Why do Cylinder Sleeves Drop? | Darton Sleeves
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- Modern engine builds are now producing more and more power than ever intended often at 100+ Psi boost pressures that were unbelievable not all that long ago, especially on small 4 cylinder applications but due to products like Darton Sleeves, the unbelievable is now a reality. John Catapang from Darton Sleeves answers some of our questions on why OEM sleeves are so limiting and how these issues have been addressed with products like their ductile iron MID™ sleeves.
John and Andre discuss sleeve installation requirements, open deck limitation, OEM sleeve issues (thickness, material quality and ductility) and how quality aftermarket sleeves can avert these problems while at the same time increasing the displacement potential and handling much greater amounts of heat, pressure and movement.
--------------------------------
TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Strength Limitations
0:32 - Why Factory Blocks & Sleeves Suck
1:40 - Open Deck Designs
2:41 - OEM Sleeve Flex
3:22 - Dartons Solution
4:28 - Sleeve Wall Thickness Comparisons
5:22 - Top Fuel Sleeve
6:16 - Closed Deck Conversion
7:00 - Why Do Sleeves Drop?
8:30 - Machinists Get Triggered Here
9:27 - Sleeve Flat Vs Stepped Deck
10:48 - Individually Replaced
12:00 - Thanks John!
12:30 - BUILD | TUNE | DRIVE
--------------------------------
🧰 Learn more about Performance Engine Building by coming along to the following FREE lesson: hpcdmy.co/eby
#highperformanceacademy #enginebuilding101 #dartonsleeves #enginebuild #machining #sleeves #opendeck #closdeddeck #engineblock #darton #techtalk - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
![3000HP, 150 PSI Of Boost | What Do YOU Know About Compound Turbo Systems | Shane T [TECH TALK]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1pV_tLbZY0A/mqdefault.jpg)
Not gonna lie didn't see his left arm for the first 90 seconds of the video and came to the conclusion he was a amputee then bam out it came to my disbelief
He's been working on that party trick for a while =) - Taz.
They want to amputee your wallet as well for sleeves you dont need....
Its all i can focus on.
I agree Ductile Iron is far superior in tension than plain grey cast iron but please remember the material they are using is still a cast iron based material with additional flow, strength and casting additives that allows increased base tension strength due to the forming of the carbon (graphite) in more uniform formed rounder shapes (nodules) rather than the flakes normal grey cast iron has, this increases the bonding strength between the molecules and the reduction of sharp edged graphite (that causes stress raisers) and long thin graphite with high surface area and very low tensile strengths compared to the nodules shape.
These materials in conjunction with the casting method and the following heat treatment allows the normal cast ion to be formed as Ductile (cast) iron. Yes I know its is a different final produce but the interview could lead to some people thinking its not a cast iron based produce, and no the guy was not wrong, every thing he said (except for the machining, how did we old tradesmen manage to produce high quality Areo and ship engines, diesel and turbines etc before cnc machines which do give a much higher consistency) is correct and Ductile iron liners are certainly a lot lot stronger than plain normal grey cast iron liners.
A couple of things to remember.
1/ Cast iron is very very high strength in compression, moderate strength in sheer but very low strength in tension (pressure in the cylinder cast iron liner into tension).
2/ Grey Cast iron is still the best material for normal liners in the standard designed engine where the wall thickness is correct to prevent the tension failures. This is due to porous nature of grey cast iron that allows oil to impregnate the top layers and in conjunction with the flakes of graphite provide better lubrication and reduced friction for better. long term wear. This is why we generally don't use steel liners that could be made a lot lot stronger and lighter in weight, they just wear out to quick and have a lot higher friction losses without excessive lubrication and burning oil.
3/ Ductile Iron liners are the best solution as a compromise between liner lubrication, slight increase in friction, good life expectancy and the need for higher internal cylinder pressures for higher non standard/performance engines.
