Let's not forget that many witnessed the miracles, signs, and works Jesus did among the people, yet did not believe in Him. It's not an issue of evidence, but an issue of the heart!
Opening lines of this video are hilarious out of context. Lol "I'm gonna die.... and we do a very good job of that at University of Arizona, don't we?"
At some point, these students who demand proof of God (whom they already know exists-Romans 1) need to be asked "What sin is it that you love so much that you are unwilling to give it up?" At some point, enough is enough with the cerebral approach, and we must aim for the heart. I really enjoy these videos. You do excellent work.
That kid says why dosent God heal amputees, the first point to make is that God may have healed amputees in some remote village somewhere, and only that community of people know about it. We have never set out to look for evidence of God healing amputees now have we? The second point to make is that the scripture records that Jesus did heal an amputee, the soldier's ear that was cut off, Luke 22:51 records that Jesus put the ear back! The third point is that if someone does not want to believe in God, healing amputees won't make them believe! The Pharisees and Sadducees saw Jesus do miracle after miracle and still didnt believe!!
The point this young man is trying to make and his request is impossible. He wants second hand non believer accounts of Christs resurrection in order to solidify his belief in Christ. The only problem is that if those non believers had seen Christ risen then they wouldn't be non believers. So there is no way to have a eye witness account to the ressurrection that didn't have faith in Christ.
@jeffreyr.gilbertjr.1321we have to be careful dismissing Gods children due to their arrogance, smugness, or callousness. If we made it right for us to do that, we would be no better than the Pharisees.
This man redefines words to suit his argument. Cliffe is locked into his position and can't hear anything contradictory. We can't know if there was a mind beyond humans, anything else is just an empty assertion. Cliffe has to be truthful about these 5000 copies and you should study for yourself.
Basically they want a Polaroid or camcorder recording of each day of Jesus life. Okay. Would also be nice for them if Jesus popped up every now and then like Hey guys don't forget about me....why don't they just slink away in a gap in the crowd when they realise that their point is moot. Slink away and read up on the evidence
the problem is their logical standards are unrealistic, like you are going to be able to falsify the resurrection in a lab. Double standards with historical analysis.
The kid will only believe if Jesus had only healed amputees. He's saying that healing an amputee is better than bringing back a person (Lazarus) to life, after being dead for at least 3 days, as proof of his divinity and will ultimately bring him to faith.
@ 23:55 Cliffe said that "Jesus put the body and soul back together ", but what I think he meant to say is that Jesus put the spirit (breath of life) back to the body and the soul lived again.
People don't even understand that 'The Bible' is a label for the simple assortment of historical texts regarding Jesus Christ...what is the world coming to....
The whole story? Are you saying Jesus wasn't a real person? Are you saying he was never crucified and that people never witnessed his crucifixion? Are you saying that the disciples hallucinated when they claimed to have seen the risen Jesus? Are you saying that the Corinthian creed that Paul cited about Jesus' life, death, and resurrection were never dated back to time of when the events would have took place? re you saying tat all that evidence doesn't give merit to Jesus' reserrecion beng a true historical event?
These people don’t realize the gospels are all independent when they wrote about Jesus there was no such thing as a Bible. We put it all together to make it convenient for us to put everything in a one book mark is Independent document. Luke is an independent document is an independent documentis an independent document. There are third-party documents right there.
It's not the proof that matters to them. Even if God did perform miracles today, they wouldn't believe, because they choose not to. There's a lot of examples of such ppl in the bible, who witnessed the power of God (split of red sea, the plaques, God's presence during war, etc), still, their hearts already determined not to accept. This is the real issue. Not proof, definitely no. And guess what, one who actually sincere in pursuing truth, won't cut ppl off all the time during ppls sharing. So, I guess like Jesus said, we can know a person by their fruit.
Ans athiests say they don't have belief dogma. Ive heard everything this student said at least 25 times. Nothing new. Funny that some atheists say there is evidence for a historic jesus but some dont. Is there evidence or not.
