Cathedral Ceilings, Attics & Roofs with Spray Foam Insulation | 3 of 4
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Part 3 of 4 we will cover: roof coverings, vapor drive, underlays / membranes, insulated Zip sheathing, cubic footage of conditioned air, water damage and shingle changes, duct work and mechanical equipment in the attic, frost lines on the roof.
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Yep, my plan is post-frame, full Zip walls and roof with attached modular overhang rather than rafter-tail overhangs, then standing seam roof, 2-3in closed cell, and probably back that up with 6in open cell. I'll never have to replace the roof in the rest of my lifetime (hopefully). The only tricky bit is wiring the PV panels, since I want to put the micro-inverters inside the conditioned envelope.
Ok, thanks for watching.
This video series deserves 1000 times more views. Just wanted to say thank you for doing so much for so few of us! And may the algorithm be with you.
Thank you for the kind words.
Love it kay the algorithm be with you. And it's a great series, I watched a few twice already. It's my go to videos for ride home from work lol.
On a note, you mentioned spraying directly to steel on the underside of the roof. I had a local builder once tell me they replaced all the steel on a building that had been hailed out and was fully spray foamed. What he said was, it wasn’t that bad. They took the screws out, bent the corner up, grabbed onto it with a vice grips and peeled the steel panel right off. The foam stayed in place. Then set a new panel with the same ribs directly over.
Fantastic video series. I’m a contractor and have a question based on video 3 @ about 29:30. You mentioned sound control and customers installing rockwool in the ceiling above the bedrooms for sound control. Does this not have an adverse effect on conditioning the attic space? I ask this as I have just completed a 2300 ft addition on my own home. I have built the addition with zip system on the roof and walls, air sealed everything well, and insulated the exterior walls/roof with closed cell. Water and ice layer on top of the foam for redundancy and a rain screen on top of that to vent the underside of the metal roof should any water get in it can dry. Two questions for you.
1) Since I am insulated and air sealed on the outside. I was unsure whether or not I would spray foam inside or just use a spray and batt (rockwool) on the inside to satisfy the rest of the R values. Do you have an opinion on this for both the roof deck and walls?
2) I will use rockwool in walls for sound proofing between rooms, but thought that anything above the sheet rock would impede that “Conditioned Envelope” Sorry so long winded, and thank you for a lot of great information!
I’m building an addition with cathedral ceilings. My inspector is telling me that my shingles will bake and only last 5 yrs min (certainteed landmark architectural) if I don’t vent my attic. I only have 2x8 rafters so closed cell is really my only option. My trade was roofing for 15 yrs so venting is engrained in my being. Do you think the shingle life will be shortened at all with spraying the roof deck directly. I do think certainteed has a higher percentage of asphalt than some other fiberglass/asphalt architectural shingles
I have a specific video on shingle life and SPF. It is in the playlist for unvented roofs, all your concerns are addressed in that video with studies to back it up.
I am buying a farm with a beautiful 30x40 hay shed and I was concerned that I had to rip up my metal roof the put some sort of roof underlay. I couldn't be happier how comprehensive you are with answering all the questions I had in mind.
Good to hear.
We reroof in Texas every 3-7 years due to hail. I have replaced 3 ‘lifetime” roofs LoL (metal shingles) and now have Divinci Plastic hail resistant roof with radiant barrier and 4 inch poly iso under the shingles
What about flash & batt on the ceiling to R50? 1.5 of CC. In Minnesota
THANK YOU
I have recently returned to the industry after a forced retirement due to physical disability issues
Having you as a resource in order to educate the owners of my company has made my life so much easier
Your term of faker properly describes my predecessor and thus the mess that I’ve been given to rectify
I only wish I had the ability to reach out to you directly as my BASF certification has expired in 2007 so I am at times overwhelmed with the progressions in the industry
🙏 please be aware you are appreciated
G.C. Ontario
Thanks for watching, glad to help:
Wait until you see what we are building. It will transform the industry so hang on tight!
