Early Jon Chapters Circa 2003/2004
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- Carmine and I discuss previous versions of Jon in ADwD/AFfC found by gsteff at Cushing library.
gsteff's reddit post on his visit:
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It's really awesome of Gwen Stefani to do all this research for the fandom. Really great work and analysis.
She’s an artist without limits
Her shit is bananas
@@afnanbogey B-A-N-A-N-A-S
@@zenm0de no diggity
Hella Good work, Gwen.
"With kids, you get sick of answering the same questions over and over again."
Figured you'd be a master at this after answering the same ASoIaF questions repeatedly 😂
And welcome back, Preston! Hope you got at least a little rest, and this video is a wonderful treat to herald your return!
Carmine, if you ever get the chance to meet Preston's kids, please teach them to ask him "when is your book/next chapter coming out?" so he can get the full GRRM experience.
This is so hilariously evil
Indeed😊
Seems like Martin really wanted a Jon and Bran reunion in some form or another, with Ghost potentially going to Bran after Jon's stabbing, and dealing with the mutineers. If the latter were to happen, I'd bet Bran and Jon would've had a near encounter there as they did in the show.
(Though comparing anything to the show is always a tricky wicket, I feel like it'd be more likely given that this took place a bit earlier in the show, during season 4. I feel like Martin was still on board and being consulted at that point, whereas seasons 5 and later it seems as though a rift formed between him and D&D.)
If ghost went to bran could that negate the idea that Jon’s consciousness is in ghost? Due to Jon’s consciousness being needed to ressurect him, how would that work? Maybe he intended Jon’s body to be taken by the others for some time , to allow ghost to trace to bran, stay with bran, and leave the cave and go back to the wall, which might be months.
I really like your content btw!
Seems like? He stopped writing episodes and claimed he didn’t have time to watch the show while recommending other shows to his fans 😅
*sticky wicket
About Janos Slynt and Littlefinger: It is explicitly stated in Clash of kings that Tyrian was convinced that Janos Slynt was Littlefinger's man. Tyrion says that he has likely replaced one of Littlefinger's men with one of Varys' men.
Tyrion thinks Slynt is LF's creature not Lannisters. That's why he gets rid of him.
And, of course, Varys in his conversation with Tyrion, implies that Littlefinger was the mind behind Ned's execution. This was confirmed later on in Dance with dragons when Cersei recollects how LF wanted to marry Sansa and Lannisters refused him - hence Ned's execution.
It makes sense to me that Tyrion got rid of Slynt. However, indeed, there is a problem with next step - he really should have seize LF and have him executed.
Also, once Tyrion sent Slynt to the Wall, LF sent Kettleblacks for them to be recruited by Bronn.
1:10 "You get sick of answering the same question over and over again" I guess that's how GRRM is feeling...
They never found my body and they never will.
I was a foetus when these chapters were being drafted and I’m still waiting for the new book,
I’m 18
D&D definitely had access to these drafts. In the show Tormund fears the wall will fall while he's pissing or smth.
Omg Stannis saying that Lyanna pressumes to shout him, I know it's a modern thing but it's supper funny and totally something I see Stannis saying, if he just said that after reading the letter without crushing it it would have been hilarious. Thanks for this kind of videos.
23:00 circumstances have significantly escalated since Edric was a ward on Dragonstone. Also, Davos orchestrated his escape BECAUSE he feared they would burn him.
Yeah, I mean it's five long books, so I don't fault them for forgetting, but like the whole point was that they freed Edric right as the forth? king died, proving Mel might be right.
Mel could also be wrong about WHO that prophecy is about and not be a total fraud. So many people like to forget that when she is bringing up all her powders and smokes that apparently prove she doesn't use magic she literally thinks "my spells will suffice" and goes on to say that ever since coming to the wall she has become more powerful and capable of things she could never do before.
We are seeing the story from Qwentyns POV at the time that he witnesses his whole body catch fire and proceeds to start screaming in agony.... The only possible 'out' for this is if he somehow was fireproof in the same way that Dany was when hatching the dragons
Preston Jacobs is mocking people for believing really unlikely things, such as the Red Woman actually having magic. Preston Jacobs is mocking people for believing unlikely things. PRESTON JACOBS...
Dude once think this is a scifi
@@gogozeppeli9267 "once"
He is really gatekeeping "unlikely" theories
The thing with PJ is that he thinks just bc GRRM is borrowing inspiration from his old scifi stories that means asoiaf is scifi. Two different things. Yes GRRM is borrowing heavily from his old stories and no..Planetos is not a stagnant post apocalyptic civilization. Meaning, when he's dead and Elio and what's her name finish the books we are not going to find zip to substantiate this. I lobe the guy but...I love the guy.
As someone fully in the "why not both" camp the scifi vs fantasy debate in this fandom to be so damn strange. I don't think it's meant to be read one way or the other, but somewhere in between
Well tiwyn gave Tyrion orders to fix the slynt/harrenall thing . Slynt is a 'butcher', he doesn't have honour in the eyes of the Lannister and their allies. It's a class thing.