How does he go from hundreds of years after Jesus and then after cliff says really he goes straight to 50years So dishonest Why bother steeping up to speak if you're just going to be dishonest
Anything is possible except the living God... We are a wicked and perverse generation, requiring signs and wonders but turning away from the millions who claim to know Him.
Atheism or non-belief does not make you bad not searching out that's why they believe in God or don't believe in God one must hold position because they searched out not only with their heart but they searched the scriptures the search history the search wherever they can find the evidence and then they weigh the evidence and they see for themselves what it means now God will also speak some people directly I don't mean sister scripture but directly but that's not common so do your research before you make a decision finally just to say that's it I'm an atheist or that's it I'm this with that Muslim whatever do your research and pray and if you're an atheist and you don't pray think about it please.
That guy was simply being way too scrutinizing oh, I'm sure he doesn't scrutinize his everyday life nowhere near as much as he goes after Christianity he is clearly a hypocrite and he has a distinct towards Christianity. Also he destroyed all of human history with his ridiculous scrutiny
God has spoken through his son Jesus Christ regarding his will. Jesus has validated the old testament as he spoke about the creation of the male and female and also the major old testament characters like Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon and queen of Sheba. The world was formed through Jesus Christ. Sin has deformed us but Jesus came to transform the body, soul, and the spirit and our twisted minds too. see www.gotquestions.org
All you have is eye witness testimony and archeology for history. If Jesus Christ is a myth then so is Julius Caesar, George Washington, Alexander the Great, etc. but we take for granted they actually lived. So why can’t we accept that Jesus Christ lived, died and resurrected? Idolatry is why we can’t humble ourselves before Jesus Christ, we can’t praise God. Idolatry: we worship ourselves, money, power, temporal things.
crazy how insecure and scared atheists become when they dont have a computer in front of them lol. Aquinas believed: Eternal law is the decree of God that governs all creation. Natural law is the human "participation" in the eternal law and is discovered by reason.
Cliffe gets very angry with people who disagree with him. We do ask for signs of love or friendship from people in our lives. Stick to students Cliffy.
I’ve watched all 500 videos , and after every single debate he shakes their hand and says “thanks for raising that issue”. “Very angry” and passion are two different things. You should go back and actually watch videos before making false claims Darnell Perkins 💀
The unbelievable hypocrisy of Cliffe knechtle! "You are playing a manipulative game here that is dangerous" - can you hear yourself, Cliffe? Sorry but who's being manipulative? And who's behaving so selfishly and disengenuously that it's a danger to young minds? You are sir, and you should stop. It's sickening, as a teacher myself, to watch and listen to your posing and your affected overpronouncing and creepy attempts to be down-with-the-kids and their chat. Your ad hominem attacks on these vulnerable young people are despicable and so far from good practice when dealing with young people that i would have you thrown off campus. How dare you speak to young impressionable students like this. You're losing the argument so clearly here 18.25 - 18.30 just look at Cliffe struggling for a pre-learned piece of preaching that he can make fit this difficult situation that he's lost grip of. And when he can't find one, true to form, he starts to get aggressive and insulting and posing ridiculous analogies that are so offensive and so desperate and irrelevant that he has to raise his voice and speak threateningly over any attempt by the student to respond, bullying his way through the last segment of the film to try and make it close with him looking like he's on top. Well, you failed Cliffe! You looked and sounded pathetic and cornered by a smarter mind than yours - and still just a student too. It's shameful the way you speak to these young people and downright unchristian and godless the way you seem to delight in trying to humiliate them or make them feel stupid. You even get dangerously close to telling them that they might as well commit suicide because if they're atheists their life is meaningless and their hopes and ambitions are meaningless and they can only be honest if they're living a life of misery and despair. Utter rubbish! Bad reasoning, fallacious and really disturbing to watch. Jesus would never have spoken to anyone so disrespectfully nor insulted people like this, especially not the young, hopeful and impressionable folk that you like to practise on. Shame on you. You're right about one thing - you're not a good person and it shows in the way you disregard the wellbeing, the safety and the feelings of young people. Shame on you and your selfish, creepy agenda.
