Spray Foam Bummers: Make Informed Decisions on Insulating Your Home
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
- YOU HAVE CHOICES. Spray foam is one of them, but it doesn't deliver all the marketing promises. Here are my 9 reasons why spray foam is not my first choice when approaching any project.
Here's how to inspect and test a spray foam installation, if you need it: • Spray Foam Inspection ...
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I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have to call you out on several of your comments. I am researching systems for a custom house I plan to build when I retire. Most of the problems you talked about have to do with hack installers. If you research experts in passive house, you want to seal the house. Then you control the ventilation of the house with an erv or an hrv. And seeing blower door ratings improve drastically after a proper installation of closed cell foam, you really are misleading the people following you. And by stating that the R-value of fibrous insulations makes it equal to the same R-value of foam is just ignorant. Air moves through fibrous insulations, reducing the effectiveness of that insulation. Open cell foam is better than fibrous, but not as good as closed cell. And stating that you need to seal up the outside with zip system or some other similar system is something you got correct. But you made it sound like you'd only need to do that with spray foam. That should be standard policy with any reputable builder. Also, fibrous insulations under the roof deck or in the walls can lead to moisture problems from the inside. Humid air flow through the fibrous insulation and hits cold nails and water condenses on the nails. Over time, that leads to rot that starts at those nail penetrations. This is eliminated by close cell spray foam, unfortunately, not open cell. Exothermic reactions is your way of scaring people? Manufacturers have specific guidelines on how much foam can be sprayed on in a single pass. Once again, a reputable installer is going to follow those guidelines eliminating fires, melted wires, etc. If you are going to do a video like this, you should actually do research on the research. I suggest going to TH-cam channel Spray Jones to learn more about spray foam insulation. That's his business and he backs up his claims with independent and government research. And he's the first to admit that spray foam is not right for every situation. I've never written a comment like this before, but your lack of actually presenting anything backed up by actual facts really annoyed me.
Perfect comment
Actually everything in his VDO is accurate. Your comment only shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Your own comment says you are required to have additional ventilation when using foam, why? Because of moisture. There are homes that are 100 years old that do not have moisture issues or rot because they have proper ventilation. It is code when building a house to have proper attic ventilation and that is to prevent moisture issues and rot. Spray foam eliminates ventilation. You have to add it by mechanical means, and hope it is correct, and also hope the parts don’t fail, bc then your moisture will begin to build.
I'm not sure you understood what he's talking about here. I worked as an energy auditor for several years and have done thousands of audits / retrofits. He is talking about why you don't want to completely encapsulate an attic with spray foam vs using blown insulation. You always want to air seal the boundary between conditioned & unconditioned spaces. However, it's best to use foam to air seal only certain parts of an attic. Those are bypasses like around light fixtures, top-plates of walls, wiring penetrations,etc. While air DOES penetrate blown insulation, if you're insulated above an R-49 or so, it's a negligible amount. Rusting & rot around nails isn't any sort of an issue.
Scuba you write like you absolutely have a dog in this fight. All of your opinions are misguided, fueled by emotion, and seem biased. He made it abundantly clear that having a quality installer will solve most of the concerns he presented. But for 95% of people buying homes (especially in new builds) they either won’t know who the installer is or won’t be able to afford the best of the best installers. Perhaps you should temper your comments in the future…
@@mfman2 Facts don't care about emotions. If I was fueled by emotion and bias, I wouldn't have brought out the facts, but just expressed opinions. If I am "misguided, fueled by emotion", where are your facts to support it. Based on your statement, you seem to be the biased, emotional one!
Though I haven't worked in the industry for close to 25 years, I do have a degree in Building Construction Management. It doesn't matter to me if somebody uses or doesn't use spray foam insulation. They need to do what's best for them. But they should base that decision on facts, not fallacies.
Haha @ 4:57 - "Vapour is like teenager, if you stop it from doing what it wants to do, it's going to find a way to ruin your life instead." Cracked me up. 😂
Ikr?!😂😅
Chicago suburb resident. We took to heart the out-gassing potential of the foam when we were doing our 60s house renovation. So, we had foam applied to areas where this would not be a potential problem. Underside of roof in vaulted ceiling, underside of roof in ventilated attic over kitchen, and crawlspace walls. All other areas were done with either rockwool or fiberglass. We had a good contractor who did quality work, and as you pointed out that is about 80% of the way to ensuring you get a great result.
Great video. I've been leaning towards zip and Rockwool and this makes me much more comfortable with that decision. Thanks, Corbett!
Another consideration here in the SE would be termite warranties. Spray foam in walls and around rim joists will often void any termite protection warranties. While I don't think the termites use the spray foam as a food source, the spray foam provides an excellent material in which the termites can create pathways and remain unseen until considerable damage is discovered. Buyer beware, check with your termite warranty folks first.
Bummer 10, no cavity serviceability. Bummer 11, difficult to remove and remodel. Another informative video. Thanks for sharing! 😁👍
@@animedbz20 first off, your math is imperfect unless you're talking about a monocoque with no studs or other forms of thermal bridging, so on one hand, you're actually far more right than you think you are in many circumstances with simple framing consisting of a 2x stud wall. Metal studs are even more guilty, and the thicker the studs are, the more dominant the thermal bridging is in the total picture of the heat transmission through the wall system.
On the other hand, Nothing is really R-0, so you don't really start with 0, but leaving that aside, in an ideal case, where the insulation isn't being avoided by bridging, just pure thermal dynamic theory, this simple rule holds true: Double your insulation, cut your heat transfer in half. The math checks out, I promise. So you've got a house, you've put 2 inches of foam up, and you turn on your heater or ACm, and then you measure how much power you need to keep your house at a comfortable room temperature, and then you add 2 more inches of foam, you will see the system requires exactly half the energy to stay at that same comfort point. That's not actually a diminishing return. You double the foam again, and you're looking at half the energy to keep it comfy from the 4 inch configuration. The "diminishing returns" of thermal efficiency with escalating R values looks like the increases get smaller and smaller, but the closer to 100% efficiency you get, the more impactful that efficiency becomes. It's not 100% more insulation for 6% efficiency gains. It's 100% more insulation to cut your energy need in half. What matters is your energy need. If you're looking at enough energy, doubling the insulation is worth it, no matter what that one graph of efficiency makes it look like.