That description of Ghost sounds more like he's walking down the tunnel to the gate Rangers would leave and return to, not underground tunnels.
Yeah, absolutely, I don't no where Preston got underground tunnels from in that passage. It's clearly the tunnels that cut through the Wall. It guess the telepathic signals can pass through the holes in the gate? Anyway, I don't think we ever hear about any gates being underground near the Wall.
I prefer the idea that Shireen is burned by wildlings because she has greyscale, after the wildlings take control of the wall following Jon’s death. Mel, selyse and shireen become nothing but prisoners. Mel has to pretend to go along with the burning and appear to not be a challenge to the power of the wildlings. Shireen is burned on the same pyre as Jon. Mel uses this oppurtunity to try magic, and it resurects Jon. It would be even cooler if mel put eggs on the pyre thinking shireens blood would wake the dragosn but instead it resurects Jon. Jon being a metaphorical dragon, would be amazing.
I'm fine with any other option, just don't let my boy Stannis be the one who burns her.
@@transformersrevenge9 I am fine with any Option as long as Stannis the Mannis sits on the Iron Throne in the end
@@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506
The 1000th Lord Commander.
What would be the purpose of Gilly's baby staying at the wall then if not to be burned?
@@R0CKDRIG0 The baby swap could be in order to cause Mel to NOT do a burning ritual, if the baby swap was revealed to her just before she was going to do it.
Strange how this video ended abruptly instead of their usual sign off.
About Melisandre getting hyped up by people finding her spooky, she leans into it hardcore. She is extremely theatrical to intimidate everyone around her. It would be hilarious if she did have actual pyrokinetic powers, but they are so weak the only thing she can do is heat up her body and maybe warm a cup of tea…but not hot enough to boil.
Thinking about it, she reminds me a little bit of Granny Weatherwax from the Discworld series. Granny also scares her local ignorant populace so they ascribe all sorts of powers to her when she normally finds mundane solutions. The secondary twist is that Granny does have real magical powers, but is smart enough to rarely use them.
Granny is a no nonsense one. I see what you're saying though.
@@cyrneco that why I said a little bit. There are many differences between Melisandre and Granny Weatherwax. But they both manipulate people by playing into their expectations of power. Moreso I guess in how people react to them…except Granny is probably trusted a good deal more than Melisandre. But yeah just that idea of letting people make up badass stories about them.
@@Pikepaw yes I see what you're saying. The method is the same but in a way they are totally opposite, as you kind of pointed out yourself when you said that granny does have magical powers. Both use theatrics but Melisandre is a charlatan with some power, granny is a powerful magician who uses whatever tool is suitable to help her 'flock'. That said I do think you're right, it's only that the fanatism of Melisandre is so far from granny that it never occurred to me that they were in any way comparable.😄
You might guess that Melisandre is one of the chars I 'hate' most in asoiaf, even tho she isn't as evil as others fanatics always give me the creeps...
Her powers aren't necessarily pyrokinetic, she clearly has powers i.e. magic shadow assassins, and she literally thinks "my spells will suffice" When thinking about the items in her chest starting to run out, then she hints at her power growing at the wall. All of that is in her own head alone so obviously she has some sort of power its just very much like GRRM to not explain it at all.
@@joedols4756 it is typical GRRM ambiguity, but you can make the argument that Mel’s POV only proves she believes her own hype. It does not necessarily mean she has supernatural powers beyond what is termed “Teke”. The vaguely defined telekinetic/telepathic abilities that Bran, Dany and co seem to have.
But as we agree it is deliciously vague. So it could also be magic powers. The main takeaway of her POV as Preston has said many times is Mel is clearly less magically powerful than she claims, even if The Wall is giving her a boost
About the Janos Slynt thing, I think Tyrion sending him to the wall was sort of George's way of letting the audience know that Tyrion doesn't really like the Lannisters that much. There were other hint in earlier in the story of this, but there were also hints that Tyrion intended to undermine his house in certain ways that never came to fruition. His intention to send Sansa back North without discussing it with his sister or father. That's a huge move that can easily be carried out poorly. His misgivings over not sending Ice back, after it's given to Jeffrey as a b-day present. Perhaps that's not a huge example, but it does show where his mind is willing to go over something that is a rather trivial matter in comparison to other things. His father would have never endorsed that decision.
I think Tyrion also just thought that Ned's execution, besides being a terrible move politically, was also a huge injustice and he wanted to punish those who in his eyes were responsible for it. Tyrion did say that he came to KL to deliver justice. Of course he has his own biases and I think after talking to Janos, Tyrion just comes to the conclusion that he just doesn't like the guy so he deserves whatever is coming for him, but I think Tyrion did believed he was doing the morally correct thing (besides also strengthening himself politically, by installing his own men in these positions).
