I have been following your channel for a while, and I amazed by the amount of work, research, dedication, that you put into it. The result is information for your viewers that is difficult to come by otherwise, unless spending an inordinate amount of time.
In 2018 we began a gut-rehab of two adjacent buildings we joined together (one 100+ years and one built in late 60s). We used mainly closed cell foam. Our heating and cooling costs are low. Our bedrooms are on the third floor of the 100+ year old building and the temperature at night remains consistent within the building...the other day we had a sunny warm day and a cool night. The temperature -- with no heating or cooling -- remained between 74 and 72 degrees f while the outside temp dropped to 61 degrees. Enjoy your thorough analysis of building materials and methods.
Great information! I have a house being built (should be done near the end of May), and the builder is using spray foam and air sealing it. The house is all electric and looks to have really good air flow. From watching the video, I feel better about the spray foam and how energy efficient it should be.
I'm now a home builder in the US, after doing commercial and residential construction in Alberta for the last 16 years. As the owner, I've been in a unique position to try many different things. When Alberta implemented its 'Energy Efficiency Program' 6-7 years ago, it caused many of us incredible headaches. While there may have been some builders involved in drawing it up, It was obviously written mainly by people who have probably never built anything. The incredible R value requirements (R21 wall average, R68 attic if no HRV, etc.) pushed insulation manufacturers to make almost mythical claims on their products, which of course cost many times what standard products had cost. This forced me into spray foam considerations. After tons of research (which I was happy to see recently corroborated on your own channel!), I've settled on the 'flash and batt' method for buildings here in Missouri. Assuming all new construction is 2x6 exterior wall (I'm appalled to say that most builders are still using 2x4 in this area, but it will never happen on one of my builds), I start with 2 inches of closed cell foam. This gives me the increase in rigidity, the vapor barrier on the outside of the cavity, as well as wind proofing. I'm now still able to wire the building because there is 3.25" of cavity remaining open. When everything is done, we finish off the space with craft-faced R-12 fiberglass. I DO NOT like fiberglass insulation. It is one of the most misunderstood and overestimated products in the history of building. However, by placing it on the 'warm side' of 2 inches of CC foam, we've negated its weaknesses. First, there is no draft, so it actually works. Second, it never gets very cold so its actual rating doesn't stray too far from the factory R-value determined at ~70°F. I'm about to finish a house with this method used, and am expecting my thermal imaging camera to show up any day. I'll be sure to post the results. Belinda, thanks so much for all the work you're doing!
I’m in St. Louis. I live in a historic full masonry building built in 1903, and have also settled on flash and batt with rock wool as per Section 5.4 in NREL “Measure Guideline: Internal Insulation of Masonry Walls.“ I am only able to fur out selected walls with 2 x 4s, so this limits what I can do to achieve R15 or greater. As I understand it, St. Louis is in ASHRAE Climate Zone 4. According to Fine Homebuilding “Why Flash and Batt Makes Sense,” I should use 1 1/2” closed cell spray foam in Zone 5. They don’t mention Zone 4. This leaves me 2” in my stud spaces. Rock Wool makes a 2” thick batt in their AFB Acoustic Fire Batt line. It is R-3.7/inch. So the flash and batt should give me about R17 in toto. I will not be able to afford to pay someone to insulate these exterior walls for me, so I will be learning to use Dow Froth-Pak insulation, which is closed cell. I found a good price at Industrial Products. I would not want to use a Kraft faced fiberglass in my situation because the spray foam already provides a vapor barrier and the Kraft backing would add a second vapor barrier.
this is the video I've been waiting for. I've been very curious about the environmental impact of spray foam. even though it's a long term plastic, it's still a plastic. with so many other options out there it feels like an unnecessary concession to use plastic for insulation. I'm heavily leaning toward cellulose for our attic (and walls?). thanks so much for these insulation videos. you've been one of my primary sources in all of my research.
It is a plastic sure, but it’s really mostly air. And it saves so much petroleum product by insulating very very well its negative imoact is far outweighed by the energy savings. That’s not to say that everything‘s perfect, but what it?
@@FreekHoekstra yeah i'm not saying it doesn't have its benefits, my personal preference is to avoid stuff that will eventually end up in landfills or be toxic. And we heat primarily with a heat pump sourced from municipal power that comes from 93% carbon free sources. No choice is perfect and we've no way of knowing ultimately what the BEST choice is environmentally with all the different factors, but given the info i have right now i'd like to avoid plastic insulation and go for something else that seems to work very well also. Thus the cellulose is looking like a good option. wouldn't have been able to navigate all these nuances without Belinda's videos.
@@jasonreed6262 yeah there’s a bunch of good options personally I do like the idea of using close cell foam for thin layer say 2 inches and then filling the rest with less chemical solutions, The main benefit that this provides is a very good air seal which means there’s also no condensation happening in your walls which means they last for pretty much forever. I think that’s a part that a lot of people forget about it if you make your building last for 20 years longer because it has been air sealed properly spray foam, that’s a lot of material not going to the dump either
@@FreekHoekstra very nice points. A small amount for air sealing / delay EVERYTHING from landfills longer. i like it. fortunately i'm not the one who will be ULTIMATELY making the decision as... it won't be DIY :). our house is about 50 years old and has insulation... but not a ton and not well installed and i've no clue about the walls or above the gararge. definitely need a professional to look at it. but yes air sealing i think is going to be a big factor i didn't really know about a few months ago before i started going down the youtube rabbit hole. just out of curiosity, what's your relationship to insulation? a home owner? a homeowner who has done DIY insulation stuff? a contractor of some kind? just someone who finds this stuff interesting?
@@jasonreed6262 just be careful when you air seal an old house, if it’s done improperly it can cause the wood to rot and die, Remember you can’t really keep water out you have to make sure it is still able to dry to the outside, Another good channel to pay attention to might be the bill show or Matt Risinger. He has a lot of information regarding this type of construction and renovation. Anyways yes your ceiling is super important if you don’t hear seal your house but insulate it’s like wearing a down jacket but not closing it while going down the ski slope, it’s not pointless but close.
A lot of the peeling back issues are also happening a lot lately because everyone had to change their formulation for the greener gasses. I believe most manufacturers still haven't gotten their formula back where it used to be.
Thank you! I'm deciding between spray foam and other options on my bus build so this video was right on cue. Your evaluations always seem honest and helpful. Please keep it up!
For insulating a vehicle use closed cell foam. And DO NOT USE THAT STUFF YOU CAN BUY AT THE LUMBERYARD! Those cans, even the tanks they sell at lumberyards are meant for sealing cracks and joints not for doing large areas. Figure for every square foot of foam you’re adding approximately 3 pounds of weight to the vehicle. For what you have in mind find a licensed and bonded spray foam insulation professional.
@@jamesmchugo9422 Thanks James! Yes, I'll definitely have it professionally done if I go that route. There's another consideration specific to vehicles that I'm looking into - squeakiness! Ours is a shuttle bus and the original foam board insulation made an awful racket as the bus flexed and shook. If the spray foam does the same from either delamination or just from its contact to covering materials that's a show stopper for us.
@@JordanWorkshop I should have asked, are you insulting for temperature or sound? The foam will give you the best R value, but it’s garbage for sound. If your primary concern is sound look into sound deadening mats. They’re not cheap, but will stop just about all noises from the frame and body. Some even help with temperature insulting as well. Just google sound deadening mats or automotive sound dampening. Good luck.
A university built two identical houses in an Ontario neighbourhood and spray foamed one and traditionally insulated the other. After two years (heating/cooling cycles) they found the spray foamed house used about 50% of the energy as the other. That is a lot less gas, oil and/or hydro being used. I would post the link, but i read about this a couple of years ago.
Air sealing a home in a warm, humid environment is tricky, but when managed correctly with HVAC we end up with lower humidity levels in summer, and higher humidity levels in winter (both relative to poorly sealed homes). I have a single story home with exterior ICF walls and a sealed attic, at about 5000 square feet of interior space with an average plate height of 11 feet, dropping the J load requirements from 11 tons to only 3 tons allowed me to afford a geothermal system (with a tax incentive). Which allowed me to also use a desuperheater for lower hot water costs. Supplemented with thermal solar water heat, I pay almost nothing for hot water, and my total HVAC costs over time are dramatically lower than a conventional home. When my geo thermal system inevitably dies, the loop field is still in tact so it’s just an equipment swap rather than loosing the total cost of installation. Foam makes this all possible. There may be other ways to achieve similar results, but not easy or inexpensive. Another factor is comfort level. The stable air, noise reduction, humidity levels, and solid feel of all this apparatus just makes for better living.