If you want to be efficient, you should look to see what your delta T is at max draw and on average, see how much energy you can lose, maybe you don't need much, maybe that delta T is small, and there's not much energy to keep contained, and in that case, you won't see diminishing returns exactly, but you'll definitely not be saving money on your energy costs that will justify the insulation. You need to look at your other assemblies, maybe there is no point in insulating because you're building a teepee with a hole in the top and 99% of your thermal transmission is going to be through the air. Windows are a big step up from that hole in the old teepee, sure, but in some of the designs I've looked at, low insulation glazing accounts for 80% of my transmission, you go from 2 to 4 inches of insulation, you're going to see almost no difference, because the windows already dominate. It's often not the case that the thickness of insulation matters all that much, but if you're just talking about the insulation, your math could be more accurate
@@animedbz20 I can't see your comment, but I have a notification for it... sorry?
@@animedbz20 OK, I'm going to try to be nice, but you are wrong. I know you didn't make up the math, but the math is not the correct calculation for determining your optimal design determinations. Not because you came up with the wrong numbers, but because you are using someone else's numbers who is applying an overly simplistic calculation to the issue of insulation efficacy.
You can stick to this pointless equation if you don't care to know about how effective your insulation is going to be. Some people don't care, they say "code says I need this thing, it's got the R-15 the gov wants, so I put it in the wall,." Those people don't care that their wall isn't an R-15 wall, and they don't want to know about the actual R value. If you don't want to know, cool, good for you.
If you want to know, the actual real life insulation value a theoretical wall will provide, there are definitely ways to get far far closer to actual performance by using more complicated calculations. They aren't that complicated, and we can short cut it really hard with some work done by other people.
This is a good explanation:
www.jlconline.com/how-to/insulation/understanding-r-value_o
This demonstrates how brutal steel stud framing can be in bridging, and how even 8 inch cavities can be basically ruined by steel studs:
www.buildingenclosureonline.com/blogs/14-the-be-blog/post/86806-effective-insulation-r-values-in-steel-vs-wood-framing
Again, you can just plug your ears, but if you want to understand why the numbers you accurately copied from Spray Jones, which themselves are accurately describing the insulation performance of the foam in an ideal circumstance, isn't actually very helpful for planning what kind insulation decisions you should make for the real world, I'm happy to help you understand. You can do it. It's really not that complicated.
@@animedbz20 Close cell foam is not the only way to create an air barrier, so it's entirely possible that the wall assembly with bats will actually perform identically. having a great barrier and r7 worth of fiberglass is the same as having 1 inch of foam assuming all things are otherwise equal. Obviously you have to be smart about your placement of a barrier, but otherwise it's going to perform the same and it's not going to change performance when it gets more humid. In both walls you're going to see thermal conductivity dominated by bridging, and in both walls, when you put them in combination with a low R window, the window is going to be the dominant vector. The BTU performance will be the same.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting you should ignore barriers in your material selection choices, or tolerate shoddy construction.
I gotta be honest, none of this is relevant. What I said is true. Understanding those calculations is potentially very impactful, It can help you save money, build better systems, know which components are worth spending a premium on etc. You don't have to be a nerd, I'm not trying to force you, I'm just telling you that it looks like you're engaging with some pretty pointless numbers, do with that what you will.
@@animedbz20 No system is impermeable except for spray foam? You're not actually making a point here, R value is an accurate descriptor of thermal conductivity, and if you have convection playing a big role in transmission, a different part of your system is poorly built.
No one cares that fractional liters of air are passing through solid materials when you're not calculating your major sources of thermal transmission. Even if they did, they wouldn't be asking about how that could be included in the R value. The R value is measuring something else.
Even when you bring up something like T studs, you're suggesting a wall assembly where the primary issue is thermal bridging, T studs have R values close to bats, so if you bat and T stud, you get a wall assembly that is very close to the bat nameplate value, instead of 25% ish worse. If you're gonna spray foam your whole cavity, your T stud is now the weakest link in that assembly, and while it's going to be better than a traditionally framed assembly, you're still going to have to do the better math if you want to know what the actual R value of that wall assembly
Excellent presentation using facts/reason and delivered in a relaxed way. This is what is needed to allow people to make an informed choice. rather than make assumptions or be convinced by sales hype. So glad to have stumbled onto this.
Thanks Alan, glad you found us
Great video Corbett. It wasnt my first choice but ultimately I settled on it and I think I got a decent installer. I'll share with you the ventilation and dehu details soon.
Hello, I really appreciate your video as it confirms many of the concerns that we have. So the problem that I am trying to work around is that I have a pole shelter with both metal trusses and roof. The roof being attached to 2x6 purlins that span from truss to truss. Would a viable solution be to put rock wool up to the metal to prevent air movement and condensation with a permeable membrane beneath such as SIGA Mijrex to help hold it in place?
Will there be another video about the positives of a properly installed spray foam job? Or what it takes to do it right?
Go down this rabbit hole with IDI:
th-cam.com/play/PLA2EBCA0472F6D67C.html
Wonderful video and fat presentation! Made me think about using spray foam. Wondering what is your opinion on SIP panels? These are factory manufactured and get be covered with gypsum on the inside and air and water barrier on the outside.
So I'm curious. I live in SE Michigan and wanted to insulate my rim joists myself. Early 70s house, aluminum siding and I'm pretty sure some kind of Celotex fiber sheathing without house wrap.
Are you advising against spray foam? Was planning on rigid foam against the rim, sealed in place with can spray foam and then rock wool (on the basement side).
Is that not okay? If it is okay, do you recommend a brand of foam? Was thinking of Afcat extreme or Soudal fireblock. Thoughts??
I love my oc spray foam. Quality installer definitely makes a difference. I had to be on them. Had them come out 4 times to fix things they missed or messed up. They trampled the duct work.
My rule from now on is if I smell the weed,.. then you get to leave.
