Was Alqualondë an INSIDE JOB? | Interpreting Tolkien's Metafiction
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ค. 2024
- *NOTE: the arguments made herein should be viewed with a sense of humor and intellectual curiosity. Kinslaying is hazardous to one's health and to the health and wellbeing of others, and should never be attempted, even by trained professionals.*
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In writing this video I owe a debt to several articles by other scholars. The one directly quoted in this video is cited and linked below:
Walls-Thumma, Dawn M. (2016) "Attainable Vistas: Historical Bias in Tolkien's Legendarium as a Motive for Transformative Fanworks," Journal of Tolkien Research: Vol. 3: Iss. 3, Article 3.
Available at: scholar.valpo.edu/journalofto...
Another excellent article on the subject that I did not quote but found really helpful can be found here:
Sherwood, Will (2020) "Tolkien and the Age of Forgery: Improving Antiquarian Practices in Arda," Journal of Tolkien Research: Vol. 11: Iss. 1, Article 4.
Available at: scholar.valpo.edu/journalofto...
Timestamps:
Intro - 0:00
Middle-earth metafiction - 0:52
Tolkien's goals - 4:46
Unintended effects - 7:01
Case Study: Kinslaying - 9:33
The 'official' account - 11:57
Examining the evidence - 12:59
Crossing the line, and conclusions - 20:03
Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for fair use purposes such as criticism, commentary, parody, news, reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. All works used in this video (images, audio, etc.) belong to their respective authors and are used with permission or in accordance with the copyright holder's stated usage policy.
🖌️Art Credits🖌️
A full list of artworks, including links, is found here:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
Thumbnail Art Credits:
"The Burning of the Ships" by Ted Nasmith: www.tednasmith.com/tolkien/th...
"Feanor" by Oleksandra Ishchenko (Saga): www.deviantart.com/sagasketch...
Artists (in order of work’s first appearance):
1 - Doga Simsir: / dogasimsir_artwork
2 - Bella Bergolts: www.deviantart.com/bellabergolts
**Commissioned for the fic “Light of Damned Stars” by Annals of Arda: ficbook.net/readfic/6544987
3 - Helena Nikulina: www.artstation.com/laurelin
4 - Julia Alekseeva: www.deviantart.com/gellihana-art
5 - Justin Gerard: www.artstation.com/artwork/WLedN
6 - Frederic Bennett: www.artstation.com/frederic_b...
7 - Fabio Leone: FB: / illustratorfabioleone
IG: / fabioleoneart
Artstation: www.artstation.com/fabioleone
8 - Giovanni Calore: www.artstation.com/giovanni_c...
9 - Even Amundsen: www.artstation.com/mischeviou...
10 - Rui Goncalves: www.artstation.com/rui_goncal...
11 - Nick Deligaris: www.deligaris.com/
12 - Bre Melvin: www.artstation.com/bremelvin
13 - Pete Amachree: www.artstation.com/summerpudding
14 - Klaus Wittmann: www.artstation.com/klauswittmann
15 - Joseph Feely: www.artstation.com/joefly
16 - Ted Nasmith: www.tednasmith.com
17 - Nam Cheon: www.artstation.com/ssen
20 - Aleksander Karcz: www.artstation.com/aleksander... (© Fantasy Flight Games)
21 - Magali Villeneuve: www.magali-villeneuve.com/ (© Fantasy Flight Games)
22 - Yi Jong: www.artstation.com/kamiesque
23 - Gerwell: www.deviantart.com/gerwell
24 - Alexey Rudikov: www.artstation.com/alexeyrudikov
25 - Dakkun: / dakkun39
26 - KuraiGeijutsu: www.deviantart.com/kuraigeiju...
27 - Robert Zigo: www.deviantart.com/crocorax
28 - Marcela Medeiros: marcelamedeirosarts.com/
31 - Jonathan Guzi: jonathanguzi.com/
32 - Kenneth Sofia: www.artstation.com/kensofia42
33 - CK Goksoy: www.artstation.com/ckgoksoy
34 - Alystraea: www.deviantart.com/alystraeaart
35 - MGCoco: / mgcoco
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#lordoftherings #tolkien #silmarillion
I’ve always had the impression that Manwë’s anger against the Fëanorians gained a little extra “oomph” because they swore an oath directly to Eru and in effect went over his head. No mid-manager appreciates that.
