There is a lack of clarity at the moment surrounding whether the Mission Tactics buffs apply to all Space Marines or just to Deathwatch units with the Mission Tactics keyword. Without going into too much detail, it seems RAW it applies to all marines as long as you have at least one unit with Mission Tactics on the board or in reserves, and this is how LVO judges ruled in their FAQ. But RAI I'd guess it's not supposed to work that way.
We missed how Fortis kill teams can take two Desolation Marines. Per point I think the standard vet squad is better still, in no small part because of the amount of Necrons you'll find in the meta, but having those two sets of guns in the squad does mean it has some play for sure. Indirect with lethals and access to ignores cover and full hit rerolls is pretty strong!
At the moment it looks like only MissionTactics keyworded units get the mission tactics. "At the start of your Command phase, you can select one of the Mission Tactics listed below. Until the start of your next Command phase, that Mission Tactic is active and its effects apply to all units from your army "WITH THIS ABILITY". Each Mission Tactic can only be selected once per battle."
Good catch, you're right. I think you're so incentivized take Kill Teams already that it's not a big problem, all the lists I've written have at least four, with the remainder of the units being support, trash and a Callidus.
@@AdeptusPaternus Yeah I agree, and personally don't mind it as I think the Killteams are actually good. Not to mention a flavor win. Just wanted to point it out though because I've seen a lot of people suggesting vehicles and units based on the tactics that don't benefit from them.
@@brendanbrown5935 yeah I remember seeing someone running three repulsor executioners at LVO last year with the old index, and they did pretty well just on the backs of that...
So it turns out that GW muffed the wording, and the ability ends up being one that buffs every unit with the Adeptus Astartes keyword, which means you just need one unit with the mission tactics keyword and it buffs every space marine in your list. RAW, ruled as such by the judges at LVO, but definitely not RAI.
Hellfire Rounds are very good into elite infantry. Indomitor KT or even Fortis and spectrus KT firing into Termies and wounding them on 2 is good. And Kraken Rounds are so good for the Melta Gun Indomitors. 24" Melta Guns with -5AP are very nice.
Yeah personally I'm planning on running a Gravis Cap with Indomitor to get kraken rounds free every turn, the deep strike in melta range is just too good. But I could see using the watch master's free strat on Hellfire rounds vs Custodes. That matchup seems very favorable to Deathwatch, phew.
I still really wish they had reworked the Watchmaster's datasheet to have the combo of the Watch Master ability along with a CP Generate ability (like other Chapter Master equivalents) instead of the Shoot/Charge ability. It makes more sense for him to be the strategic leader of the army issuing orders from the command center, and that way they could make a different unit (like maybe Artemis) be the intended frontline combat leader through the same combo that OG Index Watch Master had (Vect plus the Advance/Fallback and Shoot/Charge).
So long as the watch master ability to reduce the cost of a strat by 1 CP is named differently from the captain ability, I won't complain. Two free strats a turn is great. I actually think it's potentially even better than CP generation, because that doesn't stack with discarding a secondary. But both generating CP AND a free strat would be OP for sure.
@@AdeptusPaternus The interaction with discarding secondaries did not occur to me, and that is a very good observation. And yes I agree that tripling down on the CP economy would be too blatantly OP, but the part of me that is pushing for this change is the same part that place more importance on lore/tabletop synergy vs competitive game balance.
Hear me out. Gravis Captain with Thief of Secrets, Watchmaster, 3x5man Deathwatch Vets with your melee loadout. 3x Indomitor Killteams with Bolters and Meltas, skip the Aggressors and 2x Talonstrike Teams with the bolters. 2k even. Talonstrike starts in Deep Strike. First turn use Site To Site to put two Indomitor Teams up. Turn 2. Deathdrop. Activate Malleus Tactics for Lethal Hits. 2 Talonstrike KT and 2 Indomitor KT and drop nearly 1200 points wherever you want and unleash hell.
I've already seen a local list do well with one of the Indomitor units dropping the aggressors in one out of three units, it does make a certain amount of sense, though I think I would still want the unit with the thief Gravis Cap to have em for the all rounder unit. It's also not a bad idea to have some means of clearing chaff. Indomitors are criminally undercosted, and if GW is paying attention I expect them to be more expensive than Talonstrikes soon. Enjoy it while you can. Regarding your list, I do think I'd swap one five man vets for a callidus. Helps with the secondaries and vect is a must take in the starshatter meta.
I think there's some risk in relying too heavily on Indomitors, if your opponent can just put trash in front of whatever you want them to hit hard, they'll waste their big strength bonus. Sure, you could try to clear the screen with Talonstrike bolters first, but at a certain point you just can't fit that many 40mm bases in one place.