Very interesting stuff! My curiosity of spray foam insulation comes from the diyers making schoolies and tiny houses, since their wall cavities have to be so much thinner than standard homes. I'd love to hear your review on light straw clay or wood chip/slip! Similar insulation system to hempcrete(loved your video on that!), But uses a more accessible and potentially local fiber source. I like that spray foam has become better on the environment, but I feel it is still a "kick the can down the road" approach on end of product life. Won't have to deal with landfill problems if we use natural materials and stop adding to the landfills in the first place. Also, I've seen some amazing things being done with mushrooms the past 5 years or so, I wonder if mushroom/mycelium insulation is in our future!
It's the ever ongoing fight between ease of use, cost, performance, longevity and environmental issues. Personally I like glass fiber and rockwool as they have a very low environmental footprint and are stable compounds that doesn't rot, burn or can be digested by bugs or animals. It's primary environmental impact is in the manufacturing where it takes a lot of energy to melt the source materials and blow the fine fibers that makes up the wool. Then there's transportation, but that's more or less the same for most of these materials. It could be argued that spray foam probably has less of this as it's transported in liquid form that on use is expanded to something between 30 to 100 times the volume. Sure both glass and rock wool eventually ends up on the landfill, but they are not more toxic than glass, sand or stone. Any material with organic compounds will degrade over time, and are often susceptible to mold, rot and being eaten by mice or bugs. They also tend to be flammable in their "pure" state and require chemical treatment to become flame retardant. Chemical treatments can also be used to make them more resistant to rot, mold and bugs. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming that chemicals equal bad. It has to do with exactly what the chemicals are. After all most everything can be called a chemical. If it's used in or causes a chemical reaction it is a chemical, and it doesn't matter where it comes from or how it's produced. All I'm saying is that a lot of these products need additional treatments to be safe and sound for long term use, and whatever is used for that has to be accounted for when looking at environmental impact and how safe a product is to use. Sometimes things can surprise you, such as wood based products without any added chemicals that outgases and can cause problems. That's not what you probably expected hearing something was made from wood. Every new product has to be tested and investigated before it can be said to be better than the existing products. After all we don't want to end up with something that has to be treated with kids gloves like Asbestos. That is a material with wonderful properties. It can be solid or a fiber, and it's very stable so it ages well. It doesn't burn, rot or get infestations and it's cheap. All in all it's a close to perfect material with just that itty bitty little problem that it is very likely to cause lung cancer if you breathe in the dust... Another issue that has to be considered are allergens. Products such as glass fiber and rockwool doesn't release any allergens by them selves. I've seen wet insulation that's been sprouting mold however, and that can be nasty. Another thing is the small particles that can be released in the air if you cut or rip these materials. I've not really looked into it but I can't see that breathing that in can be in any way a good thing. So that's a mark against glass and rock wool. As for spray foam I can't really make any good arguments for or against other than what was mentioned in the video. Instinctively I want to put it in the nasty chemicals category, but apparently it isn't quite as bad as my gut wants to think. To me spray foam feels like such a new tech that I'm suspicious. It's not logical or reasonable, so I try to ignore the feeling.
My biggest fear of spray foam is improper mixing and application, especially in this current labor market. You can train people for months but if they do not adhere to the training it will end up costing everyone involved at some point from delayed construction, to dollars, to even health issues.
As a general contractor for over 40 years, I am very impressed with both open cell and closed cell spray foam. Having used it in my own personal residence building on the Southern Coast I couldn't be more happier as it's super energy efficient giving us utility costs at least 75% less than our last home where we used rock-wool in walls and ceilings. We choose a professional who was top notch on the mixing, and product knowledge and it paid off handsomely in positive results. Great video, keep up your insightful posts.
I don't think I'll ever choose spray foam as the primary insulation material, but what it teaches us is the importance of sealing every little nook and cranny of a home. So what I would do is seal every nook and cranny with canned spray foam from the hardware store, as that is exactly what it's designed for, and use rock wool with good R value and sound insulation as the main panels of insulation. The attic, depending on its size and shape, may need to be completely spray foamed though, but that's up to whatever technology there will be at the time of me having to make such decision.
I own a spray foam company. One thing I will note here off what you said about not being able to add plumbing and electrical after application. When using closed cell, you can easily aff after the fact many things. In a 2x6 cavity, we are typically spraying 3 inches ( zone 7) leaving 2.5 inch of wall left to aff a wire or apex plumbing after is some changes need to be made.
Off gassing, hazardous byproducts from being burned, and difficulty in removal when reworking electrical/plumbing or remodeling is a no for me. This is a product imo for contractors who can "walk away" and be done with it then it becomes a big issue for an eventual home owner who has to go inside the wall at some point. I also question life span. But kudos to whoever started testing this product around 1940 lol
@@Lotan-in8og Hardly one sided. She clearly explains both pro and con with lots of context and good general information. In contrast, you offered nothing.
@@MrTeff999 No mention of the health Implications, environmental issues, etc., is this your idea of all rounded review? But if your American then your not worried drinking lead water, eating hormone beef, breathing in toxic PFAs, etc…. You have currently the shortest lifespan of any human in the civilised western democracies….
@@Lotan-in8og 1) Lead in the water -- The US is a very large country. Not everyplace in it has lead in the water. Drinking water is generally handled at the local and state level, as was the case in Michigan that you apparently heard about. Most American's, including me, believe that all people should have access to clean water. I support our president's infrastructure plan that includes money for replacing lead pipes. 2) I don't eat animal products that have been treated with hormones or antibiotics, nor do I eat farm raised fish, and I don't believe other people should do so either. 3) I do what I can to protect the air, which is why I power my house with solar panels and drive an EV, among other things. 4) The fact that so many American's are unhealthy and America's healthcare system is bad, is a huge concern for me. But I personally have excellent health, I'm extremely fit, and I expect to live a very long life. So get off your high horse and don't bother sending me any more of your overly generalized and insulting rants.
I've seen contractors down south in the US, saying that termites like to tunnel up into the stuff, just like they would, do to wood.. I don't know how true it is, but... I don't see them having anything to gain by lying? Personally I'm interested in the "Hemp wool" product you talked about before. When I finally get to build my home, I think I'll aim for that.. And those new studs that have been engineered. The "Tstud" I believe with their powers combined... it'll be a half way decent insulation system. (or captain planet will manifest, lol)
@Eric B Sounds like a good strategy to me. (The zip panel stuff is a somewhat "newer tech" by construction standards) You could probably just take more time, to make sure certain key points in the building are really sealed well, & it balance out? I mean I've heard the term "rough construction" thrown around alot... so if you just had the crew take more time, or if your a home builder yourself, & tighten your standards in certain areas, it could pay off, in the long term (completed house) a lot better?
Belinda you amaze me! Thank you for all your research you explain so much. My new home is getting closed cell foam thanks to you. PS you’re pretty cute too!
A modern home with gas appliances should not be reliant on make-up air from the attic, as stated at 7:41. Even a quarter century ago when I had our gas furnace replaced with a now-obsolete mid-efficiency (induced draft but non-condensing) unit building codes here (Alberta Canada) required the addition of a fresh air intake to the vicinity of the furnace (in the basement), and modern furnaces have dedicated intakes leading to outside.
Great overview of spray foam! I definitely like its ability to insulate against the smallest crevices that rock wool or more traditional insulation might miss, and even though both traditional and spray foam products will eventually find their way to landfill, I definitely don’t like the idea of how messy it would be during destruction. I wish destruction of housing were more green. The lumber from an older house may still be good to an extent. Perhaps not for building a new house but perhaps it can be repurposed more. That said, even considering repurposing building materials comes with a cost.