I'm not critical on this guy or your channel (I like it and your style) but the main reason I raise this is that i'm constantly hearing miss information and old wives tales in auto industry and if more people knew the details it would help, reduce fake costs, better tailored to suit the need outcomes and allow the good providers to get paid for what they are worth. (no not me I'm not in this industry just a poor old fitter and turner and fully qualified Marine Engineer who is semi retired and has far to much time on his hands, eg writing this long winded stuff)
Ps. open deck blocks and liner support/flex can be addressed with recessed cylinder heads and a combination of head gasket to control fluids and movement wear and inserted firing/compression rings to retain the cylinder sealing but its out of the realm of most machine shops and a lot higher cost but very effective solution.
P.sssss. the suppler site does discuss most of the technical stuff i crap on about above so looks to be a open and honest suppler.
@@SuperSreggin if you read it you'd be thanking him for his knowledgeable comment instead of being a smartass...
But then again, most probably it would have gone right over your head... 😂😂😂😂
Thanks for that in-depth comment.. I love it when the comments section contains contributors like you , knowledgeable & intelligent.
A question... is "nodular cast iron" & "ductile iron" the exact same material ?
Wow!!! What an informative comment. Really gave me a lot to think about. Recessed cylinder heads would be such a good solution to reducing flex in the block.
Valuable info, some us really appreciate it, thanks for sharing.
@@bhagvedsingh2147 i was thinking the same thing. Ive seen this done before where the combustion chamber is recessed into the sleeve...but i dont remember where i saw it.
Hi Andre. Thank you for sharing this high quality content. I just want to drop a mention of the rover KV6 for your viewers who are likely interested in internal engine design. The KV6 is one of the biggest lemon engines in modern history. Absolutely notorious for head gasket failures due to dropping the sleeves which scraps the whole engine. Rover used an extremely unconventional design - interesting to research and see "what not to do" for a performance build. Basically they used an alloy block with extreme open deck design, with the floating IRON liners only held in place by clamping force from long thru bolts sandwiching the block between the head and main bearings. Not the sturdiest design and then you add the usual mix of british insanity, ie wrong thermostat placement, sloppy production tolerances, plastic head dowels(!), and bad gasket technology... the result was exactly as bad as what you would expect.
The K engine caused massive headaches for landrover freelander owners, then after all the bad publicity, kia bought the licence cheap cheap and fitted it to their first generation carnival/sedona minivans. Something like 40% of their carnivals had engine blocks replaced under the 3 year warranty due to head gasket/sleeve failure and kia was still forced to offer goodwill engine replacements for vehicles well out of warranty. Anyway storytime over, keep up the good videos mate!
I just blew my headgaskets due to an open deck design. This vlog has been very very helpful on how to solve the issue. It also shows the pitfalls if done improperly and how to stay away from them.
I love watching him shake his head as he listens to answers after a question. You can see he already knows and is just waiting to get next question out. I just think its funny but his knowledge is very useful at asking the right questions. Great jnterviewer
Fantastic videos, such indepth technical knowledge under discussion, and with such clarity!
Some Cylinder Sleeves I’ve seen in the past had a Lip that fit in a grove that’s machined in the Block Deck to keep IT from moving out of place.
Great interview as always
John seems like a top bloke. Thanks for the upload HPA as always. Have a nice day.
He really is! Super helpful and knowledgeable. - Ben
Yeah mate. You guys as well, doing great work and its really appreciated. Are any of you boys heading over for GT-R Festival on the 26th? Would love to come have a chat about the tuning course and stuff. Cheers -Dale
Thank you! This answered alot for me!
Awesome video. Thanks!
Great info! Thank you 🙏
Loving these tech talks, very useful.
Holy shit I never would of thought the sleeve could flex that much and go back!😲
Ima make an appointment with my barber for that microphone.
wbrito8617 it’s very windy in there. 🤣
Andre asks the best questions known to the performance world...
I love this interviews
Installing of daeton sleeve How much for that build? My b20b block also need that for reliability
hi guys is it save to use if my block little bit too thin because i use big liner ( original 99c and i use liner normaly for 200cc bike) and at one point my block run out of its alumunium and i can see clearly the liner from outside
Hello from Mexico!