I curious about spraying direct to a metal roof deck with no sheathing. I’m in Saskatchewan. Does the thermal expansion and contraction of the metal cause any issues with de-lamination of the foam? Does the foam flex with the movement? Is this scenario something you would recommend in a residential application?
No de-lamination issues. The metal cannot expand excessively once the foam is installed. This is a good thing.
The building cannot move more than the foam. SPF will move 4-5% which, if your building moves that much is a structural failure.
So I'm building a pole barn and after watching your videos and some research I've decided to go full foam. I told the company I wanted no vents and they looked at me like I had 3 heads. I guess here in Pennsylvania it's not popular.
Leading the way.... good for you.
I have always been looked at like I have 3 heads...
So.... I suppose you indirectly answered my question about putting a vapor "port" at the ridge. 😉
Pretty much.
Another knock outa the park👍👍👍👍
How would you transition from the roof to an ICF wall? I know there can be a wood top plate but I've also seen truss attachments that imbed into the concrete which would leave the top of the concrete exposed. I'm just curious if you/one would spray to the outside foam, leaving the top of the concrete open, or cover the whole top of the wall.
We totally cover the concrete until we get to the inside EPS.
I am wanting to spray foam the roof deck of my garage, it is unvented. I am not worried about outside moisture whatsoever as you covered that very well in these videos. I am however worried about humidity and moisture inside the garage causing issues. Do you have any input on how to prevent that? Maybe you covered it and I might’ve missed it?
Put in a ventilation fan to vent the space as you see fit.
I have never found it to be an issue..
Two kinds of oats when you have a mule, those the mule eats and those the mule XXXXs Bob Jarrard
Now I understand what you are saying... took me a bit.
Thankyou Mike for elaborating on the roof engineering and having the roof call out on the stamped print .👍
You are welcome.
Incredible videos - I could only add that I would have been interested to see an example AC Attic Room in the Cathedral configuration that you recommend here. These videos are real eye openers; a tour of the a/c, air exchangers, fans, and properly-sized air systems would be interesting too. I've seen post-construction with open vents suspended below the ceiling - and that looked good. How does that compare to in roof systems?
1. We not do those where I am. In 16 years we have had 1 home with HVAC inside the attic and I have no pics for it.
2. I try to keep the focus primarily on the SPF and the details of how and why it is sprayed. I don't get out of my lane too often.
@@SprayJones I think I misunderstood you in the video. I thought you were recommending an in-attic A/C setup, which is why I was curious to see it. NP - Thanks !
I'm in North Iowa and we are opening up and vaulting a 26x26 area in our house and we have one contractor saying we need closed cell and another saying we need open cell due to condensation and letting the roof breathe. What are your thought on this or please direct me to whatever video you may discuss this. Info- 2x6 rafters currently with a 4/12 and blown in insulation with ridge vent and minimal soffit venting. Most of the house will remain blown in once we vault the specific area. Also we plan to put drywall directly on rafters in the vaulting process. Thank you!
Moving along your 4 part series as we binge watch to prep for an attic cathedral renovation and then an extension, gambrel roof 2.5 story cathedral loft. Your work is priceless! Thank you so much for taking the initiative....and Canadian context included! 💯👍🇨🇦🍁
Thank you so much for this series. I’m doing closed cell on my cathedral/scissor truss ceiling and feel much better about no vents.
Mike... i put a attic door that has weather stripping for my walk up attic... the temps at the hottest days of summer or coldest days in winter is almost identical to.my second floor.
Not ducting or air movement in my attic and no issues.
I am going to be building duplex townhouse style two families if you have any tips.
Im not going to put so much foam any more... i used to put 10 inches in rafters but im getting what you are saying.
Im hoping to try 2 inch zip on roof with 4 inches in rafters... without an extra layer of sheathing (i think the foam is going to help give me the snow load etc)
My only hvac issues are large tile shower overwhelms erv in short term... secondly... my upstairs are always 2 degrees warmer than first floor... using mini split moving forward for better individual comfort.
Thanks for confirming everything i have thought sense 2011.
Great testimony! See if I was totally BS people, the evidence would not support what I am saying.