I remain open to my mind being changed; but, currently I'd prefer rockwool both inside and as the exterior insulation vs open/closed cell foam with foam on the outside. Rockwool seems like a better overall solution. It appears to better handle moisture and sound than foam.
Theoretically, I love spray foam. However, when I consider my subjective risk/reward criteria, it isn't something I see using. Too many things have to go right, and the potential magnitude of one thing going wrong push me toward choosing other insulation and wall construction methods.
Love your deep dives into building materials and methods. It may be common knowledge to experts, but it’s nice for us lay people to have a jumping off point for planning.
When the labour and material cost of batt insulation is compared with spray foam - the foam is more cost effective. This is what I have found in my area.
From an electrician's perspective, I don't like spray foam for the same reason you gave: you can't fish wire through it in a retrofit application. Spray foam does have its place however, you just need to be sure that your plumbing and electrical is exactly how you want it permanently.
I'm installing 2 empty jboxes in each room that stubs out to the attic space(closed attic) in case added services are needed down the road. Spray foam over the emt, planning for future needs.
Great video as always Belinda. I have some I sight from across the pond for you. Here in Belgium houses are 99% brick and mortar I'd say. Probably even more. So spray foam is mainly used in the floor. Under in floor heating. Most of the negative press around spray foam centers around bad applications that start to sag after time. I've also seen it called "the asbestos of our age".
Only thing I would use this product for is sealing gap and detouring air flow in smaller areas. Otherwise Rockwool insulation is the most effective. No worries about fire hazards with Rockwool insulation.
You get it If you have to do that much R&D to equal existing and/or better solutions & still have downstream problems... then it's more about being trendy
The two things that absolutely kill its appeal are the permanence and acoustic properties. Renovation and even just the occasional new appliance will require electric and/or water to be run or re-routed based on the geometry of the appliance or fixture and adding anything from a generator hook-up or welding station in the garage to simply wanting to upgrade from a 15A to 20A circuit will be an absolute nightmare. I have a feeling that houses with spray foam will likely have lower resell values once people realize the difficulty and cost. I also like having a very quiet house. Partly because I can get pretty loud at times, but also because I tend to sleep from 2am till 11am due to the nature of my job. Neighbors leaving for work, delivery vans slamming their doors, farm equipment running down the street or harvesting the field behind my house and trucks delivering oil, gas and mulch or pumping septic tanks all make it nearly impossible to get a full morning's sleep.
The video "Spray Foam Insulation - The Ugly Truth?" has great info to. When I asked a chemical manufacture that makes spray foam the best (marine) foams under ideal conditions are 95% close cell. This means 5% or more of the cells can absorb moisture. The industry came up with open cell to try and deal with the water issue but open cell is an even worse sponge. Spray foam is great if there's never a chance of it coming in contact with moisture.
Spray foam also makes it costly and dangerous to make repairs behind drywall and often times its applied improperly leading to a chemical smell for years and expensive remediation.
I must confess that I am DEEPLY skeptical of the claimed "80-year" life span. I have renovated too many homes with decayed, useless foam insulation installed prior to 2010 where the 'foam' was a toxic, smelly powder that had to be cleaned up, NOT in any way a viable insulation. I adore your channel, and I have learned a lot. But when it comes down to believing a manufacturer's claim versus my own eyes - my eyes win. When properly installed, dense-pack cellulose doesn't settle and is the insulation recommended by Passive House and by Living Future biophilic design. So, I'm going for recycled dense-pack cellulose.
I believe the industry has made huge improvements to the product since 2010. The applicator is probably to blame, they were asked to be a chemist on a job site! It's a tricky product to get right.
@@BelindaCarr True, but I argue that the best products are pretty much idiot-proof. Any product/installation that requires finesse should be executed by trained licensed professionals. So far as I know, there is NO certification program for spray foam installers. Essentially, it doesn't matter whether it was the installation or the product; either way, it didn't work out. So, I'm sticking with recycled cellulose, in spite of the allure of products that offer air sealing as well as insulation. Chalk it up to my suspicious nature. Thanks again for a fascinating and informative channel. Keep up the good work!
@@Homeairquality I could be wrong, but it looked the same as decayed synthetic latex foam cushions. After a while, those resilient foams become brittle and powdery and they go orange and then brown. The stuff I encountered was not chalky. It also smelled like plastic. I'm sorry to confess ignorance, but I don't know what "uffi" is, so I have no idea if that's what I encountered. The homeowners that I was remodelling for thought it was spray foam.
@@lindacgrace2973 Urea Formaldehyde Foam Insulation. It's a type of spray foam that was mostly used in retrofits in the 1970's in response to the first arab oil embargo.
Its easy to remove, you get a wire brush on a grinder and you just rip it off, it does take some time depending on the power of the tool. But I mean if you are removing it in 30-40 years your either going to be ripping out the entire wall and everything but the studs or your fixing a section or adding a line of water or power and then yeah your just going to put a large wirewheel brush on a grinder and have that tear it out with a vacuum attachment to suck up most of the shredded foam along the installation path.
Very interesting about the lack of sound deadening. I have been looking for something to help keep sound from the street out of my rooms. Guess it's back to rockwool.
Spray foam definitely has its place. IMO where you have limited cavity depth and serious sun exposure, but need high R value the stuff is great. Where there is no ceiling/attic cavity & wallboard is direct applied to rafters it works well. The downside that once it's in it is hell to remove is a real concern for project planning & later remodeling. Perhaps spray foam could be combined with 3D printing of concrete walls for a better R value mix built into the structure.
Electrical could be installed in conduit, which would allow for replacement or upgrades in the future. Plumbing could be done the same way, in conduit, assuming they are running a product such as PEX. I would also leave spray foam to exterior walls only, and stick to more traditional insulation for use on the interior. In the end, planning is THE KEY factor. Without proper planning, someone down the line is going to be screaming bloody murder :P
I'm getting spray foam in a few weeks 3 in of closed then 6 in of open cell on top. For the 2x10 roof. 2x4 walls are getting 1 inch of closed followed by 2.5 open. Hope this was a good choice. My other option is the same thickness closed cell as stated above with fiberglass Batts on top of it. Any feedback please?
I lived in Canberra in the 70s, I married and had children there. We had a house built, and having moved in decided insulation was in order. We were using bottled gase fo heating, the bottle was a permanent fixture and ESSO came around and refilled it as required. We were using a fill every week or two. We had the expert come round and fill the exterior wall spaces with urea formaldehyde foam. It was highly effectiv, we went from using one fill every week or two to using about one a year. The delivery driver thought we'd changed to electric heating. There was some concern about formaldehyde escaping (not at our place), measurements showed it settled down to background in a few days. It happened, we went away for a while after the job was done. The foam is no longer used, but urea formaldehyde is used in gluing plywood, particle board and MDF, with similar results to the air inside homes.
I believe spray foam is the best option for 98% of applications, even just the 2” flash and batt method to hit the R value code. The batt mat not do anything but it’s still better than 6” of just batt. I can also vouch for the diy part, it’s a difficult skill & even more difficult if you use the kits as the disposable gun is finicky.
Ultimately the cons are too great. Even for those with deep pockets. My summary take 1) remodeling too difficult 2) not DIY friendly/ application must be perfect If you remove cost from the equation. & just want The “best” insulation package- obviously just a novice opinion, feel free to disagree & state why:)… - extra thick exterior foam insulation, like a double layer around 4” thick and use something like blow in cellulose in the wall cavities. Less chance for errors, no future remodeling headache, or off gassing delaminating problems.
A video on cob and strawbale construction pros and cons would be helpful for those who do not want any petrochemicals whatsoever in their home construction, and who live in Northern colder climates. Love your videos and hope you have a wonderful day
A consideration for me in renovating my house was that if I had a leak develop in the roof, a nail backing out or other minor leak source, it would be very hard to find behind the monolithic structure of a foam seal. Water can run for amazing distances and is unrelenting. This compounded with possible mold problems accompanying the possible leak put me off. What has worked amazingly well is a radiant heat barrier.(I’m in south Florida.) it is relatively cheap, easy to install and very effective. A builder told me he could tell which homes under construction in a development had the barrier as in the late afternoon, the work crew congregated in those shells/houses as they were consistently 10-15 degrees F cooler, windows and doors or not. I could see spraying to seal to control air flow and doing the bulk of my insulation with a radiant barrier and conventional battens in the attic floor. A composite approach.
