Want to get involved in a future episode of Spot the Pro? If you're a pro or amateur writer who'd like to submit a page, or if you're a professional writer / industry professional who'd like to be on an episode, get in touch here: www.nathangrahamdavis.com/spotthepro
Only a quarter of the way in and it's already worth the price of admission. Thomas Jane's insight contrasting the information we learn on the first pages of A1 and A2 is so useful! 🤯 Thank you so much for getting perspectives from people in different roles. It's great to see how an actor approaches a script compared to a manager or writer. Loved Mr Jane's revelation about comparing the first pages of scripts to see which one he'll read first. There's a lot riding on that first page!
Thomas and Nick were great in this. They both picked one right answer each when the others got it wrong - shows how they notice things and how useful their perspective is. Loved the actor’s perspective too
Thanks for letting me be a part of this! Such great feedback! In terms of the newspaper and books, I like your read, Nathan. For me, it was also an aesthetic choice to bring in some noir vibes and create a little bit of a retro futurist feel, which ends up playing out as the script goes on. Thanks again! Very stoked!
This series is incredibly informative in addition to being a ton of fun. I'm now going back and polishing the first page of all my scripts. Thanks so much!
Best showdown yet and as Joe mentions, as much insight as writers on writing gives us, it's really great to see what producers and actors are looking for. Everyone picks up on something different. Some really great takeaways from this, really appreciate these, Nathan!
As a veteran, I found certain aspects of C1 particularly intriguing. The sound of distant automatic weapon fire, resembling a woodpecker due to the attenuation of higher audio frequencies, was spot on. Additionally, the deliberate way the shooter prepared to take the shot perfectly aligns with how marksmanship is taught in the U.S. Army. It's clear that the writer either conducted thorough research or, like me, has firsthand experience. For me, this first page clearly depicted a character grappling with the effects of recent combat, which resonated deeply. That connection led me to disagree with the experts' guesses on this one. This set me up for another run of four correct guesses-until Thomas very convincingly led me down the garden path and convinced me to pick wrong on the fourth set of pages. He was incredibly persuasive, and I particularly enjoyed hearing his insights and the fascinating way his mind works. Thank you for continuing this series, and a special thanks to all of your guests and regulars for generously sharing their time and expertise! It might be fun in the future to bring some of your featured amateurs on as guests to see how they fare with their guesses.
You're dead on about Jason Thornton's experience. I'm gonna tell him about this comment and maybe he'll jump in and share a little more context. Interesting idea about bringing amateurs on as guests... could happen in the future, possibly. We *are* going to do something a little different while walking around at Austin Film Festival, so we'll see how that goes!
Hey man, thanks so much for this. Yeah, I am a fellow vet but not Army-I served in the USAF. That said, I was in a forward mobility Combat Comm unit out of Ramstein and worked with TACP guys, NATO troops, etc so I am definitely familiar with marksmanship techniques and the sound of gunfire even though I never saw combat (served in the Clinton years and separated on a medical so didn't get stop-lossed after 9/11). That said, I have kept in close contact with a lot of old military buddies who did go to war and have done some work at the VA, so it was very important to try to nail down the effects of PTSD. Again, really appreciate you chiming in. Means a lot and is very validating that it rang true to someone with your experience. Thanks for posting, and more importantly thanks for your service!
@@ElDuderinoBrevity - Never apologize for not serving in combat, brother. You served, and that's what counts. We all signed Patton's proverbial blank check. You never know the amount that will be filled in when that check is cashed, but every one of us without exception pays some price for our service. You roll the dice-you pay the price. I can usually spot a veteran's writing. Let's face it, we have a unique perspective that only 1% of the public shares. I'd love to read this script. Is there any way that could be arranged?