I wish I could object to manwe being called a middle manager but he is very proud of his managerial status and is not looking to be promoted 😁
well, they mentioned him and Varda as a witnesses: "On the holy mountain hear in witness and our vow remember, Manwë and Varda!"
@@omnio7662typical middle management stuff, witnesses important things/documents but that’s about it.
That was some impressive revisionism there lol. But it does also highlight how Tolkien really was striving for a morally complex story where blame is not a simple 100/0 proposition. Because even at the opposite end of the spectrum the Valar do share some fault.
Last time I let the 'joke' topic make it onto my community choice poll as an option 😂 though I did have a lot of fun with it. And while I certainly don't think this should be considered a serious interpretation, it's a good example of how important narrative voice/perspective is, even when it's largely invisible.
So does Eru.
@@lukasbauer8783in the way an author bears responsibility for the actions of their characters
I love out of the box interpretations like this! Somewhere out there in Middle-earth, there was definitely a conspiracy theory elf handing out pamphlets making this case xD
😆 I imagine someone had to give them a stern talking-to. Galadriel, perhaps.
"Teleri lied, Quendi died."
LOCK MANDOS UP!
"Doriath, another sheltered realm where anti-Noldorin sentiment was ... strong"
I don't know it it was editing or in the original, but this made me laugh.
Really, I have no idea why they'd feel that way 🤣
My favorite meta narrative text is the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. The idea being a philosophical conversation between Finrod and a mortal woman, but with Bilbo doing textual criticism on it during his time in rivendell, pointing out later additions, adding notes, speculating on missing fragments, etc.
Amazing video as always. Super interesting. Hopefully next time we can cover how Tom Bombadil was actually the true dark lord the entire time.
Hate to break it to you but someone beat us to the punch 🤣:
flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm
Ah, my favorite Tolkien TH-camr - who would never spend 23 minutes gaslighting me - just put up a new video! I think I'll just give it a click... 🤣🤣🤣
Trying to replace gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss with felony, finesse, Finwion
That was a very refreshing interpretation of Olwë 🤣 I suspect he was mainly motivated by risk aversion. He does not see any benefit to his people but danger when assessing Fëanor's request. It's a good argument though regarding Elwë's kin in Beleriand being threatened anew from Morgoth, one therefore has to wonder whether the argument was even brought up in the discussion or if the conversation already reached a dead end psychologically by this point.
Political arrangements with such high stakes require previous trust that was perhaps irreparebly broken by Fëanor's oath. Olwë may have read the oath as a public threat to anyone who would refuse to pay material tribute to support Fëanor's selfish cause. So Elwë may have despised and distrusted Fëanor so much that he was not receptive for strategic arguments, and ought to minimise his involvement in what felt like a lost cause, a highly contagious path downwards. He may tell himself (before or after the fact) that the lives lost that day were a necessary sacrifice to wrestle his people out of Fëanor's divinely charged nimbus of utter ruin.
Don't forget the Valaquenta explicitly states that Olorin was walking invisible among the Elves in Aman and taking form as one of them for many many years but nobody knew who he was or what or why he was doing it. And isn't it odd that Fingolfin magically "decided" not to speak when confronted directly by Feanor? CONVENIENT. 😂😂
We have no idea how far up this thing goes! It could be all the way to the peak of Taniquetil itself! 😆
My "Like" is for the video as a whole, not for Fëanor, whom I can't manage to whitewash despite the room for variant stories or interpretations. (That oath, for crying out loud!) But I do like your exploration of how far the reinterpretation can go -- and your conclusion that this one had finally crossed some line somewhere.
I did write something, nearly 20 years ago, that shifts some of the blame onto the Valar. It was part of a series of sonnets on the theme of Galadriel's Mirror and the danger of causing its predictions to come true in the very act of trying to prevent them. In this case the person misled by the Mirror is Manwë -- and after writing it I suspected I had expressed the viewpoint of Maglor, trying to minimize the blame deserved by the Noldor. Anyway here's the poem, if I can still remember it right:
Shall I, who knew the Music, turn to gaze
On some new-fangled light-and-water show
In which young Nerwen makes to come and go
The shapes of things to come in future days?