@@theletterm5425 true enough! Interestingly, I'm not certain that Tyrion had Slynt arrested as much for Ned's murder as for the part he played in murdering Bara (I believe her name is) although he definitely may have feared that Slynt might play a part at bringing him down at his sister's order. Tyrion did ask Bron if he would murder a baby with no questions asked. Bron didn't exactly say yes, but he may as well have, signifying that Tyrion might not have much of a moral high ground as long as he kept Bron around
@@StannisHarlock Ah, yes, you just jogged my memory with that line about killing babies. That might have been the main point then. Although I do think that there was something there about Ned's execution as well. But in any case, we can definitely agree that Tyrion is firmly on his moral high horse when making that decision, which is more then just a bit hypocritical, but I guess that's what being made Hand of the King on a whim does to someone lol
@@theletterm5425 oh yeah, there was definitely plenty about Ned. His execution played it's part. The evidence that it might not have been the main driver of the decision to get rid of Slynt was that Tyrion also sent Allar Deem to the Wall with Slynt for his part in Bara's murder. But Tyrion had a healthy respect for the Starks and the North in general. After Ramsey burnt Winterfell, I recall Tyrion almost lamenting over it. As far as Lannisters go, his sense of justice was actually worth something.
@@StannisHarlock Tyrion lamenting the burning of Winterfell is really amusing, considering in the original draft version of ASOIAF it was supposed to be Tyrion doing the burning of Winterfell. Gardener writing style at it again!
*_TYRION v SLYNT_* There's really no mystery at all as to why Tyrion hems up Slynt but appears to let Baelish slide. He has several reasons for doing so, one of which he states explicitly. When Tyrion offers him Harrenhal, Petyr remarks on Slynt having last held Harrenhal (and look what happened to him). Tyrion baldly declares (perhaps not reassuringly) that he still has use for Baelish-just not for Slynt.
Overall, by removing a key player in the coup from the cyvasse board of thrones, Tyrion THINKS he's achieving at least four strategic objectives:
(1) MAKE USE OF PETYR AS A RESOURCE. Tyrion doesn't trust Littlefinger further than he can stand and Tyrion pee on him. Even so, Littlefinger clearly has a formidable spy network that rivals Varys's, as well as influence and resources that no one can seem to get a bead on to measure its full scope. Why not see what he can get out of him before he removes him from the Cyvasse Board of Thrones entirely? Don't forget that Tyrion buys into his own hype of being the Man Smartest Man in the Seven Kingdoms. [This makes me recall Stannis' recollection of Robert's own words in regards to Slynt: "'They all steal' I recall him saying. 'Better a thief we know than one we don't, the next man might be worse.' Lord Petyr's words in my brother's mouth, I'll warrant." (_A Storm of Swords_, Chapter 78, "Samwell V")]
(2) [Yes] FUCK UP CERSEI'S SHIT. Tyrion both loves and loathes his family-his sister second only to his father. But while Cersei is unaware, Tyrion knows full well that Slynt isn't actually one of Cersei's creature, as she thinks. The problem is Tyrion also has an incomplete picture of the shifting, multi-layered loyalties of King's Landing. (More in the next point)
(3) MAKE ANOTHER COUP LESS LIKELY. Lannister man or not, Slynt came in clutch for the coup, playing a crucial role in the arrest and eventual execution of the LAST hand of the king. As the current HAND (even if only by proxy), Tyrion can't rest easy with Slynt at his back. By replacing Slynt with Bywater, Tyrion imagines he has the Commander of the City Watch + Small Council member beholden to HIM for his position, insuring Bywater (and by extension, the City Watch) will be in his pocket. In fact, all Tyrion's really done is exchange control of a key government post from one of Littlefinger's creatures for one of VARYS's. Recall this exchange between Tywin and Tyrion:
Tyrion: "Janos Slynt is a butcher's son. You yourself told me-"
Tywin: "I recall what I told you. Castle Black is not Harrenhal, however. The Night's Watch is not the king's council. There is a tool for every task, and a task for every tool."
Tyrion: "Lord Janos is a hollow suit of armor who will sell himself to the highest bidder."
-_A Storm of Swords_, Chapter 32, "Tyrion IV"
(4) FEED HIS SELF-IMAGE CASTING HIMSELF AS A KNIGHT ERRANT. Like most villains, Tyrion doesn't realize he IS one. Tyrion is a true youngest child, taking no responsibility for his fuck-ups; or, if he does, it's STILL not his fault because he couldn't help it. (Source: I'm a youngest child. Also, therapy.) As I interpret his inner monologue, Tyrion thinks that by being the least-shitty Lannister, he's doing some good in the world; or, at least offsetting a few of the worse aspects of Lannister power and influence.
*_JON v SLYNT and Sansa's "True Knight"_* I'm not sifting through the chapters to do a full analysis tonight, especially not for something the Sansa x Jon stans have already written about extensively. But, there's a fairly convincing textual and thematic argument to be made for Jon Snow being Sansa's "true knight." Throughout the majority of the first four books, as Sansa reflects on the purpose of knighthood, the qualities of a "true knight," and all the ways the majority of the knights she's met since she came to King's Landing fall short, Jon performs acts of "true knight"-hood by Sansa's established criteria. Look in particular for the passage where Sansa, in one of her inner monologues, is once again lamenting the absence of "true knights" in the real world; in this particular case, in regards to her loathing of Slynt and how she wished a "true knight" would come along and execute him for his crimes. In a later chapter, Jon beheads Slynt at the Wall. If that's the case, then GRRM put the slimy fucker at the Wall for Jon to behead, with Jon not realizing Sansa would have heartily approved. Again, the Jonsa faction has written at length about this before, so I won't retread that ground here, tonight.
