I'd love to see a trophy truck as an invitational entry in the Dakar, and a T1+ in Dakar. Would be cool to watch, even if they aren't exactly comparable
@@RCmaniac667 put a bigger one? Let them refuel after the special? I don’t care, the car doesn’t need to be classified. Do it like Garage 56 at Le Mans, it’d be interesting enough to see the pace of it
Personally i prefer the Dakar Cars more just because i can still see the resemblance to its road counterpart more than a TT. Plus the mindset of "You're on your own" while being in the middle of the Desert trying to find your way through across hundreds upon hundreds of kilometers is just awesome. You got problems in the middle of the stage? Tough luck. You better try to fix it yourself or wait until the support car come around. It's probably one of the reasons i also love Endurance races like WEC/IMSA more than something like F1. It's the human & machine perseverance through long distances.
@dilligaf2818 They may both be off-road racer but the discipline itself is quite different. It's just a different kind of race with one is kind of a sprint while the other leans more on the endurance. Speaking of sounds, personally having multiple different types of engines producing different kind of sounds is also awesome. Again much like prototype endurance cars, having variety is the charm. If i wanted to have some true sprint rallying on multiple different surfaces then i got WRC for that.
Personally, I find the T1+ Car's from Dakar better. Because they need road approval, in addition to the FIA Rules. The Minimum weight is cool and interesting.
@@TruckerOsirisHow about a Class 1 buggy? It's lighter than both T1+ cars and trophy trucks. Although they haven't won the Baja 1000 overall since 1993. Funnily enough, the year they stopped winning is the year trophy trucks were born.
Man i love both types of racing the Dakar T1 is great in a more subtle realistic way. The Trophy Truck is just insane and watching one go by is like seeing a 90s F1 car in person, you just know you are looking at a mechanical monster.
Superb analysis as usual! I wonder if Loeb would have driven a Trophy Truck - would he just "fly" over that ditch and hadn't even noticed anything. Of course, with such weight and fuel consumption he would have stopped somewhere on the 1 stage though.
Yep, a trophy truck would have flew over it. Loeb, wouldn't need a trophy truck though, a Class 1 buggy would be enough since it can do the Baja 1000 without refueling and is lighter than even T1+ cars.
@@PseudoNo i mean they got the T1 buggies for that. Some buggies even won Dakar events multiple times before like the Mini for example. Since the T1+ class is formed, teams using T1 buggies do decrease since T1+ allows the same sized tyres as the buggies on top of having 4WD which are really beneficial around sand dunes.
Still, suspension in Baja is outrageous. With those absorber speeds. I wonder if T1 had "faster" shocks would it be as great as TT but with less weight.
Very nice comparison! Would also be interesting how a Dakar Car would perform in Baja or the other way around, if they could harmonize the rulebooks (like Garage 56 Nascar). I was surprised that you are that deep into Dakar and Rally Raid and I like those insights and your explanations very much! Anything like this regarding WRC and their constant changes in the rulebooks (e.g. removing the hybrid unit in 2025 while ceeping the hybrid-adapted body and frame the same)?
The difference in the following 2 rules, basically determine the main difference in design: Refuel distance and the max speed. The winner between these two designs will be determined by the terrain. Short and windy vs long and straight. The Dakar cars are more sophisticated, which I find interesting.
A class 1 buggy would be more suited to Dakar than a trophy truck since they don't need to refuel for the entire Baja 1000. They're lighter than both trophy trucks and T1+ cars. They have less power and suspension travel than trophy trucks but more than Dakar.
(Corrected by a few others, see comments below) Your graphics say the Trophy Truck is AWD, while it might be allowed by the rules it is not used due to engineering limitations of desired wheel travel vs CV operational angles. Secondly, you state that the engine is sometimes in the mid rear behind the driver, the ONLY successful TT that used this was the Ironman Stewart PPIM. This was also IRS, not solid rear axle, which is the current class rule for TT.
