first lol Please be sure to check out Surfshark VPN! If you put in my code 'Chuck', you can save 83% on your purchase and get a free month! surfshark.deals/Chuck To clear up a few things. 1. I said manga Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, I am not referring to Buuhan in this case. In the anime, it's clear Kid Buu> Buuhan. 2. I clearly meant in the start that Gohan was the strongest unfused character and the second strongest character would be Gotenks in general, not the "2nd strongest unfused", that makes no sense. 3. Some of you are acting like I hard claimed that Goku>Gohan in general. I clearly said there are implications that at least put him on comparable ranges, that doesn't mean Goku>Gohan outright. The anime, however, clearly states & shows otherwise.
Chuck you and Seth the program pussy needs to debate where broly stands in the ToP. I’m leaning that broly full power is relevant to Jirens full power.
Incase anyone is confused as to why the writers never seem to care for accurate powerscaling, it’s because they don’t care. They wanna show us interesting fights that keep us entertained not “how many times greater is Kid Buu compared to Krillin”
Black Saiyan God hey when you introduce numbers to a series just because u stop showing it’s nit going to stop people from loving Power scaling so I agree with what you’re saying but I love number so I’m a keep power scaling
He was never a disappointment. Gohan isn't a fighter. He only fights when he has to. He always wanted to be a family man. His arc about him having hidden potential and unlocking it was completed in the cell arc. Super did a lot of thing wrong, but did gohan's character justice and I'm glad they didn't listen to gohan fanboys who can't stop complaining that gohan isn't fighting that much like in the cell arc.
Black Saiyan God have you ever heard of Reagan from Mob Psycho he’s the best character in the chow and he doesn’t have powers. But that’s Mob Psycho there’s actually plot in the manga
This is like a old as hell debate man, the nostalgia. I renember in the 2000's debating this on DBZ forums. Probably the most divisive debate next to Super Buu vs Kid Buu.
Ultimate gohan was the strongest non fused character in Z i remember ssj3 immediately getting crapped on by buutenks when ultimate gohan at least somewhat went blow for blow for a while which is another reason why goku should have saved him when kid buu blew up the planet
I used to argue this afew years ago, that he may have been stronger than Gotenks, but I was outnumbered, people would rage even if I mentioned this. Thanks for saying this, me from afew years ago can finally find some piece.
If the Zenkai...power boost...whatever you wanna call it was on the scale of ridiculousness in the Buu Saga like it is during Super than hell yes Goku would no doubt be #1. Even that filler scuffle with Buutenks and Buuhan would've pushed him to the top (as dumb as it sounds). However, no...no...we can't use the ridiculous power boosting logic of Super in the context of the Z era.
@@enkidude9372 They sort of did do that though. Remember when Nappa went from a power level of 4,000 to being able to almost fight Goku (8,000 at the time) over the course of the Saiyan invasion?
Good follow up video my man. To many contradictions on both sides imo for a definitive answer XD But there is a solid argument to be made in the anime version for Goku surpassing Gohan after getting revived, I do agree there, but not so much in manga imo. The best way I can reconcile the inconsistency in anime is Goku during Fat Buu fight is below Gotenks and Gohan, but after being revived by Elder Kai and doing several battles during fusion arc he surpasses Gohan and Gotenks. Even then you still get some statements about super Buu being to strong for Goku and Vegeta though, so it's still not fully consistent. It's really to bad we don't have a definitive answer even today tbh, but TOIE and the writers love to be vauge and inconsistent whenever it comes to scaling, especially in the anime.
Did you forget about the guide that said if gohan and gotenks were at the final battle with boo they would’ve easily killed him while goku was just on par with kid boo? I think the most consistent scaling shows that gohan is more powerful than goku.
What guide was that? Send me a link, As well, Goku believes him (He was drained so not SSJ3), Vegeta, Gohan, and Gotenks would have to team up, meaning more then likely Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks wouldnt solo and the guide contradicts the source material (I can send the link to this statement btw)
Ultimate Gohan was basically confirmed stronger than SSJ3 Goku but I don’t know if Gotenks was stronger than Goku, before Gohan became from badass to nerdass
So wait... does that mean that Goku's base was higher than Majin Vegeta's base, in the beginning of the Buu's arc, or the SS3 multiplier is actually higher than just a ×4 on top of SS2?
Honestly vegeta, gohan, piccolo, goten, and trunks, should've had more shine in this arc, even the humans. And ssj3 should've been done and introduced in a better way
Emilio Espinoza honestly the arc is fine there just needs to be better dualisms the removal of such things as : Gotenks ssj3(keeping him ssj1 is fine) The kids goten and trunks shouldn’t have gone ssj even though they are gag characters There should have been more dialogue about how gohan was never truly ready to take gokus place as protector of the earth Goku and vegeta shouldn’t have gotten ssj 2 since it is a rage based transformation Although letting goku keep ssj3 is fine Tien although understandably should have more of a role(he went up against buutenks no one was doing well against Buutenks) In the dialogue at the tower (when they speak against vegetas death and buu) the build up for ssj 3 should have begun with something like goku saying he held back against vegeta so he wouldn’t drain his time on earth further Also get rid of great saiyaman it adds nothing to the main plot besides meeting videl infact I’ve wrote a way to fix the buu arc while still relatively staying true to what toriyama was trying to achieve
Fax I don’t get why people hate that form to me it embodies the power of primal understanding into saitama folklore like the saiyan body is becomeiny more and more connected to its heritage with that long hair and intense electricity
Goku when he said super buu was stronger was not at his full power. Goku states when Vegeta was revived he cannot use his full power, Goku was instantly drained after he used SS3. You can see a sweat drop after he turns back into base. He didn't even use SS2 inside Buu's body.
Can you do a “was Kenpachi or Byakuya, stronger than Aizen” in the Hueco Mundo arc. Since Kenpachi and Byakuya were characters not present in that battle
Bisexual Ichigo Byakuya would be destroyed, as we’ve seen a timeskip Byakuya being utterly destroyed by As Nödt, who is definitely weaker than Hueco Munro Aizen.
Bisexual Ichigo seth did a video on Aizen and it was stated that the only characters that could interfere with his plan was Yamamoto and Kenpachi So Byakuya and The rest of the Captains were no real threat to Aizen Aizen also stated that kisuke was above himself
@@Ytbjohn06 Essentially some folks think when Aizen and Ichigo "transcended" above the differences between soul reaper, hollow, quincy etc they exist on a higher plane of reality... If you really want to wank them; they exist above the concepts of life and death to the point of viewing them as "illusions" (a few even think Ichigo might be 6D for transcending even "higher" than Aizen), ofc it's a load of bs/head-canon with folks assuming transcending = existing infinitely above another dimension (even tho Ichigo/Aizen are still bound by time which is 4D). Reasonably you can assume they have the potential to become a being similar to the prime SK but that's about it, the fact multiversal possibly low complex multiversal Bleach is even an idea is both hilarious and kinda pathetic... TL;DR: A few folks misunderstood the context behind a few vague statements and used it to wank their favourite Shonen.
@@chadboyle4107 It's logicall that Gohan is the stronger non-fusion character. He was bullying Super Buu, and yet Goku cant defeat Kid Buu even with a full power SS3. It makes no sense that Kid Buu would be the stronger, they clearly meant that he was the most dangerous version, because he is incredibly unhinged.
