Lore Breakdown : The Religion of the Borg
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2018
- Whats up Lore Masters,
Let's take a look at the Borg and if they have a religion when it comes to the Omega Molecule. I don't expect a lot of you guys shall agree - but I look forward to your guys thoughts!
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Knock Knock Knock
"Excuse me, Sentient. Have you heard of our Lord and Savior, The Omega Molecule?
Maybe that is what their "you will be assimilated speech" is suppose to be--and the Universal Translator just completely messed it up?
Katrina Payne absolutely resistance is futile a religion that's a very stauch religion. There are examples of that in our world believe like we do or suffer and die only the borg are believe or suffer then die or suffer then die as a human and be reborn as one of us (worse than death?).
Why no, I am a firm believer in the Omnissiah.
The Geth deify the Reapers in Mass Effect. It's not outlandish to consider the Borg religious either. A slavish mentality toward assimilation into the whole as a means of attaining the perfection that only that specific religion could possibly provide is a very, very, very religious concept.
@@kabob0077 All hail the Man Emperor of Mankind! He is far superior to any 'god' because he is the penical of human evolution. Also have you seen the 'gods' they either want to kill us or fuck with us or fuck us.
Thanks so much for the #TheSojourn Shoutout man! Really means a lot. :)
Spacedock
You should give Lore and Anti-Trekker voice roles :)
Spacedock Alfabusa's influence is spreading ! MORE MOTION STILLS ! IT SPREAD TO BFGR AND NOW HERE !
When is it supposed to come out on youtube?
Yeah, but seriously though, the Voyager did terrible things, some People really see them as kinda evil, or rather, crazy.
They DID victimize the Borg, were racist against Species 8472, they changed entire Timelines and therefore wiped out Generations just because they couldnt comprehend the loss of some dozen people, and so on and so on.
And Starfleet made Janeway Captain - laughable.
I literally got recommended this channel because I watched spacedock first lol.
Perhaps during assimilation the mind undergoes a conditioning process to suppress individualism? With Hugh they weren’t expecting him to be an individual, since he was already Borg, and thus made the mistake of allowing this experience into the collective.
Yea, I've heard that theorized, that has quite a bit of merit to it
Sent a torpedo right up their Unimatrix...
It says nothing about secularism or atheism but it says a lot about how people see secularism and atheism
That's fair
"Human language... so illogical - you think in such literal terms."
Yeah, but seriously though, the Voyager did terrible things, some People really see them as kinda evil, or rather, crazy.
They DID victimize the Borg, were racist against Species 8472, they changed entire Timelines and therefore wiped out Generations just because they couldnt comprehend the loss of some dozen people, and so on and so on.
And Starfleet made Janeway Captain - laughable.
@@slevinchannel7589 Maybe the reason she is later an Admiral is so Starfleet could put her behind a desk and keep her out of trouble.
I can never figure out if Lore Reloaded loves star trek or hates it the way he constantly brings up inconsistencies
That's the magic of it
Shortcomings. Budget restrictions. Suits.
Labor of love of the inconsistencies
There is no love without the hate. And the way he is hating means he is desperatly in love with trek.
Being a fan of something does not mean being blind to it's flaws. I love Star Trek in general, but I have a passionate disdain for Voyager which buggered with continuity (both Trek wide and within itself, as exemplified here) more than any other Trek show ever has.
Not even Enterprise screwed with shit as much as Voyager did and Discovery comes nowhere near close, since it has so far largely avoided established lore and is forging it's own path (the two exceptions being the visual update, which doesn't bother me, and the Klingon overhaul, which I would have preferred not happen but at the same time isn't a game changer as these ones integrate all the previous versions, which were all distinct and practically separate species).
Voyager has a handful of great episodes - I love Living Witness - but overall it is the worst Trek, usually because of dumb shit like ruining the Borg, internal inconsistencies (hello never ending shuttles and torpedoes) and only two likeable characters on the whole show - Seven and the Doctor.
7 of 9 is a religion
We all start off as 1 of 3, and work our way to that!
I have worshiped Seven since the first moment I saw here
OUR TRUE GOD IS SPOCK
@@epsilon7707 Why does god need a starship?
@@Excalibur01 10/10 movie paraphrase!
Makes sense to me that the Klingons were researching Omega, and that it what causes the destruction of Praxis!
That research was undermined by weak federation interference. All hail the empire Qapla’
I'd actually like to see Picard pontificating to the Borg on Religion... he criticises them to true Star Fleet fashion... not for genociding trillions (or a few billion... but that's just nit-picking😆) but for believing in "superstitious dark age nonsense" which in the Federation is a far greater crime...
I'd crowd fund a voice over for it :p
Lore Reloaded
Brent Spiner would be an excellent candidate.
Honestly... Picard run as a Star Fleet Captain has not aged well... and we are now at the point where Kirk is easily considered in higher regard... even by people who do not much care for Kirk.
The people who use to prefer Picard have moved to Sisko... and anybody who'd have liked Kirk has generally moved to either David Hasselhoff or Janeway... depending on what kind of Kirk fan they are.