I stumbled upon your channel researching spray foam. There are so many different opinions regarding spray foam that it can make your head spin! I am currently building a new home and almost went with conventional insulation until my HVAC encouraged me to research spray foam further. Your video was the most helpful I've seen, taking a scientific approach to explain how it works along with the pros and cons of each type and it's misconceptions. Thank you!
Hi Belinda. Thanks for the well explained videos. I live in Canada. Our attic was spray foamed with 6 inches of closed cell foam directly on the upper interior roof structure. The 6 inches filled the cavity between the rafters but not the rafters themselves. 14 years later rot is in many places along the ridge board and top of the rafters. Ant are nesting in many spots. According to the numbers you mention for water vapour transfer, it sounds like my 6 inches of spray foam should not be allowing water vapour to seep through to the cold roof boards above. Could water vapour be getting absorbed through the non insulated rafters then in turn condensing against the exterior thereby rotting the surrounding wood structure ? Thanks.
Everyone wants this these days because it reduces heating and AC costs by a ton when done properly, sealing every nook and cranny. I mean everyone intelligent that is.. It has its disadvantages, like not so great fire resistance, but you can offset that by precautions like fire alarms so you get warned early and having multiple quality extinguishers around the house ready to go when something happens. That you should have regardless of the insulation choice tho.
There is one HUGE problem with spray foam insulation: how airproof it is. The roof wood is dried too often as a industrial process, which makes it dry in like 5mm depth (generally as deep as needles of tester can detect). Deep inside it is most often still wet wood as it was not been dried for last 2-3 years. This causes wood to rot if is is covered with foam. Very dangerous and unhealthy. If you make the wood "outside" then it can easily rot due to water (both rain and condensation) as all these special (breathing) foils are in most cases in very bad condition after 5-10 years. This is more a problem with wood, but this problem is almost non-present if you are using fiber.
There is a gentleman on TH-cam who bought land in Arizona and had a “prefab shed home” delivered that he currently lives in. He had someone come in and install the spray foam into the walls of this home. What concerns me is he hasn’t installed Sheetrock over the foam leaving the foam uncovered. Isn’t that toxic? I’m concerned for his safety.
If you have other options for insulation, then you should avoid spray foam at all costs. You should always use recyclable or CO2-neutral materials as much as possible. Especially in the USA, where people are already building a lot with wood in an exemplary way, it would be a real shame to contaminate the wood with this spray foam. All the advantages that spray foam has today will be the disadvantages of those who have to tear down the house, i.e. our children and grandchildren.
I can not find any information on open cell foam and moisture problems. One video showed that moisture slowly goes into the open cell foam over time and stays there, like a sponge almost. Do anyone know about this?
Closed cell is the best, when it is sprayed on have your installer put a small amount on the lumber it helps stop heat transfer through the wood and also will stop your house from burning down.
Correction: combustion air is drawn through an insulated duct from the outside of the house. From the front sides or rear, or from the roof, not the attic.
Great overview, thanks! I like the idea of spray foam, but the cost compared to fiberglass, and difficulty of revisions tend to discourage me from using it. I'm considering options for converting an attic to a heated space with a vaulted roof. I'd love to see a video from you describing the differences between hot and cold roof systems and the considerations when converting.
Open cell spray foam can be worked with pretty easily after application because it is soft. Additionally, you can repair it with great stuff/can based spray foam. Just remember that you need to restore any fireblock paint protection if it is exposed. Absolutely correct on that it is not DIY. Curing problems can leave a house stinking for months. Get a professional to do it. PS - Remember to add the link to your new website in the description when it launches.
Great presentation. 👍👍 For a future video on spray foam insulation, I would like to see a serious look into fire ant, carpenter ant, and termite infestation of spray foam insulation and how to best avoid & prevent it.
The best part of spray foam is the air tightness, this almost cannot be over estimated. Nothing comes close; Other insulation never meet the R value due to the installation. Renew Magazine in Oz, 5% gap in insulation accounts for 29% heat loss. Whats the VOC of spray foam? Once again great content, as always. Cheers from Oz.
I'm currently renovating the 100 year kitchen of a 135 year old house. 2/3 of the main house was renovated and I used a mixture of rockwool and fibreglass as insulation. The house is not nearly airtight...field stone foundations and old windows contribute to this. In the kitchen, I've been leaning strongly towards closed cell SPF since everything is opened up but now I'm having second thoughts. After reinforcing the kitchen structure, I now have 7.5" deep stud bays and 10" for the flat roof's rafters. SPF is very expensive right now, $1.75/bdft in my part of Ontario. But SPF will tighten up the structure and seal it. Comments or suggestions anyone?
@@rainaldkoch9093 You are right in that sentence. Saying that, many structures, not only hosues, that are demolished, are in decent condition. It onther way, the needs / purpose changes and that dictates the demolishion.
Belinda, thanks for breaking up the video into organized sections and the great detail. Very helpful. There is a comment in the R value section where you say foam may not meet code. I'm having trouble understanding that. Open cell foam has the same R-value as fiberglass batt (about R 3.5 and closed cell has an R value of about 5.5), so how is it that if cell foam has an equivalent or higher R value than fiberglass batt, it doesn't meet code? Or are you just pointing out that CI is necessary to meet code for both fg and foam?
Refinished the 3rd floor walk up on a 100 yo brick structure. Sprayed 1.5 inches to the underside of the roof deck. Put a warm hat on the house. House is still leaky but not nearly as much. I did see a sound and insect proofing benefit. No insulation previously meant we heard every street sound and critters passed un hindered. After I only hear the loudest straight pipes and if my wife complains about 1-3 stink bugs a month in winter that’s a busy month. Well worth the investment. Bat insulation was not an option because venting the roof deck would have been a nightmare.
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I have been following your channel for a while, and I amazed by the amount of work, research, dedication, that you put into it. The result is information for your viewers that is difficult to come by otherwise, unless spending an inordinate amount of time.
Thank you!!
In 2018 we began a gut-rehab of two adjacent buildings we joined together (one 100+ years and one built in late 60s). We used mainly closed cell foam. Our heating and cooling costs are low. Our bedrooms are on the third floor of the 100+ year old building and the temperature at night remains consistent within the building...the other day we had a sunny warm day and a cool night. The temperature -- with no heating or cooling -- remained between 74 and 72 degrees f while the outside temp dropped to 61 degrees. Enjoy your thorough analysis of building materials and methods.
I'm going to subscribe. It's very hard to find intelligent well explained answers online.
Great information! I have a house being built (should be done near the end of May), and the builder is using spray foam and air sealing it. The house is all electric and looks to have really good air flow. From watching the video, I feel better about the spray foam and how energy efficient it should be.
I learn a lot from your channel Belinda. Thank you.
Same here!
I did not even know that open-cell foams exists before the lady's videos. This is because I only ever see closed-cell foams sold in my place.
I'm now a home builder in the US, after doing commercial and residential construction in Alberta for the last 16 years. As the owner, I've been in a unique position to try many different things. When Alberta implemented its 'Energy Efficiency Program' 6-7 years ago, it caused many of us incredible headaches. While there may have been some builders involved in drawing it up, It was obviously written mainly by people who have probably never built anything.
The incredible R value requirements (R21 wall average, R68 attic if no HRV, etc.) pushed insulation manufacturers to make almost mythical claims on their products, which of course cost many times what standard products had cost.
This forced me into spray foam considerations.
After tons of research (which I was happy to see recently corroborated on your own channel!), I've settled on the 'flash and batt' method for buildings here in Missouri.
Assuming all new construction is 2x6 exterior wall (I'm appalled to say that most builders are still using 2x4 in this area, but it will never happen on one of my builds), I start with 2 inches of closed cell foam. This gives me the increase in rigidity, the vapor barrier on the outside of the cavity, as well as wind proofing. I'm now still able to wire the building because there is 3.25" of cavity remaining open. When everything is done, we finish off the space with craft-faced R-12 fiberglass.