@@good8619 ah yes Kid buu The same kid buu that couldnt be beaten by a spirit bomb WITH ultimate gohan's power in it Until goku gets his strength back which turns the tides in his favor just enough for a win Which means To beat kid buu (and keep in mind ultimate gohan was only a single part of the spirit bomb so this is massive downplay) and obliterate him You have to be more powerful then ultimate gohan by a bit So actually, logically speaking kid buu is stronger than super buu Does this mean goku is stronger than gohan? Mabye but i doubt that Whats more likely is kid buu was toying with goku and vegeta their entire fight If you think kid buu doesnt toy arround and is always unhinged Please go back to when he instantly falls asleep on finding goku and vegeta again And then mocks them by beating his chest like a monkey even after getting sent flying by a hit
So moro? (Im only joking) I actually have a theory on how it would play out I honestly do not see cell benefiting from his 73 copy ability we have given him in this story up until his fight with goku As cell already has all the abilities of the people hes fighting And as we've seen (with the exception of mastered ultra instinct for some reason) moro has never been able to copy transmitions Despite copying vegeta, he couldnt use even super sayain So i won't say that cell would be able to either Semi perfect cell wouldnt be able to reach goku at all in order to copy instant transmition as he wasnt able to close the distance in the original series The copy ability also wouldn't really help him when hes getting his ass handed to him by vegeta as vegeta didnt have any abilities for cell to copy, same with trunks. They just over powered him. And cell already has all of their techniques, even trunks, as he absorbed the trunks in the timeline this cell had come from Once he becomes perfect events still dont change all the way until the cell games, perfect cell vs mastered ssj aka grade 4 ssj goku I belive he would probably copy goku to use that instant transmition ability after seeing goku use it to dodge his Kamehameha and after goku uses the instant transmition Kamehameha against cell Cell was stronger than goku and got the better of him several times in this fight So he could have that much earlier Also cell would without question have the kaioken now. But he wont need it aganst goku. Goku gives up as he did in the original, and throws cell a Senzu bean, his confidence in gohan had not been shaken So when it came time for it i think it would be a kaioken boosted perfect cell vs the rage boosted ssj 2 gohan (I know ssj 2 is only a 2x boost off of ssj but gohan also had a rage boost here, possibly the largest rage boost of his life) I think this would end in one of 2 ways, 1. Cell decideds to run away, with goku reciving a zenkai after his fight with cell and his beating he recived from the cell jrs, he may be a threat as well to cell if goku was desperate enough to use kaioken as well, and cell not knowing if gohan has the kaioken either(which would be really bad for him) decides to swallow his pride and flee the planet to fight another day, weither by dashing into space, or using instant transmition 2. The more likely event is probably a fight between gohan and cell leading to a Kamehameha struggle just like before with super perfect cell vs ssj2 gohan in cannon just with cell not being super perfect and having the kaioken instead. The beam struggle is intense With cell tearing up his body more and more to amp the kaioken even further to try and overpower gohan The change here is that goku is alive, thanks to perfect cell never getting 18 hit out of him and blowing himself up, and would go right next to gohan and fire a Kamehameha with him A father son Kamehameha Cell would probably reach 20x kaioken and goku and gohan would struggle Goku would have no other options but to use the kaioken himself on top of ssj as much as he can And with gohan Makes one last push to over power cell Whether by cell being overpowered by sheer force, or by his 73 copy ability on goku finally runing out, cell would be doomed. With both of cell's hands busy blasting the Kamehameha, and the stress of the situation, theres no time to use instant transmition even if the copy ability didnt run out of time And perfect cell is obliterated from the father son Kamehameha Unfortunately the kaioken on top of super sayain was far too much for goku's body to survive Just before goku dies He would tell gohan how proud he was of him just like in the original when he telliports cell away In the case though they have his body to burry Krillin could have asked Shenron to revive 17 and 18 (17 and 18 were cyborgs, i know they were called Androids but its pretty clear they were cyborgs as 18 had a baby, Android 16 wasnt able to be brought back because he actually was a full android and had no soul to restore) So krillin doesn't have to remain single, and i think Bulma would be more then capable of removing 18's bomb. And after that I believe that the series would progress as it normally did I think giving cell 73's copy ability would make for a new intresting fight instead of having ssj2 gohan vs cell being a one sided stomp But it would ultimately lead to the same conclusion
Holden the Time Walker No definitely Frieza 17 was shown being at least Frieza’s level by casually blocking a hit meant to hurt him by Jiren, and he was shown to be weaker than Saganbo.
Wtf is a Creampie? Are you talking about regular Saganbo or Moro powered up Saganbo? It might be more even if it’s base Saganbo but he FUCKS with Moro energy
Holden the Time Walker He got his ass kicked for an hour we’ve always been told that Freeza had insane durability. However even he acknowledges that he wouldn’t be able to defeat Goku and Vegeta hence why he brought Broly to fight them instead. Also Broly didn’t reach his full power until he fought Gogeta.
I think there a lot of evidence to make either statement. I would say that Ssj 3 goku is slightly above Gotenks and equal to Gohan but Gohan doesn't have any stamina problems. So he can keep his peak performance up for a longer period of time. And regarding the statement you posted that buu gained power equal to Goku . I think it meant that the power added to his base form was amountwise equal to Ssj3 goku so as if he absorbed a ssj3 goku
Honestly I think Gohan and Gotenks are still stronger in the buu saga.Goku was scared to fight super buu and Gohan completely destroyed Super Buu and Gotenks as a SSJ3 was on par with super buu.When Buu absorbed Gohan Goku desperately wanted to fuse with someone to fight Buuhan
Goku literally nutted up in the manga to the same Buutenks that Gohan could attempt to stand up to. The anime makes it less obvious by implying that Goku could at least somewhat hold his own. I still say Gohan is stronger.
@@ripper3052 liar about what? You can straight up read it for yourself. Goku was visibly scared to fight Buutenks in the manga, like he put his guard up like a scared kid. The anime has you believe that he could hold his own but the manga flat out shows that Goku wants no part in fighting Super Buu in any capacity.
@@ReeceHoward06 He was Also Willing to go without any Potara and was planning to fight him until elder Kaioshin stopped him and gave him Potaras. A scared guy wouldn't want to go right of the bat without measures. Gohan can't land a hit on cell actually
@@ripper3052 Again, go read the manga to see how he looked when Buu charged at him. It completely null and voids any arguments. Tell me another time in any part of Dragonball where Goku looks like that...
The evidence that shows Goku being supposedly stronger then Mystic Gohan isn't that reliable. Still seems to make more since for Mystic Gohan to be the strongest.
Kid boo was stated to be the strongest buu number of times and the anime never says that gohan is stronger and goku was equal to kid buu but was unable to stay in ssj3 so I think it makes sense for ssj3 goku to be the strongest
@@jrmutsunge7718 both in the manga and the anime Goku states that if him and vegeta were to fight super buu they'd lose while Goku was evenly matched with kid buu the reason why supreme kai was scared of kid was only because he was pure evil and there was nothing holding him back
I've always interpreted it as Goku may have less raw power than Gotenks or Gohan, but since he's just a much better fighter, he ends up being more effective than them in combat. He's not more powerful, but he's the best combatant the Z Fighters have
@@maadtee6281 Exactly. Going by the manga, its even more apparent as Goku was visibly shaken at the thought of fighting Buutenks. Dude couldn't even hold his guard properly.
it makes sense now kid buu was stronger than buuhan because he was powered up by having the daikaio's god power also more evidence is gohan has the most potential (as stated by vegeta and goku multiple time in the cell games and the preparation for the top in the manga and the promotional material for the anime version of the top) and the elder kai apparently unlocked gohans full potential but when gohan retained that power in super piccolo stated that he could still get stronger so either elder kai didnt unlock gohans full potential or gohan's potential increased by the time of the top... but on the other hand in daizentuu 2 it stated that ultimate gohans power was bottomless so that statement has now been retconed then
Goku in the Buu Saga is nowhere near the powers of Gotenks and Gohan but maybe during the early Battle Of Gods movie/arc?? I did think it was funny but after a while the joke kinda got stale.
@@jayglizzyxgaming8812 obviously, that's why I typed that the joke has gotten pretty stale, it's false and inaccurate information, maybe the English dub has some mishaps and maybe there's some false statements but going by everything that was shown and for what everyone and I have believed for our lives nothing else will ever be true because it isn't, this video is going against the Narrative and the Creators intent.
@@shreyaankhanna4944 toriyama himself can't even power scale his own characters. He has said before that Krillin was stronger than Tien, this shows he doesn't even know how strong his characters are.
nope, my opinion doesn't change...cause your first mistake. the manga doesn't say Kid Buu is the strongest form of Buu. that's a poor translation, it says he is the purest form and the most terrible form. as in the purest evil, no reservations about his slaughter and evil deeds. which is why he is the most terrible, because other forms of Buu possessed some form of good influence, Kid Buu does not. also, Buu with the mind of a child becomes infinitely more cruel as children often are. facing his dark deeds with the same joy and glee an ordinary child would with say opening presents on Christmas Day. there are no definitive statements which even suggest Kid Buu was in anyway superior. also, Goku never fought Buuhan as you suggested. Vegito did, and while he and Vegeta may retain the knowledge of Vegito, they are not Vegito. fusion entities are separate beings and Goku only briefly exchanged blows with Super Buu...and even then that was inside of Buu's body in an anime only fight of memory serves correctly. in an environment entirely under Buu's control and even with the aid of Vegeta they were never on the winning end of that, in fact. Vegeta had to use the removal of Fat Buu to save Goku from Super Buu before Buu killed Goku, a Super Buu who Gohan completely dominated yet nearly killed Goku. with that in mind, consider... because i think you over scaled Super Saiyan 3, a form like all Super Saiyan forms has a finite stated multiplier. Super Saiyan a 50 times multiplier, 50 times more powerful than base. Super Saiyan 2, double that, 100 times base. Super Saiyan 3, 4 times Super Saiyan 2, 400 times multiplier of the base form. now with that in mind, yes I believe Goku is more power than he has admitted up to this point because of the fight he put up without using Super Saiyan 3, but the gap between he and Buu is still too great to feel he closed the gap between he and Gohan, and it instead makes more sense to postulate that he held back from Super Saiyan 3 to conserve his stamina. as even with a dead body using the form in the living world put him on his knees, especially after he demonstrated it for Goten and Trunks. that said, Goku would be well aware that the strain on a living body would be greater, even if he underestimated how much greater. because unlike Vegeta who had been dead at best a day, two tops Goku was more aware of how that dead body worked. because from awakening Fat Buu, to killing Kid Buu no more than 48 hours had passed. so Goku had seven years of training in a similar body where Vegeta at most had that body two days. i mention this only to give a base line. because we know Goku is obsessive, we know he would have trained nearly constantly. so he knew the way that body worked from years of experience. then revived less then a day, while he had decades with a living body, he underestimated the strain because he was out of practice. so knowing the form could break his stamina even when dead, then with just hours alive he overestimated his ability where Vegeta likely underestimated his own. even with the clear zenkai boosts Goku received, whether he was holding back or not, there is no real indication Goku gained as much power as you suggest, nor is there evidence that Kid Buu was as powerful as you feel he is. with no canon source to support your claim, and only poor translations and vague guide references which back you up, yet also back up the proper translation as well. another correction. "trillions of people" did not contribute Genki to the Genki Dama. on the Namekians did, which number only about one hundred, and the humans...and the human population in Dragon Ball was never given a definitive number...but it can be assumed it was only in the billions. so only billions contributed to the Genki Dama. that isn't to say you're wrong, I just don't believe your right. it's my opinion you misinterpreted the facts by mistake. though I do think that by the end of the battle with Kid Buu, with the way Saiyans adapt in battle and through adversity that Goku was likely stronger than Gohan once he full recovered his strength and stamina from the strain Super Saiyan 3 and the fight put on him, but I think it only occurred after the battle was won.