I personally think you're assigning a completely different context to situations and arguments. Pointing out an inconsistency in atheism is not equal to disregarding them as human beings, is inviting them to rethink their positioning about the matter. I also think he's not losing the argument at 18:25-18:30 simply because the student was asking him for something pretty much impossible to provide; a third party source who saw Jesus rise from the dead and that believed in His claims. Asking for this type of sources is impossible because the position he starts off with is that is the Bible a premade book instead of a recollection of different manuscripts made centuries after. Each one of these manuscripts would meet the criteria he's asking for; So therefore, if another reliable source with and eye-witness that believed in Jesus claims, saw him die and rise from the dead existed it would be included in the Bible by now. But the student is deciding to disregard all of the evidence because of a prior bias towards the Bible. I would also like to ask you, at what point did you consider Cliffe was personally attacking the student? I agree he got upset because of the double standard the student had, but I do not agree he attacked him. Sorry if something is hard to understand, English is not my first language. Thank you in advance!
@victorgrana2 The student totally annihilated Clifee . Beat him at his own game. God should of done a better job on convincing us that Jesus resurrected for us to believe. And I don't see your god doing thing amazing in this world today that could point to him!
@@victorgrana2 Sorry I only just saw your reply so I apologise if you're no longer interested in reading this. It's quite long too. I hope you do read it. Your first point is a strawman. I didn't say that. Read what I actually said. You then say he's inviting them to rethink. No he's not inviting at all, he's demanding and preaching. If he was interested in their point of view he would listen to it and respond to their points rather than deflecting or reframing the argument with irrelevant rambling and strawmanning their arguments so that he can preach his learned pieces and argue against the strawman he has created. He creates strawmen from their arguments all the time - "what I hear you saying is ..." and then says something that totally misrepresents what they ACTUALLY said! This is the go-to style for Cliffe; he has learned a great many set pieces that he has to try to lever into his debates, but they don't fit very often because they are learned and he cannot improvise or divert from them because he doesn't have the skills to do that. He's either repeating a set piece of preaching or he's floundering and stumped. Just like here - the student tries several times to insist that he 'wasn't saying that', and Cliffe knows he wasn't saying that, but doesn't have an answer to what he actually said, so instead he just picks his most relevant set piece and then won't shut up no matter how irrelevant it is or how much the student protests that he DID NOT SAY THAT! He most definitely IS losing the argument at 18:25. Sorry, but Cliffe asked him what evidence would he require and he answered clearly that a third party account of the resurrection from anywhere other than the bible would be a good start. Please note the student DID NOT SAY that this was the only evidence he'd need but it was one example he gave. Cliffe then goes uncharacteristically quiet for some time because he knows there is no such evidence. He then rambles about the Jews writing about Jesus being a false prophet and worker of magic and the student correctly points out that this is Cliffe just contradicting his own point. Cliffe protests 'no it's not' and the student asks 'how so?' Another long silence while Cliffe searches for a learned piece he can insert here. But he has nothing - he just starts waffling about the Koran and other holy books as if to say 'stop beating up on my religion- what about these?' It's puerile and desperate. You make a fallacious point in saying that the student's demand is impossible because if a third party had witnessed the resurrection, then it would be included in the bible by now. Well maybe it would, but it would also exist outside of the bible, wouldn't it? And any other account that ended up in the bible would also exist in another historical form - but there are NONE and Cliffe knows that. The accounts of miracles or resurrection exist only in the bible, which is one of the most unreliable books in the world and the most disputed. The gospel accounts of the resurrection differ and contradict each other too - so even the biblical accounts are not in agreement. Your last point about where Cliffe is attacking the student should be obvious especially to anyone who is serious about education and the welfare of young minds. How dare you suggest that Cliffe is entitled to get annoyed with a student, who's campus Cliffe is a visitor on, because the student had the audacity to disagree with him. The student at no point displayed a double standard and was coherent and polite throughout (I'm talking about the last student in the video). Cliffe had no answer for him and no argument against his logic and that's why he got annoyed. Count how many times Cliffe is sarcastic - the lowest form of demeaning wit. Look at the expressions he uses like : 'oh really?' (Sarcastic) 'You're lost' (belittling, demeaning) 'You made the statement; now give it to me!' (Bullying, aggressive) 'That's an intellectually dishonest path you're going down'. (Insulting, accusing him of lying, patronising). 