... and before anybody tries to claim David Hasselhoff is not a proper Star Fleet Captain... just... think about how any argument like that would go... and just quietly agree with his position as Star Fleet Captain, and try to politely change the subject to something else.
The problem is that Anything can become a god or Religion to someone, Be it the prime Derivative or a known god, or TV, It is what you place your trust in, or faith if you will, even atheists place their trust in something like Science, or Humanity and that becomes their god, Most even use religious like language, just replace whatever they are talking about with the word god and it is the same language. But the writers of ST and most TV do not have an understanding of religion as a whole much less Christianity and as such treat faith like a joke, without even the thought of what if I am wrong, which most believers do have to deal with at times. A crisis of Faith never shows up for the atheists for they are true believers and blind in that they never question it, while faithfull people often question their faith and grow in it as they work out the questions. Some questions you have to trust will have answers that will come someday, even if not in this life. That is were Faith/trust comes in, it is not blind, believers have to trust their God and follow his teaching, and at times even question him. Historically you can see this in the Bible were heroes of the faith DO question GOD and sometimes get answers that maybe be uncomfortable to hear and at other times confort and sometimes no answer at all.
It's a good hypothesis, it seems the Borg worship perfection. An ideal to aspire to be better then they are, so all consuming they are consuming a galaxy to pursue this goal. I don't think it's what the original Borg had in mind. But we all know the Borg have changed as new writers come along.
Says "In the episode the omega molecule"
Next inserts the screen with "The omega directive" xD
Indeed
But still, awesome video and a perspective I haven't thought about yet.
Brother, this was a really interesting! Never even considered all these elements of assimilated species becoming distilled in the hivemind.
Glad I could inspire thought :)
The ultimate melting pot.
I never really thought about the Borg's obsession with the Omega particle and perfection to be particularly religious... But I get what you're saying
Ever since I was a teen, the Borg sounded like a form of radical fundamentalist. They absorb all the knowledge and whatever of the people they assimilate while overwriting who they are to be Borg and destroying those who they cannot assimilate. I'm in my 40s now and that perspective never changed. Yeah, they are a type of religious... radical fundamentalist types.
@@BizlaC Without conceding, I say your point is just as valid. Kudos, bro!
I quite agree on this one. TNG/DS9 was always a lot more hesitant than TOS to call out the flaws of religion, but one has to admit the slight of hand (if intentional) that VOY used regarding the Borg.
I'd say that "expectations" was the key to why the BORG were so strongly effected by Hugh's return.
When assimilating a new species they expect to deal with various conditions of those their assimilating, but with Hugh they had no unusual expectations to be considered, thus their system was corrupted.
It was slowly at first, then grew, finally overwhelmed, similar to Geordie's planed virus.
*good. analysis.* gr8 ship dude. - JC
i used to be an atheist then i realized we live in a simulation and the admin is god
So praise the admin for he gave us unlife.
You are discussing simultaneousely one of the best things about the borg and one of the worst things about them in my opinion in this video. I have said before that I find the concept of the Borg Queen... oxymoronic. Actually, scrap the "oxy" part. The thing is, when we were introduced to the Borg, they were almost like a force of nature; an enormous, amorphous collection of minds without a nucleus, without a hierarchy, all collectively driven to one, then still mysterious, goal with an almost religious zeal. That, to me, was terrifying. Adding a nucleus, a queen, removes a lot of that terror. Where before, the Borg were one massive mind, making decisions collectively, now it seems there is only one relatively small mind that matters, and the rest is merely being controlled instead of acting like a collective. Still scary, but to a lesser degree.
On an unrelated note, do you recall that bit from _Fiddler on the Roof_ in which the man is explaining how it is tradition in Anatevka to always wear a hat and a prayer shawl, and then goes "You may ask, how did this tradition get started? I'll tell you. [pause] I don't know."
That line f***ing freaks me out!
Love the spacedock bit
Throwing this out there. Religion comes from certain set of beliefs that creates tradition, ceremony and dogma. Faith itself is the simple act of believing. Faith can take on many forms like believing your children will succeed in things or that character in that show has the best plot armor. Faith can lead to religion and even more so when it is the nationalized. Many people against religion love to show the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christtianisty and Islam) and all their flaws. The reason why these religions are the bane of everything stems to all of them being a religion and government somewhere at sometime. When politics and religion mix then you all sorts of uncomfortable moments. The Borg and the omega particle are exactly this. Upon review of the episode itself, Seven is actually pretty irrational in describing why the molecule IS perfection and reacts to Janeway and crew like a religious fanatic would in a logical situation. The symbolism in that episode really concludes in a great note for me as it is clearly a faith trip and faith, not religion, is a major human thing. This was the most important step in Seven going full human again to me. Humanity and even the events of all of Star Trek are based in hope and faith that we get shit in gear and go to the stars. But maybe that is my faith talking. I enjoyed this video Lore Reloaded.
The Borg need to Focus on a New Religion. Like Focus on 7 of 9 in that Starfleet Cat Suit!!!!