Despite his snobbish loathing of Janos Slynt Lord Tywin perceived that he had fully committed to the Lannister cause and so made himself a useful tool.
Tywin rarely lets his emotions cloud his judgement.
On the dad stuff.....I feeeeeel you man! Hard to explain the "oh no" and "they're great" but so true :D
Idk why but your expressed feelings about Janos Slint felt more intense and deep than you’re expressed feelings on than the ending of the show or the fact the winds hasn’t come out yet. I didn’t realize it was that deep lol. Love to listen to it though man, glad you had a vacation and are back now.
I don't get Preston spending so much time downplaying Melisandre to the point of calling her a fraud. No doubt her chapter revealed that she'll take advantage of circumstance to claim credit for actions she didn't take (eagle bursting into flame for instance) and use illusions and flair to make something she discovered via her powers to be more mystical (the leeches were for show, but she did see the deaths of the kings). However, though she uses tricks and showmanship, she's not a fraud. She's long lived, can receive visions from the flame, can do glamour magic (why Stannis thought he was burning Mance Rayder), and can absord a man's essence to create a shadow assassin. She's powerful, but she doesn't fully understand how her magic or magic in general actually works.
does anyone else get the feeling like they are Travis Bickle sitting in an empty movie theater still holding out for a song of ice and fire to continue while watching these?
Sometimes I do worry someone will discover I listen to sample chapter analysis videos from 7 years ago nearly every night
@@TobeWilsonNetwork “The days go on and on... they don't end. All my life needed was a sense of someplace to go. “
Preston trying his best to be a father. Preston also excepting that he's now a Alexa who tells his off spring knowledge.
That's a good analogy. I imagine Alexa also breaks down when it's asked questions like "What is to have?.....What is not to have?.....What is to lose?....What is not to lose?"
Tyrion was manipulated by Varys in ACOK I think that was one of the main reason why he sent Slynt to the wall.
If Bloodraven is Craster's father, wouldn't that mean that baby Aemon does have king's blood?
It would mean that Monster has kings blood, Aemon Battleborn has kings blood from Mance. It would be a fun twist, since we don't know if Mance's blood has any powers while we do think that Targ blood does have some power. So Jon's baby switch actually left the more "powerful" blood with Mel.
Love that@@jonttopia
Did Preston ever make a theory about craster being bloodravens son? I remember David Lightbringer actually said that much of the repeated symbolism suggests that craster should be a ‘dragon person’ but never suggested how that can be the case @@jonttopia
@@umwha I think so? He had this long series about the genetics of Crastor and how Crastor could be a targaryan with a gene on a certain chromosome etc.
Not only all caps as shouting is a post 1980 phenomenon, but there were no caps per se in the Middle Ages. There were capitals, sure, but they marked the beginning of a chapter, the rest of the text was either in insular uncial or Carolingian minuscule (even the names).
Also, in the Renaissance, capitals were used in monumental text or titles (sometimes also to write important names in a text) imitating Roman capitals.
So it would have made little sense in such a parahistorical world, that Lyanna was writing in all caps. It would have meant "this is a monument" or "this is the beginning of the chapter".
Also, in the show we see that the letter is written incl childish handwriting... Doesn't Bear Island have a maester?
Not to mention that they spoke middle English and wrote more often in French or Latin, at least in England. I find the funny 'Mediaeval' English they use in fantasy novels and shows pretty laughable when you compare it to Chaucer's English or god forbid old English. It's like another language entirely.
@@nutyyyy Fantasy novels use Tolkien English, which in itself is a mix of Medieval idioms translated to something understandable to the early 20th Century English person, also taking Walter Scott and updated Shakespeare as references.
Westeros is not Europe
@@Caramelo23606 Westeros is pretty explicitally based on Medieval Europe, and Martin is clearly drawing from real history, sometimes outright copying it. Therefore it's safe to assume that all that which he doesn't say is different, is the same as in our Medieval history.
For example, Martin doesn't say horses have two stomachs or five brains or copper based blood instead of iron based. But we will all assume horses in ASOIAF are horses like ours. We will assume anything he hasn't changed is the same as today.
So, the history of typography will probably remain the same, especially because Martin himself hasn't developed it at all.
IMO: The only real reason I could think of for Jon attacking out the mutineers, would be because Gilly suggests it in an effort to save her family. Maybe Selyse or Mel commands it, maybe Jon goes out on his own volition (another reason for the watch to assassinate him). However Gilly is gone and most likely the mutineers have been wiped out by the advancing wildlings or Others.
Preston: *slowly losing his mind over Janos Slynt*
Me, whispering: there's just all of these conflicting principles...
