Why do audiophiles avoid tone controls?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- Remember bass & treble controls? So easy to use, or bypass if they troubled with your purist tendencies.
Equalizers? Never embraced by the audiophile crowd, except for the Cello Palette and the Schiit Loki. The Cellos are vintage, but Loki equalizer is just $149, and it sounds great, www.schiit.com...
#highendaudio
No room is perfect, no equipment is perfect, no recording is perfect. Equalisers and tone controls are the remedy to get the sound we love from all these imperfections put together.
McIntosh who is not swayed by trendiness and does their own thing has never left Tone Controls... and thankfully so... no better way to adjust the sound of a room / volume stage situation than with a 5-8 band EQ... it's ridiculous to believe otherwise.
This exactly, except for the recording-part; I will equalize for the setup, whatever equipment in whatever room that might be, and then the recordings sound whatever they sound like. I'm personally not going to mess with the through the listening-setup. But, when I really like the album and just don't agree with its properties, then I will just "remaster" it myself, which I've done quite a bunch. - Like some records will just seriously lack low-end, whether that's because they were Vinyl-masters transferred to CD or just incompetent modern mixes. Others will lack clarity because of some serious roll-off or poor mixing. Others will have more intricate issues like drowned vocals or other details. - And yea, touching it up like that is way more involved than turning a knob, but I will only set up my system as "neutral" as I can get it, testing it with loads of content I know the characteristics of well, and not touch it unless I start realizing my system isn't rendering something properly. :)
Agreed
Very well said and explained. 😉👍🏽
Is they so choose , everyone could have their own INDIVIDUAL, PERSONAL tone control system , 'cause what you called imperfections might be somebody else's de light... AeLso in this, the land of the free, but for sure nobody should be propagandized, manipulated, hyped or, even less, be forced into controlling their tone...UNless their ears start bleeding, or something to that effect...Shema!!!
Perhaps if they weren’t called “Tone Controls “ but instead “Room Conditioners” then....hey presto...now acceptable.
How about "Audio Quality Elevators"? They'd sell in droves!
Then how about shelling out 'Room Comditioners' at around 5K to audiophiles, and watch them snap the, up....:-))
"Soundscape adaptive tech"
Doesn't work because room equalizing DSP units exist and audiophiles don't mess with those either.
@@NoiseStaticBlur I think we were trying to be ironic! :-)) x
Because they'd rather pay 5k for a cable to do the same thing
Lol, good one! Best comment!
Best comment :) lol
Lol funny but true
Indeed
Pssft pocket change my man 😂
I love great sound , but I'd rather be able to change my sound to my taste! All recordings are an illusion, audio is supposed to sound beautiful IMHO! The engineer tampers with the sound to give it dimension, and music sounds different in every environment! The recordings are all fake, why not enjoy YOUR sound!
recordings are not illusion. They are a mediated representation.
I agree! The notion of "as the composer intended" is somewhat of a myth. Listen how you like it.
I see this as something akin to interpreting poetry; the artist has some ideas of what his or her art represents, but each reader or listener is free to come to his or her own conclusions. Drawing from different experiences and perspectives than the writer may lead to ideas which are quite different from the writer's intentions, but which are equally valid. Something rather mundane to the writer might seem profound for a reader in a different time or context.
Also I agree with Vinyl City when he states that audio is supposed to sound beautiful. Why would one want poor-sounding recordings to be reproduced accurately? In my opinion a good place to start when building a music system is to make it sound listenable for sustained periods even with lesser recordings and then dial in more "accuracy" without losing the "sweetness".
Yes, please do enjoy your sound, and your own ideas of what this all means...
The recording isn't "fake", the recording is the recording, it is the way it is. It's a fixed entity by definition, it's a recording. - What's "fake", or an "illusion" is the way your perceive that recording. Like you said, the environment you're in, but also the equipment you use and how you use that equipment. - That's why we actually NEED control over the character-output, much like we need variable levels of output, as it needs to be adapted to the environment. - Imagine having a monitor, as in a screen, with no controls over its output. People would freak out because not everyone is in the same environment. Some need it to be brighter or less bright, some have different colors of light in the room. - It's not even about taste, it's about calibration and correction as well.
@@waylonkurts3938 The problem with that statement is that often the composer's intention isn't represented anyway. Many artists have no idea about mixing and mastering and what they experience in the studios will almost never end up on the recording anyway. - Yes, many will oversee and co-produce the records, because they're the artists after all, but considering how many records don't even sound that good, no way that's what they really intended. - On top of that, they're using completely different equipment from the consumer indeed, so indeed we couldn't even hear/experience it in the same way. - Look at Hans Zimmer's insane wall of speakers... Good for him with all his intentions of low-end rumble, but most of us won't experience that outside of the theaters.
IMO tone controls should have never went away. Don’t like them, run them flat. Tweaking is half the fun in being an audiophile.
Absolutely agree they have gone with the wind but never should have. That's why I use 80s pre-amps that give me a choice to use or defeat them.
flat sucks
McIntosh who is not swayed by trendiness and does their own thing has never left Tone Controls... and thankfully so... no better way to adjust the sound of a room / volume stage situation than with a 5-8 band EQ... it's ridiculous to believe otherwise.
I've come full circle. After 30 years of audiophile puritan views on tone controls, I've realized (with the help of full range electrostatics) that life is too short to suffer bad recordings. Bravo to Schiit audio!