Still tinkering away with one script I started in 2016 (not the page I'm hoping to submit). Learned something else today. Thomas' point about how much stuff am I learning on the page is a brilliant insight. I was taught something similar but I'd legit forgotten about it until hearing it again here. And just on _Troppo_ final ep of S2 airs in Australia in a few hours and I gotta say, I was just a little thrown hearing Thomas' natural voice. Ted's ... more curmudgeonly. No spoilers, but I'm none the wiser as to who the guilty party is.
Good stuff. Keep up the good work. I think it proves that the quality of the writing isn’t necessarily an indication of a screenplay that will be produced. A lot of other factors involved. Also, as you showed in the fourth example, there’s a difference between the way someone might write a spec script vs. a paid assignment. Very educational.
Yeah, great writing =/= a script that's going to get produced. Not at all. Commercial viability is super important, and also, there's a luck factor... the right person has to read it at the right time. That doesn't mean it's hopeless, though. Just means it's hard! Also, it's always important to remember that we're dealing with first pages here, rather than entire scripts.
My breakdown: A2 - Not confident. But more compelling. B1 - 100% positive. C2 - 90% positive. D2 - Not confident. But feels like Devil Wears Prada which my ex sold. Lol. Feels pro, but redundant, because DWP was already a hit/classic. My perfect record has been broken. 😢😂 Another interesting one guys. Definitely not easy to guess.
I enjoyed both C1 and C2. I found the fly on the cheek symbolizes that he has focus and is trained but his emotions took over and couldn’t pull the trigger. My choice was C1.
Interesting how Homeless Dad appeared to be making a reasoned case for several of the pro scripts, only to seemingly change his mind at the last second and choose the amateur script simply because it gripped him on a gut level. There’s probably something instructive in that. Going forward with this exercise, a page that isn’t obviously desperate to blow the reader away right from the jump is going to be a pretty strong pro flag for me. Amateurs just know they can’t afford to presume anyone will read past the first page if it doesn’t immediately grab them, so I’m going to strongly suspect any leisurely starts are coming from pros.
Yeah, there's some truth to that! I think when you're an amateur who's simply struggling to get someone to read you, you've got this mentality where you feel like you HAVE to hook someone on that very first page. And while I think that's a great thing for any writer to do if it makes sense for your story, when you're a professional writer -- or even an amateur who simply has had some exposure to the industry and knows how things work -- you know that if someone's reading you, they're *at least* going to give you five or ten pages before making a judgment. Yes, that first page is your first impression, and it's very, very important, but as long as it's competent and entertaining, you can plant a hook three or five (or more) pages into the script and still be good to go.
So I always pause on the first reads just to see if I'll guess correct, put my comment and then see if I was right. So here goes. Both A1 and A2 has some technical formatting issues that kind had me stumped except, A2 took "breaking the rules" a little to far. Those opening "sequences" should have been formatted as a series of shots, no "opening sequences" we know that because it's SCENE ONE, on top of that they did do a proper scene transition (although you shouldn't be adding scene transitions to your specs), then just a few lines later did it wrong (technically) and a big thing is consistency. If you do it the same every time at least it feels motivated. So I'm going with A1 as the professional. Right or wrong A1 is the more professionally written script/one pager.
No one cares, honestly. The form really isn’t that formal. Call it sequences, a series of shots, whatever… just make sure people know what you intend. Intention and making those intentions clear are all that matter. This is, IMO, the completely wrong kind of stuff to sweat.
Yep. There are a few formatting conventions that matter... page count... keeping your dialogue centered... margins. Outside of that... it's all about whether or not you can tell a gripping, cinematic story that audiences are willing to pay for. If you're doing that from page one, no one in the industry is going to care about your format.
@EldunderinoBravity and @NGDwrites, those are very amateurish responses. lol People do care A LOT especially if it takes you out of the story, more to the point A.I. cares as a lot of production companies and "industry" readers are going in that direction to "save time". Having said that, it wasn't the point of the comment or the game here. The point is to try and choose the professional vs. the amateur and the tale tale sign more often than not is a professionally written script is not only going to look professional, but they'll know how to write Sluglines and Sequences, when those things aren't done correctly and/or there's an egregious amount of directing from the page it's going to look like an Amateur wrote it. Does that mean an exec, actor, or lit manager will pass on the project, no, but again, not the point of the game. Bottom line as someone who's read 1000s of amateur scripts and 100s of produced scripts, and received feedback myself, formatting, grammar, spelling, etc. all matter unless you're producing and directing yourself, then do what you want. "You must know the rules before you break the rules."