Doesn't the Wall go underground as well though, which would presumably also block telepathic signals? Like the ice cells and the enormous cellars where food is stored and preserved.
I’ve never heard the notion that Shireens burning may be to wake dragons. If stannis had eggs then Melisandre would defiantly know.. but she does not think about it. …
Stone Dragons maybe?
@@trippinzombiez no stone dragons in the wall though
Isn’t Jon a dragon in stone, like a Targaryen in hiding. She’ll burn shireen to bring Jon back
Preston let me challenge you on the idea that Mel has random powers made up to serve the situation. The most significant power, the shadow babies, I think is probably the deeest lore wise. David Lightbringer had outlined the mirrored symbolism of Fire created Black shadow people and things related to ice being described as ‘white shadows’. The legend of a Nights Queen creating Others in some way implies that the same reproductive consciousness projecting magic has an ice / fire version and is likely fundamnetal in George’s origin of the others.
Preston, you state that George does not plan. Yet , in your theory videos , like Time traveling Bran, you assert George planned ahead so much in in the Bran plot line , about the sinkhole, the identity of the 3eyecrow etc. I think you make a great case, especially considering Martin has worked with these ideas in the past. But do you think he plans or not?
I feel like some merciful editor prevailed upon george to include the janos slynt thing just to throw us a bone after all the bleak shit, like "George, give them SOMETHING"
I just finished reading his post not even 20 minutes ago good timing
Mushroom says that Vermax laid a clutch of eggs at Winterfell. Stannis could come into possession of those eggs, if they do exist.
Melisandre probably saw some kind of vision of Stannis “awakening stone dragons” at the wall, not realizing the vision was more symbolic (like literally every other vision ever lmao) and Shireens greyscale (the stone dragon) will “awaken” as she burns and infect and kill Stannis’ army, or the wildlings, or the nights watch and add to the army of wights.
Can you do an episode about instances when George has purposefully left things open in the past (and how they got resolved later)?
thats an interesting idea
When Catelyn asks Brienne for her sword at the end of aCoK its done that way so we think she kills Jaime everything looks like that and that is how the book ends.
Preston should include Jon Snow chapters in the FanFic. They could all be Ghost chapters. Ghost at first being hunted. Then Ghost having dreams, connecting/sensing his brothers, then Ghost being found and captured by wildlings and allied black brothers. And then the sacrifice. All through wolf's eyes
Yeah that subtlety work is very noticeable in the two versions of A Beast for Norn if you own both Dreamsongs and Tuf Voyaging. The final published version it is hard to notice the telepathy, but in the earlier version it's like verbose lol. So I'm glad these older copies were found that's really cool! Thanks for the discussion lads 💜
preston really selling the family dream
You always mention Orell's eagel exploding because it crossed the wall barrier but Varamyr clearly says that he crossed it and saw castle black, he gives accurate details about the situation in castle black , that can't be speculation or espionage.
Did he say he crossed it? He said he went high and could see the other side, and knew what they had, but I don’t recall if he ever said specifically he flew over to the other side
@@chrisrubin6445 Castle black is built right up against the wall. The wall is 700ft tall and is too thick for anything to be flying on one side and see the base of the other side 🤷 . The eagle needs to cross over to see Castle Black
Has anyone ever suggested that it could just be a fire arrow?
@@umwha I think Varamyr remembers it being something from the inside burning him , so painfully it drove him mad for a while. It could be a fire arrow but I don't know , I think if it was then word would've gotten around the castle and nobody would believe Melissandra did it, which people seem to do, so unless she found a way to silence the guy who took the shot and any guys who saw it it can't be that.
@@cinematicbeauty2194 yeah absolutely not, 700 feet is less than nothing to an eagle, it could be miles above that and still see all of castle black from the north side of the wall
22:50 This is most of the Davos plot from SoS and a big part of CoK as well. Stannis is extremely reluctant to follow Melisandre's BS in general, he knows she's mostly full of shit and that even when she produces results they're weird and probably evil. He doesn't want to burn Edric Storm, but as time goes on and he gets more desperate his unwillingness goes down and down and down until he's about ready to do it. Davos can see that coming and so orchestrates his plot to smuggle Edric off Dragonstone, all while preparing to tell Stannis about the letter from Castle Black and convince him to go North.
They didn't go to the Wall specifically to wake dragons, they ended up there because of Davos trying to save Edric (while steering Stannis and Melisandre in a better direction that benefited the whole realm and therefore Stannis as its prospective king). Maybe the way it plays out from there in DwD is nonsensical, I only just reread SoS, but what they're talking about here is all fairly sound from a narrative logic standpoint.
I've skimmed so much folklore and other random potential influences of asoiaf that it's all a jumble in my head and I can't remember where anything is from, but I remember my ears perking up when hearing a line about dreams being sent by birds, or the lantern of fate being reflected off the moon. I know that's not helpful, but I am pretty certain there is at least stuff like that out there somewhere. It might even be from listening to stuff about "cosmic magic" in Elden Ring.
