Part 2 of this video will air on September 8th! We heard lots of constructive feedback on the Barbarian and Bard subclass videos about how we responded to the community poll results alongside our own rankings. We hope that this video demonstrates a more balanced and fair presentation when our opinions differed from those of the community poll. We think it’s important to show our thoughts alongside a diversity of opinions and experience in a respectful and constructive manner, even when we disagree or are being critical. Thank you for your feedback, and we hope you’ll continue to enjoy the rest of this series!
I've been loving this subclass series. I'm not really good at evaluating what Makes a Subclass Good, but seeing things getting broken down mechanically is really neat to see.
This might not be the best place to put this, but I have been in the process of writing a homebrew class (hopefully for eventual publication), and I was wondering if any of the Dungeon Dudes cast or crew would be interested in having a preliminary look at it. I call it the Dragon Champion, and it's based on the idea of a player that has either chosen to serve a dragon of Chromatic, Metallic or Shadow nature, or has been bullied or dominated to do that dragon's bidding. It is a bit of a hefty read, so I understand if none of you are interested, but if anyone of you are, I'd be happy to email you a copy. Thanks for your time, and I'm loving the class rating videos!
It's cool, we're here fo your opinions. It's a nice feature that you compare them with the polls, but most of us wouldn't expect you to change the rankings based on them.
I took a one level dip into forge cleric as eldritch knight and it singlehandedly boosted my usefulness by a substantial amount. And Eldritch knight is already pretty decent.
@@DaRealGoosebumps You have access to very powerful abilities such as making a +1 weapon or armor at level 1 which is really nice, giving you alot of bulk combined with access to healing spells. You also become completely immune to fire damage at later levels which you can combine with a number of cool spells like heat metal making it do you can just grab and hold onto enemies dealing damage to them while you have your spirtual weapon beat the tar out of them also. for play style there's a couple of ways to do it, you can either make yourself a battle healer who is very hard to bring down or make yourself a front line fighter. Lastly you can make weapons and armor using random bits of metal (which incudes coins your carrying) and at later levels animate them to either do tasks (like checking rooms for traps) or simply protecting people by providing cover
Agreed; I'm playing one for a Greek mythology inspired campaign (Bronze Dragonborn), and despite rolling less than optimal stats (had a 14 in Wisdom to start), the DM is constantly frustrated by his inability to hit me for more than a few points of damage at a time, thanks to starting with +1 armor. Plus with Spiritual Weapon, Dragonborn lightning breath, and my presence on the front lines, I have tanked boss fights while the Bard and Fates-bound Warlock dealt with secondary objectives, effectively preventing the party from being overrun.
@goosebumps I had a player in Curse of Strahd play one. The campaign as written makes acquiring armor above chain mail for more than 1 person nearly impossible and almost no magic items exist. Our forge cleric at lvl7 uses fabricate to give everyone in the party Full Plate raising their own AC to 22 (18+2 shield+1 forge magic ability +1 Forge cleric wearing heavy armor) and waded into battle maintaining Spirit Guardians. With resist fire not even fire ball made a dent on his character. Edit: Normally fabricate does not allow you to make Armor and other finely constructed items UNLESS you have smithing tools and proficiency in it. Which Forge Cleric has....and the spell is instantaneous so it didnt even take weeks or anything to craft the party stuff....
I have a Forge Cleric Warforged named Furnace. He is the product of warforged corpse, a group of college aged artisan guild students late on a project, and divine intervention from a god of the forge.
I just finished a campaign playing as a Death Domain Cleric, so I gotta defend the name. The sixth level ability ignores necrotic resistance, so that criticism doesn't really hold much water since most enemies that do resist necrotic damage tend to be mid-high level threats. Also, if you are willing to dip two level into Necromancy Wizard the sub-class really shines. Getting access to Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade (my pick for flavor reasons) really boosts your power output from your cantrips working really well with the Divine Strike feature. This option is available for a lot of sub-classes of course, but the real winner for this particular combo is Grim Harvest at lvl 2. Vampiric Touch works very well with both Grim Harvest and Touch of Death, keeping you well healed as you murder your enemies. The Death Domain Cleric is not meant to be played like a typical necromancer, but some skeletal archers to chip in damage here and there never hurts. The Death Domain Cleric is a close range nuker with big damage melee spells. (Also I did pick variant human so I could start with Heavy Armor prof, so there's also that). Edit: Also my campaign stopped at level 15, so the 17th level ability doesn't play into my experience with the class.
I think the main thing they are forgetting with the death domain is that you can set up with spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians and then you can attack with your melee weapon which is enhanced by the subclass at 8th level and you can of course add necrotic damage with channel divinity. I do agree the DD's are underestimating death domain.
They are versatile midfielders. I played mine with a glaive and warcaster to not need the heavier armor. I then could build up an undead shield wall within an antilife shell and still do what was needed.
Arcana clerics get a reasonably strong ability at first level: Arcane Initiate. Two wizard cantrips, likely fire bolt and another damage dealer or mage hand, go a long way toward keeping the cleric useful from the very beginning. Dispel magic is indispensable and scales through all levels of play. Proficiency in the Arcana skill is also quite nice, even if the cleric doesn't have the intelligence to back it up. Potent Spellcasting was also glossed over completely. An 8th level Arcana cleric will likely have a 20 Wisdom and therefore gets +5 to their damage output. That's not insignificant for a caster who will be also using Spiritual Weapon if at range.
Potent spellcasting only works on cantrips, though. Doesn't help you with spiritual weapon. Still not bad, though. Arcane initiate is useful, I agree. Extra cantrips are always nice.The rest of the features just aren't amazing until 17th level. As for dispel magic, clerics already have it on their spell list. And I don't think it's one of those spells you necessarily need to have prepared 24/7, which makes it not the best for your subclass spell list.
Yes, they will *also* be using Spiritual Weapon, so a strong ranged one-two punch. Wizard damage cantrips are second only to Eldritch Blast for damage. Dispel Magic is an essential spell slot that is freed up for other things. It is most definitely a 24/7 spell slot if you ever get to tier 3. My point is that Arcana clerics are not simply waiting around for 17th level to be effective at what they do which is what you and the Dungeon Dudes seem to be thinking.
Yeah, I agree. Also, the Spell Breaker is amazing. I think that most of people never came across Arcana Cleric enough that they don´t remember all the features. Arcana is an A, tbh.
I started playing the Cleric a long time ago. because, "no one wanted to be the cleric." I have learned to absolutely love this class for it's versatility. Today, I will build a Cleric, unless someone else openly states that they want to play one.
Dude, same. I'll play a Cleric even if there's someone else in the party playing Cleric. I've just had the conversation that, "We're two different domains, so there's RP potential over the differences in philosophy. And trust me, how ever you think a Cleric is supposed to play, I'll play it differently." 😁 My group has even discussed playing an all Cleric one-shot, each from a different domain.
Bring a full team of Clerics of different subclasses, be called the A-men.. might have some different personalities and goals but got a very versatile team
Mass Dispel Magic, turning over half of the game's enemy types, and potent spellcasting paired with wizard cantrips; all widely overlooked for the Arcana Domain.
The only downside to the Forge Domain I want to address is that it doesn’t gain proficiency in martial weapons. This is often overlooked due to the fact that it’s paired so often with Dwarves, but it’s still worth mentioning.
It is an issue, but I enjoy the challenge of figuring out a different way to be a threat on the battle field and be able to tank. Different than other clerics that is. I want to play them all. Except nature. ;)
I don't really view that as a downside since clerics don't get martial weapons by default, and to my knowledge no cleric gets both heavy armor and martial weapons.
A Life Cleric was my first ever character. I loved every aspect of him, S tier for sure. I believe the cool thing about this subclass is that you can use channel divinity to heal (which recovers on short rests) and use slots to do damage/buff allies. Nothing sucks more than spending slots to heal 1d8+wis
Plus it's not considered a 'spell' it's a 'spell-like action' to use your channel divinity to heal. I saved a party by using it to get 3 people back on their feet AND casting bonus action healing word. Managed to bring the Rogue, the Bard and the Wizard back up to half hp, slapped the Rogue with Healing word to keep them in the fight longer. turned what could have been a TPK into a successful end of module boss fight (we were running at 5th edition update to Against the Cult of the Reptile God and a lightning bolt took at 3 out of the 5 party members, leaving just me and the fighter still up).
It took me a long time to realize that the Channel divinity was meant for bringing up people who dropped. Getting someone for 30 hp is amazing. I still remove the half hp limit. I find it is enough of a trouble to divide the health 3 or 4 ways that also limiting half isn't usually needed
I was a little sad that the revamp Spare the Dying gets by the Grave domain didn't get touched on, if only because it takes very useless cantrip (see equipment: healers kit) and makes it so much more useful and effective.
Yeah, its useful. But at the same time its also kinda overwright by the other features of the class itself. You dont need to use it at lower levels as long as you still having spell slots to do that sweet sweet maximazed heal, and at higher lvls you can choose atomatically to kill or stabilize anyone who goes down while in the same range (dont know with you can use it when you're out of range and aproach after, when Spare the Dying could still be a option).
I have very little concern for the powers of a 17th level ability. Maximize heal will be more useful in most cases, but the ability to cast it as a bonus action and still use your regular spell slots because it's a cantrip, gives it a lot more use and versatility then it normally has, which is basically none.
Hard disagree on Arcana cleric, y'all. You get a limited banishment several times a short rest, a free dispel magic with ANY healing you do, and they're kind of amazing. Also, be advised that the spell list contains several ritual spells. So there are several spells you don't need to waste slots prepping, and that adds a lot to the mileage you get out of this domain. :) You make some good points, but this domain is one that is hard to see the potential of on paper. Y'all still get a like for constructive analysis though.
Geoff DeWitt, tamp down the excitement on the ritual spells. You still have to prepare those spells unless you take the Ritual Caster feat. Only Wizards can cast Ritual Spells without preparing them first. That actually makes this subclass *much much worse*, because even if you do take Ritual Caster, you still have a bunch of ritual spells that are auto-prepared for you. You get even less benefit from Ritual Caster because you can't not prepare those spells.
@@NotYourAverageNothing I know that. What I'm getting at is having ritual spells on your spell list is a waste of space. Because they're always prepared, they're always taking space in your spell list, where if you take Ritual Caster you don't have to prepare them. So as a Life Domain cleric, I can take Ritual Caster and have ritual spells which I don't have to prepare (and thus don't take up spots in my spell list), like a wizard can. But because they're locked in on my Arcana domain list, they're just there, they can't be removed and they get no benefit from the Ritual Caster feat.
"Starting at 6th level, the cleric ability to channel negative energy becomes more potent"- Death domain. It says yor channel divinity AND spells ignore resistance to necrotic damage. Now I dont know how many monsters get immunity to necrotic, but it's sort of like elemental adept.
@@wolves600 Are those just from the Monster Manual? I'm pretty sure there are a lot more than 11 creatures resistant to necrotic damage; at least when looking at all the books combined.
@@witcher_helms5144 apparently there are 2600 creatures in dnd and only like 4% of them have necrotic restiances/immunity. Plus you're a necromancer/cleric so you'll have things to deal with any/most undead to begin with. Really Death Domain will hit hard against most creatures.
So for the Arcana cleric: My group had one in Tomb of Annihilation, and Arcane Eye and Dispel Magic came in handy in many situations throughout the campaign, not the least because we didn't have a wizard. Ditto for turning extra planar entities and dispelling with healing . The entire module and the final dungeon was a great playground for that subclass in my experience, and we only got to level ten. On top of this, our cleric was an absolute beast in combat and managed to hold concentration for a silence spell while fighting a sphere of annihilation controlled by the BBEG in the final combat of the campaign. Totally clutch subclass if you can use it well, in my opinion.
I agree. I think their argument against this subclass is really really strange. It has the best level 17 power of all the Cleric subclasses but because it's level 17 and most campaigns don't make it that high, it should be ignored?! Literally none of the other subclasses were viewed with this odd nullifying point. Why is the Forge class so good when the really good topper is level 17 and you'll never reach it? In the negative, even subclasses such as Nature, which has a virtually useless level 17 ability, was not looked at unfavorably in this way. It's like they have some sort of bias against Arcana. So weird! And like you said, they disregarded the Channel Divinity (which becomes a free no concentration banishment eventually), The level 6 dispel with a heal can be a game changer. These are really useful abilities. They really missed the boat on the Arcana subclass.
Yeah. I am playing a knowledge domain with ritual caster Cleric in ToA with no wizard. It's quite useful! A little less wizardly than Arcana, but still filling a similar role.
@@fortunatus1 The forge domain topper is really good in addition to the better spell list and better features, not because of its 17. I don't think they took 17s into consideration at all for it and just added that its capstone feature was either good or useless. Also, spell breaker is helpful, only in campaigns with spells to be dispelled that get cast on people. Some campaigns are not spellcaster-heavy making the feature usefulness dependent on the setting. In a campaign where you only encounter a few spellcasters(not to mention they have to have a spell that affects your party members, which is also another subset of monsters that don't just deal damage or buff themselves), this feature is basically a waste, even in the one situation its helpful, is it worth picking an entire subclass for a feature you only use one time in the campaign? Banishment can also be niche in application so having a free one may not be as useful as expected and certainly not more useful than some other channel divinity options, especially a banishment that only works on certain enemy types and only if they are not on their plane of origin(and below a certain CR)
I would argue in a campaign like that it works better than other campaigns where those features are not as necessary for success. Also holding concentration has nothing to do with the subclass, same with combat, i would argue the subclass is actually subpar in combat, with only potent spellcasting boosting their combat ability(and a good chunk of clerics get that)
I love that you recognize Life Domain can be a hindrance to a well-organized, balanced, and highly competent D&D party....while also recognizing no such D&D party exists 😅
I think Arcana Domain should be reconsidered for several reasons that were never addressed in the original video: 1) Level 1 gets access to 2 wizard cantrips for free including Booming Blade & Green Flame Blade. Since most clerics never get access to extra attack, they can always feel free to use either of these cantrips for better melee damage. At level 8, potent spellcasting adds Wis modifier onto any damage caused which puts them in a good spot for melee damage without needing to burn a Feat for Magic Initiate. What they CAN burn a feat on is Magic Initiate: Druid to get access to Shillelegh and Thorn Whip, making them SAD to attack with Wis, and a pretty good sticky tank if used with Warcaster (this is my current AL build). 2) Spell Breaker at level 6 is a free mass dispel magic which can cure debilitating conditions AND HEAL in the middle of a fight without needing to choose. Enemy casts Synaptic Static? Mass Cure Wounds heals and cleanses your party so your Barb/Fighter doesn't have to worry about Int saves. 3) Arcane Abjuration was glossed over as a lackluster channel divinity against niche enemies, but at 5th level it is basically a concentration-free Banishment that doesn't burn a spell slot. Sure, it may pale in comparison to Radiance of Dawn, but after playing a Forge Cleric throughout CoS I would have much rather had a free Banishment than make random junk up to 100GP a few times throughout the day. 4) Arcane Eye is basically the ultimate scout for your party in a dungeon crawl that doesn't trigger traps, alert enemies, and can move through any door with a keyhole. If you have a wizard in the group already, great, they can prepare a different useful spell like Rary's.
