Why are preamps expensive?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ต.ค. 2020
- Preamps aren't much more than a pot and switch so why are they so expensive? If you want to learn more, grab a copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide. www.amazon.com/Audiophiles-Gu...
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I like the way he explains things: friendly & relaxed
Paul and Nelson Pass are my favorite Audio Designers. They seem to share the same Philosophy of "doing no harm", and just employing whatever methods/circuitry are best, relative to the Technology available at the time to NOT stand in the way of the Music.
Perhaps the best description of what a preamp is for that I have seen.
Please, can someone give this man an award? I never heard talk and explain someone about audio as that much interesting stories. Will use this channel to learn but also fall sleep (:
Congratulations
@I was with your mother What are you smoking bruh
@I was with your mother I'm not talking about cables but about preamps. If you can't hear a difference between a cheap preamp and a NEVE or an AVALON then you must have some hearing damage. It's also pretty easy to see the difference visually if you pull up a frequency analyzer. Stop smoking crack kid.
@I was with your mother Then tell me: Why can I hear a BIG difference in fully blind-test between amps and pre-amps? In some few cases I can also hear differences in speaker cables if it is on a good system.
Just because YOU can't hear differences does not mean everyone is alike. Hearing is as variated as there are people.. So to say it's a scam when millions of people hear differences is just a HUGE fail dude ;)
It's just as dumb as saying "all cars are exactly the same car"...
@@theostragonidis7548 He is most likely just a lying troll living at his moms house
@I was with your mother Not about what YOU say.. Because you have no clue🤣
And there are tons of evidence that disagrees with you. Actually I can't find a single evidence that does agree with you. It has ALWAYS been proven that there is a difference.. Both by messuring and blind test listening. So just stop trolling.
You sound like a twat that claims something just because you have no knowlage.
There's a twinkle in Paul's eyes every time he says "Pot"
That’s because pot is legal in Colorado.
That usually means one is stoned, but I think Paul has just had enough in his lifetime for the word to have that effect lol.
@@leeharveydarke You are so right!
@Fat Rat It certainly is!
@@scottmackey4182 and now in Canada too ! :-)
Paul has an immense skill in explaining very complex issues related to sound production and bringing it to a level that most can understand. Being an audiophile of many years these TH-cam clips has definately futher my interest and understanding. Thanks!!
Tall you are a wealth of knowledge about everything high-end audio I could sit and listen to you speak countless hours in a row I'm glad you have a TH-cam channel
Paul has probably been referred to as 'tall' before, but doubtfully as his proper name. : )
I love it when Paul gets riled up! 😅😅
This guy is great! I didnt know what i didnt know about pre amps. I very much enjoyed learning a little about them from this fellow.
Impedance is so important. So many sound "engineers" nowadays don't know their electronics. Many things is made simple but things go down hill when you start assuming everything goes. Worse when those advices are passed on in the forums... ☺️
Good morning Paul, I've been in cable TV industry for about 30 years. started off as a cable TV installer then service tech then maintenance tech (a maintenance tech is the guy in the bucket truck that works on the whole neighborhood if you will). Then I got into management but I tell you that to say, working on those amplifiers to feed the neighborhoods for cable signal and all the things we have to do to make sure you get gigabytes speed. all the circuitry involved in those amplifiers turning fiber light into RF signal. The price of a BHK preamplifier is hanging on a lot of pole in your city. While I was in management I had to order inventory so I know how much those amplifiers on those poles cost so I understand to engineer something that's great as a BHK its going to cost a lot of money. And take it from the cable guy, "cables matter everyone". just the temperature of a cable will determined the attenuation of our signal, certain size cable determine how much signal I'm going to get on my output, we have to oscillate and shield our cable in order for you guys not to experience interference so you can get that gigabyte speed you want on your internet. And the hardest part of our job is to make sure we have a -50 dB noise floor throughout the whole infrastructure of our network. Cable matters more than you think ok, I'm rambling again. By the way I'm watching too many of your videos because I called my wife Terry twice at the dinner table. Lol have a great day
Do you think it makes sense to take experience with 1GHz-bandwidth signals traveling hundreds of feet through cable, and imply that 20KHz signals traveling 6-20 feet have similar issues?