The first one was weird. I was sure that A2 was the pro writer (descriptions and wordage). A1 was the better script though, more plot and character information. I wasn’t sure about the second one. B1 was overly descriptive but builds the world really well. The character seems important and deeper than B2. And the father-son theme is very strong too. So by the end of their discussion I was sure B1’s the Pro one. B2 was simpler and jumps into action - very similar to A1. But it’s funny how the blocky pages that don’t use white space too well are the professionals in the first two rounds. I guess when you’re confident your scripts will be read and appreciated you stop caring about the first page stuff about blank space and easy to read etc.
Yeah, certain stories call for more description than others. Sci-fi is a big one, which is why you saw that in B-1. The reader needs to be able to see the world and/or technology. At the end of the day, as long as you do it well, it really doesn't matter! On the flipside, if you've got those big, blocky action lines and they're *not* amazing... well, yeah... your reader is probably going to groan a bit.
Incorrect. written BEFORE they were pros means no guarantee they would get reads. Maybe you're focusing on the wrong things. Managing white space doesn't really matter if you're telling a compelling story. But it's sure easier to worry about if you're not. A lot of lousy consultants have convinced people to worry about unimportant things.
@@jturman9990 what Nathan said makes more sense to me. Using white space is important since the way we format and type the page is a part of the art. But some stories call for density and it adds to the immersion. My favourite screenplays (written by extreme pros) use white space beautifully in the first few pages, whether intentional or not, I think it’s great. Especially if you’re able to pull in and immerse the reader with sparse writing. It’s almost transcendent.
@@giuoco It's a byproduct of efficient writing, not a goal. It's something non-pro consultants sell aspiring writers. Because it's something that's a lot easier and more objective than writing well. The attention and critique of white space in online discussion groups is ridiculous. It's important that a page reads well and that you want to turn pages, but that has to do with a whole lot of more important things than white space.
@@giuoco spare writing is very effective if you're a very effective and efficient writer. Most of the aspiring writer who copy Walter Hill do not know how to do it and do not understand what he was doing when he did it. For certain projects I write very minimally. The page Nathan used was very early in my career, and I overwrote more than now. I just think it's important not to miss the real lesson of the discussion. And it's absolutely not that "pros get to break the rules".
Want to get involved in a future episode of Spot the Pro? If you're a pro or amateur writer who'd like to submit a page, or if you're a professional writer / industry professional who'd like to be on an episode, get in touch here: www.nathangrahamdavis.com/spotthepro
Loved hearing Thomas Jane's thoughts. He doesn't think like a writer.
Yeah, what a treat to get that perspective!
Nathan and crew: this is hands down the best thing on screenwriting on TH-cam. Excellent concept!!! 🎉
We really appreciate that. Thank you!
Only a quarter of the way in and it's already worth the price of admission. Thomas Jane's insight contrasting the information we learn on the first pages of A1 and A2 is so useful! 🤯
Thank you so much for getting perspectives from people in different roles. It's great to see how an actor approaches a script compared to a manager or writer.
Loved Mr Jane's revelation about comparing the first pages of scripts to see which one he'll read first.
There's a lot riding on that first page!
It was just as much of a learning experience for us as it was for the people watching, I guarantee it!
Thomas and Nick were great in this. They both picked one right answer each when the others got it wrong - shows how they notice things and how useful their perspective is. Loved the actor’s perspective too
Thanks for letting me be a part of this! Such great feedback! In terms of the newspaper and books, I like your read, Nathan. For me, it was also an aesthetic choice to bring in some noir vibes and create a little bit of a retro futurist feel, which ends up playing out as the script goes on. Thanks again! Very stoked!