Yet it was those bad recordings that your heard by following said audiophile puritan views, like you called them, that made you hear and find clarification as to what constitutes TO YOU a good rather than a bad sound in this fallen world of fidelity on High with ''all these imperfections '', like Rajendra Chittar in his comment called them...but nobody should ever be propagandized nor manipulated into controlling their tone, whether coming out of Schitt, Naim or Sony, since after all, what to you are ''bad recordings'' might be somebody else's de light...Shema!!!
I just bought a Schiit Loki
Kudos to Yamaha for still having tone controls on all their stereo amps
I really miss a loudness button that slightly boosts and brightens at lower volumes.
Yup, same here.
Luckily modern amplifiers with a DSP sometimes have features like loudness.
I had a MX 112 that best loudness button
Loudness is crap, esp the permanent type in small amplifiers and console grams and some suitcase RP's, it degrades when vol knob reaches past 60%, smiley curve becomes plateau curve, just use tone control or bass/treble controls, I personally un-wire the loudness caps in such equipment and have a vol control that is linear throughout the full rotation
vaughn tonkin The loudness contour changes because the ear equal loudness contour changes as a function of SPL, which is why it’s called a loudness control. I always used it on my Crown preamp as I often listened at different levels depending on the song. I don’t foresee it coming back however even with the standalone tone controls that are finally emerging. But it’s really nice to see some manufacturers address the need for simple tone controls, and actually improve them with some extra flexibility beyond the classic bass and treble controls.
@@StewartMarkley I hate the way the tone curve changes when vol ctrl goes past 6/10, I like the vol control to be a straight potetiometer without loading caps dictating the response, I do use bass & treble controls to fix the sound, the vol knob doesn't dictate the response according to position without LN button engaged, on midget amps that have full time loudness, I get in there and rip it out, again giving the amp uniform response throughout the vol knob range
I understand the "piece of wire with gain" philosophy, but love tone controls and equalisers too :D
Speaking of equalizers, I miss the equalizer set up that JVC had in the 80s.
I wish there was an easy "tone defeat" button for rental cars. Every time I rent a car the bass is always set to the max. First thing I have to do in a rental car is fix that.
Yeah same here! And it is..it's always at max..sometimes the treble too..I'll bet whoever rents it after me thinks this idiot didn't know he could increase the bass...
Here I thought I was the only one fidgeting with audio controls before leaving the rental car lot
@@jortx I don't rent cars, but I always have to readjust the controls after I let the boy drive my car. Even if he's just going to pick up something at the store.
In the 80's I used tone controles. Then in the 90's I was told they were bad. "If you need tone controles, there's something wrong with your system." Ok. Fine. So, no tone controles in the 90's and 2000's. But recently (within the last 2 years) I've gone back to using them on an as needed basis. As you pointed out, they can help with a poor recording, but also with room acoustics, and of course, they help my modest system sound a little more enjoyable.
I think tone controls were in vogue during the 60s - 80s because albums after becoming worn hissed and scratches, so the tone control came in handy to damp that down!!
@@falungongboy They also had rumble/scratch switches that have 12dB/octave roll off
I like units with a tone control bypass. When not needed no sense being added to the path.
You mean the signal goes through less stuff. Maybe get some of those expensive FR drivers and no crossover. Going through less stuff. Maybe that's why audiophiles don't have much on the floor when it comes to amplifiers and preamps and DAK stuff etc. etc.
All speakers aren’t the same people listening aren’t the same so tone controls should be there listeners might not like the sound coming out but when they can adjust it it’s wonderful
Great subject, Steve. Prior to your short review of the Loki, I was very much in the “straight wire with gain” school of listening. Well, recently I was in California visiting my son and his family. My son and I being huge fans of Schiit gear, he and I along with his audiophile friend made the trek to visit Schiit’s audio store called the Schiiter (...no Schiit) just to look around. Jason Stoddard’s friend and long time employee gave us a demo of HIS favorite piece of Schiit gear, the Loki. Needless to say, we were so impressed with what this seemingly simple device was capable of, we each bought a Loki. For the audiophile nay sayers, I only have to say, for $150 it’s silly NOT to give the Loki a try. Yes, while we may well believe the recording engineer knows best, there are many other factors to consider when we are playing back that “perfect” recording on our HiFi system at home in OUR listening environment. The loudness we are playing back this recording, the less than perfect acoustic space, the sometimes imperfect match between our phono cartridge and preamp, not to mention poor RIAA equalization of many older records, magnetic tape degradation, overly bright older CDs, time of day, etc., etc. The list could go on an on and my comment is way too long already. Cheers, Steve!
I find that if the Loki is left on all day it gets kind of hot. Do others find this so?
If you go to hear live amplified music there is always a modifier whether it be the PA, venue or the mixing desk and its operator so for me it is pointless to sweat the small stuff when it ccomes to listening to recorded music for home entertainment. It is a rabbit hole I could dive down given enough money, it would involve hiring the musicians and someone to design and build a acoustically brilliant venue for them and me.
So tone controls seem like something I could live with on audiophile gear. It would be interesting to hear the opinions of musican.
Yes and your speakers, their position, etc.
Penns Woody, absolutely!
Michael Schroeder Great response Michael. Loved your references to Schiit in your language. About the demise of tone controls, the coined phrase “a straight wire with gain” may be what put the nail in the tone controls coffin. The so called sophisticated but uneducated (audio engineering related) audiophiles jumped on it and the manufacturers followed suit, so that was the end of the tone controls. Very good examples in why we should want them. Thanks for a well thought out response.
As a live sound engineer, Tone controls are useful for treble heavy speakers that are bright or bass that is super boomy, I like to cut rather than boost frequencies and only by 3db to 6db 👍would love to hear others input.