No zip R on roof per Huber zip
NO zip R, repeat-R, on roof per HUBER zip recommendation. No polyiso Zip r on roof per Huber recommendations.
Hi. I’m using spray foam for the open ceiling in a 3 season cabin. Limited solar power, therefore, no air exchanger. So basically passive venting. The building has a ridge vent, but no soffit venting. Should I leave the ridge vent active and not spray foam this area to allow any moist air to naturally escape? Air would be introduced via windows opened a crack. What are your thoughts? Thanks
A ridge vent is not for dealing with your internal HVAC concerns.
@@SprayJones Yes. I understand, you are correct. This will be used as a cabin on weekends. I would basically be using the ridge vent(not foamed along ridge) as a partial means of passive ventilation.
Great video. What do you recommend if we already have an atmospheric combustion installed in an attic and can't swap it out?
That means the attic has to remain ventilated for combustion air
I do not follow. You can bring source air from without can you not?
@Spray Jones, you would need a sealed combustion furnace to pipe air in. An atmospheric combustion furnace uses the air around it to burn clean. That air comes in through the attic vents. If an atmospheric combustion furnace doesn't have sufficient combustion air it will produce carbon monoxide, which is deadly.
In the middle of a remodel and have been back n forth with Huber engineering R zip is not engineered for roofs per Huber walls only.
Any sheathing approved by code then either rock wool or eps or xps 2 layers overlapping seams then zip on top with seams sealed is the best thermal barrier recommended, then spray foam underneath 2”-4” inches.
Huber said it’s not engineered this way but IMHO it’s the same sandwich the R zip to the existing sheathing to creat a thermal break or build it up with xps 🤷♂️🤦♂️
That is a good update.
I assume it will be down the road.
We have sprayed many decks that have rigid on the outside and a membrane so the principals are very similar.
@@SprayJones lol wish you were in Ct don’t trust these guys. Lol
Your very informative and have researched your product to know all aspects good, bad and ugly.
With the stripes. I see that on my roof where I have flat perlins and there is r-40+ of foam covering them. So there is zero thermal bridging. But you only see it on the East, south and west slopes. Because those are the ones that collect solar energy during the day and there is just enough thermal mass there to not form frost over night.
Really Enjoying this series. I am about to embark on building two pole buildings and eventually a home in northern Michigan. You really have changed my mind and plans. It was recommended to me to put tyvek on the walls of the pole buildings and spray the foam on that (Admittedly by a friend) . This would allow changing wall damage which would be more prevalent than roofing. My spray guy also recommended spraying directly to the roof steel. I didn't ask him about the walls. Would you advise against that as well for walls? I am thinking of a wainscoting steel that makes the lower panel easier to change if damaged. What about just a tyvek style material at the first 6 ft from the ground? Really enjoy your opinions and educated advise.
The walls can be wrapped. It needs to be tight, fully restrained and a good product that the foam will stick to.
The roof should be bare for the reasons I covered in the video.
@@SprayJones Many thanks and understand. I have posted links to your videos in all the Facebook barndominium groups. Everyone thinking about building should watch your channel. I got some comments about moisture control problems but I think you address that in your videos. Again thank you for taking so much time to create proper videos.
@@Nodularguy1 Thank you for that Jeff.
I'm planning to do closed cell foam inside at least 3" with Zip R and standing stem metal 24 gauge. My question is if I need more R value for code am I better to do more inside closed cell foam or thicker zip R outside? Also what do you think about doing a liquid applied flashing? Also both of these questions apply to the roof and the walls. I want to do the minimum 3 inch on the inside for the structural stability for Florida hurricanes but trying to decide whether to go more inside or outside to meet code. Thanks 👍
I think you need to have your plans reviewed and sealed with the specs.
Get Energy Wise Structures to help.
@@SprayJones definitely good advice. Thank you
R zip on walls is perfect great thermal barrier and depending on wall thickness will depend on thickness of zip to get you to code. Zip R is not recommended by Huber zip for roofs (not sure why) so good sheathing 2 layers of rock wool, xps or esp joints staggered depending on what building dept oks then zip on top taped. For eves and overhang cut back foam so sheathing covers the ends. Now you created an Envelope. Now spray your attic to correct thickness boom 💥
For walls I build 2x6 or 2x8 depending on code requirements for R rating in wall. I do the thinnest zip R because long screws are expensive and do smallest thickness wall that allows me to run my electrical in front of the foam.
