FYI, Lexi, I think you need to edit this comment, and the video description if that's possible. Your sponsor is The Lord of the Rings: *Heroes of* Middle-earth. The Lord of the Rings: *The Battle for* Middle-earth is a very different game!
Congratulations on being sponsored by a relatively big company. Hopefully, more sponsors will come. Steven of The Red Book said he turned their sponsorship down. Maybe you can contact him and find out why.
It's a long, long road to get from 'only jock in a family of nerds, Dog Person, hero of the Falas, Aredhel's platonic(?) BFF, and Disney-princess-level Friend To All Beasts' to... um, well... you know.... 😅
Spoiler alert: Congratulations to Maeglin for this great win. Hardly among the favourites from the outset, nevertheless he creeped his way to the top, overcoming such mighty competitors as Melkor Morgoth and the maia Curunir through sheer force of attempted murder and incestuous lust. In his acceptance speech, Maeglin counted his father amongst his inspirations, and thanked Turgon without whose trust he would never have achieved this impressive feat.
I love that you absolutely but very subtly roasted your sponsor at the beginning "Speaking of putting short term material gain ahead of moral integrity here's my sponsor" Lmao
More a self-roast 😆 though it was nice to get an offer to highlight a product that's *somewhat* relevant to my content/audience, and getting a sponsorship means I can minimize video ads. Win/win.
@@GirlNextGondor hell yes, get paid! Your content is great and I'm delighted you are receiving payment for it. GNG content is one of the few LOTR channels that isn't just recaps of the books I've already read, but instead has such unique breakdowns and theories for how things work in Middle Earth. It's so good for inspiring new thought and making new connections.
@@istari0, I think Feanor really, truly thought he was smart and determined enough to find a way to win against the most powerful being in the world. He didn't have a plan, but he was utterly confident that he could follow his impulses and improvise his way to victory. If Feanor were alive today, he would be overpaying for a social media company, then renaming it to the Tengwar letter for F.
If all he had to ruin was a social media company, at least that wouldn't have killed all those people. He was one of those exceptionally smart and arrogance people who couldn't realize he wasn't as smart as he thought he was.
"Even a run-in with Túrin Turambar can't substantially worsen his position" 🤣🤣🤣 I did not realize the Petty Dwarves reached Beleriand even before the Elves migrating west from Cuiviénen did. It makes me wonder what the first encounters between Elves and any of the Dwarves were like. Personally, I'd bump Saruman up to #3 at least and possibly all the way to #1. He came perilously close to getting the One Ring and if he had, one way or another, that would have led to the downfall of the Free Peoples. I would have Fëanor on the list. His first action as leader of the Noldor was to betray his own people. Yes, he really only cared about himself but that can be said for many traitors, such as Maeglin. Speaking of Maeglin, I really do like your analysis of the question of whether he was coerced into helping Morgoth or was the only Elf to willingly aid a Dark Lord. It appears the answer is 'Yes.' I have to object to the inclusion of Beregond and Huan. Huan rebelled against the evil actions of his master; it was clearly the right thing to do. Beregond was put in a no-win scenario. To continue following the orders of the insane Denethor would have amounted to following "illegal orders" to use a more modern term. Great video, thanks!
You're welcome! Re: early Dwarven/Elven relations: it's interesting to think how by the time of LotR everyone is familiar with the 'personhood' of other groups; you'd never mistake a Dwarf for an Elf but it seems you'd reflexively categorize both as a form of person, the same order of being as a Man or Hobbit and distinct from an animal (Orcs, I suppose, are something of a gray area?...) But Tolkien suggests this may not always have been the case 😂I suppose the mutual experiences of the Elves and Dwarves encoutering each other would be like coming across a Sasquatch? Clearly similar in shape to a Proper Person, but different enough that your first reaction would likely be terrified hostility, and you certainly wouldn't *assume* you could communicate with it.
Well, remember the seven pairs of Drarves were spread around Middle Earth right after being created; they "slumbered" until sometime after the Elves awakened. So some Dwarves were already in the West when they woke up, and the Elves hadn't had time to get there yet. I guess a little time was required for the first Dwarves to produce a bit of population and society, and for some to get "kicked out" to become the Petty Dwarves. But it sounds like it took a long time for the Elves to get over to the West.
I always pitied Mim... his story is so tragic, so much is taken from him that it’s difficult to blame him for what he did. He already lost almost everything when he met Turin, and when they finally meet Mim loses his son for... an accident? Many people would be driven mad by this, but Mim had already suffered so much that it’s more of a reminder of how cruel life has been to him. When you live an entire existence full of pain and misery, with close to no happiness to cling on, the wounds on your soul become far too deep to be healed by one glimmer of goodness. There’s always a possibility of redemption, as Tolkien teaches, but there’s also a point of no return. So much was taken from Mim that I wonder what he could ever hope for. Our world has a lot of stories like his, and we should do everything we can to give these torn lives a sliver of hope.
All Petty Dwarves were excommunicated from their realms for things they did. That means Mîm was a bad Dwarf from the beginning. And even worse, he dragged his sons away from Belegost or Nogrod with him. They both got killed. That is how you lower the Dwarf population.
I do think it's possible to push a person so far there's just nothing left inside them that can "latch on" to any values. Very sad when that happens to someone. I guess the Orcs show us what happens when a being gets pushed even further than that.
Any oath made to bandits at the threat of one's life is no true oath but only coercion. Mim had no responsibility to protect the lives of men who slayed his son, threatened his life, and stole his home. There is no dishonor in betraying such men you have no duty to protect. Despite the other heroic deeds of Turin, here Turin behaved as a villian and is treated as such.
I'm shocked you mentioned Samwise Gamgee as a model of loyalty, when he was, early on, a most perfidious conspirator and spy, even after being confronted by Gandalf while being caught literally eavesdropping. Even later on, he was guilty of very serious insubordination on multiple occasions. And what about Bilbo Baggins: Betrayed Thorin by pilfering the Arkenstone and then giving it away to Thorin's foes; and betrayed the ancient honor of the riddle-game to get the Ring from poor Smeagol. A very tricksy hobbit indeed. Faramir: Notorious lover of Elves, Wizards, and old tales over family and Gondor. More seriously, both Saruman and Grima deserved higher billing, if for nothing else than their capacity to betray first one set of allies, and then the ally they committed the original betrayal for. edit: Actually that construction doesn't work for Saruman. I should have said something more like, "...capacity to betray allies and frenemies, old and new."
VERY tricksy figures, indeed! If I were going to attempt a serious defense of my choices I might say something about betrayal being different than disobedience or secret-keeping; Sam was, of course, always acting in Frodo's best interests and the only 'vow 'he ever made was to follow him no matter where he went. Meanwhile Thorin and Co made it clear from the outset that they only wanted Bilbo's company in a professional context, going so far as to draw up a contract - all Bilbo did was comply with the contract's terms. Thorin *felt* betrayed, but by his own reasoning he shouldn't have 😂 I can say nothing in Faramir's defense, though. Sometimes despite the best breeding and education you just get a bad apple.
