Enemy fighter: "Cleric, don’t your domain have some pretty specific things to say about killin’?" Peace Domain Cleric: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."
"I'm only at peace when every enemy within 100 square miles is dead. As my friends aid me in this gleeful slaughter I bless them constantly, it's been years since they've missed an attack. None can stand against us." (How to turn your players into the antagonists :D)
Peace Cleric is the only one that I've heard someone call for a ban/nerf. "Assuming that with average to hit bonus and average enemy AC you hit about 65% of the time..." is going straight out the window if your whole party gets +2d4 on an attack roll. As long as a frontline fighter like a barbarian, paladin or fighter is in the party, the DM basically has to think about just increasing enemy AC by 1 or 2 to still challenge the group.
Shameless TFS Reference: "So, it is a crusade!" "No! No no no no no we don't call it that anymore its umm... what do the Americans call it again?" "Peace Keeping?" "Yeah! Lets go keep the peace"
The dudes are making an excellent argument for a Peace Domain Cleric as the party coach. He give his teammates guidance, orange slices, and high fives.
Current “pep talk” is cast aid on myself, barbarian and Hexblade at my highest slot that I have at least two (currently that is 4th) increasing max HP by 15. I found a breastplate of heroism that allows me to grant temporary HP equal to my level plus my CON modifier to the entire party once every long rest (that is an additional 13 HP, lvl 9 and a +4 CON) then in fight it is bond the barbarian, the Hexblade and his SHIELD GUARDIAN, Bless on those three and finally sanctuary on myself as I wade into the fray and use the help action to grant advantage. Still don’t know if we are allowing UA feats, if so picking up Master Tactician makes that even more of a powerful option.
I absolutely agree. I'm also playing a Twilight Cleric, but I mixed in the Stars Druid and my fuck. I don't think y party can physically be killed anymore.
@@Korren1125 I know right? And the fact that it SCALES with level. I personally think the twilight cleric is probably the most over powered support in the game at the moment. A level 2 ability that gives temp hp, or REMOVES a fear or charm effect? At the end of someone's turn, and requiring no action econ at all. But tonnnnssss of fun haha
From the playtest material... it was originally named "Unity" which made SOOOO much more sense than "Peace". Because all of the cleric abilities are about keeping the party within 30ft of each other to get the benefits of the Unity cleric.
Countercharm is a joke to everyone. We homebrewed it in my game where it's a bonus action to do, and you can spend a resource (a bardic inspo) to allow anyone currently charmed or frightened in range to immediately make a saving throw with advantage.
I simply homebrewed it to "it just removes fear and charm from everyone" and costing a standard action to do so still is a feels bad. But hey, at least it's not useless like favorite terrain.
The first time I hear the words Counter Charm, I thought immediately it’d a free Counter Spell for charm affects and able to turn back the charm back to that creature is they fail a wisdom saving throw. My brain works in mysterious ways
Peace and Twilight Domain are so overpowered. Frankly, a lot of the older subclasses need to catch up to the new subclasses in Tasha's. The sorcerer subclasses are in dire need of a fix to catch up to Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul.
I would argue that the Peace domain is THE most powerful subclass especially if you have a Paladin and a bard. If you play it smart you will never ever miss except on Natural 1s. Its ridiculously powerful, and I don't even like clerics
I am currently playing a twilight cleric and am only 5th level. After this episode,..... I feel like I'm sitting on an untapped oil well..... I've barely scratched the surface. Honestly I had the other players, were all humans btw, complain that I gave darkvision to them so they can see in the dark...... Other than that I've no complaints
@@spellister one of my players is playing A Twilight domain in the next campaign I'm a bit tentative to let him but I don't want to ban anything before they prove that they're actively trying to break the game. Most of the new sub classes are really, really powerful. Especially the Cleric subclasses, Rune Knight and Phantom
I agree. honestly, I think the other Sorcerer subclasses (other than the Divine Soul because it has access to the cleric spell list) need a spell list in the same way that the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul get one, to restore some game balance. How about an elementally inspired list for the Draconic Sorcerer, and spells that deceive or confuse for the Wild Magic Sorcerer?
For Eyes of Night (22:30) you forgot the "unless you expend a spell slot of any level to share it again." Which I think makes it more flexible to use instead of holding onto it for the "right" moment.
Even better is that the Domain for Twilight cleric is "filled with" dim light, which even if your outdoors in bright light can create a spot for you to take off with Steps of the Night and gain that sweet sweet flying speed
@@lordzaboem I view it as not so much adding dim light to an already lit space, but pulling shadows or whatever to reduce the bright light down to dim light. But that's just my read on it, obviously it's not written either way so it's open to interpretation.
@@lordzaboem I see it as the player darkening the space around them, or despite the time of day, the area around the character appears to be dark out as if it were twilight. From your reasoning the Darkness spell shouldn't be able to work in bright light either because creating a space of darkness in light doesn't make any kind of sense. And my answer to both of these is... it's magic.
Eilistraee was the first goddess I thought of for a twilight cleric when Monty mentioned a group of all elven characters including a gloom stalker, blade singer, twilight cleric, and moon Druid as a 4 party group that would be the perfect combination of classes when he mentioned they might be dark elves or some sort of twilight elves.
Prediction: this may be the only time Treantmonk and the Dudes agree on the tier of something… that the classification for these subclasses is Bonkers tier.
They are comparing the subclasses differently though. Treantmonk is comparing against all subclasses in the game against one another and Dudes are comparing subclasses against the same class.
@@PowderKeg3838 yeah, I know. But broadly speaking I don’t mean they have disagreements in terms of the literal tier, it is the actual interpretation of how good classes are. The trickery domain is a good example of a class they view in completely different ways.
@@PowderKeg3838 Yup. And Treantmonk's ratings have a much higher threshold for them. S tier for Dudes is just a very good subclass. S tier for Treantmonk is "Oh God it's so broken don't ever pick that". So even if he places subclass in a lower tier doesn't always mean his opinion is that different.
They don't agree at all. Dungeon Dudes just said they love these subclasses. Treatmonk said he hates them. That's about as far apart as you can get. Both of them saying the subclasses are powerful is just stating a fact like saying water is wet; that isn't agreement.
Treantmonk: "These classes are stupidly powerful and honestly they shouldn't exist in their current form, I hate them." vs. Dudes: "These subclasses are stupidly powerful and game breaking, and we love them for it. (ok, maybe twilight might be a slight problem)" Same ranking, but really a very different conclusion. I'm with Treantmonk on this one, these classes make it really hard to balance combat and keep things fun and challenging. Encounters that would be deadly for most parties literally become trivial with either of these clerics around.
Regarding Balm of Peace, this is also a great way to heal AFTER a fight. At level 6, it's a potential 4d6 + (2 x WIS mod), then a short rest gets your Channel Divinity charges back.
Every time I hear your guys’ intro, I in my head go “WEEeee cover everything dungeons and draGOOOOOOONS” like Travis Wilingham at the start of Critical Role episodes lmao
Unless your DM interprets that as simply _adding_ dim light to the current area -- which, if in bright light, would remain bright light (like turning on a flashlight outside at noon).
Yeah, they missed this in their review. It is actually what helps keep this channel divinity relevant at high levels of play. The ability to reposition ,y cleric on the battlefield with impunity, while also healing, while also still being able to cast/use another bonus action spell has gotten me and my party out of so many tight spots!
I love the twilight domains flavor of the Shield cleric. In the sense you get temp hit points they mitigate damage very well. I think a twilight cleric/divination wizard would be REALLY fun to play
Or, alternatively, the Barbarian is also the cleric. I have a multiclass build with 3 levels of cleric and the rest barbarian. It's pretty nuts at lower levels. I've taken Zealot, but if you wanna be the ultimate tank, just get bear. You get the replenishing temp HP, resistance to all damage, and also can cleanse yourself off of charms which are the scariest thing to a barbarian. Oh, and you can also cast Aid and heal a little between rests.
@@durnsidh6483 I know that it’s not a temp hp tank but it still gets the free flight and greater invisibility, combine that with eldritch blast or maybe even a familiar and you’ve got quite the combo.
As someone who just started to play a Twilight Cleric, if there is a category above S, it absolutely belongs there. If everyone stays within my twilight sanctuary, we can chew through pretty much everything, either I could give hitpoints, or just negate anything that wants to charm or frighten my member and I'm only lvl 3
I hope for you, that your DM doesn't decide that the enemies are going to grapple and drag the cleric away so that it's allies can beat up your teammates. Yes Twilight can be strong, but the things that make it strong can be worked around. Especially if you can homebrew monsters. A monster with lots of large diameter aoe attacks that steal temp hp and the temp hp does stack for the monster, inflicts stun/paralizes for the next rounds to any enemies on whom the fear or charm condition ends, switches it's 30'' ft darkvision with that of all non friendly creatures with more darkvision than it has, has enemies automatically fail their saving throw if they are in dim light or darkness and can share most of these with its minions combined with hit and run tactics will (I think) have a twilight cleric struggle considerable. Oh and the warlock will hate him too for stealing his armor of agathys temp hp.