'That's a manipulative game you're playing'. (Gaslighting, Insulting, calling him dishonest and deliberately devious and calculating). He also directly compares the student's standpoint with someone who demands sex from his girlfriend to prove that she loves him. It is a gross and irrelevant comparison that is designed to make the young man feel belittled and that he's no better than a man who demands sex from a woman. Utterly disgusting way to try to communicate with a young enquiring mind. Cliffe is not a teacher in any way shape or form. He's a jumped up preacher who's got a product to sell and makes his living from this and many other despicable displays of proselytising. I'm guessing you don't work with young people? I do, and if I were to call students liars and dishonest and treat their very respectfully expressed opinions in a sarcastic and dismissive way, calling them lost, comparing them with misogynistic men, moving quickly towards them with aggressive hand gestures, speaking over them - I would lose my job and quite rightly too. I hope you have a good day and I wish you all the best. But I wish most of all that you see through Cliffe's nonsense and fallacious reasoning. He's really not a very smart guy
Hello! Hope you're doing good and that you're having a good day. I rewatched the video and reread your original comment because I did not remembered any of it at all. I apologize for misrepresenting what you wanted to say previously, I can understand your frustration about the way Cliffe talked with students, especially if you're a teacher. About my second point, my reasoning was based on how all the books in the Bible are based on historical findings that have been collected all into one book, so therefore, if another account surfaced it would probably be included into the Bible. Sadly, I don't have enough theological or historical knowledge to debate this, and I think it was foolish from my part trying to do so. About my last question, I was genuine curious about your perspective and exactly what you considered problematic and unnecessary, and after reading your reasoning I think it's more than valid and understandable. I do not work with young people since I'm a student myself, hopefully you understand that my questioning and perspective came from a point of trying to be open minded rather than winning the argument. Have a great week, and I wish you all the best as well! :)
@@victorgrana2 Hi, thanks for your very polite and thoughtful reply. By the way, since English is your second language I can tell you that you're doing pretty well. I teach EFL - English as a foreign language in the UK. You're making a few minor mistakes, but you are communicating very effectively and that is the purpose of language. Enjoy your student days - it's a long long time since I was a student and I still miss it. Best wishes. 👌
Let's not forget that many witnessed the miracles, signs, and works Jesus did among the people, yet did not believe in Him. It's not an issue of evidence, but an issue of the heart!
Opening lines of this video are hilarious out of context. Lol
"I'm gonna die.... and we do a very good job of that at University of Arizona, don't we?"
😂
At some point, these students who demand proof of God (whom they already know exists-Romans 1) need to be asked "What sin is it that you love so much that you are unwilling to give it up?" At some point, enough is enough with the cerebral approach, and we must aim for the heart.
I really enjoy these videos. You do excellent work.
That kid says why dosent God heal amputees, the first point to make is that God may have healed amputees in some remote village somewhere, and only that community of people know about it. We have never set out to look for evidence of God healing amputees now have we? The second point to make is that the scripture records that Jesus did heal an amputee, the soldier's ear that was cut off, Luke 22:51 records that Jesus put the ear back! The third point is that if someone does not want to believe in God, healing amputees won't make them believe! The Pharisees and Sadducees saw Jesus do miracle after miracle and still didnt believe!!
"Philosophy" doesn't decide anything: Philosophy is a field of study, not a person.
Only persons can make decisions.
Cliffe never cease to amaze me!
