Why Stock Brakes Suck & How To Fix Them
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
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Numbers like ‘1000HP’ and ‘100 PSI of boost’ catch our attention the most when it comes to motorsport builds as we can easily understand what they mean, but brake setups, while being equally if not more important, take a backstage role by comparison. For most, admittedly, it is much harder to get excited about figures or terms like ‘380mm’ and ‘staggered-piston design’, at least it is until you understand what it all means...
In this interview with Phil Stubbs of Alcon Brakes, we’re going to take a look at why stock brakes on a production-turned-race car are terrible on track and what aspects you need to consider when looking to bin your OEM discs and calipers for something more effective.
Slots and gloves plus caliper and disc size in relation to braking performance are discussed along with airflow requirements, where sliding calipers braided brake lines sit when it comes to brake feel, plus on the other end of the spectrum what carbon-carbon brakes are vs carbon ceramic and what their weaknesses are compared to cast iron.
What is actually happening when you are bedding your brakes and the importance of doing that process correctly is also touched on, along with how in the motorsport world, companies like Alcon and similar offer pre-bedded brake packages, which save race teams time and potential inconsistency of doing it themselves on a race weekend when they should be focused on car setup and increasing driver confidence.
Seen this before? We released this on the RaceCraft channel previously and it was too good not to bring over to the larger HPA audience, so, here it is again!
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TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Stock Brakes Are Not Built For Racing
0:26 - Phil Stubbs - Alcon Brakes
0:35 - Production/Stock Limitations
1:35 - Larger Brake Rotors
2:25 - Bigger Is Better For Cooling
3:06 - Caliper Considerations
3:52 - Pad Diameter
4:23 - Caliper Compliance/Stiffness/Flex
5:17 - ABS & Brake Balance
6:41 - Brake Bias Fine Adjustment
7:14 - Why Stagger Caliper Piston Sizes?
8:18 - Slotting & Groves On Rotors
9:24 - Bedding Brakes
10:29 - Pre Bedded Brakes
11:27 - Cast Iron Vs Carbon Carbon
12:22 - Carbon Ceramic, What Are They?
13:17 - Thanks Phil!
13:27 - BUILD.TUNE.DRIVE
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TAGS:
#highperformanceacademy #alcon #brakes #brakeupgrade #alconbrakes #learntotune #enginebuilding101 #dontletthesmokeout #wiring101 #dieseltuning #datanerd #gofasterwithdata #racecraft #learndriveoptimise #motorsport #buildtunedrive - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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Brake System course. Design & optimise your set up. Now 50% OFF: hpcdmy.co/offery28
TIME STAMPS:
0:00 - Stock Brakes Are Not Built For Racing
0:26 - Phil Stubbs - Alcon Brakes
0:35 - Production/Stock Limitations
1:35 - Larger Brake Rotors
2:25 - Bigger Is Better For Cooling
3:06 - Caliper Considerations
3:52 - Pad Diameter
4:23 - Caliper Compliance/Stiffness/Flex
5:17 - ABS & Brake Balance
6:41 - Brake Bias Fine Adjustment
7:14 - Why Stagger Caliper Piston Sizes?
8:18 - Slotting & Groves On Rotors
9:24 - Bedding Brakes
10:29 - Pre Bedded Brakes
11:27 - Cast Iron Vs Carbon Carbon
12:22 - Carbon Ceramic, What Are They?
13:17 - Thanks Phil!
13:27 - BUILD.TUNE.DRIVE
At this point, I really wonder if when people know they are getting an interview by Andre, if it's like a restaurant getting ready for their first Michelin star eval.
Was one of the first things I upgraded to when modifying my car, Alcon big brake kit with monobloc calipers and semi floating rotors. Still my favourite modification on street and track.
Personal example: mini R56, stock brakes (non jcw) would cook and become butter in 3 brakes from 170km/h to 90km/h (3 corners). After installing JCW Brembos with custom braided lines, and sloted and drilled rotors I was not able to once get them energy saturated. In fact rear brakes that do not have sloted/vented/drilled rotors get hotter than front brakes in a hot hatch (63/37 weight)
heat capacity makes sense although I didn’t give it attention , basically for example instead of a temperature range of 300 through 550C while on a track you would get say 400 to 500C if the disc has a larger mass(can be thicker not necessarily larger Φ). then beefier disc means more heat transfer (radiation/convection).