I am glad I did the ocfoam on the roof. Allowed for easy duct installation, allows for me to be comfortable while working in the construction.
The skin of the oc foam can act as a vapor barrier. Some of the big channels have touched on this. But don't rely on it as a barrier.
Unfortunately your video comes across as a " stay away from SF" video. :/
Sprayjoans on TH-cam is good source. Though is based out of Canada ( cold climate).
Spray Jones...the guy who has a spray foam installation business? Nah, I'm good. I'll stick with actual building science.
@V0lk ni was NOT Spray Jones.
Spray Jones is is how I know the company I hired could have done better.
Spray foam is science. New science. Problem with today standards are based on old science, and old thinking. We have been patching together new tech ideas on these old things.
Most of these issues are neutral if you have quality contractor and installers. In a total wall assembly Close cell is superior. You can use many different wall assemblies with close cell as the foundation of air and water barrier. The one item he left out is how close cell adds to the. structural strength of the wall
Agreed Gary- like any product, there’s a huge impact from HOW it’s used. Glad you agree the issues do exist, but can be mitigated.
What about selective use in tough to insulate/seal areas like around rim board/joists? I did this as a fix for poor air tightness under my kitchen in a poorly built (code) house and it seems to have worked well. I used a DIY closed cell kit from a box store and only applied it 1-2” thick, then covered it with the original fiberglass bats.
So if my attic insulation is terrible and the attic is sweltering in the summer, what kind of insulation should I use?
I have insulated every home I've built, since 1982, with closed cell and I disagree with much of this video, which is a first. These homes are tight, if they leak, there was frame detailing that wasn't done properly. HRV's or ERV's are needed in all new homes. Quality control is critical when inslalling foam, just as with other trade products.
I'm trying to figure out an alternative to closed cell spray foam in floor truss cavity. There's too many odd spaces for batts. Maybe wet blown cellulose. Flash and batt?
Thank you for another informative video.
I would be interested to read some of your sources of information of these claims. I have not found any information that closed cell spray foam, once cured, will off-gas. Only off-gas during the installation process, which is common knowledge.
Ask a SPF manufacturer, they’d agree. The law forces them to put flame retardants into the mix, and they are not chemically bonded.
What about closed cell foam board (over poly) on foundation walls of crawlspace as part of a crawlspace encapsulation job? Would cell foam board be the right choice in that situation?
Pros and cons about all building materials. Now go watch Spray Jones.
Very helpful! With regard to the vapor barrier concern, would this be the same for a Zip-R panel where there’s rigid foam bonded on the backside of the sheathing? Isn’t this now a vapor barrier like spraying closed cell would be on a standard zip or force field sheathing? Thanks!
With zip R the air and vapor barrier is the green exterior, the foam butts up to the foam of the next panel, but that join is still air and vapor permeable, so it's fundamentally different from a continuous internal application of closed cell spray foam. Also with a well installed zip system, you're probably not going to see much in the way of leaks, so you can be a bit more confident about having that hard barrier. Technically, a poorly sealed penetration through the zip, like a nail that wasn't sealed or a poorly installed window, could let moisture into the wood, and then it would be trapped between the barrier and the foam cladding in Zip R or in Zip plus spray, and yeah, that could be an issue that causes water damage there, but again, with a good install, it's pretty unlikely.
For these well sealed homes though, you do have to worry about your internal airborne moisture. You really want to run a dehumidifier, because if you don't you can absolutely run into problems from airborne moisture condensing in seemingly impossible places. You also absolutely want to run circulation, filtration and exchange systems. Those can be avoided with older air permeable construction, but not really with high performance barriers, no matter what form they come in. This channel has some of the best discussions about those kinds of systems if you look through the history.
@@markallen6433 thanks for the detailed response! Assuming you run a whole home dehumidifier and have controlled fresh air exchange and circulation, as long as any trapped or condensation and dry to either the inside or exterior of the close cell foam it should be okay then right? Any vapor on the inside of the cc foam can dry through the wall cavity and drywall inside where there’s a dehumidifier and any moisture on the exterior of the sheathing can dry to the outside.
@@mngo89 Lets assume your exterior vapor barrier is perfect, just for the thought experiment.
The only source of water is going to come from water in the house, there is airborne moisture, and when it's warm the maximum amount of moisture is high and when it cools that amount drops, so you want to have a sense of how cold the air in your house can get. If you have closed cell foam, the interior of that foam is as far as the air can go, so the inside layer of foam is inside your vapor barrier, and also inside your insulation, so the relatively high moisture air won't get to cool down that much when it gets to the barrier, and that sounds good overall, but there is a problem, if you have a hole in your foam, that air can get through that theoretical barrier in a few little spots here and there, which is why he's calling it an unreliable barrier, and correctly so, and there is a good chance that it's your last insulation, so now in a cold climate, those little holes let warm humid air escape the insulation barrier and start to form condensation on the interior of the framing or the sheathing, and it's trapped there on the far side of the foam and the wood wont dry out, this could potentially be a big problem.
In practice, I don't know how common that is.
What he's suggesting is that you have an air barrier between your drywall or internal panels, that keeps your humid air always inside the insulation no matter what, and it's also going to keep questionable chemicals out of your living space. This is a more reliable approach, but I don't know if we're talking about a failure rate of 3% improving to less than one, or if the failure rate of bad spray foam is more like 50%. I can't really comment on the value of the improvement with the internal barrier, just that it's theoretically superior.
If you have a sense that the air might only drop to 50F, you can look up a humidity/temp chart, it's called a hygrometric chart. If you know
how to read it cool, if not, check this out:
www.rotronic.com/media/productattachments/files/h/o/how_to_read_psychchart_f_web.pdf
To put it simply, lets say you want to be dew free at 50, and you keep the house 75 . If your humidity is 40% when you're at 75, you should be dew free down to 50. The whole thing gets pretty complicated, but aiming for that sub 50% humidity makes the system pretty unlikely to allow anything within the envelope to ever sustain lingering moisture in almost all circumstances, wood that's damp will dry up quickly even without much circulation directly hitting it, and you'll never allow cooking or respiration building up enough that you have issues with that either, and you'll have a pretty big buffer in terms of all the stuff in the house and it's capacity to absorb a little humidity, so you can have a big spike of moisture and a pretty small dehume, and you'll be fine.
