TOYOTARO IS A VEGETARD WITH A CHIP ON HIS SHOULDER, YOU CAN FIND MANY SCENES WHERE TOYOTARO COPIES FROM DBZ AND THEN HAVE VEGETA DOES VERSIONS OF THOSE SCENES WHILE GOKU RENENACTS ALL OF VEGETA BAD SCENES LIKE WHEN VEGETA WAS ON THE GROUND ON NAMEK AFTER FRIEZA BEAT HIM UP AND GOKU JUST ARRIVED FROM THE HEALING POD, THIS IS MIRRORED AGAINST MORO WHEN VGETA LEARNS INSTANT TRANSMISSION THEN MAGICALLY FORGETS... GRANOLA ARC, HE LITERALLY RIPPED OFF SSJ 3 GOKU VS KID BUU FOR VEGETA VS GRANOLA, THEN LATER ON HE HAS WHIS TELLING GOKU WHAT GOKU TOLD GOHAN IN THE HYPERBOLIC TIME CHAMBER IN THE CELL ARC WORD FOR WORD.
Team four stars take on DBZ basically said what the audience thought for western society at least. Super IS terrible writing. Super is just promotional crap. It doesn't feel like it is part of Dragonball.
Kind of funny how people hated GT for having Goku be a man in a child's body, and Super Goku is pretty much Goku being a child in a man's body. It almost seems purposeful.
Old Goku had wisdom and had a good balance between his humour and when he need to get serious. The thing that bugs me about as super Goku is how child like and naive they portray him at times.
I think it's because of the new direction DBS was doing when it first premiered. They tone down the hardcore violence and add too much unnecessary humor. Like you said about the good balance for Goku, they changed it
Super goku is like if someone didn’t watch dragon ball but only knows of the anime is writing the character, because they probably seen a clip or two of goku being goofy and they went with it.
Son Goku has suffered probably the biggest character assassination in history. He went from a complete martial artist at the end of the Cell Games to a complete joke in super...the authors made him forget all of the lessons he has learned and make all the stupidest mistakes that he could make. it is such a shame, after watching him develop over all those years, seeing him regress so much.
Maybe you haven’t read when MUI Goku went up against Moro. Showed beautiful martial arts while remaining completely focused and serious. Zen like. Possibly the best version of Goku I ever seen .
the problem is all the times before he is not the same. It just kills the immersion its bad writing, how can he be the best goku then? @@realkingrav2265
A big issue I had with Super is this whole idea of Goku having poor guard. Even Kid Goku was able to sense danger before seeing it. There are instances of this all before learning ki control with Kami and Popo.
@@dususbakahyahskahwbwm9113yeah that was a very wrong call to decide to trust his best buddy. I think vegeta at that point was one of the last person he expect that from.
yeah, it's true that in Dragon Ball Super, there's a bit more emphasis on Goku's lack of guard compared to his younger self. It's a change in his character that some fans have noticed and had mixed feelings about.
You realize that’s why he got UI though. Plus once you’ve defeated all the people Goku has throughout the years and have been training with deities it’s likely you gain some sort of an ego.
In DBS Super Hero, even with Toriyama writing the script of the film, in the scene on Beerus' planet, Goku is confused by seeing Vegeta meditating, even though Goku should be absolutely aware of what meditating is
@@sixfromtokyo Especially when bro just describe to the whole squad why Krillin and Vegeta were basically pawns that he turned into Frauds in order to set Gohan Up to defeat Cell
@@ferane287 Ngl this is kinda in character for DBZ Goku 😂 Even though Gohan and he were the last to enter originally and didn't reenter, he was confident that only Gohan could defeat Cell. Bro that's so savage 😂 I miss this Goku
haha, yeah, the influence of TFS Goku on Dragon Ball Super Goku is quite noticeable. It's funny how a parody version can sometimes shape our perception of a character.
I believe one of the reasons ppl don't complain that much about this new Goku is cuz they didn't watch the original DBZ and the only thing they know about Goku is that he's a happy enthusiastic dude, but they don't know that when shit gets serious Goku don't play around funny shit.
People don’t complain about Super Goku because that’s who Goku always was. It’s the localization that made him to be Japanese He Man when that’s not how he’s supposed to be.
@@Bornagainvillain ^Bro hasn't watched DB or dbz 😭😭stop it bro, even in the Japanese version and the original MANGA Goku wasn't as stupid as he is in Super, where he forgot pivotal parts of the plan, the mafuba seal and senzu beans which led to Trunks future being erased 😂
yeah, some people who are more familiar with Dragon Ball Super might not have seen Goku's serious side from the original DBZ. They might only know him as a happy and enthusiastic character, but in serious situations, Goku doesn't mess around.
Old Goku was lowkey a ruthless man when you didn't listen to his warning. When he left Nappa paralyzed from the waist down I knew he had that dawg in him Super Goku doesn't compare with the old Goku, that Kaioken scene went hard That was one of Goku's hardest moments in DBZ, Super really regressed Goku's character entirely, they turned Goku in a megalomaniac with an addiction to battle
Ultra Instinct Goku is basically just serious Z Goku, and that’s a reason I think why that form is so well received. Goku has one of the most underrated character arcs in all of anime from Dragon Ball to the end of Z.
No. Ultra instinct Goku is Goku free from Z, free ftom bs ssj forms that only multiply the powerelrvel and fo nothing else. Finally, he can pursue martial arts again instead of pursuing "next ssj". Also, dub Goku is fake.
@@mrgotham3685 Yes but Verbatum Goku most people think off is "I am the hope of the universe" Goku. Also, Gokus action in cell games felt forced. Like Goku had to give way to Gohan so Gohan gets the protagonist treatment. It felt uncharacteristic of Goku. Also, lots of people ignore the fact that Goku is also prideful and arrogant. Had Goku been in same place as Vegeta when he fought semiperfect cell, Goku would have done same probably. Goku isnt a "Japanese superman". people need to get used to that.
@@abhabh6896 It didn’t tho, Goku during and after the cell saga in Z was looking for someone to take the mantle of protector away from him because he knew he wouldn’t be around forever. He started with Gohan, then wanted Gotenks to be the one to finish Buu, and even still to this day he pushes Gohan to become stronger although it’s unclear if it’s still for the same reason. For his character’s sake it definitely should be.
I miss the old Goku. The mature Goku. The humble Goku, the Goku who cared about fighting Goku. I hate the new Goku, the childish and dumb Goku, the egotisitcal Goku, the obessed with fighting Goku
yeah, the old Goku had a different vibe, more mature and humble. The new Goku is definitely more childish and obsessed with fighting. It's a different take on the character for sure.
It was a very poor attempt, like many things in the movie and subsequent Super retelling, to basically redo as much of the Frieza Saga as they could manage, hence Goku not just killing Frieza.
Goku was TAUGHT not to kill people in Majunior saga. He will always try not to kill people. Also, he isnt superman, he doesnt judge Furiza, he just wants Frieza to stop making trouble for him.
@@abhabh6896 Goku also learned against Frieza that some people never change and should be killed, hence Goku killing Frieza on Earth after Yardrat and then wanted Gohan to kill Cell
Child Goku had an ego, but he also learned from Mr. Popo to never underestimate his opponents, and he never showed that side during the Z arc because he learned his lesson. He suffered from Flanderization, unfortunately. OG Adult Goku had some childish elements to him but they were very minor and were just a few charming quirks to his character, but he behaved like an adult where it counted. In Super he seems like a manchild now, he never takes anything seriously and acts like a teenager all the time like everything is just a big game to him, even though people are dying he doesn't take the situation seriously! It's frustrating.
GT has good continuations of character development. Even though Goku got turned into a kid he acts accordingly. It's as the saying goes GT Goku has a child body but Super Goku has the mind of a child.
@@zelohendricks51 By the time of RoF or the U6 Saga I'd say so. Base GT Goku has some feats that put him , if not on the same level, then a least in the same conversation as end of BoG Goku when it comes to power.
@matthewbreytenbach4483 Goku himself says even Vegito would be no match for Beerus yet he was confident enough to fight Beerus as a SSG. Which means it's leagues above anything Z Vegito could put out (ie the strongest character in Z). So I'd say no Blue isn't needed at all to slap all of Z. And sorry but GT scales far below Super. No shade but thats the truth
@@zelohendricks51 Oh yeah no, I agree. That's why I say end of BoG. Goku started that movie/arc a bit stronger than he was at the end of the Buu saga, and gained at _least_ a five hundred fold permanent increase to his abilities by the end. GT Goku was almost fifteen years older and spent most of that time training Uub, becoming extremely powerful in his own right. To the point where he could casually take on two post-Buu Saga Super Saiyans at the same time in base. In a body that he considered too weak to sustain some of his abilities (at least in the dub) Most likely though Super Goku was a decent amount stronger at the end of BoG (though a good deal less experienced) and eclipsed anything GT Goku could bring to the table, SS4 included, the moment he learned how to tap into God Ki on his own. The mention of RoF is because I think that would be about the cutoff point where Super Goku is no longer even remotely comparable. U6 is a bit of an absurd benefit-of-the-doubt highball since I don't really have a way to tell exactly how Baby, Super 17 or Omega Shenron compare to suppressed Beerus or Golden Frieza.
He used to be able to read minds and souls. Imagine if he did that with the enemies he traded blows with; he'd figure out some of the deepest motives they were hiding
While reviewing the Saiyan saga, some of my favorite moments that reaaaally took me back and made me remember why Goku was one of my favorite characters of all time (and why Super was a significant downgrade for me) 1 When propositioned by vegeta to become his second in command, Goku responds "No thanks. besides, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of job security" Hearing Goku talk about something as adult as job security, idk, it just really got me. This felt like a down to earth GUY. Just some guy who happens to have enormous power and abilities but a real person nonetheless. 2) When he talks to Gohan and Krillin and convinces them to leave. He points out to Gohan how Chi Chi must be worried about him and even asks Gohan to "Give her a hug for me" It's so wholesome and family oriented and implies they have a healthy, happy family dynamic that's existed all this time. Even later Z seems to forget about portraying Goku as someone who can have actual familial affection outside of pride for his son's power. 3) He purposely incapacitates Nappa instead of murdering him (this has remained fairly consistent at least) 4) His pep talk to Gohan is incredibly kind, insightful and finishes with him reaching out, again to show physical affection for his child (vegeta knee smashes him in the gut to interrupt. Which, my God Saiyan Saga vegeta is the most fun villain in DBZ. Guy absolutely delights in being the biggest heel imagineable) Seeing Goku demonstrate himself to be THIS well rounded of an adult human being...his relatability was off the charts.