Adding to #1) The bonus cantrips are great not just for booming blade & the like, but also because with Potent spellcasting (on them or others) you can do surprisingly good damage with your cantrips. Firebolt for 2d10+wis at lvl 8 is actually quite nice; acid splash, thunderclap, word of radiance can all do 2d6+wis to multiple enemies (putting it basically on board with 1st level spells). Also knowing arcana is always great, as its one of the higher end of useful skills in the game. 2) 100% agree with spellbreaker which wasn't even mentioned! This is one of the most powerful domain abilities in the class. Mass cure wounds, healing word, mass healing word, heal, etc. become INCREDIBLE spells when they all heal (already good!) + automatically dispel effects from your team! (No single target dispels to remove certain effects!) How did you guys overlook this? 3) Agree on arcane abjuration; I have no idea how fiends, elementals, fey, and (okay fine to celestials) were considered niche. Between those and undead (remember you're probably going to want to turn undead or abjure here; so the 2 CDs dont really compete direclty, which is nice) this ability is extremely useful. 4) Regarding the domain spells - first its useful to have things like detect magic and dispel magic on your list because they save you the memorization slot, a highly contested resource for your cleric, allowing you to memorize more situational things for your dungeon/adventure. ("We're at the yuanti-temple, so i'll memorize protection from poison since i have a free slot.") Arcane eye, leomunds chest, and teleportation circle are big deals if your party doesn't have a wizard (how many groups have a sorc, a non-tome-warlock, or no arcane ritual caster? you can really hit some of the big important rituals right here!) and I don't understand how you guys dismissed that. 5)The capstone is great, but I never worry about that stuff too much, and was not even on my list of reckoning; I'm not sure why you guys focused on that and every other ability here which is quite good! Now theorycrafting aside; I've seen a 10th level arcane cleric in action (and built one) which is why I know it's as good as it is. My recommendation to truly evaluate a subclass/kit for classes is at minimum, try to build a character for it (and look at it at a few level ranges like 3, 6, 10, etc) as if you were going to play it (note: trying to make it as effective as you would if you were going to play it in a long campaign) before trying to really assert how good you think it is. Sorry if this was a bit standoffish; I normally really like your content. This just hit a nerve for some reason.
@@parabostonian2267 I definitely agree with your comments expanding on the synergy between cantrips+potent spellcasting. Since Arcana Domain is SCAG, I just used BB and GFB as the leading examples since they're from the same sourcebook (and bc I think they're darn good). If one is playing a non-AL Arcana Cleric as a tank, Word of Radiance (from XGE)+potent spellcasting against a mob is fantastic, dealing 2d6+Wis radiant against any chosen creature within 5ft. I mostly play AL, so alas my character can't use this combo. Thank you for catching the Arcana skill proficiency, I was focused mostly on what was not addressed in the video, but agree the import is understated. As long as you have 10 in Int, the value of Arcana as a skill grows nicely with levels, and if one already has a Wizard in their party - great! - the Arcana cleric can assist them with an Arcana check to have them gain advantage with a higher modifier. I am also suspect of how they are judging the "value" of these cleric domains, as it seems like they may just be loading a character to 20 in dndbeyond and reading through all the class features listed, which explains why some synergistic qualities were missed... Also agree on the value of evaluating subclasses at entry/exit of each "tier" of play (based on AL), so evaluating at levels 1/4, 5/10, 11/16, 17+. Since most D&D play never gets near Tier 4, lvl 17+, comments on capstone abilities are much less valuable to casual players than comments on how a character plays at, say level 10 (which any cleric does very well!).
I don't mean to sound mean but I see this a lot with the Spell breaker ability. Spell breaker only works on ONE CREATURE AT A TIME. "Starting at 6th level, when you restore hit points to an ally with a spell of 1st level or higher, YOU CAN ALSO END ONE SPELL OF YOUR CHOICE ON THAT CREATURE. The level of the spell you end must be equal to or lower than the level of the spell slot you use to cast the healing spell." To me that reads you could end the spell effect on one member not everyone. It's not beneficial to use this on a AOE, like In the situation you set, it would be better to cast dispel magic at 5th level.
@@brittanyanderson97 I disagree. RAW the description does not specify one creature at a time, but *one spell at a time* affecting *a creature that is healed*. In other words, you can remove one effect on each ally that is healed. So if your party was hit by the Fear or Charm Person spells in a round, one could cast Mass Healing Word at 3rd level and choose which affect they would want to end on each ally that is healed by your spell. While both the identifiers are singular, only the spell effect is numerically limited in that turn. Also using the Life Cleric's Disciple of Life trait as a supporting example, "Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level." This feature only specifies "a creature" in the text per your original argument, yet is known to work on multiple allies affected by an AoE heal (likely to appeal to single target and AoE abilities). Edited: Synaptic Static was a bad example since its instantaneous, switched to Charm Person as non-concentration duration spell example.
@@Sigourney-Cleaver it does say a spell but ON THAT CREATURE (singular) not CREATURES (plural). I would say in the case of spell breaker that would be at the DM's discretion to decide if that applies or not. Technically for Disciple of Life it is the same wording wise, A/THAT creature. Which refers to ONE, the wording specifies A CREATURE NOT CREATURES. So even if you use an AOE heal the ability only applies to A (singular) creature. DM's just allow it to effect more members or you could make vlid argument. It's just a nice ability or they don't get hung up on the wording, which I don't see as a problem in this case. Another aspect is that you can achieve the desired effect without spell breaker by casting dispel magic where as you can't really add extra healing on top of healing spells. You'll probably say this is hypocritical statement (which in someways it is) but really it depends on how you and the DM interpret the wording. Sorry for sounding like a rules lawyer or that guy.
You guy's missed out on what makes death cleric a B tier. The fact that 6th lv. Subclass ability that negates resistance and immunity of your necrotic damage.
The mind control feature of the knowledge domain bumps it up to atleast a B imo; getting to bundle detect thoughts with a Suggestion spell (which automatically succeeds) is such a versatile skill
@@aldoushuxley5953 22 new subclasses, 5 reprinted ones. All new, as far as I know, all the new subclasses are from UA. There are some confirmed ones, and there aren't actually that many UA subclasses. Nerd Immersion made his predictions in a recent video.
With respect to the fact that you guys said right from the start that you left rp concerns out, one of the most fun clerics I’ve ever played was a knowledge cleric. It fits a rp heavy game super well. You get so many languages and features that make it fun for out of combat stuff
The Arcana Domain absolutely deserves to be higher on this list since it lets you craft one of the most powerful magic items in the game: Wand of Magic Missile. Walk around with a coat full of them, or even better, hand them out to your entire party (it is important to note that they don't require you to be a caster to use nor do they require attunement).
@@rednose2601 There are rules for crafting magic items in Xanathar's Guide. It mostly boils down to "spend a couple sessions getting the formula and/or materials as determined by the DM, then spend some time between sessions on the actual crafting."
To craft something like a wand you need to be able to cast the spell it uses (or have someone capable of doing so for you). So most clerics can't do that, but Arcana Clerics can since they have Magic Missile as part of their expanded spell list. That said, there are plenty of classes and subclasses with access to Magic Missile. Wizard, Sorcerer, Arcane Trickster Rogue, Eldritch Knight Fighter, Armorer Artificer, and anyone who takes Magic Initiate to pick it up could also craft such a wand, provided they have the proper tool proficiency.
I played a knowledge domain cleric in a Dragon Heist campaign which more focussed on exploration than combat - she was awesome in that setting - Augury was my friend. I like playing clerics whose speciality ISN'T healing and my drow was more of an Inflict Wounds than a Cure Wounds character. As a result, I'd rank this a B or an A, but do realise that many campaigns have a much greater focus on combat.
I think the reason why Death Domain is popular is you can do the standard combo of Cantrip/Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians and use Toll the Dead as the cantrip - giving you 2 targets, which will lead to a lot more damage at level 5+ than adding Wisdom to one cantrip damage.
Well the wisdom mod damage to cantrips are to *all* cleric cantrips, and while there aren't many cantrips that can target more than 1 creature, especially wizard or cleric cantrips, it could be useful in that scenario (maybe using metamagic adept and twinned spell to nuke two creatures with firebolt or acid splash, the list goes on).
The Life Domain "combat medic" is a blast to play, where healing AND protecting his/her charges comes before doing damage to someone else...it is a tactical game all in itself.
I think what they mean is that in a game where you can create your own character and have decisions in the influence of the story, you don't want to be tethered to just supporting your team. As in you don't have any agency, any impact in the story, your character is essentially a dispenser or a robot just for healing, a "healbot" and I ain't talking about a warforged. And even then that's an insulting to treat another player like that. You expect someone only to heal, that's their only purpose. You dismiss their story, what they want to do because "well the party needs a healer." If you enjoy being the medic, like I do, that's fine. But I hate spending hours creating my character, painting a miniature, investing time and emotion, only to be treated like an NPC who exists solely to keep reckless or selfish players alive.
@@TheDancerMacabre I have fun in the role play of a kindly older priest who exist to serve and help those who come by him. He has dedicated his life to others and asks only for donations to help preserve his church. Makes it fun when he sees a situation go south and decides to go nova and nuke an enemy from orbit. Or the visuals of the kindly healer welding a mace and bashing a monsters skull in because they hurt his party. But yeah, it's really important to talk to your play group and set the expectation of how your going to play your life cleric.
With the right guys, it can be good. But it has a lot of baggage exactly from video games where the specialization is extremely high. In MMORPGs 20 people each wear exactly one of 3 hats. In dungeons and dragons every character can wear 3 or 4 hats and should at least wear 2.
When they got to the Cleric, I knew it was take the Dudes a hot minute to talk about every. Single. Subclass. :) Edit: Also, I just want to say that the Twilight Domain is by far one of my favorite subclasses. The channel divinity aura is so handy for giving your teammates that extra cushion in combat to help them stay in the fight.
I hate the Twilight Domain so much. It's such an emo domain and every player I've ever known who's tried it has played their Twilight cleric like a friggin' rogue and I hate it.
@@Scorpious187 my wife played a Twilight domain cleric as a chipper little halfling. :) She made it a lot of fun. But I can see how people would fall into the trap of "emo cleric". But falling into tropes and assumptions is a danger in pretty much every class and sub-class.
Also; while the knowledge domain's capstone may be somewhat situational..the spell list is not! half the spells or more are not on the cleric spell list for starters. suggestion, identify and arcane eye are always useful spells to have and this cleric can really be a lore bard in the sense of the expertises it gets to knowledge checks coupled with 1 of its channel divinity options, meaning it can function as a lock picker if no one in the party is proficient with that. B tier ranking surely guys
Grave clerics should really be ranked higher than forge in my mind because time and time again the abilities of the grave will save and impact the party in combat. I don't think that the forge will have that much impact for the party, it'll impact more the PC. As a party member, I would rather have a grave cleric with me than a forge.
The problem with the party-friendly features of the grave domain is that they are only good when things are going horribly wrong. Sure, the spare the dying buffs are great, but if you're using them instead of healing word, things are not going well for the party. The forge domain just by being good on his own will prevent things from getting to this point.
Katherine Minor If you have the choice between a player: casting heat metal and a player: that can cancel Nat 20’s You are going it want the guy that can cancel nat 20’s
@@TVMAN1997 Eeehhhh.... Nat 20's don't happen as frequently as people think. It IS nice to be able to negate nat 20's but unless you're rolling with a party that constantly gives advantage on everything all the time forever, it's not entirely prevalent. In 15 years I can't really say I've ever seen more than 4 or 5 nat 20's in a single session. Also if Nat 20's were guaranteed to happen only in combat thag would be more useful, but a player/NPC is just as likely to Nat 20 on a skill as they are on a critical save or attack.
Regarding death domain: “even when amplified you’re just matching other options.” At level 7, i’m dishing out like 40+ damage with an inflict wounds+channel divinity which recharges on a short rest. Guiding bolt isn’t doing that anytime soon. Yall being way to hard on Death Domain. B tier at least.
Agreed, plus one of their big knocks against it is that necrotic damage is a lower tier of damage... But this is addressed with the 6th level ability that negates most necrotic resistance.
Playing one at lvl 14 and I'm out damaging the paladin 2 times per short rest, you really gotta lean into it for it to be good, I took heavy armor and a polearm, you can stay on the front for a long time dishing out a ton of damage while still having all of your resources to heal your party.
While I agree that the Death Domain got a bit of an identity crisis, I would still give it a B. You do get to eventually ignore necrotic resistance, and your Channel Divinity can be used with any melee attack, spell and weapon, which means you can use it through your Spiritual Weapon, and also Vampiric Touch which will actually boost the healing you get from it too. Also, "death magic" and "necromancy" are 2 words for the same thing. You even refferd to the Death Cleric as "a more blasty necromancer" in your video about playing a necromancer. Clerics also have Speak With Dead, which historically is actually what necromancy was all about.
One thing I was surprised you didn't touch on for Life Domain, was their Channel Divinity. My last campaign ran up to level 16, and I buffed the monsters out the wazoo such that death was always around the corner, and having a Life Domain Cleric that could drop 80 hp of healing on the party, twice per short rest, was quite a big deal....
Totally agree I usually play life domain cleric and it's funny how all my party can be on the ground and in just one turn I can use Channel divinity and healing word and suddenly everyone is up again with half the HP
Knowledge Domain is great for certain party comps. Parties without a wizard or bard will really appreciate another character being able to pick up those out of combat skills.
I play a life domain and his background is a military medic. Your comment of triage was perfect for me. I use his bane/bless with spiritual weapon but if a friend needs help, I'm there for the big boost.
Heyy perfect video at the perfect time. I was just thinking about prepping a cleric in case my dragonborn lockadin dies, but there are just so many interesting sounding subclasses to choose from!