Shall Arda not go on in all the ways
The Ainur sang of once? Yet even so
As child of Eru something she may know
Beyond that hymn we made to Eru's praise.
Ah no! Not Fëanor! Not elves with elves
Fighting to claim those jewels for themselves!
On Finwë's son my eagle eye I'll set,
His pride each way rebuke, his folk forbid
To leave my realm or go where death lies hid.
I'll turn aside this portent even yet.
OMG, I've just realized the horrible truth: you deviously engineered the patrons to choose this topic for you specifically so that we could take the blame, just as the Valar secretly manipulated the most "undesirable" Noldor into leaving Valinor and keeping Morgoth busy per the scenario you put forward... This video topic was an INSIDE JOB!! #ThePatronsDidNothingWrong #TheTruthIsOutThere
🤣
Oh my goodness! You're right! GnG is as devious as Sauron!
Thanks for undertaking this understanding of an undeservedly underserved topic.
Anything for my loyal viewers 😆
I love this coment🥰
Thanks lexi , .. ( gollum voice) poor lexi ,why does she cry ? ( smegal voice ) the patrons , precious, the patrons, they makes us suffer, they dont care how hard we work , ( gollum ) we should make them suffer, make them write, till their fingers bleed , ( smegal ) no no , patrons and subscribers are our friend , they loves us , they asks for a video we gives them a video. Poor poor lexi . ( kidding)
😂🤣😂
Nice, crunchable patrons... we will be nice to them, if they be nice to us...
@@GirlNextGondor but if not , them to to us raw and wriggling.
@@GirlNextGondor pats head offer's fish, rare steak and Pawnbread. see, friendly subscriber , friendis's? You mustntis's go hungry! Come you eats now! Then you may rest before we talks about jewels that shine like fire, and fangirl over fangorn standing in the starlight glimpsing to the West trying to fathom the undying love of the valar.
First time I've known anyone to cover this potentiality.
I can honestly say I never thought I'd find myself making this argument 😅
@@GirlNextGondor Then well done!
I love the mix of fangirl and intellectual. Well done. More please ;)
There are two wolves inside of me: one values rigorous argumentation and the other one has a star of Feanor tattooed on her forehead 😂
Glad you liked it!
Inside you there are two Doges. Both are right.
People say Frodo and Sam's journey to Mordor was a long one. But personally I find any journey with hobbits is rather... short :)
That took me off guard 😂
I love frame tales. Both of my favorite works of fantasy (The Legendarium) and science fiction (Dune) use this narrative tool to add verisimilitude to their settings. On this All Hallows Eve, I'll offer some praise for a precocious 16 year old young lady in a chateau in the Alps, with her illustrious soon-to-be husband and his poetic pals. Every day her friends would ask her for her contribution to their nightly ghost stories. After an inspirational dream, she came downstairs with a cauldron full of electricity and body parts and presented the first draft of Frankenstein, or A Modern Prometheus. If you like stories where artists lives and art are so entwined its hard to tell which is which, take a dive into the lives of Mr. and (the 2nd) Mrs. Shelly.
Were they the couple where he died of a heart calcification disorder and his widow got to carry around his fossilized heart in her purse? It sounds like them... I went DEEP down a Gothic frame narrative rabbit hole while researching this video and it's fascinating how the trope evolved! Definitely have to revisit Frankenstein now with new eyes.
@@GirlNextGondor That's the Shellys!
Very interesting video, as always! Listening to someone with such an analytic mindset talk about Tolkien´s work is a wonderful complement to reading them. Enjoy it every time!
PS. I laughed out loud when you called the First Kinslaying the "Alqualondë incident".
Excellent, one of your best so far. I think a deep dive into how Merry and Pippin ousted Folco and Fatty from their true places in the conspiracy, is long overdue.
The "reinterpretation" is very fine.
A different reinterpretation is Melkor lies were not only aimed at the Noldor (and Feanor) but also to others.
The Teleri King considered the Ships as Feanor considered the Silmarili.