I'd have switch Saruman and Gollum. Smeagel had a treacherous streak since the moment the ring caught his mind and really anyone dealing with him for long should've figured that out. He was already least loved of his clan, which probably didn't help. Dude's brain was broken. Saruman, however, was the head of the Council and a demi-god/angel sent specifically to help the world deal with Sauron. To quote Tree-beard "A wizard should know better!"
Questionable forestry choices always bring people down. Brilliant, entertaining video as usual. Your content makes me so happy ❤ No one deserves sponsorship more than you, so I'm even happier than i would be otherwise with such an excellent video.
Best boi. Better to turn traitor then suffer the prognosis associated with a case of "late-stage Celegorm." ('Cracked up deeply at that turn of phrase.)
I have to take exception to the inclusion of Beregond and Huan, even in honorable mention. Betrayal is only possible when the person betrayed is worthy and deserving of loyalty. Both Denethor and Celegorm had forfeited any right to such expectation by virtue of their own reprehensible and dishonorable deeds. Both Beregond and Huan were faced with either allowing what they knew was wrong or risking their own lives to stand for what they knew was right. Both chose righteously and are remembered as heroes. Neither deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Gollum, Grima or even Feanor. Just my two cents.
I also think it’s a stretch to include these two. The old excuse of “…just following orders” is no longer acceptable, either morally or legally. The Nuremberg trials and Geneva Convention established that. So have the militaries of democratic countries. And in Tolkien’s world as well, subordinates have innate moral responsibilities independent of and transcending any man made law or outward “chain of command.” The people who hid Anne Frank’s had a duty under Nazi occupation law to turn her over. It’s a moral outrage to call them traitors. Ditto for any German citizen who resisted the Nazis and aided the Allies. Blind obedience to technically lawful authority is not in itself a virtue. Quite the reverse.
Another (dis)honorable mention should go to Gorlim. Promised a reunion with his missing wife by Sauron, he betrayed his lord Barahir and got him and most of his party killed. At which point Sauron revealed that Gorlim's wife was dead and he would indeed be reunited with her - in death.
Does the Hobbit Conspiracy that foils Frodo's secret plan to leave The Shire count as treachery? I mean, if Beregond and Huan get honourable mentions for betraying their masters, then might Merry, Pippin, and Sam also - thanks to their betrayal of Frodo's trust and/or generally being (to quote CGP Grey) Top Sneaky?
You mentioned the ships, but could Feanor's abandonment of the Noldor in the Helcaraxe be considered a betrayal? He effectively left them there to freeze to death (or, at the very least, without any regard to their well-being) in his desire to speed up his pursuit of Morgoth.
As far as he knew at the time, he was leaving them to die and it would have cost him very little to send the ships back for them. That's about as betrayal-y as it gets.
I'm guessing you don't specialize in divorce law, but can we agree that screaming that one accepts death both for oneself and on behalf of one's offspring before hurling a bioweapon at them is not likely to garner the court's sympathy? 🤣
Beards? Walls??? Nah, I'm gonna threaten to throw a "like" as if I was Throrin Oakenshield threatening to throw a treaturous burglar off the walls of Erebor!
“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.” ― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves What you said about trust the beginning reminded me of this.
Ted Sandyman and Lotho Sackville-Baggins are on my list. The others just threatend the existance of the whole world, or similar, these 2 made a serious mess of The Shire. Enjoyed that, a well made and reasoned vid.
My god, I’m not super newly introduced to GirlNextGondor, but what a great name! It gets me every time. And great content. I haven’t read the Silmarillion myself yet but have it. I’ve watched a couple different LOTR TH-cam channels and I’m happy I was able to get through most of their content and then find GirlNextGondor. Truly a unique but always faithful and a bit more academic take on Tolkiens creations that is refreshing.
Of course the Ring is a betrayer. Remember that Sauron put the lion's share of his spirit into it, and as Gandalf says, Sauron is "the base master of treachery."
So good! I’m only part way through but it made my day seeing this video pop up on my lunch break. Favorite insight so far: Beleg is the greatest contribution the Sindar have ever made. 😂 Agreed! Well, off to work. Will excitedly get back to this when I’m off 😊
While it doesn't necessarily apply here, one of my favorite elves is Eol, the Dark Elf. I like elves; they are my favorite D&D race, and several of my own favorite LotR characters, like Cirdan, are elves, but I do tend to give Tolkien's elves guff for always appearing SO perfect. It's why I like Feanor; he has serious flaws, but Eol is worse. I like Eol because there really is no excuse for his evil; he was never tainted, nor tempted, by Morgoth, or threatened into performing evil acts. Somewhere, deep down, he just has something wrong with him, and he's a wonderful example of how even Eru's perfect race, who received every advantage, could just be bad. I appreciate that because it brings the elves, at least for me, a little more in line with everyone else, and even takes a bit of the shine off of them.
Yeah... he's a great baddie. I remember reading as a kid and being very confused by this character because he was inexplicably evil, but also very compelling.
Great stuff GNG. Three comments to make. First I have real trouble deciding if the brief spell of truly loyal service from Gollum, makes his betrayal worse or ameliorates it. Second. I feel that the ring betrays all it touches even in truth it’s maker. Third it is easy to work out why you chose this topic… you did it for the meme. Thanks and keep up the great work.
I enjoyed the video, and you definitely got the top two right, however, I feel like Celegorm and Curufin belonged on this list. While not working with the enemy, they did his work. Getting Nargothrond to turn against the leadership of the greatest elf that ever lived is most certainly high treason. For their selfish ambition, they got Finrod killed (and nearly Beren too), and doomed the later union of Maedhros by earning the distrust and hatred of Nargothrond (after the elves there finally came to their senses) and Doriath. Even with just Nargothrond in the fold (Thingol still would likely sit out the fight), the Elves and Edain would have not needed the traitorous Easterlings to potentially win the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The losses would have been catastrophic, yes, but the scales of power were still fairly balanced at that point. My theory is that this great battle would have actually occurred much sooner, as Finrod and Maehdros would form the union soon after Beren came to Nargothrond, with the understanding that the Sons of Feanor could keep their two silmarils and then negotiate to buy the one promised to Thingol by Beren later. The Eastern Force in this case would be smaller but without traitors, but the Western Force would add a large force Nargothrond to Fingon's Host that would otherwise be the same it would be as the history played out. This battle I believe would be a toss up, however, the wildcards would be Luthien and Idril. I could see a scenario where Luthien escapes and rides off to join Beren in the battle, resulting in Thingol pursuing her north with a host of fresh troops that could turn the tide of the battle. Idril also could turn the tide, as her gift of foresight could lead her to see that the Elves chance at victory was her leading a second force from Gondolin, as I believe the force Turgon of 10,000 led was but a tithe of the city's true strength. This theory actually corresponds with Tolkien's earlier drafts, wherein Ulmo wanted Gondolin and Nargothrond to meet Morgoth's hosts in the field with their full strength, and we must also remember the vagueness of the Tears Unnumbered Prophesy that left open the possibility of the Elves still winning, so long as it came at a devastating cost. Back to my original point though... THEY GOT FINROD KILLED!!!!!!!!!!!