I in fact loved playing a life cleric by the way, it may not be a super diverse subclass with a bunch of cool toys, but it's reliable, useful for keeping the other players alive, and can still be super fun with a lot of creative ways to roleplay
Death Domain is great, I've been playing this subclass for two years and I think people who don't like it just never played the class? It works as a Melee necrotic class for big nuke damage with his channel divinity. A nuke damage that you can convine with Inflict Wounds a level 1 necrotic cleric Spell that later on you can cast it at 4 or 5 level for big meme damage. I was extatic when I got a critical 20 with an inflict wounds casted at level 4 plus the Channel Divinity that at lvl 8 added a + 21 to the damage pull. It felt amazing, we are talking of more than 100 damage on a turn. They take care about monsters in midgame being resistant to necrotic by giving you the passive hability to skip resistance, so unless the monster in question is inmune you will be more than ok. The "not good with the undead" sentence is just not true? You STILL have turn (and destroy) undead, wich is the best way to fight hordes of undead monsters as a Cleric. Cloud kill has saved my party over and over with ambushing crouds, it's a super cool spell and has a really nice flavor for a Cleric that worships a God of Death. Also you can still suport your party super well, if they need healing you can cast healing word, or mass healing word as bonus action while hitting big with your charged up necrotic weapon in the front line (or if your DM is cool with it you can have the spell driver feat to keep casting big nuke inflict wounds and healing word on the same turn). I wouldn't call it an S tier I undertand that are classes much more "optimal" but the majority of people who say is an A say it for a reson. It has a nice flavour, you can be a cleric that loves inflicting death with his own hands to his enemies, sending their souls as presents to an evil God, or a Cleric that is unafraid to fight in the frontline with the paladin because death is just another journey and he preffers to face it face to face. It might not be optimal but I think is WAY more fun than life Domain :)
I'm playing an 8th level Knowledge Domain Cleric right now and all I can say is that this subclass does WAY more in game than what it says on the book - specially if you have a DM that doesn't only throw demons at your face, that is, a decent DM. I'll admit it's niche and you have to commit to intelligence if you want to make the most of the flavour of it - as in an actual KNOWLEDGE domain cleric.... But being able to read thoughts, foresee the danger, and then use suggestion twice to make the heavy armored captain leader NOT ONLY drop all his equipment at our feet, BUT ALSO run after two cyclops (and most definitly kill themselves) instead of fighting our group was one hell of a victory. Also, you'll be able to foresee all of the BBEG's plan beforehand and prepare accordingly. I would give it a solid B
I choose Life Domain because of how it frees up my spell list for other spells that are more situational. I play more triage and do more buffing in order to minimize the need for healing spells, but because of Life Domain, I have those spells on hand in an emergency, and they will be cast to greater effect because of the boost it gives healing magic.
You see, the death domain was critizised for having domain spells that were already on the cleric spell list, whereas the life domain was praised for the very same fact. The only difference is that in the life domain side of things, you are choosing non-"healing" spells whereas the death domain has to choose the healing spells. the equation is the same and in either case it proves that "domain" spell lists are bloody amazing for the massive amount of extra spells you end up with.
I think something you missed when you talked about the arcana cleric is the two wizard cantrips they get. One of the bigger weaknesses of the Cleric class is that their spell list does not include a single attack roll cantrip, which i've found to be a surprising dissadvantage when playing as one. But with an arcana cleric, you can take something like fireball, and perhaps even a melee oriented attack cantrip, freeing up your reliance on a melee weapon. Potent spellcasting is also pretty useful, even if it is a later ability. Spell breaker is also a potentially amazing ability due to it not relying on any sort of roll, and happening as part of you already doing something helpful to your team. In some ways it is like a free dispel magic on top of a healing spell.
Currently in my first campaign. I'm using a Variant Human Forge Cleric, and I'm loving it. Recommended to get the Skilled feat, when able. It helps with the crafting side of this domain if you use it to gain proficiency with multiple different tool kits. One thing to note: Creating trinkets is done with Channel Divinity Artisan's Blessing. Blessing of the Forge gives you a +1 to either AC for armor or Attack/Damage rolls for weapons.
Played a knowledge domain cleric/gunslinger and it was awesome. Its abilites and spells really add to what clerics do and I think its a solid b. But I love being useful outside of combat. The expertise was great and came up all the time
Well, this sold me on the Life and Grave Domain clerics, for sure! I'm running a Light Domain cleric right now, so can't wait to see what features I've overlooked in the next video. Thanks for the content!
Being a newer player, I've only had experience at the table with Death, Forge, Life, Light, Nature domains (whether it be other players or me playing it) * Death.. is a mixed bag, twinning Necrotic spells is kinda neat but haven't really great time with it, everyone loves the idea of *not* being the stereotype of their class * Forge is solid, heavily resistant to attacks (especially fire) and the features along with the spell list make for a fun experience - haven't played before but reading their abilities does get me excited to create one * Life isn't just a heal bot, they actually get access to Heavy Armor and Divine Strike - which does allow them to take some punishment and hit with those weapon strikes as needed * Light is a fine subclass, Fireball always makes for a fun experience for players - let's you basically be an offensive spellcaster while still having the advantages of being a Cleric (can kinda compare this to the Divine Soul Sorcerer) * Nature isn't my personal choice, someone played it at our table - didn't feel like they did a whole lot, kinda just felt like they didn't even have a subclass at times
Been playing an RP-heavy campaign with friends, I took Eldritch Knight Fighter with Knowledge Domain Cleric. Knowledge Domain has been critical as hell the entire time. Spontaneous proficiency in a skill has gotten us more information; Augury has given us good direction; double proficiency in select knowledge skills is always awesome. I'm not sure it's useful to rank it a 'C' when it's very clearly designed for RP-heavy campaigns as opposed to bare-minimum modules where the only thing that matters is DPS.
Got D&D essentials for my birthday in February with the intention of learning and playing with my 9 year old along with a couple of friends. Bloody lockdown spoiled that, didn't want to learn from scratch over a laptop! Have read and read the guides and watched a ton of your videos and think I'm nearly ready to DM my daughters cleric into the dungeon.
I feel like the sorcerer might desperately need some new subclasses. I really want to like storm sorcerer because the concept is cool but too many of its abilities force you to be close and if they don't, the lightning spells do. Sorcerer should certainly get some charm based subclass to play on their charisma.
Dungeon Dudes: “this is our opinion, now let’s see how the community is wrong”. JK !! I think a lot of people really like the flavor of a sub-class and are willing to overlook some of its weaker elements. I love the flavor of a Death Domain Cleric and so in my mind it is going to be awesome.
We fully agree. Cleric was really hard because most people who pick a domain pick it because it suits their vision, so really, we just tried to stack them against each other, but they are all super good choices and fun to play.
I think that's because Cleric's are one of the stronger classes in 5e, so even a sub-optimal domain is still going to wreak shit. That being said, as cool as I think the Death domain is, I agree that it's torn a bit to much between wanting to be a Necromancer that uses WIS instead of INT and wanting to be a Death Knight-ish build. It's not bad, but it's seems to me that the class was thrown into the DMG as an example without much thought to balance.
I totally agree on the Life Domain Cleric being S tier. Not because it's powerful (although it is) but because it fits the DM's expectations so well... and because its spell list really does allow you to customize your chosen spells for the day to suit whatever your situation and playstyle suggests. Sometimes it's nice just being the cleric's cleric... and doing the job really, really well.
I'm genuinely astounded by how mixed the cleric subclasses are. I guess that just sort of comes with there being so many of them. That said, I super agree with Forge and Life being top-tier and Grave is definitely a lot better than the Death in general. I've had first-hand experience with all of them at my table and that's just how it panned out.
Life domain was actually my favorite character I've ever played (party of six). I was super tanky but I agree, healing isn't optimal but you put on spirit guardians and spiritual weapon up and dive right in the middle. You provide heals afterwards to the party and also healing yourself on top of it. I feel the life domain is the tankiest form of cleric from level six and on and can become a focal defensive bastion for a large party.
Once during a fight with a green dragon all my party was going to die and as a cleric I had to sacrifice myself so I told them to run away and I would stay fighting with him. I used the combo that you say I was very lucky with the rolls and although the dragon had more than half of life in 5 turns I won the fight. I know it was pure luck literally for 5 turns I hit all my attacks I dodged his breath weapon (which I was resistant to because I was a dwarf) and in general I had a lot of luck with the rolls and the dragon very little.
My group's (I'm the DM) cleric is playing life domain. He's a big time DBZ fan, and honestly spends most of his turns yelling like Goku and firing out blasts of radiant damage. That said, I think his 'triage' skills as you describe are quite good. He typically asks if anyone is in desperate need, and if not, proceeds to beat up a lot of monsters. My campaign features a lot of undead, so his abilities are particularly useful, especially against some of the unending horde situations I've put them in. That said, the life cleric's healing abilities are pretty nuts. In a recent boss fight, the boss had managed to get his character pretty low while simultaneously knocking out the group's rogue and artificer. He timed a mass healing word extremely well. Just when it looked like things were getting deadly, he got everyone back up while simultaneously healing himself back to nearly full HP. I agree with a lot of the other comments here (and Kelly) that a well played life cleric will use their healing tactically and use the freedom from the class list to be a versatile combatant.
Kind of surprised you'd go with a C for Arcana cleric. Getting two wizard cantrips at first level is really useful. It even makes for a great dip option for a wizard looking to gain some armor proficiency in fact (if you take wizard options that don't use DC). The Arcana proficiency is also really nice. Also, while Guiding Bolt is generally a better spell to use, even just having Magic Missile as an option is pretty sweet because it is guaranteed damage.
Well for these rankings they take a look at it from just being purely that class with no dips so while some like death and arcana might be good dips as a class themselves they aren't as great as some others not bad but just not great
I played a Life cleric in a campaign that went from 10-20. I took magic initiate: Wizard for booming blade. Paired with Divine Strike and the vast array of spells that do damage over multiple turns, my DM started referring to my character as the caster paladin, and even gave me a homebrew Holy Avenger. Life domain is so much cooler than a healbot.
Clearly this is anecdotal, but my all-time favorite character is a Knowledge Domain Cleric. Solid domain spell list. Cool domain powers. Also Potent Spell casting is far superior to Divine Strike, so every Cleric subclass with that feature should automatically get a boost in the tier ranking over those without it.
I'm actually really glad to see both the DD and the community ratings for the Life Cleric being so high. I so often hear them refered to as heal bots, but I LOVE playing my Life Cleric. My essential spells are prepped so I can be more versatile in my daily spell choices, AND my ability to heal more when I need to lets me use my other turns for fun damage or control spells. I adore playing her and I just want people to know how fun they can be 🥰 Also looking forward to trying out a new Grave Cleric in the new AL season coming up!
Arcana domain Arcane initiate- arcana skill proficiency and a choice of 2 bonus cantrips from the wizard spell list. This gives the option for to choose cantrips that actually use attack rolls, or utility. The attack roll cantrips eventually get boosted with potent cantrip. Greenflame blade scales quite a bit as the wisdom gets added to both targets, and can be used with shillelagh to deal quite a bit of damage with relatively low resource investment. Arcana proficiency can at least be used to make spell scrolls which involves no roll, just time/money/proficiency/and spell access. channel divinity: arcane abjuration- is definitely quite limited since it affects only one creature, but it does have some value as it improves upon the ability to “turn” other creature types. It may also be a decent option at lower levels with the low amount of spell slots available. Spell breaker- quite a bit more powerful than at first glance. The dispel feature isn’t limited by number of creatures. If you use a spell like mass healing word, you can end a spell on each individual creature. This feature is not limited to cleric spells, so goodberry could go quite far for ending alot of spells against different targets. Healing spirit can do so a few times in combat if your willing to druid dip. its also not limited to one dispel per casting. A lingering spell that heals like regenerate would potentially dispel a spell every time the creature starts its turn and heals 1 hitpoint. Arcane Mastery- ridiculous, but you guys talked about that.
2 cantrips is cool but not worth a domain, there's plenty of feats that do the same. Arcane abjuration is limited to only 4 enemy types and the banish is worded to only work if they are not native to your plane. Spellbreaker requires a campaign with a plentiful supply of enemy spellcasters that have debuffs otherwise completely not worth counting over other domains. Not to mention abilities are not spells, so inherent ability users are immune to this feature as well.
Another reason life domain is extremely powerful is because of goodberry. By picking up the magic initiate feat you can cast the 1st level druid spell "Goodberry" once per day. You can now cash in a spell slot before each long rest for 10 goodberries which heal 4hp each (40 healing per spell slot) thanks to the life domain's 1st level perk "Disciple of Life". These remain for 24 hours so they can be used the following adventuring day. This is equivalent to magically producing 5 healing potions every day.
My Hill Dwarf Life Cleric that I rolled all abysmal stats for except for a single 18, dump it in Con + take the tough feat at level 4 + wear heavy armor = have a 20 con score at lvl 1, gain 13 hp/lvl, have an AC of 18
There were some Cleric subclasses that were released in a kind of collaboration between D&D and Magic the Gathering. It was a series of open access documents called Plane Shift. One of them added 4 subclasses that were mostly remixes of some of the classes in the Player's Handbook. Not to add more to your workload, 12 is already a lot, but maybe, you can go over these subclasses in a future video. I think there was a sorcerer subclass as well. In any case, thanks for the high quality content.
Love you guys. Although, I disagree about the capstone feature of the Arcana cleric. I can honestly make due without it. While high level spells are cool and stuff, honestly I don't see the big issue about them. Frankly, the cleric spell list caps out after 6 as does most spell caster spells. 7 and onward aren't as beefy as one would like them to be. (IMO of course)
That's why they didn't weigh it much into the decisions, it seemed like it was a "oh and their capstone is good or bad" rather than the rating being affected by it. Without its capstone, arcana is very niche in application the only good thing it gets is 2 cantrips.
My favorite character that I have played so far is my Tiefling Forge Cleric (not optimal, cause he already has fire resistance, but whatever), Regna Stonemelder. He was adopted by Dwarves and worshipped Moradin. His build was all about deciding whether he would be the frontline tank, or making someone else the tank while he supported from the backlines. I used his Channel Divinity to create the platinum rings required for Warding Bond, leading to the strategy that he and the Rogue love to implement. Through a combination of Blessing of the Forge, Shield of Faith, and Warding Bond, we turned the rogue into a tank by giving him +4 AC and resistance to all damage, while Regna stayed 50 ft back firing Guiding Bolt at whoever the rogue was engaged with, providing advantage and thus sneak attack. Also, he's a cinnamon roll who's terrible with money. I love that little guy.