Speaking of the Saiyan Saga, there’s an actual fan project of said arc, where these fans remixes that entire arc, with the Bruce Faulconer score. With some new remixes added.
Vegeta was and still is my favourite character. I always found him far more relatable. He gets beaten. Frustrated. Cries. Has massive growth even in super. They doing Vegeta well imo
@@bacongod5759 Absolutely he earned it. But, Vegeta had other victories to look upon. His growth as a person is awesome. He is technically about as strong as, If not just below Goku. He’s accepted that Goku is in fact just a supreme well of power. Hea sacrificed himself and attained the power he wanted through actual grit. If I can be so bold though, I actually liked GT a LOT. Vegeta also shows incredible growth in that series. And the art direction was phenomenally done.
Nah he’s pretty boring and made some pretty dumb decisions, I didn’t like cell games goku it just wasn’t like him at all. Super Goku is more like it. Totally reminds me of a Goku who defeated a threat and can freely going around fighting and testing his limits. I’m so glad I wasn’t brainwashed by a “Japanese super man” I got my own perception of him from watching DB all the way to super. DBZ fans often don’t have any good arguments it’s always the nostalgia blinding them and them brining up the most smallest none rememberable moments about something goku says or does one future that hasn’t even affected the franchise lmao.
@@Not_obligated2care You had me for a second until you started praising super Goku I’m ngl. Bait wasn’t great but it was still a fun read lol thanks for the chuckle
In my personal opinion, I think they based Goku’s writing in Super and every other character’s writing in Super on how some fans perceive the characters rather than how the characters were originally established
I miss when Goku was genuinely mature and understanding towards others. I feel like while he definitely isn’t portrayed totally negative, you can definitely see how super turned him into a more goofy and dumb version of himself as compared to Z. It’s hard to explain, but I’m sure y’all understand what I mean when I say there’s a difference between Goku in Z and Goku in DBS
yeah, there's definitely a difference in Goku's portrayal between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super. In Super, he can come across as more goofy and less mature compared to his Z counterpart. It's a subtle shift in his character, but it's something that fans have noticed.
I dont miss the time when Goku was an offbrand superman. I miss the time when I enjoyed seeing Goku fight.... then Z came and this cool kid was replaced by a screaming whiny toddler who doesnt know how to throw a punch.
Tbh even if that were true, TFS had no way of knowing. They were making the same funny s*@tposts everyone else makes. Toriyama made the mistake in copying a parody.
I don’t think Toriyama modeled it after DBZA, as he always had the opinion that he wanted Goku to be selfish and only care about fighting. I think it was pressure from his publishers that made him not written like that in the Dragon Ball Manga. But with Super he was given complete creative control, so we finally got to see Toriyama unrestricted and it was a disaster to behold. What I will say about DBZA, as entertaining and funny as it is, I hate the fact that people have watched it and view it as a replacement to the original DBZ. They’ll say “It’s better! They fix the plotholes! The characters are written better!” In believing that they also convince themselves that Goku is this stupid hick that only gives a shit about fighting and nothing else. Even at the cost of his own friends and family. And people glaze DBZA and Super anyways. It’s just one of those weird situations where what’s new and popular is more publicly recognized and given more excuses when criticized. Ultimately DB and DBZ remains better to people who have read the manga or watched the original Japanese version of the anime.
Whenever i watch slower videos like these i always zone out so that wake up text may genuinely be one of the most genius things I've ever seen in aa youtube video
Super makes me look at GT in a much better light. It has it's flaws but it's short enough to not outlive it's welcome and Goku's character from Z to GT remains more or less consistent even if he was physically turned into a child. Whereas Goku in Super is still an adult but mentally, it's like he never left Mt. Pauzu.
Yea you can just tell by the way he acts in GT that he is a seasoned veteran who knows what hes doing and when to take things seriously. Just look at Goku when he kills baby. ZERO hesitation. No playing around. No mercy. He eliminates a threat and gets the job done. Thats something youll never see from Goku in Super and I really miss that.
@@pinstripecool34Let go of Raditz tail when he's already familiar with people duping him to save their skins (Mercenary Tao) Thought Bubbles was King Kai despite being given clear instructions of who King Kai is Thought it was night time in outer space Needs Piccolo to tell him to remember what Trunks said Didn't take the heart virus medicine when his symptoms started showing and told no one Gives a Senzu Bean to Cell Didn't realize Gohan didn't like fighting and needs Piccolo to tell him this Had to ask Gohan whether Videl was a girl or not Didn't kill Majin Buu when he later states he could have Throws the Potara at Gohan instead of just teleporting and handing it to him, as he does with Vegeta Crushes and uses the Potara earrings when Kabito Kai provies replacements. He later regrets this and says Potara would have finished Buu Either you didn't watch DBZ or you have an obvious double standard and that's sad.
Yeah fair point, when Whis first said that Goku was over confident and letting his guard down i just accepted it like it was always the case. But yeah, that never was the case in Z
@@Flex_seal Typo. Cell SagaGoku would never quit a fight. Lots of Gokus actions in Z felt very forced, in order to make Gohan get the spotlight... Him quitting the fight was just a BS reason to for writers to give Gohan that fight.... but watching Goku fight feels like a reward, watching Gohan fight feels like a punishment. As someone who used to watch kid Goku fight... watching kid Gohan fight is ughhh.... I just cant take it....
It was actually for shadowed, many times throughout the series. Goku even admitted he likely wouldn't be able to beat Cell. He's always had faith in Gohan due to his hidden power, and even in the chamber, he saw glimpses of it and pinned his hope on that power being enough to beat Cell. The only reason he did step down is because his best shit failed, he also didn't realize Gohan didn't have his killer edge. It was pretty good writing if you think about it, otherwise it would have been another boring win. Also, in the end the goku stans won out, they needed Gohan to death and made goku kill every villian yay Goku stans. Now the series is dead af
Goku was the actual greatest martial artist in the universe and then Super happens, its very upsetting seeing the regression and I'm happy someone noticed
Ss3 Goku still IS the greatest martial artist in the universe. Beerus, is a god. Frieza, had to train to surpass him. Zamasu stole goku’s body, Jiren is from another universe. Granola and Gas had to wish, and arguably so did Moro. Broly was also weak until he fought goku.
Dragon Ball: A Child in a Child’s Body Dragon Ball Z: An Adult in an Adults Body Dragon Ball GT: An Adult in a Child’s Body Dragon Ball Super: A Child in an Adults Body
I hate the retcons and lessons goku's forgotten, it just unnecessarily removes the growth he's had and makes him more idiotic for no reason. Especially in the manga like literally it was established goku relaxes which allows him to utilize his full power but suddenly he doesn't do that and Vegeta's the first one to figure that out when they were both blatantly told about it during the Resurrection F arc.
You see, if they had the balls and made Goten and Trunks the protagonist of Super with Gohan being a more guidance oriented figure, these flaws (for Goten) would be perfectly fine. But na, I am convinced that Akira doesn't care all that much like he use to and the rest of the writers don't understand the spirit of Dragon Ball.
I really hate that Gohan literally thinks Goku and Vegeta will always be around when he saw them die several times. Hell, Goku was dead for most of Gohans life and even they say they are getting older. Why would he focus on studies if he knows the universe likes popping out galaxy busters recently now that Frieza isn’t going around killing possible challenges to his rule when they are little
I don't think Toriyama ever cared. He's a comedy writer that got talked into writing an action series by his editors, then spent nearly the entire time being hounded and heavily influenced by said editors. I don't think he ever wanted to write something as serious as Z, it was just the best business decision.
@@MisterCynic18 yeah it was tough for the last year to be critical of his work. But it was clearly just a job to him. He didnt really care or understand what made DB sucessful.
The real sad thing is that it's not only Goku, so many characters in Super feel like they have either regressed or are stuck in an eternal cycle of the same story and lessons over and over again. - Vegeta spends every other arc overcoming his past and sins, and admitting that Goku is better in some aspects and going his own ways just to regress right back to "Grrr my pride, I wish I was a Carot" in the next arc. - Gohan learns that you can be a scholar but keep training to protect your loved ones for the 100th time, then disappears again for the next 2 arcs and comes back all rusty. - Future Trunks tried to solve everything on his own and with pure power alone again. - Trunks and Goten have been stuck as kids for the occasional Gotenks slap stick for the past 30 years. - Krillin and the other humans keep jumping between retiring as fighters and coming back every other arc. - Beerus and Whis keep getting stronger every other arc, and every time they show a hint of interest in something or that it could have consequences, they go back to "mmmm food". It's pretty obvious Toyotarou or whoever writes this shit either doesn't really know what to do with the characters and/or that they are afraid to break the stalemate that Dragonball Super ultimately has set itself into with keeping it withing the end of Z. Super Hero was so good because it finally gave some long overdue justice to Gohan, Piccolo, and to a lesser extend Goten, Trunks, Krillin and so on. I hope they finally go beyond Z after this arc, so we don't have to push the reset button after every other arc. GT has many flaws, but I do think one thing it did pretty well was writing continuation of the characters. Goku enjoyed live and seeing Pan grow up, knowing that most things couldn't phase him anymore, but he would become 100% serious the moment he needed to. Vegeta became a family man on earth, ready to defend it with his life if need be. Goten and Trunks actually grew up and do adult shit. Piccolo embraces his role as a mentor and guardian. The list goes on. Super has potential, but they are either afraid to or don't know how to use it.
The only reason why Toriyama continued making Dragon Ball content was mainly because he didn't want Dragon Ball Evolution to be the last piece of Dragon Ball media ever made, and it shows.