I completely agree with your analysis. Something I too noticed but friends of mine who are Trek fans don't get. I daresay it adds a subtle depth to the Borg. A sort of connection to their biological roots, their "humanity". That they have sacrificed upon the altar of technology.
Religions aren't bad. The problem are the believers.
And human sacrifices... And Cuting every tree in your island... And...
That's a quote somewhere
Lore Reloaded yeah? I don't remember. Star Gate SG1 maybe?
Wish the Ori were a bit less cookie-cutter. Just on season 10 now...
Have you ever done a lore breakdown on the U.S.S. Enterprise F (odyssey class) from STO? I believe they later upgraded it to a Yorktown class.
Interesting.
what happened to the video
where you said
" just don't hurt my family "
should still be there?
It would see your end speech reflects well that the Borg are indeed the perfect foil of the Federation. They seek out new life and new civilations. To bring in new ideas. But where Starfleet is at it's core a secular organization dedicated to a delightful and undervalued quest Simple Curiosity. They want to know and experience.
The Borg, religiously seek out perfection. It makes a certain dramatic sense that the race of cyborgs are actually the most devout. It also speaks dangers of forced religious conversion. Frankly this metaphor was handled suprisingly deftly from a setting notorious for having 'lesson' plotlines.
The case can be made that any and EVERY religion has the potential to "go bad" as it were. This doesn't mean to say that every person who is religious is bad, but that the religion in and of itself can be hijacked to serve purposes that would go counter to the base tenants of the religion... or is driven by fanaticism taken to the point where anything that is counter to the religion's (or it's leader) doctrine is either ignored or proclaimed to be false.
Take the story and legacy of Jim Jones, for example. A lot of his actions were "religious" in nature, but he took it to the point where people were separated from their families and when people tried to leave his compound in South America, Jones applied force to keep people there and then turned to mass suicide when the law began to catch up with him.
wasnt there a Voyager episode in regards to species 8472 as to why they couldnt develop a weapon against them like the Federation did....and it was because the borg were unable to research by observing or something like that, they were only able to learn by assimilating..and since they couldnt do that...they couldnt fight back
Yea..That's the joke...that's why its inconsistent
I have a thought about the assimilation process, why assimilating people like Picard and other starfleet officers doesn't generate chaos. The borg are like a well oiled machine or computer, when they "Install a new program" (Assimilate someone and gain their knowledge) They probably enforce strict blocks and lock downs on the neural relays that link them to the rest of the hive to prevent their individuality from flooding them. Perhaps even using their advanced technology to suppress those parts of the brain. (Explaining Unimatrix 0, could be a bi-product of this process, the suppressed part of the brain fighting back during regeneration, a natural response from the brain on suppressed thoughts.) However when a drone who is already assimilated gets separated temporally (Like Hugh, or even Seven during Scorpion when she loses connection only to regain it after they leave fluidic space) The blocks and lockdowns are probably lifted, the borg would assume they are still 'indoctrinated' or have that part of their brain suppressed, not taking into account that it's possible to return individualism to a drone with all of the conditioning they put them through.
Consider, when a drone assimilates data from a computer (Like tapping into the computers on the Enterprise) This data starts to propagate through the collective immediately. The same as when the queen assimilates someone, higher priority level in the chain of command. When we see them assimilate a new drone however it generally takes time and they are put through various stages before they really are tasked with assimilating information. New drones don't immediately propagate the information into the collective, it needs to be sorted. (Explaining some of the plotholes in Enterprise's Regeneration where the borg should be able to adapt to the NX era tech easily but can't because the two drones onboard were freshly assimilated)
So the return of Hugh would cause a cascade, the individuality in Hugh was unexpected, as far as they knew he had no outside contact with anyone, no security would take place and his individuality would suddenly propagate in the ship's hive mind, ultimately resulting in them getting cut off from the collective via some sort of security/safety feature to prevent this from spreading even further. It would also explain why in the episode with 7 of 9 and the crashed sphere, why the drones when disconnected from the hive mind function almost like normal people as opposed to drones, with their own thoughts and minds. Individuality probably does exist to some extend in the borg collective to allow for problem solving but it's highly suppressed, once you disconnect however the effects of the suppression of the entire collective would start to fade away as you no longer have millions of voices saying you have to act a certain way, your individuality becomes stronger and since you already have 'thought clearance' in the collective hive mind, your individuality would spread until stopped via disconnect. But that's just my thoughts, it would also explain why the borg don't assimilate lesser species unless its necessary as their primitive thoughts would corrupt the immediate hive mind on the ship that assimilated that being.
You make some good points, though the queen isn't an individual - she's more like an Avatar and mouthpiece, a central processor for the Borg. When she says in First Contact, "I am the Borg," that's what that literally means.
As for Hugh's individuality infecting a cube, the only way that makes sense is that when fresh drones are made, their individuality is destroyed or disabled. I think until a certain point between TNG and Voyager the collective didn't run checks to see if individuality had reformed in existing drones. That seems like a sloppy oversight, but it may be that it was never needed before; the existence of Hugh may have been the first time such a thing ever happened, which created an awareness of the need to run such checks afterwards.