I think when looking at these subclasses one of the most important things to consider besides the abilities, their overall usefulness, and time is juxtaposing it to what is typically happening when you get these features. You get them at 1st, 2nd, 6th, 8th, and 17th. The reason these first and second level abilities get such respect is twofold. First level characters tend to be somewhat generic. Having these features early helps you lock in to your identity more quickly. Additionally, it's what makes the Cleric, Sorcerer, and Warlock such strong multiclass options, allowing the player character to often get a massive boost of strength and utility in times when their main class features enter a lull. At 6th level the elephant in the room is level 5. This marks 3rd level spells and extra attacks entering play, usually accompanied by a massive increase in difficulty. In effect, if you are aware if what kind of campaign you'll be playing in, 6th level features among all classes function as a way for the player to predict ahead and counterplay the kind of threats they are expecting to face. To use an example in this video, a Grave Cleric is a fantastic defense against the undead. If you are aware that a campaign will have hoards of enemies, as undead often impliment, the chances of a PC getting hit with a critical goes up immensely. So negating crits becomes something that simultaneously makes them a better specialist AND generalist, which is not often seen. At 8th level we get an ASI which can be spent on a feat or ability to further supplement the offensive abilities added here. Getting bonuses to Str, Dex, or the Martial Adept, Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master feats adds impact to the classes which offer a bonus to melee damage. While investing in Wis or even getting Magic Initiate FOR Cleric on top of being one gives you more options and power. Apart from the 8th level ability's boost we sometimes see at 14th level, the next option is at 17th. In addition to being so far in the game that most won't use it, this is also at the time that we gain access to 9th level spells and the difficulty of our antagonists reaches their peak. Therefore while a strong ability is somewhat cheapened by it appearing so late in the game, a lackluster ability is made even worse. The Knowledge domain 17th level ability for example has fantastic roleplay potential and out of combat utility. However considering that this is also when you'll be facing enemies like Demon Lords and the mysteries the ability might solve are largely resolved, it becomes disappointing and a bit of a waste. For these reasons I'd argue again that when looking at these abilities and when we get them, we must also strongly consider what else will be happening in the campaign, with the other PCs and our enemies when speaking for or against these. Some people look at these abilities at face value and simply use a slider of when they come online to indicate importance, to which I say it is far more nuanced.
I just like the theming of the knowledge cleric-it really plays into the 'clinical' aspect of a class that's dedicated partially to healing and I love playing sage-type, knowledge seeking characters. Also Int checks are pretty useful and I myself use them a lot as a DM but that might not go for everyone. The clincher here is Suggestion. Not only do you get such a good spell as Suggestion without having to leave anything off the table, at level 6 you can-in a roundabout way-cast it once per short rest without a spell slot.
Monty your comment during the Grave Domain section, that Kelly’s character negated crits for his allies, how it felt like he was messing with you as the DM, and your appreciation of Kelly’s role playing...all of this is a testament to your wise perspicacity as a DM.
Life Domain's channel divinity option (which recharges on a short rest) heals people with a pool of HP equal to 5X cleric LV like a paladin. Honestly using this might be better than wasting spells on healing (at least for conserving spell slots). You can also use it before taking a short rest because you'll get the channel divinities back after the rest.
Indeed; their take on Life -Cleric is just plane meh. The single-best thing about them is their Channel Divinity. Second is the Heavy Armor Proficiency. Third is their spell list is good BECAUSE you always want them so it's, hands down, the most flexible of all domain lists. Fourth: healing word is the best heal to use in a fight and only the life-cleric can use it well. Essentially; a good life cleric is your front-line fighter AND your support/healer spell user. He get's even better with a fellow front-liner to support him.
@@bitharne Maybe not fighter, but front-line medic definitely. Maybe fighter if they have high strength, or use something like Shileileigh. But yeah, hands down best healer.
Came here to confirm how awesome it feels to cancel these crits. Grave Domain is my personal favorite! You guys got a pretty good grasp of the different subclass aspects, props to you for the monster task!
Yeah, we have Life Domain Cleric in our Monday's campaign and we absolutely need her. For most players this was our first time playing, so some builds are not balanced the best. We have a BM Ranger, an Ancestral Guardians Barb, said Life Domain Cleric and I myself play a Draconic Sorc. Sometimes we also have a Feylock. Between things like me not knowing how important Dex is when I made my character (leading to an AC of 13... but +3 Con on the other hand), our DM rolling pretty well most of the time... we need our cleric. But her player makes sure that she has plenty of character outside of keeping us alive.
Yeah, Life Domain really shines when you're playing with players that are either new to the game or unfamiliar with each other. It's a security blanket not only for the DM that hopes to heap punishment on players, but for the players who want to live long enough to learn from their mistakes.
I have a suggestion for a video you guys could do! It's a bit of a deviation from the normal, but I think it would be really fun. Ranking homebrew things! I would recommend subclasses, as there's the most of them out there. D&D Wiki has a large selection of them that are fun to read through, as does D&D beyond. You could rank them based on how powerful they are compared to normal subclasses of that class, then decide if they are too broken to be put in games or if they are balanced enough that it's not a huge deal if they are implemented in games. You could do one or two subclasses per class, broken up amongst two or three videos! I would recommend the Demolitionist Variant subclass from the D&D Wiki, as I personally think it is pretty balanced, or at least not too broken. Just something to think about! I just think this is a cool video idea that you could do. I know that I would watch it, and probably lots of other people! You guys are awesome, and though I don't always agree with your opinions, I respect your work. Thank you so much for everything you do!
Oh, and if the community has any homebrew class or subclass recommendations for me, please send them! I love looking over homebrew stuff, even if they would NEVER be allowed in a normal game! Please send links to homebrew content for me!
Played a knowledge domain cleric, the ability to use a channel divinity to gain a skill or tool proficiency was really useful and the read thoughts channel divinity is just amazing.
I'm playing Curse of Strahd for my first D&D campaign, I'm playing a Beast Master Ranger and I'm multicassing into Life Domain Cleric. Let me tell ya, there is no such thing as overkill healing in Barovia.
Death cleric would be rated S if that was the case. Reaper ability from the first level pretty much doubles their cantrip damage for the whole game and they can ignore necrotic resistance.
Explain me to me when you’re using spells and class features outside of combat? Sure there are spells like identify or detect magic, but the most common dnd event is preparing for combat, avoiding combat, healing from combat, or combat. Investigative abilities are importantly but there aren’t a lot of scenarios out there where combat is the last thing you’re thinking about, unless you’re playing something niche.
One of my favorite ways to revamp the knowledge domain cleric is to homebrew it and allow them to use intelligence for spellcasting. It's also powerful for a skill monkey multiclass. Without either of those caveats, though, C tier feels about right. Good work guys!
The Death Cleric is better than given credit for here The Domain spells include Ray of Sickness, which is one of the better low-level debuffs as Poisoned is a really nasty condition If the enemy creature is likely to have advantage or immunity to this condition, Ray of Enfeeblement is also a good low-level debuff, for nerfing a single strength-based combatant Blindness/Deafness is also good but on the cleric spell list already It's true that all these spells use Con saves (RoE is ranged attack but saves are made afterwards) but the debuff is typically worth it As for fighting undead, the 6th-level ability is to ignore necrotic resistance. Plus you'll probably take Chill Touch as your bonus cantrip anyway The lack of heavy armour isn't a problem since scale mail with 14 Dex is just as good as Chainmail. Half-Plate is nearly as good as Plate and equals it if you get Medium Armour Master with 16 Dex. Now the subclass does encourage a melee playstyle with the CD and 8th-level damage addition, which should detract from the debuffing mentioned, but the CD is for all melee attack including Vampiric Touch (auto-prepared) and Spiritual Weapon, which are melee spell attacks. The 8th-level bonus does encourage getting good with a shortsword or longbow since it is weapon attacks but given that you have undead to Help or to flank, 14 Dex isn't a big issue I personally think this subclass should be B-tier since whilst I'm still not sold on the weapon aspect, this isn't a problem for the first 7 levels, where the Death Domain works as a surprisingly good debuffer.
My problem with the Death cleric (just got out of a campaign where I played it to level 11) is that it doesn't seem to know whether it wants to be a melee or ranged attacker. You get this cool ability to target two people (within 5 feet of each other) with your cantrips Chill Touch and Toll the Dead, but you don't get potent spell casting to add your wisdom mod to your cantrips. You get a channel divinity that adds a ton of necrotic damage to a melee attack and divine strike with adds necrotic damage to your melee attacks as well, but you don't get proficiency in heavy armor. And it's cool that your necrotic damage ignores resistance seeing as it's the majority of your damage, but that never really came up for our campaign because we didn't fight a bunch of undead. It was really fun to play and to RP my gollum-like death cleric that just wanted people to like him, but the class felt a bit divided in how it wanted to approach combat. I think either giving it potent spellcasting (and increasing reaper's range to 10 ft), or giving it heavy armor proficiency would go a long way to defining how the class wants to play.
Death domain can be pretty wicked on the damage side of things. The combination of Inflict Wounds and the channel divinity is kinda gross, especially if you upcast the spell. The chance to double up on Toll the Dead also keeps you pretty relevant on round to round damage, and you can almost always find two baddies standing next to each other. The spell list could use some work, yes, and I'd also rather have better cantrips and not divine strike, but you take what you get.
@@vincentbartels1111 I think the class should have got potent spellcasting too. The subclass is still a little muddled on Dex or Wis. I tend to give my cleric shields so I don't really use strength-based weapon and don't usually bother with heavy armour since rapier=longsword with S&B. I'll defend the CD since it still works with spiritual weapon but the Divine Strike bothers me too since, even though you can be an archer to stay ranged, unless you get a crossbow to use wisdom somehow, you may get a little MAD That said, I still give it a B and I'm glad that you had a good time with it too
They literally said it would be a problem fighting undead with resistance to necrotic damage.......completely forgetting that said resistance gets nullified once you hit level 6.....not much to do about some of it's poison damage spells though, but it is what it is since that's the worst damage type in the game anyways. I've been playing a DDC for 2-3 months now in a campaign, currently at level 3. I think they are somewhat correct in the idea of spells, bc it feels like the only necromancy spell I ever toss out is false life-the cantrip perk is situational, but I've used it twice so far. As Vincent said, it does feel like it's mixed in combat-do I use spells, or do I attack with my weapon? When casting spells, do I buff/debuff, do I heal, or do I just do spell damage? I've had a blast playing it, def a B tier class so far imo
Life Domain is S. Period. The fact that you get bonuses to healing means that you can go longer without hitting the panic button. Or simply require less effort to bring an ally back from the brink. It frees you up to cast damaging or support spells.
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Part 2 of this video will air on September 8th!
We heard lots of constructive feedback on the Barbarian and Bard subclass videos about how we responded to the community poll results alongside our own rankings. We hope that this video demonstrates a more balanced and fair presentation when our opinions differed from those of the community poll. We think it’s important to show our thoughts alongside a diversity of opinions and experience in a respectful and constructive manner, even when we disagree or are being critical. Thank you for your feedback, and we hope you’ll continue to enjoy the rest of this series!
I've been loving this subclass series. I'm not really good at evaluating what Makes a Subclass Good, but seeing things getting broken down mechanically is really neat to see.
This might not be the best place to put this, but I have been in the process of writing a homebrew class (hopefully for eventual publication), and I was wondering if any of the Dungeon Dudes cast or crew would be interested in having a preliminary look at it. I call it the Dragon Champion, and it's based on the idea of a player that has either chosen to serve a dragon of Chromatic, Metallic or Shadow nature, or has been bullied or dominated to do that dragon's bidding. It is a bit of a hefty read, so I understand if none of you are interested, but if anyone of you are, I'd be happy to email you a copy. Thanks for your time, and I'm loving the class rating videos!
@@natashasurvivallady8021 sounds like it should just be a warlock with a dragon as a patron.
It's cool, we're here fo your opinions. It's a nice feature that you compare them with the polls, but most of us wouldn't expect you to change the rankings based on them.
Where can I go to awnser the community poll?
4:43 Arcana Domain: C/C
8:41 Death Domain : C/C
14:18 Forge Domain : S/A
18:46 Grave Domain : A/A
23:20 Knowledge Domain:C/C
27:05 Life Domain : A/S
Dude spoilers!
@@FlyingNova223 .....?
I am confusion.
@@Riflery Naw, appreciate it man! Thanks for writing it out
@@Riflery You spoiled the rankings, man!
@@FlyingNova223 just don't read the comment
Forge Clerics are by far that subclass you think sounds stupid till you play it and realize how ungodly powerful it is
I took a one level dip into forge cleric as eldritch knight and it singlehandedly boosted my usefulness by a substantial amount.
And Eldritch knight is already pretty decent.
I'm playing one right now. Im lvl 3... why do you think we are so powerful? Im curious about your play style...Any tips?
@@DaRealGoosebumps You have access to very powerful abilities such as making a +1 weapon or armor at level 1 which is really nice, giving you alot of bulk combined with access to healing spells. You also become completely immune to fire damage at later levels which you can combine with a number of cool spells like heat metal making it do you can just grab and hold onto enemies dealing damage to them while you have your spirtual weapon beat the tar out of them also. for play style there's a couple of ways to do it, you can either make yourself a battle healer who is very hard to bring down or make yourself a front line fighter. Lastly you can make weapons and armor using random bits of metal (which incudes coins your carrying) and at later levels animate them to either do tasks (like checking rooms for traps) or simply protecting people by providing cover
Agreed; I'm playing one for a Greek mythology inspired campaign (Bronze Dragonborn), and despite rolling less than optimal stats (had a 14 in Wisdom to start), the DM is constantly frustrated by his inability to hit me for more than a few points of damage at a time, thanks to starting with +1 armor. Plus with Spiritual Weapon, Dragonborn lightning breath, and my presence on the front lines, I have tanked boss fights while the Bard and Fates-bound Warlock dealt with secondary objectives, effectively preventing the party from being overrun.
@goosebumps I had a player in Curse of Strahd play one. The campaign as written makes acquiring armor above chain mail for more than 1 person nearly impossible and almost no magic items exist.
Our forge cleric at lvl7 uses fabricate to give everyone in the party Full Plate raising their own AC to 22 (18+2 shield+1 forge magic ability +1 Forge cleric wearing heavy armor) and waded into battle maintaining Spirit Guardians. With resist fire not even fire ball made a dent on his character.
Edit: Normally fabricate does not allow you to make Armor and other finely constructed items UNLESS you have smithing tools and proficiency in it. Which Forge Cleric has....and the spell is instantaneous so it didnt even take weeks or anything to craft the party stuff....
If Light Domain isn't S tier, I'm gonna * Fireball joke *
You'll have to *delay* that fireball
@@DuBMaNiaK I'm readying the action until the next video lol
Seriously, my favorite cleric was a light cleric hill dwarf who took the heavy armor feat. Tons of HP, AC, and fireballs. A great feeling.
I kinda really wanna play an aaracokra light cleric. Get my Phoenix on.