I'd hardly call Super Hero justice for Gohan. Even if we discount the anime, last time in Resurrection F Gohan got beat down by Frieza, and then learned that hey...he should probably keep training just in case Goku and Vegeta aren't around to handle things. Flash forward to Super Hero, and Gohan actually says something to the effect of "why train when Goku and Vegeta can handle any villains?" Toriyama doesn't give two shits about Gohan anymore, and it shows with how he just never develops as a character. Then of course in order to win, what does Gohan get? A random power up from out of nowhere which is literally just a meme that people made to make fun of the idea of them recycling the idea of SSJ2 Gohan again because of how creatively bankrupt Dragonball is at this point. So what, Gohan has to learn again to actually be responsible? Except, no, not really, because actually he doesn't have to train and he'll just get saved by a convenient powerup with no repercussions for his mistakes. Meanwhile, in a movie literally titled "Super Hero," Gohan's SUPER HERO IDENTITY never shows up! How can that even be, it's the most obvious connection. Speaking of the title, Toriyama literally points out how weird it is to call it "Dragonball Super Super Hero," but I guess nobody wanted to tell a legendary mangaka like him that "hey wait...that sounds kinda dumb."
I didn't say this in the intro but this isn't supposed to be like Super In-depth or anything the point is Goku is different and it doesn't take a genius to figure it out.
The only way they could've made the "Goku gets caught off guard" moment from resurrection F be more believable is if they had Sorbet create a diversion so Freeza could land a Death beam or something. It would've been a little more justifiable, but it would go against Mr. Popo's lesson to Goku.
The writers of Dragonball Z Resurrection F should have had Goku blocking the laser from Sorbet. Only to be caught off guard by Freeza's putting nearly all his energy in it.
@@sixfromtokyo Thank you. I'll follow up with Freeza still having enough energy to keep his weird shallow golden form, tank a beating from SSB Vegeta and destroy Earth.
I feel like some writer did this on purpose to please those people who don't like how strong Goku has become. Everyone knows this scene is straight up awful and you have individuals use this scene for debates and say shit like "Goku can't handle lasers, SSJ Blue is weak, etc" Well, at least the anime version is somewhat alright
I'm glad that the dragon ball fanbase is finally realizing that Goku regressed significantly as a character once DBS started because a couple of years back, you would have morons telling you otherwise and saying he was always like this
I'm really glad about it too, back then people were just riding the hype wave of DBS and would literally not listen to any criticism about it all. Now that the hype has gone down people are starting to realize how awful some of the choices were, the most unforgivable is Goku's regression and Vegeta's is arguably worse--Vegeta is like some weird in-between of his Android saga and Buu saga self. Though, if we're keeping it a buck, pretty much EVERYONE was regressed in DBS in some shape which is legitimately FUNNY to me. Dragon ball GT is bad, but at least the characters felt IN CHARACTER. Goku and Vegeta behave how we'd expect their more mature selves to be. Kinda crazy how Gok physically became a child in GT and mentally became a child in DBS I'd almost call it clever but we all know the writers aren't capable of being that clever.
@tristysstuff6664 DBGT and DBS are more similar than people think. Both shows have good ideas, but they are not executed properly. The big difference for me is that I find DBGT to be boring, but DBS makes me angry. I slightly prefer DBS over DBGT because the DBS movies have been, for the most part, pretty good
@@jcg7609 I feel the same way about the shows tbh, but I generally prefer DBGT over DBS despite DBS having better moments imo because I can't get over how much they've butchered some characters in DBS and honestly DBS just doesn't... FEEL like dragon ball if that makes sense? DBGT at least feels like a sequel, but DBS just feels off to me...I'd have to guess cuz of that art style? Totally Not Mark's video about the day DB died kinda explains some of my thoughts about this
@@jcg7609 Yes. Both GT and Super have really good ideas and moments and really shitty ideas and moments. It's really only Dragonball and Z that were nearly flawless.
@tristysstuff6664 I completely understand where you're coming from. I think the biggest problem with DBS is that it should have started after the end of Z and have Oob be the main protagonist with Goku as his mentor. By the end of the cell arc, Goku is a fully realized character with very few flaws, so he doesn't serve the role of a protagonist very well, so having serve the roll of a mentor with a new protagonist should have been the way to go.
Is it me or does Super Goku feel like the TFS rendition of Goku and is what people think Goku's character is but is far from what he was during Dragon Ball and Z and heck even GT
You nailed Z Goku in comparison to Super Goku. Everything he learned from DB through Z has been completely neglected in Super and it's appalling. I thank you very kindly for this video. Also, Goku giving Cell the Senzu Bean saved the universe, as Goku knows that both Vegeta and Frieza would destroy the planet if they were backed into a corner. He gave Cell the sb not only to protect Gohan's pride as a warrior, but to save what he holds dear to him. He felt that Gohan had a power within him stronger than himself. He knew Gohan would get the job done. Him being the Master Martial Artist, he would know how to handle situations outside of just the battle, but the war in it's entirety. In Dragon Ball: He gave Piccolo a SB because of he died, Kami would die and, the DBs would be rendered useless.
Goku knew the moment Cell got pissed off, he would've tried to destroy the planet, unfortunately, he tried to do that when Goku's plan succeeded and Gohan became far stronger than Cell.
"He gave Cell the sb not only to protect Gohan's pride as a warrior, but to save what he holds dear to him. He felt that Gohan had a power within him stronger than himself. He knew Gohan would get the job done." But Goku still needlessly assisted an enemy and thus risked the world for no good reason. Had Cell subsequently just killed Gohan rather than try to anger him, the world would've been screwed. That's why Goku giving Moro a senzu bean isn't out of character. Stupid yes, but not out of character.
I prefer to think Goku as an "Iron Man" sort of figure in the dub. Some of his selfish qualities show sure, but he's ultimately a hero that protects the world and has that as his top priority when the chips are down.
@@dangerousdays2052Bro I said I liked the Superman Goku, not that he was better than Canon Goku. That’s a completely different sentence that I never made. You acting like this is twitter. It goes like this. Canon Goku >>>>>>>>> “Hope of The Universe” Goku >> Trash >>>> Brain-Dead “Super” Goku
To bring up another point regarding Goku’s development regarding who he chooses to spare, he doesn’t even attempt to spare Yakon, he just straight up kills him, so it wouldn’t make sense for Goku to spare Moro.
Goku didnt spare Moror. He gave him the senzu because he knew Merus and others fought him before. He wnated to kill Moror at full power and he wanted to show off (yes, Goku has pride and arrogance too, anyone who watched OGDB knows this).
@@abhabh6896don’t say this, six nit picked a lot of Super and Z to make his points. Super and Z goku are the same character, people are just too ignorant and blinded by nostalgia
Let’s not forget one of our very first shots of Goku in Dragon Ball was Goku literally getting shot multiple times by Bulma, and the bullets bouncing off…
Goku has soooo many villains into Z-Fighterz: Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Piccolo, Vegeta, etc. He’s sees the best in people so that pushes him to try to redeem others - not a bad trait in my mind.
Every time I revisit Z especially the first 3 Z Era Sagas, I say the same thing. back when I was a kid watching Dragon Ball on Toonami back in the early 00's, Goku WAS my favorite character.. as an adult however he's just an aggravating disgrace during 90% of Super. Vegeta took his original place imo.
For all of GT's faults I did like that Goku was carefree and childish at times, but once things got serious the martial arts master came out and he took things seriously depending on the threat.
I always feel so mixed when I think about toriyama. On the one hand, he did a great job writing dbz. On the other hand, I see interviews and think, "does this guy even see what he writes". For example the whole mental training thing from super hero. In one interview Ive read he said goku turning super saiyan wasnt heroic in the slightest and because of his lust for battle. It just makes no sense sometimes
As I recall, Toriyama mentions that he writes by the seat of his pants. If you look at a lot of Dragon Ball from Namek to Buu, you can see a number of points where the plot gets rocky, but still largely works on the whole. But after all this time and Toriyama even admitting that he's forgotten aspects of Dragon Ball in the past, such as Launch or even the title of Dragon Ball Super itself, I think it's clear that writing by the seat of his pants doesn't always work for the best anymore.
Ive also recently read that, that Goku turning SS wasnt about the emotions of everything Freiza has done but just him loving fighting and reached a peak. That and also him being dumb is apparently on type for what Toriyama should be
GT Goku is the best continuation of Goku's growth. He turned into a kid again and was humbled, which forced him to work his way back up and be less careless. In Super, Goku is gotten cocky and careless, and the T.o.P is a great example of this. Picking Frieza has a companion, instilling the idea of wiping out the defeated universe to Zeno. Then the whole Moro thing...ugh.
I honestly think the whole point of his character arc in Super is to make his character arc in GT make more sense. GT may not be canon- but there is a very real chance that Toriyama cherry picks GT to make certain pieces, forms, characters and themes canon. A great example of this is Broly.
@@omnis9924I don't think that's the case. It was more likely to give Goku a shonen protagonist progression again, because GT just flows better with Z Goku. Goku probably loved that Pan, Trunks, and [almost] Goten were going to find the Black Star Balls, because his wanting to pass the torch could be furthered in them, and for the most part he didn't even go Super Saiyan until he was getting they were getting pressed by General Rilldo, doing a lot of good at once by maintaining SSJ's prestige, showing Rilldo's power in comparison, and Goku's willing to take appropriate action when the time calls for it. It follows how Goku acts throughout the latter parts of Z. Goku in Super seems to have NO intention on passing the torch and has more emphasis on his selfish battle-lust and getting stronger, while making him convienently stupid when the plot needs it like with the seal, DESPITE HIM BEING THE ONE TO MAKE THE PLAN IN THE FIRST PLACE
Goku has always been a goofy and carefree guy. That’s part of his personality. It’s different when fighting and danger is imvolved. There he is more about his wits. Even GT Goku wasn’t so dumb when I think about it.
@@lapplandkun9273GT Goku really felt like a combination between og db Goku and dbz Goku with his love of food and carefree nature outside battle but smart (with the exception the of the super 17 arc) and serious nature inside battle
yeah, Goku has always had a carefree and goofy side to his personality, but he knows how to get serious when it comes to fighting and dangerous situations. Even in GT, he showed more intelligence than some may give him credit for. It's all about finding that balance between his playful nature and his fighting prowess.
@ferrucciocaracciuolo8139 He used more ki against Super 17 than we've seen him use in awhile. I wouldn't call that smart and I've never seen Super Goku make a mistake that blatant. Just look at how he figured Hit out
Imagine Boruto ends, After Boruto they focus on Naruto again and then you hear someone say "I miss when Naruto was just Borutos dad", except DBZs Boruto doesnt even want to be a ninja, he wants to study grass. Yet him whining about fighting was the focal point of the entire plot of Boruto. Good riddance. Finally its back to being Gokus show.