All things being equal, if the Buu character clones are equal to the originals then it's fairly blatant Vegeta got a huge buff. He finessed ssj3 Gotenks which easily puts him far above Fat Buu and probably even above ssj3 Goku when he fought Fat Buu.
I think it comes down to Ssj Vegito > Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed) > Kid Buu (right before he died) > Gohan > Gotenks > Super Buu > Goku >= Kid Buu (start of the fight) I think Kid Buu was at first weaker than Super Buu as Goku and Vegeta thought they could win without fusing even after Kid Buu Blew up Earth with many times the energy needed that Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be able to stop, but as the fight goes on Kid Buu got more powerful. Fat Buu is also said to have been growing in power over time since his first appearance including during his fight with Ssj 3 Goku. We see in Super that good Buu inclused his power a lot within only a couple hour. Super Manga says that Kid Buu had dormant god ki and as the purest buu, his power growth rate could be higher than Fat or even Super Buu.
A fat pank gum can eat people and get stonger. Well goku training all the time just fights. So people actually think goku is stong like dude he gets hes ass beat and than he beat them. So who is really stronger 1 superman 2 hulk 3 buu
Good to have you back (and with a great vid at that) xD hope you're good. I'd like a video about Cloud/Sephiroth, given the release of FF7, it would be pretty cool.
@@vlonecartie2796 It's not about the video, it's about reading the manga. Gohan is portrayed as stronger. He bodies Super Buu with ease when Goku couldn't even compete. He fought a losing battle against Gotenks Buu, but wasn't outright slaughtered. Kid Buu is not as powerful as Super Buu, his Ki briefly rose when he became buff buu, but settled back down. Throughout the entire show, Gohans potential was a focus. Even narratively speaking, why would it make sense for Goku to be stronger at End of Z. Gohan is the strongest infused character at the End of Z without a doubt
@@Yayopup Gohan didn't train after the buu saga so no on strongest at the End of Z, it was never stated that Kid Buu got weaker when he stopped being Buff Buu that's what i call headcanon (he even says in the video and it's probably not in the manga either if you actually checked) and he uses multiple sources to back his point while you used none.
I never took the whole SSJ Goku beating Ultimate Gohan copy cause he couldn't even beat Fat Boo as SSJ2 and that would imply Ult. Gohan is weaker than Fat Boo even though we just saw him wreck a stronger version of Boo. And if Goku did get a boost by coming back to life, it would have to be an insane boost for him to beat Ult. Gohan in just SSJ.
@@Borgdrohne13 But zenkai boosts are supposed to be recovering after near death, not straight up resurrection. But since Vegeta became stronger after resurrection, what can I do.
Toddles no the anime says kid Buu is on a completely different level than all the other buu’s up until that point and that he is the strongest and that his power actually had increased from super buu The manga doesn’t say any of that tho and pretty much is confirmed that Buuhan is the strongest
@@theheavenlybuddha1183 manga is source material therefore what it says is what we take. Buuhan is the strongest and even if you look at it, goku and vegeta needed to fuse to beat buuhan but goku just beats kid buu on his own
YO! Chuck I would like to debate on this. First off all I really like you’re videos and I’m almost always agreeing with all of your video including the once you do with Seth. You’re videos are enjoyable and I especially like the videos you and Seth debunk other videos. It was a few point you made that I would debate on if you’re interested. Some points being •goku black receiving zenkai’s mid fight • the gotenks vs buu fight • the goku vs "fake" gohan fight • kid buu being the strongest Majin I really hope you respond because if you have counters to my argument I will have more facts to use next time I am debating someone on this topic
I don't know what to think of this version of Goku being stronger than we thought. There are evidence, statements and guids, along with showing comparisons of one character to another, but when it comes to dragon ball, continuity wise, it makes it hard to believe. Cause over the years, Dragonball keeps making a steep slope for itself, the writers have the characters make statements that contradicts their actions, and if you see one character in Super, like two SSJ Blues, going against a Super Vegito being nearly even....the Vegito of Buu Saga. *(Reason I say this is because of Dragon Ball Legends, they show the People from the TOP, mainly the universe 6 Saiyans who was equal to the protagonist of the story mode, which the protagonist was near or at Buu Saga levels of power, but based on what was shown, Fat Buu would had decimated the Universe 6 Saiyans, no difficulty) I don't know if that Buu was stronger than the anime version, but I still couldn't see that Buu going toe to toe with ssj3 Gotanks from the anime. Even if it's not cannon to the anime, it still wouldn't make sense that the universe 6 Saiyans were that weak, or they were at those levels to being with, but became stronger in TOP......which surpassed all of buu characters then and there......I just wish for continuity for power scaling for any show, game, comic, manga, (or to sum it, fiction in general) what's wrong with that?
How about these? Vegeta after being brought back to life on Namek vs Frieza What if Vegeta fought Mecha Frieza would he last as he trained in space. I've also always felt Vegeta did get a boost after dieting against fat buu even back then I just put it as he was on par if not alittle stronger than majin vegeta from a after death zenkai
A good portion of this video talks about stuff from the anime-but if it's not in the manga it's not really canon-which I don't usually care about normally but considering this is a power scaling argument it's better to take from the manga. Not a lot of stuff is explicitly stated one way or another-and the line about them still not being able to handle super buu with no absorptions but fighting kid buu just doesn't make sense. (And I don't think it makes any sense for goku to lie in that scenario.) Personally, I still think it goes Fat buu >ssj1 gotenks > Sjj3 goku > Super buu > ssj3 gotenks > ultimate gohan
This was a lot more complicated than which Buu was more powerful. I think Kid Buu was at first weaker than Super Buu, but as the fight between him and Goku went on. Kid Buu was growing in power where as Goku was getting weaker. Gohan should still be more powerful than Goku I think as not only does it make sense power scaling, but in the anime they both fought Super Buu (Gotenks & Piccolo absorbed) with Gohan almost lasting the whole 30 mins where its clear that Ssj 3 Goku was just trying to stall for time and Buu thought that he could be both Goku and Gohan even if they teamed up against him. I think at the least the power gap between them is less and I think one reason why could be that Goten and Trunks are possibly Ssj where as Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan have become full powered Ssj
I´ve always supported the idea that Toei wanted Goku to be percieved as the superior one, given the fact that (anime) Goku was keeping up against Gotenks Buu while Gohan got curbstomped to death and in movie 13 Gohan was slapped silly by Hirudegarn while Goku not only got the upperhand but ultimately bested him. Oh and yeah, that bit inside Buu when Goku on SSJ matched Gohan´s illusion. Great vid btw!
2:48 the multiplier for SSJ3 is 8x that of SSJ2 so that'd mean that if all 3 were equal, which they weren't, he'd still be 2 & 2/3 times stronger than that
9:34 I don't think this should really be taken into account fr If u think about it, goku blacks Zenkais were pretty cheap As goku and Vegeta should've BEEN able to wash all their opponents if the zenkais DURING fighting were true. Meanwhile there was a noticeable difference in power AFTER recovering.
I think it’s obvious that buuhan is the strongest version of buu. Goku and vegeta literally had no choice but to fuse and go super saiyan on top of that. Goku was able to hang with kid buu by himself. Even accounting for zenkai boost, he wouldn’t have gotten more powerful than vegitto in such a short time. Also it only makes sense that buuhan would be the strongest. The only time buu fusion resulted in less power was when he absorbed the supreme Kai and became fat buu. Which was only due to his good nature. Otherwise it results in a power boost. It wouldn’t make sense that a buu that has three saiyans absorbed would be less powerful than one that doesn’t. Kid buu was the most dangerous because he was so unpredictable and had less intelligence compared to super buu. Kid buu couldn’t even talk. He was all about fighting. It just seemed like he was more powerful cuz he ain’t give a fuck and would just destroy shit for no reason. You literally can’t talk to him, it’s meaningless.