@@villainvoice5143 Death from above! I dig it.
I see your Dwarven Forge Cleric and I raise you a Warforged Forge Cleric.
Ayy I’m currently warforged gunslinger/forge cleric
You get a 20 ac right off the bat!
I see your Warforged Forge Cleric and raise you a Dwarvenforged Forge Cleric (Dwarf-made Warforged modeled after Dwarves, including facial hair)
^ Sounds like a Dwemer weapon!
I have a Forge Cleric Warforged named Furnace. He is the product of warforged corpse, a group of college aged artisan guild students late on a project, and divine intervention from a god of the forge.
I just finished a campaign playing as a Death Domain Cleric, so I gotta defend the name. The sixth level ability ignores necrotic resistance, so that criticism doesn't really hold much water since most enemies that do resist necrotic damage tend to be mid-high level threats. Also, if you are willing to dip two level into Necromancy Wizard the sub-class really shines. Getting access to Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade (my pick for flavor reasons) really boosts your power output from your cantrips working really well with the Divine Strike feature. This option is available for a lot of sub-classes of course, but the real winner for this particular combo is Grim Harvest at lvl 2. Vampiric Touch works very well with both Grim Harvest and Touch of Death, keeping you well healed as you murder your enemies.
The Death Domain Cleric is not meant to be played like a typical necromancer, but some skeletal archers to chip in damage here and there never hurts. The Death Domain Cleric is a close range nuker with big damage melee spells. (Also I did pick variant human so I could start with Heavy Armor prof, so there's also that).
Edit: Also my campaign stopped at level 15, so the 17th level ability doesn't play into my experience with the class.
Love this domain played a tortle death cleric in decent into avernus and it was great going into melee with my Greataxe and spiritual guardians
I think you meant Necromancy Wizard btw :p
I think the main thing they are forgetting with the death domain is that you can set up with spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians and then you can attack with your melee weapon which is enhanced by the subclass at 8th level and you can of course add necrotic damage with channel divinity. I do agree the DD's are underestimating death domain.
They are versatile midfielders. I played mine with a glaive and warcaster to not need the heavier armor. I then could build up an undead shield wall within an antilife shell and still do what was needed.
@@AbyssArray Oops, you're right.
Arcana clerics get a reasonably strong ability at first level: Arcane Initiate.
Two wizard cantrips, likely fire bolt and another damage dealer or mage hand, go a long way toward keeping the cleric useful from the very beginning. Dispel magic is indispensable and scales through all levels of play. Proficiency in the Arcana skill is also quite nice, even if the cleric doesn't have the intelligence to back it up. Potent Spellcasting was also glossed over completely. An 8th level Arcana cleric will likely have a 20 Wisdom and therefore gets +5 to their damage output. That's not insignificant for a caster who will be also using Spiritual Weapon if at range.
Take swordcoast cantrips. If you're not getting extra attacks, booming blade is the boom.
Potent spellcasting only works on cantrips, though. Doesn't help you with spiritual weapon. Still not bad, though.
Arcane initiate is useful, I agree. Extra cantrips are always nice.The rest of the features just aren't amazing until 17th level.
As for dispel magic, clerics already have it on their spell list. And I don't think it's one of those spells you necessarily need to have prepared 24/7, which makes it not the best for your subclass spell list.
They didn't mention potent spellcaster because every cleric gets it, or its melee attack equivalent.
Yes, they will *also* be using Spiritual Weapon, so a strong ranged one-two punch. Wizard damage cantrips are second only to Eldritch Blast for damage.
Dispel Magic is an essential spell slot that is freed up for other things. It is most definitely a 24/7 spell slot if you ever get to tier 3.
My point is that Arcana clerics are not simply waiting around for 17th level to be effective at what they do which is what you and the Dungeon Dudes seem to be thinking.
Yeah, I agree. Also, the Spell Breaker is amazing. I think that most of people never came across Arcana Cleric enough that they don´t remember all the features. Arcana is an A, tbh.
I started playing the Cleric a long time ago. because, "no one wanted to be the cleric." I have learned to absolutely love this class for it's versatility. Today, I will build a Cleric, unless someone else openly states that they want to play one.
Dude, same. I'll play a Cleric even if there's someone else in the party playing Cleric.
I've just had the conversation that, "We're two different domains, so there's RP potential over the differences in philosophy. And trust me, how ever you think a Cleric is supposed to play, I'll play it differently." 😁
My group has even discussed playing an all Cleric one-shot, each from a different domain.
@@nathanhall4824 I hope you name your group as the A-Men... Hahaha...
Bring a full team of Clerics of different subclasses, be called the A-men.. might have some different personalities and goals but got a very versatile team
@@kace10531 Ha ha! Yes!
Cleric is my default class
Monty took us on a heck of a ride as he journeyed from D to S on Life Domain.
Mass Dispel Magic, turning over half of the game's enemy types, and potent spellcasting paired with wizard cantrips; all widely overlooked for the Arcana Domain.
oh dear god no
The only downside to the Forge Domain I want to address is that it doesn’t gain proficiency in martial weapons. This is often overlooked due to the fact that it’s paired so often with Dwarves, but it’s still worth mentioning.
Agreed, I'd potentially make a hobgoblin forge cleric to work around that issue as well.
But really simple weapons work well too. Maces are great
But you're right that dwarves help a lot.
Wood Elves get swords and bows, so they're also good.
It is an issue, but I enjoy the challenge of figuring out a different way to be a threat on the battle field and be able to tank. Different than other clerics that is. I want to play them all.
Except nature. ;)
I don't really view that as a downside since clerics don't get martial weapons by default, and to my knowledge no cleric gets both heavy armor and martial weapons.
A Life Cleric was my first ever character. I loved every aspect of him, S tier for sure. I believe the cool thing about this subclass is that you can use channel divinity to heal (which recovers on short rests) and use slots to do damage/buff allies. Nothing sucks more than spending slots to heal 1d8+wis
Plus it's not considered a 'spell' it's a 'spell-like action' to use your channel divinity to heal. I saved a party by using it to get 3 people back on their feet AND casting bonus action healing word. Managed to bring the Rogue, the Bard and the Wizard back up to half hp, slapped the Rogue with Healing word to keep them in the fight longer. turned what could have been a TPK into a successful end of module boss fight (we were running at 5th edition update to Against the Cult of the Reptile God and a lightning bolt took at 3 out of the 5 party members, leaving just me and the fighter still up).
It took me a long time to realize that the Channel divinity was meant for bringing up people who dropped. Getting someone for 30 hp is amazing.
I still remove the half hp limit. I find it is enough of a trouble to divide the health 3 or 4 ways that also limiting half isn't usually needed
I was a little sad that the revamp Spare the Dying gets by the Grave domain didn't get touched on, if only because it takes very useless cantrip (see equipment: healers kit) and makes it so much more useful and effective.
Yeah, its useful.
But at the same time its also kinda overwright by the other features of the class itself. You dont need to use it at lower levels as long as you still having spell slots to do that sweet sweet maximazed heal, and at higher lvls you can choose atomatically to kill or stabilize anyone who goes down while in the same range (dont know with you can use it when you're out of range and aproach after, when Spare the Dying could still be a option).
I have very little concern for the powers of a 17th level ability.
Maximize heal will be more useful in most cases, but the ability to cast it as a bonus action and still use your regular spell slots because it's a cantrip, gives it a lot more use and versatility then it normally has, which is basically none.
Definitely. Always prepared, bonus action, and 30' range is a huge boost to its effectiveness.
No kidding. 30' Spare the Dying as a bonus action? Yes please.
I’d actually take the healer feat with a grave cleric.
Hard disagree on Arcana cleric, y'all. You get a limited banishment several times a short rest, a free dispel magic with ANY healing you do, and they're kind of amazing. Also, be advised that the spell list contains several ritual spells. So there are several spells you don't need to waste slots prepping, and that adds a lot to the mileage you get out of this domain. :) You make some good points, but this domain is one that is hard to see the potential of on paper. Y'all still get a like for constructive analysis though.
Hard to disagree? Or did you mean hard to agree? :)
Geoff DeWitt Both the Arcane Abjuration and Spell Breaker are heavily campaign dependent. It’s a B at best.
Geoff DeWitt, tamp down the excitement on the ritual spells. You still have to prepare those spells unless you take the Ritual Caster feat. Only Wizards can cast Ritual Spells without preparing them first. That actually makes this subclass *much much worse*, because even if you do take Ritual Caster, you still have a bunch of ritual spells that are auto-prepared for you. You get even less benefit from Ritual Caster because you can't not prepare those spells.
Scorpious187 Domain spells don't count against the number of spells you can prepare
@@NotYourAverageNothing I know that. What I'm getting at is having ritual spells on your spell list is a waste of space. Because they're always prepared, they're always taking space in your spell list, where if you take Ritual Caster you don't have to prepare them. So as a Life Domain cleric, I can take Ritual Caster and have ritual spells which I don't have to prepare (and thus don't take up spots in my spell list), like a wizard can. But because they're locked in on my Arcana domain list, they're just there, they can't be removed and they get no benefit from the Ritual Caster feat.
"Starting at 6th level, the cleric ability to channel negative energy becomes more potent"- Death domain. It says yor channel divinity AND spells ignore resistance to necrotic damage. Now I dont know how many monsters get immunity to necrotic, but it's sort of like elemental adept.
there are 11 resitant and 11 immune
@@wolves600 Are those just from the Monster Manual? I'm pretty sure there are a lot more than 11 creatures resistant to necrotic damage; at least when looking at all the books combined.
@@witcher_helms5144 apparently there are 2600 creatures in dnd and only like 4% of them have necrotic restiances/immunity. Plus you're a necromancer/cleric so you'll have things to deal with any/most undead to begin with. Really Death Domain will hit hard against most creatures.
I love how versatile clerics can be. I’m playing a light domain rn
You guys seemed to have forgotten that Death domain clerics ignore necrotic resistances
Yup. I was looking at that too
8:43 Small correction there, Death domain is in the Dungeon Master's Guide, not the PHB.
Monty subtly corrected a little bit after that.
@@rafaelseyssel3388 also his look was just like wtf dude
hey he's only a Variant Human... they sometimes make errors ;)
Also they ignore resistance to necrotic damage
@@litoslens Thank you, was looking for this.
So for the Arcana cleric: My group had one in Tomb of Annihilation, and Arcane Eye and Dispel Magic came in handy in many situations throughout the campaign, not the least because we didn't have a wizard. Ditto for turning extra planar entities and dispelling with healing . The entire module and the final dungeon was a great playground for that subclass in my experience, and we only got to level ten. On top of this, our cleric was an absolute beast in combat and managed to hold concentration for a silence spell while fighting a sphere of annihilation controlled by the BBEG in the final combat of the campaign. Totally clutch subclass if you can use it well, in my opinion.
I agree. I think their argument against this subclass is really really strange. It has the best level 17 power of all the Cleric subclasses but because it's level 17 and most campaigns don't make it that high, it should be ignored?! Literally none of the other subclasses were viewed with this odd nullifying point. Why is the Forge class so good when the really good topper is level 17 and you'll never reach it? In the negative, even subclasses such as Nature, which has a virtually useless level 17 ability, was not looked at unfavorably in this way. It's like they have some sort of bias against Arcana. So weird! And like you said, they disregarded the Channel Divinity (which becomes a free no concentration banishment eventually), The level 6 dispel with a heal can be a game changer. These are really useful abilities. They really missed the boat on the Arcana subclass.
Yeah. I am playing a knowledge domain with ritual caster Cleric in ToA with no wizard. It's quite useful! A little less wizardly than Arcana, but still filling a similar role.
@@fortunatus1 The forge domain topper is really good in addition to the better spell list and better features, not because of its 17. I don't think they took 17s into consideration at all for it and just added that its capstone feature was either good or useless. Also, spell breaker is helpful, only in campaigns with spells to be dispelled that get cast on people. Some campaigns are not spellcaster-heavy making the feature usefulness dependent on the setting. In a campaign where you only encounter a few spellcasters(not to mention they have to have a spell that affects your party members, which is also another subset of monsters that don't just deal damage or buff themselves), this feature is basically a waste, even in the one situation its helpful, is it worth picking an entire subclass for a feature you only use one time in the campaign?
Banishment can also be niche in application so having a free one may not be as useful as expected and certainly not more useful than some other channel divinity options, especially a banishment that only works on certain enemy types and only if they are not on their plane of origin(and below a certain CR)
I would argue in a campaign like that it works better than other campaigns where those features are not as necessary for success. Also holding concentration has nothing to do with the subclass, same with combat, i would argue the subclass is actually subpar in combat, with only potent spellcasting boosting their combat ability(and a good chunk of clerics get that)
I love that you recognize Life Domain can be a hindrance to a well-organized, balanced, and highly competent D&D party....while also recognizing no such D&D party exists 😅
My grave domain cleric slapped path to the grave on a BBEG and our Paladin of Vengeance then dropped him with a massive smite, good times.
michael wolf I play grave cleric and they are really fun. But do it some events I’m multiclassing
I think Arcana Domain should be reconsidered for several reasons that were never addressed in the original video:
1) Level 1 gets access to 2 wizard cantrips for free including Booming Blade & Green Flame Blade. Since most clerics never get access to extra attack, they can always feel free to use either of these cantrips for better melee damage. At level 8, potent spellcasting adds Wis modifier onto any damage caused which puts them in a good spot for melee damage without needing to burn a Feat for Magic Initiate. What they CAN burn a feat on is Magic Initiate: Druid to get access to Shillelegh and Thorn Whip, making them SAD to attack with Wis, and a pretty good sticky tank if used with Warcaster (this is my current AL build).
2) Spell Breaker at level 6 is a free mass dispel magic which can cure debilitating conditions AND HEAL in the middle of a fight without needing to choose. Enemy casts Synaptic Static? Mass Cure Wounds heals and cleanses your party so your Barb/Fighter doesn't have to worry about Int saves.
3) Arcane Abjuration was glossed over as a lackluster channel divinity against niche enemies, but at 5th level it is basically a concentration-free Banishment that doesn't burn a spell slot. Sure, it may pale in comparison to Radiance of Dawn, but after playing a Forge Cleric throughout CoS I would have much rather had a free Banishment than make random junk up to 100GP a few times throughout the day.
4) Arcane Eye is basically the ultimate scout for your party in a dungeon crawl that doesn't trigger traps, alert enemies, and can move through any door with a keyhole. If you have a wizard in the group already, great, they can prepare a different useful spell like Rary's.