The point this young man is trying to make and his request is impossible. He wants second hand non believer accounts of Christs resurrection in order to solidify his belief in Christ. The only problem is that if those non believers had seen Christ risen then they wouldn't be non believers. So there is no way to have a eye witness account to the ressurrection that didn't have faith in Christ.
***** excelent point
***** Very well put dude, nice :)
Yeah, but in order to understand that fact he would need to use clear logical thinking.
Romans 1:21 and 22
Daniel W Exactly what I was thinking.
@jeffreyr.gilbertjr.1321we have to be careful dismissing Gods children due to their arrogance, smugness, or callousness. If we made it right for us to do that, we would be no better than the Pharisees.
As I look at old videos from Cliffe, I always wonder if any of these college kids came to Christ these last 10-12 years
why would they? Christ is a title not a name.
I love the theme song it makes it so wholesome 🙂
I believe the cactus in the background is a message to all atheists, clever move Cliffe.
This man redefines words to suit his argument. Cliffe is locked into his position and can't hear anything contradictory. We can't know if there was a mind beyond humans, anything else is just an empty assertion. Cliffe has to be truthful about these 5000 copies and you should study for yourself.
Wow Cliffe you really nailed that guy good! These haughty Atheist types need to be exposed, they're looking for God like burglars looking for cops.
Basically they want a Polaroid or camcorder recording of each day of Jesus life. Okay. Would also be nice for them if Jesus popped up every now and then like Hey guys don't forget about me....why don't they just slink away in a gap in the crowd when they realise that their point is moot. Slink away and read up on the evidence
Very good video Cliffe
Cliffe is the man and he keeps getting better. HAHA
Nice one Cliffe!
The young sceptic is a prime example of a dispiser of the light.
Well, more specifically the hyper-skeptic
the problem is their logical standards are unrealistic, like you are going to be able to falsify the resurrection in a lab. Double standards with historical analysis.
The kid will only believe if Jesus had only healed amputees. He's saying that healing an amputee is better than bringing back a person (Lazarus) to life, after being dead for at least 3 days, as proof of his divinity and will ultimately bring him to faith.
@ 23:55 Cliffe said that "Jesus put the body and soul back together ", but what I think he meant to say is that Jesus put the spirit (breath of life) back to the body and the soul lived again.
I went to a caholic school that taight they were written hundreds of years later. Dissapointing
Nobody saw Jesus rise from the dead, they saw him after :)
I'm always amazed when people want sources outside believers for the resurrection. If they didn't believe it, WHY WOULD THEY WRITE ABOUT IT!?
Y’all got any more pixels?
Nice
People don't even understand that 'The Bible' is a label for the simple assortment of historical texts regarding Jesus Christ...what is the world coming to....
+yarpen800
Very false my friend. No serious scholar of the New Testament said that the accounts of Jesus are legend. They are historical documents.
The whole story? Are you saying Jesus wasn't a real person? Are you saying he was never crucified and that people never witnessed his crucifixion? Are you saying that the disciples hallucinated when they claimed to have seen the risen Jesus? Are you saying that the Corinthian creed that Paul cited about Jesus' life, death, and resurrection were never dated back to time of when the events would have took place? re you saying tat all that evidence doesn't give merit to Jesus' reserrecion beng a true historical event?
+yarpen800 So nobody ever saw Jesus?
+yarpen800 Was Jesus a real historical figure?
+yarpen800 Oh so your problem is NOT with whether there are eyewitness accounts. Your problem is with miracles, correct?
👍👍👍
These people don’t realize the gospels are all independent when they wrote about Jesus there was no such thing as a Bible. We put it all together to make it convenient for us to put everything in a one book mark is Independent document. Luke is an independent document is an independent documentis an independent document. There are third-party documents right there.
A shame how many atheists need a god who acts as their own personal genie before they can believe..
It's not the proof that matters to them. Even if God did perform miracles today, they wouldn't believe, because they choose not to. There's a lot of examples of such ppl in the bible, who witnessed the power of God (split of red sea, the plaques, God's presence during war, etc), still, their hearts already determined not to accept. This is the real issue. Not proof, definitely no. And guess what, one who actually sincere in pursuing truth, won't cut ppl off all the time during ppls sharing. So, I guess like Jesus said, we can know a person by their fruit.