That is the trip. Most people ADD here and there. Sometimes taking away can improve a recording.
Who in their right mind wouldn't want tone controls? People will use room correction and all kinds of crap but no tone controls. It boggles my mind.
Because I want a natural sound the way it was intended from the producer, also many amplifiers like mine doesnt even have any tone controls. But of course it's fine for those who likes to be able to tweek the sound a little bit, as long as they are satisfied is all that matters :)
@@artfartzy I am pretty sure the producers don't have your system so you'll never get the same experience they did while mixing the music.
@@petestowne But I will have it the way it was recorded ;)
Room correction seeks to reduce the effect of the room and objectively bring the sound at the listening position closer to that recorded/created by the engineer; tone controls can conceivably fulfill a similar purpose in the hands of an expert ear, but are less effective at his goal. They are, however, effective (by definition) at adjusting the sound to personal preference, and there's nothing wrong with that. Still, I wouldn't conflate room correction with tone controls, necessarily.
@@artfartzy You'll have it "the way it was recorded" whether you use EQ or not. What you won't have is what the engineer heard when they mastered the music. You can try if you get the same equipment they used and try to replicate their listening room. Or, you can try to treat your room to make most music sound good in a way that may seem realistic to you. Otherwise, we are only guessing at what the music was meant to sound like.
Comments so far seem to be in favour of tone controls,, I've got em,,👍
McIntosh who is not swayed by trendiness and does their own thing has never left Tone Controls... and thankfully so... no better way to adjust the sound of a room / volume stage situation than with a 5-8 band EQ... it's ridiculous to believe otherwise.
It was a con by the manufacturers to lower costs but make so called audiophiles think they were getting more. The "purists" say that you do not need them even if one "purist" has a minimalist room almost all hard surfaces and one chair and the other "purist" has carpets curtain and ten chairs. There would be a massive difference in sound but both "Purists" would claim it was perfect.
i don’t buy anything without tone controls !
I totally agree with the tone controls...These settings really enhance and improve the listening experience. For example when I listen to classical music, I usually increase the bass level and sometimes the trebles to hear the orchestra much better (depending the sound quality of the CD I am going to listen to), and when I listen to rock music I lower the bass a little bit, so I can hear the higher tones, the instruments, the voice, and all the details a little bit clearer and better. It's a very useful feature the modern audio systems have that actually helps me a lot.
4:10 In the late 1970s, the 1980s, and the early 1990s. Most mid-priced hi-fi systems (From about $2,500 to about $7,500 in 2019 dollars.) had a separate amplifier, a preamplifier, and an EQ. normally 5-band to 32-band for graphic-equalizers, and 3-band to 12-band for parametric-equalizers. So what was in one component in the 1950s, the 1960s, and the early 1970s was now in 4 or 5 components. (The reverb, dynamic expansion, and other effects, plus the radio tuner, would also each be it's own component.) When surround-sound became popular they started putting the radio tuner, amplifier, preamp, EQ, and effects all back into one component.
I have med fi stuff and I make (med fi) speakers and I hate using tone controls cos it fucks up the voice sound (that I delicately crafted). Other than that I can simulate the amount of bass&treble I want and then try to repeat that with the crossover. Tone controls are useful for that. Funny how a speaker with no inductors on the bass aren't very responsive to bass boost. Like +10 db bass boost without inductors is like only about +2 db bass boost with inductors. And I don't really need tone controls cos I only listen to good recordings and I can make my speakers sound just how I want. And I try for a balance in bass&treble intensity, so half the recording are too much one way and the other half too much the other way (and a small percent just right). You can't tell from the good recordings but from a average of all recordings and getting that 50/50. lol And it's hard.
When I started out in HiFi (this was in Europe) and bought my first components; in the 80's, Britain was, at least to me, the pinnacle of audio-design and knowledge, and there, it was all about "pure"; pure signal, as little "manipulation" as possible, as clean a signal as could be mustered, from source to speaker. So Amps like The Cyrus, or Onix were developed; on-off, input, volume: that was it! And we had small bookshelf speakers on huge stands and our turntables were simple; often you had to take it apart to change the speed (if it was possible at all!) and CD-players were tweaked endlessly; from the factory (Ishiwata and others) and by us, the users; taking them apart and putting in ring-deadening materials, painting the inside of the whole box, etc.. Not to mention cryo-treating the CD's themselves, and also painting the outer edge of the CD's with green marker.. it was all about maximising the output of "pure" signal from the source; we wanted to hear it like it was "intended"! So tone controls got a bad name; they distorted the TRUTH!! Now I realise there's no such thing as THE TRUTH so am happy to play around with sound-modes on my av-receiver to make things sound palatable; whatever makes me disappear into the music!! So absolutely; bring on the tone controls; digital, analogue; whatever floats your boat and helps your listening environment sound good!!
BirdArvid You grew up and got wiser!
I'm lucky enough to live about five minutes from the Schiit store on Market Street in Santa Clarita, CA. I was there for several hours yesterday talking to one of the founders (fantastic guy) He gave me an incredible demo of the Loki, and to make a very long story short, it blew me away. Even on a 1970 Carpenters CD the Loki made that recording sound alive. You could hear Karen Carpenter's lips forming the words. The sonic experience was like the difference between a 1970's TV and a flat-screen OLED. There was that much of a difference in clarity and imaging. Even on a Rat Pack live CD, I could hear the atmosphere of the room. Dean Martin was alive and singing right in front of me. It was almost holographic. Then we switched to acoustic guitar. The metal sound of the strings rubbing against the fingers was magical. For each selection, the Loki was turned off and then on. You suddenly realize how flat and boring most recordings are when the Loki is disengaged. When it's suddenly turned back on every cut is alive again. I've gone on way too long, and there is so much more to say, but I'll just say that I'm excited to purchase one and hear everything I've been missing.