Insanely nice stuff coming out of Alcon ✅
Very informative... I'll have to analyze my brake system which consists of a hydroboost conversion, 14 inch 2 piece rotors, 4 piston stoptech calipers, stainless braided lines and Stoptech street/race pads. All this on my 95 Mustang GT. Great video Andre and HPA team🏆🏆🏆
Great information, thanks for posting
There’s a lot to think about in every aspect of building a car. Stock brakes on daily drivers are made for daily driving. High performance brakes are made for high performance vehicles. Some larger brakes weigh less so the fact that they’re larger doesn’t take away power. Also these vehicles have more power that reduce the effect of a larger possibly heavier set of brakes. The duo here provided a lot of information and it’s mainly for those upgrading insufficient systems for the purposes they need them for. For any number of issues there are options to be had to rectify them. Really there are a number of setups that will act the same and provide the same results but be different in its components. It’s up to the client, driver, team to wade through the info and options and trial and error and I get to where they feel is best for them and their needs.
I converted my pony car from front drums to disc brakes from a much heavier car. At least I’m moving in the right direction. For us cheap skates, start with upgraded pads, stainless braid flex lines, cooling ducts and judicious use of that middle pedal.
The fastest c7z time attack car in the country is running stock front and rear non ceramic brake calipers and rotors with gloc pads. Would it be faster with a set of race brakes? Maybe but only cause some are lighter.
@@ClaytonYatescarenthusiast Gloc pads. Noted.
And good fluid like ravenol racing +325c
Very informative
We all know how important brakes are, but when your using a carbon/carbon set up and then having to adapt fly by wire throttle assemblys in the cooling ducts using infra-red temp. monitoring of the disc surface and design a module to control the system, just because the Am part of a Pro/Am team takes 2-3 laps to get the brakes back up to temp, you have to wonder why.🤔
Be nice if there were more options for 2500-3500 series trucks to improve brake performance, especially when heavy towing.
check with both Alcon and Wilwood, i do believe they are now offering some truck specific fitments. i believe i first saw it displayed at their respective booths back at PRI 2022 and saw it again recently at PRI 2023, so somebody at one of these 2 companies IS listening.
It's even worse trying to find brakes for a tiny 1500lb car. The smallest brakes on the market are massive overkill, and 2/3 of the brakes on the market are a larger diameter than my wheels.
Check out ssbc brakes. They make fantastic truck brakes and work fantastic. Definitely shortens the braking distance.
What about additional strain on the servo?
Im surprised ABS cant account for large variations in caliper given they account for 2 wheels in the gravel + steering in an emergency.
It's counterintuitive to me.
Cheers, good video :)
It's not that they can't account for slip/lock, I think the issue here would be hiw effective the abs will be due to pressure?
@@mayk3lll id agree. While the abs will still work given that usually its more based off wheel speed sensor etc, how effective it will work will be very much changed once you begin to drastcially change
it's due to the fact that the ABS expects the wheels to lock up at a certain pressure due to the components used. when you fit a larger rotor it might lock up at a lower pressure or maybe even higher because you have the higher rotational mass. or the same rotor might lock at a lower pressure due to a larger piston in the caliper. the ABS is calibrated for stock components; whenever you change to different parts you unbalance the ecuation ;)
@@alexK661 hi i understand your point - but the tyre lock up pressure is totally different in wet weather to dry weather, to icy road.
Anyway i get what your saying, sometimes an unexpected result can happen from modifications. 🍻
@@ben7020 yes, point well made with the road conditions when the car has no idea about it. I assume manufactures calibrate the system for the highest percentage of use? Though you could take into account cold weather from the instrument cluster, wet or sandy roads would be a mystery
One thing that I don’t think you have covered yet is carbon clutches and shimming them .
Good content as usual guys 👍
Shimming?
@@NickTaylorRickPowers carbon carbon clutches need shimming to set the pressure on the clutch plates correctly and periodically to allow for wear , friend has an AP 4 1/2 “ one in his car that’s how I know
I have Alcons on my F150 and they are not that great. They are better than the base brakes but the diameter is not enough mass to absorb the thermal load from slowing down.
what about the pads? which are using? also what diameter rotor?
@@jamesmedina2062 I’ve already upgraded this setup to the Roush F150 brakes. It’s really hard to slow down 6,000 pounds on a 350mm rotor, even if they are 6 piston calipers. Not enough thermal mass. I’ve already researched this one.
@@RadDadisRad thermal only becomes a factor when there are repeated stops. So, I would venture there are other factors such as the master cylinder diameter and the pad composition, unless your only complaint is brake fade but even there if fade was the issue certain pads do lots better than others.