THANK YOU SIX! I have been telling people who support DBS since it's the series' inception that the aspect of DBS Goku's character inconsistency is a tremendous plot-hole that contradicts the DB & DBZ character developments of Goku. I could give countless examples of other DBS plot-holes and other character development contradictions, but then this comment would end up becoming a Wall-Of-Text~ In closing, I respect your willingness to call out these story-line errors created from Toyotaro and Akira Toriyama. The Modern Dragon Ball Community needs more people like yourself who are not afraid to call out the wrong-doings of the modern Dragon Ball franchise creators!
Absolute facts, Six. Another reason Goku spares his opponents is because he's seen that some people can make profound changes in their lives for the better when given a second chance. People like Piccolo, Vegeta and even Buu, who have become great allies and friends from being given a second chance to see the error in their ways to find a greater purpose
Imo the better solution would be to retire Goku all together as was originally intended. The reason his recent characterization is so odd is because Goku has long since fulfilled his heros journey and completed his character arc. Instead of giving Goku a respectful send off and allowing Gohan and the next generation to step up, theyve just reset and recycled Goku time and time again, making it feel like hes regressed. Its time for Goku to take the back seat in the "Master" role and let new heroes take the spotlight.
I will say ultimately retired would say use him sporadically. But yeah they really should give the other characters more time To have the spotlight and arks.
youre completely right about the over confidence thing. Another thing that people do not mention is when Beerus first arrives on King Kais planet, Goku with his new inflated ego, wrongly thinks that he is way stronger than Beerus and even offers to take it down to ssj2 to fight him. He underestimated Beerus because of his size which is literally something he lectured Vegeta and others about in the Buu arc when they faced Kid Buu. Even if Goku actually thought he was stronger, he would never say it out loud or gloat about it.
Finally, someone put the word, excellent video, Im 37 years old and I do miss the old Goku as well, the New one saddly embody the absence of tension or any good plot in DBS, it's all just for fun And so is this"Goku". Sad...
Old Goku: a general/veteran of 1000 battles with a great sense of responsibility and maturity, yet still kind and a little goofy when appropriate. New Goku: idiot who feels like he was back when he first met Chichi, not quite Bulma but he's been pushing it there, and goofing off in the most wrong of times.
Once to twice a week i think about DBZ Goku. I missed how he was silly yet mature, oblivious to somethings but at least know what the fuck a kiss is (DBS). The speech he gave vegeta before fusing into vegito, all of the dialogue between him n Frieza on namek. Fast forward to the last Dragonball movie they made goku ask Vegeta what he was doing when vegeta was FUCKING MEDITATING WHEN WE SEEN GOKU MEDITATE COUNTLESS TIMES
I'm glad we have fan mangas that portrait a more mature goku while having that fun part he always had and showing more of the other Z warriors and not just make it like the show of goku and vegeta like Dbs does.
the whole journey of Z and dragon ball was to see goku grow as a character but fundamentally in his core he never changes. In super its like they reverted what he was like to pre cell arc or even pre frieza arc. all his battles, his triumphs and losses seem to have just been for nothing. I dont know how the writers or anime producers can lose touch of what they build in goku so easily but this is probably one of my biggest reasons as to why super cant match dragon ball Z or why things need to change. I mean the moro arc was basically the cell arc
Goku in Z: Matured, compeleted character, a bit smarter, and ready to be a Master Goku GT: Literally reached GODHOOD GOku in Super: Dumb as a bag of sand, back to a student, DON'T KNOW WHAT A KISS IS....
But you see how it's so easy to see this like you don't need to be a super critic to figure this out. Normal everyday fans figured this out but Toei and Toyotaro can't see it.
I miss the old goku, the power pole goku the dragon soul goku, set on his goals goku, I hate the new goku, the straight up fool goku, the super blue goku, the always lose goku, I miss the Z goku, charge up his ki goku, I gotta say at that at that time no one could beat goku See I respected goku, the one and only goku, now I watch the goku black arc there’s too many gokus I used to love goku, I used to love goku I even had the orange gi, I thought I was goku, what if this guy made a vid about goku Called “I miss the old goku”, he really knows goku that’s all it was goku, we still love goku and I love you like goku loves kung fu
Just realized that GT goku doesn’t have the issues you mentioned on the video. GT did an amazing job on continuing Goku’s character to the point you can clearly tell that GT goku is a direct upgrade to DBZ goku in every way.
Jesus Christ, f*** no! Have you actually WATCHED GT recently? GT Goku may not have the SAME problems as Super Goku, but he was still a mess of a character. His characterization was still quite schizophrenic, the writers flip flopping between child-like intelligence Goku and adult-like intelligence Goku every othe episode, not to mention his edgelord persona when he is in SSJ4 form.
@narutomaster500 that's a lie. As soon as Burma hinted Vegeta could reach SS4 he was right back in talking about the Dark Horse getting back to the front of the pack.
That moment when Goku got serious and threatened Gohan to leave Namek before He got upset. That was a rare moment, so it fit very well. I miss that Goku
GT Goku actually felt like a veteran martial artist, and Super Saiyan 4 was the cherry on top... It wasn't exactly a form he had to learn, it was simply him gaining more power by going back to his roots. Super's colour fest is so fucking lame.
Most likely because Toriyama continued to complain about editors changing things and telling him to change things quite often. and even in a recent interview he said he never liked how Goku was in DBZ. So apparently childish Goku is correct Goku comparied to matured Goku according to Akira. Probably an example of why editors are a thing. the problem now is. Akira is so stacked in the business, hes the editor now. and keeps giving toyotaro notes, the current artist of dragonball super manga......
@@vixenxia2475It's very sad to him that his beloved characters is being continually portrait wrong. Obviously his name is on most of Dragon Ball related products and shows, but he has never got to developed his character the way he wanted to. The first instance come from the fact "his editor" persuaded him to change Dragon Ball tone completely from the original to Z. He was just a fun characters in a story with an actually good sense of humor. Now he's an alien, a hero saving planet, Toriyama himself dislike the idea of Goku being a hero. The second instance is a famous one where Toriyama decided to put Goku to rest by having Gohan leading the story, the very character has has taken so much time to build up (remember the page at the end of Cell saga where Gohan looks up with a resemblance look of a new deceased Goku in the sky, yeah... that famous page), only for "the audience" to have him bring back Goku to be the main character against, resulting to the "one day trip" back to Earth that last the entire arc, and Gohan who was plot-ready to be the hero of the arc, even pull out the sword of Excalibur as an act of worthiness, to not be the one to save the day. But still, it was fun to ended Z right there. Until... Some random production team think it'd be a good idea to make an live action out of it, an evolution I might say. So much that Toriyama has a stroke watching it and ended up going back to create Super as an act of saving his character from a complete butchery. It was his last resort. It feel kinda bad that such a good character got into this mess. Dragon Ball has grown to become something that its author can't even predict, and who know what's the future of it. Although a lot of people blame Toriyama for a lot of things Dragon Ball related, I'm happy that he is still around to keep what left of the soul that the story has.
@@barry8871Let go of Raditz tail when he's already familiar with people duping him to save their skins (Mercenary Tao) Thought Bubbles was King Kai despite being given clear instructions of who King Kai is Thought it was night time in outer space Needs Piccolo to tell him to remember what Trunks said Didn't take the heart virus medicine when his symptoms started showing and told no one Gives a Senzu Bean to Cell Didn't realize Gohan didn't like fighting and needs Piccolo to tell him this Had to ask Gohan whether Videl was a girl or not Didn't kill Majin Buu when he later states he could have Throws the Potara at Gohan instead of just teleporting and handing it to him, as he does with Vegeta Crushes and uses the Potara earrings when Kabito Kai provies replacements. He later regrets this and says Potara would have finished Buu Either you didn't watch DBZ or you have an obvious double standard and that's sad.
Great analysis. This precisely explains the visceral distaste for Super many fans had as it was being released. At first we couldn't quite pinpoint it, thinking it was the artsyle or the score. But mainly it was attributed to the gross character regression that Goku underwent. Like many people commented, GT was a fantastic interpretation of Gokus character growth in spite of all its flaws. Ss4, for example, perfectly exemplifies gokus commitment to being a protector as the literal catalyst to him fully realizing the transformation was him gazing at planet earth and realizing what he was fighting for. And his demeanor when using the transformation followed suit.
It's even dumber that Goku got laser shot when you realize Blue is a transformative almost enlightened type of state. It's the state where him getting "caught off guard" makes the LEAST amount of sense too.
@@abhabh6896 Max copium from the peanut gallery. Goku is literally chilling out with his best friend, and doesn't take near fatal damage from his buddy. During Res F, Goku is literally still standing over his enemy, the battle had only just "ended" these two are not comparable. Go cope somewhere else, that fanboyish "You think the other thing is perfect" bullshit will not be tolerated here.
@@abhabh6896Ah yes, because having a calm moment with the friend you have spent nearly your entire life with is the same as a space tyrant who YOU KNOW, _for a fact_ will destroy the earth if you let him. Absolutely no IQ take, you might actually contend with Super Goku.
Thank You. I've heard people claim the whole Goku giving Moro a senzu bean thing made complete sense because Goku just beat him and could do it again so there's no threat. Like bro, even if he could beat someone with the same level of ease twice in a row why would someone with any level of common sense just let you get back up.
@@zelohendricks51that's different. Honestly if you're gonna look for a comparison Piccolo Jr. would be more apt, because Goku wasn't _sparing_ Cell, just healing him. Even then I feel like the purpose of Cell's Bean was to make Cell feel confident. A tired Cell might just kill Gohan, Goku needs Cell to take the bait. When Gohan _does_ transform Goku is the one telling him to hurry and finish the job. This isn't about a fair fight. Goku knew when Gohan got backed into a corner and exploded, that he could defeat Cell. He also knows that if _Cell_ got backed into a corner...well, I suppose he _also_ exploded, just in a more literal sense
@@zelohendricks51 not the same, not even close actualy. He had a plan and a reason to heal cell at that time, with moro he just heals moro because he feels like it, it has nothing behind it, he has no plan nor reason for that, he just feels like giving moro a senzu for no reason at all. They tried to make a fan service referencing cell with that but its not the same, not at all.