That's rather like insisting that a paper airplane thrown from the top of a skyscraper needs heat shielding like the space shuttle has for its descent from orbit.
The biggest part of the cable bill was on Easter Sunday I went outside to see the cable guy finally cleaning up a wired mess that was out at the bottom of the pole for 3 years. Really HOLIDAY PAY is when you people finally do this. Then he cut the wrong wire of course and had to run a new line to my apartment and schedule for the line to be buried and well, I dont have cable anymore. I also had a problem when the oven kicked on my stereo would hummm. I learned about the ground loop eliminator of course this cable company that rhymes with COMCAST had no flippin idea what that was.
Thanks for the explanation.
A great question and and a great answer. Excellent!
Good explanation on volume control in less than 7min. I'm currently after a Benchmark LA4. Cheers!
I don't know why this video was recommended to me but now I need to know everything about preamps.
I love these vids that seem like a silly question, but aren't and Paul can pull from the history he has to answer with technical information that matters. Thanks!
Amazing. Thanks Paul!
Yes, I found the same thing 30 years ago. The BK system of volume control is the best way to go, second is resistor based . The Bryston is a fine preamp.
Fantastic explanation 👍
Absolutely love these explanation videos!
I like the way you explain things.
I really like your videos. You can learn so many things
I love your videos there is always something I can learn.
La mejor intro a los preamps, gracias maestro, saludos de Argentina
Amazing video. I learnt so much .
❤️❤️❤️❤️ I wouldn’t let go of my hand-built tube preamp for anything less than 500k. Love your videos Paul.
IMO Paul did a very good job describing this.. Bravo Paul
Very nice explanation.
Paul, You are the best bro. I will get your PS audio direct stream. Love the way you represent things. Love you bro. Much love and success to you Paul.
Really excellent explanation.
Speaking of high quality (and
therefore expensive) preamps sitting in front of a vintage Studer desk is a convincing way of do it !
Nicely explained!! Thank you 😊
The last time I watched a video like this, I was off scouring the far reaches of the web, all in search for anything I could find about making your own voltage regulators. I was interested in a regulator that I could really drain the current from, since commercially available regulators max out at about one Ampere. I find the man who found the same rabbit hole before me and did the real digging. His name is Walt Jung and he did more than build a discrete regulator. He ran multiple regulators of differing topographies through whatever paces he could and wrote some good papers and probably even won an honorary degree or three, dubbing him the Grand Poo-Bah of discreet voltage regulators. I still have yet to try out any of his regulators, having discovered the linear power supplies of Condor, International, and Power One. Which all three seem to be the same power supplies made in Oxnard and yet they go by three different names. So now I’m gonna be off searching probably about the potential of wiring my own transformers, maybe?! THANKS FOR SHARING!!
Now that's how you answer that one Paul, great answer.
A good phono stage is worth its weight in gold and doesn't have to break the bank. I use a NAD PP2e which retails for about £100 and it was a real game-changer for my TT.
My Sony LX-300USB is at the lower end of the TT market but I wanted to persist with it because I prefer an automatic TT to manual. A separate phono stage and an elliptical stylus turned the weak, distortion-filled sound into punchy bass and detailed sound.
If the separate phono stage hadn't worked out, I would have given up on this TT and gone for something a bit more upmarket but that little box makes a bigger difference than most people realise.
Thank you this was very informative
I can sit here and just listen to Paul lecture for hours on end.
very good description, I sure agree with him (and I often don't).
Spot on explanation, got it!