So Melkor would lie and primed the Teleri to distrust the Noldor and not help them like he saw distrust in Feanor.
No ships would force all Noldor to travel the Helcaraxe or renounce the travel.
Taking the ship would taint the Noldor and the Teleri for the violence and sour the Valar.
A victory for Morgoth anyway.
The problem for the Valar is they are forbidden from bending the will of Elves and Men. Morgoth do so and it not end well for him. They call Eru to intervene when the Numenorians invade as they have no other option.
The other Valar don't need to trick the elves and sow discord as this is the role of Melkor in the music.
When they declare the Doom of Mandos whatever outcome is right for them.
All stay, all leave, some stay and some leave.
Same for the Massacre in Alqualonde. It is not in their power, role or ability to prevent it, even if they could or would
As we saw, they tried to save the Gondolindrim but they discarded the advice because of their attachment.
Thanks for this great video. I find the idea of Tolkien writing with the idea of his texts having different authors, transcribers, and translators in their fictional histories fascinating! Thanks for explaining it. I'll have to keep these ideas in mind next time I read some Tolkien!
Gee, Olwe! You could have just said: "Look Feefee, may I call you Feefee? You people couldn't navigate your way across the Sirion if it was frozen over. We'll ferry your mob across. Then you can go indulge in your little obsessive vendetta, and we can go back to looking for pearls." No fuss, no muss, certainly no bloodshed.
Well, okay, maybe Olwe probably shouldn't call Feanor "Feefee".
This was a fascinating video! I'm glad you explored the topic of theoretical narrative bias in the silm, I rarely see it done in good faith. I've actually only ever seen it brought up in arguments not for Fëanor being completely innocent, but for MORGOTH being blameless, which is such a total inversion of Tolkien's morality that it gives me a headache 😭 anyways, the video was lovely and I always look forwards to your uploads
Yeah, the Morgoth-did-nothing-wrong argument can be fun to make but it isn't a very good example of the double-edged nature of the 'narrative bias' angle precisely because you have to discard *everything* as bias to make it work. I don't actually think you can seriously interpret the Noldor as having no fault in the Kinslaying, but it IS a case where acknowledging the potential bias serves to further complexify an already morally-grey group of characters. Glad you enjoyed this one, it was a bit of a departure for me but really fun to think about!
Depends on what one means by that.
Melkor was a psychopath and a narcissist, but he was clearly set up for his specific role by Eru (who was terrible at parenting at best).
Tolkien's morality was flawed as fuck.
If Fëanor needed legal representation I think he'd choose you. ⚖️ And I think you'd win the case aswell. 😄
I really like the artwork that you used!
If you check the description you can find links to all the artists! Many of them have extensive fantasy/Tolkien portfolios.
I loved this. You really had me there. i have heard lf #feanordidnothingwrong before, but this shows there are legit causes to soften his harshness.
Also love the use of the RoP image during 'you know it when you see it' line at the end. Beware if you don't want to open the floodgates on people demanding videos for that. I think the deviations are too big even for character rehabs
Thanks for another lovely video. I play them as a very pleasant background when I work.
I don't think I agree with the idea the teleri resorted to violence first. They were throwing the gnomes off their ships because they were trying to steal them against the will of the Teleri. I personally think the gnomes boarding of their ships is an act of violence but it depends how you define that. I also think the fact the Teleri killed a lot of gnomes isn't really a reason to view them as less virtuous since they didn't choose to be in that situation and had made it clear they cared about their boats as much as Feanor cared about his Silmarils.
Whether or not we call it violence I certainly concede that the Noldor instigated the unlawful behavior. Though Feanor's argument to Olwe about the boats closely resembles the Valar's argument to him about giving up the Silmarils....🤔😉
@@GirlNextGondor That is interesting because it makes it simultaneously more understandable that Feanor would not give his Silmarils up and makes him look like an ass for making the same demand to the Teleri.
@@GirlNextGondor yes, but theft is not as bad as murder. Especially among people who had just discovered that murder was possible like five minutes before. The Teleri shot first!
Also bear in mind, the Teleri don't just refuse to *lend* their ships... but also to *help the Noldor build their own*.