My love for the Middle Feanorians is only rivalled by my hatred for those who contributed to Finrod's demise. As you can imagine it's a complicated relationship....
@@GirlNextGondor yes, the Feanorians are definitely interesting, and I genuinely like Maglor and Maedhros and understand their side of the "falling out" with the Valar. The videos you did with Helena are some of my favorite TH-cam videos of all time!
I like how Maeglin is clearly meant as an interpretation of Judas, both in means, conduct and consequences. Especially the theme that we can all become like him.
Great video, thank you very much for your work ! I will still nitpick that i don't think Faramir was the reason for Gollum's treachery. We first hear of Cirith Ungol and Shelob when Gollum has a conversation with himself in the marshes and is trying to convince himself to bring Frodo to her to get the ring back. Not long after, when they reach the Black Gate, Gollum panics and tries to stop Frodo from going in by all means, and there he betrays them by convincing them to go through Cirith Ungol without mentioning Shelob and the deal he made with her, despite repeated questions about who is guarding the pass. So the betrayal is actually much sooner than their meeting with Faramir. Sure, Gollum didn't appreciate the mistreatment by Faramir's men, but it didn't change his plans one bit. That only happens in a certain cinematic adaptation of the Book.
Maeglin got first place! Hooray for that "honor"...? Well I am always happy to see discussion about my favorite Legendarium character. I love Maeglin a lot. I think he's very interesting and I do feel bad for him. Not a great person but that's part of what makes him and most of the rest of my favorites (besides Nienna, Vaire, and Goldberry) so compelling to me!
13:10 - Gollum decided to kill Frodo with Shelob's hands and pocket the Ring long before meeting Faramir, although Frodo's role in his capture added another "grief" to justify the treason in Gollum's own eyes. Gollum had devised how to wring out of his oath with Shelo's help before they reached the Black Gate (end of Chapter 2, Two Towers): ‘We wants it! But’ - and here there was a long pause, as if a new thought had wakened. ‘Not yet, eh? Perhaps not. She might help. She might, yes.’ ‘No, no! Not that way!’ wailed Smeagol. ‘Yes! We wants it! We wants it!’
I just chilled listening to you praising Beleg until you once again laughed at Sindar Elves and I feel called out again XDD I love this channel so much, even with my Sindarin screeching
Video was a great watch, and thank you for the amazing organisation in the art work. I wanted that cute Gollum art and it was extremely easy to find the art and the artist. Well done! Obviously worth a subscription.
💖 thank you! Most of these artists are kindly letting me use their work gratis, 'for the good of the fandom.' I'm very glad when I can help get them some exposure and connect with people who appreciate their work in return, good to know it was a user-friendly experience!
The collective ongoing betrayal of everyone by the Feanoreans. It is interesting how Tolkien uses their story in much the same way that GRRM uses the Jamie Lannister/Barristan stories to demonstrate the perils of oaths. Denethor's betrayal of both Faramir and the people of Gondor seems minimally impactful given how awful it was. Sauron's poisonous betrayal, if you can call it that, of the Numenoreans was predictable, though the consequences were unimaginable. The dwarven-smiths betrayal of Elu Thingol was the first domino in one catastrophic occurrence after another, but ultimately led to the intervention of the Valar. And last, the Sackville-Baggins' betrayal of Bilbo and Frodo led to the perpetual discovery of missing silverware.
Sponsorship for our GNG! And a magnificent title for the vid... are we blessed? yes we are! Are we Top 5 Middle Earth traitors? No, of course not. Are asking too many question? No, it's just me, writing/talking to myself like an idiot. Bless you Lexi! I hope you're faring well. Will watch as soon as I can.
Also Lexi, how would you describe and understand Saruman's decline in power? It's clear his voice is no longer "magical" after Gandalf, Theoden and rest of the crew confront him at the foot of the Orthanc. Was it due to his change of purpose and Eru's will he became a spitful, petty bringand-leader or the process occured on its own, as power he wielded as flesh-clad Maia has been spent on foul devices, machines of war and evil creatures? Like a body of water without any connection to river or stream, and without right amount of rain, his powers dried and even not a lowly charm could he conjure anymore.
Excellent video! I love your comment about Beleg being the best addition by the Sindar, youre absolutely right😅 Congrats to Maeglin for taking the top spot👏 I absolutely love his character and chose to view him in the most sympathetic light possible (with a lot of headcanons thrown in) but he arguably deserves to be number one.
Nice to find another Maeglin fan!😄We can (sometimes) be hard to find! He's my favorite character in the Legendarium and I have a lot of headcanons for him too! What are some of your favorites?
There's no fandom for 'problematic faves' like the Tolkien fandom. 😂 I both heartily repudiate Maeglin's deeds and wish to knit him a lovely pair of mittens and encourage him to open up to his therapist(s).
The thing I found most ironic about Saruman's betrayal was that how few people *fully* trusted him, on a personal level. Cirdan and Galadriel both immediately detected something 'off' about him, and Elrond, Gandalf etc. all grew to have reservations about the wisdom of his counsel, at the very least. He does, however, earn a bit of credit back for the sheer audacity of his intent to double-cross *Sauron Himself*.
Wait, Mim is pronounced Meem??? This explains so much about his character, his name was probably the cherry on top of the, "Memed on by the Universe" Cake that Mim probably ate every day
How about Gandalf (and the other eight of the fellowship)? They wilfully took Bill the pony up to the entrance of Moria, knowing that they were going to ditch him at the door to take his chances with the hunting wargs. I think he had good cause to feel a bit betrayed.
@@GirlNextGondor I do find it funny that Frodo got beat up for mushroompicking. As a devoted picker myself I do know how much one guard the secret of ones good places...but not to that extent :)
Beleg in particular deserved better than to exist in 1st Age Beleriand. If it weren't for the whole 'you killed my son and essentially held me for ransom in my own home.' and the Androg angle, I would have put Mim higher.
The source of betrayals in Middle-earth is largely related to the Curse of Mandos (Noldor's Misfortune). The betrayal of the characters is not due to their personal essence, but to the curse they have fallen under. So I think this should be taken into account when judging the characters.
So I googled 'Grima' ('Wormtongue' was an after-name, so probably given after he'd demonstrated tricksy attributes) and it means something like 'mask-helmet'... which is pretty close to ol' Dernhelm (secret-helmet)! Alas for poor Grima, etymology was the closest he *could* get to her in the end....