We see her interact with the Borg in Voyager who say "We obey" to her commands
On the episode i'm sure they refered to it as the omega particle. As a matter of fact I believe the Borg designation is particle 001.
No, it's called the omega molecule. It shoots out particles if it is destroyed.
*intentionally written... excuse my typo.
I thought I give my insight regarding religion when it comes to the Borg.
First of the concept of secular is this by definiton:
"denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis."
With that being said, many believe that since the Borg are a Collective, essentially that would mean that they are secular meaning no spirituality, or not having any activity relating to faith or greater vision to a cause.
YET; that is highly untrue. Perfection itself can been seen as a form of religion and the idea of assimilation as a crusade if you will. The ideal that "all" lifeforms are imperfect, and chaotic of any form of unity or even purpose if you will? That in turn causes the Borg to seek unifying all life under a singular binary harmonious song. "Hint", on the "singular binary harmonious song". Because of this statement, it fits well with the overall goal or ambition of the Borg. All life cataloged, designated, those species assimilated to be understood. This puts the Borg itself into a, "clergy of computations" creating the central core of the Borg itself.
After all the Borg are cybernetic, and the constant refinement of assimilation is their ultimate goal of perfection. This would be why the Omega Particle would be in their eyes the Holy Grail to their goals of perfection. Not from a scripture, or philosophical point of view? But instead from a "mathematical and algorithm" point of view. The Borg being organic and machine operating from a swarm like collective operate as many beings churned into a single entity. Think of it like many computers networked together to become the ultimate collection of knowledge and linked as a singular voice.
That in a nutshell is the Borg! So being religious is out of the question? Definitely not! But to understand their level of thinking would take one to look into their point of view from quantum physics, and also mathematics point of view as well.
So before the "supposed" Trekker fans, not Trekkies LOLZ! Start spitting that there is NO way the Borg could have a religion think again!
Remember Unimatrix Zero? YUP Google that shit you supposed Trek fans. Suck it! >XD
How about a detailed look at the enterprise G?
Um Lore Reloaded, wouldn't a good reason we saw an impact on the brog ship with Hugh is that unlike others assimilated, he was borg while being turned into a drone. Specifically, he had a fully functional borg neural transceiver that was just turned on and transmitted individuality before he lost it, while the others lost it before they were fully linked to the collective.
I actually said that in the episode, that this was a possibility.
You did, I think I must have missed it. You kind of lay it on thick with your sarcasm it must slipt pass. Regradless, good job and very intersting take on sometihng I didn't think of but in hinsight should have.
I would assume the Borg's concept of Religion is very similar to Unitology of the Dead Space Universe. Or the Zerg of the Starcraft Universe.
I've always wondered about that after that episode... it does lead one to believe that they are "religious" in one form or another
Same with me
The Omega Particle in our timeline/universe could actually be The God Particle.... so it looks like we are on the assimilation list!
or perhaps...
We are the Borg. Lower your shields and prepare to be assimilated. Your technology and biology will added to the Collective. Side note, have you heard of the Omega Particle? Perfection in Unity.
The Borg are in the details 👍👌
I'm not following. You're suggesting that it "could be" the Higgs Boson?
Yeah that, whatever you want to call it.
damn good
The Borg have a concept of perfection, of an objective standard that they believe they would benefit from achieving.
That in and of itself is a religious belief.
Organizations whose members have diverse beliefs and values tend to thrives, because extremists are either redirected toward a common goal or kicked out.
Carl Sagan observed that "religious" people are not, in general, more ignorant, more superstitious, or less scientifically literate than others, but do tend to be more open-minded. There absolutely are extremists in real life like Winn Adami who will respond to anything that disagrees with their interpretation with 'no, you're wrong and should be punished', but there are far more who respond with 'okay, but what if', and actively seek out some way to reconcile the new information with their beliefs.
Wasn't Hugh from voyager? The result of nanoprobes and the mobile emitter?
No ..hugh is from tng.. I forget the name of the future Borg
Lore Reloaded just found it. His name was One. You have my apologies.
you talked about religion on the internet without going fedoraneckbeard/zealot mode. well done
A hard thing to do indeed
quite
I picked this old episode to comment I don’t know if you get updates on it but I think a good episode series to investigate would be Q and Guinan I think they where warned about the borg and took no heed to it and they fell because of it.
this theory makes a lot of sense. you can use a religion as a glue for a society or a culture.
This needs to be part of the burn in discovery
Very simple, is your every action is to reach a general goal, that by definition cannot be reached, you have an ideology. Following an Ideology exclusive to every other ideology is religion itself. Usually that ideology is very complex and debatable since it is too complex and less then ideally defined (in books written in languages that currently not in true usage), but sometimes it can be as simple as reaching perfection, without actually truly defining what is perfection.