Thank YOU for submitting your page and being part of it!
Great page. Really good stuff. I'd love to read more if possible.
This is a fantastic video! Love every second. Thomas Jane is the 🐐
No question.
Bow season and rifle season do overlap - you can use a bow during gun season, but not the other way around (at least out here)!
Great episode!
This series is incredibly informative in addition to being a ton of fun. I'm now going back and polishing the first page of all my scripts. Thanks so much!
Hell yeah. That's awesome. Glad you're getting so much out of it!
Best showdown yet and as Joe mentions, as much insight as writers on writing gives us, it's really great to see what producers and actors are looking for. Everyone picks up on something different. Some really great takeaways from this, really appreciate these, Nathan!
We learned a ton from this, too! It's a pleasure to be doing them.
Amazing episode - TJane on a channel with less than 5k subs says a lot about the hidden gem this channel is and has been from my pov
Really appreciate that. Thank you. It's also a testament to what a generous guy Thomas is.
I guessed 2/4 this episode. All very good writers. Thank you again for the tools and inspiration.
Thanks for watching and I'm glad you're finding these inspiring!
This idea is great and working well. Keep it going!
Thank you! That's definitely the plan.
As a veteran, I found certain aspects of C1 particularly intriguing. The sound of distant automatic weapon fire, resembling a woodpecker due to the attenuation of higher audio frequencies, was spot on. Additionally, the deliberate way the shooter prepared to take the shot perfectly aligns with how marksmanship is taught in the U.S. Army. It's clear that the writer either conducted thorough research or, like me, has firsthand experience.
For me, this first page clearly depicted a character grappling with the effects of recent combat, which resonated deeply. That connection led me to disagree with the experts' guesses on this one.
This set me up for another run of four correct guesses-until Thomas very convincingly led me down the garden path and convinced me to pick wrong on the fourth set of pages.
He was incredibly persuasive, and I particularly enjoyed hearing his insights and the fascinating way his mind works.
Thank you for continuing this series, and a special thanks to all of your guests and regulars for generously sharing their time and expertise!
It might be fun in the future to bring some of your featured amateurs on as guests to see how they fare with their guesses.
You're dead on about Jason Thornton's experience. I'm gonna tell him about this comment and maybe he'll jump in and share a little more context. Interesting idea about bringing amateurs on as guests... could happen in the future, possibly. We *are* going to do something a little different while walking around at Austin Film Festival, so we'll see how that goes!
@@NGDwrites What a teaser.
Hey man, thanks so much for this. Yeah, I am a fellow vet but not Army-I served in the USAF. That said, I was in a forward mobility Combat Comm unit out of Ramstein and worked with TACP guys, NATO troops, etc so I am definitely familiar with marksmanship techniques and the sound of gunfire even though I never saw combat (served in the Clinton years and separated on a medical so didn't get stop-lossed after 9/11). That said, I have kept in close contact with a lot of old military buddies who did go to war and have done some work at the VA, so it was very important to try to nail down the effects of PTSD.
Again, really appreciate you chiming in. Means a lot and is very validating that it rang true to someone with your experience. Thanks for posting, and more importantly thanks for your service!
@@ElDuderinoBrevity - Never apologize for not serving in combat, brother. You served, and that's what counts. We all signed Patton's proverbial blank check. You never know the amount that will be filled in when that check is cashed, but every one of us without exception pays some price for our service. You roll the dice-you pay the price.
I can usually spot a veteran's writing. Let's face it, we have a unique perspective that only 1% of the public shares.
I'd love to read this script. Is there any way that could be arranged?
@@TheOnlyRealGManhey dude, sorry-just saw this. Shoot me your email address or something and I’ll get you a copy.
Love this series! Learned a lot from Thomas Jane here. Keep this going 🐐
That's the plan! Glad you're enjoying it so much, Ria. Thanks for being a part of it!