I'm not sure I'm being helpful here, but feel free to ask for more clarification if I didn't provide a useful answer.
I've also found it difficult to determine what sets particular installers apart. I have no SPFA installers in my area and most others are doing commercial jobs only. They're the most important part of the install but (I think) it's hard for homeowners to make an informed decision on who their installer should be. I'm about to have my basement rim-joists (some with very limited access) and block walls spray foamed as I believe this is another candidate for when HD ccSPF makes sense.
Another great addition to this video is the BS and Beer Show's talk on spray foam in March: th-cam.com/video/p7QxXNIbK8M/w-d-xo.html
What questions are valuable to ask an installer to determine who is more likely to be experienced and perform the job well?
What test-driven assurances can we attempt to negotiate into jobs?
Just curious ,a little off topic . How would you feel about applying a flame retardant paint to interior structural members? I am thinking it would trap moisture?
I’m surprised that air sealing is listed as one of the “bummers”. I’m very concerned about the flame retardants, off-gassing, etc., that you mentioned but I haven’t been able to come up with another way to tighten the air envelope of my existing early-90’s construction home with all brick cladding. Is it possible to achieve modern levels of air tightness with Rockwool or similar batt insulation in a retrofit application?
You can use AeroBarrier; not cheap, but it works. You could also pull the brick siding off, apply a fluid applied wrb, and replace the brick.
The air barrier is pretty much an issue related specifically to offgassing concerns, which is something this guy is focussed on to a level that I don't find compelling, but from that focus, this is a legitimate complaint. You want your barrier between you and anything you feel is a non trivial source of offgassing, so he's going to advocate for an inside barrier under the drywall, and that's gonna keep the house as an air space that only has drywall and other inside stuff in it, and protects the inhabitants from all the stuff in the framing cavities. If you want to stay away from fire retardants, this is the obvious way to go, and you could do this in your house too, with spray foam or other insulation, as long as you're willing to take off all your internal panels/drywall, but that's a pretty big task...
Have you already replaced all your obvious penetrations with more modern standard components? Doors and windows and such? Do you know how leaky your house is? Figuring out that stuff first probably is going to give you better returns on investment, but I don't know the details of your house.
Is there any case for spray on exterior basement walls….? With how damp and humid I would expect basement being a great use case for spray.
Hi Corbett, another great video! Four questions:
1. I’ve heard that certain chemicals, like formaldehyde in plywood for example, off-gas for years and that increasing the amount of ventilation in the room or building will actually increase the amount of off-gassing instead of diluting the chemicals concentration. Could this also be true for the off-gassing of flame retardant chemicals in spray foam?
2. One of the areas in a house that is notoriously difficult to insulate and air seal is the rim joist. If you don’t spray foam this area, what is the best method/material to use instead?
3. I just watched a video from architect Steve Baczek called “Basement Insulation - Farmhouse” on how to best insulate a concrete basement and he recommends 2 inches of closed cell spray foam on the interior surface of the concrete walls and then filling the rest of the stud bays with dense packed cellulose (the stud wall is set 2” off from the concrete).
Steve Baczek video.
th-cam.com/video/2yOqftUuM2c/w-d-xo.html
If not using spray foam to insulate a basement wall, what material/method do you recommend instead?
4. I watched a recent video from Matt Risinger called “Crappy Attics” and demonstrated how someone can turn the standard American crappy attic into an awesome attic by spray foaming the underside of the roof sheathing and “encapsulating” the attic to turn it into usable interior space (he used his own house as an example and had a metal standing seam roof).
Matt Risinger video.
th-cam.com/video/ddjjwY6zzG8/w-d-xo.html
Since you said that all spray foam is technically a petroleum product (and therefore flammable) wouldn’t it be best practice to cover any open, visible foam with a layer of 5/8” fire rated drywall?
You've got a good start watching Steve Baczek and Matt Risinger. Steve designs passive houses and both are very knowledgeable in building science. Look for Spray Jones on TH-cam for fact based information on closed cell and open cell spray foam. Unfortunately, this video is more of a scare video than information based on facts. Take your time researching and choose what is best for you based on facts. Good luck!
This all makes so much sense, but what about trying to seal up rim joists in a retrofit? What would be a good (non foam) method for that?
You can spray on gasket like Aerofixx, but again, it’s about volume. If you’re just putting in that much, and YOU control the conditions (and maybe are the installer too) you can mitigate a lot of these issues.
Question: when you use spray foam in a can and water gets to it it spreads through the cells and holds moister (people do it to repair rust holes on cars and put bondo over it and it rusts three times faster) I would assume open cell would do the same in your house if you have a roof or water pipe leak and I think it would be hard to locate. Am I correct? And would closed cell be any better at this? Also I don’t like that if you later want to fish a wire or something in a wall it becomes a real problem. Thanks for the video. These are things you don’t think about but make sense once its explained 👍
I bet it would, though uou’d at least have an idea that there is a roof leak, and where.
Very informative as always Corbett. A quick question & still regarding insulation. What are your views on building/using ICF's? To me, having only watched TH-cam for information, seem like a great way to build a home, from the foundation to the Rafters. (You have your issues with water leaks, I have tornado/hurricane issues ;-) If you've touched on this subject, please direct me to it, or if you haven't do you intend to look into it? Thanks in advance. (Long time watcher, sometime commenter)
Same question here.
Hey Eric and DK- I generally don’t like to open my big mouth about topics that I have extensive first-hand experience with. So I probably won’t be making a full vid about ICF, but I do think it solves many issues, and many of my clients build with it. The one thing I’d say is that people tend to let down their guard when using a ‘miracle product’ and that is when mistakes are made. Keep a close eye on everything that connects to the ICF, that’s your weak point.
@@HomePerformance Thanks for the reply. I know you are always talking about how there are no silver bullet/miracle products that do everything, & that's what I love about your posts, they're honest. That's why I asked about your take on ICFs. Keep up the good work!