I don’t think the formation of a hierarchy with the Queen at the top is necessarily indicative of religion. I see it as a way of organizing the vast collective consciousness of the Borg since they are not capable of being completely decentralized while maintaining adequate cohesion. There needs to be something which houses the consciousness and act like a nerve center, giving the collective structure and direction.
Someone needs to use that storytelling tech to do "The Wheel of Time"
indeed
I didn't know that Voyager had an episode called "The Omega Molecule" and "The Omega Directive"
The Borg faced utter Annihilation at the hands of Species 8472
They HAD to form an alliance with Janeway
But the Borg are single minded in thier search for perfection and that is at the core of everything they are and do and say
As 3rd of 5 said : We assimilate species then we know everything about them
There is still much we don't know about the Borg , the Omega Molecule and the Vinculum are just 2 of hundreds of mysteries
I can solve this problem about if the Borg are "religious". I don't think Seven of Nine was speaking LITERALLY religious, in that she subscribes to a religion with a diety, and dogma. She was using it in a more colloquial sense, and allegory. Its been awhile since I've seen the episode, but I think she even made that clear she was being allegorical, not literally the Omega molecule is a god to me. The Higgs Boson is sometimes referred to as the "god particle" that doesn't mean anyone things theres a little anthropomorphic magical genie inside it.
You should check out the Destiny series of books that deals with the Omega molecule and the Borg and other races
Yea, I have to find a copy
And that Voyager novel with Q2 and the Omega continuum...
Well the Borg do follow logic as a religion.
Like Vulcans?
Logic is just a way to make mistakes with confidence.
no Vucans have restraint borg do not i meant logic to its illogical extreme.
Yet the entirety of the Borg's motives are highly illogical. Protection is not possible to objectively obtain and therefore is illogical.
I don't mind the idea that the borg can/would do independent research outside of assimilation. They would however be hilariously bad at it though. They would be mired by the worst case of confirmation bias the universe has ever seen. So I could get behind them attempting research but again not really getting anywhere. That is why we consistently see emancipated drones (Picard, Seven, Hugh, ext...) on numerous occasions out think the collective.
the borg may view the omega molecule like how the Asurans from Stargate viewed ascending. if the borg could understand and harness the omega molecules they would " ascend" to a higher plane of existence. in stargates case that was literally true, while it may not be in Star Trek, it would serve in a similar fashion. less of a religion but an ultimate goal. i would also like to draw a comparison between Starfleet and the Borg, the Federation started on a small nothing planet and then rose to become the most powerful entity in a few quadrants, making thousand year leaps in technology, understanding and improving the technology then dispersing it among its peoples for the greater good. lets not forget that most Starfleet technology was given to them by the Vulcans and then incrementally improved by humans and human alien alliances, including things like Voyager. the Borg do the same thing the core difference being Starfleet celebrates the individuality of every new race and the Borg completely wipe that individuality out. Starfleet says, "stay the same. just give us whats best about you, and we will give you whats best of us"
hm. it depends exactly how we define religion.
if you take the broadest approach, that a religion is a belief system that informs one's purpose, all sentient beings are religious. (even nihilists who claim to believe in nothing.) and the borg are certainly religious in that sense. they definitely have a purpose, and they seem to follow certain tenets of it as well.
Honestly, Voyager ruined the Borg. When they allied with Voyager it completely shit on what they were and what made them so terrifying. They cannot be reasoned with.
That's me in the corner. That's me in the spotlight.
#superstar ?
trying to keep my eye on you...
Losing your religion?
"A religion is a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say, things set apart and forbidden - beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a Church, all those who adhere to them." -Durkheim.
how about religion on nod and whitemask
I see what you mean. The Borg posses a cult mentality. I honestly think that the Borg are representative of the herd mentality in society and how technology has taken over most aspects of life
The Borg are the pursuit of perfection, equality, advanced technology, and immortality.
They assume it needs to be secular b/c they have a ahistorical view of progress, and associate tech advancement with secularism and less religiosity when even a cursory look at history (which as a historian I have more than cursory) disproves that notion by a long shot.
Now that you mention it Lore... Given TNG’s anti religion tendencies I wonder if the Borg weren’t I the tionally written to represent religion. Particularly the negative and destructive impact it has historically had and the way humans have always ventured out to “convert” everyone in sight to their religion etc...
Very interesting video.
A pursuit of perfection requires religiosity? Well, now I have to mistrust everything you've ever said...
Isn't it omega particle not molecule?
It's a molecule that when explodes spreads particles
I think Lore Reloaded has a bit of an equivocation going on here, using the word "Religion" where it might be better to use the broader word "Ideology". All Religions have and are deeply linked to Ideology, but not all Ideologies are Religions. The Borg are very clearly Non-Theistic, and Theism (the belief in a higher being or entity/power) is what most people associate with Religion. Most people aren't even aware that it is possible to have a non-theistic religion, and those who are aware do debate whether or not the word religion should be reserved for the theistic kinds.
The Borg clearly have a Collectivist Ideology, they have drives and ideas, desires and hopes, they are not mindless even if they actively suppress individual minds. But they are also very clearly non-theistic, they do not believe in higher entities or souls. They strive to achieve states of perfection, of new heights of being that they alone will reach as no one has done before.