Thank you, excellent report. Although the TTs are quite different to the Dakar cars, they all look the same … spaceframe, flimsy bodywork, huge wheels and long susp travel and the only way to tell the difference between models is the car company logo painted on the grille. I’d still rather see the Dakar cars use at least the body-shell of production models.
Diesel Dakar T1+ cars were my favorite. Those did cover the 800km stage on 325L diesel, not 540L like the current petrol DakarT1 cars. It's a shame the FIA penalized diesels with ballast. Comparing the diesels to american cars, they have 4 times the range using the same amount of fuel.
It may be not as interesting, but I'd like to see how the trucks of rally raid racing have progressed through, from the early days of the Mercedes trucks to the purpose built Ivecos of the present day.
The bikes are allowed refueling, right? Is that only on liasons or during the special? They all seem to have around 32L tanks, and with the specials being 500km, that definitely seems like a stretch
Very interesting comparison! Now I'm wondering two things: 1. How do the bikes in Dakar get such a long range with no space for a much larger fuel tank? 2: How do Dakar full size trucks compare to BAJA trucks in terms of weight, power, fuel consumption?
Afaik, all competitive open class TT have a mid engine layout today. Rear wheel T1+ Dakar buggies are allowed to have more suspension travel and have some other goodies compared to the awd cars. It is a pity that they are not competitiv under the current Dakar reglement. A very good animation how a TT is built up mechanically: th-cam.com/video/_nR1-J676ao/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gBiiQH1I5ToOwTo_
If weight is a concern, a class 1 buggy would be good for you. They can do the Baja 1000 without refueling. They are lighter than both T1+ cars and trophy trucks.
Class 1 buggies have independent rear suspension. In fact most categories in the Baja 1000 have independent rear suspension. Only trophy trucks have live rear axles.
It's for weight distribution, B Sport explained it in the video. Putting the fuel tank in the middle was done before and is not as effective when gliding over whoops at high speed.
@@johncarl5505 I heard, doesn't mean it's the best or safe. It is truly moroning decision considering they bump the back of someone they need to overtake. The whole thing is really... not very professionally designed.
I'd love to see a trophy truck as an invitational entry in the Dakar, and a T1+ in Dakar. Would be cool to watch, even if they aren't exactly comparable
And what a missed opportunity from Saber to including the Trophy Truck as the DLC for the Dakar Desert Rally
Robby Gordon drove his Hummer H3 Trophy Truck in the Dakar for many years
What to do with a limited fuel tank?
@@RCmaniac667 put a bigger one? Let them refuel after the special? I don’t care, the car doesn’t need to be classified. Do it like Garage 56 at Le Mans, it’d be interesting enough to see the pace of it
Trophy trucks were once part of it but rules changed for some reason
I didn't know the differences between the cars and competitions were so big.
Great video and explanation.
i love the versitility of dakar. i grew up waiting for the start of the new year simply because its dakar time.
Personally i prefer the Dakar Cars more just because i can still see the resemblance to its road counterpart more than a TT.
Plus the mindset of "You're on your own" while being in the middle of the Desert trying to find your way through across hundreds upon hundreds of kilometers is just awesome. You got problems in the middle of the stage? Tough luck. You better try to fix it yourself or wait until the support car come around.
It's probably one of the reasons i also love Endurance races like WEC/IMSA more than something like F1.
It's the human & machine perseverance through long distances.
give me Trophy Truck any day such better racing...they sound awesome
@dilligaf2818 They may both be off-road racer but the discipline itself is quite different. It's just a different kind of race with one is kind of a sprint while the other leans more on the endurance.
Speaking of sounds, personally having multiple different types of engines producing different kind of sounds is also awesome. Again much like prototype endurance cars, having variety is the charm.
If i wanted to have some true sprint rallying on multiple different surfaces then i got WRC for that.
Trophy trucks are more raw in their design, but I prefer the technical sophistication of T1+ vehicles.
Personally, I find the T1+ Car's from Dakar better. Because they need road approval, in addition to the FIA Rules.