Seems like the peace domain is more of a leadership domain. I can definitely see a lawful evil politician egging his party on with plausible deniability, or a good coach for a team. Coach: Okay, let's get 'em! *party gets their butts handed to them* Okay guys, good hustle, good hustle! *high five heals the group*
that was the original theme of the class back when it was unity. They didn't change it that well to fit the new theme. Why does peace still have a communication based spell after they changed it from a civilization based subclass
I reflavoured my peace cleric to a "community cleric" who actually serves as a pillar of support and leadership in her community. It wasn't planned: the domain really helped bringmout that aspect of leadership in her
I feel like a lot of older classes should have gotten a boost in Tasha's to bring them up to the same levels. Not just with Clerics... like Sorcerers should all have expanded spell list. When I was trying to choose a class for a one-shot character, people were telling me I had to take Tasha's ones since they were just better, but they didn't fit my character concept at all. I didn't end up taking a Tasha's class but I was made to feel like I missed out and took something subpar. They had a chance in tasha's to make changes to some of the others and didn't, so I doubt they will, but they really should.
There are plenty of homebrewed extended spell list for sorcerers now-a-days, and I’m sure you could make your own for any other class that needed it. That being said, not all the subclasses in previous books are worse, it’s just a lot more varied. So, play the characters you want, and don’t feel bad about it!
Watching this feels like validation of the utter mess I've made of my DMs campaign. Idk when is the last time someone fell in battle because of my Twilight Sanctuary. But I can tell you how many times players died or nearly died even playing a Life Domain. It is an insane class and I love it.
I feel like they should have kept the name for Peace domain as the Unity domain, because it really is more about keeping your friends together and alive more than anything.
I'm currently playing a Twilight Cleric/Gloomstalker, and I fuckin love it. I initially designed him just with flavor in mind, but the two subclasses actually have great synergy. Flying in the dark while being invisible to darkvision? Fuck yeah.
@@snazzyfeathers I stuck with medium armor, to make some use of my high dex. It's a character that I came up with the backstory with and then chose classes that would fit. He's a Crinti, which is a hybrid race made of high elves, Drow, and humans. Used to be a marauder, hence the Gloomstalker, until he became a worshipper of Eilistraee, making him a Twilight Cleric.
Only problem is, twilight sanctuary doesn't synergise with Umbral Sight, since Umbral Sight requires darkness to work and not dim light. Twilight cleric doesn't provide darkness, so it doesn't contribute much except the flight. And I'm not sure it's so much worth to dip 6 levels into cleric.
for the twilight cleric: twilight sanctuary is a 30 ft radius of dim light so steps of night work well with this. pop your channel divinity as an action and fly with your bonus action
@@lordzaboem it is a 30 ft radius so you can stay 15 ft above the ground and your party members will stay have the temp hitpoints if they stay in the bubble besides I was saying that it could work together for when there is no dim light or darkness to fly even outside of combat
This is interesting. I just did some quick math on a piece of scratch paper. Being at feet off the ground will reduce affected ground cover of the sphere from about 2800 square feet to about 700 square feet, or a fourth the size of a circle for allies on the ground. That's tightly packed (depending on the size of the map) but still feasible.
@@lordzaboem That's how _I_ would run it, but don't forget that there are some DMs who insist that spherical spells like fireball are actually a square -- or cube, I guess, if extending into 3 dimensions. (This happens when they extrapolate from diagonal distances on a square grid requiring the same movement as perpendicular distances -- which is one interpretation, but not the one I use.)
Very interesting points about the power creep. I would love a video about "fixing" the PHB subclasses. What would you do to bring them up to the level of tashas content?
Why is the power level of tasha’s inherently better than the power level of the PHB? So why buff the PHB instead of nerfing Tasha’s? Both achieve the same goal of both books being on a similar power level. Nerfing all of the Tasha’s subclasses in fact has more merit because while the challenge rating system doesn’t work perfectly, we might as well try to keep it functional rather than throw it completely off irrevocably.
@@SWElewa So when the next bit of powercreep comes out are you going to ask for Tasha’s and the PHB to both get updates? Eventually if this process were to continue every few years or so there would need to be reworks for all other existing classes and subclasses on a semi-regular basis.
@@Exisist5151 As a counterpoint, some of the PHB subclasses are brokenly underpowered(Looking at you, Ranger). While the cleric subclasses may be some of the extreme outliers as far as power creep goes, some of the base classes are only on more of an equal level with others because of a subclass published later. There needs to be some more work done on the initial subclasses and some of the base classes in general.
As an older player, I think that the publishers recognized that most people in 3.5 did not enjoy playing a cleric and so they went and made clerics in 5e WAY better, and conversely since everyone played Rangers 5e really made the Ranger a niche class to play. I totally agree with the end statement that compared with other classes, most, if not all, cleric classes would be in that A tier. Like Jo Cat said, you can have a part of all clerics called A-Men and none of them would be the same cleric. Excellent explanations, great analysis, thanks for sharing Dungeon Dudes.
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this before, but if you know you are going into battle before hand, initiative is an ability check...adding a d4 to initiative for a number of characters could be big
Excellent, as always. Thank you guys. I love the shenanigans of how you guys talk about the rules. Self-harm teleport, and a blanket for dark powered flight! I love it. Still a fan of the Light Domain myself.
As a DM, I would definitely let the players know that choosing a Twilight Cleric means the difficulty of the game will increase significantly. I think that giving them more dangerous encounters transparently means the Twilight Cleric can really shine. They STILL keep the whole party up, btw.
Custom lineage is better now, and you can get dark vision in place of a skill proficiency. The +2 to one stat plus a half feat means 18 main stat at level 1.
@@DnDAnalysis if you are playing Adventures League then Half Elf is the better choice since the decided that you can replace a +2 to a stat with a Feat so half elf gets everything Variant Human gets but with 60ft dark vision and 2 skills instead of one. Plus if you choose to you can replace the 2 skills with any one ability of the High Elf, Wood Elf, or Drow.
@@nickm9102 I did not know that, cool. I still prefer custom lineage for the +2 to main stat and a half feat getting you to 18 at level 1. I wouldn't be surprised to see it banned at a lot of tables honestly. I do love the half elf package, though.
Oh my god I was waiting to hear what they had to say about Twilight Clerics. I am currently playing as a Twilight Cleric Satyr and it's the most fun I've had in D&D, and instead of just being a unique little fun subclass, it's super good as well; i've been able to do so much while being super helpful. Whoever made this subclass deserves a raise.
We took Balm of Peace a bit literally and my guy was essentially clapping party members on the back with Tiger Balm in dire situations. Worked beautifully as a Level 2 dip from a Mercy Monk with 45 ft of movement
You guys might have to give this S+ because you two forgot that after sharing your Eyes of Night feature, you can expend a spell slot OF ANY LEVEL to use it again. It acts like a prepared Darkvision spell that sacrifices the 8 hour duration for longer distance AND multiple people within one cast and can be cast for free once per long rest. Also thank you for making me realize there was even more power within the subtle wording of Steps of Night. You are absolutely right that you must be in dim light/darkness to activate it but nothing about staying within it. On a side note, this would only be game breaking if you could share your flight, which is a good thing you can't. I am currently using the Twilight Domain for my very first cleric character. A centaur in the Iceland Dale module. You have to think about the implications of that power. Sure I am a centaur that is heavy and big but.......think about it. XD
Yes and as a Cleric with -1 Strength mod I do this all the time to get the paladin and barbarian to the front. XD. So glad to see someone else besides me though of this fun D&D hack.
The reason that isn't seen much is because it doesn't work. The wording is "when a creature [...] is about to take damage...", so if the attack is going to deal no damage, teleportation is not prompted.
@@guardian_OfEden it is if you have a home game where the dm follows the rule of cool, which let's be honest is one of the most underutilized rules in D&D
@@CutieKarai I think for a class feature that you're using semi-consistently, you'd need to check in with them and ask specifically for a rules-change, not rely on "The Rule of Cool". Also, my experience says that that's one of the *most* utilized rules in D&D, but that's an entire other conversation in and of itself that is neither here nor there.
@@guardian_OfEden indeed the rule of cool is its own conversation. My dms are pretty good at fitting things like the feature into play, because they want everyone in our campaign to have fun and be able to use our characters features fully. That said, our 4 dms myself included all talk about things and get a decision one way or the other, before we let things just occur.
You guys have taught me more about each subclasses than reading through the subclasses myself lol. Same with like, all of the rules. I DM’d my first campaign session yesterday and even though I wasn’t fully prepared my friends had a lot of fun and so did I :)
Even if these weren't S tier, domains from Tasha's filled a gap in the options that the pantheons gave us, esp for my clerics. We needed a good PLUR and moon domain, but idk how many knew wotc would go this hard.
Heroism (which is on the spell list) works so well with the teleport ability. Heroism + any sort of resistance makes the temporary hitpoints go so far.
I think it would be fun to do a class/subclass ranking as well. For example, every archer is viable, but which archers are better than others? Which buffing support subclass is an A, and which is an S. Which melee damage dealer is a C tier, etc.