Keep it up your the next big thing on TH-cam 👍👍👍💪💪💪👌
Cheers Timothy, we're doing our best to keep pumping out good content =) - Taz.
Awesome!!!
Wonder if x52 steel from pipelines would work in sleeves.
I have the MID sleeves in a Noonan Block for a 427 build. It's still waiting for a suitable builder to finish it, but I recently heard a rumor that MID's are not suitable for a street build as the MID's could 'move around' and/or leak coolant. This video seems to point to installation errors for this to happen, but I was hoping to hear from other's that may have firsthand accounts.
I work in a machine shop, anything that goes wrong with sleeved blocks usually is installation error, we've seen everything from dropped sleeves to compression loss from improper sleeve installation height. In fact before the lockdown from covid-19 we worked on a M.I.D sleeved k20 turbo street engine runs great only came in for a bore size change from 86.5 to 87mm
So people think sleeves moving around is only good is high performance races engines. Love the logic.
What about the cooling vs a dry sleeve in aluminum?
that guy knows his stuff
Good info. Looks like a great product.
I guess this Guy has never met a real machinist.
You can do all of this on a Moore Jig Bore #2 with far superior accuracy than CNC.
With a Moore you can hold 10ths in tolerance. .0005 is pretty good for CNC. I would agree that .0005 would nearly be impossible with a Bridgeport. They aren’t ridged enough.
Oh yeah not knocking CNC it is a amazing technology. But it’s not the only way.
Question. How long do sleeves typically last?
Lifetime of the vehicle if properly maintained. Hundreds of thousands of miles easily. On race engines, because perfection, they may resleeve a block after a race 🤷♂️ all depends.
Just out of curiosity, can those wet darton sleeves work on an RB?
Yes, I'm replying to a 2 year old comment on a 5 year old video. Nissan RBs are a closed deck cast iron block design. Hypothetically, you could make it work, but why would you bother?
Another one of those times when Andre is heaps smarter than the poor bloke he's interviewing but always professional always a gentleman you walked him through it and made more good content ...
Adam Naylor that's a tough call. U don't know if the guy is nervous being on camera, or if he really is unsure. Seems like he did a decent job.
How do you feel in a job interview? Think on that as you read your comment.
I know my stuff but put a camera in my face and I may as well be in primary school. I can't explain why.
The guys seemed pretty clued up on what he was talking about.
That dude is pretty fucking smart if you ask me
How did you come to that conclusion lmfao? Andre is soaking up this dudes knowledge like a sponge cos he knows he knows his stuff
What might be a ballpark cost to sleeve a 4 cylinder engine?
We don't sell any hardware Uriah so give Darton a yell directly to find that information out. They're a helpful bunch :) - Taz. dartonsleeves.com/
High Performance Academy
Will do, thanks for the info
I have a guy that charges ~$600 to install pressed type liners (dry sleeves).... The sleeves are around $120 each... Then the machine work and install is about 600 bucks.... so about $1000-$1200 for everything to be done....I would guess that the wet MID sleeve setup would be a little more... hope it helps....
About $1200 w/ Darton sleeves on a 4 banger.
well the add on this youtube page hear is showing me k20 sleeves for 645 lol. The cost of installation idk
After watching this wish me luck with my build, it’s a darton sleeved k20 which wasn’t machined via a cnc machine. The machine shop has good reviews so let’s hope I don’t drop a sleeve
Any updates?
Are sleeves stronger than inserting closed-deck inserts?
Probably depends on how much of the factory cylinder remains with the insert. My wager is that sleeves are stronger, but my money will still go to a closed deck insert, just so I can afford to build it in my lifetime.
Darton should make d17a2 sleeves
It's not poor installation as they would want you to believe, its the amount of material that needs to be removed for installations,
Combination of both.
So, do sleeves eleiminate the need for a closed deck conversion? I have an N54
Stupid question man.