Adding to #1) The bonus cantrips are great not just for booming blade & the like, but also because with Potent spellcasting (on them or others) you can do surprisingly good damage with your cantrips. Firebolt for 2d10+wis at lvl 8 is actually quite nice; acid splash, thunderclap, word of radiance can all do 2d6+wis to multiple enemies (putting it basically on board with 1st level spells). Also knowing arcana is always great, as its one of the higher end of useful skills in the game.
2) 100% agree with spellbreaker which wasn't even mentioned! This is one of the most powerful domain abilities in the class. Mass cure wounds, healing word, mass healing word, heal, etc. become INCREDIBLE spells when they all heal (already good!) + automatically dispel effects from your team! (No single target dispels to remove certain effects!) How did you guys overlook this?
3) Agree on arcane abjuration; I have no idea how fiends, elementals, fey, and (okay fine to celestials) were considered niche. Between those and undead (remember you're probably going to want to turn undead or abjure here; so the 2 CDs dont really compete direclty, which is nice) this ability is extremely useful.
4) Regarding the domain spells - first its useful to have things like detect magic and dispel magic on your list because they save you the memorization slot, a highly contested resource for your cleric, allowing you to memorize more situational things for your dungeon/adventure. ("We're at the yuanti-temple, so i'll memorize protection from poison since i have a free slot.") Arcane eye, leomunds chest, and teleportation circle are big deals if your party doesn't have a wizard (how many groups have a sorc, a non-tome-warlock, or no arcane ritual caster? you can really hit some of the big important rituals right here!) and I don't understand how you guys dismissed that.
5)The capstone is great, but I never worry about that stuff too much, and was not even on my list of reckoning; I'm not sure why you guys focused on that and every other ability here which is quite good!
Now theorycrafting aside; I've seen a 10th level arcane cleric in action (and built one) which is why I know it's as good as it is.
My recommendation to truly evaluate a subclass/kit for classes is at minimum, try to build a character for it (and look at it at a few level ranges like 3, 6, 10, etc) as if you were going to play it (note: trying to make it as effective as you would if you were going to play it in a long campaign) before trying to really assert how good you think it is.
Sorry if this was a bit standoffish; I normally really like your content. This just hit a nerve for some reason.
@@parabostonian2267
I definitely agree with your comments expanding on the synergy between cantrips+potent spellcasting. Since Arcana Domain is SCAG, I just used BB and GFB as the leading examples since they're from the same sourcebook (and bc I think they're darn good). If one is playing a non-AL Arcana Cleric as a tank, Word of Radiance (from XGE)+potent spellcasting against a mob is fantastic, dealing 2d6+Wis radiant against any chosen creature within 5ft. I mostly play AL, so alas my character can't use this combo.
Thank you for catching the Arcana skill proficiency, I was focused mostly on what was not addressed in the video, but agree the import is understated. As long as you have 10 in Int, the value of Arcana as a skill grows nicely with levels, and if one already has a Wizard in their party - great! - the Arcana cleric can assist them with an Arcana check to have them gain advantage with a higher modifier.
I am also suspect of how they are judging the "value" of these cleric domains, as it seems like they may just be loading a character to 20 in dndbeyond and reading through all the class features listed, which explains why some synergistic qualities were missed... Also agree on the value of evaluating subclasses at entry/exit of each "tier" of play (based on AL), so evaluating at levels 1/4, 5/10, 11/16, 17+. Since most D&D play never gets near Tier 4, lvl 17+, comments on capstone abilities are much less valuable to casual players than comments on how a character plays at, say level 10 (which any cleric does very well!).
I don't mean to sound mean but I see this a lot with the Spell breaker ability. Spell breaker only works on ONE CREATURE AT A TIME. "Starting at 6th level, when you restore hit points to an ally with a spell of 1st level or higher, YOU CAN ALSO END ONE SPELL OF YOUR CHOICE ON THAT CREATURE. The level of the spell you end must be equal to or lower than the level of the spell slot you use to cast the healing spell." To me that reads you could end the spell effect on one member not everyone. It's not beneficial to use this on a AOE, like In the situation you set, it would be better to cast dispel magic at 5th level.
@@brittanyanderson97 I disagree. RAW the description does not specify one creature at a time, but *one spell at a time* affecting *a creature that is healed*. In other words, you can remove one effect on each ally that is healed.
So if your party was hit by the Fear or Charm Person spells in a round, one could cast Mass Healing Word at 3rd level and choose which affect they would want to end on each ally that is healed by your spell. While both the identifiers are singular, only the spell effect is numerically limited in that turn.
Also using the Life Cleric's Disciple of Life trait as a supporting example, "Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell’s level." This feature only specifies "a creature" in the text per your original argument, yet is known to work on multiple allies affected by an AoE heal (likely to appeal to single target and AoE abilities).
Edited: Synaptic Static was a bad example since its instantaneous, switched to Charm Person as non-concentration duration spell example.
@@Sigourney-Cleaver it does say a spell but ON THAT CREATURE (singular) not CREATURES (plural). I would say in the case of spell breaker that would be at the DM's discretion to decide if that applies or not. Technically for Disciple of Life it is the same wording wise, A/THAT creature. Which refers to ONE, the wording specifies A CREATURE NOT CREATURES. So even if you use an AOE heal the ability only applies to A (singular) creature. DM's just allow it to effect more members or you could make vlid argument. It's just a nice ability or they don't get hung up on the wording, which I don't see as a problem in this case.
Another aspect is that you can achieve the desired effect without spell breaker by casting dispel magic where as you can't really add extra healing on top of healing spells. You'll probably say this is hypocritical statement (which in someways it is) but really it depends on how you and the DM interpret the wording. Sorry for sounding like a rules lawyer or that guy.
You guy's missed out on what makes death cleric a B tier. The fact that 6th lv. Subclass ability that negates resistance and immunity of your necrotic damage.
The mind control feature of the knowledge domain bumps it up to atleast a B imo; getting to bundle detect thoughts with a Suggestion spell (which automatically succeeds) is such a versatile skill
Seeing in recent d&d news that they’re adding 27 subclasses in TCoE, is that going to change this series of subclass ranking videos?
We'll be doing addendum videos once TCoE comes out!
what does TCoE mean?
@@aldoushuxley5953 Tasha's Cauldron of Everything
New DnD book
@@TM-nv oh awesome, thank you :)
Do we already know anything about this?
(What UA will become real, and what the new subclasses are)
@@aldoushuxley5953 22 new subclasses, 5 reprinted ones. All new, as far as I know, all the new subclasses are from UA. There are some confirmed ones, and there aren't actually that many UA subclasses. Nerd Immersion made his predictions in a recent video.
With respect to the fact that you guys said right from the start that you left rp concerns out, one of the most fun clerics I’ve ever played was a knowledge cleric. It fits a rp heavy game super well. You get so many languages and features that make it fun for out of combat stuff
The Arcana Domain absolutely deserves to be higher on this list since it lets you craft one of the most powerful magic items in the game: Wand of Magic Missile. Walk around with a coat full of them, or even better, hand them out to your entire party (it is important to note that they don't require you to be a caster to use nor do they require attunement).
How can they craft that?
@@rednose2601 There are rules for crafting magic items in Xanathar's Guide. It mostly boils down to "spend a couple sessions getting the formula and/or materials as determined by the DM, then spend some time between sessions on the actual crafting."
@@Narifamen but why can the arcana specifically craft it and not someone else?
To craft something like a wand you need to be able to cast the spell it uses (or have someone capable of doing so for you). So most clerics can't do that, but Arcana Clerics can since they have Magic Missile as part of their expanded spell list.
That said, there are plenty of classes and subclasses with access to Magic Missile. Wizard, Sorcerer, Arcane Trickster Rogue, Eldritch Knight Fighter, Armorer Artificer, and anyone who takes Magic Initiate to pick it up could also craft such a wand, provided they have the proper tool proficiency.
Shield spell or a RoSS with shield within it would render all those magic missles useless.
I played a knowledge domain cleric in a Dragon Heist campaign which more focussed on exploration than combat - she was awesome in that setting - Augury was my friend. I like playing clerics whose speciality ISN'T healing and my drow was more of an Inflict Wounds than a Cure Wounds character. As a result, I'd rank this a B or an A, but do realise that many campaigns have a much greater focus on combat.
I think the reason why Death Domain is popular is you can do the standard combo of Cantrip/Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians and use Toll the Dead as the cantrip - giving you 2 targets, which will lead to a lot more damage at level 5+ than adding Wisdom to one cantrip damage.
Well the wisdom mod damage to cantrips are to *all* cleric cantrips, and while there aren't many cantrips that can target more than 1 creature, especially wizard or cleric cantrips, it could be useful in that scenario (maybe using metamagic adept and twinned spell to nuke two creatures with firebolt or acid splash, the list goes on).
The Life Domain "combat medic" is a blast to play, where healing AND protecting his/her charges comes before doing damage to someone else...it is a tactical game all in itself.
The Arcana cleric’s extra cantrips are also good all campaign long. 5 cantrips at level 1 makes you a mini-cantrip master.
Yeah but that is basically the only useful thing about that subclass depending on the campaign you are running.
"Nobody wants to healbot"
I'll just pretend like I don't exist then.
female elf cleric of life:were inportant too!
I think what they mean is that in a game where you can create your own character and have decisions in the influence of the story, you don't want to be tethered to just supporting your team.
As in you don't have any agency, any impact in the story, your character is essentially a dispenser or a robot just for healing, a "healbot" and I ain't talking about a warforged.
And even then that's an insulting to treat another player like that. You expect someone only to heal, that's their only purpose. You dismiss their story, what they want to do because "well the party needs a healer."
If you enjoy being the medic, like I do, that's fine. But I hate spending hours creating my character, painting a miniature, investing time and emotion, only to be treated like an NPC who exists solely to keep reckless or selfish players alive.
@@TheDancerMacabre I have fun in the role play of a kindly older priest who exist to serve and help those who come by him. He has dedicated his life to others and asks only for donations to help preserve his church.
Makes it fun when he sees a situation go south and decides to go nova and nuke an enemy from orbit. Or the visuals of the kindly healer welding a mace and bashing a monsters skull in because they hurt his party.
But yeah, it's really important to talk to your play group and set the expectation of how your going to play your life cleric.
With the right guys, it can be good. But it has a lot of baggage exactly from video games where the specialization is extremely high. In MMORPGs 20 people each wear exactly one of 3 hats. In dungeons and dragons every character can wear 3 or 4 hats and should at least wear 2.
Great content Dungeon Dudes. Looks like this Tasha's Cauldron of Everything coming out is going to extend the subclasses out a bit. Stoked about it.
I am super hoping Rune Knight is in there.
A bunch of Unearthed needs to finally surface... I'm with you there.
@@jesselalli9551 There have been so many great UA classes.
I can’t wait!!!
Forge Cleric is the best. You literally get a magic weapon at level 1. Plus all those resistances you get. it's so good!
Don’t forget animate objects as a domain spell
If you want a damage dealing cleric, then ya.
@@Dickwraith101 And a smite spell at level 1!
Another cool thing to note, Forge Cleric is the only way for a PC to get a damage immunity that isn't poison.
@@emblem3272 forge domain walks through the volcano wondering why everyone is freaking out.
When they got to the Cleric, I knew it was take the Dudes a hot minute to talk about every. Single. Subclass. :)
Edit: Also, I just want to say that the Twilight Domain is by far one of my favorite subclasses. The channel divinity aura is so handy for giving your teammates that extra cushion in combat to help them stay in the fight.
And Steps of the Brave is very fun and the whole subclass is highly flavourful.
I hate the Twilight Domain so much. It's such an emo domain and every player I've ever known who's tried it has played their Twilight cleric like a friggin' rogue and I hate it.
Seems unfair to hate on the domain for how you've seen it played.
@@illoney5663 That's not the only reason I don't like it, but it's a contributing factor. Lol.
@@Scorpious187 my wife played a Twilight domain cleric as a chipper little halfling. :)
She made it a lot of fun. But I can see how people would fall into the trap of "emo cleric". But falling into tropes and assumptions is a danger in pretty much every class and sub-class.
Also; while the knowledge domain's capstone may be somewhat situational..the spell list is not! half the spells or more are not on the cleric spell list for starters. suggestion, identify and arcane eye are always useful spells to have and this cleric can really be a lore bard in the sense of the expertises it gets to knowledge checks coupled with 1 of its channel divinity options, meaning it can function as a lock picker if no one in the party is proficient with that. B tier ranking surely guys
I never clicked on a video so quickly! Clerics are probably my favorite class. The variety of domains are just incredible! Keep up the great videos!
Grave clerics should really be ranked higher than forge in my mind because time and time again the abilities of the grave will save and impact the party in combat. I don't think that the forge will have that much impact for the party, it'll impact more the PC. As a party member, I would rather have a grave cleric with me than a forge.
Heat metal and animate objects can definitely save the party.
Grave is good but still situational. Where as forge is always good imo.
The problem with the party-friendly features of the grave domain is that they are only good when things are going horribly wrong. Sure, the spare the dying buffs are great, but if you're using them instead of healing word, things are not going well for the party. The forge domain just by being good on his own will prevent things from getting to this point.
Katherine Minor
If you have the choice between a player: casting heat metal and a player: that can cancel Nat 20’s
You are going it want the guy that can cancel nat 20’s
@@TVMAN1997 Eeehhhh.... Nat 20's don't happen as frequently as people think. It IS nice to be able to negate nat 20's but unless you're rolling with a party that constantly gives advantage on everything all the time forever, it's not entirely prevalent. In 15 years I can't really say I've ever seen more than 4 or 5 nat 20's in a single session.
Also if Nat 20's were guaranteed to happen only in combat thag would be more useful, but a player/NPC is just as likely to Nat 20 on a skill as they are on a critical save or attack.
@@THEGRUMPTRUCK ...and for every hot night that reaches that 3-4 nat 20s, there's a night that doesn't see any...
"Next we'll be looking at the Death Domain cleric, which is located in the Player's Handbook."
*twitches in Dungeon Master's Guide*
That was me when they said the Wizard had more subclasses than Cleric
Regarding death domain: “even when amplified you’re just matching other options.” At level 7, i’m dishing out like 40+ damage with an inflict wounds+channel divinity which recharges on a short rest. Guiding bolt isn’t doing that anytime soon. Yall being way to hard on Death Domain. B tier at least.
too
i multiclass into death domain after 2 levels of paladin for the big smite potential
Agreed, plus one of their big knocks against it is that necrotic damage is a lower tier of damage... But this is addressed with the 6th level ability that negates most necrotic resistance.
@@ezirb7 I knew I read that somewhere - pretty cool ability that removes one of their main criticisms.