@@HomePerformance is your first sentence missing a word?
What about SIP’s if the foam is encapsulated and your HVAC is setup properly with ERV and fresh air recirc? Any recommendations?
SIPs are not spray foam, but the flame retardant bit still applies. Always just weigh the pros and cons- plenty of my clients use SIPs the way you describe.
Appreciate your independent reviews
So what do you do if you live in a home with spray foam? ERV?
So what would you do to retrofit an attic where stripping off the roof is not an option (50 year shingles with solar already on the deck)? Spray some some sort of liquid applied, vapor permeable barrier and then do bats?
Interesting Q, Todd- I’m not the expert on that one, but I know Landus might be.
Is boric acid used as a flame 'tarder in foam? It's what we used in cellulose insulation in the late 70s. We owned a plant in Charlotte.
I’ve heard more along the lines of brominated and chlorinated TRIS
Most spray foams use TCPP as a flame retarder, boric acid is used as pest control option.
Are there any studies to read that have measured air quality in foam vs Rockwool insulations?
Not that I’m aware sorry
Is injection foam different than spray foam? And would injection foam have flame retardants in it as well?
Spray foam is awesome, especially the closed cell, which because blocks vapor and warms the condensing surface.
Several types of insulation have flame retardants and other chemicals, don't eat it or grid and sniff it. Spray foam is by far the best. Batts sags and comes loose over time and leaves large gaps in the wall.
Some folks on Green Building Advisors advise that there is no replacement for closed cell foam for basements in mixed/humid climates like 4a. Is this really true?
Everything is replaceable, just like every one of us. Whatever it takes to get you an air barrier, drainage layer, and insulation layer.
What about Natural Polymers ULTRA-PURE Low VOC, eco friendly Spray Foam? Does that product still have all the drawbacks as every other spray foam product?
Yes. The only benefit there is the lowered VOC effect, which is not even on my list.
Has the offgasing from the foam insulation of refrigerators ever been studied? How much of that flame retardant and formaldehyde ends up in our food?
Formaldehyde is in rokwool, and flame retardents are in blown in celulose...
Watch spray Jones for accurate information with closed cell spray foam.
I have some great pictures of a spray foam horror story from a recent inspection I did here in SC. Too much lift, bad mix and pretty certain it was sprayed on when the woods moisture content was too high. It's a mess and the homes humidity is so high they grow mold in less that 2 weeks after being cleaned. Unfortunately the spray foam isn't their only problem. The builder literally left the home unfinished after blowing past the budget without warning. It's truly sad.
Sound like a crappy builder not a spray foam problem.
Thank you for making this video. It is super informative! We have never been a fan of spray foam insulation, but always have a hard time convincing people why!
How do you feel about the use of canned spray foam for air sealing around windows and joists?
Just thinking the same thing, there are so many type of canned spray foam out now too, just used window and door spray foam on a door install)
It’s a volume thing, guys, don’t get too focused on the tiny bits of foam. Although I will say there are perhaps better airsealing materials for spot airsealing.
Ive been saying this for years! Everyone argues with me constantly. Ive never seen any evidence than im right, i just simply trust my gut. After installing spray foam, watching the waves of chemicals and smelling it, i always feel- this cant be good for anyone living in it. Where theres money to be made, lies will be told! I think these companies are saying its safe because its making them money.
@@HomePerformance thanks for the reply. What do you generally recommend for spot air sealing?
Check out spray on gaskets- AeroFixx Visconn is the easiest, but also Knauf EcoSeal or OC EnergyComplete
Matt Risinger in shambles right now. Though honestly I'm not sure if you've persuaded me to go back to rockwool or flash and batt in the house I'm about to build. Flame Retardants and VOCs aren't that big of a deal if you get one of the Greengard certified options on the market. You're the first person I've heard mention that closed cell isn't air tight so I would like to see more data on that. While the product can seem expensive, it is double the r-value. In my area rock wool is $1.19 per R15 (material only, not installed) and spray foam is $3 per R15 (material AND installation). If you pay someone to install the price of rock wool would prob hit close to $2. That's not much of a price difference for something that could allow you to have a thinner wall (savings!) and possibly (probably?) give you some air tightness. I'm curious too about your bubble effect comment. If you have a fresh air system why would it matter if both walls and roof are sprayed?
Hey Eric- first ALL spray fosms in the US are required to contain flame retardants. Airtightness is about the installer more than the material- test and you’ll see. And last, the bubble effect just makes the home less flexible, less margin for error in air quality.
@@HomePerformance Also just wanted to point out that even with a perfect install, it still may not remain airtight. This happened to an area (crawlspace) where I foamed the underside of the floor above. Due to expansion/contraction of the different underlying materials, the foam split in several different places. Had to go back and touch it up with some great stuff.
Watch spray Jones dude!
Off topic here. I’m curious if you guys have any interest in discussing hempcrete. I’m looking at doing it and it seems like it hits a lot of the high water marks you discuss without the chemicals and such.
I loved this idea and wanted to use in our new construction home. Problem is the company is not very customer responsive - minimal response to questions via email and there is no phone number to contact and if worried about whether fire resistant or not you have to wait until their fire restart product is available which keeps getting moved back. Frustrating to say the least because I’ve had to forgo using it.
Yes, yes, and yes!!! Thanks for making this video. I cringe when I hear people say that they have an airtight or efficient home because they used spray foam like that was the silver bullet.
May I make a comment on this? I came across this while gleaning more/new/various information about spray foam. I am sensing great amounts of bias, in your body language, your tone, facial expression, and snarky comments regarding spray foam. Did you have a bad experience?
I spray foam for a living in the northern USA and also run a business that does the whole insulation gamut. My only experience is with medium density foam (2lb foam). "High density foam" is 3lb foam. By the way, my machine can spray 30lb military grade foam.
Assuming I understood your video correctly:
TLDR:
1 - Arguably no. 2 - You are half right. Understand your material. 3 - Hard no. 4 - Wut? 5 - This is an unfair claim. 6 - I agree. 7 - Yes! Thank you for recognizing how hard this job is. 8 - I agree. 9 - Can't argue because of reasons.