I DO NOT like fiberglass insulation. It is one of the most misunderstood and overestimated products in the history of building. However, by placing it on the 'warm side' of 2 inches of CC foam, we've negated its weaknesses. First, there is no draft, so it actually works. Second, it never gets very cold so its actual rating doesn't stray too far from the factory R-value determined at ~70°F.
I'm about to finish a house with this method used, and am expecting my thermal imaging camera to show up any day. I'll be sure to post the results.
Belinda, thanks so much for all the work you're doing!
Interested to see your results!
Hi! I'm in KC planning a build the same way you've described. Can you tell me how it ended up working out?
I’m in St. Louis. I live in a historic full masonry building built in 1903, and have also settled on flash and batt with rock wool as per Section 5.4 in NREL “Measure Guideline: Internal Insulation of Masonry Walls.“ I am only able to fur out selected walls with 2 x 4s, so this limits what I can do to achieve R15 or greater. As I understand it, St. Louis is in ASHRAE Climate Zone 4. According to Fine Homebuilding “Why Flash and Batt Makes Sense,” I should use 1 1/2” closed cell spray foam in Zone 5. They don’t mention Zone 4. This leaves me 2” in my stud spaces. Rock Wool makes a 2” thick batt in their AFB Acoustic Fire Batt line. It is R-3.7/inch. So the flash and batt should give me about R17 in toto. I will not be able to afford to pay someone to insulate these exterior walls for me, so I will be learning to use Dow Froth-Pak insulation, which is closed cell. I found a good price at Industrial Products. I would not want to use a Kraft faced fiberglass in my situation because the spray foam already provides a vapor barrier and the Kraft backing would add a second vapor barrier.
this is the video I've been waiting for. I've been very curious about the environmental impact of spray foam. even though it's a long term plastic, it's still a plastic. with so many other options out there it feels like an unnecessary concession to use plastic for insulation. I'm heavily leaning toward cellulose for our attic (and walls?). thanks so much for these insulation videos. you've been one of my primary sources in all of my research.
It is a plastic sure, but it’s really mostly air. And it saves so much petroleum product by insulating very very well its negative imoact is far outweighed by the energy savings.
That’s not to say that everything‘s perfect, but what it?
@@FreekHoekstra yeah i'm not saying it doesn't have its benefits, my personal preference is to avoid stuff that will eventually end up in landfills or be toxic. And we heat primarily with a heat pump sourced from municipal power that comes from 93% carbon free sources. No choice is perfect and we've no way of knowing ultimately what the BEST choice is environmentally with all the different factors, but given the info i have right now i'd like to avoid plastic insulation and go for something else that seems to work very well also. Thus the cellulose is looking like a good option. wouldn't have been able to navigate all these nuances without Belinda's videos.
@@jasonreed6262 yeah there’s a bunch of good options personally I do like the idea of using close cell foam for thin layer say 2 inches and then filling the rest with less chemical solutions, The main benefit that this provides is a very good air seal which means there’s also no condensation happening in your walls which means they last for pretty much forever. I think that’s a part that a lot of people forget about it if you make your building last for 20 years longer because it has been air sealed properly spray foam, that’s a lot of material not going to the dump either
@@FreekHoekstra very nice points. A small amount for air sealing / delay EVERYTHING from landfills longer. i like it. fortunately i'm not the one who will be ULTIMATELY making the decision as... it won't be DIY :). our house is about 50 years old and has insulation... but not a ton and not well installed and i've no clue about the walls or above the gararge. definitely need a professional to look at it. but yes air sealing i think is going to be a big factor i didn't really know about a few months ago before i started going down the youtube rabbit hole.
just out of curiosity, what's your relationship to insulation? a home owner? a homeowner who has done DIY insulation stuff? a contractor of some kind? just someone who finds this stuff interesting?
@@jasonreed6262 just be careful when you air seal an old house, if it’s done improperly it can cause the wood to rot and die,
Remember you can’t really keep water out you have to make sure it is still able to dry to the outside, Another good channel to pay attention to might be the bill show or Matt Risinger. He has a lot of information regarding this type of construction and renovation. Anyways yes your ceiling is super important if you don’t hear seal your house but insulate it’s like wearing a down jacket but not closing it while going down the ski slope, it’s not pointless but close.
A lot of the peeling back issues are also happening a lot lately because everyone had to change their formulation for the greener gasses. I believe most manufacturers still haven't gotten their formula back where it used to be.
Idk anything about architecture or civil engineering but find your channel really interesting. Congrats on reaching almost 200k subscribers!
Thank you!
Thank you! I'm deciding between spray foam and other options on my bus build so this video was right on cue. Your evaluations always seem honest and helpful. Please keep it up!
For insulating a vehicle use closed cell foam. And DO NOT USE THAT STUFF YOU CAN BUY AT THE LUMBERYARD! Those cans, even the tanks they sell at lumberyards are meant for sealing cracks and joints not for doing large areas. Figure for every square foot of foam you’re adding approximately 3 pounds of weight to the vehicle. For what you have in mind find a licensed and bonded spray foam insulation professional.
@@jamesmchugo9422 Thanks James! Yes, I'll definitely have it professionally done if I go that route. There's another consideration specific to vehicles that I'm looking into - squeakiness! Ours is a shuttle bus and the original foam board insulation made an awful racket as the bus flexed and shook. If the spray foam does the same from either delamination or just from its contact to covering materials that's a show stopper for us.
@@JordanWorkshop I should have asked, are you insulting for temperature or sound? The foam will give you the best R value, but it’s garbage for sound. If your primary concern is sound look into sound deadening mats. They’re not cheap, but will stop just about all noises from the frame and body. Some even help with temperature insulting as well. Just google sound deadening mats or automotive sound dampening. Good luck.
@@jamesmchugo9422 It's for temperature insulation. I just don't want it to also sound like I'm in an aviary while driving down the road.
@@JordanWorkshop you may want to use a combination of the mats for sound proofing and foam for temperature control. Good luck with your project.
Belinda! Would you be interested in making a video on “straw bale” construction? Thanks for making and sharing the content you do!
You are amazing! Very insightful and informative. I actually feel lucky I found your channel :-)
A university built two identical houses in an Ontario neighbourhood and spray foamed one and traditionally insulated the other. After two years (heating/cooling cycles) they found the spray foamed house used about 50% of the energy as the other. That is a lot less gas, oil and/or hydro being used. I would post the link, but i read about this a couple of years ago.
Spray foam allows a 90% reduction in heat loss when properly installed in houses renovated in the Toronto area.
Air sealing a home in a warm, humid environment is tricky, but when managed correctly with HVAC we end up with lower humidity levels in summer, and higher humidity levels in winter (both relative to poorly sealed homes). I have a single story home with exterior ICF walls and a sealed attic, at about 5000 square feet of interior space with an average plate height of 11 feet, dropping the J load requirements from 11 tons to only 3 tons allowed me to afford a geothermal system (with a tax incentive). Which allowed me to also use a desuperheater for lower hot water costs. Supplemented with thermal solar water heat, I pay almost nothing for hot water, and my total HVAC costs over time are dramatically lower than a conventional home. When my geo thermal system inevitably dies, the loop field is still in tact so it’s just an equipment swap rather than loosing the total cost of installation.
Foam makes this all possible. There may be other ways to achieve similar results, but not easy or inexpensive.
Another factor is comfort level. The stable air, noise reduction, humidity levels, and solid feel of all this apparatus just makes for better living.
Very interesting stuff! My curiosity of spray foam insulation comes from the diyers making schoolies and tiny houses, since their wall cavities have to be so much thinner than standard homes. I'd love to hear your review on light straw clay or wood chip/slip! Similar insulation system to hempcrete(loved your video on that!), But uses a more accessible and potentially local fiber source.
I like that spray foam has become better on the environment, but I feel it is still a "kick the can down the road" approach on end of product life. Won't have to deal with landfill problems if we use natural materials and stop adding to the landfills in the first place.
Also, I've seen some amazing things being done with mushrooms the past 5 years or so, I wonder if mushroom/mycelium insulation is in our future!