Another argument for super buu being weaker than pure buu (kid) is that super buu essentially absorbed good buu which could have weakened his pure power, and since pure buu no longer has good buu in his body he is no longer held back.
Counting the strongest from of the characters in DBZ the list of top 10 strongest and most powerfull characters at the end of manga and anime series: 1. Vegetto, 2. Majan Buu, 3. Gohan, 4. Goku, 5. Gottenks, 6. Vegeta, 7. Cell, 8. Dabura, 9. Future Trunks, 10. Suprime Kai. In DBS so fare: 1. Omni King, 2. Grand Prieast, 3. Angels, 4. Goku, 5. Jiren, 6. Gods of destruction, 7. Vegeta, 8. Toppo, 9. Freeza, 10. Android 17. In DB at the end: 1. Goku, 2. Piccolo, 3. Kami, 4. King Picolo, 5. Mr Popo, 6. Tien, 7. Korin, 8. Master Roshi, 9. Tao Pai Pai, 10. Jadarobie.
The same guide that claimed kid buu was the strongest also stated he was created by Babidi which we know is false. Kid buu is deffinetly the most pure and unpredictable of the forms but strongest? Not going by feats performed or Statements from most characters. Buu himself stated with Gohan absorbed he was the strongest form of Buu and he was aware of his original form. And not only Goku but Vegeta in SS2 was able to hold off kid Buu for a significant amount of time and overall peform better than other forms of Buu. The fact Goku didn't even entertain the idea of fighting later forms of Buu and it makes no sense to lie about it, he is always up front whether he thinks he can win or loose a fight. Vegeta also never saw ultimate Gohan prior to inside Buu so he wouldn't be aware of how strong he is so his "Goku strongest" statement doesn't really hold up. As using DB super for examples just doesn't work, the power scaling is beyond silly and the differences between the anime and Manga are too large.
Goku at first said he couldn't beat fat buu but later on says he could have killed him Vegeta knows the full power of buuhan and he knows the full power of super buu so he can easily gauge how strong is Gohan is
@@shreyaankhanna4986 The fact it was retcon is irrelevant it still throws into question the validity of the source, also I never said Goku fought kid Buu is ss2, I said even Vegeta in the form was able to put up somewhat of a fight against Buu. Also saying Vegeta knows how strong Gohan is doesn't make much sense as that Buu had absorbed many of the other Z fighters including Gotenks. So no there isn't any indication that Vegeta knew how strong Gohan became. Yes they rescued him from Buu but he was unconscious the entire time.
@@BigHeadClan buuhan = super buu + Gohan + goten + trunks + piccolo Vegeta knows the power of super buu and buuhan so probably in his head he did Gohan must be as powerful as the difference between the power of buuhan and super buu minus the power of gotten trunks and piccolo
Jess. This is historic and classic debate since early and primitive Internet with 2000s... Anime: Yes. Goku Ssj3 and Kid Buu stomps Gohan and Gotenks Ssj3. Manga: Definitly no. Gohan and Gotenks stomp Goku Ssj3.
Any time Goku is hinted to be stronger than Gohan at the endpoint of Z is just bad writing/inconsistency. I only take the manga, because every other source is hella inconsistent. ESPECIALLY Super. Super should NEVER be used to power scale Z.
In DBS when Gohan regained the ability to tap into his full potential the promotional material and guides state “that Gohan once again regained a power that surpassed Goku” sooo🤷🏿♂️
![ทุกครั้งที่หลับตา (Lucid Dream) - AYLA's [ Official MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4i1OBAQyv58/mqdefault.jpg)
first lol
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To clear up a few things.
1. I said manga Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, I am not referring to Buuhan in this case. In the anime, it's clear Kid Buu> Buuhan.
2. I clearly meant in the start that Gohan was the strongest unfused character and the second strongest character would be Gotenks in general, not the "2nd strongest unfused", that makes no sense.
3. Some of you are acting like I hard claimed that Goku>Gohan in general. I clearly said there are implications that at least put him on comparable ranges, that doesn't mean Goku>Gohan outright. The anime, however, clearly states & shows otherwise.
Chuck Hi Chuck. How are ya?
God dammit
Where the Godzilla video
Chuck you and Seth the program pussy needs to debate where broly stands in the ToP. I’m leaning that broly full power is relevant to Jirens full power.
bullshit
Incase anyone is confused as to why the writers never seem to care for accurate powerscaling, it’s because they don’t care. They wanna show us interesting fights that keep us entertained not “how many times greater is Kid Buu compared to Krillin”
Black Saiyan God hey when you introduce numbers to a series just because u stop showing it’s nit going to stop people from loving Power scaling so I agree with what you’re saying but I love number so I’m a keep power scaling
Just tell us who is stronger than who.
Just tell us who is stronger than who.
BvmR2SGVNG Shadow they do that to if you don’t want power scaling ignore it you can’t change it or you can’t even erase it
@@KamiAnimeS1 ik but some idiot ppl still think that kid buu is stronger than buuhan even tho he weaker than super buu
“Gohan was the strongest unfused character followed by gotenks”
...gotenks is a fusion tho
*and Goku
immediately my thought and just makes me not want to watch the vid just seems like he is stupid
@@DanielBoyce78 yea what's so hard to understand Gohan is the strongest none fused character and then gotanks who is fused is the 2nd strongest
Pretty sure he meant buutenks or whatever he's caller
Red Blue Uhhh Buutenks is fused as well lol
Last time I was this early Gohan wasn’t a disappointment
He was never a disappointment. Gohan isn't a fighter. He only fights when he has to. He always wanted to be a family man. His arc about him having hidden potential and unlocking it was completed in the cell arc. Super did a lot of thing wrong, but did gohan's character justice and I'm glad they didn't listen to gohan fanboys who can't stop complaining that gohan isn't fighting that much like in the cell arc.
ermac was here He’s not a disappointment, he’s just not a fighter in a fighting anime
Black Saiyan God have you ever heard of Reagan from Mob Psycho he’s the best character in the chow and he doesn’t have powers. But that’s Mob Psycho there’s actually plot in the manga
@@lightinstinct707 which isn't a bad thing. You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it's bad.
Gohan was never a disappointment tho
"Gohan is the strongest UNFUSED character followed by GOTENKS" something isn't adding up
Slip of the toung
It happens sometimes
I think he was trying to say
Gohan>gotenks
But vigeto >gohan
This is like a old as hell debate man, the nostalgia. I renember in the 2000's debating this on DBZ forums.
Probably the most divisive debate next to Super Buu vs Kid Buu.
8jij Joo in the anime kid boo > boohan
Manga boohan > ultimate gohan > kid boo > or = to ssj3 Goku.
How I’ve always seen it.
Ultimate gohan was the strongest non fused character in Z i remember ssj3 immediately getting crapped on by buutenks when ultimate gohan at least somewhat went blow for blow for a while which is another reason why goku should have saved him when kid buu blew up the planet
I wouldn't even call super buu vs kid buu a debate. Most know super buu is stronger and the idiots that don't shouldn't be taken seriously.
@@hamza361 super is stronger than kid buu. That's a fact.
@@Riskofrain527 if were talking base form no but buutenks then ultimate buu definitely by leagues
Short answer: no
Long answer: *YES*
I agree
Best answer: yes'nt
Good thing Nobody "ask you"
@@sweetaddictiontoawesomenes6831 yes lol
Lmao good answer
The comment section is gonna be in flames
Straight fire lol
Your pfp fits Perfectly lmao
I used to argue this afew years ago, that he may have been stronger than Gotenks, but I was outnumbered, people would rage even if I mentioned this. Thanks for saying this, me from afew years ago can finally find some piece.
Why would you say something so controversial yet so bold
Ej MoreG ok
100k? Well done. Been here since 1k.
been here since 49 lol
@@toribot2429 I’m literally Chucks 1st sub
@@lucid4080 nice attempt to flex I guess?
@@r3v1ve7 I subbed to chuck before he even made an account
If the Zenkai...power boost...whatever you wanna call it was on the scale of ridiculousness in the Buu Saga like it is during Super than hell yes Goku would no doubt be #1. Even that filler scuffle with Buutenks and Buuhan would've pushed him to the top (as dumb as it sounds). However, no...no...we can't use the ridiculous power boosting logic of Super in the context of the Z era.
The Haves and the Have Nots Review zenkai boost was already established in z
King Will then why didn’t they get stronger every second in every fight there in and not just super
A guy made to trigger you then why didn’t they get stronger every second in every fight there in and not just super
@@enkidude9372 They sort of did do that though. Remember when Nappa went from a power level of 4,000 to being able to almost fight Goku (8,000 at the time) over the course of the Saiyan invasion?
@@komrot5305 nappa was holding back tho
Good follow up video my man. To many contradictions on both sides imo for a definitive answer XD But there is a solid argument to be made in the anime version for Goku surpassing Gohan after getting revived, I do agree there, but not so much in manga imo. The best way I can reconcile the inconsistency in anime is Goku during Fat Buu fight is below Gotenks and Gohan, but after being revived by Elder Kai and doing several battles during fusion arc he surpasses Gohan and Gotenks. Even then you still get some statements about super Buu being to strong for Goku and Vegeta though, so it's still not fully consistent. It's really to bad we don't have a definitive answer even today tbh, but TOIE and the writers love to be vauge and inconsistent whenever it comes to scaling, especially in the anime.