In the first book Tywin specifically makes a point of complaining to Tyrion that uplifting Janos Slynt was one of the big follies that Cercei and the rest committed. I always read it in a way that Tyrion was sort of doing what his father ordered while also shifting the power and influence in Kings Landing to himself from Cercei. He replaced Slynt with the iron hand guy who was loyal to him, and thus also to Lannisters. Just without lordship and Harrenhall.
The idea to execute Janos Slynt was suggested to George by a fan during a public reading.
It always baffled me. All the pieces were in place and so obvious, yet Martin couldn't put it together. Makes me think twice about all the theories people make.
an interesting thought is stone men have grayscale so in a way shireen is stone. perhaps “from stone” actually means “with/using shireen. like a pot is made from clay jon is reborn (remade) from stone (shireen)
44:44
I love the balance.
Jon is folowing duty.
Slint was following orders.
Jon is agent of his circumstances.
So is slint.
Yes the Janos Slynt is crazy.. I remember Sansa saying she hopes some gallant dude chops of Janos head..
Regarding why didn’t they burn Edric, I could have sworn it was because Stannis didn’t want to originally and when 2 out of the 3 kings died, Stannis said he’d consider it if the 3rd king died, but when balon dies, Davos smuggled Edric out
And regarding Mel not milking Edric I always thought it was because she saw the three deaths anyways and just took the credit via leeches to get street cred
23:00 Wasn't Stannis kinda testing Mel's powers? Because Edric's king's blood was leeched to kill the three kings still around in ASOS: the Red Wedding with Robb Stark (Stannis even jokes that it was more the spotted and wrinkled hand of Walder Frey that killed the Young Wolf than R'hllor's doing) and Balon supposedly falling from the bridge in castle Pyke and well, Joffrey dies later on; but before he could put Edric "to the torch" like he did with his wife's uncle and the statues of the Seven, Davos smuggles the bastard out.
Melisandre can stay some time without eating, it looks like, but yeah she is more mummer then magician.
About the mutineers, they are dead anyway. What are they gonna do when the Others come to collect their taxes from Craster?
Yeah, Stannis does seem to not really believe in Mel's power, or at least be sceptical. So it would make sense that he wants proof of the powers work before committing the worst taboo in Westeros.
Although Melisandre's power and how much Stannis cares/believes in them is really messy and inconsistent.
@@jonttopia I think his belief in Mel's power comes more from his own ability of seeing visions in the flames, like the battle at the Fist of the First Men
If shireen was burned to create a dragon would it’s name be ‘Shireenion?’
I’d love to see you guys try to logically work out that scene from the show where the Children of the Forest stab a man in the heart and turn him into a white walker. Its the one moment from the show that i keep asking myself ‘is this a GRRM thing that he said would happen, or DnD just make this happen?’. It makes less sense the more i think about it….
Preston loves parenting
Wasn't Edric Storm spared burning specifically because the good ol' Onion Knight argued against it and convinced Stannis *not* to, despite Mel's desire to do it, which led to the leeching instead? Then, fearing he actually will decided to burn Edric at some point, Davos and a group smuggle him to the Free Cities?
great timing thank you boys for the new video
Thanks for saying it Preston. I feel you on the kids thing. Love em, but damn!
Writing in all capitals or in big letters for emphasis is an ancient thing. In Paul's letter to the Galatians he writes along the lines: "See now with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hands". At that time Greek or any language for that matter, had no difference between capital and minuscule letters, as there were only capitals.
44:07 Jon absolutely knows what's up with Slynt. He was the commander of the Gold Cloaks and word spread about the confrontation in the throne room. Even if Jon doesn't know that Slynt switched sides, he for sure knows that he chose Cersei and Littlefinger over his dad.
Moreover, he executes Slynt because Slynt tried to have him killed in aSoS. And because Slynt was openly insubordinate to Jon. He can't let that slide.
This excuse about "just following orders" needs to die. It's a fallacy. George is all about personal choice.
I am not sure if Cold Hands *can* be Benjen. Bran doesn't recognize him and he says he's super old.
Honestly if 1 of my own uncles went on as an part-undead zombie in the Arctic I doubt it would take very long for them to become unrecognisable to me 🤔 but I agree with you, I think if coldhands were benjen there would've been more clues for it
@@Scott100W I don't think Cold Hands actually looks decomposed much
I've been playing with ChatGPT:
"Hodor is actually Quentyn Martell in a glamor"
Hodor, the gentle giant of Winterfell, was known for his simple-mindedness and his loyalty to the Starks. He was a beloved member of the Stark household, and his death was a tragic event in the War of the Five Kings.
But what if there was more to Hodor's story than what was known?
Rumors began to spread that Hodor was actually Quentyn Martell, a member of House Martell of Dorne, who had been put under a powerful glamor by a maester. Quentyn, it was said, had been sent to infiltrate Winterfell as a spy for his house, but something went wrong with the glamor and he was trapped in Hodor's form permanently.