It's the ever ongoing fight between ease of use, cost, performance, longevity and environmental issues. Personally I like glass fiber and rockwool as they have a very low environmental footprint and are stable compounds that doesn't rot, burn or can be digested by bugs or animals. It's primary environmental impact is in the manufacturing where it takes a lot of energy to melt the source materials and blow the fine fibers that makes up the wool. Then there's transportation, but that's more or less the same for most of these materials. It could be argued that spray foam probably has less of this as it's transported in liquid form that on use is expanded to something between 30 to 100 times the volume. Sure both glass and rock wool eventually ends up on the landfill, but they are not more toxic than glass, sand or stone.
Any material with organic compounds will degrade over time, and are often susceptible to mold, rot and being eaten by mice or bugs. They also tend to be flammable in their "pure" state and require chemical treatment to become flame retardant. Chemical treatments can also be used to make them more resistant to rot, mold and bugs.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming that chemicals equal bad. It has to do with exactly what the chemicals are. After all most everything can be called a chemical. If it's used in or causes a chemical reaction it is a chemical, and it doesn't matter where it comes from or how it's produced. All I'm saying is that a lot of these products need additional treatments to be safe and sound for long term use, and whatever is used for that has to be accounted for when looking at environmental impact and how safe a product is to use. Sometimes things can surprise you, such as wood based products without any added chemicals that outgases and can cause problems. That's not what you probably expected hearing something was made from wood.
Every new product has to be tested and investigated before it can be said to be better than the existing products. After all we don't want to end up with something that has to be treated with kids gloves like Asbestos. That is a material with wonderful properties. It can be solid or a fiber, and it's very stable so it ages well. It doesn't burn, rot or get infestations and it's cheap. All in all it's a close to perfect material with just that itty bitty little problem that it is very likely to cause lung cancer if you breathe in the dust...
Another issue that has to be considered are allergens. Products such as glass fiber and rockwool doesn't release any allergens by them selves. I've seen wet insulation that's been sprouting mold however, and that can be nasty. Another thing is the small particles that can be released in the air if you cut or rip these materials. I've not really looked into it but I can't see that breathing that in can be in any way a good thing. So that's a mark against glass and rock wool.
As for spray foam I can't really make any good arguments for or against other than what was mentioned in the video. Instinctively I want to put it in the nasty chemicals category, but apparently it isn't quite as bad as my gut wants to think. To me spray foam feels like such a new tech that I'm suspicious. It's not logical or reasonable, so I try to ignore the feeling.
My biggest fear of spray foam is improper mixing and application, especially in this current labor market. You can train people for months but if they do not adhere to the training it will end up costing everyone involved at some point from delayed construction, to dollars, to even health issues.
It's not really just training. It's often an equipment issue. One that the sprayers are totally unaware of
There is a safety shut off incase of imbalance on all machines, but all the sprayer bypass it to get the job done faster, so sue the sprayer.
As a general contractor for over 40 years, I am very impressed with both open cell and closed cell spray foam. Having used it in my own personal residence building on the Southern Coast I couldn't be more happier as it's super energy efficient giving us utility costs at least 75% less than our last home where we used rock-wool in walls and ceilings. We choose a professional who was top notch on the mixing, and product knowledge and it paid off handsomely in positive results. Great video, keep up your insightful posts.
I don't think I'll ever choose spray foam as the primary insulation material, but what it teaches us is the importance of sealing every little nook and cranny of a home. So what I would do is seal every nook and cranny with canned spray foam from the hardware store, as that is exactly what it's designed for, and use rock wool with good R value and sound insulation as the main panels of insulation.
The attic, depending on its size and shape, may need to be completely spray foamed though, but that's up to whatever technology there will be at the time of me having to make such decision.
Thank you for this detailed pro and con look at spray foam. Many points I had not considered before.
I own a spray foam company. One thing I will note here off what you said about not being able to add plumbing and electrical after application. When using closed cell, you can easily aff after the fact many things. In a 2x6 cavity, we are typically spraying 3 inches ( zone 7) leaving 2.5 inch of wall left to aff a wire or apex plumbing after is some changes need to be made.
Off gassing, hazardous byproducts from being burned, and difficulty in removal when reworking electrical/plumbing or remodeling is a no for me. This is a product imo for contractors who can "walk away" and be done with it then it becomes a big issue for an eventual home owner who has to go inside the wall at some point. I also question life span. But kudos to whoever started testing this product around 1940 lol
Our company installs closed-cell SPF and your video is very accurate and balanced, thanks for sharing this information!
Thanks, Matthew!
@@BelindaCarr And how much were you paid for this one sided review - what a joke!
@@Lotan-in8og Hardly one sided. She clearly explains both pro and con with lots of context and good general information. In contrast, you offered nothing.
@@MrTeff999 No mention of the health Implications, environmental issues, etc., is this your idea of all rounded review? But if your American then your not worried drinking lead water, eating hormone beef, breathing in toxic PFAs, etc…. You have currently the shortest lifespan of any human in the civilised western democracies….
@@Lotan-in8og 1) Lead in the water -- The US is a very large country. Not everyplace in it has lead in the water. Drinking water is generally handled at the local and state level, as was the case in Michigan that you apparently heard about. Most American's, including me, believe that all people should have access to clean water. I support our president's infrastructure plan that includes money for replacing lead pipes. 2) I don't eat animal products that have been treated with hormones or antibiotics, nor do I eat farm raised fish, and I don't believe other people should do so either. 3) I do what I can to protect the air, which is why I power my house with solar panels and drive an EV, among other things. 4) The fact that so many American's are unhealthy and America's healthcare system is bad, is a huge concern for me. But I personally have excellent health, I'm extremely fit, and I expect to live a very long life. So get off your high horse and don't bother sending me any more of your overly generalized and insulting rants.
Belinda, another job (video) well done, thank you.
I had my basement walls spray foamed approx 3 years ago. It’s an old stone foundation. The results were and are very good.
I've seen contractors down south in the US, saying that termites like to tunnel up into the stuff, just like they would, do to wood..
I don't know how true it is, but... I don't see them having anything to gain by lying?
Personally I'm interested in the "Hemp wool" product you talked about before. When I finally get to build my home, I think I'll aim for that..
And those new studs that have been engineered. The "Tstud" I believe with their powers combined... it'll be a half way decent insulation system. (or captain planet will manifest, lol)
@Eric B
Sounds like a good strategy to me. (The zip panel stuff is a somewhat "newer tech" by construction standards) You could probably just take more time, to make sure certain key points in the building are really sealed well, & it balance out?
I mean I've heard the term "rough construction" thrown around alot... so if you just had the crew take more time, or if your a home builder yourself, & tighten your standards in certain areas, it could pay off, in the long term (completed house) a lot better?
Belinda you amaze me! Thank you for all your research you explain so much. My new home is getting closed cell foam thanks to you. PS you’re pretty cute too!
A modern home with gas appliances should not be reliant on make-up air from the attic, as stated at 7:41. Even a quarter century ago when I had our gas furnace replaced with a now-obsolete mid-efficiency (induced draft but non-condensing) unit building codes here (Alberta Canada) required the addition of a fresh air intake to the vicinity of the furnace (in the basement), and modern furnaces have dedicated intakes leading to outside.
I'm very glad that you had the post asking why this video didn't do so well... I was another in belief of this being the same video as 'part 1'.
Great overview of spray foam! I definitely like its ability to insulate against the smallest crevices that rock wool or more traditional insulation might miss, and even though both traditional and spray foam products will eventually find their way to landfill, I definitely don’t like the idea of how messy it would be during destruction. I wish destruction of housing were more green. The lumber from an older house may still be good to an extent. Perhaps not for building a new house but perhaps it can be repurposed more. That said, even considering repurposing building materials comes with a cost.
I remain open to my mind being changed; but, currently I'd prefer rockwool both inside and as the exterior insulation vs open/closed cell foam with foam on the outside.
Rockwool seems like a better overall solution. It appears to better handle moisture and sound than foam.
Theoretically, I love spray foam. However, when I consider my subjective risk/reward criteria, it isn't something I see using. Too many things have to go right, and the potential magnitude of one thing going wrong push me toward choosing other insulation and wall construction methods.
I tend to agree with you.
Love your deep dives into building materials and methods. It may be common knowledge to experts, but it’s nice for us lay people to have a jumping off point for planning.
Thanks!
When the labour and material cost of batt insulation is compared with spray foam - the foam is more cost effective. This is what I have found in my area.