Still tinkering away with one script I started in 2016 (not the page I'm hoping to submit). Learned something else today. Thomas' point about how much stuff am I learning on the page is a brilliant insight. I was taught something similar but I'd legit forgotten about it until hearing it again here.
And just on _Troppo_ final ep of S2 airs in Australia in a few hours and I gotta say, I was just a little thrown hearing Thomas' natural voice. Ted's ... more curmudgeonly. No spoilers, but I'm none the wiser as to who the guilty party is.
All three of us thought that insight of his was fantastic and we talked about it a fair bit after we finished recording. Very, very cool.
@@NGDwrites It's that kind of ... educative thing that really gets me excited to be involved. Still crossing my fingers to get that email.
Another great episode! Thanks for hosting this, Nate!
Dude, it's 100% my pleasure getting to do these.
Another fantastic episode with great scripts! So cool to hear an actor's perspective!
Right?
Fun watch!
Thanks for checking it out!
Always learning something new.
Same!
Good stuff. Keep up the good work. I think it proves that the quality of the writing isn’t necessarily an indication of a screenplay that will be produced. A lot of other factors involved. Also, as you showed in the fourth example, there’s a difference between the way someone might write a spec script vs. a paid assignment. Very educational.
Yeah, great writing =/= a script that's going to get produced. Not at all. Commercial viability is super important, and also, there's a luck factor... the right person has to read it at the right time. That doesn't mean it's hopeless, though. Just means it's hard!
Also, it's always important to remember that we're dealing with first pages here, rather than entire scripts.
My breakdown:
A2 - Not confident. But more compelling.
B1 - 100% positive.
C2 - 90% positive.
D2 - Not confident. But feels like Devil Wears Prada which my ex sold. Lol. Feels pro, but redundant, because DWP was already a hit/classic.
My perfect record has been broken. 😢😂 Another interesting one guys. Definitely not easy to guess.
The record is broken!
@@NGDwrites 😂😂😂 Indeed. Fun while it lasted.
Really interesting to get the POV of an actor and gain some insight into how actors assess a script. Does Thomas Jane want to make another Western? 😄
Fantastic! Sadly I was a solid 0/4 for guesses!
The nice thing about this series is... that's not particularly sad! It just means the amateurs we highlighted were crushing it on the page.
I enjoyed both C1 and C2. I found the fly on the cheek symbolizes that he has focus and is trained but his emotions took over and couldn’t pull the trigger. My choice was C1.
Interesting how Homeless Dad appeared to be making a reasoned case for several of the pro scripts, only to seemingly change his mind at the last second and choose the amateur script simply because it gripped him on a gut level. There’s probably something instructive in that.
Going forward with this exercise, a page that isn’t obviously desperate to blow the reader away right from the jump is going to be a pretty strong pro flag for me. Amateurs just know they can’t afford to presume anyone will read past the first page if it doesn’t immediately grab them, so I’m going to strongly suspect any leisurely starts are coming from pros.
Yeah, there's some truth to that! I think when you're an amateur who's simply struggling to get someone to read you, you've got this mentality where you feel like you HAVE to hook someone on that very first page. And while I think that's a great thing for any writer to do if it makes sense for your story, when you're a professional writer -- or even an amateur who simply has had some exposure to the industry and knows how things work -- you know that if someone's reading you, they're *at least* going to give you five or ten pages before making a judgment.
Yes, that first page is your first impression, and it's very, very important, but as long as it's competent and entertaining, you can plant a hook three or five (or more) pages into the script and still be good to go.
So I always pause on the first reads just to see if I'll guess correct, put my comment and then see if I was right. So here goes. Both A1 and A2 has some technical formatting issues that kind had me stumped except, A2 took "breaking the rules" a little to far. Those opening "sequences" should have been formatted as a series of shots, no "opening sequences" we know that because it's SCENE ONE, on top of that they did do a proper scene transition (although you shouldn't be adding scene transitions to your specs), then just a few lines later did it wrong (technically) and a big thing is consistency. If you do it the same every time at least it feels motivated. So I'm going with A1 as the professional. Right or wrong A1 is the more professionally written script/one pager.