@@jetmaster1221 Good info 👍. Are you a builder and where are you at?
@@brianlee6849 yes in CT. Do mostly remodels. No crew for a house build lol. I wish. Unfortunately most people don’t have the budget to do not so much the latest n greatest but the improvements on some of what we’ve already been doing
You seem to be one of very few that is promoting and talking about close cell unvented insulation. I'm doing a new build here in Moncton NB, and I can't find anyone that will agree to do it. Every insulation guy I'm talking to says I have to leave a gap for ventilation. I'm building with ICF for the efficiency of it, but also because it's sound proof. Unvented spray foaming would be the ultimate from what I'm listening from you to accomplish what I want to do, but most are against it. My roof is monopitch of 2.5, gables are ICF finished up to roof.
We have done a lot of ICF buildings where all that is left to SPF is the roof. Then it is 100% foam insulated, a great way to go, and really the only way if you believe in rigid insulation.
Your local SPF guys are ignorant of their craft. They treat it like just another insulation...
@@SprayJones if I remember correctly, you're in Canada too right? I found one who said the do spray under the roof deck, but they leave about an inch to let air flow. Not sure how he does that all while being unvented the other advantage I would see from this is no air leaks around Pod lights
@@luder13 I am in Sask. You no air space behind closed cell SPF.... period.
You also need to make sure your building department is OK with it. 99% are up to speed now, but even 8 years ago we still had to educate them that this was code compliant.
@@SprayJones thanks, I'll keep searching to see if someone can do it. Although budget is starting to get up there. LoL.
Hey luder, I am in Prince Edward Island. I am glad you wrote your comment. Did you find a spray form competent person to do the task?🇨🇦🍁
So if there are roof lines in the morning does that then show heat loss?
No.
As usual great video. Just in reference yo the last video on r value tests that mentioned it takes 24 hours for closed cell vs 4 for fibreglass to saturate or start loosing heat. A six times ratio.... Plus a loss of 50% in extreme winter or summer conditions. Closed cell traps a gas similar so new windows, and fibreglass is just more dense air within the fibres. Plus vapour barrier vs non vapour barrier material comparison is like apples and oranges. My question though is what to do with bathroom moisture, have there been any issues when foam is on the underside of the roof deck? I get the attic is going to be warm or cool just like the rest of the house but what about circulating that humid air? Would there need to be a intake draw inside the attic yo compensate for this system? Thanks Mike.
The bathroom fan is vented using an insulated duct to the outside of the roof or wall. Preferably the wall.
It is a non-issue when handled correctly.
@@SprayJones right, is that duct insulated also with spray foam or just the standard fibreglass sleeve with aluminum looking wrap on the outside. Those sleeves do loose heat but it would just be null and void if the roof deck is what is insulated. Would be an issue for the fibreglass insulated and vented attics.
@@SinnisjInsulator Standard sleeve. It is to stop the cold air coming into the duct from the outside when not running causing dripping inside... at least that is the idea.
It is like my range hood. That vents outside via a gable wall in the attic. We sprayed around the duct 3-4' back from the outside and it stays dry all the time now.
@@SprayJones it would definitely stay dry especially if you spray it. I've always wondered why they don't do that to fireplace exhausts. I'm talking about those flexible ones. I'm pretty sure you can spray around it directly against the exhaust because it already has a second inner exhaust built in to have that fire separation requirement. Coming back to the original question I was more refering to the bathroom ceiling directly above a shower or tub. I've seen osb and foam board installed to increase that vapour barrier and r value. With that no necessarily required in a roof deck insulation system, would there be significant moist hot air to deal with in the attic space?
Our roof is 1:12 pitch. Standing seam metal on ice and water shield on 5/8" CDX on 16" deep I-joists 19.2 oc. Do you see a lot of these roofs and do you see any problems with 3" ccSPF used on it?