The Minimum weight is cool and interesting.
@@TruckerOsirisHow about a Class 1 buggy? It's lighter than both T1+ cars and trophy trucks. Although they haven't won the Baja 1000 overall since 1993. Funnily enough, the year they stopped winning is the year trophy trucks were born.
@@johncarl5505 Why they stopped winning?
@@RCmaniac667Not enough suspension travel.
Man i love both types of racing the Dakar T1 is great in a more subtle realistic way.
The Trophy Truck is just insane and watching one go by is like seeing a 90s F1 car in person, you just know you are looking at a mechanical monster.
It's basically the off-road equivalent of an F1 & Hypercar/GTP.
One is optimized for speed, the other is for endurance & reliability.
i like the unlimited approach of the baja trucks more, because they can use the full amount of tech and knowledge they have to tackle their terrain
Basically, TT gonna leave T1+ in the dust, but they not gonna lasts the entire Dakar stage.
Superb analysis as usual! I wonder if Loeb would have driven a Trophy Truck - would he just "fly" over that ditch and hadn't even noticed anything. Of course, with such weight and fuel consumption he would have stopped somewhere on the 1 stage though.
Yep, a trophy truck would have flew over it. Loeb, wouldn't need a trophy truck though, a Class 1 buggy would be enough since it can do the Baja 1000 without refueling and is lighter than even T1+ cars.
Ok so now we need an episode on Class 1 buggies vs the T1 classes😅@@johncarl5505
@@PseudoNo i mean they got the T1 buggies for that. Some buggies even won Dakar events multiple times before like the Mini for example.
Since the T1+ class is formed, teams using T1 buggies do decrease since T1+ allows the same sized tyres as the buggies on top of having 4WD which are really beneficial around sand dunes.
isn't it a spec lighter class in Baja?
Trophy trucks have more variety, I think.
@@johncarl5505
Still, suspension in Baja is outrageous. With those absorber speeds. I wonder if T1 had "faster" shocks would it be as great as TT but with less weight.
Very nice comparison! Would also be interesting how a Dakar Car would perform in Baja or the other way around, if they could harmonize the rulebooks (like Garage 56 Nascar).
I was surprised that you are that deep into Dakar and Rally Raid and I like those insights and your explanations very much! Anything like this regarding WRC and their constant changes in the rulebooks (e.g. removing the hybrid unit in 2025 while ceeping the hybrid-adapted body and frame the same)?
Some Dakar cars did the Baja
man I gotta go with the trophy truck
The difference in the following 2 rules, basically determine the main difference in design: Refuel distance and the max speed. The winner between these two designs will be determined by the terrain. Short and windy vs long and straight. The Dakar cars are more sophisticated, which I find interesting.
A class 1 buggy would be more suited to Dakar than a trophy truck since they don't need to refuel for the entire Baja 1000. They're lighter than both trophy trucks and T1+ cars. They have less power and suspension travel than trophy trucks but more than Dakar.
Very nice comparison! Thanks for great content again! 🙏🏁
Trophy Trucks are just badass.
Had the same question when following Dakar days ago. Thanks for the video!
(Corrected by a few others, see comments below) Your graphics say the Trophy Truck is AWD, while it might be allowed by the rules it is not used due to engineering limitations of desired wheel travel vs CV operational angles. Secondly, you state that the engine is sometimes in the mid rear behind the driver, the ONLY successful TT that used this was the Ironman Stewart PPIM. This was also IRS, not solid rear axle, which is the current class rule for TT.
Most of the top trucks are AWD nowadays including last years winner.
@@Shiryas they use a portal hub for the front drive shaft for the angle and clearance. The reverse mid mounted engine is back too. He is correct.
@@rybuds47 portal axles on the front wheels … that’s interesting.
Do Unimogs have that too, or just for the rears?
All the winning trucks are mason Motorsports AWD mid engine trucks
@ Thank you very much for the information
Trophy would leave the T1 in the dust across any terrain, and i can't ignore that. It gets my vote
Thank you, excellent report.