1. I don't believe the flame retardant in spray foam is a real issue. It's there for a very good reason and the fear of it giving gene mutations is extremely unlikely. The pajamas in the 70's were in DIRECT CONTACT of skin. No one I know these days wears spray foam PJ's. Improperly mixed spray foam will emit bad gasses, that's an inexperience installer fault, or old equipment. Properly mixed, SPF is almost as inert as any other plastic. This fire retardant may be the reason that home in your story had the interior walls sprayed. Here's a video of spray foam not burning: th-cam.com/video/2ZBa1ijiHwY/w-d-xo.html
2. You are right about R-value of OC foam being poo. Closed cell foam excels in this at an average of R7 per inch installed. (this is a rabbit hole discussion so I'm using prescriptive approach, which is easier to understand, rather than performance) My advice for consumers is to make sure of the TYPE of foam that will be installed. Don't pay for expensive and then get the cheap stuff installed.
3. The vapor barrier (the plastic over the wall between the glass and the drywall) argument is only as good (or bad) as the installers. That problem goes away with spray foam. Regarding the roof, why would moisture be headed TOWARDS the foam unless there is a leak? If it got to the point where it is ALREADY LEAKING through the roof then this is a problem whether there is spray foam or not. The only thing that changes is WHEN the problem appears. Spray foam will prevent water from leaking into your home, the downside is that it pools up on the roof which may make the damage more visible and sooner. Hopefully this happens while your roof is still under warranty. Otherwise the homeowner will have to foot the bill.
4. Where's the problem here? The only thing you said is advice based on personal opinion and your friends (anyone can *spray* foam but a spray tech can manufacture proper foam). Most new buildings have the appropriate air handlers to make sure the air quality in the house is appropriate for the building design. If spray foam is installed, the HVAC guy needs to know he's now managing the air in an almost air tight environment rather than a cardboard box with drafty holes, which means different equipment. This is why it's important for the engineer's plans to be followed and if not, everyone involved in the building envelope needs to talk.
5. Again, this boils down to installer skill and proper mix. Fiberglass can be installed by any idiot, that's the appeal for some of the guys I employ. (they get paid very well though, hard to find good help these days) It's unfair to take your WORST spray foam experience and apply it across the board.
6. Very good, now you know the basics of what we do. A skilled and alert tech is cognizant of the environment and constantly reading the field where he will, and has already sprayed. It is a science and a skilled installer has invested time and research into making sure he does the job right. But to call it an experiment makes it sound like one would be unsure of the final product. When following a recipe in a cookbook, is this also an experiment? Temperature, conditions, amounts, etc. yet for the most part, it comes out how you expect. A skilled chef knows how fluffy to make the meringue for the pastry he wants to make. This doesn't happen overnight. Same with foam.
7. YAY! Finally we get to the most important part....the important guy.
8. This is true. I have stuck a meat probe into different depths of foam in a controlled environment to see how hot they get. The hottest exothermic chain reaction was 280F. This varies by manufacturer and the type of blowing agent used. The insulation around electrical wiring can melt in the range of 100-260°C (212-500°F) depending on the makeup of the PVC. Modern electrical wiring will stand up to the heat generated by spray foam. OLDER HOMES may need to worry about melting wires.
9. Insurance isn't my field of expertise so you know more than I do. I have no argument. =)
Your suggestion about making sure your insulation installer (or contractor, or plumber) comes recommended is good advice that we all know but many often forget to ask.
Water generally dries from the outside due to sun when talking about decking lol...
I do a lot of woodworking and my family has a lot of allergies and I want the house’s air to be completely sealed off for the garage. I was planning on spraying foam to seal/insulate the house from the garage. Is there a better way to do this?
Large 50 x 80 hangar... 8" purlins and girts. R 25 in the walls and R35 in the roof using a system by Thermal Design.... but on the hangar door I want 4" of spray foam.... Should I have them do 2" at a time to prevent the heat issue? Hangar in Gainesville FL area. It will be air conditioned
CAR 54......SORRY SPRAYFOAM JONES....where are YOUUUU
10 Extremely difficult to repair or remodel at a later date.
Sadly few builders think of the next guy. I also have a hatred for furring strips on ceilings. When you go to remodel you haven't a clue where the joists are unless you do exploratory surgery as no one has a stud finder that can see the joists that far away from the drywall reliably.
Wow, very interesting point Craftsman (by the way everybody, the second bit here is not about SPF, but high performance home building in general).
@@HomePerformance Also I dug up a good pic I took a while back when I was replacing a wall of doors on a lakehouse with two 14' slider door units. After tearing the wall open the Melamine foam that was poured into the walls was just a hare too small after it shrunk. A common problem with that stuff. Let me know where to send it and I'll send it your way. It's a good illustration on what you don't want in your walls.
Always up for pics- send to corbett at BuildingPerformanceWorkshop.com
I would not spray my entire house- but there are some appropriate applications.
Most high performance builds these days seem to do flash & batt… Is there a sweet spot of thickness of closed cell to use, so we get the benefits of what it’s good at, whilst minimizing it’s bummers? This video made me think about SIPs & what they might be like as far as off-gassing… and how they might perform in a fire. SIPA claims no off-gassing & that they outperform stick built, since there’s no thermal “tunneling”… hmmm… thoughts?
So, what is the "Bubble Effect"? in this video you just asserted that the enclosure of space on 5 sides was bad due to the off-gassing of fire retardants (and other chemicals). What measurements or principal proves this true? what if 3 walls and ceiling were spray foamed? would that negate the bubble effect you're talking about?
Additionally what is the cause of air leakage that spray foam doesn't address?
It’s also the fact that SPF is plastic- it’s literally a plastic bubble, not a figure of speech
you had me at 1.
Problem# 10 and actually the #1 for me is bug issues. My experience with spray foam is that it provides a wonderful home for roaches and other insects. The soft, warm area becomes a breading ground and hotel for these pests.
Interesting point- haven’t seen comparison of fiberglass, cellulose, sheep wool, denim etc in regards to this- maybe they all have issues. Airtightness for the win- keep the bugs outside at all costs.