20th time watching this. Love nerding out w/ Brenda! Plus I have a current project with spray foam.
"I predict an HGTV series...." hilarious! Great information!
Well done and thank you for a very intelligent and well presented video. 👍. And a good piece on the pros and cons and doing your research. 😉👍
From an electrician's perspective, I don't like spray foam for the same reason you gave: you can't fish wire through it in a retrofit application. Spray foam does have its place however, you just need to be sure that your plumbing and electrical is exactly how you want it permanently.
I'm installing 2 empty jboxes in each room that stubs out to the attic space(closed attic) in case added services are needed down the road. Spray foam over the emt, planning for future needs.
Great video as always Belinda. I have some I sight from across the pond for you. Here in Belgium houses are 99% brick and mortar I'd say. Probably even more. So spray foam is mainly used in the floor. Under in floor heating. Most of the negative press around spray foam centers around bad applications that start to sag after time.
I've also seen it called "the asbestos of our age".
Whoa, instead of blaming the applicators, they blame the product?
@@BelindaCarr unfortunately they do, due to ignorance. For reference: we have 17 cm in our floor. Not a mm of sag over 5 years now.
Awesome insight as usual. Thank you for your balanced input.
Only thing I would use this product for is sealing gap and detouring air flow in smaller areas. Otherwise Rockwool insulation is the most effective. No worries about fire hazards with Rockwool insulation.
You get it
If you have to do that much R&D to equal existing and/or better solutions & still have downstream problems... then it's more about being trendy
Being trendy, aka can't think for yourself lol
This was very informative! Thank you!
The two things that absolutely kill its appeal are the permanence and acoustic properties.
Renovation and even just the occasional new appliance will require electric and/or water to be run or re-routed based on the geometry of the appliance or fixture and adding anything from a generator hook-up or welding station in the garage to simply wanting to upgrade from a 15A to 20A circuit will be an absolute nightmare. I have a feeling that houses with spray foam will likely have lower resell values once people realize the difficulty and cost.
I also like having a very quiet house. Partly because I can get pretty loud at times, but also because I tend to sleep from 2am till 11am due to the nature of my job. Neighbors leaving for work, delivery vans slamming their doors, farm equipment running down the street or harvesting the field behind my house and trucks delivering oil, gas and mulch or pumping septic tanks all make it nearly impossible to get a full morning's sleep.
The video "Spray Foam Insulation - The Ugly Truth?" has great info to.
When I asked a chemical manufacture that makes spray foam the best (marine) foams under ideal conditions are 95% close cell. This means 5% or more of the cells can absorb moisture. The industry came up with open cell to try and deal with the water issue but open cell is an even worse sponge. Spray foam is great if there's never a chance of it coming in contact with moisture.
Spray foam also makes it costly and dangerous to make repairs behind drywall and often times its applied improperly leading to a chemical smell for years and expensive remediation.
Thanks for the information Belinda. I always appreciate your thorough information.
Thanks for all your work. Legend.
You don't waste words or my time, thanks
You're videos are so amazing! Thank you for this content
I must confess that I am DEEPLY skeptical of the claimed "80-year" life span. I have renovated too many homes with decayed, useless foam insulation installed prior to 2010 where the 'foam' was a toxic, smelly powder that had to be cleaned up, NOT in any way a viable insulation. I adore your channel, and I have learned a lot. But when it comes down to believing a manufacturer's claim versus my own eyes - my eyes win. When properly installed, dense-pack cellulose doesn't settle and is the insulation recommended by Passive House and by Living Future biophilic design. So, I'm going for recycled dense-pack cellulose.
I believe the industry has made huge improvements to the product since 2010. The applicator is probably to blame, they were asked to be a chemist on a job site! It's a tricky product to get right.
@@BelindaCarr True, but I argue that the best products are pretty much idiot-proof. Any product/installation that requires finesse should be executed by trained licensed professionals. So far as I know, there is NO certification program for spray foam installers. Essentially, it doesn't matter whether it was the installation or the product; either way, it didn't work out. So, I'm sticking with recycled cellulose, in spite of the allure of products that offer air sealing as well as insulation. Chalk it up to my suspicious nature. Thanks again for a fascinating and informative channel. Keep up the good work!
if the product you came contact with his chalky and dusty, its not spray foam. that is uffi
@@Homeairquality I could be wrong, but it looked the same as decayed synthetic latex foam cushions. After a while, those resilient foams become brittle and powdery and they go orange and then brown. The stuff I encountered was not chalky. It also smelled like plastic. I'm sorry to confess ignorance, but I don't know what "uffi" is, so I have no idea if that's what I encountered. The homeowners that I was remodelling for thought it was spray foam.
@@lindacgrace2973 Urea Formaldehyde Foam Insulation. It's a type of spray foam that was mostly used in retrofits in the 1970's in response to the first arab oil embargo.
Its easy to remove, you get a wire brush on a grinder and you just rip it off, it does take some time depending on the power of the tool. But I mean if you are removing it in 30-40 years your either going to be ripping out the entire wall and everything but the studs or your fixing a section or adding a line of water or power and then yeah your just going to put a large wirewheel brush on a grinder and have that tear it out with a vacuum attachment to suck up most of the shredded foam along the installation path.
Amazing insights!
-What a great video!
Very interesting about the lack of sound deadening. I have been looking for something to help keep sound from the street out of my rooms. Guess it's back to rockwool.
What a terrific resource you are for accurate, unbiased information! 👍
Super helpful, thank you!
Spray foam definitely has its place. IMO where you have limited cavity depth and serious sun exposure, but need high R value the stuff is great. Where there is no ceiling/attic cavity & wallboard is direct applied to rafters it works well. The downside that once it's in it is hell to remove is a real concern for project planning & later remodeling. Perhaps spray foam could be combined with 3D printing of concrete walls for a better R value mix built into the structure.
Electrical could be installed in conduit, which would allow for replacement or upgrades in the future.
Plumbing could be done the same way, in conduit, assuming they are running a product such as PEX.
I would also leave spray foam to exterior walls only, and stick to more traditional insulation for use on the interior.
In the end, planning is THE KEY factor. Without proper planning, someone down the line is going to be screaming bloody murder :P
Now I am confused. I was going to use spray foam because I was told it was the best. What is the best?
I'm getting spray foam in a few weeks 3 in of closed then 6 in of open cell on top. For the 2x10 roof. 2x4 walls are getting 1 inch of closed followed by 2.5 open. Hope this was a good choice. My other option is the same thickness closed cell as stated above with fiberglass Batts on top of it.
Any feedback please?
I lived in Canberra in the 70s, I married and had children there.
We had a house built, and having moved in decided insulation was in order. We were using bottled gase fo heating, the bottle was a permanent fixture and ESSO came around and refilled it as required. We were using a fill every week or two.
We had the expert come round and fill the exterior wall spaces with urea formaldehyde foam. It was highly effectiv, we went from using one fill every week or two to using about one a year. The delivery driver thought we'd changed to electric heating.
There was some concern about formaldehyde escaping (not at our place), measurements showed it settled down to background in a few days. It happened, we went away for a while after the job was done.
The foam is no longer used, but urea formaldehyde is used in gluing plywood, particle board and MDF, with similar results to the air inside homes.
I believe spray foam is the best option for 98% of applications, even just the 2” flash and batt method to hit the R value code. The batt mat not do anything but it’s still better than 6” of just batt.
I can also vouch for the diy part, it’s a difficult skill & even more difficult if you use the kits as the disposable gun is finicky.
Ultimately the cons are too great. Even for those with deep pockets. My summary take
1) remodeling too difficult
2) not DIY friendly/ application must be perfect
If you remove cost from the equation. & just want The “best” insulation package- obviously just a novice opinion, feel free to disagree & state why:)…
- extra thick exterior foam insulation, like a double layer around 4” thick and use something like blow in cellulose in the wall cavities. Less chance for errors, no future remodeling headache, or off gassing delaminating problems.
A video on cob and strawbale construction pros and cons would be helpful for those who do not want any petrochemicals whatsoever in their home construction, and who live in Northern colder climates. Love your videos and hope you have a wonderful day
Thanks, Jason. I'll work on that topic!