The theory goes that Quentyn, as Hodor, was able to gather valuable information for House Martell, which would have been impossible to obtain otherwise. He was able to observe the Starks and their allies, and report back to his house.
This theory would also explain why Hodor seemed to have a deep connection to Bran Stark. As Bran began to develop his abilities as a warg and a greenseer, he may have been able to see through the glamor and recognize Quentyn's true identity.
It would also explain why Hodor was able to protect Bran so fiercely, as he was actually Quentyn, who had a mission to complete. The tragic moment in which Hodor had to hold the door, would have been Quentyn's sacrifice in order to protect Bran, the key to his mission.
However, this theory remains just a theory, as it was never confirmed in the books or the show. It is possible that Hodor was just a simple-minded stable boy, whose tragic fate was a result of circumstance.
The Lemoncake Master Plan
In a small bakery located in the heart of the city, a brilliant pastry chef named Lem Lemoncloak was quietly perfecting his latest creation. For years, Lem had been experimenting with different ingredients and techniques, determined to create the ultimate lemoncake.
He had started with the basics, using fresh lemons, butter, and sugar, but he soon realized that something was missing. He began to experiment with other flavors and textures, trying everything from lavender to ginger, and even adding a hint of smoked sea salt.
Finally, after years of experimentation, Lem had created the perfect lemoncake. It was moist and tangy, with a delicate crumb and a hint of sweetness. He knew that he had to share his creation with the world, and so he devised the Lemoncake Master Plan.
The plan was simple: Lem would open a small lemoncake shop and offer samples of his delicious cakes to anyone who walked in. He would also offer a special discount to anyone who purchased a whole cake.
Lem's shop quickly became a huge success. People came from all over the city to taste his lemoncakes, and word of his creations spread like wildfire. The shop was always packed with customers, and Lem was soon able to expand to other locations.
As the years passed, Lem's lemoncakes became famous around the world. His shop had become a destination for pastry lovers, and Lem was hailed as a pastry genius.
But despite his success, Lem never forgot the humble beginnings of his Lemoncake Master Plan. He continued to experiment with new flavors and ingredients, always determined to create the perfect lemoncake. And in the end, that was all that mattered to him: the pursuit of pastry perfection.
It is stated in the books that ghost is the largest of the direwolves and all the others defer to him. If it is true that the blood of kings can wake dragons from stone, and it is also true that jon is a dragon, then perhaps it is true that ghost must burn to bring jon back to life.
I don't remember where I saw this, but apparently Janos's execution was originally supposed to be done by hanging him from the Wall. George read this version at a convention at some point and it was the fans that pointed out that Jon, having learned his lessons from Ned, would want to do the justice himself. So afterwards George changed it to a beheading.
Could the "wake dragons from stone" thing with Stannis be that he is trying to fulfill a prophecy that was already fulfilled by Danny? So that's why it won't work, just like the Azor Ahai prophecy, he's trying to be the one to fulfill it but he can't because the prophecies don't talk about him
Ooooooooh, vocation, I wondered why so long since it has been 2 weeks.
With regard to waking stone dragons meaning "waking Jon". We do have Starks being associated with stone in the crypts. The stone dragon references Lyanna (now a stone face in the crypts) and Rhaegar (the dragon). Burning king's blood, aka Stannis, will force the lords of the North to support Jon (after their conspiracy being revealed) and thus awake the stone dragon. Also, Jon has a dream of his parents on the night Stannis dies. IT'S POETRY. STANNIS THE LORD OF LIGHT BURNS IN THE NIGHT CREATING A NIGHT'S KING A STONE DRAGON OF THE NORTH. 🐉
The Wall blocks WeirwoodNet WiFi, but you can still use cable connection?
the Janos Slynt storyline broke Preston lol
I want the next book to come out just so Jon can be a Dayne and his father is left ambiguous as either being Brandon or Eddard. Maybe Ashara is alive but she doesn't know.
I think Rhaegar being Jon's father is boring, but also his story is about the fact that it's not your parentage but what you choose to do that really matters. And also there are no dragon parallels with Jon and a lot of Dayne parallels but that's beside the point.
Lyanna is Jon's mother
Nah man. Chosen one all the way! The Prince that was promised!
So a well known and vocal atheist like George, would write a book about a religious prophecy about a savior, and have it come true? I have a feeling that George will pull the rug out from under us, with the entire Jon being the messianic chosen one thing.
@@transformersrevenge9 I'm just saying Lyanna is Jon's mother not that he is jesus reincarnated
I’m surprised you guys haven’t ever talked about the “Krakens are weirwood roots” theory
I could totally see Preston pushing that all sea dragons and krakens are just made of wood
lol Preston could never be an elementary school teacher 😅
I do think is very logical for Jon to think about Craster's keep because they were oath breakers and kinslayers, but then the logical think to do is realize it's a waste of resources and that the Others will get them, if Jon really considers that the wildings that refused to cross the wall are good as dead then this oathbreakers are too.
In regards to Melisandre's powers, is it possible that the Temple of R'hllor only recently regained magic abilities with the birth of Dany's dragons? Perhaps Melisandre, being much older than she appears to be, has been practicing these magic rites, traditions, etc of R'hllor her whole life and they only recently started working as described.