Another thing to think of for the Goku black fight is that in the anime Goku used SSJ3 to beat Trunks and he said that was the power needed to beat black and since Trunks had a similar base to him that means that Goku was just fighting him with the same power Trunks was getting no where with that warm up and making things worse
yeah, Goku's use of SSJ3 in the Goku Black fight was a power move, but it didn't necessarily guarantee victory. Trunks' base power was similar to Goku's, so it was more about strategy and tactics than raw power in that fight.
Honestly they rehashing a lot of old DBZ moments in different ways and constantly bringing old villains is getting old. Its like they dont know what to do at least GT expanded the universe and the different beings in it smh
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Response Vid: th-cam.com/video/DQIRBkRDCqM/w-d-xo.html
it seem they are basing goku from dragon ball abridged not from z
Who did your profile pic since you never answered me
TOYOTARO IS A VEGETARD WITH A CHIP ON HIS SHOULDER, YOU CAN FIND MANY SCENES WHERE TOYOTARO COPIES FROM DBZ AND THEN HAVE VEGETA DOES VERSIONS OF THOSE SCENES WHILE GOKU RENENACTS ALL OF VEGETA BAD SCENES LIKE WHEN VEGETA WAS ON THE GROUND ON NAMEK AFTER FRIEZA BEAT HIM UP AND GOKU JUST ARRIVED FROM THE HEALING POD, THIS IS MIRRORED AGAINST MORO WHEN VGETA LEARNS INSTANT TRANSMISSION THEN MAGICALLY FORGETS... GRANOLA ARC, HE LITERALLY RIPPED OFF SSJ 3 GOKU VS KID BUU FOR VEGETA VS GRANOLA, THEN LATER ON HE HAS WHIS TELLING GOKU WHAT GOKU TOLD GOHAN IN THE HYPERBOLIC TIME CHAMBER IN THE CELL ARC WORD FOR WORD.
Old Goku Bru who TF is even u??!!
Team four stars take on DBZ basically said what the audience thought for western society at least. Super IS terrible writing. Super is just promotional crap. It doesn't feel like it is part of Dragonball.
Kind of funny how people hated GT for having Goku be a man in a child's body, and Super Goku is pretty much Goku being a child in a man's body. It almost seems purposeful.
and funnily enough, I rag in gt, but Goku acts way more mature in GT than in super.
haha, yeah, it's like they flipped the script with Super Goku, Funny how things work out sometimes.
Even in GT Goku still acted his "age" (not physical) and stepped up when he needed to
i can’t be the only one who likes GT goku i thought his kid super saiyan forms were absolute heat
@@yungkryysisa LOT of people do dw
Old Goku had wisdom and had a good balance between his humour and when he need to get serious.
The thing that bugs me about as super Goku is how child like and naive they portray him at times.
It's like they have a character outline "Goku is a fool" and they're sticking to that no matter what.
I think it's because of the new direction DBS was doing when it first premiered. They tone down the hardcore violence and add too much unnecessary humor. Like you said about the good balance for Goku, they changed it
Super goku is like if someone didn’t watch dragon ball but only knows of the anime is writing the character, because they probably seen a clip or two of goku being goofy and they went with it.
Facts
Some old people be like that 😂 although others get cranky
Son Goku has suffered probably the biggest character assassination in history. He went from a complete martial artist at the end of the Cell Games to a complete joke in super...the authors made him forget all of the lessons he has learned and make all the stupidest mistakes that he could make. it is such a shame, after watching him develop over all those years, seeing him regress so much.
Maybe you haven’t read when MUI Goku went up against Moro. Showed beautiful martial arts while remaining completely focused and serious. Zen like. Possibly the best version of Goku I ever seen .
@@realkingrav22653 months late but Cell Saga Goku>>>>Moro Goku
if the goku who let his own son fight with a high probability that Cell would kill him@@Zennketsu
the problem is all the times before he is not the same. It just kills the immersion its bad writing, how can he be the best goku then? @@realkingrav2265
@@realkingrav2265but he still tossed him a sensu bean for no reason at all when he beat him fair and square
A big issue I had with Super is this whole idea of Goku having poor guard. Even Kid Goku was able to sense danger before seeing it. There are instances of this all before learning ki control with Kami and Popo.
Goku was off his guard when Majin Vegeta took him out
@@dususbakahyahskahwbwm9113yeah that was a very wrong call to decide to trust his best buddy. I think vegeta at that point was one of the last person he expect that from.
yeah, it's true that in Dragon Ball Super, there's a bit more emphasis on Goku's lack of guard compared to his younger self. It's a change in his character that some fans have noticed and had mixed feelings about.
You realize that’s why he got UI though. Plus once you’ve defeated all the people Goku has throughout the years and have been training with deities it’s likely you gain some sort of an ego.
yeah, UI was introduced in Dragon Ball Super to address Goku's lack of guard and improve his fighting abilities.@@MasenkOG
In DBS Super Hero, even with Toriyama writing the script of the film, in the scene on Beerus' planet, Goku is confused by seeing Vegeta meditating, even though Goku should be absolutely aware of what meditating is
Luckily the manga version of super hero fixed that and had him surprised that vegeta of all people would meditate
@@Ui_Raizen I didn’t know that, that’s actually really cool
He is surptised thst VEGETA is meditating. He didnt see him on Yardrat.
@@abhabh6896Watch it again
@@abhabh6896 no in the movie he literally says are you trying to get out of training by sleeping or something like that
Mature Goku was awesome. I loved how serious he felt during the buu saga and the frieza saga.
It’s crazy how people will jokingly say that they’re basing super Goku off of TFS Goku when it’s something I can genuinely see
TFS Goku might be smarter
@@sixfromtokyo Especially when bro just describe to the whole squad why Krillin and Vegeta were basically pawns that he turned into Frauds in order to set Gohan Up to defeat Cell
@@ferane287 Ngl this is kinda in character for DBZ Goku 😂 Even though Gohan and he were the last to enter originally and didn't reenter, he was confident that only Gohan could defeat Cell. Bro that's so savage 😂 I miss this Goku
@@ferane287he can also do taxes apparently
haha, yeah, the influence of TFS Goku on Dragon Ball Super Goku is quite noticeable. It's funny how a parody version can sometimes shape our perception of a character.
I believe one of the reasons ppl don't complain that much about this new Goku is cuz they didn't watch the original DBZ and the only thing they know about Goku is that he's a happy enthusiastic dude, but they don't know that when shit gets serious Goku don't play around funny shit.
Cuz most of the people who watch super and dont complain are people who have been mandela effected by The Abridged series
Be a Goatku fan, not a Clownku fan.
People don’t complain about Super Goku because that’s who Goku always was. It’s the localization that made him to be Japanese He Man when that’s not how he’s supposed to be.
@@Bornagainvillain ^Bro hasn't watched DB or dbz 😭😭stop it bro, even in the Japanese version and the original MANGA Goku wasn't as stupid as he is in Super, where he forgot pivotal parts of the plan, the mafuba seal and senzu beans which led to Trunks future being erased 😂
yeah, some people who are more familiar with Dragon Ball Super might not have seen Goku's serious side from the original DBZ. They might only know him as a happy and enthusiastic character, but in serious situations, Goku doesn't mess around.
Old Goku was lowkey a ruthless man when you didn't listen to his warning. When he left Nappa paralyzed from the waist down I knew he had that dawg in him
Super Goku doesn't compare with the old Goku, that Kaioken scene went hard
That was one of Goku's hardest moments in DBZ, Super really regressed Goku's character entirely, they turned Goku in a megalomaniac with an addiction to battle
Nappa forced goku's hand he was about to kill gohan and krillin with his mouth beam attack
Ultra Instinct Goku is basically just serious Z Goku, and that’s a reason I think why that form is so well received. Goku has one of the most underrated character arcs in all of anime from Dragon Ball to the end of Z.
No. Ultra instinct Goku is Goku free from Z, free ftom bs ssj forms that only multiply the powerelrvel and fo nothing else. Finally, he can pursue martial arts again instead of pursuing "next ssj".
Also, dub Goku is fake.
@@abhabh6896 Goku from the manga is verbatim dub (Kai) and sub Goku. They’re the same character.
@@mrgotham3685 Yes but Verbatum Goku most people think off is "I am the hope of the universe" Goku. Also, Gokus action in cell games felt forced. Like Goku had to give way to Gohan so Gohan gets the protagonist treatment. It felt uncharacteristic of Goku. Also, lots of people ignore the fact that Goku is also prideful and arrogant. Had Goku been in same place as Vegeta when he fought semiperfect cell, Goku would have done same probably. Goku isnt a "Japanese superman". people need to get used to that.
@@abhabh6896 It didn’t tho, Goku during and after the cell saga in Z was looking for someone to take the mantle of protector away from him because he knew he wouldn’t be around forever. He started with Gohan, then wanted Gotenks to be the one to finish Buu, and even still to this day he pushes Gohan to become stronger although it’s unclear if it’s still for the same reason. For his character’s sake it definitely should be.
@mrgotham3685 You don't look for a new savior when you have would ending threats afoot. Especially not from children
I miss the old Goku. The mature Goku. The humble Goku, the Goku who cared about fighting Goku. I hate the new Goku, the childish and dumb Goku, the egotisitcal Goku, the obessed with fighting Goku
I miss the old Goku, I miss the old Goku, I miss the old Goku 😢
I was searching for this comment thank you
You beat me to this post so now i have to give you my energy
yeah, the old Goku had a different vibe, more mature and humble. The new Goku is definitely more childish and obsessed with fighting. It's a different take on the character for sure.
I was gonna comment that
I miss kid Goku, he was carefree and pure but took thinks seriously when he had too and was always picking up on cues
Its funny to think Goku in Resurrection F was going to let Frieza go when he is literally the guy that taught Goku to not let certain people go.
It was a very poor attempt, like many things in the movie and subsequent Super retelling, to basically redo as much of the Frieza Saga as they could manage, hence Goku not just killing Frieza.
@@immortalfriezawhy are they trying to redo the frieza saga?
@@jyanbei Nostalgia baiting. The fact that they brought Frieza back in the first place was for the sake of nostalgia baiting.
Goku was TAUGHT not to kill people in Majunior saga. He will always try not to kill people. Also, he isnt superman, he doesnt judge Furiza, he just wants Frieza to stop making trouble for him.