I love the passion in your voice when you explain everything, if it wasn't for you Paul the love affair I have with music would be mediocre at best! Hope to visit PS audio when we get the all clear from the CDC. Take care 🙂
Quality will cost ya no matter the application. Thanks Mr. McGowan. Excellent explanation.
Very good answer from the kindest man in Audio IMO.
Mark Levinson ML-7 pre-amplifier did obtain this balance between straight wire with pot (very expensive Spectrol Series 100 wirewound and later very expensive Penny +Giles RF15 plastic conductive) and bufferstage. One of the best (old) pre-amps ever built and expensive also ($ 4,000.00 in 1981).
I have very fond memories of my PS Audio 4.6 preamp from 1989..... It had passive and active modes, and what Paul describes is exactly what I experienced. Passive was super transparent, but lacking some oomph. Kicking in the gain gave it life and dynamics, at the loss of some transparency. Sadly it had some reliability issues, noisy switches, and also was not remote control. I switched to an Adcom preamp. I liked the Adcom fine, but it was never as sweet sounding as the PS.
I've got a 4.6 as my main preamp at the moment. Love that thing, no reliability issues so far. Definitely understand the need to swap though I don't mind the lack of a remote.
Nicely said , love it
Dam you law of physics. It’s bad for my wallet.
It's called the PS Audio Source Preamp. With jumpers you could switch between passive and active. It was a kit. I built one. I still own it.
Paul, you're like the teacher on Welcome Back Carter I look forward to learning from you, like the characters in that show. When I see a new segment that song comes to mind. So, thanks Paul for the help and the smiles.
Thanks! Never saw the show but I'll taker your word for it.
@Paul McGowan, PS Audio Mr. Carter in the show had an easy way and an enjoyable experience. You are one of my favorite channels to check out after I pour my first cup of Joe. The best to you and your family.
I think I would feel much more comfortable getting an answer to this question from somebody who is not directly in the industry of selling preamps
😀
@John Siket I would say it's an explanation but I wouldn't say it's a great explanation I would say it's one of many possible explanations for why so much money is charged for many of these preamps the thing is if you add up the cost of the parts in a lot of these preamps they are dirt cheap compared to the final product price, in other words a lot of the cost comes from the initial R&D but let's face it making that money back in most cases doesn't take very long and then they just go on selling it for exorbitant amounts of money and I feel in most of those cases they are making way more profit then most people would deem as Fair
@@MikeG-js1jt I'm confused about why preamps need to take R&D into account. Surely you can just implement a circuit which has already already been tried and tested twenty years ago. There are lots to choose from depending how fussy the client is. Why do we keep re-inventing the wheel?
@@westinthewest I'm sure there are scores of pre-amps out there that use "already developed" circuits, which brings us back to the original question "why are pre-amps so expensive" which leads us really to a single logical conclusion...GREED
Love your humor!
That Studer 900 Series desk behind you has some very nice ... preamps! 🤓
The USA made Schiit Freya and Freya + are highly praised in professional and user reviews and sell for $600 and $899 respectively.
I returned it for Vincent preamp. Well engineered.
i love the Studer Behind you
Many thanks Paul
Hallelujah! Been searching for this holy grail for some time now....
Amazing, thanks!
Thanks that was interesting
Love your explanations and their basis in facts supported by experience. That said, I also like your naturalness. I have to note that you must have just had a trim - the video pics out the cuttings on your shirt - just makes you human like all of us. :)
Now I need pot. THANKS PAUL! :)
i see you have the SSL six. love that thing!!!
Cool, good stuff
Interesting explanation, thank you.
Few people realize that every component adds 'color' to the signal, no matter how slight.
And that coloration adds up...................
Bill P.
The trick for the designer is to make that coloration the least objectionable as possible, which may or may not be the least "amount".
@@mkshffr4936 ....hence the legend of that great preamp 'sound' !
This is a topic with no clear end in sight.