Thanks in advanced!
I have seen many like that. The system is very sound, we have done many in 16 years.
I am not the authority for your area, so if you want 100% assurance have the system reviewed and sealed by a PE with license for your region.
I am responsible for providing housing to a cliental that require low cost. What is the Cost comparison from a flat R-40 Fiber Ceiling to at 7/12 pitch spray foamed roof deck? This along with the reduced heat load associated with this approach.
I don't get into that for jobs I am not involved with. Contact the person you would hire to spray it.
We are getting ready to put metal on our pole barn (heated shop, not living space) with plans of CC foam down the road. You said no membranes under the roof, but what about a house wrap on the walls? I purchased Typar for the walls, but would be happy to return if I don't need it. I like the idea of the foam on metal strength, but it can be hard to water seal windows and doors in post frame structures. I like the extra level of water proofing of the house wrap. Typar wrap around the window and door penetrations??
FYI You convinced us to CC foam our attic roof deck of our ICF house we are building this summer. Please keep up the informative videos!! Thank you, JP from Ohio
I have a video on spraying the walls of a pole shed from 2019. In that video I go over the wrap issue for the walls.
I know this is an older video, but maybe you can answer this question.
Have you seen RR buildings barndominium series that’s going right now? He did lp weather logic for roof sheathing with with a standing seam metal roof on top. Would closed cell foam make sense for the underside of the weather logic? Is the gap between the sheathing and the metal going to have a problem?
I honestly don't know anything about that product. If I was involved in the project I would review the tech data and go from there.
Wow! This video series is so full of information. For a novice researching spray foam I will need to watch this over and over! So can I used open cell foam on the roof deck of a pole barn with sheathing and metal roof? Or will it gather moisture and rot the sheathing?
I always like closed cell for any roof. That way any leak will not soak into the SPF, it will be held to the point of entry.
Spray foaming is way over priced now a days because of this stupid pandemic, so it's not an option anymore, as per a lot of contractors out my way. Even pink fiberglass is ridiculous now., so what is a home owner to do? Spend a fortune, or don't get any work done?
Start making some money and quit whining.
@@SprayJones oh I see lol, you're fine with the price hikes, your pockets are nicely stuffed now.
@@Monkey_Snot What makes you think I can make more money? Many times we keep up with the materials and nothing else.
Mindset.... pass it along and find new avenues to recoup if you can. If you cannot, leave and flip burgers.
@@SprayJones maybe as a contractor you should put your foot down and say no to these price hikes from your supplier, and so should your supplier and so on down the line, there is no reason for these price hikes other than the manufacturer can, because of some pandemic? They're just using this excuse to gouge us, and you. The government does nothing, because it lines their pockets, but you doing nothing but putting down a consumer is pretty sad as a business owner, obviously you're not hurting or you'd agree, but don't worry, I'd never use your company, I'd have to flip a lot of burgers.
I feel your pain but we’re stuck manufacturer’s are like don’t buy it we have enough other people willing to pay. Try finding a 2x4 under $7 impossible so I either buy it and pass it on or don’t take the job. Bent over a barrel no lube.
I have been building high end homes with what we call solar board. The aluminum foil backed decking. Are there any issues with foaming under that material?
All depends on how it is restrained.
I'm getting ready to build a shop house I'd like your recommendation should I spray the roof underneath my tin? And 2nd question on the walls do you think there should be a vapor barrier outside between the tin and the spray phone
Q1. You have my answer to that in parts 1-3 of that video series.
Q2. I have no idea why you would even need what you are asking from the outside. I cover walls for post frames in depth. Whole playlist dedicated to that...
I just watched Matt from off the ranch had his abandoned mansion spray foamed with open cell. We are looking into building a house in Michigan should we use open or closed cell in our build?
Watch my video of open cell, then water roof SPF, is SPF a vapor barrier, and you should know by then what is right for you.
I do not want to insulate the bottom of the rafters with spray foam because I want to screw my drywall ignition barrier right to the rafters. Just want to spray foam the underside of the roof sheathing and the wider vertical faces of the rafters. Is that okay?