@@josephmurphy7522 I got a video suggestion today, Treantmonk is doing exactly this and shouts out the Dudes. Pretty solid series so far. He absolutely hates the few S ranks he has given out so far, as they break the game in a way that is fun for no one but the player of that class, and he differs pretty significantly is his rankings from this series.
Tasha’s clerics are just a grab bag of power creep with no real thematic binding. You said it best when you said things like Tempest and Forge were honest - they’re clear themes, and their abilities and spells work towards that. On the other hand, what do stackable attack buffs and teleporting have to do with being peaceful? And the Twilight cleric, well… good lord.
Am I the only one who wants to build a Half-orc Peace domain cleric who mistakenly and genuinely believes that he or she is a PIECE CLERIC whose tenants are to chop their enemies into pieces?
Twilight domain shroud thing adds half-cover because there are plenty of effects and abilities that ignore cover. Adding the flat bonus would make the ability even stronger, and the twilight domain is already ridiculously overpowered.
I absolutely love my Twilight Cleric. One thing that’s nuts about it is this excerpt from the Twilight Sanctuary ability, “As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light.” This means that you can use Steps of Night while you have the sanctuary up.
A bad thing about the twilight cleric is that it also overshadows temporary hit points from other sources. You want to pick inspirational leader. That is useless because there is a twilight domain cleric in the party
That sticker being slapped onto the jug you're referring to, Monty, is Phil Swift and the original Flex Tape commercial. Phil is a Peace Domain patron, if you didn't know.
Monty: “And finally at first level, you gain the Emboldening Bond feature.” Me: “Feels like something’s missing here. I think an ability this powerful and broken deserves a bit more oomph behind it.” *opens a new tab and plays One-Winged Angel as they describe the ability* “Much better.”
Imagine having a piece domain cleric and twilight domain cleric in your party. Hell, those two by themselves could be the whole party. These are SS tier sunglasses. Their booty game changing, they're game breaking.
Balance is out the window with a twilight cleric. I had a level 7 party fight a boss that had multiple phases, dealt fireball amounts of damage each attack, attacking 6 times a turn after a long day of dungeon crawling. They won quite easily, even while playing with massive damage rules.
Four Elements is basically getting replaced by the UA Ascendant Dragon Monk it seems. I just hope they don't nerf it into the ground in the final release, because it's my favorite Monk subclass now
In my group I'm the always DM and we are just about start a new Game where I'll be playing with a Twilight Domain Cleric PC. I'm so excited and as I am the DM and the most experienced player on my table I think that I'll be able to handle properly the encounters to this powerful subclass.
@@lordzaboem No. It is the fact that at level one, the Peace Domains Cleric can double the to hit bonus of 2 characters for an entire combat. Stacking Bless and Emboldening Bond gives those characters an additional +2d4 (6 average) to hit. A level 1 fighter now has a +11 to hit on attack roles. It becomes very ridiculous from the start of the class and it does not slow down.
@@taktikal26 So the PeaceCler is trading all of her healing capability until after the next long rest for a great boost to a teammate in a single encounter. This seems very manageable to me, maybe even a bad trade. Each to his own I guess.
@@lordzaboem 1: The peace cleric isn't trading off any healing capabilities 2: It isn't a single encounter. It's at the very least 2 encounters, increasing with your prof. bonus 3: You're not realizing how much this breaks bounded accuracy. The game expects you to hit 65% of the time, or, on an 8 or higher. With an average of +5 from Bond & Bless to every die roll, now you're hitting on 3 or higher, or 90% of the time. And of course, it's *per turn*, not per round, so even after you get your attack, you're still gonna get to use that for saving throws. 4: Peace Domain doesn't only break bounded accuracy, but, after it gets protective bond, it gets to break positioning as well. Grapples, area control effects, ongoing AOE damage, traps, and Opportunity Attacks all stop being a threat to the party because you can rescue an ally by punching yourself and having them spend a Reaction to intercept the attack.
Personally, I don't think I'd allow for the self-attacking cheese if I was the DM, and I feel like the RAI for the Twilight is that the flying is supposed to be *while* they're in dim light. Granted, their Twilight Sanctuary makes that a moot point since they're surrounded by dim light while it's up, but that's how I interpretted it. I'd also say that Tasha's is less of Power Creep and more of the designers understanding their mechanics better. The fact that they went back & effectively re-wrote the Ranger and the Beastmaster is probably the best example of this. It still feels like the Ranger and isn't that much more powerful than the PHB version, but the skills just flow together better & don't actively fight each other.
That's why my DM trusts me with more "OP" set-ups, he knows I hate cheese and gaming the system, so I will never do that. I play a Twilight Cleric in our Tomb of Annihilation game and I don't feel overpowered at all. I feel like I fit in perfectly with the power level and so does everyone else. Our party loves my character and they don't feel like she steals the battle spotlight by being too powerful or makes anyone redundant. And, she is the most fun I've had playing any type of cleric. I agree with you, Twilight Cleric isn't power creep, it is the game designers realizing how to synergize a class' given abilities better. We shouldn't ban or berate a class for being able to rise to its potential.
The peace domain cleric makes me think of what I wanted the rouge mastermind or any of the other commander style sub classes to be like moving your party around and buffing their abilities
"Si vis pacem, para bellum" is adapted from "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" ("Therefore let him who desires peace prepare for war") found in 4th century Latin writings. But the basic idea dates back to earlier works by not only Plato, and also some Chinese authors. 😁
I played a unity domain cleric back when that was the hot new UA subclass and it was probably one of my favorite subclasses ever. However, having said that, my favorite character that I've played in recent memory is a reprise of that character with the new Peace Domain. Specifically, this character is a Kalashtar Peace Cleric whose deity is a homebrew one inspired by the first campaign party I ever DMed for. The different tenets of the religion and the aspects of the deity itself were inspired by the different personality traits and aspects of the five party members. While there is a more twilight, starry, and overall space-y theme to the deity and the character, they ultimately represent unity under one giant banner: the night sky. While this sounds childish, I would have been genuinely upset if Peace as a domain got anything less than an S, not only because the abilities are incredibly powerful, but because of the incredible memories I've had playing this character for as long as I have.
I mean, the party is already strong. But a Battlesmith Artificer with their Steel Defender, both ubercharged with Temp HP...they are bonecrushingly strong.
I'm wrapping up a Strahd campaign and our Twilight domain cleric has come in clutch SO many times. Having 300 ft darkvision in Castle Ravenloft became insanely useful.
I think this is the first time I have heard the Dungeon Dudes say that the A rank is the sweetspot that they want subclasses to be at. That one line just recontextualized this entire video series for me. This whole time I thought they were basically saying if it is not S rank then its not worth playing, where as most of my favorite subclasses kept landing in the A rank. I feel a lot better about my choices I have made in character creation now.
I just finished a mid-level campaign as a Twilight Cleric dragonborn in RotFM which turned into a character-driven campaign. OMG it was the most fun class I've played! I loved it more than my Druid and Monk and I used everything all the time. Twilight Sanctuary is amazing, it's such a wide radius and the spells are amazing. Such a super fun subclass for those who want to play support and hit well.
I think Peace and Twilight domain might be the first true case of S+ if not higher. It truly shows that the playtesting team at WOTC have no idea how their game runs. Both subclasses flip the math of the game on its head and make CR levels pointless, especially hordes at earlier levels. They didn't learn their lesson about stacking abilities on the first level after the Hexblade became the number one multiclass dip. Along with the other optional rules presented in Tasha's, WOTC has given arguably the best class in the game even more power. I think giving clerics the ability to regain a spell slot and then giving Tiny hut to the Twilight Domain steps to much on the Wizard class. I know at my table I have banned the Twilight and Peace domain as they outpace most other subclasses in the game. These subclasses are prone to incredible synergy with a teamwork and later levels would prove close to impossible to kill.
I have a Twilight Cleric player in one of my Icewind Dale campaigns and they've just hit 5th so his party will be making use of his Tiny Hut as much as the two of his allies have with his Eyes of Night ability. Has been good fun so far.
Lord help me. I'm running a one shot and one of my players is set on playing one of these, and I'm extremely hesitant to outright ban or nerf this busted subclass for the sake of her fun.
I'm playing a cleric for the first time and I opted to go with Twilight Domain to be that true support hero. I'm so excited to progress in the game and see where it goes.
This (Twilight Domain) is actually the only subclass I won’t let into my game. It is just too much; it gets everything. I feel like one of the writer’s significant others/best friends just kept begging to make something and the writer/designer gave it and said, “go ham!” It is the Superman of cleric subclasses.
Considering how powerful the twilight cleric is on its own, I think it would be cool to see you guys do a ranking of all the S tier subclasses at the end of tasha's cauldron. Sure each class brings different things to the table but a list of the top tier would be a cool video
I’ve been saying something for awhile that not many people have liked for mainly one reason. I want a 5.5e Players Handbook, one that scales up the power of all of the Players Handbook and Xanathar’s subclasses to be on a level playing field with the new introductions. The main thing that I’ve heard thats against this idea is that they’d rather have 6th edition, to which I would like to point them to the overwhelming success of 3.5 and how it came through and fixed a lot of 3e’s problems. If you’ve any other arguments, let me hear them, but until then, I think that 2022 should bring a 5.5e Players Handbook scaling up a lot of those low tier subclasses to be on par with the better ones.