Ans athiests say they don't have belief dogma. Ive heard everything this student said at least 25 times. Nothing new. Funny that some atheists say there is evidence for a historic jesus but some dont. Is there evidence or not.
5:54 Exactly!! Communism is an utopia. Thank you for saying that young communist kid.
How does he go from hundreds of years after Jesus and then after cliff says really he goes straight to 50years
So dishonest
Why bother steeping up to speak if you're just going to be dishonest
Anything is possible except the living God... We are a wicked and perverse generation, requiring signs and wonders but turning away from the millions who claim to know Him.
14
Woah, that young atheist is creepy as hell
James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Because one day you answer to Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.
I AM THE TRUTH THE WAY AND THE LIFE
NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME
If there was another genuine first hand account of Jesus rising from the dead that we had, it would be in the bible.
This guy totally annihilated cliff. It shouldn't be ao hard for a god to prove himself in an extra ordinary way.
Jesus performed many miracles and many still don't believe. If he just did one more, you'll just come up with even more excuses why you don't believe.
People still do miracles today and their not godl
Atheism or non-belief does not make you bad not searching out that's why they believe in God or don't believe in God one must hold position because they searched out not only with their heart but they searched the scriptures the search history the search wherever they can find the evidence and then they weigh the evidence and they see for themselves what it means now God will also speak some people directly I don't mean sister scripture but directly but that's not common so do your research before you make a decision finally just to say that's it I'm an atheist or that's it I'm this with that Muslim whatever do your research and pray and if you're an atheist and you don't pray think about it please.
When Cliffe the Clown speaks he keeps looking to the side ....almost as if he's talking to an imaginary friend ...........mmmmmmmm !
What's with the racist remark about white South African's, Pastor Cliffe?
Are you trying to say there was never any racism in south africa?
He is using it as an example in his debate, stop being so narrow minded.
That guy was simply being way too scrutinizing oh, I'm sure he doesn't scrutinize his everyday life nowhere near as much as he goes after Christianity he is clearly a hypocrite and he has a distinct towards Christianity. Also he destroyed all of human history with his ridiculous scrutiny
God has spoken through his son Jesus Christ regarding his will. Jesus has validated the old testament as he spoke about the creation of the male and female and also the major old testament characters like Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon and queen of Sheba. The world was formed through Jesus Christ. Sin has deformed us but Jesus came to transform the body, soul, and the spirit and our twisted minds too. see www.gotquestions.org
All you have is eye witness testimony and archeology for history. If Jesus Christ is a myth then so is Julius Caesar, George Washington, Alexander the Great, etc. but we take for granted they actually lived. So why can’t we accept that Jesus Christ lived, died and resurrected? Idolatry is why we can’t humble ourselves before Jesus Christ, we can’t praise God. Idolatry: we worship ourselves, money, power, temporal things.
crazy how insecure and scared atheists become when they dont have a computer in front of them lol. Aquinas believed: Eternal law is the decree of God that governs all creation. Natural law is the human "participation" in the eternal law and is discovered by reason.
Cliffe gets very angry with people who disagree with him. We do ask for signs of love or friendship from people in our lives. Stick to students Cliffy.
I’ve watched all 500 videos , and after every single debate he shakes their hand and says “thanks for raising that issue”. “Very angry” and passion are two different things. You should go back and actually watch videos before making false claims Darnell Perkins 💀
Cliffe gets angry at students
The unbelievable hypocrisy of Cliffe knechtle! "You are playing a manipulative game here that is dangerous" - can you hear yourself, Cliffe? Sorry but who's being manipulative? And who's behaving so selfishly and disengenuously that it's a danger to young minds? You are sir, and you should stop. It's sickening, as a teacher myself, to watch and listen to your posing and your affected overpronouncing and creepy attempts to be down-with-the-kids and their chat. Your ad hominem attacks on these vulnerable young people are despicable and so far from good practice when dealing with young people that i would have you thrown off campus. How dare you speak to young impressionable students like this. You're losing the argument so clearly here 18.25 - 18.30 just look at Cliffe struggling for a pre-learned piece of preaching that he can make fit this difficult situation that he's lost grip of. And when he can't find one, true to form, he starts to get aggressive and insulting and posing ridiculous analogies that are so offensive and so desperate and irrelevant that he has to raise his voice and speak threateningly over any attempt by the student to respond, bullying his way through the last segment of the film to try and make it close with him looking like he's on top. Well, you failed Cliffe! You looked and sounded pathetic and cornered by a smarter mind than yours - and still just a student too.