I understand that in the analog world there are a lot of compromises to make and you need good quality materials. Recently I went from the Rotel RC1590 preamp (with a Minidsp AD-DA) stage between the speakers and subs) to a fully digital Minidsp Flex Balanced. Now the entire audio chain (until the output to the power amps) is digital. I noticed a very pleasant upgrade in sound quality, especially in the low end. At low volumes the bass frequencies are much more in balance than before, where at lower volumes it gets a bit flat.
Isn't digital the best way to go nowadays? Digital sound (24/96) is absolutely fine, lots of headroom both in the dynamic as in the frequency department. You can pick the absolute original digital signal, process is to match the speakers/room/desired volume and at the very last stage convert it to analog and send it to the speakers? I do that now and I will never go back. This sounds very good to me and even the phantom center is now appearing to me, like the ochestra behind the speakers. I did not get that when using the analog preamp.
thank you sir for this!!
Very knowledgeable guy
I love what you do, Paul. You have a wealth of knowledge.
This is funny. For years I wondered how the input pots on my power amp would effect the performance, since a different setting give you a different impedance. The input pot setting for each side was slightly different on my power amp. So I was going to post a comment about that after watching the video. LOL
Paul have two considered using battery supply for your input stage? My ASR Emitter has this design.
Listen, OLD MAN... Do you produce BANGERS on that gear?!
Pots also have a mismatch between the two signal levels due to a varied resistance between the two wiper paths.
High end studio monitor controllers will typically use a relay network where each is connected to discrete resistors for repeatable volume levels and consistent stereo image.
Is there a same problem with electronic pots or volume controls?
@@ranbymonkeys2384 pots are pots so they all have this issue. Some people think the problem goes away with stepped pots but they are still a mechanical device where a wiper touches a resistive plate; the steps just stop the wiper in predefined locations. These locations are not exact so the resistance will vary.
@@rapfreak7797 So if you have 1 pot per channel could you not match them? They may not show the same level on the knob but they can me matched I would think?
My NAD 2400 had 2 pots left and right I could adjust the little pots on the inside to make them match.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 in theory yes but In practice no. Even resistors will have a tolerance level made to be a single value whereas a pot varies resistance based upon the location of the resistive plate; it’s a matter of physics.
That Studer 900 series behind you is my dream console, I hope I can find one in a good condition someday
I'm curious what they are doing with the SSL Six sitting on the top of the cabinet on the right.
@@Ultimate_Wasabi Routing stuff obviously, Besides I believe these guys make their own music sometimes, Man your eyes are even sharper than mine, Cheers 🤘🍻
Thanks for this video! I've been wondering the same myself for a lot of ourboard gear. Especially for 500-series gear where I/O and power supplies are already taken care of... I'm just really unsure where the price comes in. Passives are cheap. PCBs are cheap these days. Transformers cost a bit, but not hundreds generally. Watching now to find out!
All that buffering he is taking about and all of those gain cells are not being done with passive components.
I think Paul needs to get a whiteboard.
I would like to know Paul's views on the ATC monitors behind him
Morning Paul,
Are those ATC speakers, behind you?
So could you just bi amp and only use preamp on the woofers thus getting clean precise highs and meaty deep lows.
Can you explain the approaches used in modern low cost preamps such as Midas or Focusrite?
To add a bit of old-school tech and 1950's style sci-fi, hook up your turntable to a pair of Variac transformers.
So you can get that "Brown Sound" like Eddie Van Halen? lol :)
What's the painting over your right shoulder? I like it!
Maestro Thanks!!!!
I had been using a DAC with variable output direct to my power amp. I just upgraded to a pre-amp in between, sounds quite a bit better
all audio equipment has its own sound type and no one has the same sound!
Compare with earphones straight out of the DAC. and straight out of the preamplifier and the sound should be equal. or straight out of CD player to straight out of preamplifier without DAC. and the sound shall be equal!
I have the opposite experience; I go from my Dac (with volume contreol) straight to the amp; tried with 2 different tubed linestages and the sound was not better to worse than direct Dac-Amp.