As we get older we tend to lose the higher frequencies of sound. Our hearing becomes limited and it is harder to hear the top end of the audible spectrum. An amp with tone controls enables you to combat this by turning up the treble response and perhaps also turning down the bass.
This is why I’m after an EQ. Gotta bring the mids and highs up!
I have a roll off in the highs and im only 18 y old i also have slight stres tinitus so i love to boost the higs but i also like my bass
Tone controls they say degrade the sound so if you need to alter the bass you buy a interconnect to suit. Problem is you need about 5 different flavors of interconnects because they all add a different tone to the music. You need to keep switching interconnects for diferent tracks. i know it seems like a lot of hassle but thats the only way round it. I gave up and bought an amp with tone controls saved a lot of bother.
Yes, yes. I want to ENJOY what I'm listening to, if some old recording has irritating, squeaky, highs, or is all muddy, I'd love to be able to dial it in, or at least make it not irritating. Thx Steve
Just look at the massive response on this topic!! 300 in just first half of the day. Manufacturers take note!! People want tone controls. I want GOOD SOUNDING tone controls! I use studio EQ's in my system because most tone controls in consumer hi-fi really don't sound that good. We need adjustable turnover frequencies too.... Like 80 & 120 for Bass, and 8k & 12k for Treble... for example. On a previous NAD preamp, the tone controls were dreadful and I did not use them. I now use a 6-band mastering EQ with wide bands & a hardwire bypass.
20Hz and 20kHz?... Those are indeed strange points to want to alter. But I assume that their range (or "Q") would be kind of wide, so cover more frequencies around those. Or perhaps the outer ones are even shelves, like they start at 20Hz and roll off towards 100-120Hz and from 20kHz down to 10-15k. - That would make more sense anyway. - But even other (smaller) multi-band equalizers today, whether it's hardware or software, kind of stop at 30-50Hz at the low-end and usually 16kHz at the high-end.
Good point! Having worked mixing live sound, EQ is part of the equation. Every channel of a mixing console whether it is analog or digital has individual tone controls. As far as I am concerned it can be part of being an audiophile. SAE Made parametric EQ,s that were great. There are many EQ’s in the musicians, commercial install and recording engineers Marketplaces. Why not in 2 channel audiophile systems.
We are in an age of convenience over quality. People want to get there "A/V systems" up and running without bothering to read their manuals. Plug and play. That's it.
They will adjust the hell out of their phones but a 65in tv or a receiver? No way. They won't even touch the menu buttons-EVER!!!
Good riddance to tone controls. Never use them. The salt and pepper of tonal adjustment. Having to re-equalize for every source is a pain, and they never do quite what you want. You mention the Audio Pallete, and yeah, if I could have something of that quality I'd probably go for it. But that was ten grand. Or possibly a parametric eq, like SAE used to make.
Everyones ears are different. Every listening environment is different and everyones music preferences are different. So, while not a high end listener but an enthusiast, I still have to say having a component equalizer or built in equalizer program only makes sense.
In the early 70s I bought a lot of Pioneer upper level stuff while in Okinawa, including a manual slide equalizer with microphone, 24 or 32 frequency slider controls (I forget). Later on I bought a Techniques EQ with manual plus pre sets, a more complete control set and a hanging microphone plus test tones on a Cassette to calibrate the whole thing. Like it perfectly flat? No problem. Need to offset the heavy drapes in a room full of windows with carpet? No problem. Can it help with wood floors and paneled walls in an old turn of the century home? Yes.
I enjoyed them immensely, and my son has all that equipment and enjoys them now. My current AV setup has built in programs for different types of response, music and environments, almost too many to use. I tailor the sound to my wife preference to hear voice clearly or my preference for a fuller more robust theater sound. Thankfully, I can have what I want.
Im a 29 band altec equalizer guy. I leave everything flat while designing the speaker, but when Im tired of tinkering with the crossovers I bring in the EQ!! Lazy I guess
My Yamaha A-S1000 integrated has bass/treble controls but I never feel a need to adjust them. I personally found the tone controls never improve the sound. However, my dad with his older ears will occasionally request some treble boost.
I would argue against tone controls as follows. (1) your software/media/stream has an issue. (2) your room acoustic has an issue. (3) your speakers have an issue. (4) speaker placement in room has an issue.
If you can avoid these, you don't need a tone control.
Audiophiles do not avoid tone controls. That behavior is reserved for manufactures and audio-fools. Here is the simple truth .. Back over 40 years ago pots were not what they are today, as well as other alternatives for controlling the level of tones, that did not even exist at the time. If you have tone controls run a simple test - listen to your rig flat, and then add some bass and treble, do you hear the introduction of any audible nasties? This is where the rubber meets the road and this is all that matters. Any component built in the last twenty years or longer, will not introduce any noise. And even if they did, how easy to solve the problem with a simple bypass circuit.
We all have different rooms, rigs, sources, recordings and even ears. So yes, it should be obvious that we need tone controls. At least if you are an audiophile and not an audio-fool.
Interesting fact is that it is cheaper to build a pre or integrated without controls than with controls, ask yourself who benefits from this fact? Now ask yourself who continues to perpetuate the false narrative that tone controls are not what you want, that they cause sonic problems, and everyone knows real audiophiles would never use them?