Good point. But one cannot really say that he betrayed the Elves, any more than Finrod, disguising himself as an Orc, betrayed Morgoth. (However Sauron did betray Aulë, and acted as a spy for Morgoth for a while, back in the day, before switching allegiance openly.)
Before seeing the video, or reading any comments: Maeglin, Saruman, Curufin, Grima, Mim is my list. Let's see how many I got in common... Three of five, plus one more in the honourable mentions. I got 2 placements in common too.
The difference is, Bilbo eventually read the 'Terms and Conditions' that he'd impulsively clicked 'accept' on, and as he points out there was nothing in the contract about *what* could constitute a particular party member's 1/14th share. Contractually, Thorin didn't have a leg to stand on... which is probably a major reason why Bilbo survived to record the incident.
@@GirlNextGondor But I think Thorin esteemed the jewel above all the other treasure. So its very value then is in dispute. Arguably the Arkenstone exceeds 1/14 share. But moreover whethor it is a legit claim or not, I would still call it a personal betrayal.
Great analysis as always. I note a distinct dearth of Second Age content, though. While much slower developing than the betrayals you do cite, what about the Númenorean kings' turn against the Valar? Definitely a blot on the legacy of Eärendil. Did I spell that right?
Turin and his crew murdered Mim's son for no reason, kidnapped him, and occupied his home. It seems to me the "traitor" label means you've turned against your friends or allies. These people were never his friends and allies. Therefore, he's not a traitor. That's my way of thinking, anyway.
@GirlNextGondor Tolkien was very consistent to his personal worldview in this. Eucatastrophic necessity was not merely a literary device in his mind. Arda is fundamentally marred and no one can resist the corruption of power due to Morgoth's abomination.
Matt sold his soul for Bezos Gold. He was clearly Shill of the Year for Amazon. He was rewarded by TH-cam with favorable algorithms that routed all potential subs to his channel. The OG himself, Yoystan, hardly gained any subs during the time the series was playing because he is honorable and loves the lore. Matt saw a way to cash out on the series. He now has all the money he ever dreamed of. It just cost him his soul. Doing a deal with Sauron has its downside. I lost all respect for him. I unsubbed and stopped watching his videos after his last video on the series.
The fact that Frodo got a pass for this episode is a bit of a bummer. His choice not to destroy the ring can be seen as the culmination of the theme of betrayal in the lord of the rings. I think there’s a lot of emphasis put on how the ring takes control of people’s wills but when Frodo speaks at the crack of doom he is very obviously decisive and uses fully first person language as contrasted with how gollum speaks about the ring. Suggesting that whereas gollum is fully subordinated to the ring’s power Frodo is merely “seduced” or perhaps “enticed” or even “deceived” at any rate, that puts him squarely in the category of Saruman at least in terms of traitors.
![🎤 ไปกันต่อออ! จับฉลากร้องเพลง x P’ #XXSIVK [EP.2] (1/2) เพลงของใครจึ้งสุดน้าา 💓🎤 #MXFRUIT](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mLI_K0sAS4o/mqdefault.jpg)
LINK to download Lord of the Rings: Heroes of Middle-earth for free here:
lordoftheringshome.sng.link/Dvft6/yhgc/mlcq
So glad you've got a sponsor, cuz your work is worth supporting!
FYI, Lexi, I think you need to edit this comment, and the video description if that's possible. Your sponsor is The Lord of the Rings: *Heroes of* Middle-earth. The Lord of the Rings: *The Battle for* Middle-earth is a very different game!
@@tathemrelag3123 Ah! Great catch. Thank you! 🥰
@@fredkrissman6527 Thank you!!
Congratulations on being sponsored by a relatively big company. Hopefully, more sponsors will come.
Steven of The Red Book said he turned their sponsorship down. Maybe you can contact him and find out why.
“Late stage Celegorm” is my favourite line of the whole episode.
It's a long, long road to get from 'only jock in a family of nerds, Dog Person, hero of the Falas, Aredhel's platonic(?) BFF, and Disney-princess-level Friend To All Beasts' to... um, well... you know.... 😅
@@GirlNextGondor
You missed the oathbreakers
You are groovier than some other people Girl Next Gondor
He had Stage IV metastatic douchebag syndrome.
"Late Stage Celegorm" is my new band name.
Spoiler alert: Congratulations to Maeglin for this great win. Hardly among the favourites from the outset, nevertheless he creeped his way to the top, overcoming such mighty competitors as Melkor Morgoth and the maia Curunir through sheer force of attempted murder and incestuous lust. In his acceptance speech, Maeglin counted his father amongst his inspirations, and thanked Turgon without whose trust he would never have achieved this impressive feat.
There are so many layers to your comment. Almost as many layers as Maeglin's treachery.
I love that you absolutely but very subtly roasted your sponsor at the beginning
"Speaking of putting short term material gain ahead of moral integrity here's my sponsor"
Lmao
More a self-roast 😆 though it was nice to get an offer to highlight a product that's *somewhat* relevant to my content/audience, and getting a sponsorship means I can minimize video ads. Win/win.
@@GirlNextGondor hell yes, get paid! Your content is great and I'm delighted you are receiving payment for it. GNG content is one of the few LOTR channels that isn't just recaps of the books I've already read, but instead has such unique breakdowns and theories for how things work in Middle Earth. It's so good for inspiring new thought and making new connections.
That's a concise definition of capitalism if I've ever heard one.
Here was me with my fingers crossed for Feanor. Leaving half your people to die when you're their king is a pretty big deal.
*you're 😋
@@themightypen1530 that was not the biggest fault in my sentence thanks for the alert😅
As is leading many of the others into a war you know you can't win.
@@istari0, I think Feanor really, truly thought he was smart and determined enough to find a way to win against the most powerful being in the world. He didn't have a plan, but he was utterly confident that he could follow his impulses and improvise his way to victory.
If Feanor were alive today, he would be overpaying for a social media company, then renaming it to the Tengwar letter for F.
If all he had to ruin was a social media company, at least that wouldn't have killed all those people. He was one of those exceptionally smart and arrogance people who couldn't realize he wasn't as smart as he thought he was.
"Even a run-in with Túrin Turambar can't substantially worsen his position" 🤣🤣🤣
I did not realize the Petty Dwarves reached Beleriand even before the Elves migrating west from Cuiviénen did. It makes me wonder what the first encounters between Elves and any of the Dwarves were like.
Personally, I'd bump Saruman up to #3 at least and possibly all the way to #1. He came perilously close to getting the One Ring and if he had, one way or another, that would have led to the downfall of the Free Peoples.
I would have Fëanor on the list. His first action as leader of the Noldor was to betray his own people. Yes, he really only cared about himself but that can be said for many traitors, such as Maeglin.