Well most DAC with variable output run at low signal level and can’t handle much capacitance load. It is not surprising that a good preamp will make a huge improvement. XLR and pro audio signal levels are the way to go if you want the finest in quality. Pro audio signal levels are higher than consumer level - more dynamic range or SNR.
Cost can be categorized. Let's say
1. Audio circuitry
2. Componant quality
3. whiz bang features
4. Styling
5. Marketing
6. Economies of scale
7. Logistics and liability
8. Labor and compliance costs
Generally 1 and 2 are the least costly give or take.
Curious. Can you use the speaker outs of a receiver (say left and right) to drive a couple of bass shakers while running all pre-outs to a separate amplifier?
There's almost always more than meets the eye in any product and high end pre-amps are no different. And ethe more esoteric the design the more issues have to be dealt with. All of that is true. However, there is another reason pre-amps can get so expensive and that is simply because they can be. A lot of people buying preamps are more dedicated music buffs and are willing to spend more money for better sound or at least the perception of better sound. Pre-amps are a must have when going to separate components and many an audiophile who goes that route will spend whatever they feel is needed to make their sonic dreams come true, within their budget, of course. Manufacturers know these people are willing to spend more so they can charge more. Same reason many integrated amps cost as much as they do. Yes, often the quality of a two thousand dollar integrated is better than that of an one thousand dollar AV receiver but very rarely is there a thousand dollars worth of aural difference. But someone who even knows what the difference between the two might be is someone that will spend the money for the slightest step up in audio quality and so they get the privileged of paying more. Not saying it's never worth it. Just saying that frequently when you are willing to step into more specialized areas of any hobby it's not always improved quality that makes items cost more.
Dave P Exactly. It's also a matter of the quantity sold (demand). A company like Parasound is in the middle of mass market and boutique companies, which I think this market gives people the best bang for the buck. There are better units from boutique companies, but one must pay a lot more for little gain.
i remove my bhk pre the other day just to remember what the dac sounded like without it .and it defo sounded better with the pre installed.
the part that I struggle with is my system is only for 2 channel vinyl playback, and i don't need or want a bunch of source options i'll never use, and same with the phono stage, i'll never use the dozens of different cartridge loadings. Just want 1 reference level path for my TT
I see the Gain Cell DAC is sold out. Are you going to make more of those? That would match well with the s300 right?
Very clean 2ch preamp (described as wire with gain) can be made with at most 150eur of material. Company THAT and some others sell dedicated ICs which are made to do this while sounding very well for what they are. Most high end preamps are about harmonic distortion they add, designers do search for clean sound but also carefully add coloration to it. People are paying too much for overcharges like marketing, shops, etc. Btw, huge companies like Behringer are buying known small companies with few employers to get even more $$$ than they have. Support designers and your pockets, buy directly from them.
I'm gonna get riled up - I love it! Please explain a 1:1 impedance matching transformer please. :)
(n_p/n_s)^2 = z_p/z_s
Where n_p is the number of turns in the primary and n_s the number of turns in the secondary. z_p is the impedance of the primary and z_s is the impedance of the secondary.
A 1:1 transformer is an isolation transformer. It inductively transfers a signal at the same voltage and impedance from the primary side of the transformer to the secondary side of the transformer.
Talking of preamps.. Do people have opinions of that Emm-Labs preamp down on the wire rack, bottom left of shot? I have one I bought for a home studio, tested it worked but never brought it out again! I'd love to know how it compares to high-end for hifi use. Mine is a Mk 1, all flip switches and couple of knobs.
I have Roon. Should set the preamp volume to 100% and control the volume with Roon?
Please define 'wimpy.' What are we measuring? What demonstrable effect is missing? Thanks for the video.
Of course, my first thought when reading the title was Why limit this question to pre-amps?
However, Paul has summed it up succinctly, with an answer that can be loosely applied in general to all components.
Unfortunately.