@@abhabh6896 Goku also learned against Frieza that some people never change and should be killed, hence Goku killing Frieza on Earth after Yardrat and then wanted Gohan to kill Cell
Child Goku had an ego, but he also learned from Mr. Popo to never underestimate his opponents, and he never showed that side during the Z arc because he learned his lesson.
He suffered from Flanderization, unfortunately. OG Adult Goku had some childish elements to him but they were very minor and were just a few charming quirks to his character, but he behaved like an adult where it counted. In Super he seems like a manchild now, he never takes anything seriously and acts like a teenager all the time like everything is just a big game to him, even though people are dying he doesn't take the situation seriously! It's frustrating.
It's really jarring to go back and read any of Z after finishing Super. Goku acts like a completely different person.
Goku did underestimate buu many times during the buu arc.
@@nionlietz2488when?
@@nionlietz2488when ?
@@nionlietz2488mainly kid buu though
No one talking about the "WAKE UP" text?
Bro fr😭
They're so unexpected and weird that it almost had me concerned for a second lmao
its subliminal brainwashing
its a reference to a movie called they live we sleep@@starfox300
GT has good continuations of character development. Even though Goku got turned into a kid he acts accordingly. It's as the saying goes GT Goku has a child body but Super Goku has the mind of a child.
@XboxxAyechill there were talkin bout personality super goku is still pretty strong
@XboxxAye I mean...we can. Super Base Goku slaps all of Z atm.
@@zelohendricks51
By the time of RoF or the U6 Saga I'd say so.
Base GT Goku has some feats that put him , if not on the same level, then a least in the same conversation as end of BoG Goku when it comes to power.
@matthewbreytenbach4483 Goku himself says even Vegito would be no match for Beerus yet he was confident enough to fight Beerus as a SSG. Which means it's leagues above anything Z Vegito could put out (ie the strongest character in Z). So I'd say no Blue isn't needed at all to slap all of Z. And sorry but GT scales far below Super. No shade but thats the truth
@@zelohendricks51
Oh yeah no, I agree.
That's why I say end of BoG.
Goku started that movie/arc a bit stronger than he was at the end of the Buu saga, and gained at _least_ a five hundred fold permanent increase to his abilities by the end.
GT Goku was almost fifteen years older and spent most of that time training Uub, becoming extremely powerful in his own right. To the point where he could casually take on two post-Buu Saga Super Saiyans at the same time in base. In a body that he considered too weak to sustain some of his abilities (at least in the dub)
Most likely though Super Goku was a decent amount stronger at the end of BoG (though a good deal less experienced) and eclipsed anything GT Goku could bring to the table, SS4 included, the moment he learned how to tap into God Ki on his own.
The mention of RoF is because I think that would be about the cutoff point where Super Goku is no longer even remotely comparable.
U6 is a bit of an absurd benefit-of-the-doubt highball since I don't really have a way to tell exactly how Baby, Super 17 or Omega Shenron compare to suppressed Beerus or Golden Frieza.
He used to be able to read minds and souls. Imagine if he did that with the enemies he traded blows with; he'd figure out some of the deepest motives they were hiding
He did it in the fight with Broly when he was Super Saiyan Red lol
@@TheRealDyscyplesSUPER SAYIAN RED IS CRAZY 😭
@rakuthelegend1793 I liked when they used super saiyan licorice
@@daydreamer977 super sayian silver but the hair dosent spike up is my fav 🗣️
@@daydreamer977he probably called it red instead of its actual name because of religious purposes. I do the same thing
Goku was nearly a perfected martial artist in OG Db. Roshi even stated he could not teach him anything 😂
Lucky for Goku the animators forgot how to animate martial arts, so Goku's more of a yatatatatata punch spammer now
@@starbreeze7249I swear if goku only kept the energy bolts but not the power level. He be in the same situation as Superman vs a boxer on a red sun
bros d riding midku in every commentsection get a life
@@kazuiyah Touch grass you are commenting under my midku comment.
he even say is not near a master thats how beautiful soul goku has
2:18 goku telling him WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP was the best part of the arc tbh
Does no one else see that shit??? Is it just us bro?? 🤣🤣
fr
god damn I thought I was trippin.@@Marcellian
I saw it and no one was talking about it freaked me out
12:55 also lmao
While reviewing the Saiyan saga, some of my favorite moments that reaaaally took me back and made me remember why Goku was one of my favorite characters of all time (and why Super was a significant downgrade for me)
1 When propositioned by vegeta to become his second in command, Goku responds "No thanks. besides, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of job security"
Hearing Goku talk about something as adult as job security, idk, it just really got me. This felt like a down to earth GUY. Just some guy who happens to have enormous power and abilities but a real person nonetheless.
2) When he talks to Gohan and Krillin and convinces them to leave. He points out to Gohan how Chi Chi must be worried about him and even asks Gohan to "Give her a hug for me" It's so wholesome and family oriented and implies they have a healthy, happy family dynamic that's existed all this time. Even later Z seems to forget about portraying Goku as someone who can have actual familial affection outside of pride for his son's power.
3) He purposely incapacitates Nappa instead of murdering him (this has remained fairly consistent at least)
4) His pep talk to Gohan is incredibly kind, insightful and finishes with him reaching out, again to show physical affection for his child (vegeta knee smashes him in the gut to interrupt. Which, my God Saiyan Saga vegeta is the most fun villain in DBZ. Guy absolutely delights in being the biggest heel imagineable)
Seeing Goku demonstrate himself to be THIS well rounded of an adult human being...his relatability was off the charts.
Speaking of the Saiyan Saga, there’s an actual fan project of said arc, where these fans remixes that entire arc, with the Bruce Faulconer score. With some new remixes added.
Vegeta was and still is my favourite character. I always found him far more relatable. He gets beaten. Frustrated. Cries. Has massive growth even in super. They doing Vegeta well imo
@@obskewerd3992I wish they give him a solid hard earned battle fought win still 😢
@@bacongod5759 Absolutely he earned it. But, Vegeta had other victories to look upon. His growth as a person is awesome. He is technically about as strong as, If not just below Goku. He’s accepted that Goku is in fact just a supreme well of power. Hea sacrificed himself and attained the power he wanted through actual grit.
If I can be so bold though, I actually liked GT a LOT. Vegeta also shows incredible growth in that series. And the art direction was phenomenally done.
@@SuperSonicWarrior93where can i find this project?
Old Goku is peak MC behavior
Nah he’s pretty boring and made some pretty dumb decisions, I didn’t like cell games goku it just wasn’t like him at all. Super Goku is more like it. Totally reminds me of a Goku who defeated a threat and can freely going around fighting and testing his limits. I’m so glad I wasn’t brainwashed by a “Japanese super man” I got my own perception of him from watching DB all the way to super. DBZ fans often don’t have any good arguments it’s always the nostalgia blinding them and them brining up the most smallest none rememberable moments about something goku says or does one future that hasn’t even affected the franchise lmao.
@@Not_obligated2care You had me for a second until you started praising super Goku I’m ngl. Bait wasn’t great but it was still a fun read lol thanks for the chuckle
In my personal opinion, I think they based Goku’s writing in Super and every other character’s writing in Super on how some fans perceive the characters rather than how the characters were originally established
It's like they looked at TFS Goku for a reminder and ran with it
@@hyperion3145 Even TFS goku is more serious than DBS Goku.
@@hyperion3145 Not even TFS Goku is as braindead as DBS Goku.
@@concept5631yes he definitely is.
Wrong. The super version of Goku is the real Goku. Z Goku was heavily misrepresented and his personality was changed.
I miss when Goku was genuinely mature and understanding towards others. I feel like while he definitely isn’t portrayed totally negative, you can definitely see how super turned him into a more goofy and dumb version of himself as compared to Z. It’s hard to explain, but I’m sure y’all understand what I mean when I say there’s a difference between Goku in Z and Goku in DBS
i dont think i'd ever consider goku "mature" just not retarded and the literal child he is in super
Yeah that’s what the video is about bruh
yeah, there's definitely a difference in Goku's portrayal between Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super. In Super, he can come across as more goofy and less mature compared to his Z counterpart. It's a subtle shift in his character, but it's something that fans have noticed.
I dont miss the time when Goku was an offbrand superman. I miss the time when I enjoyed seeing Goku fight.... then Z came and this cool kid was replaced by a screaming whiny toddler who doesnt know how to throw a punch.
@@abhabh6896you're full of Doo Doo
It's DBZA's fault. Toriyama saw how they portrayed Goku and thought: "Finally, somebody understands me," and then modeled DBS Goku directly from that.
W toriyama maybe RIP 🙏
Tbh even if that were true, TFS had no way of knowing. They were making the same funny s*@tposts everyone else makes. Toriyama made the mistake in copying a parody.
I don’t think Toriyama modeled it after DBZA, as he always had the opinion that he wanted Goku to be selfish and only care about fighting. I think it was pressure from his publishers that made him not written like that in the Dragon Ball Manga. But with Super he was given complete creative control, so we finally got to see Toriyama unrestricted and it was a disaster to behold.
What I will say about DBZA, as entertaining and funny as it is, I hate the fact that people have watched it and view it as a replacement to the original DBZ. They’ll say “It’s better! They fix the plotholes! The characters are written better!” In believing that they also convince themselves that Goku is this stupid hick that only gives a shit about fighting and nothing else. Even at the cost of his own friends and family. And people glaze DBZA and Super anyways.
It’s just one of those weird situations where what’s new and popular is more publicly recognized and given more excuses when criticized. Ultimately DB and DBZ remains better to people who have read the manga or watched the original Japanese version of the anime.
the wake up subtitles are freaking me out
Nah fr I thought I was trippin 😭
Dont worry... you can rest. Its alright.
Everyone misses the old Goku!! 😭☠️
the old pre Z Goku that made a comeback in Super that is.
@@abhabh6896 Oh look!! We found the contrarian!! 🙄😃😑 OG Dragon Ball Goku is *NOTHING* like that monstrosity in super 😐☠️
@@TheUnderDogUzumakimonstrosity? Lmao he isn't that bad y'all just over exaggerating
@@pric3lessl0s3r5 it really isn’t an exaggeration tbh 😭
@@abhabh6896you mean 15 year old, super goku is 40+.
Whenever i watch slower videos like these i always zone out so that wake up text may genuinely be one of the most genius things I've ever seen in aa youtube video
It is so refreshing to see a video about Goku’s personality and not how many Hulks he can spank.