Speaking of Maeglin, I really do like your analysis of the question of whether he was coerced into helping Morgoth or was the only Elf to willingly aid a Dark Lord. It appears the answer is 'Yes.'
I have to object to the inclusion of Beregond and Huan. Huan rebelled against the evil actions of his master; it was clearly the right thing to do. Beregond was put in a no-win scenario. To continue following the orders of the insane Denethor would have amounted to following "illegal orders" to use a more modern term.
Great video, thanks!
You're welcome!
Re: early Dwarven/Elven relations: it's interesting to think how by the time of LotR everyone is familiar with the 'personhood' of other groups; you'd never mistake a Dwarf for an Elf but it seems you'd reflexively categorize both as a form of person, the same order of being as a Man or Hobbit and distinct from an animal (Orcs, I suppose, are something of a gray area?...) But Tolkien suggests this may not always have been the case 😂I suppose the mutual experiences of the Elves and Dwarves encoutering each other would be like coming across a Sasquatch? Clearly similar in shape to a Proper Person, but different enough that your first reaction would likely be terrified hostility, and you certainly wouldn't *assume* you could communicate with it.
Well, remember the seven pairs of Drarves were spread around Middle Earth right after being created; they "slumbered" until sometime after the Elves awakened. So some Dwarves were already in the West when they woke up, and the Elves hadn't had time to get there yet. I guess a little time was required for the first Dwarves to produce a bit of population and society, and for some to get "kicked out" to become the Petty Dwarves. But it sounds like it took a long time for the Elves to get over to the West.
I always pitied Mim... his story is so tragic, so much is taken from him that it’s difficult to blame him for what he did. He already lost almost everything when he met Turin, and when they finally meet Mim loses his son for... an accident? Many people would be driven mad by this, but Mim had already suffered so much that it’s more of a reminder of how cruel life has been to him. When you live an entire existence full of pain and misery, with close to no happiness to cling on, the wounds on your soul become far too deep to be healed by one glimmer of goodness. There’s always a possibility of redemption, as Tolkien teaches, but there’s also a point of no return. So much was taken from Mim that I wonder what he could ever hope for. Our world has a lot of stories like his, and we should do everything we can to give these torn lives a sliver of hope.
All Petty Dwarves were excommunicated from their realms for things they did. That means Mîm was a bad Dwarf from the beginning. And even worse, he dragged his sons away from Belegost or Nogrod with him. They both got killed. That is how you lower the Dwarf population.
I tried to pity him, but I've learned in life that people have to want to be helped, otherwise you can't help them. I don't think he wanted help.
I do think it's possible to push a person so far there's just nothing left inside them that can "latch on" to any values. Very sad when that happens to someone. I guess the Orcs show us what happens when a being gets pushed even further than that.
Any oath made to bandits at the threat of one's life is no true oath but only coercion. Mim had no responsibility to protect the lives of men who slayed his son, threatened his life, and stole his home. There is no dishonor in betraying such men you have no duty to protect. Despite the other heroic deeds of Turin, here Turin behaved as a villian and is treated as such.
"Bestest of all possible boys" made me laugh. Good episode!
I'm shocked you mentioned Samwise Gamgee as a model of loyalty, when he was, early on, a most perfidious conspirator and spy, even after being confronted by Gandalf while being caught literally eavesdropping. Even later on, he was guilty of very serious insubordination on multiple occasions.
And what about Bilbo Baggins: Betrayed Thorin by pilfering the Arkenstone and then giving it away to Thorin's foes; and betrayed the ancient honor of the riddle-game to get the Ring from poor Smeagol. A very tricksy hobbit indeed.
Faramir: Notorious lover of Elves, Wizards, and old tales over family and Gondor.
More seriously, both Saruman and Grima deserved higher billing, if for nothing else than their capacity to betray first one set of allies, and then the ally they committed the original betrayal for. edit: Actually that construction doesn't work for Saruman. I should have said something more like, "...capacity to betray allies and frenemies, old and new."
VERY tricksy figures, indeed! If I were going to attempt a serious defense of my choices I might say something about betrayal being different than disobedience or secret-keeping; Sam was, of course, always acting in Frodo's best interests and the only 'vow 'he ever made was to follow him no matter where he went. Meanwhile Thorin and Co made it clear from the outset that they only wanted Bilbo's company in a professional context, going so far as to draw up a contract - all Bilbo did was comply with the contract's terms. Thorin *felt* betrayed, but by his own reasoning he shouldn't have 😂
I can say nothing in Faramir's defense, though. Sometimes despite the best breeding and education you just get a bad apple.
I'd have switch Saruman and Gollum. Smeagel had a treacherous streak since the moment the ring caught his mind and really anyone dealing with him for long should've figured that out. He was already least loved of his clan, which probably didn't help. Dude's brain was broken. Saruman, however, was the head of the Council and a demi-god/angel sent specifically to help the world deal with Sauron. To quote Tree-beard "A wizard should know better!"
This is, by far, one of the funniest titles in the history of Tolkien TH-cam
Questionable forestry choices always bring people down.
Brilliant, entertaining video as usual. Your content makes me so happy ❤ No one deserves sponsorship more than you, so I'm even happier than i would be otherwise with such an excellent video.
Saruman tilled when he shoulda mulched. 😂
Thanks!
nice username
@@tabby_cat Oh, thank you!
'HairTiesForGlorfindel', hehe!
Nooo! You forgot Gorlim the Unhappy, the most Judas-like of all, and the saddest too...
I saw the title and immediately thought of Maeglin. Great minds think alike 😂
My goodness I forgot about Huan!!!! The bestest of treacherous boys!!!
Best boi. Better to turn traitor then suffer the prognosis associated with a case of "late-stage Celegorm." ('Cracked up deeply at that turn of phrase.)
"I'm afraid this Celegorm is inoperable, but with enough barbiturates we can buy you anywhere from 6 months to 50 years until the next Kinslaying."
I have to take exception to the inclusion of Beregond and Huan, even in honorable mention. Betrayal is only possible when the person betrayed is worthy and deserving of loyalty. Both Denethor and Celegorm had forfeited any right to such expectation by virtue of their own reprehensible and dishonorable deeds. Both Beregond and Huan were faced with either allowing what they knew was wrong or risking their own lives to stand for what they knew was right. Both chose righteously and are remembered as heroes. Neither deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Gollum, Grima or even Feanor. Just my two cents.
Agree.
And mine. Totally blind loyalty is not a virtue.
I also think it’s a stretch to include these two. The old excuse of “…just following orders” is no longer acceptable, either morally or legally. The Nuremberg trials and Geneva Convention established that. So have the militaries of democratic countries. And in Tolkien’s world as well, subordinates have innate moral responsibilities independent of and transcending any man made law or outward “chain of command.” The people who hid Anne Frank’s had a duty under Nazi occupation law to turn her over. It’s a moral outrage to call them traitors. Ditto for any German citizen who resisted the Nazis and aided the Allies. Blind obedience to technically lawful authority is not in itself a virtue. Quite the reverse.