I still think ultimate gohan is the strongest not fused character
@NPC 3-P-O He failed to catch a Motherfucking Earring at a normal(*Saiyan*) throw speed....let that sink in
@NPC 3-P-O there is more evidence supporting kid boo being above super boo
@NPC 3-P-O You just proved Goku is stronger by saying he fought evenly with Kid Buu.
@NPC 3-P-O Goku never fought super buu in the canon.
Aaden Turnbull exactly, he said he wasnt strong enough to defeat super buu.
Did you forget about the guide that said if gohan and gotenks were at the final battle with boo they would’ve easily killed him while goku was just on par with kid boo? I think the most consistent scaling shows that gohan is more powerful than goku.
exactly Gohan rapes
What guide was that? Send me a link, As well, Goku believes him (He was drained so not SSJ3), Vegeta, Gohan, and Gotenks would have to team up, meaning more then likely Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks wouldnt solo and the guide contradicts the source material (I can send the link to this statement btw)
That was El Manga Legendario.
Chadhan would have called him a retard
Golden Fist ultimate Gohan woulda bullied ssj3 Goku
1:28 HEY YO SOMEBODY CLIP THAT INTO GIF HOLY SHEET AJAJJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA
memeworthy
Ultimate Gohan was basically confirmed stronger than SSJ3 Goku but I don’t know if Gotenks was stronger than Goku, before Gohan became from badass to nerdass
No
Ripper 30 no what? That SSJ3 is stronger than Ultimate Gohan or that SSJ3 Goku is stronger than than Gotenks?
SSJ3 is stronger
@Hakaishin Cryptoprocta I am right, I know
@Hakaishin Cryptoprocta no
"Gohan is the strongest unfused character followed by gotenks" good video though
So wait... does that mean that Goku's base was higher than Majin Vegeta's base, in the beginning of the Buu's arc, or the SS3 multiplier is actually higher than just a ×4 on top of SS2?
Honestly vegeta, gohan, piccolo, goten, and trunks, should've had more shine in this arc, even the humans.
And ssj3 should've been done and introduced in a better way
Emilio Espinoza they got a bunch of screen time every single one of them and ssj3 is one of the most iconic moments😂
Zero 0 being iconic =/= good
@@Zero-hp1ds good point, but after the buu saga ssj3 was wasted.
Nyes daddy Harder 2.0 how was ssj3 not but I could see your point about it being treated horribly
Emilio Espinoza honestly the arc is fine there just needs to be better dualisms the removal of such things as :
Gotenks ssj3(keeping him ssj1 is fine)
The kids goten and trunks shouldn’t have gone ssj even though they are gag characters
There should have been more dialogue about how gohan was never truly ready to take gokus place as protector of the earth
Goku and vegeta shouldn’t have gotten ssj 2 since it is a rage based transformation
Although letting goku keep ssj3 is fine
Tien although understandably should have more of a role(he went up against buutenks no one was doing well against Buutenks)
In the dialogue at the tower (when they speak against vegetas death and buu) the build up for ssj 3 should have begun with something like goku saying he held back against vegeta so he wouldn’t drain his time on earth further
Also get rid of great saiyaman it adds nothing to the main plot besides meeting videl infact
I’ve wrote a way to fix the buu arc while still relatively staying true to what toriyama was trying to achieve
SSJ3 is literally my favourite ssj form so whenever it gets some love, I always agree no matter the argument.
Fax I don’t get why people hate that form to me it embodies the power of primal understanding into saitama folklore like the saiyan body is becomeiny more and more connected to its heritage with that long hair and intense electricity
We need more Dragon Ball videos from you and Seth.
Goku when he said super buu was stronger was not at his full power.
Goku states when Vegeta was revived he cannot use his full power, Goku was instantly drained after he used SS3. You can see a sweat drop after he turns back into base. He didn't even use SS2 inside Buu's body.
Exactly
Exactly.
Everything makes PERFECT sense without contradiction if gohan>ssj3gotenks>>ssj3 goku
Can you do a “was Kenpachi or Byakuya, stronger than Aizen” in the Hueco Mundo arc.
Since Kenpachi and Byakuya were characters not present in that battle
There is an argument to be made about kenpachi, but byakuya sure as hell wasn't comparable to Aizen
Even the kenpachi argument would only go so far but I agree byakuya would be immediately destroyed .
Bisexual Ichigo Byakuya would be destroyed, as we’ve seen a timeskip Byakuya being utterly destroyed by As Nödt, who is definitely weaker than Hueco Munro Aizen.
Bisexual Ichigo seth did a video on Aizen and it was stated that the only characters that could interfere with his plan was Yamamoto and Kenpachi
So Byakuya and The rest of the Captains were no real threat to Aizen
Aizen also stated that kisuke was above himself
No they were both weaker than Aizen by far its not a real argument.
Long story short NO!
Oh well at least it isn't a completely unreasonable reach unlike universal Naruto or 5D Ichigo lol!
This 5d ichigo bit intrigues me sound ridiculously bs but tell me more anyway
@@Ytbjohn06 Essentially some folks think when Aizen and Ichigo "transcended" above the differences between soul reaper, hollow, quincy etc they exist on a higher plane of reality...
If you really want to wank them; they exist above the concepts of life and death to the point of viewing them as "illusions" (a few even think Ichigo might be 6D for transcending even "higher" than Aizen), ofc it's a load of bs/head-canon with folks assuming transcending = existing infinitely above another dimension (even tho Ichigo/Aizen are still bound by time which is 4D).
Reasonably you can assume they have the potential to become a being similar to the prime SK but that's about it, the fact multiversal possibly low complex multiversal Bleach is even an idea is both hilarious and kinda pathetic...
TL;DR: A few folks misunderstood the context behind a few vague statements and used it to wank their favourite Shonen.
Thanks so much for responding I’m surprised I’ve never seen this argument used in a versus battle before.
Universal 😂😂😂
Where’d ya get that from
@Tornike Tvalchrelidze...
I was gonna sleep but chuck dropped the video soooooo gotta hit that like button
Gohan is the strongest character in Z. This is one time I definitely disagree with you.
Ok?
Do you just disagree off of a gutt feeling of something?
@@chadboyle4107 It's logicall that Gohan is the stronger non-fusion character. He was bullying Super Buu, and yet Goku cant defeat Kid Buu even with a full power SS3. It makes no sense that Kid Buu would be the stronger, they clearly meant that he was the most dangerous version, because he is incredibly unhinged.
@@good8619 ah yes
Kid buu
The same kid buu that couldnt be beaten by a spirit bomb WITH ultimate gohan's power in it
Until goku gets his strength back which turns the tides in his favor just enough for a win
Which means
To beat kid buu (and keep in mind ultimate gohan was only a single part of the spirit bomb so this is massive downplay) and obliterate him
You have to be more powerful then ultimate gohan by a bit
So actually, logically speaking kid buu is stronger than super buu
Does this mean goku is stronger than gohan?
Mabye but i doubt that
Whats more likely is kid buu was toying with goku and vegeta their entire fight
If you think kid buu doesnt toy arround and is always unhinged
Please go back to when he instantly falls asleep on finding goku and vegeta again
And then mocks them by beating his chest like a monkey even after getting sent flying by a hit
Imagine if Cell had 73's capabilities
So moro?
(Im only joking)
I actually have a theory on how it would play out
I honestly do not see cell benefiting from his 73 copy ability we have given him in this story up until his fight with goku
As cell already has all the abilities of the people hes fighting
And as we've seen (with the exception of mastered ultra instinct for some reason) moro has never been able to copy transmitions
Despite copying vegeta, he couldnt use even super sayain
So i won't say that cell would be able to either
Semi perfect cell wouldnt be able to reach goku at all in order to copy instant transmition as he wasnt able to close the distance in the original series
The copy ability also wouldn't really help him when hes getting his ass handed to him by vegeta as vegeta didnt have any abilities for cell to copy, same with trunks.
They just over powered him.
And cell already has all of their techniques, even trunks, as he absorbed the trunks in the timeline this cell had come from
Once he becomes perfect events still dont change all the way until the cell games, perfect cell vs mastered ssj aka grade 4 ssj goku
I belive he would probably copy goku to use that instant transmition ability after seeing goku use it to dodge his Kamehameha and after goku uses the instant transmition Kamehameha against cell
Cell was stronger than goku and got the better of him several times in this fight
So he could have that much earlier
Also cell would without question have the kaioken now.
But he wont need it aganst goku.