This was an interesting video, though the 'reconstruction' of events got so ridiculous I almost snorted my iced-coffee out of my nose near the end. I think Tolkien would have had a hearty chortle, though he would have shot down this suggested version of events (if I may be so bold as to inject my thoughts on his opinion).
That said, it seems that this interpretation does fit with one thing Tolkien wanted to do; he intended that we should have some doubt regarding what was written in the various books and study the text closely as professors are wont to do with the likes of Dickens, Austen and Conrad and others of their generation. So that the Valar and Elves are morally complex in nature, but that we should always think critically about the text we're reading or so I like to think. Really enjoyed this video and like that you point out how you crossed into the realm of deconstruction (always an easy thing to do)
Excellent stuff Lexi. Absolutely loved this analysis
I am really grateful for the opportunity to reengage with this material in a way that doesn't require rereading it. It's very dense!
a little off topic, Bury The Light from Devil May Cry V is a good Feanorian theme song
I know this channel has not been running for anything like the same length of time as *Signum University's* but I do find *GirlNextGondor's* content to be much more engaging and accessible although no less scholastic.
Now, if one were to take a meta-approach to this video, and wonder whether a further generalisation is warranted about what actually is 'Tolkienian' and what isn't...
But let's not go there.
Thank you for another great video!
I’m a bit late because life happened 😂. This was great! I was wondering how you’d turn this into a great video. (It was an….interesting idea for a video topic). Well done!
As much fun as I had building out this argument I found myself pausing from time to time, asking myself "...am I *really* doing this right now? Am I *really* preparing to steelman a "Feanor did nothing wrong" and actually publish it on the 'tubes?" 😆 Glad you enjoyed it, I know I had fun!
Wow! So much to process here. I have never questioned Feanor's treachery, even while being sympathetic to his deception by Morgoth. You have certainly given me another lens with which to view the events leading up to and through the flight of the Noldor to Middle-earth. You have opened my eyes to a possible revision of my beliefs regarding the motives and character of the faction of rebellious Noldor, of the Teleri at Alqualonde, and of the Valar themselves. Once again, thank-you, for your penetrating insights. I don't know that in the end I will agree with your analysis; but, at present I am intriguingly challenged, and I am grateful for it. Thanks, Lexi.
It was Feanor being Feanor.
I have a huge soft spot for long-form discussions that are willing to stick to Kayfabe. I kinda hope you'll explore other topics of a similar manner where you just discuss events seen from other points of view (and with some slight coaxing to make it entertaining).
I was thinking about something similar recently when I considered what it actually meant for the setting that pretty much the only people who have interacted with the ainur without any kind of veil or obfuscation are elves. How would humans even know the ainur exist? Sure, you have all these elves talking about them, but all you have possibly seen (or probably just heard of) can be explained by much simpler means than "there's this hidden race of near-gods living on a continent separated from the rest of the world". Morgoth and Sauron could just have been elves gone bad, as pre-Silmarillion fans often speculated. Melian, Gandalf and the Istari could just be magic-wielding elves and humans. The star or Eärendil could just be a star. Or a weather balloon. Or maybe gas from the Dead Marshes reflected off the planet Venus.
"A race of god-like spirits ordained by the true creator deity to watch over the world who rarely ever interfere with the world? At this point in the Third Age, in this part of Arda, localized entirely to the continent of Aman?"
"Yes."
"May I see them?"
"No."
Anyway great work, keep the videos coming.
Thank you so much. Now it is up us Patreons to find some way to top this.
*sweats*
I really love and respect the way your thought process worked here. You know, perhaps if some cable tv channels had your thought process and respect for the professor...
You are a brave woman.
Brave, or foolish 😆
Hahaha. I love the thumnail.
The title of this video is absolute gold XD
Watching now! Thanks Lexi! 😊
Any time!
This was great! Love it.
Dear GNG, I love this video, (in fact, I even liked it) but I could barely hear the audio. As my theater teachers used to tell me, they can't hear you in the back. I had to turn my volume up all the way to understand you. It's easier to make something quieter if it's too louder than loud if it's too quiet. An ad played in the middle, and it was not on the same volume. Ouch.