There's definitely a lot of stuff they could fix. Moon Druid transformations could have a Tasha's style stat block that scales appropriately with level, instead of being unspeakably broken at level 2, and meh at level 8. I'd like to see CHA to weapon attacks (the hexblade ability) be turned into a warlock invocation that any warlock can take at level 2, so that gish builds have more than one available subclass.
Twilight domain is absolutely, unequivocally, overpowered, and in a bad way. I fully support any DM who doesn't want to allow the class, at least as written. I for one, would not allow the class at my table without substantial modifications to several parts of their kit, primarily the channel divinity. Their channel divinity in terms of power is equivalent to what I would consider a 6th or 7th level spell. They get this at level 2, and it recharges on short rests. "ooooh, just make the challenges harder 4head", "oooooh, you're banning fun, do you hate fun?" -If a single player is overpowered, it can diminish the fun of other players at the table. Adversity brings camaraderie. -This is NOT a case of players vs. DM. I want everyone to have fun. Being overpowered is fun for 1 player, and IN MY EXPERIENCE, it diminishes the fun for everyone else. I'm looking out for everyone at the table. -Yes, I absolutely could rebalance all the encounters around this absurdly overpowered support character, but you know what...maybe I don't want to.
The ONLY reason Twilight Cleric was not immediately my runaway favourite subclass of Tasha's and possibly all of D&D ... was because Stars Druid dropped at the same time, and it's just so hard to resist an ability to turn into a *humanoid starfield*. Tasha's has been absolutely excellent for my starry dreams
I've got a player who's asked me about multiclassing into this. I think, after listening to you guys talk about it I not only have a better idea of how to work it in, but what I'm gonna be in for when she does.
I play my Goliath Twilight Cleric as a tank more then a cleric lol. Take Heavy Armor Master Activate Twilight Sanctuary and Spirit Guardian, grapple away :-D
I'm about to build my first cleric in 5e: a Twilight Cleric, and I'm very excited (my last cleric character was in 4e). Time to check your build video next!
I've always kinda assumed that for really OP subclasses, the C and D ranks from the community are from people rating it bad because of the power level. There's also trolls but I feel like it's mostly the former. So I just lump them in with the S tier ratings.
I really think it would be healthy to go through all of the additional subclasses introduced in Tasha's as well as all the little weird stuff that bumps one subclass over another, and then afterwards do a rapid fire tierlist for each class again and adjust as needed. I really do think its needed. Some previous A and S tiers just dont even make sense anymore, when considering them in the light of these new goodies.
Twilight Sanctuary is simply broken, there is no way around it. It basically invalidates all (other) healing and temp hp gaining powers. And since it comes back at short rest and you get two of these early, you can drop it in basically every battle. This trivilaizes any combat from a recource conservation standpoint. It woudl still be S tier, if it would be 1d6+Profiency modifier.
Yes, but you can always buff your monsters and villians. It's easier to buff them to match the party than the otherway around. Sure it's advice that's repeated over and over, but it's the easiest way to rebalance an encounter.
Circle of the Shepard Druids can do this with their Auras with use Wildshape (also a short rest recharge, and they get empowered healing). Hex-Blades and Vengeance Paladins can also be busted but everyone still wants to play them. Buff your villains, monsters or even throw in environmental effects to challenge the players and use the Twilight cleric as a safety blanket so the Party never feels totally overwhelmed but still might face a challenge. Crank out the high CR monsters and just have fun with it. I'm sure your players will love fighting a Nightwalker at level 8-9 and come out alive but bruised and be like "That was awesome!"
I have been playing twilight cleric in my campaign for the last few months and have LOVED every aspect of the subclass but what really made it feel overpowered for me was when I popped by channel divinity and had aura of vitality going at the same time and after that turn was able too keep everyone alive and healthy while standing in the center of the party throwing out toll the dead and guiding bolts finishing the encounter will the entire party at full health and this was at 6th level. This wasn't a class I chose because I thought it would be this strong, it just felt really cool and I loved the idea of the 300y dark vision.
Enemy fighter: "Cleric, don’t your domain have some pretty specific things to say about killin’?"
Peace Domain Cleric: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."
I see your Firefly reference. Nice
Epic reference
Shiny.
Actually, I first imagined my Twilight Ceric as a mash-up of Book and Zoe.
Nice reference
Peace Domain: "The battlefield is at its most peaceful when all my enemies are dead :) "
"I'm only at peace when every enemy within 100 square miles is dead. As my friends aid me in this gleeful slaughter I bless them constantly, it's been years since they've missed an attack. None can stand against us." (How to turn your players into the antagonists :D)
@Mane As a peace domain Cleric I approve of this message!
"I cherish peace with all my heart. I don't care how many men, women, and children I need to kill to get it."
I say the whole world must learn of my peaceful ways, by force!
"There can't be conflict between sides when there's only one side left"
Kelly:"Would you rather use [Emboldening Bond], or would you rather cast Bless?"
Monty:"They stack."
That was a fantastic moment. I also noticed that a cut followed that statement. I imagine Kelly lost it for a minute.
The fact that they stack, is why I want to do a peace cleric
Peace Cleric is the only one that I've heard someone call for a ban/nerf. "Assuming that with average to hit bonus and average enemy AC you hit about 65% of the time..." is going straight out the window if your whole party gets +2d4 on an attack roll. As long as a frontline fighter like a barbarian, paladin or fighter is in the party, the DM basically has to think about just increasing enemy AC by 1 or 2 to still challenge the group.
@@Past0rM4n I'll bet that the cut was them rushing to look up the rules in Tashas.
That was just as good as Kelly realizing that "Simulacrum" works on other people as well 😂
"if clerics are the bass players of a D&D party, then the twilight cleric is Flea of the Red Hot Chili Peppers." (Kelly McLoughlin, 2021)
As a bass player myself, I BIG APPROVE of this comment 😂✨
Who's JPJ though?
This makes me want to play a Teilight Cleric now - Flea was a huge inspo to me starting out playing bass
@UCoholwHIrbZtavkMV7oA84Q Hah. This guy's got jokes.🙄😉
I mean what subclass would he be. Just curiosity.
@@CreamyPesto505 hence why I deleted the first comment 😂
Thought you might not notice...
I'd say War Domain?
Shameless TFS Reference:
"So, it is a crusade!"
"No! No no no no no we don't call it that anymore its umm... what do the Americans call it again?"
"Peace Keeping?"
"Yeah! Lets go keep the peace"
id feel attacked if it wasnt sooooo accurate
@@mattspatz7097 ah ha, another person of fine tastes.
"Winning the hearts and minds."
The Twilight Domain cleric going on a very enthusiastic midnight walk.
The dudes are making an excellent argument for a Peace Domain Cleric as the party coach. He give his teammates guidance, orange slices, and high fives.
Current “pep talk” is cast aid on myself, barbarian and Hexblade at my highest slot that I have at least two (currently that is 4th) increasing max HP by 15. I found a breastplate of heroism that allows me to grant temporary HP equal to my level plus my CON modifier to the entire party once every long rest (that is an additional 13 HP, lvl 9 and a +4 CON) then in fight it is bond the barbarian, the Hexblade and his SHIELD GUARDIAN, Bless on those three and finally sanctuary on myself as I wade into the fray and use the help action to grant advantage. Still don’t know if we are allowing UA feats, if so picking up Master Tactician makes that even more of a powerful option.
“You’re not a pacifist … you’re an accessory”. LOL
.... to great violence, no less.
I am a man of peace, but I am no pacifist
Cannot the same be said to any wizard who doesn't take any spells that cause damage?
"You cannot spell pacifist without fist. Which you need to throw a punch" -Sarge
@@hexerblade4032 was that a RVB reference?
As someone who currently is playing a twilight cleric, I can say with absolute certainty it is an absolute BONKERS class.
My minmax friend: "Twilight ain't that strong."
Me, his DM: "lol no"
Especially because the CD gives dim light so you can chillingly flying arround.
I absolutely agree. I'm also playing a Twilight Cleric, but I mixed in the Stars Druid and my fuck. I don't think y party can physically be killed anymore.
I caused everyone in my party to over 100 HP and caused us to have minimum 12 temporary HP every round. It's amazing.
@@Korren1125 I know right? And the fact that it SCALES with level. I personally think the twilight cleric is probably the most over powered support in the game at the moment.
A level 2 ability that gives temp hp, or REMOVES a fear or charm effect? At the end of someone's turn, and requiring no action econ at all.
But tonnnnssss of fun haha
From the playtest material... it was originally named "Unity" which made SOOOO much more sense than "Peace". Because all of the cleric abilities are about keeping the party within 30ft of each other to get the benefits of the Unity cleric.
That makes so much more sense! I like that.
Twilight Domain: exists
Counter Charm: Am I a joke to you?
Countercharm’s a joke to everyone, im pretty sure.
Countercharm is a joke to everyone. We homebrewed it in my game where it's a bonus action to do, and you can spend a resource (a bardic inspo) to allow anyone currently charmed or frightened in range to immediately make a saving throw with advantage.