Another (dis)honorable mention should go to Gorlim. Promised a reunion with his missing wife by Sauron, he betrayed his lord Barahir and got him and most of his party killed. At which point Sauron revealed that Gorlim's wife was dead and he would indeed be reunited with her - in death.
Does the Hobbit Conspiracy that foils Frodo's secret plan to leave The Shire count as treachery? I mean, if Beregond and Huan get honourable mentions for betraying their masters, then might Merry, Pippin, and Sam also - thanks to their betrayal of Frodo's trust and/or generally being (to quote CGP Grey) Top Sneaky?
You mentioned the ships, but could Feanor's abandonment of the Noldor in the Helcaraxe be considered a betrayal? He effectively left them there to freeze to death (or, at the very least, without any regard to their well-being) in his desire to speed up his pursuit of Morgoth.
The reason Fingolfin's host had to cross the Helcaraxë was because Fëanor burned the ships instead of sending them back.
As far as he knew at the time, he was leaving them to die and it would have cost him very little to send the ships back for them. That's about as betrayal-y as it gets.
“Custody battle” 😂
I'm guessing you don't specialize in divorce law, but can we agree that screaming that one accepts death both for oneself and on behalf of one's offspring before hurling a bioweapon at them is not likely to garner the court's sympathy? 🤣
@@GirlNextGondor that is a VERY safe bet. 🤣
I've got a nominate Bill Ferny and Lotho S.B. for honorable mentions.
I agree about Lotho, but not Bill Ferney
Beards? Walls??? Nah, I'm gonna threaten to throw a "like" as if I was Throrin Oakenshield threatening to throw a treaturous burglar off the walls of Erebor!
Fine work as usual. I guess Gorlim's collapse under (psychological) torture wasn't enough to win an honorable mention?
The way that I was so happy to see a new video from GNG
That's why I trust no one and forged a ring to control all the other ri. . . wait. Am I the badguy?
Another though-provoking documentary, thank you!
7:48 Saruman - a legend in his own mind
“To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Four Loves
What you said about trust the beginning reminded me of this.
Ted Sandyman and Lotho Sackville-Baggins are on my list. The others just threatend the existance of the whole world, or similar, these 2 made a serious mess of The Shire.
Enjoyed that, a well made and reasoned vid.
Thanks lexi congratulations on the sponsorship.
Thank you Shane! I was very excited to get the offer, ngl ❤️
GirlNextGondor your welcome. You deserve it , hopefully the first of many.
Congrats on the sponsorship Lexi! That's awesome!
Thank you!!
Love the art . With the dragon and turin at the start ( I assume)
I *needed* a break from reality for a moment. This works just fine.
My god, I’m not super newly introduced to GirlNextGondor, but what a great name! It gets me every time. And great content. I haven’t read the Silmarillion myself yet but have it. I’ve watched a couple different LOTR TH-cam channels and I’m happy I was able to get through most of their content and then find GirlNextGondor. Truly a unique but always faithful and a bit more academic take on Tolkiens creations that is refreshing.
Dang, a sponsor already. Well deserved and congrats!
Thank you!
Before I signed the contract I made sure I looked at his hairstyle. 😅
11:07
That is the cutest Gollum I have ever seen
(the bar is set abysmally low, but still)
Of course the Ring is a betrayer. Remember that Sauron put the lion's share of his spirit into it, and as Gandalf says, Sauron is "the base master of treachery."
So good! I’m only part way through but it made my day seeing this video pop up on my lunch break. Favorite insight so far: Beleg is the greatest contribution the Sindar have ever made. 😂 Agreed! Well, off to work. Will excitedly get back to this when I’m off 😊
While it doesn't necessarily apply here, one of my favorite elves is Eol, the Dark Elf. I like elves; they are my favorite D&D race, and several of my own favorite LotR characters, like Cirdan, are elves, but I do tend to give Tolkien's elves guff for always appearing SO perfect. It's why I like Feanor; he has serious flaws, but Eol is worse. I like Eol because there really is no excuse for his evil; he was never tainted, nor tempted, by Morgoth, or threatened into performing evil acts. Somewhere, deep down, he just has something wrong with him, and he's a wonderful example of how even Eru's perfect race, who received every advantage, could just be bad. I appreciate that because it brings the elves, at least for me, a little more in line with everyone else, and even takes a bit of the shine off of them.
Yeah... he's a great baddie. I remember reading as a kid and being very confused by this character because he was inexplicably evil, but also very compelling.
Great stuff GNG. Three comments to make. First I have real trouble deciding if the brief spell of truly loyal service from Gollum, makes his betrayal worse or ameliorates it. Second. I feel that the ring betrays all it touches even in truth it’s maker. Third it is easy to work out why you chose this topic… you did it for the meme. Thanks and keep up the great work.
I enjoyed the video, and you definitely got the top two right, however, I feel like Celegorm and Curufin belonged on this list. While not working with the enemy, they did his work. Getting Nargothrond to turn against the leadership of the greatest elf that ever lived is most certainly high treason. For their selfish ambition, they got Finrod killed (and nearly Beren too), and doomed the later union of Maedhros by earning the distrust and hatred of Nargothrond (after the elves there finally came to their senses) and Doriath.
Even with just Nargothrond in the fold (Thingol still would likely sit out the fight), the Elves and Edain would have not needed the traitorous Easterlings to potentially win the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. The losses would have been catastrophic, yes, but the scales of power were still fairly balanced at that point. My theory is that this great battle would have actually occurred much sooner, as Finrod and Maehdros would form the union soon after Beren came to Nargothrond, with the understanding that the Sons of Feanor could keep their two silmarils and then negotiate to buy the one promised to Thingol by Beren later. The Eastern Force in this case would be smaller but without traitors, but the Western Force would add a large force Nargothrond to Fingon's Host that would otherwise be the same it would be as the history played out. This battle I believe would be a toss up, however, the wildcards would be Luthien and Idril. I could see a scenario where Luthien escapes and rides off to join Beren in the battle, resulting in Thingol pursuing her north with a host of fresh troops that could turn the tide of the battle. Idril also could turn the tide, as her gift of foresight could lead her to see that the Elves chance at victory was her leading a second force from Gondolin, as I believe the force Turgon of 10,000 led was but a tithe of the city's true strength. This theory actually corresponds with Tolkien's earlier drafts, wherein Ulmo wanted Gondolin and Nargothrond to meet Morgoth's hosts in the field with their full strength, and we must also remember the vagueness of the Tears Unnumbered Prophesy that left open the possibility of the Elves still winning, so long as it came at a devastating cost.
Back to my original point though... THEY GOT FINROD KILLED!!!!!!!!!!!
My love for the Middle Feanorians is only rivalled by my hatred for those who contributed to Finrod's demise.
As you can imagine it's a complicated relationship....