Is the picture starting to clear up? This is yet another example of how the Mafia HiFi Gang (industry) goes about their business. The Loki runs quite and works well for a full retail price of $150.00. It most likely cost around $50.00 to make, but that is too much for manufactures to invest in supplying a quality product for their customer base when they can save $50.00 .. In true HiFi Industry fashion they will play you, lie to you, and then laugh about how stupid you are.
And now you have heard the rest of the story.
Recordings are mixed to the engineers or whomevers ear it may not be the listiners liking so no access to tone controls are kinda foolish, imo what it boils down to is the elitist ego of certain "audiophiles" to show there more of a sophisticated connoisseur of music that want there music uncolored and as pure as the original recording, well that's absurd unless you think the person mixing the original is a GOD with recording & mixing gear sent down from the heavens from God himself... I like my music soooooo clean and pure you can't even hear it! Now that's a true audiophile!!! You know how much you need to spend for a system thats so pure you can't hear anything at all even with the most elite exotic measuring equipment? millions!!! Lol my rant for the day...sorry
I miss my first amplifier, it had tone controls, balance and variable loudness. I loved to play around with them, but usualy i kept my amplifier in Direct mode, to bypass all that shit. And get pure audiophile music : )
My thoughts about their acceptance for some is sort of like the analogy of going to a fine French restaurant ordering a fancy expensive dish, and then adding some condiment to the dish.. No one does that, it's an insult to the chef. He knew what taste he wanted to you experience with the dish and you would insult him and the dish by adding your own seasoning and condiment.
I think the rejection of tone control or eq is a false sense of distorting the signal when the signals are already a distortion of what the live experience was at the time of the recording. As Steve mentioned, recording engineers do all kinds of equalization, compression, and other sound modifications to try to get a desired sound, so what's the difference if you do it when you're playing back the sound to perhaps help a poor quality recording or playback technology, correct for a room, or some other aspect of rig? Perhaps I'm not an authentic audiophile because what I want to do is to find the optimal sound for the system and then not have to tinker with it for individual recordings. I don't mind tinkering to get a general optimal setup, but it's not my thing to have to constantly adjust it. I feel like I have better things to do with my time that constantly fuss over tone controls / eq for every piece of music.. It would drive me nutz. But that's just me. To each his or her own.
I RUN A PARAMETRIC EQ AND BASS AND TREBLE ON C4 PREAMP THEN A GOOD 10 BAND YAMAHA EQ!!!!!! SOUNDS AWESOME THRU ALTEC HORNS !!!! DEFEAT BUTTONS ARE NEVER EVER ON !!!!! NEVER !!!!!
Even when I had equipment with tone controls, they were usually set "straight up" or "flat" anyway. Just sounded best that way to me. My new stuff (PS Audio) has no tone controls, and they sound awesome!
My hearing is so poor that I wear hearing aids... my hearing is far from perfect. I find that an equalizer can bring my different headphones closer to what sounds good to me. It helps make up for the most imperfect part of my system... my ears.
eq tones control will slow down hi end sales...i luv my hifi system sound which cost over 150k only play with my behringer eq
I've used both. With and without. I suppose they wouldn't be really necessary if all recordings were perfectly engineered. Some recordings have too much of one thing or not enough of the other.
DSP is the new EQ :) ... at least for the digital audiophiles. And they can do more than just EQ.
I don't understand the notion of purist. How does one know If the amp and speakers, they own, are giving them the sound which the artists and the engineers had in mind? And who can say that one system is more pure than another, since every amp and speaker combo has its own sound? There has to be hundreds of speaker/amp combinations. Tell me how you know which one is the purist.
I'm still using the Sansui integrated amplifier I bought in the summer of 1972, and I'm so glad it has tone controls! My room, in the house I've been in for the last year, is pretty bright, and I just haven't had the energy to fix that, yet. Add some bass. I'm happy.
Everything is a signal modification. Everything.
Changing your speakers. Changing your cables. Changing your power supply. Changing the angle of the speakers. Changing your sitting position. Changing the speaker height. Changing the room treatments. Every single thing is an effort to tweak the signal before it lands in your ears in a way that sounds better to you.
EQ is no different and I think the people that eschew it are just looking to justify their decisions to themselves. We inherently don't want to admit we made a poor decision, so when faced with that prospect we'd rather rest on our laurels than re-evaluate. "I can't believe I wasted $10K on these speakers when I could have just used a touch of EQ on the old ones" becomes "I would never want even a touch of EQ to impact the purity of my $10K speakers".
I had my McIntosh C11 up and running and I loved it, then an audiophile friend of mine told me about how there is just too much circuitry in it and I should get something with no tone controls as to minimize interference with the pure signal. I followed the logic and bought a new preamp. I used it for about 8 years and man did I miss those tone controls. I eventually went back to the C11 and never turned back. To say tone controls are not necessary is to assume that every piece of recorded music is absolutely perfect and in no need of adjustment. I think that is kind of ridiculous. I have tone controls and 95% of the time I leave them centered, but that 5% has come in handy like when my downstairs neighbor complains that my bass is too loud. Bring back tone controls to high end audio!!
McIntosh who is not swayed by trendiness and does their own thing has never left Tone Controls... and thankfully so... no better way to adjust the sound of a room / volume stage situation than with a 5-8 band EQ... it's ridiculous to believe otherwise.
Less is more with regards to the signal path. I've got an old Pioneer SG9800 that has sat on a shelf for decades. I can't say its ever been usefull.