Bro, you literally would find this topic of Goku's regression in Super everywhere.
It's not new
@@joeda900only three vids exist on this topic.
Super makes me look at GT in a much better light. It has it's flaws but it's short enough to not outlive it's welcome and Goku's character from Z to GT remains more or less consistent even if he was physically turned into a child. Whereas Goku in Super is still an adult but mentally, it's like he never left Mt. Pauzu.
Yea you can just tell by the way he acts in GT that he is a seasoned veteran who knows what hes doing and when to take things seriously. Just look at Goku when he kills baby. ZERO hesitation. No playing around. No mercy. He eliminates a threat and gets the job done. Thats something youll never see from Goku in Super and I really miss that.
@@pinstripecool34The Eis Shenron Fight. The deflection of Goten's blast
@@pinstripecool34Let go of Raditz tail when he's already familiar with people duping him to save their skins (Mercenary Tao)
Thought Bubbles was King Kai despite being given clear instructions of who King Kai is
Thought it was night time in outer space
Needs Piccolo to tell him to remember what Trunks said
Didn't take the heart virus medicine when his symptoms started showing and told no one
Gives a Senzu Bean to Cell
Didn't realize Gohan didn't like fighting and needs Piccolo to tell him this
Had to ask Gohan whether Videl was a girl or not
Didn't kill Majin Buu when he later states he could have
Throws the Potara at Gohan instead of just teleporting and handing it to him, as he does with Vegeta
Crushes and uses the Potara earrings when Kabito Kai provies replacements. He later regrets this and says Potara would have finished Buu
Either you didn't watch DBZ or you have an obvious double standard and that's sad.
Yeah fair point, when Whis first said that Goku was over confident and letting his guard down i just accepted it like it was always the case. But yeah, that never was the case in Z
Cell saga goku gave us sensei vibes without us even knowing, especially with ssj mastery and the symbols disappearing
Cell saga broke Gokus character.
@@abhabh6896who?
@@Flex_seal Typo. Cell SagaGoku would never quit a fight. Lots of Gokus actions in Z felt very forced, in order to make Gohan get the spotlight... Him quitting the fight was just a BS reason to for writers to give Gohan that fight.... but watching Goku fight feels like a reward, watching Gohan fight feels like a punishment. As someone who used to watch kid Goku fight... watching kid Gohan fight is ughhh.... I just cant take it....
It was actually for shadowed, many times throughout the series. Goku even admitted he likely wouldn't be able to beat Cell. He's always had faith in Gohan due to his hidden power, and even in the chamber, he saw glimpses of it and pinned his hope on that power being enough to beat Cell. The only reason he did step down is because his best shit failed, he also didn't realize Gohan didn't have his killer edge. It was pretty good writing if you think about it, otherwise it would have been another boring win. Also, in the end the goku stans won out, they needed Gohan to death and made goku kill every villian yay Goku stans. Now the series is dead af
@@abhabh6896 Broke? nah more like fixed
Goku was the actual greatest martial artist in the universe and then Super happens, its very upsetting seeing the regression and I'm happy someone noticed
Buu, gohan and gotenks behind*
His battle IQ did not go down
Ss3 Goku still IS the greatest martial artist in the universe. Beerus, is a god. Frieza, had to train to surpass him. Zamasu stole goku’s body, Jiren is from another universe. Granola and Gas had to wish, and arguably so did Moro. Broly was also weak until he fought goku.
@@Zero-hp1ds yeah and only real fans understand this.
Dragon Ball: A Child in a Child’s Body
Dragon Ball Z: An Adult in an Adults Body
Dragon Ball GT: An Adult in a Child’s Body
Dragon Ball Super: A Child in an Adults Body
I hate the retcons and lessons goku's forgotten, it just unnecessarily removes the growth he's had and makes him more idiotic for no reason. Especially in the manga like literally it was established goku relaxes which allows him to utilize his full power but suddenly he doesn't do that and Vegeta's the first one to figure that out when they were both blatantly told about it during the Resurrection F arc.
He learned this with Popo and Kami , how many times he needs to learn the same lesson
@@crisstoff89 The Krilin stone throwing scene DBZ says otherwise. Also, Gokus martial arts weakenes in Z because he was so focused on ssj.
@@abhabh6896the rock throw is filler
@@basimali619and? Its still there
@@zelohendricks51 not in kai is it? Unless it’s one of the fillers left in.
You see, if they had the balls and made Goten and Trunks the protagonist of Super with Gohan being a more guidance oriented figure, these flaws (for Goten) would be perfectly fine. But na, I am convinced that Akira doesn't care all that much like he use to and the rest of the writers don't understand the spirit of Dragon Ball.
I really hate that Gohan literally thinks Goku and Vegeta will always be around when he saw them die several times. Hell, Goku was dead for most of Gohans life and even they say they are getting older. Why would he focus on studies if he knows the universe likes popping out galaxy busters recently now that Frieza isn’t going around killing possible challenges to his rule when they are little
@@mateomorales1653wasn’t the point of cell saga for gohan to realize he is the next savior ?
I don't think Toriyama ever cared. He's a comedy writer that got talked into writing an action series by his editors, then spent nearly the entire time being hounded and heavily influenced by said editors. I don't think he ever wanted to write something as serious as Z, it was just the best business decision.
@@MisterCynic18 yeah it was tough for the last year to be critical of his work. But it was clearly just a job to him. He didnt really care or understand what made DB sucessful.
what's with the wake up at 7:25 bruh I am NOT waking up😭🙏🔥🔥🔥🔥
The real sad thing is that it's not only Goku, so many characters in Super feel like they have either regressed or are stuck in an eternal cycle of the same story and lessons over and over again.
- Vegeta spends every other arc overcoming his past and sins, and admitting that Goku is better in some aspects and going his own ways just to regress right back to "Grrr my pride, I wish I was a Carot" in the next arc.
- Gohan learns that you can be a scholar but keep training to protect your loved ones for the 100th time, then disappears again for the next 2 arcs and comes back all rusty.
- Future Trunks tried to solve everything on his own and with pure power alone again.
- Trunks and Goten have been stuck as kids for the occasional Gotenks slap stick for the past 30 years.
- Krillin and the other humans keep jumping between retiring as fighters and coming back every other arc.
- Beerus and Whis keep getting stronger every other arc, and every time they show a hint of interest in something or that it could have consequences, they go back to "mmmm food".
It's pretty obvious Toyotarou or whoever writes this shit either doesn't really know what to do with the characters and/or that they are afraid to break the stalemate that Dragonball Super ultimately has set itself into with keeping it withing the end of Z.
Super Hero was so good because it finally gave some long overdue justice to Gohan, Piccolo, and to a lesser extend Goten, Trunks, Krillin and so on. I hope they finally go beyond Z after this arc, so we don't have to push the reset button after every other arc.
GT has many flaws, but I do think one thing it did pretty well was writing continuation of the characters. Goku enjoyed live and seeing Pan grow up, knowing that most things couldn't phase him anymore, but he would become 100% serious the moment he needed to. Vegeta became a family man on earth, ready to defend it with his life if need be. Goten and Trunks actually grew up and do adult shit. Piccolo embraces his role as a mentor and guardian. The list goes on.
Super has potential, but they are either afraid to or don't know how to use it.
The only reason why Toriyama continued making Dragon Ball content was mainly because he didn't want Dragon Ball Evolution to be the last piece of Dragon Ball media ever made, and it shows.
I'd hardly call Super Hero justice for Gohan. Even if we discount the anime, last time in Resurrection F Gohan got beat down by Frieza, and then learned that hey...he should probably keep training just in case Goku and Vegeta aren't around to handle things.
Flash forward to Super Hero, and Gohan actually says something to the effect of "why train when Goku and Vegeta can handle any villains?" Toriyama doesn't give two shits about Gohan anymore, and it shows with how he just never develops as a character. Then of course in order to win, what does Gohan get? A random power up from out of nowhere which is literally just a meme that people made to make fun of the idea of them recycling the idea of SSJ2 Gohan again because of how creatively bankrupt Dragonball is at this point.
So what, Gohan has to learn again to actually be responsible? Except, no, not really, because actually he doesn't have to train and he'll just get saved by a convenient powerup with no repercussions for his mistakes.
Meanwhile, in a movie literally titled "Super Hero," Gohan's SUPER HERO IDENTITY never shows up! How can that even be, it's the most obvious connection. Speaking of the title, Toriyama literally points out how weird it is to call it "Dragonball Super Super Hero," but I guess nobody wanted to tell a legendary mangaka like him that "hey wait...that sounds kinda dumb."
@@AirLancer Your last paragraph made a good point. The Great Saiyaman was critically missing from the film.
I didn't say this in the intro but this isn't supposed to be like Super In-depth or anything the point is Goku is different and it doesn't take a genius to figure it out.
Real
The only way they could've made the "Goku gets caught off guard" moment from resurrection F be more believable is if they had Sorbet create a diversion so Freeza could land a Death beam or something. It would've been a little more justifiable, but it would go against Mr. Popo's lesson to Goku.
No your wrong six no he doesn’t your wrong six
cool video! but whats with the wake up thing?
@@Sabrina0swhat wake up thing?
and now I look and look around and see so many Gokus...
The writers of Dragonball Z Resurrection F should have had Goku blocking the laser from Sorbet. Only to be caught off guard by Freeza's putting nearly all his energy in it.
I love that
@@sixfromtokyo Thank you. I'll follow up with Freeza still having enough energy to keep his weird shallow golden form, tank a beating from SSB Vegeta and destroy Earth.
Omg that's.... infinitely better
I feel like some writer did this on purpose to please those people who don't like how strong Goku has become. Everyone knows this scene is straight up awful and you have individuals use this scene for debates and say shit like "Goku can't handle lasers, SSJ Blue is weak, etc" Well, at least the anime version is somewhat alright
I'm glad that the dragon ball fanbase is finally realizing that Goku regressed significantly as a character once DBS started because a couple of years back, you would have morons telling you otherwise and saying he was always like this
I'm really glad about it too, back then people were just riding the hype wave of DBS and would literally not listen to any criticism about it all. Now that the hype has gone down people are starting to realize how awful some of the choices were, the most unforgivable is Goku's regression and Vegeta's is arguably worse--Vegeta is like some weird in-between of his Android saga and Buu saga self. Though, if we're keeping it a buck, pretty much EVERYONE was regressed in DBS in some shape which is legitimately FUNNY to me. Dragon ball GT is bad, but at least the characters felt IN CHARACTER. Goku and Vegeta behave how we'd expect their more mature selves to be. Kinda crazy how Gok physically became a child in GT and mentally became a child in DBS I'd almost call it clever but we all know the writers aren't capable of being that clever.