@@GirlNextGondor yes, the Feanorians are definitely interesting, and I genuinely like Maglor and Maedhros and understand their side of the "falling out" with the Valar. The videos you did with Helena are some of my favorite TH-cam videos of all time!
I like how Maeglin is clearly meant as an interpretation of Judas, both in means, conduct and consequences. Especially the theme that we can all become like him.
You're an amazing speaker. I look forward to your videos. Much love and respect! Peace and prosperity for you and your family.
Loved this, look forward to more content
Great video, thank you very much for your work !
I will still nitpick that i don't think Faramir was the reason for Gollum's treachery. We first hear of Cirith Ungol and Shelob when Gollum has a conversation with himself in the marshes and is trying to convince himself to bring Frodo to her to get the ring back. Not long after, when they reach the Black Gate, Gollum panics and tries to stop Frodo from going in by all means, and there he betrays them by convincing them to go through Cirith Ungol without mentioning Shelob and the deal he made with her, despite repeated questions about who is guarding the pass. So the betrayal is actually much sooner than their meeting with Faramir.
Sure, Gollum didn't appreciate the mistreatment by Faramir's men, but it didn't change his plans one bit. That only happens in a certain cinematic adaptation of the Book.
The roast game is absolutely on point today. :D
Your like and subscribe segments are so consistently funny.
Maeglin is just misunderstood, Ulfang was risk averse, Gollum had a bad childhood, Saruman was the wrong man for the job and Mim had ptsd
Maeglin got first place! Hooray for that "honor"...?
Well I am always happy to see discussion about my favorite Legendarium character. I love Maeglin a lot. I think he's very interesting and I do feel bad for him. Not a great person but that's part of what makes him and most of the rest of my favorites (besides Nienna, Vaire, and Goldberry) so compelling to me!
Wasn’t he cursed by his dad
Your ad segue was perfectly on-brand, and delightfully self-aware. I appreciated it :-)
I am pleased that the perfidious Precious was given an honorable mention.
13:10 - Gollum decided to kill Frodo with Shelob's hands and pocket the Ring long before meeting Faramir, although Frodo's role in his capture added another "grief" to justify the treason in Gollum's own eyes. Gollum had devised how to wring out of his oath with Shelo's help before they reached the Black Gate (end of Chapter 2, Two Towers):
‘We wants it! But’ - and here there was a long pause, as if a new thought had wakened. ‘Not yet, eh? Perhaps not. She might help. She might, yes.’
‘No, no! Not that way!’ wailed Smeagol.
‘Yes! We wants it! We wants it!’
By the way: great video. But out of many great parts, my favorite was the segue into the ad. :P
I just chilled listening to you praising Beleg until you once again laughed at Sindar Elves and I feel called out again XDD
I love this channel so much, even with my Sindarin screeching
Congrats on the sponsor 🎉
Video was a great watch, and thank you for the amazing organisation in the art work. I wanted that cute Gollum art and it was extremely easy to find the art and the artist. Well done! Obviously worth a subscription.
💖 thank you! Most of these artists are kindly letting me use their work gratis, 'for the good of the fandom.' I'm very glad when I can help get them some exposure and connect with people who appreciate their work in return, good to know it was a user-friendly experience!
I agree on your choice of #1 although honorable mention should go to Grima Wormtongue. He triple crossed Theoden and Saruman each.
The collective ongoing betrayal of everyone by the Feanoreans. It is interesting how Tolkien uses their story in much the same way that GRRM uses the Jamie Lannister/Barristan stories to demonstrate the perils of oaths.
Denethor's betrayal of both Faramir and the people of Gondor seems minimally impactful given how awful it was.
Sauron's poisonous betrayal, if you can call it that, of the Numenoreans was predictable, though the consequences were unimaginable.
The dwarven-smiths betrayal of Elu Thingol was the first domino in one catastrophic occurrence after another, but ultimately led to the intervention of the Valar.
And last, the Sackville-Baggins' betrayal of Bilbo and Frodo led to the perpetual discovery of missing silverware.
Sponsorship for our GNG! And a magnificent title for the vid... are we blessed? yes we are! Are we Top 5 Middle Earth traitors? No, of course not. Are asking too many question? No, it's just me, writing/talking to myself like an idiot.
Bless you Lexi! I hope you're faring well. Will watch as soon as I can.
Thank you very much, O Compressed Oculus, as always! A good traitor never asks too many deep questions 🤣
@@GirlNextGondor haha that's a good point :)
Also Lexi, how would you describe and understand Saruman's decline in power? It's clear his voice is no longer "magical" after Gandalf, Theoden and rest of the crew confront him at the foot of the Orthanc. Was it due to his change of purpose and Eru's will he became a spitful, petty bringand-leader or the process occured on its own, as power he wielded as flesh-clad Maia has been spent on foul devices, machines of war and evil creatures? Like a body of water without any connection to river or stream, and without right amount of rain, his powers dried and even not a lowly charm could he conjure anymore.
I think I will watch it again!
Love your videos!!
Glad you like them!
Excellent video! I love your comment about Beleg being the best addition by the Sindar, youre absolutely right😅
Congrats to Maeglin for taking the top spot👏 I absolutely love his character and chose to view him in the most sympathetic light possible (with a lot of headcanons thrown in) but he arguably deserves to be number one.
Nice to find another Maeglin fan!😄We can (sometimes) be hard to find! He's my favorite character in the Legendarium and I have a lot of headcanons for him too! What are some of your favorites?
There's no fandom for 'problematic faves' like the Tolkien fandom. 😂 I both heartily repudiate Maeglin's deeds and wish to knit him a lovely pair of mittens and encourage him to open up to his therapist(s).
Congratulations for the sponsorship! Here’s to more! 🍻
Thank you! Today Heroes of Middle-earth, tomorrow Audible! ...or something 😅
@@GirlNextGondor there’s a saying in my mother tongue: you never know from where the rabbit might jump. Expect the unexpected.
"Saruman is accounted by many, most notably himself, to be the head of the order of the Istari." 😆Excellently delivered and subtle criticism.
Haha you threw those last ones in just to stir the pot 😂
😏
Thank you, Lexi! Watching now!
Sarumans betrayal deserves a higher ranking.
The thing I found most ironic about Saruman's betrayal was that how few people *fully* trusted him, on a personal level. Cirdan and Galadriel both immediately detected something 'off' about him, and Elrond, Gandalf etc. all grew to have reservations about the wisdom of his counsel, at the very least.
He does, however, earn a bit of credit back for the sheer audacity of his intent to double-cross *Sauron Himself*.
@@GirlNextGondor but he betrayed his holy duty (literally)
@@GirlNextGondorspeaking of Sauron shouldn’t he be on the list
Thank you for the drop! Awesome video!