@@TheSaavyFarmers I'm also using Fortis KT with the indirect rocket launchers and Deathwatch Vets. So I so far have been able to clear chaff away and then unload the Indomitors. But even without the plus +2 to strength they hit hard. Damage 2 and bolt weapons -2 AP before strats is good. The Heavy Bolter especially has been amazing. I wish I could take more of them. Let me put 4 of those Heavy Bolters on the Corvus Blackstar.
What's crazy about it too is it's not even like you can stop it with overwatch, since the little JPI dudes can soak it up for the inceptors. Just have to try to screen.
Thankfully no, due to the Rules Commentary section "Unit's Toughness Characteristic", which states: "If an Attached unit contains models with different Toughness characteristics, for the purpose of determining that unit's Toughness characteristic, use the highest Toughness characteristic amongst that unit's Bodyguard models."
Indomitor is not battle line, so the Inquisitor can not join them. It's Hvy Inter only. Even if it's Hyv Inter, you can't use teleport on a Kill team and non-Kill team, it must be two kill teams, so that can't work.
@@AdeptusPaternus If a TO considers the Indomitor squad battle line, then by that logic the Fortis kill team would be battle line too. But both are not labeled with Battleline, is the logic behind that debate just because Hvy Ints in the squad are battleline in their own unit?
@@Sanctjud the argument is that the Indomitor datasheet says that if a leader can join a heavy intercessor squad, it can join this unit, and an inquisitor can join a heavy intercessor squad, therefore by transitivity it can join an Indomitor kill team. This was an open question with the original index too, and GW never issued a clarification.
There is a lack of clarity at the moment surrounding whether the Mission Tactics buffs apply to all Space Marines or just to Deathwatch units with the Mission Tactics keyword. Without going into too much detail, it seems RAW it applies to all marines as long as you have at least one unit with Mission Tactics on the board or in reserves, and this is how LVO judges ruled in their FAQ. But RAI I'd guess it's not supposed to work that way.
We missed how Fortis kill teams can take two Desolation Marines. Per point I think the standard vet squad is better still, in no small part because of the amount of Necrons you'll find in the meta, but having those two sets of guns in the squad does mean it has some play for sure. Indirect with lethals and access to ignores cover and full hit rerolls is pretty strong!
At the moment it looks like only MissionTactics keyworded units get the mission tactics.
"At the start of your Command phase, you can select one of the Mission Tactics listed below. Until the start of your next Command phase, that Mission Tactic is active and its effects apply to all units from your army "WITH THIS ABILITY". Each Mission Tactic can only be selected once per battle."
Good catch, you're right. I think you're so incentivized take Kill Teams already that it's not a big problem, all the lists I've written have at least four, with the remainder of the units being support, trash and a Callidus.
@@AdeptusPaternus Yeah I agree, and personally don't mind it as I think the Killteams are actually good. Not to mention a flavor win. Just wanted to point it out though because I've seen a lot of people suggesting vehicles and units based on the tactics that don't benefit from them.
@@brendanbrown5935 yeah I remember seeing someone running three repulsor executioners at LVO last year with the old index, and they did pretty well just on the backs of that...
So it turns out that GW muffed the wording, and the ability ends up being one that buffs every unit with the Adeptus Astartes keyword, which means you just need one unit with the mission tactics keyword and it buffs every space marine in your list. RAW, ruled as such by the judges at LVO, but definitely not RAI.
I just love the fact that there's still one last loyalist Space Marines chapter where running Rhinos is viable.
It's hard to beat 10+ dudes with high OC in a cheap transport.
Hellfire Rounds are very good into elite infantry. Indomitor KT or even Fortis and spectrus KT firing into Termies and wounding them on 2 is good. And Kraken Rounds are so good for the Melta Gun Indomitors. 24" Melta Guns with -5AP are very nice.
Yeah I don't think you'll never use Hellfire rounds, but given how much CP you'll be spending elsewhere it's definitely niche.
@@AdeptusPaternus I will totally use Hellfire Rounds every turn if I am fighting something like Custodes.
Yeah personally I'm planning on running a Gravis Cap with Indomitor to get kraken rounds free every turn, the deep strike in melta range is just too good. But I could see using the watch master's free strat on Hellfire rounds vs Custodes. That matchup seems very favorable to Deathwatch, phew.
I still really wish they had reworked the Watchmaster's datasheet to have the combo of the Watch Master ability along with a CP Generate ability (like other Chapter Master equivalents) instead of the Shoot/Charge ability. It makes more sense for him to be the strategic leader of the army issuing orders from the command center, and that way they could make a different unit (like maybe Artemis) be the intended frontline combat leader through the same combo that OG Index Watch Master had (Vect plus the Advance/Fallback and Shoot/Charge).