Although the TTs are quite different to the Dakar cars, they all look the same … spaceframe, flimsy bodywork, huge wheels and long susp travel and the only way to tell the difference between models is the car company logo painted on the grille.
I’d still rather see the Dakar cars use at least the body-shell of production models.
It's convergence evolution. Everyone will turn to the most effective design.
Very interesting comparison, thanks!
Diesel Dakar T1+ cars were my favorite. Those did cover the 800km stage on 325L diesel, not 540L like the current petrol DakarT1 cars. It's a shame the FIA penalized diesels with ballast. Comparing the diesels to american cars, they have 4 times the range using the same amount of fuel.
I'd love to see both classes pitted against each other. Maybe for the Desafío Ruta 40?
Please also do a detail vedio on ssv and challenger category in dakar and trucks also.
I was going to ask for same.
It may be not as interesting, but I'd like to see how the trucks of rally raid racing have progressed through, from the early days of the Mercedes trucks to the purpose built Ivecos of the present day.
Had Seth Quintero ever participated in the Baja 1000?
The bikes are allowed refueling, right? Is that only on liasons or during the special? They all seem to have around 32L tanks, and with the specials being 500km, that definitely seems like a stretch
Imagine seeing a Baja truck at Dakar like a Garage-56
Very interesting comparison! Now I'm wondering two things: 1. How do the bikes in Dakar get such a long range with no space for a much larger fuel tank? 2: How do Dakar full size trucks compare to BAJA trucks in terms of weight, power, fuel consumption?
The bikes refuel more frequently
Dakar bikes usually have around 40L of fuel across three in-built tanks.
----
He already showed the comparisons in the video
Rally raid motorcycles have 3 tanks
Afaik, all competitive open class TT have a mid engine layout today. Rear wheel T1+ Dakar buggies are allowed to have more suspension travel and have some other goodies compared to the awd cars. It is a pity that they are not competitiv under the current Dakar reglement.
A very good animation how a TT is built up mechanically: th-cam.com/video/_nR1-J676ao/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gBiiQH1I5ToOwTo_
Dakar cars are supposed to be road legal as well right?
Baja is more powerful but it's negated by its weight. Dunno, probably i will pick Dakar if environment is alright for it
If weight is a concern, a class 1 buggy would be good for you. They can do the Baja 1000 without refueling. They are lighter than both T1+ cars and trophy trucks.
Cheers 👍💪✌
F1 vs Indy all over again
F1 has very strict regulations while Indy is a spec series. Dakar has more open regulations than F1, while the Baja 1000 has almost no regulations.
So Baja Trophy Trucks are Sprinters and Dakar T1's are Marathon Runners. Got it.
Trophy trucks will outperform T1+ cars.
So I guess the main question is, if you wanted to go off road racing, would you race Dakar or would you race da motorcycle? 🤭
Only americans drive cars with live rear axles.
The rest of the developed world moved on decades ago, with performance cars.
Still, it's more durable when compared to independent suspensions. Also, better load capacity.
Class 1 buggies have independent rear suspension. In fact most categories in the Baja 1000 have independent rear suspension. Only trophy trucks have live rear axles.
@mahiru20ten indeed. Perfect for a horse and cart.....and for an American racing car 🤣
No wonder americans are so rubbish at F1 !!!
Putting the fuel cell at the back? Trophy Trucks are not very sophisticated, more like brutes.
It's for weight distribution, B Sport explained it in the video. Putting the fuel tank in the middle was done before and is not as effective when gliding over whoops at high speed.
@@johncarl5505 I heard, doesn't mean it's the best or safe. It is truly moroning decision considering they bump the back of someone they need to overtake. The whole thing is really... not very professionally designed.
@@dafnik8925It's protected by a tube frame rear bumper, kevlar panels and tires. No one has ever died from a trophy truck fuel tank.
Meine Katze schaute mich an, als wollte sie sagen: "Lach nur, Mann, das ist meine Show!🍓