I simply homebrewed it to "it just removes fear and charm from everyone" and costing a standard action to do so still is a feels bad.
But hey, at least it's not useless like favorite terrain.
The first time I hear the words Counter Charm, I thought immediately it’d a free Counter Spell for charm affects and able to turn back the charm back to that creature is they fail a wisdom saving throw.
My brain works in mysterious ways
@@bubbles9829 That actually sounds fun for a glamour bard custom level up ability, thanks for the idea xD
Peace and Twilight Domain are so overpowered. Frankly, a lot of the older subclasses need to catch up to the new subclasses in Tasha's. The sorcerer subclasses are in dire need of a fix to catch up to Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul.
I would argue that the Peace domain is THE most powerful subclass especially if you have a Paladin and a bard. If you play it smart you will never ever miss except on Natural 1s. Its ridiculously powerful, and I don't even like clerics
I am currently playing a twilight cleric and am only 5th level. After this episode,..... I feel like I'm sitting on an untapped oil well..... I've barely scratched the surface. Honestly I had the other players, were all humans btw, complain that I gave darkvision to them so they can see in the dark...... Other than that I've no complaints
@@spellister one of my players is playing A Twilight domain in the next campaign I'm a bit tentative to let him but I don't want to ban anything before they prove that they're actively trying to break the game. Most of the new sub classes are really, really powerful. Especially the Cleric subclasses, Rune Knight and Phantom
I agree. honestly, I think the other Sorcerer subclasses (other than the Divine Soul because it has access to the cleric spell list) need a spell list in the same way that the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul get one, to restore some game balance. How about an elementally inspired list for the Draconic Sorcerer, and spells that deceive or confuse for the Wild Magic Sorcerer?
@@zacharywalter8179 if you have a halfling with bountiful luck and everyone has the lucky ability the party is just immortal lol
For Eyes of Night (22:30) you forgot the "unless you expend a spell slot of any level to share it again." Which I think makes it more flexible to use instead of holding onto it for the "right" moment.
Peace Domain "Nothing more peaceful than a cemetery. Time to turn this village into one"
Now that's a great LoopHole.
I laughed hard at this lol:p
Fantastic, thank you
Even better is that the Domain for Twilight cleric is "filled with" dim light, which even if your outdoors in bright light can create a spot for you to take off with Steps of the Night and gain that sweet sweet flying speed
Hey dungeon bros.. don't sleep on this. The synergy here is incredible!!
Twilight Sanctuary provides its own dim light centered on you wherever you move, regardless of mechanism......
Eh, as a DM I might not allow that. Dim light within bright light doesn't make any kind of sense to me.
@@lordzaboem I view it as not so much adding dim light to an already lit space, but pulling shadows or whatever to reduce the bright light down to dim light. But that's just my read on it, obviously it's not written either way so it's open to interpretation.
@@lordzaboem I see it as the player darkening the space around them, or despite the time of day, the area around the character appears to be dark out as if it were twilight. From your reasoning the Darkness spell shouldn't be able to work in bright light either because creating a space of darkness in light doesn't make any kind of sense. And my answer to both of these is... it's magic.
The twilight domain is also perfect for a cleric of Eilistraee. The Dark Maiden is smiling on me.
Or Selune.
It's perfect for a hexblood of the Sora Kell too.
The fluff/flavor of the class is *really* good, on top of everything else.
Eilistraee was the first goddess I thought of for a twilight cleric when Monty mentioned a group of all elven characters including a gloom stalker, blade singer, twilight cleric, and moon Druid as a 4 party group that would be the perfect combination of classes when he mentioned they might be dark elves or some sort of twilight elves.
One of my players will actually run a character like that soon.
Peace Domain: Insanely abusable abilities.
Twilight Domain: Insanely good at what it does.
I’m playing a twilight cleric in a party with an ancestral guardians barbarian right now, we are so good at preventing damage
I played an echo knight fighter who multiclassed ancestral guardians and twilight. Made for very interesting and fun positional gameplay.
@@Kipex That does sound fun. I thought about pairing Echo Knight with Trickery Cleric + Mirror Image for mass confusion.
Dungeon Dudes looking for sponsors:
"Fine, I'll do it myself."
Prediction: this may be the only time Treantmonk and the Dudes agree on the tier of something… that the classification for these subclasses is Bonkers tier.
They are comparing the subclasses differently though. Treantmonk is comparing against all subclasses in the game against one another and Dudes are comparing subclasses against the same class.
@@PowderKeg3838 yeah, I know. But broadly speaking I don’t mean they have disagreements in terms of the literal tier, it is the actual interpretation of how good classes are. The trickery domain is a good example of a class they view in completely different ways.
@@PowderKeg3838 Yup. And Treantmonk's ratings have a much higher threshold for them. S tier for Dudes is just a very good subclass. S tier for Treantmonk is "Oh God it's so broken don't ever pick that". So even if he places subclass in a lower tier doesn't always mean his opinion is that different.
They don't agree at all. Dungeon Dudes just said they love these subclasses. Treatmonk said he hates them. That's about as far apart as you can get. Both of them saying the subclasses are powerful is just stating a fact like saying water is wet; that isn't agreement.
Treantmonk: "These classes are stupidly powerful and honestly they shouldn't exist in their current form, I hate them." vs. Dudes: "These subclasses are stupidly powerful and game breaking, and we love them for it. (ok, maybe twilight might be a slight problem)" Same ranking, but really a very different conclusion. I'm with Treantmonk on this one, these classes make it really hard to balance combat and keep things fun and challenging. Encounters that would be deadly for most parties literally become trivial with either of these clerics around.
Regarding Balm of Peace, this is also a great way to heal AFTER a fight. At level 6, it's a potential 4d6 + (2 x WIS mod), then a short rest gets your Channel Divinity charges back.
Every time I hear your guys’ intro, I in my head go “WEEeee cover everything dungeons and draGOOOOOOONS” like Travis Wilingham at the start of Critical Role episodes lmao
Y do U do dat do
...And now I'm gonna hear that in my mind, too...
Hahaha, I’m going to hear this all the time now, thanks. :)
For twilight domain. Your channel divinity says your sphere is filled with dim light which means you can activate flight while in the sphere.
Unless your DM interprets that as simply _adding_ dim light to the current area -- which, if in bright light, would remain bright light (like turning on a flashlight outside at noon).
@@bigdream_dreambig the wording to me seems like it would go either way. but it may be too op that at any time you can fly when you CD
Oh yes, just to note, Balm of Peace can also act as a free Dash and Disengage action considering it doesn't use your actual movement speed. :0
oh wow, that makes it a lot better.
Oh yeah, a level 8 wood elf Monk can move 180 feet with this channel divinity
Yeah, they missed this in their review. It is actually what helps keep this channel divinity relevant at high levels of play. The ability to reposition ,y cleric on the battlefield with impunity, while also healing, while also still being able to cast/use another bonus action spell has gotten me and my party out of so many tight spots!
There is some new Priests in Town, and they are here to do a lot more than healing.
I don't think they are here to heal... but to kick a$$.
@@JohnSmith-mn2ip they kick ass for the Lord!
I wear the armor of the Apothecarian
I love the twilight domains flavor of the Shield cleric. In the sense you get temp hit points they mitigate damage very well. I think a twilight cleric/divination wizard would be REALLY fun to play
What means this
Imagine the scene: an enlaged centaur Twilight cleric flying with a raging barbarian on it's back
I did that it was amazing
Or, alternatively, the Barbarian is also the cleric. I have a multiclass build with 3 levels of cleric and the rest barbarian. It's pretty nuts at lower levels. I've taken Zealot, but if you wanna be the ultimate tank, just get bear. You get the replenishing temp HP, resistance to all damage, and also can cleanse yourself off of charms which are the scariest thing to a barbarian. Oh, and you can also cast Aid and heal a little between rests.
26:50 Genie warlock can also get concentration free flight and greater invisibility at level 7
But it doesn't get constant temp HP.
@@durnsidh6483 I know that it’s not a temp hp tank but it still gets the free flight and greater invisibility, combine that with eldritch blast or maybe even a familiar and you’ve got quite the combo.
As someone who just started to play a Twilight Cleric, if there is a category above S, it absolutely belongs there. If everyone stays within my twilight sanctuary, we can chew through pretty much everything, either I could give hitpoints, or just negate anything that wants to charm or frighten my member and I'm only lvl 3
I hope for you, that your DM doesn't decide that the enemies are going to grapple and drag the cleric away so that it's allies can beat up your teammates. Yes Twilight can be strong, but the things that make it strong can be worked around. Especially if you can homebrew monsters. A monster with lots of large diameter aoe attacks that steal temp hp and the temp hp does stack for the monster, inflicts stun/paralizes for the next rounds to any enemies on whom the fear or charm condition ends, switches it's 30'' ft darkvision with that of all non friendly creatures with more darkvision than it has, has enemies automatically fail their saving throw if they are in dim light or darkness and can share most of these with its minions combined with hit and run tactics will (I think) have a twilight cleric struggle considerable. Oh and the warlock will hate him too for stealing his armor of agathys temp hp.
