next album!!
I use a combination of my technics graphic eq and my amp's bass and treble controls for me it's about getting the music how I want it to sound 👍.
Definitely need tone controls when listening to audio off TH-cam.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me to EQ for the room. Sound gets EQ'd going in, you may need to EQ on the way out.
I like to use a little bass on my system not treble sometimes to hear and to feel the fullness and body of a well recorded tune
I like the tone controls on all of my vintage Luxman preamps👍👍
At 3:26, sounds to me like the old Cello Audio Palette might be worth considering. For lots of cash!
I miss the rumble filter for my records back in the day
The TEC phono amps have sub filter
Introducing anything in the signal path can cause degradation. A properly designed equalizer can reduce, if not eliminate such degradation if it can be bypassed when not in use. The advantage to equalization, as you have pointed out, is that many recordings are less than optimally produced. Think of all the care that you take at Octave Records to this end and why you felt the need to create your own label in the first place. There are many fine performances out there that can benefit from a little signal tweaking. I don't see it to be any more detrimental than a poor recording is in the first place.
i hope not.... I use a center speaker (tube 1955) and it's nothing like my A/B Amp playing my Right and Left speakers or the Amp inside my Sub-Woofer.
..... trying to get the invisible band to appear when the equipment disappear.
..... using volume works to a degree, but all the equipment is different so TONE CONTROLS allow me to fake a CROSS OVER between the three different sources and their Amps.
A mixing board is mostly tone controls,Most so called engineers have hearing problem.You need tone controls to make up for bad recordings .Im glad I get all the music for free cause I would never pay for alot of this crap.You have every right to adjust the sound the way you want,does not matter what the so called artist intended
I use them for old speakers that need a bit of work as a crutch
It is nonsense that tone controls degrade sound in any manner - this is an archaic idea that was prevalent when high audio manufacturers decided they could make more profit by reducing functionality. I would ask Paul - does your soundboard in Octave studios have tone sliders? These days some of the best preamps (like my Luxman CL1000), as well as Accuphase, McIntosh, and Esoteric all include bass and treble controls (and some have midrange control). These are important for certain musical genres such as rock and techno, while classical music benefits from straight line input without tone controls.
what utter rot, adding any filter will degrade the signal..that is a physical fact
We are all different. I always say "if it sounds good to you, that's all that matters." What good is a pricey audio system if you don't like the way it sounds, right? Some people like red cars, some like blue. I think in the same categories about audio. It's a personal preference.
This is just the super charger Vs turbo debate. No what really matters, who finishes first on race day. I do like the fact you had to re-learn to like something you didn't at the start. I wouldn't have a clock radio without a EQ. I like control.
If you are listening guiet music, and you can not hear some bass or trebles as they are by louder listening, so in some cases you can help with bass&treble a little. But serious listening is usualy louder, and with balanced system, sensitive speakers you do not need it...
Now that's an idea. Having a DSP module that detects file Metadata, looks to a small database of gain and EQ profiles you've created and applies accordingly.
Oh that sounds wonderful! I really wish that was a thing already! Then never having to fine tune much if at all, everything just ends up eq’ing flat and then it’s just the speakers sounding how they’re meant to
It is subjective to each listener's taste. Paul thinks it unnecessary, I think it to be essential. I enjoy my music my way.
I only use a slight eq for my room and bad recordings. Otherwise good recordings don't need it.
If you have bad speakers Yes use them!
Agree 100% on everything you say in this video! I have said it before about you channel: it's so good to hear the voice of logic, in a field so full of BS...
I run my phono pre through a studio EQ that has a hardwire bypass, and I love it. I can restore the low end on so many 70's & 80's LPs and make them sound much better. If you think that's in some way disrespecting the artist's intent, I can assure you, the low end was lopped off so they could squeeze in more time per side...... The artist had no say in it.
The Dirty Deeds album sounded crap on both orig vinyl and tape, the remastered CD had more bass, although I don't like the CD format