Goku gives up as he did in the original, and throws cell a Senzu bean, his confidence in gohan had not been shaken
So when it came time for it i think it would be a kaioken boosted perfect cell vs the rage boosted ssj 2 gohan
(I know ssj 2 is only a 2x boost off of ssj but gohan also had a rage boost here, possibly the largest rage boost of his life)
I think this would end in one of 2 ways,
1. Cell decideds to run away, with goku reciving a zenkai after his fight with cell and his beating he recived from the cell jrs, he may be a threat as well to cell if goku was desperate enough to use kaioken as well, and cell not knowing if gohan has the kaioken either(which would be really bad for him) decides to swallow his pride and flee the planet to fight another day, weither by dashing into space, or using instant transmition
2. The more likely event is probably a fight between gohan and cell leading to a Kamehameha struggle just like before with super perfect cell vs ssj2 gohan in cannon just with cell not being super perfect and having the kaioken instead.
The beam struggle is intense
With cell tearing up his body more and more to amp the kaioken even further to try and overpower gohan
The change here is that goku is alive, thanks to perfect cell never getting 18 hit out of him and blowing himself up, and would go right next to gohan and fire a Kamehameha with him
A father son Kamehameha
Cell would probably reach 20x kaioken and goku and gohan would struggle
Goku would have no other options but to use the kaioken himself on top of ssj as much as he can
And with gohan
Makes one last push to over power cell
Whether by cell being overpowered by sheer force, or by his 73 copy ability on goku finally runing out, cell would be doomed.
With both of cell's hands busy blasting the Kamehameha, and the stress of the situation, theres no time to use instant transmition even if the copy ability didnt run out of time
And perfect cell is obliterated from the father son Kamehameha
Unfortunately the kaioken on top of super sayain was far too much for goku's body to survive
Just before goku dies
He would tell gohan how proud he was of him just like in the original when he telliports cell away
In the case though they have his body to burry
Krillin could have asked Shenron to revive 17 and 18
(17 and 18 were cyborgs, i know they were called Androids but its pretty clear they were cyborgs as 18 had a baby, Android 16 wasnt able to be brought back because he actually was a full android and had no soul to restore)
So krillin doesn't have to remain single, and i think Bulma would be more then capable of removing 18's bomb.
And after that I believe that the series would progress as it normally did
I think giving cell 73's copy ability would make for a new intresting fight instead of having ssj2 gohan vs cell being a one sided stomp
But it would ultimately lead to the same conclusion
Anime: Yes. Goku Ssj3 surpassed Chow Gohan.
Manga: Now. Gohan stomp Goku Ssj3
@Thanos goku had 1/100th of his power due to their size in Super buu
@Thanos and goku (LT1%)was >= fake gohan who had power on par with the real version
I know this is slightly off-topic, but Saganbo would bitchslap Kefla and Golden Frieza.
Just wanted to say that
Holden the Time Walker No definitely Frieza
17 was shown being at least Frieza’s level by casually blocking a hit meant to hurt him by Jiren, and he was shown to be weaker than Saganbo.
Wtf is a Creampie? Are you talking about regular Saganbo or Moro powered up Saganbo? It might be more even if it’s base Saganbo but he FUCKS with Moro energy
Holden the Time Walker He got his ass kicked for an hour we’ve always been told that Freeza had insane durability. However even he acknowledges that he wouldn’t be able to defeat Goku and Vegeta hence why he brought Broly to fight them instead. Also Broly didn’t reach his full power until he fought Gogeta.
Mac Tonight He just got his ass beat for an hour.
9:06
I don't think that was right
I remember goku saying Vegeta still hasn't fully recovered from his battle with Buu the 1st time.
Waiting patiently and respectfully for the Godzilla Powerscale video
So to summarize, Goku got more powerful and *EVENTUALLY* surpassed Gohan after his fight with fat buu
I agree
ULIMATE gohan woulda raped goku
@@Toddles why
Mad Dogs Gaming super buu is stronger than kid buu
Nolan S did you even watch the video lol?!
I think there a lot of evidence to make either statement.
I would say that Ssj 3 goku is slightly above Gotenks and equal to Gohan but Gohan doesn't have any stamina problems. So he can keep his peak performance up for a longer period of time.
And regarding the statement you posted that buu gained power equal to Goku . I think it meant that the power added to his base form was amountwise equal to Ssj3 goku so as if he absorbed a ssj3 goku
FINALLY you're back.
Honestly I think Gohan and Gotenks are still stronger in the buu saga.Goku was scared to fight super buu and Gohan completely destroyed Super Buu and Gotenks as a SSJ3 was on par with super buu.When Buu absorbed Gohan Goku desperately wanted to fuse with someone to fight Buuhan
Goku literally nutted up in the manga to the same Buutenks that Gohan could attempt to stand up to. The anime makes it less obvious by implying that Goku could at least somewhat hold his own. I still say Gohan is stronger.
@@ReeceHoward06 liar ass
@@ripper3052 liar about what? You can straight up read it for yourself. Goku was visibly scared to fight Buutenks in the manga, like he put his guard up like a scared kid. The anime has you believe that he could hold his own but the manga flat out shows that Goku wants no part in fighting Super Buu in any capacity.
@@ReeceHoward06
He was Also Willing to go without any Potara and was planning to fight him until elder Kaioshin stopped him and gave him Potaras. A scared guy wouldn't want to go right of the bat without measures. Gohan can't land a hit on cell actually
@@ripper3052 Again, go read the manga to see how he looked when Buu charged at him. It completely null and voids any arguments. Tell me another time in any part of Dragonball where Goku looks like that...
Let’s go Chuck! Inspirational content! Although I want to see you and Seth collaborate more like the good ole days!
You reached 150K Congo🔥🔥🔥
The evidence that shows Goku being supposedly stronger then Mystic Gohan isn't that reliable. Still seems to make more since for Mystic Gohan to be the strongest.
Kid boo was stated to be the strongest buu number of times and the anime never says that gohan is stronger and goku was equal to kid buu but was unable to stay in ssj3 so I think it makes sense for ssj3 goku to be the strongest
@@jrmutsunge7718 kid buu is not the strongest super buu is kid buu is more dangerous although
@@nasimakhatoon388 I think kid is stronger than super buu and my bad the strongest buu buuhan
@@nasimakhatoon388 forgot buuhan existed
@@jrmutsunge7718 both in the manga and the anime Goku states that if him and vegeta were to fight super buu they'd lose while Goku was evenly matched with kid buu the reason why supreme kai was scared of kid was only because he was pure evil and there was nothing holding him back
I've always interpreted it as Goku may have less raw power than Gotenks or Gohan, but since he's just a much better fighter, he ends up being more effective than them in combat. He's not more powerful, but he's the best combatant the Z Fighters have
Gohan and Gotenks were definitely stronger than Goku, at least in the manga.
Even in the anime didnt chadhan do better against buutenks even though he was emotionally weakend
@@maadtee6281 Exactly. Going by the manga, its even more apparent as Goku was visibly shaken at the thought of fighting Buutenks. Dude couldn't even hold his guard properly.
I'm loving this video, I keep using it in Kid Buu vs Buuhan debates lol
Gorr the God Butcher vs. Nekron
it makes sense now kid buu was stronger than buuhan because he was powered up by having the daikaio's god power also more evidence is gohan has the most potential (as stated by vegeta and goku multiple time in the cell games and the preparation for the top in the manga and the promotional material for the anime version of the top) and the elder kai apparently unlocked gohans full potential but when gohan retained that power in super piccolo stated that he could still get stronger so either elder kai didnt unlock gohans full potential or gohan's potential increased by the time of the top... but on the other hand in daizentuu 2 it stated that ultimate gohans power was bottomless so that statement has now been retconed then
Darth E,xile chuck stated even buu tanks was stronger than kid buu dude
@@Toddles ok
Goku in the Buu Saga is nowhere near the powers of Gotenks and Gohan but maybe during the early Battle Of Gods movie/arc??
I did think it was funny but after a while the joke kinda got stale.
Cosmic Mitama The Ultimate did you watch the video
@@jayglizzyxgaming8812 obviously, that's why I typed that the joke has gotten pretty stale, it's false and inaccurate information, maybe the English dub has some mishaps and maybe there's some false statements but going by everything that was shown and for what everyone and I have believed for our lives nothing else will ever be true because it isn't, this video is going against the Narrative and the Creators intent.
Cosmic Mitama The Ultimate Toriyama is said Goku is number 1 so who's Intent is going against your own beliefs
@@shreyaankhanna4944 toriyama himself can't even power scale his own characters. He has said before that Krillin was stronger than Tien, this shows he doesn't even know how strong his characters are.
Jwj a Kloaaj creative intent would obviously be Toriyama's intent
I remember fanboys debating the fuck out of this back in the early 2000's.
2nd Hokage vs Wizard king
I've yet to REALLY watch Naruto, but it's definitely in my future projects.