^^^^ yeah, this might be deserving of a remastered upload
Lexi must never be allowed into politics. She's too powerful.
But you do make a good point about how overbearing the valar were being towards the elves. I wonder if they would have let elves leave under less violent circumstances, and if they would have been forbidden from returning. They do seem to have a thing in general where once you've been to Valinor you aren't allowed go back to middle earth.
I LOOVE this topic when it comes to Tolkiens work. One of the reasons that The Hobbit is my favorite book is that Bilbo is an unreliable narrator. I always considered his version of events the fauntling-friendly version that he told to Frodo as not to scare him and to foster his own delusions. Even Frodo has said before that Bilbo was the kind to make jokes out of very serious things. You get the sense that The Lord of The Rings is a more reliable source. In it and the appendices there are hints that Bilbos own adventure in reality did fit the tone of LOTR. Tolkien even started drafting a rewrite of The Hobbit to recount the true events.
I do think that us only being left with Bilbos unreliable account was perfect because we get that sense of mystery and secondary belief SO strongly from it. My favorite part is peering through the cracks and coming up with my own ideas of what could have happened between the lines. What happened during the considerable miles of travel between leaving the shire and meeting the trolls? Considering the dangers how could every dwarf have survived the journey to Erebor? Surly Bilbo would have become privy to dwarven culture that we would vow to keep secret forever. Did Gandalf really always appear right at the perfect time to help them or to keep Thorin from throwing him of the ramparts? Did he REALLY miss most of the horror of the the Battle of the Five Armies by a CONVENIENT blow to the head? He must have made some extremely strong friendships and become an important figure for the people of Erebor. After all their former king dedicated his final moments to speaking with him and later Dain refused to sell him out to Sauron- sending Gloin and Gimli to Rivendell to warm him.
I love making Tolkien roll in his grave by reinterpreting to my hearts content, just like you did with this conspiracy XD
The challenge is, as you said, striking the balance so that an interpretation still FEELS tolkienian. Which is why even if The Hobbit movies explored some of this concept, they missed the mark on capturing Tolkiens spirit when filling in the gaps too many times. Never mind the stories of its production. Curse you corporate greed.
Where was the line crossed, you ask? 16:48. Everything up to that point is pure fact (source: was there). But suggesting the Valar had some elaborate plan to get rid of us? They are incompetent, not intentionally malicious. Easily mistakable when amoral neglect is a factor.
Nice work thanks
This was good stuff GNG, one must have sympathy for the Feanoreans and indeed for their most doomed leader. Of course the fault of the Valar is most to be laid at the feet of Melkor. As for not listening to Morgoth, the hobbits did not listen to Saruman, but Pippin felt himself long after as a piece of baggage. Thanks and keep up the good work.
This video almost got me close to thinking that Feanor wasn't an absolute prick... just a bit of a prick. Well done!
Whichever way you look at it though the Valar do bare some responsibility for the first kin-slaying as the Teleri refusal to help the Noldor cross the sea or even help them build ships was, at least a significant part, based on the assumption it was against the will of the Valar for the Noldor to leave.
what a video title 👀
This talk about other minds and hands was the most talked about area of discussion during the Rings of Power series. In this context, Hithaeglir's Roots Song, which tells the myth of Mithril in the series, was for me the work of a Tolkien-esque hand and mind.
Great, as usual, but the smoke that drifts across the screen keeps causing me to check my ashtray to see if a cigarette didn't go out.
Just trying to do my part to encourage fire safety 😆
@@GirlNextGondor Lol
i always felt that the valar was the ones doing the big fault here. They brought the noldor to aman and it basicly went to hell and when the noldor wants to leave they basicly try to stop them, aman seems more like a prison where elfs shall do as the valar want. PC-valars!
So... does anyone think they had lasagna in Middle-Earth? Probably not, but I think the Hobbits would take to the stuff like a duck to water... maybe Queen Berúthiel cats as well.
OMG!! Is that painting at the end supposed to be you with the Fëanorians after they crossed over to Middle Earth on the swan ships?!! 😂🤣😆🤣😂😄
I saw that, she's a Fëanorian.