Another question might be, why is it now possible to achieve a great sounding system for a fraction of the previous cost?
@Fat Rat
🤪
The prices on really high performance op-amps have come down a lot too. With some of the offerings from TI (OPA1642 comes to mind) that ultra-low-distortion buffer has become a lot easier to implement.
component that make a clean sound.
WIMA polypropylene film caps after 10 yours of burn in of course
I wasn't crazy about the sound of your early PS Audio preamps from the 80s despite good but biased reviews by the high end press. I bought one and was severely disappointed; it sounded lean, dry and solid state as I recall. Your later products are of course much better.
Paul, everything you said is true.
It is also the reason why the conga line of mixing boards (like the one behind you) pollute the signal.
@1:19 "...and it was extremely clean"...
...is lost when device after device, box after box, tweak after tweak, is manipulating the once "extremely clean" signal.
I am not suggesting that zero processing be done.
I am, however, suggesting that studios drill into their staff that they must give serious consideration to every urge to use yet another processing box.
If every additional processing operation cost $10,000 then watch how fast they would manage to put out great sounding music, without all of the superfluous processing.
Maybe the the music studios should operate like the Affordable Care Act, where government approval is needed for each additional mixing box the studio wants to use? That would surly cut back on all of the unnecessary processing operations.
Considering how awful most of today's music sounds (it sounds artificial, compressed, congested, contrived), studios should consider requiring mixing engineers to seek approval for excessive processing.
I hate adding red tape to the production line. But considering how bad most of today's recordings sound, the engineers have only themselves to blame for the extra hoops they will have to now deal with in the approval process.
In any other industry, if quality control was found to be lacking, management would take steps to remedy the problem.
It seems that recording studios have an exemption carved out for them in the standards and practices that are upheld in nearly every successful business.
The problem is that since very few songs get released with high fidelity, and most people do not own PS Audio level equipment, the public is oblivious to how bad most songs sound, and how fantastic they could sound, in the hands of the right mixing and mastering engineers.
Cheers!
He nailed it.
brilliant
sorry about such a basic question : why do i even need a preamp ? is sound that bad when i just plug my dac output into the power amp ? i thought that any added element in the audio pipeline can only affect sound in bad way ?
Great answer... for anyone who manufactures and/or sells audio equipment.
Ask anyone in the business; and they’ll give you a similar answer. Ask san audiophile with a degree in Electronics and Electrical Engineering; and they’ll tell you that preamps are expensive because that’s what audiophiles will pay for them. There’s a huge profit margin on preamplifiers. For all the “justification” that anyone provides, it’s all about profit and marketing. If they could sell them for more, they would. If the economy goes to pot, most of the current models would be discontinued; and to stay in business they’d start producing cheaper models with built-in limitations. If the economy didn’t pick up, they’d release a limited series that sounded ‘almost’ as good.
Btw, while I have the equivalent to a gardener’s brown thumb where electronics is concerned, one one my longtime school friends went on to get a degree in Electronics and Electrical Engineering; and he like the sound of my NAD preamp so much, that he built his own. It looks like he’ll, but it actually sounds pretty damned good! He spent less than $125 CDN on it (not including interconnects.
Paul, this maybe a little off subject but relatable. Looking of using an AVR without pre-outs : Can the speaker output of an AVR without pre-outs be fitted with an rca connector (both positive and negative) from each front channel and used as pre-outs to connect to a power amp? If so, are there any consequences?
@Fat Rat okay. I was looking at it much like speaker line inputs into a plate amplifier of a subwoofer. Thinking the amp only needs the signal. If I may ask, what makes a separate power amp different?
If I understood correctly, with a very loo impedance source, say 100 Ohms, I could use a relatively low impedance pot, let's say 1 k, and get close to performance of a buffer. Does it make sense?
A preamplifier's output impedance is typically less than 100 ohm. You are starting with an impedance of 100 and can only get higher based on the setting of your potentiometer. So no.