Terry Camara FUCK you. Ass hole
I don't know about every scenario, but it looks like lots of sleeves emulate a closed deck by flanging the top of the sleeve to meet the block. Probably not always, might depend on engine design or sleeve manufacturer.
Depends on how much power your making 7-800ish ho I heard sleeves are more than strong enough for open deck N54's. There was a forum discussion briefely taking about it.
One thing I've never understood is why they make them so stupid thick, just to have a thin faliure point between cylinders, as the weakest point and limiting factor. After all the main stress on a liner is hoop-stress tensile. Might as well just have them like the thin-spots all way round, save weight and get better cooling.
Sleeves are stronger than the block material
Sleeving aluminum blocks, especially open deck types is an absolute must, even if one is just going for a mere refreshing of the engine running stockish power. One might get away with not sleeving a stock aluminum block when refreshing it, or even removing material due to minor cylinder damage if the block has the thickness, but he will not get the longevity an iron alloy sleeve offers. Using high quality sleeves of a properly balanced iron alloy between durability, rigidity and ductility is also another must, poor sleeve design and alloy will net you more problems than just re-boring/honing the stock sleeves most of the times. The last must is correct and precise installation as stressed on this interview, get it wrong or do a sloppy job and get ready for a cracked block. High quality iron alloy sleeves, are low in silicon and higher in nickel. Darton sleeves for us gearheads, are considered high quality sleeves and are well known and proven for high performance in the motorsport field. Nice interview as always, and proper info from Darton.
Marios EvoCy
Completely disagree, I work in a full service automotive machine specializing in Subs, Hondas, Mitsubishi etc..what we're seeing is block structure weakness due to removal of block support material. I have a B18C1 on the bench right now that is junk. MID system was installed and due main bearing bore distortions and block twist it junk.
Dayton an LA Sleeve are both good products, but I don't like the MID. I would rather use a thin wall sleeve with a block guard.
We have an EJ25 that did a true 800 hp.
The MID is a good product and works well if installed right. It is your unquestionable right to disagree if you consider it so, and use whatever type of sleeve you consider best for any intended application.
Any cast iron or aluminum block can be sleeved, there is nothing wrong with sleeving when done right. No bore surface treatment on aluminum blocks can replace the durability and longevity of a proper iron alloy sleeve. If an aluminum block has damage in one cylinder, there is no point in sleeving only that cylinder with the same oem type aluminum material sleeve, the correct process is sleeving all the cylinders with iron sleeves. If it's a cast iron block, yes you can sleeve an un-sleeved damaged cylinder with an iron sleeve of stronger alloy and even if you use oem rings you will not have any issues, but it's always better to freshen the block by sleeving all of the cylinders.
I have yet to see a block that can't be sleeved successfully, unless it is completely out of shape and or severely damaged, so I disagree on this. I also disagree on any other process, either that be coating, anodized, plasma coating of any type or nickel type of coating etc, having and yeilding better results than iron alloy sleeves. I did not say that there are oem manufactured or already offered aluminum matrix liners, I said that it is possible to use such sleeves on an aluminum block if you want by having them made. These can be made from high melting temperature aluminum alloy composite, such as Al-Mn, Al-Cr, Al-Ni, Al-Fe and Al- Cr-Zr alloys. It is not something I would do personally, although when these alloys are reinforced with ceramic particles, they attain the properties required for cylinder liners in high performance engines, i.e. high melting temperature, good strength at the service temperature, higher thermal conductivity than cast iron, good wear resistance and good corrosion resistance. The reason I prefer cast iron alloy ones are mostly cost effective ones also ready made availability for basically any application, and high quality ones have high wear resistance,high elevated temperature strength; and high melting temperature, and although cast iron has a high specific gravity and a low thermal conductivity in relation to an aluminum/silicon based matrix, they are still up to the job 100%. Now about the tooling used to work on the aluminum matrix, and I'm sure by diamond you mean carbide,it is there, you just need to find the right supplier. As for the bedding of rings on iron/nickel alloy sleeve, the honing procedure can be the same as on "regular" cast iron block/sleeves , you can use the same pattern i.e, and if the manufacturer of the sleeves recommends more shallow grooving, then you need to follow the instructions of the manufacturer. In regards to the last bit of your post, of course it is block that is the problem, and the problem mostly lies with open deck blocks, that's why stronger sleeves are used and the block is converted to closed deck. It seems that you did not understand what I said about sleeving any block, if the block cannot support a wet sleeve then you will use the appropriate dry sleeve and keep the open deck form of the block, but I also have yet to see an open deck block of good condition that cannot be converted to close deck with a wet sleeve.