Fantastic and best video I have seen on foam insulation! The problem with polyurethane foam is is the product of reaction of two materials: polyols and isocyantes. Polyols are relatively safe and can be replaced with bio derived products, but isocyanates like TDI and MDI are some of the most toxic chemicals you can think of (if inhaled at ppm level the respiratory system stops working ). So if there is any unreacted or partially reacted isocyanate in your foam (there are multiple reasons why this can happen) you are in trouble.... Regarding FRs: FRs are basically not used anymore in upholstered furniture in USA. Regulations vary state by state but California State (which due to the size tends to dominate the market) has banned FRs in upholstered furniture. The only type of soft furnishing where fire retardants are still allowed in California are barrier fabrics for mattresses. Finally, you are totally right about the effectiveness of fire barriers vs fire retardants and I look forward to your video on the topic!
Thanks for clearing up the furniture FR question, Mauro!
I’m thinking of doing your video consultation as we plan to do a couple living space add-ons to our house (office/closet and formal dining)
We have a quality contractor that comes recommended by close friend and has great moral judgment.
Would that consultation be able to help us highlight things we want to include in design and material requests as well as look through our home for other potential value add upgrades (max budget on non room addition upgrades ~10k)?
Feel free to book if you’d like help with HVAC/ventilation, but I’m not really a materials expert.
If u live in a climate like the UK, go look at the UK govt warning on spray foam the roof deck before you do it.
Hers Raider? What’s that?
Now this man knows how to inform a consumer to make the best decision for their home! Thank u sir!👏😊
Hey thanks my friend
Ive heard that in the case of a house fire, the fumes from burning spray foam can knock somebody out far sooner than the smoke or heat would, is this just a myth or a factor that should be considered?
Smoke rather than heat/flame is the leading cause of fire deaths in domestic fires. Foams produce more toxic smoke during combustion than other materials for two reasons: 1) during the decomposition of polyurethane toxic hydrogen cyanide is released around 350C and 2) the presence of fire retardants make the smoke more opaque (affecting egress) and toxic. That said once a fire is fully developed the concentration of CO in a building will rise above deadly levels even without foams or fire retardants.
Why a lot of people are all for taking what the cigarette companies legislated into materials back in the 70s-80s back out.
@@HomePerformance I do not believe there is a connection between fire retardant and cigarette manufacturers. Two different issues. Upholstered furniture fires can be started by smoldering ignition sources like cigarettes or flaming ignition sources like open flames (candles etc). The use of halogenated chemical fire retardants was largely used to reduce flaming ignition propensity but did noting in terms of smoldering. Currently in USA we have regulation for smoldering ignition but not for flaming because it is believed that fire retardants chemicals would be needed to address flaming. Well that's not true because we can use barrier layers in the form of fabrics film etc that are actually more effective than fire retardant chemicals as you correctly pointed out. A similar problem does exist in building materials and I am curious to hear from you soon about that
Look into the history of why the FR made it into furniture and everything else in the 70’s
Great video
Thank you so much!
OMG 90+% of what he said was BS!
Spray foam is currently the best choice in most cases when installed properly. Which 99.9% of the time it is. You can't say that about fiberglass or other batt insulations which in my 40+ years building house and commercial is done badly with defects and mistakes 90% of the time but most contractors either don't know any better or don't care and just want to move to the next phase.
If fiberglass batt insulation is installed with just 3% defects, pushed in too far, crushed not fluffy or cut short or wrong and installed with that gap it looses 30+% of its effectiveness. I have never seen a 100 % correct fiberglass job in my life.
Air movement is a factor with all insulation except spray foam. Batts in the wall and blow in in the ceiling will both have convection currents degrading it's proformance. It takes over r50 of blow in to try to come close to r28 spray foam performance. And in my opinion it still doesn't.
Say it's 90 f and full sun outside. An attic with blow in on the ceiling is between 135f and 155f maybe hotter. A spray foam attic will be within a few degrees af the rest of the house and your cooling energy bill will be much lower. If you don't have cooling the house will just stay cooler. Many factors at play this guy didn't address one.
Main point to realize is if you are building new or remodeling you need to know whatever systems you use are installed correctly. Any batt system needs 100% 6 side contact to work correctly. I say you will never get that no matter how much you watch and hound the contractor.
I'm not saying don't use batt type insulation because I do use it mostly for sound but don't let this poor video scare you away from spray foam because it's performance in most cases far exceeds batt any day.
You have to hound the spray foam guys just the same as batt installers. The same humans that install SF are the same species as Batt installers. They don't magically decide to do a perfect job just because its SF. One thing for sure is you don't get to decide if they got the mix right and Flame retardants are going in whether you like it or not. I've been in several hundred conditioned attics and they all feel great when done right. So for me I look at the negatives I'd like to mitigate. Toxins, pests, dust, and fiberglass(lol). Mineral wool for me.
Several years ago, I witnessed a client collapse to the floor of his home that was under construction, about one week after the spray foam had been installed in the walls and roof. I was consulting and designing the HVAC systems for the home, and this happened during my initial visit to the project.
IN ADDITION: In the last 10 years, we have designed and specified over 100 mechanical systems for new and existing residential and commercial projects. In at least 3 of those projects, where the homes were insulated with nothing but spray foam, the heating/cooling coils in the air handlers corroded from exposure to the chemicals emitted (off-gassing) within the first 5 years, and all of them had to be replaced. The HVAC systems we designed in homes without spray foam have never had the same or similar issues. Some non-laboratory, non-certified, DIY experiments were done on the corroded coils, and the results showed that the corrosion was caused by the chemicals that were off-gassed from the foam. Although this was not in a lab, this is not just known by this DIY-experimenter. It is my understanding that certain heating/cooling equipment manufacturers are aware of this as a fact, as well. How exactly the "know" is still yet to be determined, but, they know.
Many have said and will say that ventilating the home for 1-2 weeks will rid the house of all off-gassing byproducts. First of all, that was not the case in one of these homes where they actually ventilated for longer than twice that time, and they still had corrosion. Second, to effectively rid the house of these chemicals is to use a VERY high ventilation rate, and for longer than 2 weeks. Thirdly (but not FINALLY...more to come), whatever chemicals are ventilated out of the home during ventilation are going "somewhere". Dare I say the "O"-word? (I'll whisper it, "ozone").