Playing one at lvl 14 and I'm out damaging the paladin 2 times per short rest, you really gotta lean into it for it to be good, I took heavy armor and a polearm, you can stay on the front for a long time dishing out a ton of damage while still having all of your resources to heal your party.
While I agree that the Death Domain got a bit of an identity crisis, I would still give it a B. You do get to eventually ignore necrotic resistance, and your Channel Divinity can be used with any melee attack, spell and weapon, which means you can use it through your Spiritual Weapon, and also Vampiric Touch which will actually boost the healing you get from it too.
Also, "death magic" and "necromancy" are 2 words for the same thing. You even refferd to the Death Cleric as "a more blasty necromancer" in your video about playing a necromancer. Clerics also have Speak With Dead, which historically is actually what necromancy was all about.
One thing I was surprised you didn't touch on for Life Domain, was their Channel Divinity. My last campaign ran up to level 16, and I buffed the monsters out the wazoo such that death was always around the corner, and having a Life Domain Cleric that could drop 80 hp of healing on the party, twice per short rest, was quite a big deal....
Totally agree I usually play life domain cleric and it's funny how all my party can be on the ground and in just one turn I can use Channel divinity and healing word and suddenly everyone is up again with half the HP
Knowledge Domain is great for certain party comps. Parties without a wizard or bard will really appreciate another character being able to pick up those out of combat skills.
for arcana domain, you're forgetting that you get two wizard cantrips, which can include the SCAG cantrips, which get boosted by Potent Spellcasting
decent cantrips doesn't negate that the rest of the subclass is niche until level 17
@@Koranthus it's still something they missed
I play a life domain and his background is a military medic. Your comment of triage was perfect for me. I use his bane/bless with spiritual weapon but if a friend needs help, I'm there for the big boost.
Heyy perfect video at the perfect time. I was just thinking about prepping a cleric in case my dragonborn lockadin dies, but there are just so many interesting sounding subclasses to choose from!
I in fact loved playing a life cleric by the way, it may not be a super diverse subclass with a bunch of cool toys, but it's reliable, useful for keeping the other players alive, and can still be super fun with a lot of creative ways to roleplay
Death Domain is great, I've been playing this subclass for two years and I think people who don't like it just never played the class? It works as a Melee necrotic class for big nuke damage with his channel divinity. A nuke damage that you can convine with Inflict Wounds a level 1 necrotic cleric Spell that later on you can cast it at 4 or 5 level for big meme damage. I was extatic when I got a critical 20 with an inflict wounds casted at level 4 plus the Channel Divinity that at lvl 8 added a + 21 to the damage pull. It felt amazing, we are talking of more than 100 damage on a turn. They take care about monsters in midgame being resistant to necrotic by giving you the passive hability to skip resistance, so unless the monster in question is inmune you will be more than ok. The "not good with the undead" sentence is just not true? You STILL have turn (and destroy) undead, wich is the best way to fight hordes of undead monsters as a Cleric. Cloud kill has saved my party over and over with ambushing crouds, it's a super cool spell and has a really nice flavor for a Cleric that worships a God of Death. Also you can still suport your party super well, if they need healing you can cast healing word, or mass healing word as bonus action while hitting big with your charged up necrotic weapon in the front line (or if your DM is cool with it you can have the spell driver feat to keep casting big nuke inflict wounds and healing word on the same turn). I wouldn't call it an S tier I undertand that are classes much more "optimal" but the majority of people who say is an A say it for a reson. It has a nice flavour, you can be a cleric that loves inflicting death with his own hands to his enemies, sending their souls as presents to an evil God, or a Cleric that is unafraid to fight in the frontline with the paladin because death is just another journey and he preffers to face it face to face. It might not be optimal but I think is WAY more fun than life Domain :)
I'm playing an 8th level Knowledge Domain Cleric right now and all I can say is that this subclass does WAY more in game than what it says on the book - specially if you have a DM that doesn't only throw demons at your face, that is, a decent DM. I'll admit it's niche and you have to commit to intelligence if you want to make the most of the flavour of it - as in an actual KNOWLEDGE domain cleric.... But being able to read thoughts, foresee the danger, and then use suggestion twice to make the heavy armored captain leader NOT ONLY drop all his equipment at our feet, BUT ALSO run after two cyclops (and most definitly kill themselves) instead of fighting our group was one hell of a victory.
Also, you'll be able to foresee all of the BBEG's plan beforehand and prepare accordingly. I would give it a solid B
I choose Life Domain because of how it frees up my spell list for other spells that are more situational. I play more triage and do more buffing in order to minimize the need for healing spells, but because of Life Domain, I have those spells on hand in an emergency, and they will be cast to greater effect because of the boost it gives healing magic.
You see, the death domain was critizised for having domain spells that were already on the cleric spell list, whereas the life domain was praised for the very same fact. The only difference is that in the life domain side of things, you are choosing non-"healing" spells whereas the death domain has to choose the healing spells. the equation is the same and in either case it proves that "domain" spell lists are bloody amazing for the massive amount of extra spells you end up with.
I think something you missed when you talked about the arcana cleric is the two wizard cantrips they get.
One of the bigger weaknesses of the Cleric class is that their spell list does not include a single attack roll cantrip, which i've found to be a surprising dissadvantage when playing as one. But with an arcana cleric, you can take something like fireball, and perhaps even a melee oriented attack cantrip, freeing up your reliance on a melee weapon. Potent spellcasting is also pretty useful, even if it is a later ability.
Spell breaker is also a potentially amazing ability due to it not relying on any sort of roll, and happening as part of you already doing something helpful to your team. In some ways it is like a free dispel magic on top of a healing spell.
That is an excellent point. Once you start running into enemies with Legendary Resistance, only having saving throw-based cantrips is a real problem.
doesn't save the subclass, if anything it makes it C instead of D.
Currently in my first campaign. I'm using a Variant Human Forge Cleric, and I'm loving it. Recommended to get the Skilled feat, when able. It helps with the crafting side of this domain if you use it to gain proficiency with multiple different tool kits.
One thing to note: Creating trinkets is done with Channel Divinity Artisan's Blessing. Blessing of the Forge gives you a +1 to either AC for armor or Attack/Damage rolls for weapons.
Played a knowledge domain cleric/gunslinger and it was awesome. Its abilites and spells really add to what clerics do and I think its a solid b. But I love being useful outside of combat. The expertise was great and came up all the time
Well, this sold me on the Life and Grave Domain clerics, for sure! I'm running a Light Domain cleric right now, so can't wait to see what features I've overlooked in the next video. Thanks for the content!
Being a newer player, I've only had experience at the table with Death, Forge, Life, Light, Nature domains (whether it be other players or me playing it)
* Death.. is a mixed bag, twinning Necrotic spells is kinda neat but haven't really great time with it, everyone loves the idea of *not* being the stereotype of their class
* Forge is solid, heavily resistant to attacks (especially fire) and the features along with the spell list make for a fun experience - haven't played before but reading their abilities does get me excited to create one
* Life isn't just a heal bot, they actually get access to Heavy Armor and Divine Strike - which does allow them to take some punishment and hit with those weapon strikes as needed
* Light is a fine subclass, Fireball always makes for a fun experience for players - let's you basically be an offensive spellcaster while still having the advantages of being a Cleric (can kinda compare this to the Divine Soul Sorcerer)
* Nature isn't my personal choice, someone played it at our table - didn't feel like they did a whole lot, kinda just felt like they didn't even have a subclass at times
Death Domain Cleric: "Now you die!"
Grave Domain Cleric: "Now you stay dead!"
Life Domain Cleric: "Now you live!"
Been playing an RP-heavy campaign with friends, I took Eldritch Knight Fighter with Knowledge Domain Cleric.
Knowledge Domain has been critical as hell the entire time. Spontaneous proficiency in a skill has gotten us more information; Augury has given us good direction; double proficiency in select knowledge skills is always awesome.
I'm not sure it's useful to rank it a 'C' when it's very clearly designed for RP-heavy campaigns as opposed to bare-minimum modules where the only thing that matters is DPS.
Got D&D essentials for my birthday in February with the intention of learning and playing with my 9 year old along with a couple of friends. Bloody lockdown spoiled that, didn't want to learn from scratch over a laptop! Have read and read the guides and watched a ton of your videos and think I'm nearly ready to DM my daughters cleric into the dungeon.
The moment I saw ''part 1'' I was like yep, there's at least a million subclasses in the PHB alone.
Wizards will probably get the same treatment.
I love that you guys put up content on Tuesdays, because Tuesday night is game night!
Can't wait to see Sorcerer Subclasses Ranked its one of mu favorite classes in the game
I feel like the sorcerer might desperately need some new subclasses. I really want to like storm sorcerer because the concept is cool but too many of its abilities force you to be close and if they don't, the lightning spells do.
Sorcerer should certainly get some charm based subclass to play on their charisma.
@@coleriedel751 what about Phoenix soul
I have to tell you guys, you are the best at explaining D&D on a variety of levels. IMO. I really appreciate your videos. Thank you.
Thanks so much :)
Dungeon Dudes: “this is our opinion, now let’s see how the community is wrong”. JK
!!
I think a lot of people really like the flavor of a sub-class and are willing to overlook some of its weaker elements. I love the flavor of a Death Domain Cleric and so in my mind it is going to be awesome.
We fully agree. Cleric was really hard because most people who pick a domain pick it because it suits their vision, so really, we just tried to stack them against each other, but they are all super good choices and fun to play.
Aye! It may be the particular campaign I’m in, but my Death Domain Cleric is almost too powerful, haha. I one-shot most enemies.
Toby Thompson yeah, it seems ridiculous if you have all of the undead for swarm tactics
Ping Pong D&D yeah, i dont use the undead too often but fallen aasimae death clerics are quite the damage dealing combo!
I think that's because Cleric's are one of the stronger classes in 5e, so even a sub-optimal domain is still going to wreak shit.
That being said, as cool as I think the Death domain is, I agree that it's torn a bit to much between wanting to be a Necromancer that uses WIS instead of INT and wanting to be a Death Knight-ish build. It's not bad, but it's seems to me that the class was thrown into the DMG as an example without much thought to balance.
I totally agree on the Life Domain Cleric being S tier. Not because it's powerful (although it is) but because it fits the DM's expectations so well... and because its spell list really does allow you to customize your chosen spells for the day to suit whatever your situation and playstyle suggests. Sometimes it's nice just being the cleric's cleric... and doing the job really, really well.
I'm genuinely astounded by how mixed the cleric subclasses are. I guess that just sort of comes with there being so many of them. That said, I super agree with Forge and Life being top-tier and Grave is definitely a lot better than the Death in general. I've had first-hand experience with all of them at my table and that's just how it panned out.
08i 0k0.,
Great videos! As a recommendation you should put marks in your video as if we want to simply skip to a subclass we can
Life domain was actually my favorite character I've ever played (party of six). I was super tanky but I agree, healing isn't optimal but you put on spirit guardians and spiritual weapon up and dive right in the middle. You provide heals afterwards to the party and also healing yourself on top of it. I feel the life domain is the tankiest form of cleric from level six and on and can become a focal defensive bastion for a large party.
Once during a fight with a green dragon all my party was going to die and as a cleric I had to sacrifice myself so I told them to run away and I would stay fighting with him. I used the combo that you say I was very lucky with the rolls and although the dragon had more than half of life in 5 turns I won the fight. I know it was pure luck literally for 5 turns I hit all my attacks I dodged his breath weapon (which I was resistant to because I was a dwarf) and in general I had a lot of luck with the rolls and the dragon very little.
My group's (I'm the DM) cleric is playing life domain. He's a big time DBZ fan, and honestly spends most of his turns yelling like Goku and firing out blasts of radiant damage. That said, I think his 'triage' skills as you describe are quite good. He typically asks if anyone is in desperate need, and if not, proceeds to beat up a lot of monsters. My campaign features a lot of undead, so his abilities are particularly useful, especially against some of the unending horde situations I've put them in. That said, the life cleric's healing abilities are pretty nuts. In a recent boss fight, the boss had managed to get his character pretty low while simultaneously knocking out the group's rogue and artificer. He timed a mass healing word extremely well. Just when it looked like things were getting deadly, he got everyone back up while simultaneously healing himself back to nearly full HP. I agree with a lot of the other comments here (and Kelly) that a well played life cleric will use their healing tactically and use the freedom from the class list to be a versatile combatant.
Kind of surprised you'd go with a C for Arcana cleric. Getting two wizard cantrips at first level is really useful. It even makes for a great dip option for a wizard looking to gain some armor proficiency in fact (if you take wizard options that don't use DC). The Arcana proficiency is also really nice.
Also, while Guiding Bolt is generally a better spell to use, even just having Magic Missile as an option is pretty sweet because it is guaranteed damage.
Well for these rankings they take a look at it from just being purely that class with no dips so while some like death and arcana might be good dips as a class themselves they aren't as great as some others not bad but just not great
super niche domain.
I played a Life cleric in a campaign that went from 10-20. I took magic initiate: Wizard for booming blade. Paired with Divine Strike and the vast array of spells that do damage over multiple turns, my DM started referring to my character as the caster paladin, and even gave me a homebrew Holy Avenger.
Life domain is so much cooler than a healbot.
Clearly this is anecdotal, but my all-time favorite character is a Knowledge Domain Cleric. Solid domain spell list. Cool domain powers. Also Potent Spell casting is far superior to Divine Strike, so every Cleric subclass with that feature should automatically get a boost in the tier ranking over those without it.
I'm actually really glad to see both the DD and the community ratings for the Life Cleric being so high. I so often hear them refered to as heal bots, but I LOVE playing my Life Cleric. My essential spells are prepped so I can be more versatile in my daily spell choices, AND my ability to heal more when I need to lets me use my other turns for fun damage or control spells. I adore playing her and I just want people to know how fun they can be 🥰 Also looking forward to trying out a new Grave Cleric in the new AL season coming up!
Arcana domain
Arcane initiate- arcana skill proficiency and a choice of 2 bonus cantrips from the wizard spell list. This gives the option for to choose cantrips that actually use attack rolls, or utility. The attack roll cantrips eventually get boosted with potent cantrip. Greenflame blade scales quite a bit as the wisdom gets added to both targets, and can be used with shillelagh to deal quite a bit of damage with relatively low resource investment.
Arcana proficiency can at least be used to make spell scrolls which involves no roll, just time/money/proficiency/and spell access.
channel divinity: arcane abjuration- is definitely quite limited since it affects only one creature, but it does have some value as it improves upon the ability to “turn” other creature types. It may also be a decent option at lower levels with the low amount of spell slots available.