@@dazaspc
KOLBENSCHMIDT manufacture aluminium cylinder liners for Porsche... their Lokasil liners were used in the Boxster. They also manufacture Alusil liners for Porsche, BMW & MB engines.
Can you do them on a air cooled 911
They probably do produce them. Check on their website. And probably cheaper than the cost of sleeves currently produced for older 911's. The current sleeves you get for old 911's are quite pricy in my opinion
I love being a car nerd
Can i ask if anyone knows how to keep coolant and oil separate when running sleeves.
You have to machine the block so you can fit o rings(copper or other materials depending on what material your block and head are made off) around the water and oil channels.. Prodrives wrx sti that they built to run the isle of man doesnt have a headgasket
Also it depends like he says in the video. What application you are using it for. A street motor will still run a mls gasket so no need for any extra machining
His accent to an American not paying 100% attention @ 1:45 I thought he said an "Open DICK design where the sleeves and cylinders themselves aren't connected" lol... I was like... wait wHAT??! Is he talking circumcision!?!?! I thought I clicked play about friggin cylinder bore sleeves hah.
This is some good beer and greens ROFL.
We're branching out into men's health :) - Taz.
The only types of manual machine I would consider boring a block out for sleeves like this are a Jig Mill, a Boring Bar or a jig Boring machine. Any one who would even think about doing it on a Bridgeport is looking for trouble. A BP has insufficient depth capability plus the bore diameter is outside the machines scope. No matter what type of machine you used it would most likely be a good idea building a fixture for locating the block. Spent 32+ years in the Tool Room of an engine manufacturing facility.
He said it one way to put install then hd said it depends on your preference how you want to install
how much increasing temperature for dry sleeves rather than wet sleeve
Ductile iron is still cast iron. lol
I would have liked to hear them discuss sleeving an Alusil engine that doesn't actually come with steel sleeves from the factory.
Pros none, cons are a ton! Honda k series and B series (not the B20) bone stock sleeves are good for a reliable 500hp all day everyday as long as you keep you tune in check. Anything over 500 your not ever going to get to the ground on a street application anyhow. Invest the $2000 dollar sleeve cost somewhere else....
You don’t make sleeves for Toyota 2AR/FE that sucks.
They make a line of generic ones.
Eluderatnight could you send me a link by chance I can’t seem to find them and I’m in he middle of an engine build with high boost pressures.
Byron Langley HAHAHAHAHHAHA 2AZFE ALL THE WAY BABYYYY
I've never seen a channel where the guy interviewing knows more than the guy he is interviewing.
If you want your block to be strong like a spartan , to the machine shop to swap in Darton 😎
thats not true..darton do there sleeve job not like there datasheet on download. honda blocks have so much sink sleeve.
LA SLEEVES FTW!!!!!!
I also just went with LA sleeves for my e257 build , just got it running. Gonna see how they will do 😁
Too many fools claiming you don’t need cnc. Look at the shape of the bottom of the sleeve. It’s not completely circular like most machinist sleeve shavers. Cnc is critical for those points for perfect fitment. I was gonna buy a sleeved b18c5 from someone local on fb marketplace. The bottom of the sleeves were totally sleeved instead of leaving the notch the block requires for allowing the sleeved to sit perfectly…
interessant
Here to understand what boostedboiz just got for the mr2.