The Borg are very antithetical the what people usually talk of when they say (theistic) Religion. While still very much remaining in the realm of Ideology.
Any Non-theistic Ideology can become just as bad as the worst of Theistic Religions. And many tents to associates those voes with religion first (likely because theistic religions have been in power more often and so we have seen it from that side most often over thousands of years).
In fact my personal opinion is that both Religions and Non-Theistic ideologies that bring all these harms have the same origin in flawed human thinking. Be it to believe one group are the "chosen people" or the "master race", whether you attach a god to it or not its the same evidently wrong kind of thinking humans are so prone to engage in.
The Borg are physically flawed: every wire is a spot to shoot or cut or get caught on something that their excessively complex hands and nearly immobile limbs could not detach or escape from. Their robotic oculus negates much of their periphery, their physical frame extends beyond those of the host species, and if it weren't for their adaptability to energy weapons they would be killed faster than they could assimilate. Standard projectile arms, bladed melee weaponry and even what I would call "Warp Traps" (dart guns with warp devices sending the Borg into space on-course with a star) would be sufficient in killing them in front line or guerrilla combat. They are slow, clumsy, and single minded (Hive or not, they all perform the same basic tasks at once with minimal tactical manipulation).
P.s.- Discarding the whole Star Trek plot of interstellar like-ancestry with a common, intelligent, bipedal humanoid species across the galaxy; Why are all of the Borg seemingly human-exclusive? They have numbers stretching into the thousands of collected civilizations, each potentially of several species (...or is each considered solitary/ Either Way!), so where are the inter-stellar races from other quadrants that should have GREATER numbers than anything local, as in, the NEW units. The invaders that gathered humanity would NOT have been humans...WHAT WERE THEY? WHERE ARE THEY> WHERE ARE THE REST? Big galaxy, few species?
the borg do display many aspects of religion. they claim to be perfect but at the same time they need to assimilate to come closer to perfection. these kinds of contradictions are common in religions. this core of their world view is something they are very zealous about, again a negative aspect of religion. they believe in a afterlife, when their physical bodies die their minds remain uploaded and part of the collective. I tend to be so much of an atheist that I believe that "1984 is about religion" is a valid point of view. I realize more Ideologically based worldviews can take these same kinds of religious aspects onto them and where the omega molecule is concerned the borg defiantly do.
I just want to say that the negative aspect of every religion is the people. Nobody is perfect, even if they were to follow the hypothetical perfect religion.
An entire group of beings bent on attaining perfection whilst considering anything that’s not them or disagrees with their methods to be inferior, one might even say heretical, is not viewed as being religious, but assumed to be secular?
I think I’ve been doing secular wrong. Bring me some of that good old dogma!
I doubt they'd believe in anything they can't measure or have no hard data on so no I doubt Borg are religious. They may consider the possibility of there being deities out there somewhere but mostly in the sense of being eager to eventually assimilate them to help achieve perfection.
Well, a Star Trek villain group with religious beliefs? Of course! Why not? Religions were already so undercut in Trek. Why not making one for the villains?
Religion without spiritually?
It occurs in the real world
Extremism of any religion is what is bad.
And the Borg are just that, an extreme expression of collectivist action and thought in pursuit of True Perfection.
*Extremism of ANY kind of philosophy is what is bad.
Cylons (reimagined) were monotheistic and believed in a God.
Yup
"I'm going to be critical of religion." "In order to be perfect, you have to be religious." Wooooooooow.
I .. really .. really.. doubt you are using those in context. It’s been a while though so maybe
2:03 "In the episode "The Omega Molecule..." *shows an image with the real titel of the episode a few moments later*
Uh-huh.
So I misspoke.. just pointing out or inferring something ?
Just looked over my comment again and was like "Oops, that was douchy of me." Sorry about this :(
I didn't want to infer anything. It's just such obvious mistakes in the first few minutes irk me and make me go "Uh-huh." Add in that i was a bit pissy when i commented and you get such a stupid comment. Sry again.
I agree that religion can take on many nontraditional roles, and gain positions that many would dispute. For example, I've long held that many on the left politically, in the US, Canada and many other Western countries, have in effect replaced relogion with politics to the extend that their religion has become their politics, where their political beliefs and views of their heros are the scripture and the government is their "higher power" that all should bow before.
Talking to an extremely religious person, I'm not saying priest but instead those who really push it, and you will find little difference between their ideas and goals and that of extreme leftists. Both want to force their views on others, both demand you bow before their "God" and both feel only their way is the right way. Sure the details vary, but not the methods, behaviors and beliefs, when looked at broadly. For example, both feel their opinions, and only their opinions should be taught in schools, and that it should be taught as fact. The only difference between them being the specific of what should be taught. Additionally they both feel that any other opinions are dangerous and must be squashed, those that hold them isolated and silenced and that any who does promote them must be punished and isolated to prtect everyone else from what they might say.