Spell breaker- quite a bit more powerful than at first glance. The dispel feature isn’t limited by number of creatures. If you use a spell like mass healing word, you can end a spell on each individual creature. This feature is not limited to cleric spells, so goodberry could go quite far for ending alot of spells against different targets. Healing spirit can do so a few times in combat if your willing to druid dip. its also not limited to one dispel per casting. A lingering spell that heals like regenerate would potentially dispel a spell every time the creature starts its turn and heals 1 hitpoint.
Arcane Mastery- ridiculous, but you guys talked about that.
2 cantrips is cool but not worth a domain, there's plenty of feats that do the same. Arcane abjuration is limited to only 4 enemy types and the banish is worded to only work if they are not native to your plane. Spellbreaker requires a campaign with a plentiful supply of enemy spellcasters that have debuffs otherwise completely not worth counting over other domains. Not to mention abilities are not spells, so inherent ability users are immune to this feature as well.
Another reason life domain is extremely powerful is because of goodberry. By picking up the magic initiate feat you can cast the 1st level druid spell "Goodberry" once per day. You can now cash in a spell slot before each long rest for 10 goodberries which heal 4hp each (40 healing per spell slot) thanks to the life domain's 1st level perk "Disciple of Life". These remain for 24 hours so they can be used the following adventuring day. This is equivalent to magically producing 5 healing potions every day.
My Hill Dwarf Life Cleric that I rolled all abysmal stats for except for a single 18, dump it in Con + take the tough feat at level 4 + wear heavy armor = have a 20 con score at lvl 1, gain 13 hp/lvl, have an AC of 18
There were some Cleric subclasses that were released in a kind of collaboration between D&D and Magic the Gathering. It was a series of open access documents called Plane Shift. One of them added 4 subclasses that were mostly remixes of some of the classes in the Player's Handbook. Not to add more to your workload, 12 is already a lot, but maybe, you can go over these subclasses in a future video. I think there was a sorcerer subclass as well. In any case, thanks for the high quality content.
Love you guys. Although, I disagree about the capstone feature of the Arcana cleric. I can honestly make due without it. While high level spells are cool and stuff, honestly I don't see the big issue about them. Frankly, the cleric spell list caps out after 6 as does most spell caster spells. 7 and onward aren't as beefy as one would like them to be. (IMO of course)
That's why they didn't weigh it much into the decisions, it seemed like it was a "oh and their capstone is good or bad" rather than the rating being affected by it. Without its capstone, arcana is very niche in application the only good thing it gets is 2 cantrips.
My favorite character that I have played so far is my Tiefling Forge Cleric (not optimal, cause he already has fire resistance, but whatever), Regna Stonemelder. He was adopted by Dwarves and worshipped Moradin. His build was all about deciding whether he would be the frontline tank, or making someone else the tank while he supported from the backlines. I used his Channel Divinity to create the platinum rings required for Warding Bond, leading to the strategy that he and the Rogue love to implement. Through a combination of Blessing of the Forge, Shield of Faith, and Warding Bond, we turned the rogue into a tank by giving him +4 AC and resistance to all damage, while Regna stayed 50 ft back firing Guiding Bolt at whoever the rogue was engaged with, providing advantage and thus sneak attack.
Also, he's a cinnamon roll who's terrible with money. I love that little guy.
“The only thing a history degree will get you is teaching history for the next forty years…”. That hurts me. - from a middle school history teacher 😬
I think when looking at these subclasses one of the most important things to consider besides the abilities, their overall usefulness, and time is juxtaposing it to what is typically happening when you get these features.
You get them at 1st, 2nd, 6th, 8th, and 17th.
The reason these first and second level abilities get such respect is twofold. First level characters tend to be somewhat generic. Having these features early helps you lock in to your identity more quickly. Additionally, it's what makes the Cleric, Sorcerer, and Warlock such strong multiclass options, allowing the player character to often get a massive boost of strength and utility in times when their main class features enter a lull.
At 6th level the elephant in the room is level 5. This marks 3rd level spells and extra attacks entering play, usually accompanied by a massive increase in difficulty. In effect, if you are aware if what kind of campaign you'll be playing in, 6th level features among all classes function as a way for the player to predict ahead and counterplay the kind of threats they are expecting to face. To use an example in this video, a Grave Cleric is a fantastic defense against the undead. If you are aware that a campaign will have hoards of enemies, as undead often impliment, the chances of a PC getting hit with a critical goes up immensely. So negating crits becomes something that simultaneously makes them a better specialist AND generalist, which is not often seen.
At 8th level we get an ASI which can be spent on a feat or ability to further supplement the offensive abilities added here. Getting bonuses to Str, Dex, or the Martial Adept, Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master feats adds impact to the classes which offer a bonus to melee damage. While investing in Wis or even getting Magic Initiate FOR Cleric on top of being one gives you more options and power.
Apart from the 8th level ability's boost we sometimes see at 14th level, the next option is at 17th. In addition to being so far in the game that most won't use it, this is also at the time that we gain access to 9th level spells and the difficulty of our antagonists reaches their peak. Therefore while a strong ability is somewhat cheapened by it appearing so late in the game, a lackluster ability is made even worse. The Knowledge domain 17th level ability for example has fantastic roleplay potential and out of combat utility. However considering that this is also when you'll be facing enemies like Demon Lords and the mysteries the ability might solve are largely resolved, it becomes disappointing and a bit of a waste.
For these reasons I'd argue again that when looking at these abilities and when we get them, we must also strongly consider what else will be happening in the campaign, with the other PCs and our enemies when speaking for or against these. Some people look at these abilities at face value and simply use a slider of when they come online to indicate importance, to which I say it is far more nuanced.
I just like the theming of the knowledge cleric-it really plays into the 'clinical' aspect of a class that's dedicated partially to healing and I love playing sage-type, knowledge seeking characters. Also Int checks are pretty useful and I myself use them a lot as a DM but that might not go for everyone.
The clincher here is Suggestion. Not only do you get such a good spell as Suggestion without having to leave anything off the table, at level 6 you can-in a roundabout way-cast it once per short rest without a spell slot.
Monty your comment during the Grave Domain section, that Kelly’s character negated crits for his allies, how it felt like he was messing with you as the DM, and your appreciation of Kelly’s role playing...all of this is a testament to your wise perspicacity as a DM.
I'm playing my first-ever character which is a Light Cleric. I'll be surprised if it is not ranked S-Class. I love it!
Life clerics make amazing tanks, and they're versatile enough that you can drastically change your tactics from round to round, as well.
Life Domain's channel divinity option (which recharges on a short rest) heals people with a pool of HP equal to 5X cleric LV like a paladin. Honestly using this might be better than wasting spells on healing (at least for conserving spell slots). You can also use it before taking a short rest because you'll get the channel divinities back after the rest.
Indeed; their take on Life -Cleric is just plane meh. The single-best thing about them is their Channel Divinity. Second is the Heavy Armor Proficiency. Third is their spell list is good BECAUSE you always want them so it's, hands down, the most flexible of all domain lists. Fourth: healing word is the best heal to use in a fight and only the life-cleric can use it well.
Essentially; a good life cleric is your front-line fighter AND your support/healer spell user. He get's even better with a fellow front-liner to support him.
@@bitharne Maybe not fighter, but front-line medic definitely. Maybe fighter if they have high strength, or use something like Shileileigh. But yeah, hands down best healer.
Came here to confirm how awesome it feels to cancel these crits. Grave Domain is my personal favorite! You guys got a pretty good grasp of the different subclass aspects, props to you for the monster task!
Yeah, we have Life Domain Cleric in our Monday's campaign and we absolutely need her. For most players this was our first time playing, so some builds are not balanced the best. We have a BM Ranger, an Ancestral Guardians Barb, said Life Domain Cleric and I myself play a Draconic Sorc. Sometimes we also have a Feylock. Between things like me not knowing how important Dex is when I made my character (leading to an AC of 13... but +3 Con on the other hand), our DM rolling pretty well most of the time... we need our cleric. But her player makes sure that she has plenty of character outside of keeping us alive.
Yeah, Life Domain really shines when you're playing with players that are either new to the game or unfamiliar with each other. It's a security blanket not only for the DM that hopes to heap punishment on players, but for the players who want to live long enough to learn from their mistakes.
I just had a thought - Grave Domain and Zealot combo, that means that your Barb is too angry to go unconcious and will never die.
I miss your iconic sword-splitting-the-screen graphic. Bring it back!
I have a suggestion for a video you guys could do! It's a bit of a deviation from the normal, but I think it would be really fun.
Ranking homebrew things! I would recommend subclasses, as there's the most of them out there. D&D Wiki has a large selection of them that are fun to read through, as does D&D beyond. You could rank them based on how powerful they are compared to normal subclasses of that class, then decide if they are too broken to be put in games or if they are balanced enough that it's not a huge deal if they are implemented in games. You could do one or two subclasses per class, broken up amongst two or three videos! I would recommend the Demolitionist Variant subclass from the D&D Wiki, as I personally think it is pretty balanced, or at least not too broken. Just something to think about!
I just think this is a cool video idea that you could do. I know that I would watch it, and probably lots of other people! You guys are awesome, and though I don't always agree with your opinions, I respect your work. Thank you so much for everything you do!
Oh, and if the community has any homebrew class or subclass recommendations for me, please send them! I love looking over homebrew stuff, even if they would NEVER be allowed in a normal game! Please send links to homebrew content for me!
So is no one gonna mention Kelly's shirt?
I was curious what that was
Akira/star wars? Or am I missing the reference?
Played a knowledge domain cleric, the ability to use a channel divinity to gain a skill or tool proficiency was really useful and the read thoughts channel divinity is just amazing.
I'm playing Curse of Strahd for my first D&D campaign, I'm playing a Beast Master Ranger and I'm multicassing into Life Domain Cleric. Let me tell ya, there is no such thing as overkill healing in Barovia.
I played a grave domain cleric in a Curse of Strahd campaign and that character was so amazing and so much fun to play.
I'm convinced this tier list is based purely on how effective the cleric is in combat with little consideration for out of combat utility.
Death cleric would be rated S if that was the case.
Reaper ability from the first level pretty much doubles their cantrip damage for the whole game and they can ignore necrotic resistance.
Explain me to me when you’re using spells and class features outside of combat? Sure there are spells like identify or detect magic, but the most common dnd event is preparing for combat, avoiding combat, healing from combat, or combat. Investigative abilities are importantly but there aren’t a lot of scenarios out there where combat is the last thing you’re thinking about, unless you’re playing something niche.
One of my favorite ways to revamp the knowledge domain cleric is to homebrew it and allow them to use intelligence for spellcasting. It's also powerful for a skill monkey multiclass. Without either of those caveats, though, C tier feels about right. Good work guys!
The Death Cleric is better than given credit for here
The Domain spells include Ray of Sickness, which is one of the better low-level debuffs as Poisoned is a really nasty condition
If the enemy creature is likely to have advantage or immunity to this condition, Ray of Enfeeblement is also a good low-level debuff, for nerfing a single strength-based combatant
Blindness/Deafness is also good but on the cleric spell list already
It's true that all these spells use Con saves (RoE is ranged attack but saves are made afterwards) but the debuff is typically worth it
As for fighting undead, the 6th-level ability is to ignore necrotic resistance. Plus you'll probably take Chill Touch as your bonus cantrip anyway
The lack of heavy armour isn't a problem since scale mail with 14 Dex is just as good as Chainmail. Half-Plate is nearly as good as Plate and equals it if you get Medium Armour Master with 16 Dex.
Now the subclass does encourage a melee playstyle with the CD and 8th-level damage addition, which should detract from the debuffing mentioned, but the CD is for all melee attack including Vampiric Touch (auto-prepared) and Spiritual Weapon, which are melee spell attacks. The 8th-level bonus does encourage getting good with a shortsword or longbow since it is weapon attacks but given that you have undead to Help or to flank, 14 Dex isn't a big issue
I personally think this subclass should be B-tier since whilst I'm still not sold on the weapon aspect, this isn't a problem for the first 7 levels, where the Death Domain works as a surprisingly good debuffer.
My problem with the Death cleric (just got out of a campaign where I played it to level 11) is that it doesn't seem to know whether it wants to be a melee or ranged attacker. You get this cool ability to target two people (within 5 feet of each other) with your cantrips Chill Touch and Toll the Dead, but you don't get potent spell casting to add your wisdom mod to your cantrips.
You get a channel divinity that adds a ton of necrotic damage to a melee attack and divine strike with adds necrotic damage to your melee attacks as well, but you don't get proficiency in heavy armor. And it's cool that your necrotic damage ignores resistance seeing as it's the majority of your damage, but that never really came up for our campaign because we didn't fight a bunch of undead.
It was really fun to play and to RP my gollum-like death cleric that just wanted people to like him, but the class felt a bit divided in how it wanted to approach combat. I think either giving it potent spellcasting (and increasing reaper's range to 10 ft), or giving it heavy armor proficiency would go a long way to defining how the class wants to play.
Death domain can be pretty wicked on the damage side of things. The combination of Inflict Wounds and the channel divinity is kinda gross, especially if you upcast the spell. The chance to double up on Toll the Dead also keeps you pretty relevant on round to round damage, and you can almost always find two baddies standing next to each other. The spell list could use some work, yes, and I'd also rather have better cantrips and not divine strike, but you take what you get.
@@vincentbartels1111 I think the class should have got potent spellcasting too. The subclass is still a little muddled on Dex or Wis. I tend to give my cleric shields so I don't really use strength-based weapon and don't usually bother with heavy armour since rapier=longsword with S&B.
I'll defend the CD since it still works with spiritual weapon but the Divine Strike bothers me too since, even though you can be an archer to stay ranged, unless you get a crossbow to use wisdom somehow, you may get a little MAD
That said, I still give it a B and I'm glad that you had a good time with it too
They literally said it would be a problem fighting undead with resistance to necrotic damage.......completely forgetting that said resistance gets nullified once you hit level 6.....not much to do about some of it's poison damage spells though, but it is what it is since that's the worst damage type in the game anyways.
I've been playing a DDC for 2-3 months now in a campaign, currently at level 3. I think they are somewhat correct in the idea of spells, bc it feels like the only necromancy spell I ever toss out is false life-the cantrip perk is situational, but I've used it twice so far.
As Vincent said, it does feel like it's mixed in combat-do I use spells, or do I attack with my weapon? When casting spells, do I buff/debuff, do I heal, or do I just do spell damage?
I've had a blast playing it, def a B tier class so far imo
Life Domain is S. Period. The fact that you get bonuses to healing means that you can go longer without hitting the panic button. Or simply require less effort to bring an ally back from the brink. It frees you up to cast damaging or support spells.
Tbf, a history degree can also be used to get a master's in library science. (Leaper182)