I don't use them on my Sansui but they are there, I keep them at 12 o'clock flat. My speakers are too sensitive and if I boost the bass it gets too boomy and if I boost the treble, the highs are harsh!
Music without tone control is like food without salt and pepper.
I use a Loki in my system,it's nice to have the ability to use or not use Tone Controls. Consist of Hovland,Proceed and Maggie 1.7i.
Yes, I fell victim to that "straight wire with gain" attitude. I am - as of recently - trying to break myself of that. Bass, Midrange, Treble, and Loudness controls compensate for minor problems.
Your room ruins everything, so adjusting things can bring you closer to the ideal of the straight wire with gain.
@@richardellard Yep. That is why I like having all those controls.
@@richardellard That is SO true. My TV room (quite small size wise) is a great example of sound destruction.
Without equalization I would not listen to 99% of the music I have. Most recording production is crap!
Even among artists there is huge variation. Rush sounded ok with Terry Brown from late 70’s to around 1984.
Then they began to sound like shit! Thanks to the “digital” age.....producers like Rupert Hine essentially destroyed the production values. Compare Roll The Bones with say an album like Hemispheres and you’ll know what I am talking about.
Some artists are pretty consistent and know a thing or two about solid production. Steven Wilson comes to mind!
In any event, no one is going to tell me tone controls are unnecessary.
I fuck with my eq settings all the time....... and it’s how I like it. I’m always in search of the perfect sound and that changes based on a lot of parameters!
Without eq......I’d be a goner!!!
Hi Steve, yes you are absolutely correct that "purists" think it is taboo to mess with tone controls because it represents a barrier between the source and the listener a.k.a audiophile. I find a happy medium by "allowing" myself to use my tone control to compensate for whatever source of music I am playing that perhaps fall short of whatever musicality I am hoping to achieve. It's OK to admit it...hahah.
Knobs & Meters!, Knobs & Meters!, Knobs & Meters! 🤩🤩🤩
I simply seek out vintage equipment - back when the manufactureers considered those controls normal and perhaps even essential. I especially like the Luxman L 480 integrated amplifier I have that offers further specific frequency cuts via some toggle switches. Even a loudness switch is uncommon, great for very low level listening. I find the Vincent SV 236 MK one of the few modern integrated amps that also feature tone controls. There are many times I have to use them to some degree due to what a recording lacks. I have been entertaining purchasing a Loki as well.
The Loki is part of my headphone set-up (Schiit Modi 3 -> Schiit Loki -> Schiit Magni 3) and I love it!
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I’m treble sensitive (and a bit sound sensitive), which means I listen at relatively low volumes. The Loki allows me to boost the bass a bit so that my music sounds full even at low volumes.
Exactly if your an audiophile your supposed to change gear not turn knobs to get your sound right.
@@Montreal_Audio_Systems That's funny, but you're completely right.
I use Dirac room correction software which could be considered a tone control.
When I first got into high fidelity in the late 1960s, My first system was an Allied Radio Knight 44 watt amplifier Model 940A. It had tone controls and a "Contour" switch which is the same as today's "loudness" controls. It was a basic tube design with 6BQ5 output tubes. I was into the "purist" idea of always listening with the controls centered (flat). The problem was that when set for flat, you needed to listen at rather high volume to get decent sound. I live in a duplex now and I can only play loud if my neighbor is not home. I tend to play at a lower volume a lot of the time and the tone controls are a MUST.
I would NOT buy a product that doesn't have tone controls in the preamp section. I also use a ten band per channel octave equalizer (Biamp model EQ/210) to adjust for the roll off of the low bass that is specified to be down 3 db at 30 Hz. As well as adjustment for the room.
My current system is centered around a Marantz 3300 preamplifier and Marantz model 250 power Amp, driving Acoustic Research AR-3a speakers. Also included is a Thorens TD 125 turntable with a Rabco SL-8E tone arm.
My biggest question! I don't understand the disdain some have for tone controls. I do not hear highs as well as other music lovers, probably from playing in bands in the '70's and '80's, so I like treble controls. I don't think that is "coloring" the music.
I know I am late to the party as this video was posted over a year ago, but here are my thoughts regarding tone controls. I have no problem with having or using tone controls. If you have them, you don’t have to use them, but if you want or need to use them, they are there. Being honest and up front about it, I process the hell out of everything I listen to. Many of my preamps have multiple bass and treble controls with different center frequencies. You also have to understand that most of my equipment is vintage from around 1956, up through the “golden age of audio” so nothing that would be considered to be ultra high end audio. I’m talking about things like my Pioneer SX-1980 type equipment and speakers like the Altec Lansing Model 19’s. I also utilize an active audio processor that has both a dynamic range expander and a set of variable notch filters which can be varied to control the roll in and out points and sensitivity. Depending on the system I am listening to, I frequently have a 12 to 20 band graphic equalizer engaged with a spectrum analyzer monitoring the signal and (heaven forbid) a reverb unit. Sacrilegious in most all high end audio circles. I use all these things as I have a number of rooms with complete audio systems in them, each with different preamps, power amps (some tube, but mostly transistor), different speakers and room placements. Every system sounds different, but can be adjusted to suite my tastes. After all the only true to live performance sound is in fact a live performance. Every recording studio is different as is every live concert hall. Anything you listen to in your home is sound “reproduction”, not sound production. It has be altered by the recording engineer, RIAA equalized (if it’s on vinyl) with any number of other tweaks and compensations. No recording engineer could possibly know in advance what room acoustics, speakers, speaker placement or components I am going to be using to listen to what has been recorded. So as a member of the group of the highest level thinking creatures on this planet (humans), I reserve the god given right to turn any knob, move any slider or use any method to make the sound from my home system sound the way I like it. After all, I am the only one who has to be pleased with the sound. No one else. My home, my system, my rules! :-)
I use the tone controls on my Sansui 3000A receiver and use an Optimus 10 band equalizer with it. There are always some adjustments that can be made to your environment to get the sound you like.