Seems like the peace domain is more of a leadership domain. I can definitely see a lawful evil politician egging his party on with plausible deniability, or a good coach for a team.
Coach: Okay, let's get 'em! *party gets their butts handed to them* Okay guys, good hustle, good hustle! *high five heals the group*
I love the second one
I can Imagine a bad bod peace domain
And since there is a dad bod bard meme
Imagine have 2 dad bod dads in the party
that was the original theme of the class back when it was unity. They didn't change it that well to fit the new theme. Why does peace still have a communication based spell after they changed it from a civilization based subclass
So you are saying Palpatine is a Peace Cleric?
@@nickm9102 exactly. I think the domain was poorly named, although someone could do all he did "in the name of peace"
I reflavoured my peace cleric to a "community cleric" who actually serves as a pillar of support and leadership in her community. It wasn't planned: the domain really helped bringmout that aspect of leadership in her
I feel like a lot of older classes should have gotten a boost in Tasha's to bring them up to the same levels. Not just with Clerics... like Sorcerers should all have expanded spell list.
When I was trying to choose a class for a one-shot character, people were telling me I had to take Tasha's ones since they were just better, but they didn't fit my character concept at all. I didn't end up taking a Tasha's class but I was made to feel like I missed out and took something subpar. They had a chance in tasha's to make changes to some of the others and didn't, so I doubt they will, but they really should.
There are plenty of homebrewed extended spell list for sorcerers now-a-days, and I’m sure you could make your own for any other class that needed it. That being said, not all the subclasses in previous books are worse, it’s just a lot more varied. So, play the characters you want, and don’t feel bad about it!
maybe in 5.5/6e/whatever it's gonna be called
Watching this feels like validation of the utter mess I've made of my DMs campaign. Idk when is the last time someone fell in battle because of my Twilight Sanctuary. But I can tell you how many times players died or nearly died even playing a Life Domain. It is an insane class and I love it.
I feel like they should have kept the name for Peace domain as the Unity domain, because it really is more about keeping your friends together and alive more than anything.
Beautiful
I'm currently playing a Twilight Cleric/Gloomstalker, and I fuckin love it. I initially designed him just with flavor in mind, but the two subclasses actually have great synergy. Flying in the dark while being invisible to darkvision? Fuck yeah.
Weird but flavorful combo, I went Twilight Cleric/Circle of Stars druid. No heavy armor bc of the druid at later levels, but I love it nonetheless.
@@snazzyfeathers I stuck with medium armor, to make some use of my high dex. It's a character that I came up with the backstory with and then chose classes that would fit. He's a Crinti, which is a hybrid race made of high elves, Drow, and humans. Used to be a marauder, hence the Gloomstalker, until he became a worshipper of Eilistraee, making him a Twilight Cleric.
Ive thought of this combo quite a bit, a drow Gloomstalker Twilight domain. A night terror
Only problem is, twilight sanctuary doesn't synergise with Umbral Sight, since Umbral Sight requires darkness to work and not dim light. Twilight cleric doesn't provide darkness, so it doesn't contribute much except the flight. And I'm not sure it's so much worth to dip 6 levels into cleric.
@@Notsogoodguitarguy 6 levels in cleric is amazing, cleric spell list is cracked
for the twilight cleric: twilight sanctuary is a 30 ft radius of dim light so steps of night work well with this. pop your channel divinity as an action and fly with your bonus action
The Twilight Sanctuary moves with you. If you fly away, aren't you removing the benefits to the other party members?
@@lordzaboem it is a 30 ft radius so you can stay 15 ft above the ground and your party members will stay have the temp hitpoints if they stay in the bubble
besides I was saying that it could work together for when there is no dim light or darkness to fly even outside of combat
This is interesting. I just did some quick math on a piece of scratch paper. Being at feet off the ground will reduce affected ground cover of the sphere from about 2800 square feet to about 700 square feet, or a fourth the size of a circle for allies on the ground. That's tightly packed (depending on the size of the map) but still feasible.
@@lordzaboem That's how _I_ would run it, but don't forget that there are some DMs who insist that spherical spells like fireball are actually a square -- or cube, I guess, if extending into 3 dimensions. (This happens when they extrapolate from diagonal distances on a square grid requiring the same movement as perpendicular distances -- which is one interpretation, but not the one I use.)
@@bigdream_dreambig You've got a point there.
Very interesting points about the power creep. I would love a video about "fixing" the PHB subclasses. What would you do to bring them up to the level of tashas content?
Why is the power level of tasha’s inherently better than the power level of the PHB? So why buff the PHB instead of nerfing Tasha’s? Both achieve the same goal of both books being on a similar power level. Nerfing all of the Tasha’s subclasses in fact has more merit because while the challenge rating system doesn’t work perfectly, we might as well try to keep it functional rather than throw it completely off irrevocably.
@@Exisist5151 i would rather buff than nerf for every players enjoyment. I as dm can scale encounters accordingly
@@SWElewa So when the next bit of powercreep comes out are you going to ask for Tasha’s and the PHB to both get updates? Eventually if this process were to continue every few years or so there would need to be reworks for all other existing classes and subclasses on a semi-regular basis.
@@Exisist5151 you are assuming that the next releese will have the same PC. We will see when we get there
@@Exisist5151 As a counterpoint, some of the PHB subclasses are brokenly underpowered(Looking at you, Ranger). While the cleric subclasses may be some of the extreme outliers as far as power creep goes, some of the base classes are only on more of an equal level with others because of a subclass published later. There needs to be some more work done on the initial subclasses and some of the base classes in general.
10:27 You will not dishonor Phil Swift and the sealing power of Flex Tape, as he slaps it on with the might of Zeus
As an older player, I think that the publishers recognized that most people in 3.5 did not enjoy playing a cleric and so they went and made clerics in 5e WAY better, and conversely since everyone played Rangers 5e really made the Ranger a niche class to play. I totally agree with the end statement that compared with other classes, most, if not all, cleric classes would be in that A tier. Like Jo Cat said, you can have a part of all clerics called A-Men and none of them would be the same cleric. Excellent explanations, great analysis, thanks for sharing Dungeon Dudes.
I’d honestly love to see you guys fix or make older subclasses more close to what recent subclasses are in terms of power level.
Agreed! I would love to see them take a crack at home brewing to match the new power level.
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this before, but if you know you are going into battle before hand, initiative is an ability check...adding a d4 to initiative for a number of characters could be big
Holy crap nearly 800k on your Kickstarter. Way to go guys you deserve it.
Having both a Peace Cleric and Twilight Cleric in the same party would be game shattering. Encounters will either be cakewalks or TPK’s
Excellent, as always. Thank you guys. I love the shenanigans of how you guys talk about the rules. Self-harm teleport, and a blanket for dark powered flight! I love it. Still a fan of the Light Domain myself.
As a DM, I would definitely let the players know that choosing a Twilight Cleric means the difficulty of the game will increase significantly. I think that giving them more dangerous encounters transparently means the Twilight Cleric can really shine. They STILL keep the whole party up, btw.
“… a party of stupid humans who can’t see anything in the dark …”
Meanwhile, Variant Human is the goto for building any class.
Custom lineage is better now, and you can get dark vision in place of a skill proficiency. The +2 to one stat plus a half feat means 18 main stat at level 1.
Personally I hate both options and I would not allow a +3 on an ability at level one
@@DnDAnalysis if you are playing Adventures League then Half Elf is the better choice since the decided that you can replace a +2 to a stat with a Feat so half elf gets everything Variant Human gets but with 60ft dark vision and 2 skills instead of one. Plus if you choose to you can replace the 2 skills with any one ability of the High Elf, Wood Elf, or Drow.
@@nickm9102 I did not know that, cool. I still prefer custom lineage for the +2 to main stat and a half feat getting you to 18 at level 1. I wouldn't be surprised to see it banned at a lot of tables honestly. I do love the half elf package, though.
Oh my god I was waiting to hear what they had to say about Twilight Clerics. I am currently playing as a Twilight Cleric Satyr and it's the most fun I've had in D&D, and instead of just being a unique little fun subclass, it's super good as well; i've been able to do so much while being super helpful. Whoever made this subclass deserves a raise.
also with wording with half cover there is ability that can ignore that +2 to AC like sharpshooter feat
I was going to comment on this too. Some feats, abilities, and spells ignore cover.
Love the Dudes! You are one of the main reasons I just started my first ever D&D campaign as a Twilight Cleric! Keep rolling, guys!
We took Balm of Peace a bit literally and my guy was essentially clapping party members on the back with Tiger Balm in dire situations. Worked beautifully as a Level 2 dip from a Mercy Monk with 45 ft of movement
You guys might have to give this S+ because you two forgot that after sharing your Eyes of Night feature, you can expend a spell slot OF ANY LEVEL to use it again. It acts like a prepared Darkvision spell that sacrifices the 8 hour duration for longer distance AND multiple people within one cast and can be cast for free once per long rest.
Also thank you for making me realize there was even more power within the subtle wording of Steps of Night. You are absolutely right that you must be in dim light/darkness to activate it but nothing about staying within it. On a side note, this would only be game breaking if you could share your flight, which is a good thing you can't.