Heeeeelllll yeah
After a hard-fought journey across the desert the Oasis of content I see I appreciate it and thank you
nope, my opinion doesn't change...cause your first mistake. the manga doesn't say Kid Buu is the strongest form of Buu. that's a poor translation, it says he is the purest form and the most terrible form. as in the purest evil, no reservations about his slaughter and evil deeds. which is why he is the most terrible, because other forms of Buu possessed some form of good influence, Kid Buu does not. also, Buu with the mind of a child becomes infinitely more cruel as children often are. facing his dark deeds with the same joy and glee an ordinary child would with say opening presents on Christmas Day. there are no definitive statements which even suggest Kid Buu was in anyway superior. also, Goku never fought Buuhan as you suggested. Vegito did, and while he and Vegeta may retain the knowledge of Vegito, they are not Vegito. fusion entities are separate beings and Goku only briefly exchanged blows with Super Buu...and even then that was inside of Buu's body in an anime only fight of memory serves correctly. in an environment entirely under Buu's control and even with the aid of Vegeta they were never on the winning end of that, in fact. Vegeta had to use the removal of Fat Buu to save Goku from Super Buu before Buu killed Goku, a Super Buu who Gohan completely dominated yet nearly killed Goku. with that in mind, consider... because i think you over scaled Super Saiyan 3, a form like all Super Saiyan forms has a finite stated multiplier. Super Saiyan a 50 times multiplier, 50 times more powerful than base. Super Saiyan 2, double that, 100 times base. Super Saiyan 3, 4 times Super Saiyan 2, 400 times multiplier of the base form. now with that in mind, yes I believe Goku is more power than he has admitted up to this point because of the fight he put up without using Super Saiyan 3, but the gap between he and Buu is still too great to feel he closed the gap between he and Gohan, and it instead makes more sense to postulate that he held back from Super Saiyan 3 to conserve his stamina. as even with a dead body using the form in the living world put him on his knees, especially after he demonstrated it for Goten and Trunks. that said, Goku would be well aware that the strain on a living body would be greater, even if he underestimated how much greater. because unlike Vegeta who had been dead at best a day, two tops Goku was more aware of how that dead body worked. because from awakening Fat Buu, to killing Kid Buu no more than 48 hours had passed. so Goku had seven years of training in a similar body where Vegeta at most had that body two days. i mention this only to give a base line. because we know Goku is obsessive, we know he would have trained nearly constantly. so he knew the way that body worked from years of experience. then revived less then a day, while he had decades with a living body, he underestimated the strain because he was out of practice. so knowing the form could break his stamina even when dead, then with just hours alive he overestimated his ability where Vegeta likely underestimated his own. even with the clear zenkai boosts Goku received, whether he was holding back or not, there is no real indication Goku gained as much power as you suggest, nor is there evidence that Kid Buu was as powerful as you feel he is. with no canon source to support your claim, and only poor translations and vague guide references which back you up, yet also back up the proper translation as well. another correction. "trillions of people" did not contribute Genki to the Genki Dama. on the Namekians did, which number only about one hundred, and the humans...and the human population in Dragon Ball was never given a definitive number...but it can be assumed it was only in the billions. so only billions contributed to the Genki Dama. that isn't to say you're wrong, I just don't believe your right. it's my opinion you misinterpreted the facts by mistake. though I do think that by the end of the battle with Kid Buu, with the way Saiyans adapt in battle and through adversity that Goku was likely stronger than Gohan once he full recovered his strength and stamina from the strain Super Saiyan 3 and the fight put on him, but I think it only occurred after the battle was won.
apologies for being so long winded.
Bruh you know paragraphs exist for a reason.
@@randomuruk7230 dude, this is the Age of Man. all the Uruk-Hai are long gone.
@@Jeremyhughes86 Oh shit, I've been exposed.
goodness
The death note ost for the intro was a banger
All things being equal, if the Buu character clones are equal to the originals then it's fairly blatant Vegeta got a huge buff. He finessed ssj3 Gotenks which easily puts him far above Fat Buu and probably even above ssj3 Goku when he fought Fat Buu.
Too many contradictions to have an answer.
Same goes with Kid Buu vs Super Buu.
Kid Buu is stronger than Super buu
Anime Kid Buu stomp Super Buu... No debate.
@Maurice Johnson yes
@Maurice Johnson yes
I think it comes down to Ssj Vegito > Super Buu (Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks absorbed) > Kid Buu (right before he died) > Gohan > Gotenks > Super Buu > Goku >= Kid Buu (start of the fight)
I think Kid Buu was at first weaker than Super Buu as Goku and Vegeta thought they could win without fusing even after Kid Buu Blew up Earth with many times the energy needed that Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be able to stop, but as the fight goes on Kid Buu got more powerful. Fat Buu is also said to have been growing in power over time since his first appearance including during his fight with Ssj 3 Goku. We see in Super that good Buu inclused his power a lot within only a couple hour. Super Manga says that Kid Buu had dormant god ki and as the purest buu, his power growth rate could be higher than Fat or even Super Buu.
I honestly think that SS3 Goku was stronger than Mystic Gohan.
Nah
Nope
Yes I agree
Ur wrong
I Agree SSJ3 Goku will Smack Mystic Gohan
This is quite an interesting opinion, really good video.
A fat pank gum can eat people and get stonger. Well goku training all the time just fights. So people actually think goku is stong like dude he gets hes ass beat and than he beat them. So who is really stronger 1 superman 2 hulk 3 buu
Pay attention in school, please.
What?
This gave me a stroke
I very much enjoyed this video, please keep it up!
End of Buu Saga
1- Ultimate Gohan
2- SSJ3 Gotenks
3- SSJ3 Goku
4- Fat Buu
5- SSJ2 Vegeta
Jesse Andersen accurate asf
Yep
@Gold The Winner wtf ?
@Gold The Winner just its crazy how people still think that kid buu is stronger than buuhan
@Gold The Winner No
I love videos that challenge the norm of what’s accepted in the dbz community
"Ultimate Gohan is the strongest unfused character in the Buu arc....then Gotenks..."
Good to have you back (and with a great vid at that) xD hope you're good. I'd like a video about Cloud/Sephiroth, given the release of FF7, it would be pretty cool.
Ultimate Gohan was just stronger in the Buu saga. Why is this still even being talked about?
Did u even watch the whole video?
@@vlonecartie2796 It's not about the video, it's about reading the manga. Gohan is portrayed as stronger. He bodies Super Buu with ease when Goku couldn't even compete. He fought a losing battle against Gotenks Buu, but wasn't outright slaughtered. Kid Buu is not as powerful as Super Buu, his Ki briefly rose when he became buff buu, but settled back down. Throughout the entire show, Gohans potential was a focus. Even narratively speaking, why would it make sense for Goku to be stronger at End of Z. Gohan is the strongest infused character at the End of Z without a doubt
@Martin Ramirez Just because some TH-camrs say so? Yeah, no.
@@Yayopup Gohan didn't train after the buu saga so no on strongest at the End of Z, it was never stated that Kid Buu got weaker when he stopped being Buff Buu that's what i call headcanon (he even says in the video and it's probably not in the manga either if you actually checked) and he uses multiple sources to back his point while you used none.
I think this was a solid vid! Well played
I never took the whole SSJ Goku beating Ultimate Gohan copy cause he couldn't even beat Fat Boo as SSJ2 and that would imply Ult. Gohan is weaker than Fat Boo even though we just saw him wreck a stronger version of Boo. And if Goku did get a boost by coming back to life, it would have to be an insane boost for him to beat Ult. Gohan in just SSJ.
Or Goku took a Zenkai boost as a bonus, when he was resurected.
Did you not watch the vid
@@Borgdrohne13 But zenkai boosts are supposed to be recovering after near death, not straight up resurrection. But since Vegeta became stronger after resurrection, what can I do.
Love your vids
I only take the manga into consideration
Gohan has the potential of unlocking more power if he trained as long as Goku or Vegeta
Duh
I was pretty sure that Chuck has already said that Buuhan was the strongest Buu now here he is saying its Kid Buu? Biased much?
In the manga kid buu > buuhan.
Anime it's the opposite.
Yo Yo no it’s the other way around
Anime/guides-Kid buu>Buuhan
Manga-Buuhan>kid buu
Buuhan is the strongest easily in both
Toddles no the anime says kid Buu is on a completely different level than all the other buu’s up until that point and that he is the strongest and that his power actually had increased from super buu
The manga doesn’t say any of that tho and pretty much is confirmed that Buuhan is the strongest
@@theheavenlybuddha1183 manga is source material therefore what it says is what we take. Buuhan is the strongest and even if you look at it, goku and vegeta needed to fuse to beat buuhan but goku just beats kid buu on his own
YO! Chuck I would like to debate on this. First off all I really like you’re videos and I’m almost always agreeing with all of your video including the once you do with Seth. You’re videos are enjoyable and I especially like the videos you and Seth debunk other videos. It was a few point you made that I would debate on if you’re interested. Some points being
•goku black receiving zenkai’s mid fight
• the gotenks vs buu fight
• the goku vs "fake" gohan fight
• kid buu being the strongest Majin
I really hope you respond because if you have counters to my argument I will have more facts to use next time I am debating someone on this topic
I restarted this video 5x. Gd work
It’ll be interesting to re watch the boo arc with all this in mind
What's the song playing in the background at 1:24 ?
A jojo theme idk what song
Thanks I'll find it 👍
Bruh I have wanted this video so badly thank you so much. I still love this type of content!
8:33
This is the scene, where Lr Goku and Vegeta's card art from DBZ Dokkan Battle, is from.