There is a longer post in the making, but because our friend Corbett Lunsford posted this video this week, I wanted the chance to share his good info/intel on the subject to help spread that good word.
Thank you, Corbett, once again, for a very useful and critical info share. Well done, as always.
Which reminds me, I believe it was on one of your podcasts, Corbett, where I heard from a 20-year spray foam industry veteran,that "only true chemists should really be installing spray foam". Temperature, humidity, mix, etc. are all so very critical.
#sprayfoam #buildingscience #knowledge #construction #build #insulation
Do you have any evidence for your claims? I don't want to call BS, but those seem like sudo-science claims. What type of doctor diagnosed your client? And what tests did he run? How did you conduct your corrosion test? Did you do it in a controlled environment? Did you test multiple combinations of foam and coil material?
Note that old foam insulation can spontaneously combust when the flame retardant has left (especially when exposed to sunlight)
I have been working diligently on homework in all aspects of this trade for better part of a week with a decade plus of building science knowledge and experience annnnnnnd there are a few red flag you pointed out that I need to confirm or disregard. Smells like ignorance or bias however I am not sure about any MO… just being real here.
…. To be clear I immediately dismissed a few of these points immediately, but I was not counting…… good day and good luck with whatever is going on here.
#1: "Phosphorus-based flame retardants have undergone extensive industry and regulatory review, including scrutiny by the European Union. All are widely regarded as safe and nontoxic in the amounts used in SPF, and none are classified as carcinogenic, mutagenic, toxic to reproduction, environmentally persistent, or bio-accumulative."
#2: Moisture blocking is a good thing. Sure, if you have a leak in your roof, the roof sheathing and any wood saturated in water will rot. Upon re-roofing, damaged roof decking can be replaced. Not a huge deal. If a roof is very old, replace it. I'd rather pay for some roof decking than new wood floors and belongings damaged by a leaky roof. Do not use an interior vapor barrier when using closed cell foam.
It bugs me that poorly applied SPF, where the temperature, thickness applied per sweep, and/or mix was wrong, gives the whole industry a black eye and people like this make it seem that this is a common occurrence. We've had three homes all with closed cell spray foam with no issues at all. Problems are caused by bad installers, not the product. Only use a licensed and insured installer, like you should for everything else in a major home project.
Good thinking, but I would like to add to your first point… ‘yet. None are classified, yet.’
@@HomePerformance OK, then we'll assume you know more about this than the science community and consider phosphorus flame retardants bad actors.
Interesting that the Spray Jones channel alluded to your comment about spray foam actually being worse than batt insulation for air sealing. th-cam.com/video/LmdlXp_skCU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=SprayJones I guess if one problem occurs with a home, that must all be at the forefront of decision making of which insulation to use.
I would never use that toxic spray foam for my house.
You forgot one of the most important Bummers, your a/c evaporator coil will corrode and leak!! This is due to offgassing of the spray foam leading to formicary corrosion. Ive seen this hundreds of times as a HVAC contractor in Texas and its very costly on the homeowners.
Since I haven’t personally seen it happen, I’m putting that in the ‘other chemical stuff’ column, but I’ve heard a fair amount of talk about this, Jacob. Wonder why none of this is being researched ($$$$$)…
Fuming and outgassing of uncured components is missing in your summary. Main reason why in Europe spray foam is used as last-resort option.
Watch when banks /mortgage companies refuse to lend due to unforeseen conditions due to foam!!! GUARANTEED
Lol 😆 looks like you should do more research my friend... not saying some of your points aren't valid but your way off on alot of those points u mention :/!.
Feel free to enlighten us all Jim, if you have credible info
Wait…the spray foam contains cancer causing agents?
One more - it doesn't like ultraviolet light...
R value means nothing dude!!! It's all about air leakage!!! Batts aren't an r7 when they say it is, foam is!
Corbett, I just don’t understand why you spend time producing these anti-foam videos and commentaries…..I suspect an outside influence. A man with your experience in building science knows there is no such thing as a “perfect” building material….but ccSPF comes pretty close. There are literally hundreds of properly installed spray foam projects done every month in this country. If your list of “Bummers” were even close to the reality, we wouldn’t need you to tell us. The spray foam industry is certainly aware of the problems resulting from poor installation practices and is constantly working to improve QC and product quality. Your other statements regarding fire retardants, vapor barrier, bubble effect and the rest just have no basis in fact…..if you have legitimate back up documentation, please present it…..or please move on……there are certainly plenty of real construction tragedies out there you can focus on……
If this is the Robert Lepage I interviewed on the Building Performance Podcast, you yourself stated you don’t recommend foaming both walls and roof:
th-cam.com/video/QIOpdSFx7p4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ROg28Hc9osx3rUM1
I do agree that SPF manufacturers may be quite aware of these installer issues, but the people I’m arguing against in this ONE video in our entire catalogue are the marketing and sales teams, who absolutely do often pretend it is a perfect product.
Also, I have clients across the continent who have had terrible experiences with foam installs that had to be scraped back out. Lawsuit settlements regularly include an NDA, which may be why a lot of the stories have not become public knowledge.
As I state at the very top of the vid, there ARE reasons to consider and use it, but it should be one choice among many, and not a given.
More Crap! Every insulation has it's drawbacks. I've been in insulation since 1966.
Great video. I’m looking to insulate an existing metal building and want to avoid spray foam/ rigid foam. I was thinking of putting up a reflective barrier, rockwool,and intello plus. Would this work or just trap moisture between the reflective barrier and intello? Maybe you could do a video about this? I’ve searched for advice online/ youtube and there seems to be a need.
What is the climate like in this location? Moisture and vapor barriers can be pretty different depending on context in some cases.
@@markallen6433 Thanks Mark, I’m in climate zone 3. 100 degree summers, 50 degree winters. Low humidity year round. One video that shows how they insulated their metal building with rigid foam has over a million views so I know there are others that are interested in this subject.