I guess those that don’t like tone controls don’t trust their ears? Or they don’t want to think about what could be improved and just listen to what’s provided by their system.
I've got an 8 band eq on my Mac preamp, I've never touched it, haha. Not that I wouldn't, I've just not yet cared to measure the systems in-room response yet so I could correct for it. It's also a purity thing, I feel there's some benefit to keeping all those pots out of circuit. Our brains will except the room response and tune it out IMO.
Only an audio fool does away with tone controls. TONE COTRO;S OR BUST! PERIOD!
I'm thrilled with what my Loki has done for my home setup. Now I wish I could cough up the cash for more of them haha
I also avoid them because my Aura has no tone controls.Actually, i don't need them because the sound is just great.
I wish they would bring back the balance control. Easier to turn a knob than moving furniture around to get the sweet spot in the room
I cannot live without my tone controls, as each recording is different and many sound engineers and producers making the recordings just miss the point, so many times to get closer to the sound I enjoy, I have to boost or reduce certain elements of the sound, if you appreciate audio to a very high level, then you have to listen to the music the way you want to hear it, then you are happy, which is all that matters. IMHO
I love having tone controls, at least basic like bass and treble. I would love to see more manufactures bring them back as long as if it is fully bypassed.
Yamaha amps have tone controls with and a pure direct mode that bypasses the tone controls
My optimus equalizer has bypass, comes in handy to compare changes!!
I grew up with Pioneer's 'Loudness'.I couldn't live without it. When CDs became the rage, I stopped using Loudness and felt it wasn't necessary anymore. A few weeks ago, I bought a pair of old Castle Warwick speakers for 70 Euro and quite frankly, I was very impressed with them, but I noticed they produced 'elevated highs' on certain recordings or music genres. So for the first time in decades (!!!) I'm using Tone Control to change the sound, not to boost bass or treble, but to reduce it (the treble, in this case). And the Castle speakers sound pretty amazing because of it.
I have A Pioneer SX-780 and Sansui 551,5050 and a gorgeous G2000.The loudness switch always stays engaged on every unit.Always.
I was taught that room acoustic design combined with a pink noise generator, calibrated mic with frequency display graph and multi-band eq rig was key to getting the best flat audio reproduction (back in the 70s) ... was that wrong? I experienced Trinity Colleges Listening Theater when they added an incredible 70mm projection and matching sound system, just for Apocalypse Now and a few other 70mm movies, back then. It was amazing! You were IN the movie! But I knew where to sit ... 12th row, center where they had used a n-echoing head to calibrate the system (with a full theater of volunteers, of course!). That was sound!!! You could feel the choppers approaching before you could hear them. The only thing missing was the sense of smell. LOL
I like my Shiit Loki at low volume but bypass when cranked up
Like a loudness control.
I respect that ;-)
@@carlitomelon4610 Could be said because at higher volume the Loki made little to no difference
As an audiophile snob I too hate the idea of tone controls BUT since my apartment has no carpeting and the walls are made of vibranium I have no choice but to get a Schiit tone control device. GOD, FORGIVE ME!!
Vibranium! Haha
A thing I do see in the recent years is amplifiers with some tone-controls, but then also a bypass-switch. I suppose that's for the purists (also considering the word "pure" is often used for the switch), those who think their speakers are "perfect" and nothing should change that. But I personally see it more as a "comparison switch". For example, right here I have a headphone-amplifier, nothing high-end, but not that cheap either, and it has a "pure" setting that bypasses the 3-band EQ as well. All it does is show me how "bad" the headphones are unaltered. - And that's another thing; No speakers/headphones I've ever listened to, regardless of the price, were ever cutting it stock. I've found I always need to tweak them with an equalizer to actually get them "flat" or "neutral". At least "well balanced" if you don't like those words. - I've started using "bass" and "treble" settings on speakers to attenuate the low and high ends, whether they're too little or too much on any given speakers. Usually it's that I need to turn up both to compensate for any lack and I stop at the point right before it sounds like "too much". - A more critical thing then is that the mid-range should be good, as without a "mid"-control you can't do much about it.
Midrange is attenuated when bass and trebble are boosted, don't you think?
It's amazing how "audiophiles" are revulsed by "coloration" devices but then go on to spend thousands on speakers or DACs or tubes that produce that exact coloration their ears tell them is correct. Multi track recording techniques are artificial manipulations of sound in the studio. There are very few pure live organic recordings that are not manipulated electronically. So go ahead and buy a sonic maximizer if you think it makes your music sound better.
Some thumbs up! Crossovers are worse than equalizers but most people do have the first. My way is to keep it simple as far as it's reliable and leave the rest to the EQ. I have broadband speakers in open baffle as long as my basshorns aren't ready and they sound great, the contrabass sounds as if playing in my room thanks to my EQ. By the way: Can you please recommend some "pure live organic recordings"?
I would die without my bass and treble controls.
I use the tone defeat function on my Denon two-channel receiver for a purer signal path. But then I use a tube buffer between my DAC and the receiver, so what do I know? :)
As do i
Try a Douk Nobsound Tube Pre btw a cd player and preamp. Seems like I get great gain and tone adjustment. The best $50 I have ever spent.