It's shameful the way you speak to these young people and downright unchristian and godless the way you seem to delight in trying to humiliate them or make them feel stupid. You even get dangerously close to telling them that they might as well commit suicide because if they're atheists their life is meaningless and their hopes and ambitions are meaningless and they can only be honest if they're living a life of misery and despair. Utter rubbish! Bad reasoning, fallacious and really disturbing to watch. Jesus would never have spoken to anyone so disrespectfully nor insulted people like this, especially not the young, hopeful and impressionable folk that you like to practise on. Shame on you. You're right about one thing - you're not a good person and it shows in the way you disregard the wellbeing, the safety and the feelings of young people. Shame on you and your selfish, creepy agenda.
I personally think you're assigning a completely different context to situations and arguments. Pointing out an inconsistency in atheism is not equal to disregarding them as human beings, is inviting them to rethink their positioning about the matter.
I also think he's not losing the argument at 18:25-18:30 simply because the student was asking him for something pretty much impossible to provide; a third party source who saw Jesus rise from the dead and that believed in His claims. Asking for this type of sources is impossible because the position he starts off with is that is the Bible a premade book instead of a recollection of different manuscripts made centuries after. Each one of these manuscripts would meet the criteria he's asking for; So therefore, if another reliable source with and eye-witness that believed in Jesus claims, saw him die and rise from the dead existed it would be included in the Bible by now. But the student is deciding to disregard all of the evidence because of a prior bias towards the Bible.
I would also like to ask you, at what point did you consider Cliffe was personally attacking the student?
I agree he got upset because of the double standard the student had, but I do not agree he attacked him.
Sorry if something is hard to understand, English is not my first language. Thank you in advance!
@victorgrana2 The student totally annihilated Clifee . Beat him at his own game. God should of done a better job on convincing us that Jesus resurrected for us to believe. And I don't see your god doing thing amazing in this world today that could point to him!
@@victorgrana2 Sorry I only just saw your reply so I apologise if you're no longer interested in reading this. It's quite long too. I hope you do read it.
Your first point is a strawman. I didn't say that. Read what I actually said.
You then say he's inviting them to rethink. No he's not inviting at all, he's demanding and preaching. If he was interested in their point of view he would listen to it and respond to their points rather than deflecting or reframing the argument with irrelevant rambling and strawmanning their arguments so that he can preach his learned pieces and argue against the strawman he has created. He creates strawmen from their arguments all the time - "what I hear you saying is ..." and then says something that totally misrepresents what they ACTUALLY said!
This is the go-to style for Cliffe; he has learned a great many set pieces that he has to try to lever into his debates, but they don't fit very often because they are learned and he cannot improvise or divert from them because he doesn't have the skills to do that. He's either repeating a set piece of preaching or he's floundering and stumped. Just like here - the student tries several times to insist that he 'wasn't saying that', and Cliffe knows he wasn't saying that, but doesn't have an answer to what he actually said, so instead he just picks his most relevant set piece and then won't shut up no matter how irrelevant it is or how much the student protests that he DID NOT SAY THAT!