I know I didn't just hear you blame the violence on the Teleri for resisting the Noldor's attempt to steal their ships.
This is what happens when a bunch of ''Angelic'' pantheon play vice-Gods
History is written by its winners. And since the Fëanorians had all but completely lost their sway by the end of the First Age, they were in no position anymore to let their viewpoint weave into the story. George R.R. Martin, an avid Tolkien fan, has repeatedly stressed that point, when talking about his own stories, particularly his fictional histories.
That said, I always thought the House of Finwë was in dire need of some family therapy, as the Valar definitely weren't cutting it with the way they handled all the Noldorin shenanigans.
Wow! You could give lessons to politicians on how to spin things beyond all recognition! 😁👍
For my part, I remain unconvinced. Fëanor is a War Criminal.
I still pressed the Like button. 🙃
Mm-hmm. Color me unconvinced. While not aligning with Tolkien's original vision, I'd be totally interested in an adaptation with this new Feanorian angle.
Me: "No I won't drink that much"
Me 2 hours later: 9:44
This is every Friday night at my house 🤣
Very good video.
However there are a couple of points that are not that clear.
First, the Valar do want the Silmarils, but for a reason. They contained the light from the Two Trees.
14:45 you say it is not clear why elves are discouraged from trying to return. But later you say the Noldors are very useful for the Valar.
Alex Jones: "Nobody died at Aqualonde!"
Solidarity with Feanor? Nah, my thumb will hit that like button as if it was shot from the slender bows of the Telari firing at the traitorous hearts of the Noldor!
Feanor did nothing wrong! ;)
If it wasn't for Fëanor, middle earth would be covered in shadow. Fëanor, Fingolfin,and Finarfin are the ancestors of some of the greatest elves. Ëarendil is very important,he produced the Royal line of Numenor which is where we eventually get High King Elissar Telcontar.
I adore that Tolkien wanted people to fill in the gaps in his fiction for themselves. His dream truly came true.
Middle-earth Conspiracy Theories. I love it!!!!
we need to get Preston Jacobs to watch this. He was very interested but completely in the dark in the possibility of the Silmarillion's unreliable narrators
"Infidelity to Tolkien is a bit like obscenity; you know it when you see it." Could you perhaps be referring to the billion dollar disaster that recently tainted our screens with its complete and utter deconstruction of anything remotely Tolkienian? *cough*
I adore the extremely subtle way to suggest where a line might have been crossed with the last image. Clearly the most recent novelisation of ancient history is not only biased in its Arafinwean slant, but suffers from a very Mannish tendency to confuse and mix up elements of disparate historical facts and artefacts, as shown by the appropriation of Feanorian imagery which is reassigned to Gil-Galad’s culturally markedly Sindarin and Nolofinwean historical reign. #feanorianpride
This girl would do anything to defend the noldor and feanorians
Sometimes Tolkien says things like" and no more was ever heard of them".... and naturally you have to wonder
Nice take. I still dont get crossing the line, but nice
I want to go borrow white swan boats after watching this video
"... questionable adaptive practice" is such a wonderfully understated way of referring to the utter calumny of that dreadful show.
'...wielding paint and music and drama.'
Tolkien was a blessed changeling, a real master artist
Pride, anger, sedition, rebellion and insurrection, violence and theft, betrayal - reinterpretation cannot excuse such crimes.
Pride, anger, rebellion may be sin (but who gets to decide that?) but they are not crimes.
Another great video #feanordidnothingwrong
The fact that Tolkein left so much intentionally uncertain about Arda, its peoples, and its stories gives tremendous latitude to fanfiction authors
I think that The Valar's intention does not seem wholly good. Melkors lies may have affected the Valar.
Why else were they split?
Manwe, Varda and Ulmo were more sympathetic towards the Noldor than the other Valar.
Why should the rest of Middle earth suffer because of the actions of Noldor?
I think Tolkien hinted that the Valar were not perfect and this affected their actions after the kinslaying.
Intervention by the Valar is what ultimately led to the kinslaying.
Tolkien's narrative frame in LOTR is rather inconsistiently maintained. There are references for example to Saruman and Sauron starting with the same letter (even though Sauron is a real name, and Saruman is a translated name) or to Galadriel and "garden" having the same intitial letter.