Having a toddler is like having a dementia patient except with like 8000x more energy...
Jacaerys's dragon laid eggs in Winterfell according to Mushroom
They should’ve kept “the girl presumes to shout at me” in IMO. Stannis king of comedy
Stannis having eggs is new to me. Was there any hint of this in the book?
In feast, Either in a Cersei or Jamie chapter, it is mentioned that there might be dragoneggs on dragonstone but that Stannis probebly sold them of. He might have kept them if there where any
Bran needs ghost to come north to get him out of the three eyed crow's cave. Bran wrote the pink letter confirmed! (This is all sarcasm)
Would you consider reversing the black and white in your background? Small change but i think it would benefit a lot of eyes
Y’all should check out The Green Bard’s vids on Rickon.
great commercial on why to think twice before having kids. :D
Benjen isn’t Coldhands the same way Catelyn isn’t Stoneheart
I’ve been looking forward to this
There is one reason why Jon would want to get the people at Craster's. Like Ned, Jon is kinda dumb, especially where honor is concerned. He may not exactly be the stupid green boy who wanted to go ranging with Benjin, but he hasn't fully exorcized the impulsive youth as is demonstrated by his fateful final speech at Castle Black.
One good thing is that it's possible all the show meh moments were things that grrm thought of and decided were hot garbage and gave up d&d to use if they want
Imagine Big P's kids hear this when they older.
Preston, if you went to the Cushing library, what topic/book would be the focus of your search?
Also, Kickstarter to send you to the Cushing library when?
Isn't it insane he was working on chapters for Dance (2011) in 2003/2004. What does that say for Winds? Jesus
What if stone faced Shireen is the dragon in the stone that must be awoken?
If trying to cross the wall while warging an animal results in exploding then the wildlings would definitely have learned this in the millennia they have been raiding the north. And at some point they would have mentioned in and Varamyr would never have been stupid enough to fly over. There must be some other explanation than flying over the wall = immolation.
Yeah, I've been a Preston stan since he started his "differences between GOT and ASOIAF" series, and that's pretty much the only thing were I'm sure he's wrong.
I see no problem with Mel throwing a fire spell at Orell... she's managed to birth a demon baby assassin, and showed Stannis actual visions of the battle of the fist of the first men, so it's not that far-fetched.
@@randallflagg3700 Indeed. And Varamyr has already used the eagle to get accurate estimation of how well equipped the Night's Watch is. So he was crossing over the wall throughout the battle. I've also just looked up the scene, and Jon sees the eagle burning in the eastern sky, not to the south where it would have been if it was crossing the wall. Preston does have a point that if Melinsendre could set things fire remotely then that's pretty impressive power. If you can set an eagle on fire you could set a person's head on fire. And when actually asked about it by Jon she gives something of an evasive answer. Still, her being responsible is still the most likely explanation as, like you said, it's not that beyond a demon shadow baby. And if there is some other explanation, it's definitely not a result of crossing the wall. If it were then George definitely would have had Jon see it in the southern sky and not eastern (which is the direction Stannis, and presumable Melisendre, is coming from).
Do you ever cook with your kids? Take at least 3 times as long, but it’s totally worth it.
I feel like Carmine is like one of those people that interviews George about the books when they only watched the show or never heard of asoiaf.
He's basically Jon Snow; he knows nothing.
I love when Preston changes his tone to “I’m so fucking done with George”
Being a dad is so fun but still the early ages can be rough
what about Kedge Whiteye being in cahoots with Alliser Thorne in the drafts? They are now both missing after ranging beyond the wall...
Preston Jacobs really does think he's the author of ASOIAF doesn't he? "George doesn't know, he purposefully left it open." At this point it isn't even hanging on to crackpot theories, it's a willful denial of reality. For Quentyn to be alive George would seriously have to retcon the fact we experienced him being roasted from his POV and saw the aftermath in excruciating detail. It would be the single worst decision in the book series. But Preston will insist on this idea but mock people for believing Mel has powers. As soon as we run into his theories in the fan version of Winds the entire thing is going to fall apart. Dude cannot separate his ego from the work.
Shadow baby is enough reason to believe she has powers. The debate should be if that's her own or just Rh'llor. The five kings dropping like flies could be attributed to Edric Storm's leeching or just coincidence. I stopped listening to the fanfic after his Alayne II. I actually wanted to contribute to it but, yeah I think he's just gonna force his theories into it.
honestly from the crastors keep stuff being in the show i kinna think D and D got an early draft of dance and never read the published version
it came out when they were making season 2 so maybe they didn't have time skimmed it or didn't read it at all once it was officially published and that's why that part is in the show.
they cut so many characters from the last 2 books so i could see them not having read it
25:44 IMO, the point of these prophecies is how people interpret them and respond to them. Whether they are actually real or not is irrelevant. It’s always about the heart in conflict.
Preston - I have a pair of 4 year old boys, I feel your parental pain.