I am currently using the Twilight Domain for my very first cleric character. A centaur in the Iceland Dale module. You have to think about the implications of that power. Sure I am a centaur that is heavy and big but.......think about it. XD
13:17 Or alternatively, the Rogue with a -1 Strength mod slaps themselves, and the Cleric teleports up and takes exactly 0 damage.
Yes and as a Cleric with -1 Strength mod I do this all the time to get the paladin and barbarian to the front. XD.
So glad to see someone else besides me though of this fun D&D hack.
The reason that isn't seen much is because it doesn't work. The wording is "when a creature [...] is about to take damage...", so if the attack is going to deal no damage, teleportation is not prompted.
@@guardian_OfEden it is if you have a home game where the dm follows the rule of cool, which let's be honest is one of the most underutilized rules in D&D
@@CutieKarai I think for a class feature that you're using semi-consistently, you'd need to check in with them and ask specifically for a rules-change, not rely on "The Rule of Cool". Also, my experience says that that's one of the *most* utilized rules in D&D, but that's an entire other conversation in and of itself that is neither here nor there.
@@guardian_OfEden indeed the rule of cool is its own conversation. My dms are pretty good at fitting things like the feature into play, because they want everyone in our campaign to have fun and be able to use our characters features fully.
That said, our 4 dms myself included all talk about things and get a decision one way or the other, before we let things just occur.
You guys have taught me more about each subclasses than reading through the subclasses myself lol. Same with like, all of the rules. I DM’d my first campaign session yesterday and even though I wasn’t fully prepared my friends had a lot of fun and so did I :)
Even if these weren't S tier, domains from Tasha's filled a gap in the options that the pantheons gave us, esp for my clerics. We needed a good PLUR and moon domain, but idk how many knew wotc would go this hard.
The Peace domain's "Walk of high fives" doesn't provoke opportunity attacks as well :)
Nice! I was wondering about that.
Heroism (which is on the spell list) works so well with the teleport ability. Heroism + any sort of resistance makes the temporary hitpoints go so far.
I think it would be fun to do a class/subclass ranking as well.
For example, every archer is viable, but which archers are better than others?
Which buffing support subclass is an A, and which is an S.
Which melee damage dealer is a C tier, etc.
I think this would be an entertaining series and would love to see it.
@@josephmurphy7522
I got a video suggestion today, Treantmonk is doing exactly this and shouts out the Dudes. Pretty solid series so far. He absolutely hates the few S ranks he has given out so far, as they break the game in a way that is fun for no one but the player of that class, and he differs pretty significantly is his rankings from this series.
Twilight cleric is SO BOMB, its my favorite subclass in the game by far. Its crazy strong as well. Power Creep is real
Tasha’s clerics are just a grab bag of power creep with no real thematic binding. You said it best when you said things like Tempest and Forge were honest - they’re clear themes, and their abilities and spells work towards that. On the other hand, what do stackable attack buffs and teleporting have to do with being peaceful? And the Twilight cleric, well… good lord.
Am I the only one who wants to build a Half-orc Peace domain cleric who mistakenly and genuinely believes that he or she is a PIECE CLERIC whose tenants are to chop their enemies into pieces?
He makes pieces with his god.
Rest in piece
Twilight domain shroud thing adds half-cover because there are plenty of effects and abilities that ignore cover. Adding the flat bonus would make the ability even stronger, and the twilight domain is already ridiculously overpowered.
I absolutely love my Twilight Cleric. One thing that’s nuts about it is this excerpt from the Twilight Sanctuary ability, “As an action, you present your holy symbol, and a sphere of twilight emanates from you. The sphere is centered on you, has a 30-foot radius, and is filled with dim light.” This means that you can use Steps of Night while you have the sanctuary up.
A bad thing about the twilight cleric is that it also overshadows temporary hit points from other sources. You want to pick inspirational leader. That is useless because there is a twilight domain cleric in the party
Future Dungeon Dudes video: How to Deal with Power Creep.
That sticker being slapped onto the jug you're referring to, Monty, is Phil Swift and the original Flex Tape commercial. Phil is a Peace Domain patron, if you didn't know.
the twilight domain cleric feels less like a twilight domain cleric and more like a twilight domain godling due to sheer power
My favorite thing about the Twilight Cleric is the ability to fly around like Mary Poppins with an umbrella for the dim light.
Monty: “And finally at first level, you gain the Emboldening Bond feature.”
Me: “Feels like something’s missing here. I think an ability this powerful and broken deserves a bit more oomph behind it.”
*opens a new tab and plays One-Winged Angel as they describe the ability*
“Much better.”
Truly enjoy these ranking videos! Appreciate the update as well.
Imagine having a piece domain cleric and twilight domain cleric in your party. Hell, those two by themselves could be the whole party.
These are SS tier sunglasses. Their booty game changing, they're game breaking.
So... What would a DM do against a Forge-Life-Peace-Twilight setup?
Balance is out the window with a twilight cleric. I had a level 7 party fight a boss that had multiple phases, dealt fireball amounts of damage each attack, attacking 6 times a turn after a long day of dungeon crawling.
They won quite easily, even while playing with massive damage rules.
Now imagine a party with a Twilight Domain Cleric and a Four Elements Monk at the same time, maybe even first time players.
Nothing can go wrong there
Four Elements is basically getting replaced by the UA Ascendant Dragon Monk it seems. I just hope they don't nerf it into the ground in the final release, because it's my favorite Monk subclass now
In my group I'm the always DM and we are just about start a new Game where I'll be playing with a Twilight Domain Cleric PC. I'm so excited and as I am the DM and the most experienced player on my table I think that I'll be able to handle properly the encounters to this powerful subclass.
Peace Cleric is universally banned at most tables I play at. I was frankly quite surprised when you guys were struggling to choose if it was A or S.
I think they didn't consider enough how much it absolutely destroys bounded accuracy and positioning
Why is it banned? Is it the roleplay issue of being a violent peace-lover?
@@lordzaboem No. It is the fact that at level one, the Peace Domains Cleric can double the to hit bonus of 2 characters for an entire combat. Stacking Bless and Emboldening Bond gives those characters an additional +2d4 (6 average) to hit. A level 1 fighter now has a +11 to hit on attack roles. It becomes very ridiculous from the start of the class and it does not slow down.
@@taktikal26 So the PeaceCler is trading all of her healing capability until after the next long rest for a great boost to a teammate in a single encounter. This seems very manageable to me, maybe even a bad trade. Each to his own I guess.
@@lordzaboem 1: The peace cleric isn't trading off any healing capabilities
2: It isn't a single encounter. It's at the very least 2 encounters, increasing with your prof. bonus
3: You're not realizing how much this breaks bounded accuracy. The game expects you to hit 65% of the time, or, on an 8 or higher. With an average of +5 from Bond & Bless to every die roll, now you're hitting on 3 or higher, or 90% of the time. And of course, it's *per turn*, not per round, so even after you get your attack, you're still gonna get to use that for saving throws.
4: Peace Domain doesn't only break bounded accuracy, but, after it gets protective bond, it gets to break positioning as well. Grapples, area control effects, ongoing AOE damage, traps, and Opportunity Attacks all stop being a threat to the party because you can rescue an ally by punching yourself and having them spend a Reaction to intercept the attack.
Personally, I don't think I'd allow for the self-attacking cheese if I was the DM, and I feel like the RAI for the Twilight is that the flying is supposed to be *while* they're in dim light. Granted, their Twilight Sanctuary makes that a moot point since they're surrounded by dim light while it's up, but that's how I interpretted it.
I'd also say that Tasha's is less of Power Creep and more of the designers understanding their mechanics better. The fact that they went back & effectively re-wrote the Ranger and the Beastmaster is probably the best example of this. It still feels like the Ranger and isn't that much more powerful than the PHB version, but the skills just flow together better & don't actively fight each other.
That's why my DM trusts me with more "OP" set-ups, he knows I hate cheese and gaming the system, so I will never do that. I play a Twilight Cleric in our Tomb of Annihilation game and I don't feel overpowered at all. I feel like I fit in perfectly with the power level and so does everyone else. Our party loves my character and they don't feel like she steals the battle spotlight by being too powerful or makes anyone redundant. And, she is the most fun I've had playing any type of cleric.
I agree with you, Twilight Cleric isn't power creep, it is the game designers realizing how to synergize a class' given abilities better. We shouldn't ban or berate a class for being able to rise to its potential.
The peace domain is my fav. 2d4 bonus (+5) trivializes combat. It's similar to giving anyone in your party expertise in any roll they make
The peace domain cleric makes me think of what I wanted the rouge mastermind or any of the other commander style sub classes to be like moving your party around and buffing their abilities
A good quote from the Witcher for the Peace Domain Cleric: "If it's peace you desire, prepare for war."
"Si vis pacem, para bellum" is adapted from "Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum" ("Therefore let him who desires peace prepare for war") found in 4th century Latin writings.
But the basic idea dates back to earlier works by not only Plato, and also some Chinese authors.