Yeah Tolkien intentionally left scope for other hands to add material, but reckoned without Cancel Culture, lol.
It's definitely a possibility that the Noldor felt this was the truth of the matter.
I always sided with Feanor, he's the only elf who doesn't worship those good for nothing Valar, they only want everyone kissing their asses.
1. The Valar are the ones to blame for Morgoth getting released, the destruction of the trees and the murder of Finwe are on them.
2. The Teleri were the ones who drew first blood being ungrateful bastards after the Noldor helped them build their city.
3. The Valar are happy to let everyone suffer in Middle Earth until someone after hundreds years and thousands of deaths gets there and kiss their colective asses so much that they bother to come to Middle Earth and fix their mistake. And like Turin says it is easy for those who live forever to wait in their secret realms for the False gods to come do their job, while generations of me men are born and die only knowing suffering.
4. Feanor was right to ditch those traitorous rebels to go back to their false gods. Why should he help those who are not loyal to their rightful king, Fingolfin was always envious.
I mean the Valar are basically false pagan gods
Well, within the story itself, Feanor is indeed without blame and everything is someone else's fault. You see, the world as is, is a representation of the song the Ainu sang, wherein every fibre of what was, what is and what will be was woven. Feanor's and the Noldorin's fate was weaved by other people, long before he had a chance to decide anything at all. Indeed he never had a chance to change his fate, as it was destined and decided long before he was. Within this context, the Valar are indeed the people behind it all and thus the only ones responsible for all the evil that Morgoth brought into their world. Their passiveness and general "hands off approach" is a reflection of how they dealt with Melkor's dissonance during the singing of the song of creation, allowing him to manipulate the song, worse yet, starting to sing the song along with where he guided them at times.
But hold, there's another one meddling in the affair. Not just the Ainu and Melkor in particular, but someone who made them what they are: Eru Iluvatar. The one above all. The one who decided what lives and what doesn't. The only one who does and did, in fact. He made the Ainu. He made Melkor. He made the Valar passive and Melkor brash, arrogant and ambitious and he was the one who weaved the original theme the Ainu sang to... If Feanor is without blame, because he was fated and destined to fall, then so were the Ainu destined and fated to do what they did and the one weaving their fate and the very fabrics of the world, is Him. Eru Iluvatar. The original fallen beeing. Creating everything as it was, is and will be and then hanging back and watching it all happen, despite seing things go awry and barely ever, if at all, interfering to set things right...Ultimately conciously choosing evil over good, so many, many times...
I loved how you massacred Manwe😀😀😀😀😀
It's a strange dilemma to be in:
Feanor is a foaming psycho who did Nothing wrong
Manwe is a cinnamon bun who did Everything wrong
And somehow I adore them both, but for opposite reasons 🥹
@@GirlNextGondor Oh man! you hit the nail right on the head!!!
This whole argument is on a really long stick. But interesting!
Call it a "Morgoth's Argument."
Oil torches don't burn hot enough to melt Teleri ships!
They hid it in plain sight...
You really think Galadriel would follow those who killed her mothers kin?
Lmao
Fire is always a deadly threat to wooden ships caulked with tar. Everything on them is flammable. They don’t “melt” when they catch fire; they burn.
You mentioned in another video that no characters are supposed to be 100% pure evil or pure good, so there's grounds for doubt
No matter how you cut it, the Valar do not come across well in Tolkien's Legendarium. They are quite frustrating as a group and their decisions often make little to no sense. But then, their real-world, mythic counterparts, whether Greek or Norse or Vedic, are even more frustrating and senseless.
I was about to leave a like but then you said it was in solidarity with Feanor😡
Your disclaimer and advice that kinslaying is not a good thing was humorous.
*Rubs chin* Hmmmmm *Eyebrow raises* 😁
I'm just saying you gotta look into it 😆
@@GirlNextGondor Video was brilliant as always! 👌
Oh. So we're going to explore kinslaying denial theory. This should be uncomfortable....
(only ten minutes in, and this is so good.)
The house of Finwe are the champions of Awkward Family Dinner Conversations. 😊