I don't know what to think of this version of Goku being stronger than we thought.
There are evidence, statements and guids, along with showing comparisons of one character to another, but when it comes to dragon ball, continuity wise, it makes it hard to believe.
Cause over the years, Dragonball keeps making a steep slope for itself, the writers have the characters make statements that contradicts their actions, and if you see one character in Super, like two SSJ Blues, going against a Super Vegito being nearly even....the Vegito of Buu Saga.
*(Reason I say this is because of Dragon Ball Legends, they show the People from the TOP, mainly the universe 6 Saiyans who was equal to the protagonist of the story mode, which the protagonist was near or at Buu Saga levels of power, but based on what was shown, Fat Buu would had decimated the Universe 6 Saiyans, no difficulty)
I don't know if that Buu was stronger than the anime version, but I still couldn't see that Buu going toe to toe with ssj3 Gotanks from the anime.
Even if it's not cannon to the anime, it still wouldn't make sense that the universe 6 Saiyans were that weak, or they were at those levels to being with, but became stronger in TOP......which surpassed all of buu characters then and there......I just wish for continuity for power scaling for any show, game, comic, manga, (or to sum it, fiction in general) what's wrong with that?
0:39 LMFAO YO THAT WAS HILARIOUS
Chuck please debunk Mob vs Tatsumaki Death Battle
Wow you keep changing my mind I was surprised so I did some digging of my own and you are probably or most likely right
How about these?
Vegeta after being brought back to life on Namek vs Frieza
What if Vegeta fought Mecha Frieza would he last as he trained in space.
I've also always felt Vegeta did get a boost after dieting against fat buu even back then I just put it as he was on par if not alittle stronger than majin vegeta from a after death zenkai
A good portion of this video talks about stuff from the anime-but if it's not in the manga it's not really canon-which I don't usually care about normally but considering this is a power scaling argument it's better to take from the manga. Not a lot of stuff is explicitly stated one way or another-and the line about them still not being able to handle super buu with no absorptions but fighting kid buu just doesn't make sense. (And I don't think it makes any sense for goku to lie in that scenario.) Personally, I still think it goes Fat buu >ssj1 gotenks > Sjj3 goku > Super buu > ssj3 gotenks > ultimate gohan
Akira toriyama said that the anime is the expansion of manga. He literally said all of the anime is canon whatever canon means
Holy shit it’s chuck the cyber simp.
Loved the vid btw I love your analysis of the differences between the manga and anime!
This was a lot more complicated than which Buu was more powerful. I think Kid Buu was at first weaker than Super Buu, but as the fight between him and Goku went on. Kid Buu was growing in power where as Goku was getting weaker. Gohan should still be more powerful than Goku I think as not only does it make sense power scaling, but in the anime they both fought Super Buu (Gotenks & Piccolo absorbed) with Gohan almost lasting the whole 30 mins where its clear that Ssj 3 Goku was just trying to stall for time and Buu thought that he could be both Goku and Gohan even if they teamed up against him. I think at the least the power gap between them is less and I think one reason why could be that Goten and Trunks are possibly Ssj where as Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan have become full powered Ssj
Good vid, could you powerscale GT next?
Video on how the lore says vegito is the stronger fusion but plot has him with less canon and non canon wins then gogeta
I´ve always supported the idea that Toei wanted Goku to be percieved as the superior one, given the fact that (anime) Goku was keeping up against Gotenks Buu while Gohan got curbstomped to death and in movie 13 Gohan was slapped silly by Hirudegarn while Goku not only got the upperhand but ultimately bested him. Oh and yeah, that bit inside Buu when Goku on SSJ matched Gohan´s illusion. Great vid btw!
2:48 the multiplier for SSJ3 is 8x that of SSJ2 so that'd mean that if all 3 were equal, which they weren't, he'd still be 2 & 2/3 times stronger than that
9:34
I don't think this should really be taken into account fr
If u think about it, goku blacks Zenkais were pretty cheap
As goku and Vegeta should've BEEN able to wash all their opponents if the zenkais DURING fighting were true.
Meanwhile there was a noticeable difference in power AFTER recovering.
miss u chuck - Kanzo
Me: alright, another video! It's only been about a month, that's not that bad.
Chuck: So about a millennia ago
😂😂
I think it’s obvious that buuhan is the strongest version of buu. Goku and vegeta literally had no choice but to fuse and go super saiyan on top of that. Goku was able to hang with kid buu by himself. Even accounting for zenkai boost, he wouldn’t have gotten more powerful than vegitto in such a short time. Also it only makes sense that buuhan would be the strongest. The only time buu fusion resulted in less power was when he absorbed the supreme Kai and became fat buu. Which was only due to his good nature. Otherwise it results in a power boost. It wouldn’t make sense that a buu that has three saiyans absorbed would be less powerful than one that doesn’t. Kid buu was the most dangerous because he was so unpredictable and had less intelligence compared to super buu. Kid buu couldn’t even talk. He was all about fighting. It just seemed like he was more powerful cuz he ain’t give a fuck and would just destroy shit for no reason. You literally can’t talk to him, it’s meaningless.
This was a great take 💯
Glad u think so
Another argument for super buu being weaker than pure buu (kid) is that super buu essentially absorbed good buu which could have weakened his pure power, and since pure buu no longer has good buu in his body he is no longer held back.
Gotenks I feel like he was but Ultimate Gohan I don't think so
Lord Yamcha ultimate gohan was the beyond the level of goku
Lord Yamcha if that was the case then goku would had destroyed buutenks when he got back to earth to fuse with gohan
But I am looking at the video right so who knows you may be able to change my mind
Counting the strongest from of the characters in DBZ the list of top 10 strongest and most powerfull characters at the end of manga and anime series: 1. Vegetto, 2. Majan Buu, 3. Gohan, 4. Goku, 5. Gottenks, 6. Vegeta, 7. Cell, 8. Dabura, 9. Future Trunks, 10. Suprime Kai. In DBS so fare: 1. Omni King, 2. Grand Prieast, 3. Angels, 4. Goku, 5. Jiren, 6. Gods of destruction, 7. Vegeta, 8. Toppo, 9. Freeza, 10. Android 17. In DB at the end: 1. Goku, 2. Piccolo, 3. Kami, 4. King Picolo, 5. Mr Popo, 6. Tien, 7. Korin, 8. Master Roshi, 9. Tao Pai Pai, 10. Jadarobie.
The same guide that claimed kid buu was the strongest also stated he was created by Babidi which we know is false.
Kid buu is deffinetly the most pure and unpredictable of the forms but strongest? Not going by feats performed or Statements from most characters.
Buu himself stated with Gohan absorbed he was the strongest form of Buu and he was aware of his original form. And not only Goku but Vegeta in SS2 was able to hold off kid Buu for a significant amount of time and overall peform better than other forms of Buu.
The fact Goku didn't even entertain the idea of fighting later forms of Buu and it makes no sense to lie about it, he is always up front whether he thinks he can win or loose a fight.
Vegeta also never saw ultimate Gohan prior to inside Buu so he wouldn't be aware of how strong he is so his "Goku strongest" statement doesn't really hold up.
As using DB super for examples just doesn't work, the power scaling is beyond silly and the differences between the anime and Manga are too large.
In the original manga it was stated that babidi created buu but it was later retconed by Toriyama
And why are u mixing if u are only looking at the manga because ss2 Goku never fought kid buu in the manga
Goku at first said he couldn't beat fat buu but later on says he could have killed him
Vegeta knows the full power of buuhan and he knows the full power of super buu so he can easily gauge how strong is Gohan is
@@shreyaankhanna4986 The fact it was retcon is irrelevant it still throws into question the validity of the source, also I never said Goku fought kid Buu is ss2, I said even Vegeta in the form was able to put up somewhat of a fight against Buu.
Also saying Vegeta knows how strong Gohan is doesn't make much sense as that Buu had absorbed many of the other Z fighters including Gotenks. So no there isn't any indication that Vegeta knew how strong Gohan became.
Yes they rescued him from Buu but he was unconscious the entire time.
@@BigHeadClan buuhan = super buu + Gohan + goten + trunks + piccolo Vegeta knows the power of super buu and buuhan so probably in his head he did Gohan must be as powerful as the difference between the power of buuhan and super buu minus the power of gotten trunks and piccolo
Jess. This is historic and classic debate since early and primitive Internet with 2000s...
Anime: Yes. Goku Ssj3 and Kid Buu stomps Gohan and Gotenks Ssj3.
Manga: Definitly no. Gohan and Gotenks stomp Goku Ssj3.
A king is back! Thank you for such great videos. Love knowing more on my favorite series. Thank you for such good content.
Any time Goku is hinted to be stronger than Gohan at the endpoint of Z is just bad writing/inconsistency. I only take the manga, because every other source is hella inconsistent. ESPECIALLY Super. Super should NEVER be used to power scale Z.
In DBS when Gohan regained the ability to tap into his full potential the promotional material and guides state “that Gohan once again regained a power that surpassed Goku” sooo🤷🏿♂️