He most definitely IS losing the argument at 18:25. Sorry, but Cliffe asked him what evidence would he require and he answered clearly that a third party account of the resurrection from anywhere other than the bible would be a good start. Please note the student DID NOT SAY that this was the only evidence he'd need but it was one example he gave. Cliffe then goes uncharacteristically quiet for some time because he knows there is no such evidence. He then rambles about the Jews writing about Jesus being a false prophet and worker of magic and the student correctly points out that this is Cliffe just contradicting his own point. Cliffe protests 'no it's not' and the student asks 'how so?' Another long silence while Cliffe searches for a learned piece he can insert here. But he has nothing - he just starts waffling about the Koran and other holy books as if to say 'stop beating up on my religion- what about these?' It's puerile and desperate.
You make a fallacious point in saying that the student's demand is impossible because if a third party had witnessed the resurrection, then it would be included in the bible by now. Well maybe it would, but it would also exist outside of the bible, wouldn't it? And any other account that ended up in the bible would also exist in another historical form - but there are NONE and Cliffe knows that. The accounts of miracles or resurrection exist only in the bible, which is one of the most unreliable books in the world and the most disputed. The gospel accounts of the resurrection differ and contradict each other too - so even the biblical accounts are not in agreement.
Your last point about where Cliffe is attacking the student should be obvious especially to anyone who is serious about education and the welfare of young minds. How dare you suggest that Cliffe is entitled to get annoyed with a student, who's campus Cliffe is a visitor on, because the student had the audacity to disagree with him. The student at no point displayed a double standard and was coherent and polite throughout (I'm talking about the last student in the video). Cliffe had no answer for him and no argument against his logic and that's why he got annoyed. Count how many times Cliffe is sarcastic - the lowest form of demeaning wit. Look at the expressions he uses like :
'oh really?' (Sarcastic)
'You're lost' (belittling, demeaning)
'You made the statement; now give it to me!' (Bullying, aggressive)
'That's an intellectually dishonest path you're going down'. (Insulting, accusing him of lying, patronising).
'That's a manipulative game you're playing'. (Gaslighting, Insulting, calling him dishonest and deliberately devious and calculating).
He also directly compares the student's standpoint with someone who demands sex from his girlfriend to prove that she loves him. It is a gross and irrelevant comparison that is designed to make the young man feel belittled and that he's no better than a man who demands sex from a woman. Utterly disgusting way to try to communicate with a young enquiring mind. Cliffe is not a teacher in any way shape or form. He's a jumped up preacher who's got a product to sell and makes his living from this and many other despicable displays of proselytising.
I'm guessing you don't work with young people? I do, and if I were to call students liars and dishonest and treat their very respectfully expressed opinions in a sarcastic and dismissive way, calling them lost, comparing them with misogynistic men, moving quickly towards them with aggressive hand gestures, speaking over them - I would lose my job and quite rightly too.
I hope you have a good day and I wish you all the best. But I wish most of all that you see through Cliffe's nonsense and fallacious reasoning. He's really not a very smart guy
Hello! Hope you're doing good and that you're having a good day.
I rewatched the video and reread your original comment because I did not remembered any of it at all.
I apologize for misrepresenting what you wanted to say previously, I can understand your frustration about the way Cliffe talked with students, especially if you're a teacher.
About my second point, my reasoning was based on how all the books in the Bible are based on historical findings that have been collected all into one book, so therefore, if another account surfaced it would probably be included into the Bible. Sadly, I don't have enough theological or historical knowledge to debate this, and I think it was foolish from my part trying to do so.
About my last question, I was genuine curious about your perspective and exactly what you considered problematic and unnecessary, and after reading your reasoning I think it's more than valid and understandable.
I do not work with young people since I'm a student myself, hopefully you understand that my questioning and perspective came from a point of trying to be open minded rather than winning the argument.
Have a great week, and I wish you all the best as well! :)
@@victorgrana2 Hi, thanks for your very polite and thoughtful reply.
By the way, since English is your second language I can tell you that you're doing pretty well. I teach EFL - English as a foreign language in the UK.
You're making a few minor mistakes, but you are communicating very effectively and that is the purpose of language.
Enjoy your student days - it's a long long time since I was a student and I still miss it.
Best wishes. 👌