So long as the watch master ability to reduce the cost of a strat by 1 CP is named differently from the captain ability, I won't complain. Two free strats a turn is great. I actually think it's potentially even better than CP generation, because that doesn't stack with discarding a secondary. But both generating CP AND a free strat would be OP for sure.
@@AdeptusPaternus The interaction with discarding secondaries did not occur to me, and that is a very good observation. And yes I agree that tripling down on the CP economy would be too blatantly OP, but the part of me that is pushing for this change is the same part that place more importance on lore/tabletop synergy vs competitive game balance.
@@chinaman8888 Well to that end, I'm just glad we got rules that encourage the use of kill teams that actually feel like better space marines.
Hear me out. Gravis Captain with Thief of Secrets, Watchmaster, 3x5man Deathwatch Vets with your melee loadout. 3x Indomitor Killteams with Bolters and Meltas, skip the Aggressors and 2x Talonstrike Teams with the bolters. 2k even. Talonstrike starts in Deep Strike. First turn use Site To Site to put two Indomitor Teams up. Turn 2. Deathdrop. Activate Malleus Tactics for Lethal Hits. 2 Talonstrike KT and 2 Indomitor KT and drop nearly 1200 points wherever you want and unleash hell.
I've already seen a local list do well with one of the Indomitor units dropping the aggressors in one out of three units, it does make a certain amount of sense, though I think I would still want the unit with the thief Gravis Cap to have em for the all rounder unit. It's also not a bad idea to have some means of clearing chaff.
Indomitors are criminally undercosted, and if GW is paying attention I expect them to be more expensive than Talonstrikes soon. Enjoy it while you can.
Regarding your list, I do think I'd swap one five man vets for a callidus. Helps with the secondaries and vect is a must take in the starshatter meta.
I think there's some risk in relying too heavily on Indomitors, if your opponent can just put trash in front of whatever you want them to hit hard, they'll waste their big strength bonus. Sure, you could try to clear the screen with Talonstrike bolters first, but at a certain point you just can't fit that many 40mm bases in one place.
@@TheSaavyFarmers I'm also using Fortis KT with the indirect rocket launchers and Deathwatch Vets. So I so far have been able to clear chaff away and then unload the Indomitors. But even without the plus +2 to strength they hit hard. Damage 2 and bolt weapons -2 AP before strats is good. The Heavy Bolter especially has been amazing. I wish I could take more of them. Let me put 4 of those Heavy Bolters on the Corvus Blackstar.
Played against my friend’s deathwatch and the drop in kill team erased a leman Russ with the plasmaceptors. AP 5 is crazy good.
What's crazy about it too is it's not even like you can stop it with overwatch, since the little JPI dudes can soak it up for the inceptors. Just have to try to screen.
GW really wants gravis deathwatch to be a thing, huh?
Looks like it, but who am I to argue?
I am very excited to see this on the table and I'm very glad deathwatch is back in action.
P.S. This is the first comment woot!!!
I'm excited to bring it!
HOW DARE YOU PRIORITIZE YOUR CHILDREN OVER YOUR AUDIENCE REE!!! Nah congrats on being dads lol.
At least we get to do these even with a few unchecked boxes on the honey do list...
If you add a Captain to the Talonstrike, the first attack that hits them will use T4 rather than T6.
Thankfully no, due to the Rules Commentary section "Unit's Toughness Characteristic", which states: "If an Attached unit contains models with different Toughness characteristics, for the purpose of determining that unit's Toughness characteristic, use the highest Toughness characteristic amongst that unit's Bodyguard models."
Indomitor is not battle line, so the Inquisitor can not join them. It's Hvy Inter only. Even if it's Hyv Inter, you can't use teleport on a Kill team and non-Kill team, it must be two kill teams, so that can't work.
Ask your TO if you can bring an inquisitor with an Indomitor squad. There's an open debate, some allow it some don't.
@@AdeptusPaternus If a TO considers the Indomitor squad battle line, then by that logic the Fortis kill team would be battle line too. But both are not labeled with Battleline, is the logic behind that debate just because Hvy Ints in the squad are battleline in their own unit?
@@Sanctjud the argument is that the Indomitor datasheet says that if a leader can join a heavy intercessor squad, it can join this unit, and an inquisitor can join a heavy intercessor squad, therefore by transitivity it can join an Indomitor kill team. This was an open question with the original index too, and GW never issued a clarification.
@@Sanctjudby the way thank you for all the comments!