So yes, I could buy into the borg as a religion, as they follow that same pattern. Thank you, I find this very interesting, plus it gives me an excuse to watch Voyager again, overall I did enjoy the character, although I never did care for Janeway, she grew on me a bit at times but overall I just didn't like the way they seemed to be so unfocused with her, it was like they couldn't decide if she was just another Star Fleet officer and was no different than any male Captain, or if she was a Captain and a woman who could be softer and more emotionally centered and it came across, at least to me, as someone with multiple personality disorder at times. I have never been able to decide if it was their writing for her, or the way she was played.
Personally I wish Kira or the original Dax had been given command of the ship to track down the Maquis, or maybe bring a couple new characters into DS9 and then see which hit the right notes before giving them command. They need not even have originally been the Capt, just the senior officer to make it off the Caretakers station. Make Kira second in command to help track the ship they were looking for down, boom one dead Captain later she's the boss, that would have made for an even more interesting dynamic, since you would have the Maquis crew, the Star Fleet crew, all being led by some who had basically filled both roles at one time or another, so while both crews would claim her, neither crew would trust her at first.
I always thought the Borg represented religious dedication
Until this.. I never really considered it
They have such tunnel vision, like when they ignored the boarding crew in TNG until they passed a threat. It just reminds me of those who most strongly follow religious doctrine not daring to venture outside a narrow interpretation of a belief system that is divorced from their situation.
Roddenberry began with the idea of insects for them, as I recall.
i h8 the borg queen. i assume hers is a post-lore splinter group
Can I just say I still hate the borg queen as a concept?
The only way it could have worked if she was an attempt at making another "diplomat" Borg for some reason. But the way it's implemented literally undermines the entire concept.
If you see the borg queen as one of many queens/kings... then it's not a problem. The borg have to surpress indivuality, but at the same time need it to think outside of the box. I believe the borg collective are infact... several queens and kings in hive mind, echoing through the borg.
If you have no invidualism. You are a machine like most drones.
If you have indivualism, you can think of ways to lead. If all borg were like drones... you will slowly start asking the question. "What's it's reasoning? What it's drive? How do you adapt by just assimilating? But how do you assimilate something you cannot or destroy?"
No matter how you look at the borg.. they need some indivualism to make certain decissions and discoveries. How did they find their perfect specimen in subspace? A king or queen must have thought: "What if we do this? What results do we have?"
While the queen in Voyager/1st contact is abit of a typical villian. If you see her as an OUTLIER of the borg collective who took control after the war with species 8475 (or Undyne) then suddenly all the pieces fit together.
The collective of kings and queens of borg were all doing their own stuff to improve the borg in their own indivual ways and also keeping an eye on those under their "branch"
A war breaks out and destroys kings and queens.. lowering the borg numbers... then one main queen takes over the most.. the one who delt with voyager.
Also if you think about it.... if the queen had a favorite drone who is showing indivualism (7 of 9) ..could it be... that Seven was suppose to become a Borg Queen at one point? Wich means small flares of invidualism sometimes are used within their drone society? ...Now the borg sounds even more interresting then just: "Logical robotic species that takes over tech and organics"
Cause even the logical species that are Vulcans... see logic in how humans work. So naturally Borg should too no?
There are a lot of aspects of secularism and "religion" at a phlisopical level that are similar as secularism is sorta reigion in the way it functions and pretty much fills the vaccum left by religion in non religious people.
If one Borg feels the way 7 felt about the Molecule, wouldn’t they all? Well besides the stupid queen... she ruined the Borg for me
I agree the Borg worked with Voyager because they could not find the way to stop Species 8472, Os logic would say ( THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND ) What the $&%^@$ No that is Predator dame it.
So... the Borg is essentially the Space Romans conquering for the Space Roman Empire in Space? With these Space Romans conquering for Space Rome in Space slowly turning into Space Catholics in Space?
... I'm getting some ideas for some Space Nun Space Porn in Space...
But yeah... the whole "taking in other cultures to be part of one unified thing... but still preferring the older culture" is kind of what the Roman Empire did.
Between this... and people realising that Klingons were more just a race whose first contact was not the good kind of first contact (and most of their culture was destroyed), mixed with how Vulcans reproduce via having The Purge as part of their culture, the Romulans being made not part of the Vulcans by having a "The Purge sounds like a terrible idea"-stance, and a lot of other thought that let's be honest, the writers never intended to have happen...
... I'm kind of curious as to how the next few series of Star Trek will end up developing? I mean, sure we have the really dumb Kelvin Timeline... but a lot of people watching, making and interacting with these videos will end up working on the show... and we will eventually have stuff that has a more empathy filled take on the Klingons (or at the very least Klingon's version of Conan the Barbarian)--stuff that has the Vulcans be put less god-like and more just "having a very nice Snap-chat and Facebook profile"...
It is really nice to think that this stuff all over the TH-cam and Internets will end up influencing future Star Treks.