Hola darton kit de sleeves q sean more bigger to do a cilinder xrv africa twin 750 to 1000 our turbo
cracked, corrict?
Nope! Keep watching ;) - Taz.
As a old machinist I say he's a child that has no clue about machining. You don't need a CNC for any of that. CNC has its place but not required for this.
Deck*
The guy from Darton knows his product...but knows little about machining. You absolutely do not need a CNC machine.
The tightest specd dimensional tolerance is +/-0.001“ and a Ra32 or better finish...basically any machinist could do this with a clapped out Bridgeport (or even a big old lathe) and a boring head.
Dang, for awhile I thought the guy just had one arm
like
#HEADGASKET
Biggup MCM,,,,
PEACE ✌
Please stop saying Open Dick design...I cant stop laughing lol
liner height should be set according to oem specs, too high and you risk oil/water sealing issues. too low and you risk compression side leakage issues
Setting non-OEM parts to OEM specs is not a good idea. If you have the gear to machine for and fit sleeves yourself, the supplier, Darton or otherwise, is the source you want, not your OEM.
I can't remember which specific interview addresses the height/depth but both Julien Godfrey and Oskar Elmgren have shared some good details on cylinder sleeving for those interested - Taz.
th-cam.com/video/EivSsXxgiUg/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/o3wGe2aU6SE/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/MvevlhjVEFk/w-d-xo.html
The gasket is designed to work with a certain liner height, too high and you risk distorting the head and having coolant/oil leaks and mixing.
Too low and you risk burning out the fire ring or losing the seal between cylinders under compression.
it looks like this guy has no left arm he stands so perfectly side on
Takes a lot of practice - Taz.
First! My life is complete now! 🙃
🏆and here is your prize sir.
"Higher horse power application"
I Heard LA Sleeves from ELEVATE are Better.
Where'd you hear that and better in what ways? Share some technical information with a comment like that 😎- Taz
lol, how he pronounces open dick , I mean open deck. interesting stuff on sleeving. nice interview.
7 minutes of advertisement for their product before they start talking about the liners dropping.
I wish he would enunciate "deck" with more of an american accent. Sounds like he keeps saying dick surface lolol
don't talk about the machining of accuracy I work with +/- .0002 and a daily on conventional machines. stay in your field of knowledge. other then that greta interview did his company good
daniel velez congratulations
@@showtime9878 thank you I work tirelessly for days on that one. Was it really that good. I wasn't ready for this I dont thank. Oh I'm blushing. I only bring it up because choosing a machine shop to do your work is the most important part of the engine build and thinking cnc will get you the best results as the only option may have you shelling out money and get bad results. Looking into the tolerances rather then the equipment is primary
daniel velez nice man. Sounds like a good job
I'm sure they know from experience what works or not, but his explanations sound like BS. Ductile iron is cast iron. I'd like to see him squeeze that sleeve down to 1" and watch it spring back due to memory "effect". I don't trust much of what he says.
So, You're taking a ordinary engine and turning it into a race engine
Why can't these Australians are English people say aluminum instead of saying aluminium
Is John Catapang Australian!? Because Andre certainly isn't =P
You can blame some scientist for being indecisive about which version he wanted to use, look it up and be informed =) - Taz.
This is irrelevant as we move from ice engines. We need to move from these industries
No one is stopping you from running an EV race car if that's your choice Keith. There are a few out there giving it a crack. In Formula E they can even last an entire race now even though they're not really pushing things in the same way many ICE race engines are 🤘 - Taz.
i dont think theres anything different abt these sleeves. its all crap. all B.S. factory sleeves r not bad either. sleeves r not gnna increase H.P or torque. waste of money.
This is 100% correct for some applications. If you are not pushing enough pressure and power to cause the issues that makes you need a product like this, then you indeed do not need them!
There are a lot of people out there building engines that do run into issues which require the use of products like this though 😎 - Taz.
It’s a option for people looking to get more cubic inches out of the same block.