No one cares, honestly. The form really isn’t that formal. Call it sequences, a series of shots, whatever… just make sure people know what you intend. Intention and making those intentions clear are all that matter. This is, IMO, the completely wrong kind of stuff to sweat.
Yep. There are a few formatting conventions that matter... page count... keeping your dialogue centered... margins. Outside of that... it's all about whether or not you can tell a gripping, cinematic story that audiences are willing to pay for. If you're doing that from page one, no one in the industry is going to care about your format.
@EldunderinoBravity and @NGDwrites, those are very amateurish responses. lol People do care A LOT especially if it takes you out of the story, more to the point A.I. cares as a lot of production companies and "industry" readers are going in that direction to "save time". Having said that, it wasn't the point of the comment or the game here. The point is to try and choose the professional vs. the amateur and the tale tale sign more often than not is a professionally written script is not only going to look professional, but they'll know how to write Sluglines and Sequences, when those things aren't done correctly and/or there's an egregious amount of directing from the page it's going to look like an Amateur wrote it. Does that mean an exec, actor, or lit manager will pass on the project, no, but again, not the point of the game. Bottom line as someone who's read 1000s of amateur scripts and 100s of produced scripts, and received feedback myself, formatting, grammar, spelling, etc. all matter unless you're producing and directing yourself, then do what you want. "You must know the rules before you break the rules."
@@DustinWQ 😂😂😂… okay.
@@DustinWQ lemme guess, next you’re gonna come for “we see!”
The first one was weird. I was sure that A2 was the pro writer (descriptions and wordage). A1 was the better script though, more plot and character information.
I wasn’t sure about the second one. B1 was overly descriptive but builds the world really well. The character seems important and deeper than B2. And the father-son theme is very strong too. So by the end of their discussion I was sure B1’s the Pro one.
B2 was simpler and jumps into action - very similar to A1.
But it’s funny how the blocky pages that don’t use white space too well are the professionals in the first two rounds. I guess when you’re confident your scripts will be read and appreciated you stop caring about the first page stuff about blank space and easy to read etc.
Yeah, certain stories call for more description than others. Sci-fi is a big one, which is why you saw that in B-1. The reader needs to be able to see the world and/or technology. At the end of the day, as long as you do it well, it really doesn't matter! On the flipside, if you've got those big, blocky action lines and they're *not* amazing... well, yeah... your reader is probably going to groan a bit.
Incorrect. written BEFORE they were pros means no guarantee they would get reads. Maybe you're focusing on the wrong things. Managing white space doesn't really matter if you're telling a compelling story. But it's sure easier to worry about if you're not. A lot of lousy consultants have convinced people to worry about unimportant things.
@@jturman9990 what Nathan said makes more sense to me. Using white space is important since the way we format and type the page is a part of the art. But some stories call for density and it adds to the immersion. My favourite screenplays (written by extreme pros) use white space beautifully in the first few pages, whether intentional or not, I think it’s great. Especially if you’re able to pull in and immerse the reader with sparse writing. It’s almost transcendent.
@@giuoco It's a byproduct of efficient writing, not a goal. It's something non-pro consultants sell aspiring writers. Because it's something that's a lot easier and more objective than writing well. The attention and critique of white space in online discussion groups is ridiculous. It's important that a page reads well and that you want to turn pages, but that has to do with a whole lot of more important things than white space.
@@giuoco spare writing is very effective if you're a very effective and efficient writer. Most of the aspiring writer who copy Walter Hill do not know how to do it and do not understand what he was doing when he did it. For certain projects I write very minimally. The page Nathan used was very early in my career, and I overwrote more than now. I just think it's important not to miss the real lesson of the discussion. And it's absolutely not that "pros get to break the rules".