😁
I played a unity domain cleric back when that was the hot new UA subclass and it was probably one of my favorite subclasses ever. However, having said that, my favorite character that I've played in recent memory is a reprise of that character with the new Peace Domain.
Specifically, this character is a Kalashtar Peace Cleric whose deity is a homebrew one inspired by the first campaign party I ever DMed for. The different tenets of the religion and the aspects of the deity itself were inspired by the different personality traits and aspects of the five party members. While there is a more twilight, starry, and overall space-y theme to the deity and the character, they ultimately represent unity under one giant banner: the night sky.
While this sounds childish, I would have been genuinely upset if Peace as a domain got anything less than an S, not only because the abilities are incredibly powerful, but because of the incredible memories I've had playing this character for as long as I have.
For the past 7 weeks now, I've been DM'ing for my group. The Twilight Domain Cleric deserves to be feared, I can't lay a scratch on them.
They should have given Twilight a "Z" Tier. I've actually turned away homebrews less broken then Twilight.
I mean, the party is already strong. But a Battlesmith Artificer with their Steel Defender, both ubercharged with Temp HP...they are bonecrushingly strong.
I'm wrapping up a Strahd campaign and our Twilight domain cleric has come in clutch SO many times. Having 300 ft darkvision in Castle Ravenloft became insanely useful.
I think this is the first time I have heard the Dungeon Dudes say that the A rank is the sweetspot that they want subclasses to be at. That one line just recontextualized this entire video series for me. This whole time I thought they were basically saying if it is not S rank then its not worth playing, where as most of my favorite subclasses kept landing in the A rank. I feel a lot better about my choices I have made in character creation now.
I always imagine balm of peace as spongebob prancing around flinging flower petals all over
Meanwhile I'm just over here with my dumb little Death Domain cleric like, "...I think she's neat..."
I just finished a mid-level campaign as a Twilight Cleric dragonborn in RotFM which turned into a character-driven campaign. OMG it was the most fun class I've played! I loved it more than my Druid and Monk and I used everything all the time. Twilight Sanctuary is amazing, it's such a wide radius and the spells are amazing. Such a super fun subclass for those who want to play support and hit well.
I think Peace and Twilight domain might be the first true case of S+ if not higher. It truly shows that the playtesting team at WOTC have no idea how their game runs. Both subclasses flip the math of the game on its head and make CR levels pointless, especially hordes at earlier levels. They didn't learn their lesson about stacking abilities on the first level after the Hexblade became the number one multiclass dip. Along with the other optional rules presented in Tasha's, WOTC has given arguably the best class in the game even more power. I think giving clerics the ability to regain a spell slot and then giving Tiny hut to the Twilight Domain steps to much on the Wizard class. I know at my table I have banned the Twilight and Peace domain as they outpace most other subclasses in the game. These subclasses are prone to incredible synergy with a teamwork and later levels would prove close to impossible to kill.
This guy really knows what he's talking about.
I have a Twilight Cleric player in one of my Icewind Dale campaigns and they've just hit 5th so his party will be making use of his Tiny Hut as much as the two of his allies have with his Eyes of Night ability. Has been good fun so far.
"Ban this domain. I do not say that lightly. Ban this domain." - RPGBOT, on the Peace Domain cleric.
Ya im surprised the dudes are promoting these classes.
Lord help me. I'm running a one shot and one of my players is set on playing one of these, and I'm extremely hesitant to outright ban or nerf this busted subclass for the sake of her fun.
@@theeye8276 why not? Those classes are fun to play. RPGBOT can go F himself
@@jcdenton2187 they are not busted. become better as a dm
@@MsKeylas ah yes, the age old non-response of "git gud"
I'm playing a cleric for the first time and I opted to go with Twilight Domain to be that true support hero. I'm so excited to progress in the game and see where it goes.
This (Twilight Domain) is actually the only subclass I won’t let into my game. It is just too much; it gets everything. I feel like one of the writer’s significant others/best friends just kept begging to make something and the writer/designer gave it and said, “go ham!” It is the Superman of cleric subclasses.
Considering how powerful the twilight cleric is on its own, I think it would be cool to see you guys do a ranking of all the S tier subclasses at the end of tasha's cauldron. Sure each class brings different things to the table but a list of the top tier would be a cool video
I’ve been saying something for awhile that not many people have liked for mainly one reason. I want a 5.5e Players Handbook, one that scales up the power of all of the Players Handbook and Xanathar’s subclasses to be on a level playing field with the new introductions. The main thing that I’ve heard thats against this idea is that they’d rather have 6th edition, to which I would like to point them to the overwhelming success of 3.5 and how it came through and fixed a lot of 3e’s problems. If you’ve any other arguments, let me hear them, but until then, I think that 2022 should bring a 5.5e Players Handbook scaling up a lot of those low tier subclasses to be on par with the better ones.
There's definitely a lot of stuff they could fix.
Moon Druid transformations could have a Tasha's style stat block that scales appropriately with level, instead of being unspeakably broken at level 2, and meh at level 8.
I'd like to see CHA to weapon attacks (the hexblade ability) be turned into a warlock invocation that any warlock can take at level 2, so that gish builds have more than one available subclass.
Twilight domain is absolutely, unequivocally, overpowered, and in a bad way. I fully support any DM who doesn't want to allow the class, at least as written. I for one, would not allow the class at my table without substantial modifications to several parts of their kit, primarily the channel divinity. Their channel divinity in terms of power is equivalent to what I would consider a 6th or 7th level spell. They get this at level 2, and it recharges on short rests.
"ooooh, just make the challenges harder 4head", "oooooh, you're banning fun, do you hate fun?"
-If a single player is overpowered, it can diminish the fun of other players at the table. Adversity brings camaraderie.
-This is NOT a case of players vs. DM. I want everyone to have fun. Being overpowered is fun for 1 player, and IN MY EXPERIENCE, it diminishes the fun for everyone else. I'm looking out for everyone at the table.
-Yes, I absolutely could rebalance all the encounters around this absurdly overpowered support character, but you know what...maybe I don't want to.
The ONLY reason Twilight Cleric was not immediately my runaway favourite subclass of Tasha's and possibly all of D&D ... was because Stars Druid dropped at the same time, and it's just so hard to resist an ability to turn into a *humanoid starfield*. Tasha's has been absolutely excellent for my starry dreams
I've played both... I do love my starry nights and the blues of twilight!
I've got a player who's asked me about multiclassing into this. I think, after listening to you guys talk about it I not only have a better idea of how to work it in, but what I'm gonna be in for when she does.
I play my Goliath Twilight Cleric as a tank more then a cleric lol.
Take Heavy Armor Master Activate Twilight Sanctuary and Spirit Guardian, grapple away :-D
I'm about to build my first cleric in 5e: a Twilight Cleric, and I'm very excited (my last cleric character was in 4e). Time to check your build video next!
I wish my dnd games started on time like these videos.
I played a twilight cleric when it was in unearthed arcana. It was the most op character ever... endless healing
I've always kinda assumed that for really OP subclasses, the C and D ranks from the community are from people rating it bad because of the power level. There's also trolls but I feel like it's mostly the former. So I just lump them in with the S tier ratings.
I really think it would be healthy to go through all of the additional subclasses introduced in Tasha's as well as all the little weird stuff that bumps one subclass over another, and then afterwards do a rapid fire tierlist for each class again and adjust as needed.
I really do think its needed. Some previous A and S tiers just dont even make sense anymore, when considering them in the light of these new goodies.
Twilight Sanctuary is simply broken, there is no way around it. It basically invalidates all (other) healing and temp hp gaining powers.
And since it comes back at short rest and you get two of these early, you can drop it in basically every battle.
This trivilaizes any combat from a recource conservation standpoint.
It woudl still be S tier, if it would be 1d6+Profiency modifier.
and the temp HP you gain at the end of the fight (which probably is less than 1 minute) are there for the next fight!
Yes, but you can always buff your monsters and villians. It's easier to buff them to match the party than the otherway around. Sure it's advice that's repeated over and over, but it's the easiest way to rebalance an encounter.
Circle of the Shepard Druids can do this with their Auras with use Wildshape (also a short rest recharge, and they get empowered healing). Hex-Blades and Vengeance Paladins can also be busted but everyone still wants to play them. Buff your villains, monsters or even throw in environmental effects to challenge the players and use the Twilight cleric as a safety blanket so the Party never feels totally overwhelmed but still might face a challenge.
Crank out the high CR monsters and just have fun with it. I'm sure your players will love fighting a Nightwalker at level 8-9 and come out alive but bruised and be like "That was awesome!"
you can also legit just incapacitate the cleric and twilight sanctuary gone
Also at low levels you have to group up the party so drop AoE spells
I have been playing twilight cleric in my campaign for the last few months and have LOVED every aspect of the subclass but what really made it feel overpowered for me was when I popped by channel divinity and had aura of vitality going at the same time and after that turn was able too keep everyone alive and healthy while standing in the center of the party throwing out toll the dead and guiding bolts finishing the encounter will the entire party at full health and this was at 6th level.
This wasn't a class I chose because I thought it would be this strong, it just felt really cool and I loved the idea of the 300y dark vision.