The idea of the Borg having a religion is not really all that outlandish. They are clearly capable of faith because they believe in a concept that cannot be substantiated empirically. Their guiding principle is the search for perfection which is in and of itself an abstract and possibly unknowable condition. It could be considered a dogmatic philosophy which often serves as the beginning of a religion. It's not so much religion itself that's toxic there are however 2 Concepts that often come out of religion that can be toxic. Those two things are fundamentalism and extremism. A religion after all is a structured set of ideas and any idea taken to its logical extreme can be toxic.
I find this quite a plausible argument as both an Atheist and a Secularist, however I do understand why many might object to the idea an that's because... well, we're sick and bloody tired of it. It's become something of a cliché staple in Science Fiction to have the most technologically sophisticated race of aliens or faction of humans also be religiously indoctrinated and fanatically single minded. Sometimes it makes a good deal of sense, like you have explained with the Borg or with the Covenant of Halo where all their technology comes from conquest or salvaging an ancient civilisation's technology but to scientifically and technologically progress you require open mindedness and willing to question initial perceptions and ideas. This is anathema to any sort of strict religious regime or dogma so seeing it crop up so frequently is naturally going to create opposition in the cases where it isn't readily apparent.
Except the Covenant and Geth and Borg AREN'T the most technologically advanced species in each media. The Reapers are unaligned, Prometheans as well, Isn't the Dominion more powerful? Granted they're pretty religiously dogmatic too.
Anyway also yeah "but to scientifically and technologically progress you require open mindedness and willing to question initial perceptions and ideas".
Do you honestly believe ALL religious views agree with each other? Or that ALL believers agree with other believers? Or that not one single religious person has ever questioned the church? Religion is not a single hivemind society in fact most religious views stem from a schism occurring from within the religion itself. Protestantism was created just like that for example.
What I'm saying is religious people DON'T stick to being conservative or agreeable with the main religious bodies 24/7 there in fact exists many many examples of religious people doing exactly what is required being open-minded and progressive. Someone's faith and politics don't have to align to a tribe mind mentality that you have to be this and that and never that and that. You can in fact be socially progressive and religiously conservative at the exact same time. Or be religiously progressive and socially conservative or neither.
Plus are you gonna negate the historical facts many of our renowned scientists were in fact religious? Or that the church was in fact a supporter of many research developments throughout history? Humanity itself has already proven a society CAN be highly religious and have scientific development at the exact same time. Whether through exceptions to the rule or simply human nature allowing differentiating opinions even in matters of faith either way it's been proven.
funny enough the desire to be perfect is religious. since they the Borg treat the concept of perfection like a god.
Indeed
Something can be like a religion without being a religion. Something I kinda wish more of my fellow Atheists on TH-cam understood. I just think it's telling that I can think of one Atheist on TH-cam whose show is ABOUT Atheism that isn't a complete asshole pushing a lot of the same debunked nonsense as the Far Right (or at least the Far Right of the English speaking world, I can't comment on other regions' fascist elements). The rest, they are open about being Atheists, but their channels are about movies (like my channel) or video games or food, not Atheism. There's a reason I and many in my circles, most of us non-believers ourselves mind you, use the term TH-cam Atheist as a pejorative.
Why would the Borg remove the greatest form of control and conformity. To do without question. So religious belief isn't something that had to sneak in over time . It is there by design. It's likely a giant weakness. Why they don't use cloaking technology or such
skip to 4:00
First!
Twitch tonight?
#winner - TH-cam tonight actually!
Jeri Ryan is *my* religion.
Thats one way to look at it.
seven should have gone back to her original name instead of 7 of 9
You want THE Second Opinion ?
IF you could IMAGINE, in the proper way, a single second of your life WITHOUT the idea of religion (NOT a "Spirituality", BUT - RELIGION) - you might, probably, call yourself the INTELLLLLIGENT ONE, but I'm positive THAT second and You shall never meet;
But, for argument's sake, if we are NOT talking of any kind of Borg's "Big-Gig-in-the-Sky" - what we are talking about (as an Omega molecule) ?
IF you could say, a proper way, something about the Enthalpy and the Entropy (which you positively CANNOT), you might try to think any SERIOUS idea - What Enthalpy & Entropy of an Omega molecule SUBSTANTIALLY - IS : In order to understand Supreme Idea of The Perfection, you should know something about the Entropy, as the Idea - and to know a FACT - that, in Terran limits of Matter and Time, the most perfect object is a pure form of diamond, among other things, because of the smallest entropy... and as such, it can hold, in the supreme way, THE Biggest amount of holographic information... (and, yes - definitely, I'm from Earth.)
Sounds a lot like nationalism, too. It's a blind following of an ideal that justifies realizing that ideal, at any cost.
Its definitely possible
Which might include some mutations of liberalism...
Chris sonofPear ...and conservatism.
people have a real problem understanding that a sentient machine is just another form of life. but higher life like humans, not dolphins or a regular computers. it is a human thing. not understanding that there is something other than us.
As you stated, many would contest that yea..
You're suggesting she's not the Borg Queen, so much as she is the Borg Pope?
A centralized figure that the Borg blindly follow with out thought or question is what some of the evidence suggests..is what I am saying