I have a senucn-audio with riverstone tubes. Unit is commonly called Tube t1
I'm Bluetooth into the tube via single end to 3.5 into a fiio Btr3. I'm Golden for sound vs value... ✨👍
they are not making tone controls any more. Is it to cuts costs? ignorance of the Fletcher Munson curve? Assuming that all sound engineers get it right all the time? I can't listen to any type of music without the option to use them. Some recordings are not absolutely flat. Some rock recordings were mixed with Yamaha monitors that accentuate the midrange. It's useful to have a defeat position so the listener has A CHOICE.
Few people mention Fletcher Munson, thank you!
I have tone controls. I have the Loki by schiit. For the most part they're left close to flat. But since I can't afford crazy $2K + headphones I feel it helps me better compensate for any lacking response in the headphones I do own.
I like them. I use them. Old Marantz stuff used to have a midrange tone control I Addison to base and terrible.
😀
I have a CD called "The Best of Earth Wind and Fire" and it's nicely recorded but lacks bass by like -8 db. lol But when you turn the bass to +8 db the bass sounds fantastic, not "woolly" like bass boosts tend to do. Well recorded bass on the CD but hopelessly lacking.
Good ol' Steve ... you gotta love him !
He's opposite of Paul ...
I made a pro grade pre amp and it has a little button on the front panel that simply re routes the signal path via an active tone network if the signal needs adjustment...
Do you mean you have all the knobs shielded and only the bypass-switch on front? Please explain. I'm about to build an Elliott-EQ these days, esp Project 75.
Great video, Steve. Honestly, I am spoiled with the wonderful tone controls on my 70's Sansui and Pioneer receivers so I really didn't even know that people weren't accessing them as much. Once I have them set to my preferred sound, I kind of guard them and tell people "Don't touch those! Stay 3 feet back from the receiver!" I think that each speaker pairing with a specific unit is unique, so I could never do without tone controls.
My system has no tone controls yet I'm always perfectly happy with the sound! This maybe because I have 12" drivers and prefer the bass more pronounced or that I'm just used to it after decades of ownership! Either way I have no issues with tone controls "Whatever gets you through the night!"
Mcintosh still has tone control on all of our preamps except for the C1100.
For me tweaking means getting the speakers set in the right place. After that, i want to hear as close to what was intended as possible so...... don’t have tone controls and I’ve never missed them.
Everyone is using an equalizer, called "room gain"...
I like tone controls. Makes listening fun
As a former recording engineer who used a parametric EQ constantly during the recording process, and gave his finished product to a mastering engineer that would also tweak the EQ. Audiophiles (myself included) are equal to everybody else in the chain. So go ahead, add a little more bass, put a dip in the mid-range, and be a part of the recording. After all I did make the recording for you.
My personal opinion is equaliser definitely deserves a place in a setup.
Equalizers (not tone controls) are the damnedest things to use. The problem is every change produces a phase shift. Every change sounds like it's a change for the better but, it never sounds quite right... until you hit the defeat button.
I don’t have them on my pre amp but sometimes I wish it had something as there is some bad recordings out there.
I love the nice graphic equalizer on my older JVC SR-301 receiver. For me It’s a useful tool. For me it is acceptable! 👍🏻 “to each it’s own”.
I have just sold my "Audiophile Modern Equipment" and went back to vintage audio. One of the main reasons was tone control, especially at different volumes. Since COVID, my wife works at home, so I cannot listen to music at louder volumes like I did before. I found with my Usher speakers that they really needed power to come alive. At low volumes, they just did not sound full and proper as powered by the Rega Aethos. When connected to my Harmon Kardon 930, I was able to add a Contour (loudness) and boost the tones so that the sound is full at very low listen volumes. Then there is the challenge of my room which includes a Livingroom, dining room, large hallway, entrance to kitchen and stairway to the basement. The room itself acts like an equalizer, but outside of my control. I find that I quite enjoy having the ability to change that using my HK 930 combined with an EQ8 to compensate for my room and also the listening volume level. I also adjust for older recordings, tapes and cassettes to enhance my listening pleasure. I now believe that if you have a dedicated listening area designed for sound, and only listen to amazing recordings, then the Class A/B approach without tone adjustments would be desirable. I guess it comes down to what you enjoy and I am finding now that I am enjoying the music, all of it, without regard to the recording quality since I can easily adjust the sound to make it more enjoyable to my ears in my listening environment. Now its all about the music :)
I always Liked Luxman's take on tone controls, and one thing I sometimes bring in from the studio world is the old hardware version of the BBE Sonic Maximizer that makes all dull recordings sound fantastic again, but that one is more timing control than tone control...
I always automatically set the bass high and then the treble up a little bit as a kid but didn’t really know what I was doing, the stereo we had with an equaliser on it we just turned all them all the way up to make it louder as it was a rubbish stereo.
Nowadays I guess the level of recording equipment is so advanced they can get the recording exactly as they wanted it so I guess we are listening to it as intended.
That said I am old school and would still like to be able to whack the bass up on some recordings.
I was doing the same thing with the bass and treble, now I keep them at 12
I can understand the reservations of putting an invasive piece of equipment into the analog signal path.. Though I'm the digital world today, I'm all about EQ. I usually have my low bass at +4 dB, sloping down to 0 by around 120hz.
@@AudioElectronicsChicago ... o'clock, I'm guessing...?
@@RWL2012 Correct
@@AudioElectronicsChicago flat is crap, there are always deficiencies in phono carts, amps and speakers