What are you watching?? This whole 4 part series is about doing the roof deck.
@@SprayJones - Yes, that roof deck series is what I am watching. At one point in [one of the 4 parts] pretty sure you said that you normally coat the bottom edge of the rafter. I was just asking if that can be omitted.
@@abeloewy5458 Top cord, we cover the top cord, never where the drywall will be placed.
@@SprayJones - Thank you for the very quick replies and for a great series of videos.
So if there are roof lines in the morning does that then show heat loss?
No.
Dedicated video to that phenom.
I just sprayed under my roof with closed cell two days ago. I had a small minor leak that was addressed before we sprayed. From what I been reading is that I pretty much new a new roof if one leak already started. I do plan on redoing my roof in the next two years. Will I be fine or will the closed cell unventilated system accelerate any weakness and cause serious water damage before I am able to install new roofing??
The CCSPF will hold the water damage to the outside and that is it. Who wants water coming into the house?
You do not let water into the house to "deal" with a leak.
@@SprayJones What would you recommend I do to waterproof the exterior of my roof when I'm
ready for new shingles?
35:30 Happy to hear that temperatures were pretty consistent across attic, living and crawl spaces. That is/was a concern I had with my new home build. However, the humidity level in his house seems to be the issue. Not sure why it would be so low since outdoor humidity was pretty high.
The owner had too much time on his hands. he ran the HRV a lot to get rid of paint smells, and other items he "smelled" in the new home. As a result he had a big electric bill and very low humidity.
In Jan or Feb here it is not uncommon to have 29% RH in the homes.
@@SprayJones I wonder why he didn't just open windows... Unless it was a snowy blizzard outside.
Extremely informative and you should start your own school. 1st question, when is your US tour?
Start in Nashville Tennessee... I have a 4' crawl space, I'm definitely spraying 2-3" close cell on the concrete block walls ( exterior block sealed with waterproof tar). What are your thoughts on 2-3" close cell on top of 3/4 inch stone ground? I am thinking as a moisture barrier and a radon deflector. The floor joists are 2x8, I have approximate R19 rockwool already installed. I have one side wall vent and 4" radon pipe through the roof.
I suggest watching the video I have about crawl spaces and ground contact. In that vid I cover many of the questions you are asking.
@@SprayJones I searched your channel and found a ton of videos about basements but nothing mentioning crawl spaces. Is there a specific video you’d recommend?
@@Travisrogers87 Watch the video "spray foam insulation for in ground situations"
second part of the video is for crawl spaces.
On a flat roof, can you uses CC foam between the framing and OSB with fiberglass exterior to the OSB?
Fibrous on the outside of a flat roof?
@@SprayJones do the soffits need to be vented on a hot roof
@@TrueNorth9862 a hot roof means no soffit venting. He has a few videos on this.
👍👍
What about hydronic radiant heat. Then mini split for AC and heating in the spring and early fall
Yes. what about it. I have geothermal in my house, with an HRV system.
So can I install an HRV in the Atiic space without building a separate room?
@@SprayJones I'm thinking about this unit?
th-cam.com/video/OrG7oG8Tvp8/w-d-xo.html
@@SprayJones I'm in the northeast US. Zone 6
@@Ken_Myette Probably not. I do not know where you are, what you are doing, or what your codes are.
The principals are given in the video now you do your home work for your area.
Excellent points. For spray foaming on inside, what is your preference of osb seathing with water/air barrier on top vs zip system. Also for osb seathing would air sealing the joints using tape help in a better System overall
99% of what we do is OSB with shingles.
We rarely get involved with roof spec etc.
@@SprayJones : thanks
Zip taped every joist and seam. Can’t go wrong
@@jetmaster1221 : thanks . Zip tape even on osb seathing?
I love your recommendation to get the envelope and the HVAC engineered and balanced. What type of engineer do I need to contact to get the envelope designed?
My local building inspector wants seven and a half inches of spray foam under the roof deck to hit the r49. I find this ridiculous based on watching your videos. Am I supposed to get a exemption to the code or something like that?
I'm also rewatching video 2 which seems to go into this.