@@RadDadisRad I think the issue is less about the brake manufacturer and more about the vehicle choice. To expect any reasonably priced off the shelf brake that will fit behind a 18-20” wheel to stop that much vehicle from high speeds is pretty unrealistic.
@@byronn.2885 it’s a 22” wheel. That’s why I’m going with heavy SUV brakes. If the Rolls Royce Cullinan uses a similar brake kit that is found on the Trackhawk I think it should favor me well.
Biggest and best improvement with brakes is simple, and you don't need 550mm discs gripped by 15 piston calipers lol , quality tyres first , big or upgraded brakes are for track or show cars right ? Quality tyres and quality discs and quality (upgraded if needed for rd ) brake pads
No intention to sound disrespectful but I have never heard of Alcon. Everyone talks of Brembo, Baer, Wilwood and the like. Is Alcon a motorsports only brand?
they have been an OE supplier for many years. Of the ones you mentioned only Brembo is also an OE supplier. Aftermarket: Baer & Wilwood.
Alcon makes brakes for NASCAR too
If memory serves me correctly Alcon was the supplier for Baer back in the late 90’s. They are a very quality manufacturer with deep roots in auto racing. Worked at a shop back in the 90’s that worked with them to develop big brake kits for Audi’s and VW’s and the stopping power was insane.
I also never heard from them. But according to their site, they do some pretty big projects like the AM Valkyrie
Many of these big companys have so much going on that they don't bother advertizing to the weekend broke boyracer.
What if I told you your stock brakes had almost the exact same stopping distance as what is on any performance car? Just something that consumers really tend to forget.
They'll do that once in an emergency as they are designed to do, not over hours or even just a few minutes in some cases of heavy use, which many people also forget 🤘
Stock brakes are fine on a normal road car being driven as a normal road car, nothing more nothing kess. They are built to a price and basic safety standards - Taz.
Braking distance is tire-limited, also it isn't the single factor in deciding whether to upgrade or not. Controlling brake temperature and brake fade over many performance laps is more important.
It's not bigger is better, brakes weigh a lot. And the weigh is in the worst possible place.
Making them more efficient with air duckting is where its at.
The man is selling hammers...every problem is therefor a nail.
Exactly! If you're not running into brake fade and you have enough power to lock up your tires, bigger brakes will just make your car slower and worse.
Exactly, bigger is not better, the weak point is the grip of tyres, the brake need be big enough just to dissipate the heat, small is better, is really sad to hear a producer said the big is better.....
100% agreed velocity did a show one time about wheels rotors brakes and every time they added something they would Dyno it and the bigger rotors they kept putting on they were losing horsepower.!!!…..
So why not go for a wet braking system?
Cost, complexity, weight but really you can do whatever you like with enough time and money if the rule book you're working to allows it - Taz.
Maybe needed on the track but on the road waste of $.
If you are just driving your car on the road as it was designed for, you don't need to upgrade your brakes for a motorsport application. That is correct 😎 - Taz.
Hey guys. People don’t know but all vehicles that are built only have to just have enough safety to just pass the safety laws. So that means power brakes tyres suspension steals seatbelts ex. This is why I refuse to buy a new car because of the fact that they are just crap. Over priced and unsafe. I have always built my own cars. So I know what every part of that car came from and how safe it is. And all my cars are high powered cars. So I know if I do have a crash I will live. May not be in good shape but I hope that I will be ok. But if I was being a dick in some vehicle that I just bought I don’t think I would live. 90% of everyday vehicles are not safe for what they say they are for. But every day people can’t afford to buy a vehicle that is safe. I had to find a vehicle for my in-laws and if I had have got it wrong I would still be hearing about it. This was back in 2011. And the only vehicle that came in was the jeep grand Cherokee 3.0turbo diesel. They wanted something to tow a caravan around Australia. So I researched fora year and the jeep was the only car that came in as the best. If they made them in a duel cab then that would have been the one to get. People will go off at what I’m saying. But when you do your research and test every vehicle to suit what you’re doing you will find that the Jeep comes in every time. I use my 2011 Jeep everyday for towing and it’s now done 235,000 klms and it is still going strong. I service it every 10,000 klms and I still have not needed to change the disc rotors yet. Pads yes of course. When you maintain a vehicle properly it will not let you down. And I did not buy this new. It had 98,000 klms on it. And they did not look after it. All I had to do was put better tyres on it. Put better lights on it. And I took off the plastic pipe work for the turbo and intercooler and made stainless steel piping up. And it’s been fine. And now I have 3 jeeps and they all have been perfect for what I’m using them for. And I’m not ezey on them at all.
yeah ,yeah!
dont brake all time because yuo dont win