Thanks you are always so helpful - I wonder about polyiso board insulation for warmer weather , I cannot find much specific information online
You failed to mention SIP's panels. Closed cell foam board wraped between 2 sheets of sheathing.
SIPs can be made of EPS, XPS, polyiso or polyurethane.... that's for another video!
@@BelindaCarr My SIP's panels are also graphite infused as well!
A consideration for me in renovating my house was that if I had a leak develop in the roof, a nail backing out or other minor leak source, it would be very hard to find behind the monolithic structure of a foam seal. Water can run for amazing distances and is unrelenting. This compounded with possible mold problems accompanying the possible leak put me off. What has worked amazingly well is a radiant heat barrier.(I’m in south Florida.) it is relatively cheap, easy to install and very effective. A builder told me he could tell which homes under construction in a development had the barrier as in the late afternoon, the work crew congregated in those shells/houses as they were consistently 10-15 degrees F cooler, windows and doors or not. I could see spraying to seal to control air flow and doing the bulk of my insulation with a radiant barrier and conventional battens in the attic floor. A composite approach.
Excellent as usual Belinda.
I stumbled upon your channel researching spray foam. There are so many different opinions regarding spray foam that it can make your head spin! I am currently building a new home and almost went with conventional insulation until my HVAC encouraged me to research spray foam further. Your video was the most helpful I've seen, taking a scientific approach to explain how it works along with the pros and cons of each type and it's misconceptions. Thank you!
I’m excited for your website!
Thank you! Great video!
Hi Belinda. Thanks for the well explained videos. I live in Canada. Our attic was spray foamed with 6 inches of closed cell foam directly on the upper interior roof structure. The 6 inches filled the cavity between the rafters but not the rafters themselves. 14 years later rot is in many places along the ridge board and top of the rafters. Ant are nesting in many spots.
According to the numbers you mention for water vapour transfer, it sounds like my 6 inches of spray foam should not be allowing water vapour to seep through to the cold roof boards above. Could water vapour be getting absorbed through the non insulated rafters then in turn condensing against the exterior thereby rotting the surrounding wood structure ? Thanks.
Everyone wants this these days because it reduces heating and AC costs by a ton when done properly, sealing every nook and cranny. I mean everyone intelligent that is.. It has its disadvantages, like not so great fire resistance, but you can offset that by precautions like fire alarms so you get warned early and having multiple quality extinguishers around the house ready to go when something happens. That you should have regardless of the insulation choice tho.
There is one HUGE problem with spray foam insulation: how airproof it is. The roof wood is dried too often as a industrial process, which makes it dry in like 5mm depth (generally as deep as needles of tester can detect). Deep inside it is most often still wet wood as it was not been dried for last 2-3 years. This causes wood to rot if is is covered with foam. Very dangerous and unhealthy. If you make the wood "outside" then it can easily rot due to water (both rain and condensation) as all these special (breathing) foils are in most cases in very bad condition after 5-10 years.
This is more a problem with wood, but this problem is almost non-present if you are using fiber.
There is a gentleman on TH-cam who bought land in Arizona and had a “prefab shed home” delivered that he currently lives in. He had someone come in and install the spray foam into the walls of this home. What concerns me is he hasn’t installed Sheetrock over the foam leaving the foam uncovered. Isn’t that toxic? I’m concerned for his safety.
If you have other options for insulation, then you should avoid spray foam at all costs. You should always use recyclable or CO2-neutral materials as much as possible. Especially in the USA, where people are already building a lot with wood in an exemplary way, it would be a real shame to contaminate the wood with this spray foam. All the advantages that spray foam has today will be the disadvantages of those who have to tear down the house, i.e. our children and grandchildren.
Another great video! Thanks, Belinda!
l dont judge other builders or homes. however, l would never, ever use spray foam on my buildings.
Love your content! New subscriber for sure! You are kind of mesmerizing with the accent I have to admit.
I can not find any information on open cell foam and moisture problems. One video showed that moisture slowly goes into the open cell foam over time and stays there, like a sponge almost. Do anyone know about this?
So much for addressing concerns on health - really nothing?
Closed cell is the best, when it is sprayed on have your installer put a small amount on the lumber it helps stop heat transfer through the wood and also will stop your house from burning down.
I love the depth of the information about one subject! Thank you
Correction: combustion air is drawn through an insulated duct from the outside of the house. From the front sides or rear, or from the roof, not the attic.
closed cell foam for the win. 2" of closed cell and rock wool over it in a 6" thick wall.
conduit can help but, it won't help if your laying out the entire floor plan.
That looks like the Q-tip from Gov. Cuomo’s nose
please let me know to make a pontoon block be filled with closed cell PU foam.
Sounds like all pros and no cons to me!
Gonna use it on my ceiling for my unfinished 2nd floor in my house!
Great overview, thanks! I like the idea of spray foam, but the cost compared to fiberglass, and difficulty of revisions tend to discourage me from using it.
I'm considering options for converting an attic to a heated space with a vaulted roof. I'd love to see a video from you describing the differences between hot and cold roof systems and the considerations when converting.
tHanks for that suggestion Dave. It is time for me to change out the shingles and would love to see options.
I chose closed cell because it doesn't allow condensation between it and the steel wall! I dont want to die of the molds.
The cons seem to outweigh the pros. Appreciate the video.
I love this channel
Open cell spray foam can be worked with pretty easily after application because it is soft. Additionally, you can repair it with great stuff/can based spray foam. Just remember that you need to restore any fireblock paint protection if it is exposed.
Absolutely correct on that it is not DIY. Curing problems can leave a house stinking for months. Get a professional to do it.
PS - Remember to add the link to your new website in the description when it launches.
Will do. Thanks!!
Great presentation, kept my attention to the end.
Great presentation. 👍👍 For a future video on spray foam insulation, I would like to see a serious look into fire ant, carpenter ant, and termite infestation of spray foam insulation and how to best avoid & prevent it.
Thanks. Working on a termite abatement video!
The best part of spray foam is the air tightness, this almost cannot be over estimated.
Nothing comes close; Other insulation never meet the R value due to the installation.
Renew Magazine in Oz, 5% gap in insulation accounts for 29% heat loss.
Whats the VOC of spray foam?
Once again great content, as always.
Cheers from Oz.
I'm currently renovating the 100 year kitchen of a 135 year old house. 2/3 of the main house was renovated and I used a mixture of rockwool and fibreglass as insulation. The house is not nearly airtight...field stone foundations and old windows contribute to this. In the kitchen, I've been leaning strongly towards closed cell SPF since everything is opened up but now I'm having second thoughts. After reinforcing the kitchen structure, I now have 7.5" deep stud bays and 10" for the flat roof's rafters. SPF is very expensive right now, $1.75/bdft in my part of Ontario. But SPF will tighten up the structure and seal it. Comments or suggestions anyone?
I have tonzon floor (crawlspace) isolation, basicly it aluminumfoil bags.
I'm intrested in what you think about this. And how it compairs to others
There spray foam will stick to the timber and make it unrecyclable.
That makes me sad. :(
Build a sturdy house and forget about recycling.
@@rainaldkoch9093
You are right in that sentence.
Saying that, many structures, not only hosues, that are demolished, are in decent condition.
It onther way, the needs / purpose changes and that dictates the demolishion.
Belinda, thanks for breaking up the video into organized sections and the great detail. Very helpful. There is a comment in the R value section where you say foam may not meet code. I'm having trouble understanding that. Open cell foam has the same R-value as fiberglass batt (about R 3.5 and closed cell has an R value of about 5.5), so how is it that if cell foam has an equivalent or higher R value than fiberglass batt, it doesn't meet code? Or are you just pointing out that CI is necessary to meet code for both fg and foam?
Refinished the 3rd floor walk up on a 100 yo brick structure. Sprayed 1.5 inches to the underside of the roof deck.
Put a warm hat on the house. House is still leaky but not nearly as much.
I did see a sound and insect proofing benefit. No insulation previously meant we heard every street sound and critters passed un hindered. After I only hear the loudest straight pipes and if my wife complains about 1-3 stink bugs a month in winter that’s a busy month.
Well worth the investment. Bat insulation was not an option because venting the roof deck would have been a nightmare.