Wait, Mim is pronounced Meem??? This explains so much about his character, his name was probably the cherry on top of the, "Memed on by the Universe" Cake that Mim probably ate every day
How about Gandalf (and the other eight of the fellowship)?
They wilfully took Bill the pony up to the entrance of Moria, knowing that they were going to ditch him at the door to take his chances with the hunting wargs. I think he had good cause to feel a bit betrayed.
Lol Saruman's POOR FORESTRY MANAGMENT is brilliant I know it refers to the Ents lol❤ 😂
If I betrayed all of our kin and destroyed all remaining hope for the forces of good, would you go out with me? 😐
I think Bilbo should be on the list...he betrayed those nice Sackvillbagginses making the evil mushroomthief Frodo his heir.
I see someone has been reading the Green Book of the Marish, composed largely by the Maggot clan.....
@@GirlNextGondor I do find it funny that Frodo got beat up for mushroompicking. As a devoted picker myself I do know how much one guard the secret of ones good places...but not to that extent :)
Oh mierda, mi amor! Despiertate! Otra video de Girl Next Gondor!
Que sorpresa! Mira al... video!
(Como se dice 'best recurring comment joke ever'?)
@@GirlNextGondorSi! Continuarà hasta El Dagor Dagorath! O hasta que termine el canal. Probablemente.
5:20 he should be jealous of Beleg, the best friend a human could ever ask for.
Beleg and Turin are my favorite characters in all of lore. So I would have put Mim higher, but was very happy to see he made your list. Edit, wording
Beleg in particular deserved better than to exist in 1st Age Beleriand. If it weren't for the whole 'you killed my son and essentially held me for ransom in my own home.' and the Androg angle, I would have put Mim higher.
The source of betrayals in Middle-earth is largely related to the Curse of Mandos (Noldor's Misfortune). The betrayal of the characters is not due to their personal essence, but to the curse they have fallen under. So I think this should be taken into account when judging the characters.
We definitely need a video regarding the Fall of Gondolin.
Superb as ever! 😁
Sauruman, Grima Wormtongue, Morgoth, and the Sackville Bagginses. Am I close?
Maeglin…the disappointing son of imperfect parents….
Witty and informative, your videos are a treat. This one I watched twice so as not to miss any detail. GNG video drop days are my favorite!
Honestly, if you trust someone named Grima you are gonna get what you get.
did you use the less suspicious part of the name on purpose?
@@MusikCassette I did.
So I googled 'Grima' ('Wormtongue' was an after-name, so probably given after he'd demonstrated tricksy attributes) and it means something like 'mask-helmet'... which is pretty close to ol' Dernhelm (secret-helmet)! Alas for poor Grima, etymology was the closest he *could* get to her in the end....
@@GirlNextGondor Rapier wit, GNG, rapier wit.
My grandfather Grima was a honourable and brave man. And I take great offense at this comment 😝
Nice work thanks
Did you mention Annatar? Cuz I think that move with the rings and the corruption was kinda uncool.
Good point. But one cannot really say that he betrayed the Elves, any more than Finrod, disguising himself as an Orc, betrayed Morgoth. (However Sauron did betray Aulë, and acted as a spy for Morgoth for a while, back in the day, before switching allegiance openly.)
That's true. Clueless Celebrimbor would agree.
Can ask request an analysis of the abnormal and slightly problematic marriages in the Noldor
Your voice is a lot like another TH-camr named Aliakai. Both channels have great content.
And at number 1....Simon Tolk....ah nevermind.
This is extremely good content
That heroes of middle earth seems kind of fun
1:20 subtle…
Before seeing the video, or reading any comments: Maeglin, Saruman, Curufin, Grima, Mim is my list. Let's see how many I got in common...
Three of five, plus one more in the honourable mentions. I got 2 placements in common too.
Ooh that's pretty good. Great minds think alike? 😊
@@GirlNextGondor Except for those that forget Ulfang and Bor... 😀
Bilbo betraying Thorin and handing the Arkenstone over to the enemy.
The difference is, Bilbo eventually read the 'Terms and Conditions' that he'd impulsively clicked 'accept' on, and as he points out there was nothing in the contract about *what* could constitute a particular party member's 1/14th share. Contractually, Thorin didn't have a leg to stand on... which is probably a major reason why Bilbo survived to record the incident.
@@GirlNextGondor But I think Thorin esteemed the jewel above all the other treasure. So its very value then is in dispute. Arguably the Arkenstone exceeds 1/14 share. But moreover whethor it is a legit claim or not, I would still call it a personal betrayal.
Only Thorin, for a short time, thought Bilbo was a traitor.
@@Enerdhil Thorin is more graceful than I am.
Great analysis as always. I note a distinct dearth of Second Age content, though. While much slower developing than the betrayals you do cite, what about the Númenorean kings' turn against the Valar? Definitely a blot on the legacy of Eärendil. Did I spell that right?
You did, which is no mean feat. 😄
Wait. Does that mean the Elves ate dwarves? No wonder Dwarves and Elves don’t get along.
Turin and his crew murdered Mim's son for no reason, kidnapped him, and occupied his home. It seems to me the "traitor" label means you've turned against your friends or allies. These people were never his friends and allies. Therefore, he's not a traitor. That's my way of thinking, anyway.
The One Ring. The most betrayenest of all betrayenizers.
Wormtongue was a traitor too. He betrayed Theodin.
Frodo should have been on the list as he betrayed everyone in the end when he gave into the ring
I was surprised to learn that when the book was published a fair number of readers wrote to Tolkien, telling him off for this exact thing.
@@GirlNextGondor LOL
@GirlNextGondor Tolkien was very consistent to his personal worldview in this. Eucatastrophic necessity was not merely a literary device in his mind. Arda is fundamentally marred and no one can resist the corruption of power due to Morgoth's abomination.
numero uno: Nerd of the Rings 😆
Up there in the top with Melkor himself.
I don’t get it. Why?
Matt sold his soul for Bezos Gold. He was clearly Shill of the Year for Amazon. He was rewarded by TH-cam with favorable algorithms that routed all potential subs to his channel. The OG himself, Yoystan, hardly gained any subs during the time the series was playing because he is honorable and loves the lore. Matt saw a way to cash out on the series. He now has all the money he ever dreamed of. It just cost him his soul. Doing a deal with Sauron has its downside. I lost all respect for him. I unsubbed and stopped watching his videos after his last video on the series.
The fact that Frodo got a pass for this episode is a bit of a bummer. His choice not to destroy the ring can be seen as the culmination of the theme of betrayal in the lord of the rings. I think there’s a lot of emphasis put on how the ring takes control of people’s wills but when Frodo speaks at the crack of doom he is very obviously decisive and uses fully first person language as contrasted with how gollum speaks about the ring. Suggesting that whereas gollum is fully subordinated to the ring’s power Frodo is merely “seduced” or perhaps “enticed” or even “deceived” at any rate, that puts him squarely in the category of Saruman at least in terms of traitors.