@tristysstuff6664 DBGT and DBS are more similar than people think. Both shows have good ideas, but they are not executed properly. The big difference for me is that I find DBGT to be boring, but DBS makes me angry. I slightly prefer DBS over DBGT because the DBS movies have been, for the most part, pretty good
@@jcg7609 I feel the same way about the shows tbh, but I generally prefer DBGT over DBS despite DBS having better moments imo because I can't get over how much they've butchered some characters in DBS and honestly DBS just doesn't... FEEL like dragon ball if that makes sense? DBGT at least feels like a sequel, but DBS just feels off to me...I'd have to guess cuz of that art style? Totally Not Mark's video about the day DB died kinda explains some of my thoughts about this
@@jcg7609 Yes. Both GT and Super have really good ideas and moments and really shitty ideas and moments. It's really only Dragonball and Z that were nearly flawless.
@tristysstuff6664 I completely understand where you're coming from. I think the biggest problem with DBS is that it should have started after the end of Z and have Oob be the main protagonist with Goku as his mentor.
By the end of the cell arc, Goku is a fully realized character with very few flaws, so he doesn't serve the role of a protagonist very well, so having serve the roll of a mentor with a new protagonist should have been the way to go.
Is it me or does Super Goku feel like the TFS rendition of Goku and is what people think Goku's character is but is far from what he was during Dragon Ball and Z and heck even GT
You nailed Z Goku in comparison to Super Goku. Everything he learned from DB through Z has been completely neglected in Super and it's appalling.
I thank you very kindly for this video.
Also, Goku giving Cell the Senzu Bean saved the universe, as Goku knows that both Vegeta and Frieza would destroy the planet if they were backed into a corner. He gave Cell the sb not only to protect Gohan's pride as a warrior, but to save what he holds dear to him. He felt that Gohan had a power within him stronger than himself. He knew Gohan would get the job done. Him being the Master Martial Artist, he would know how to handle situations outside of just the battle, but the war in it's entirety.
In Dragon Ball:
He gave Piccolo a SB because of he died, Kami would die and, the DBs would be rendered useless.
Thank you
Goku knew the moment Cell got pissed off, he would've tried to destroy the planet, unfortunately, he tried to do that when Goku's plan succeeded and Gohan became far stronger than Cell.
"He gave Cell the sb not only to protect Gohan's pride as a warrior, but to save what he holds dear to him. He felt that Gohan had a power within him stronger than himself. He knew Gohan would get the job done."
But Goku still needlessly assisted an enemy and thus risked the world for no good reason. Had Cell subsequently just killed Gohan rather than try to anger him, the world would've been screwed. That's why Goku giving Moro a senzu bean isn't out of character. Stupid yes, but not out of character.
I say this all the time and people still say he’s a bad father and “the ends don’t justify the means”
@@immortalfriezasame actions for much different reasons.
People dunk on the “Superman” Goku but that shit went hard-its the Goku that you felt the desire to be like. Kindhearted but he wasn’t soft.
No Superman goku was fucking cringe. The real goku japanese/kai was the GOAT.
The fact that you would choose a garbo dub over the actual real version of Goku shows that you're not even a true Dragon Ball fan. End of story.
I prefer to think Goku as an "Iron Man" sort of figure in the dub. Some of his selfish qualities show sure, but he's ultimately a hero that protects the world and has that as his top priority when the chips are down.
Superman Goku is not Goku. Sorry
@@dangerousdays2052Bro I said I liked the Superman Goku, not that he was better than Canon Goku. That’s a completely different sentence that I never made. You acting like this is twitter.
It goes like this. Canon Goku >>>>>>>>> “Hope of The Universe” Goku >> Trash >>>> Brain-Dead “Super” Goku
I don't miss the old Goku because he has never left my memories. I miss what DragonBall became before DragonBall Super was created
I think beerus flicking Goku made him dumber lol
To bring up another point regarding Goku’s development regarding who he chooses to spare, he doesn’t even attempt to spare Yakon, he just straight up kills him, so it wouldn’t make sense for Goku to spare Moro.
I think he was testing to see what Moro would do. Because he knew even if he gave Moro that Senzu Bean, he still couldn’t beat him.
Too be fair if a creature sucking light is given too much it will die I don't Goku was like "I'm gonna kill this thing on purpose"
Goku didnt spare Moror. He gave him the senzu because he knew Merus and others fought him before. He wnated to kill Moror at full power and he wanted to show off (yes, Goku has pride and arrogance too, anyone who watched OGDB knows this).
Justice for Yakon! He didnt have that main villain character energy so Goku saw his life as worthless apparently
@@abhabh6896don’t say this, six nit picked a lot of Super and Z to make his points. Super and Z goku are the same character, people are just too ignorant and blinded by nostalgia
Let’s not forget one of our very first shots of Goku in Dragon Ball was Goku literally getting shot multiple times by Bulma, and the bullets bouncing off…
I'm AWAKE! You got me scared of captions
Goku has soooo many villains into Z-Fighterz: Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, Piccolo, Vegeta, etc. He’s sees the best in people so that pushes him to try to redeem others - not a bad trait in my mind.
RIP Akira Toriyama 😢❤
He was awesome. His back and forth with piccolo on the look out when they were training Gotenks. He was a different guy back then
Every time I revisit Z especially the first 3 Z Era Sagas, I say the same thing. back when I was a kid watching Dragon Ball on Toonami back in the early 00's, Goku WAS my favorite character.. as an adult however he's just an aggravating disgrace during 90% of Super. Vegeta took his original place imo.
WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP
2:19 Six making me think I'm in a coma 😭
I’m so lost on why that keeps popping up lmao
For all of GT's faults I did like that Goku was carefree and childish at times, but once things got serious the martial arts master came out and he took things seriously depending on the threat.
I always hated gt and it was the first series to dumb him down back in the day
@@SoulWarriorSF Please elaborate.
@@SoulWarriorSFNo it did not “dumb” down Goku.
@@hannah60000 Kid goku
@@hannah60000 Gt was just ass in general
One thing though Goku started sparing people in Dragonball when Android 8 convinced him not to kill general silver
Oh and super Goku is abridged Goku lol
@@TruBaus210 sounds like a good thing to me lmao considering people love abridged Goku a lot.
I always feel so mixed when I think about toriyama. On the one hand, he did a great job writing dbz. On the other hand, I see interviews and think, "does this guy even see what he writes". For example the whole mental training thing from super hero. In one interview Ive read he said goku turning super saiyan wasnt heroic in the slightest and because of his lust for battle. It just makes no sense sometimes
Maybe because he's getting old lol
@@br8y693idk maybe he wrote dbz by accident
As I recall, Toriyama mentions that he writes by the seat of his pants. If you look at a lot of Dragon Ball from Namek to Buu, you can see a number of points where the plot gets rocky, but still largely works on the whole. But after all this time and Toriyama even admitting that he's forgotten aspects of Dragon Ball in the past, such as Launch or even the title of Dragon Ball Super itself, I think it's clear that writing by the seat of his pants doesn't always work for the best anymore.
They say Dragon balls fans haven't even read the manga nor watched the anime. Well neither has the author apparently
Ive also recently read that, that Goku turning SS wasnt about the emotions of everything Freiza has done but just him loving fighting and reached a peak. That and also him being dumb is apparently on type for what Toriyama should be
GT Goku is the best continuation of Goku's growth. He turned into a kid again and was humbled, which forced him to work his way back up and be less careless. In Super, Goku is gotten cocky and careless, and the T.o.P is a great example of this. Picking Frieza has a companion, instilling the idea of wiping out the defeated universe to Zeno. Then the whole Moro thing...ugh.
I honestly think the whole point of his character arc in Super is to make his character arc in GT make more sense. GT may not be canon- but there is a very real chance that Toriyama cherry picks GT to make certain pieces, forms, characters and themes canon. A great example of this is Broly.
@@omnis9924I don't think that's the case. It was more likely to give Goku a shonen protagonist progression again, because GT just flows better with Z Goku. Goku probably loved that Pan, Trunks, and [almost] Goten were going to find the Black Star Balls, because his wanting to pass the torch could be furthered in them, and for the most part he didn't even go Super Saiyan until he was getting they were getting pressed by General Rilldo, doing a lot of good at once by maintaining SSJ's prestige, showing Rilldo's power in comparison, and Goku's willing to take appropriate action when the time calls for it. It follows how Goku acts throughout the latter parts of Z.
Goku in Super seems to have NO intention on passing the torch and has more emphasis on his selfish battle-lust and getting stronger, while making him convienently stupid when the plot needs it like with the seal, DESPITE HIM BEING THE ONE TO MAKE THE PLAN IN THE FIRST PLACE
GT fans rest easy knowing Goku only needs one new form to deal with the enemy
@@albertthepeacock8020 oh the cheat force form?
@kairusaotome95 that's Ultra Ignorance you're thinking of
2:19 really caught me with the captions😂😂
Goku has always been a goofy and carefree guy. That’s part of his personality. It’s different when fighting and danger is imvolved. There he is more about his wits. Even GT Goku wasn’t so dumb when I think about it.
GT goku wasn't. When Baby was a threat, he went against sparing him and decided to kill him. Goku feels like a master in GT
@@lapplandkun9273GT Goku really felt like a combination between og db Goku and dbz Goku with his love of food and carefree nature outside battle but smart (with the exception the of the super 17 arc) and serious nature inside battle
@@uninformed2167He wasn't able to see from where Super 17 was absorbing the ki blast is still strange the amount he used though.
yeah, Goku has always had a carefree and goofy side to his personality, but he knows how to get serious when it comes to fighting and dangerous situations. Even in GT, he showed more intelligence than some may give him credit for. It's all about finding that balance between his playful nature and his fighting prowess.
@ferrucciocaracciuolo8139 He used more ki against Super 17 than we've seen him use in awhile. I wouldn't call that smart and I've never seen Super Goku make a mistake that blatant. Just look at how he figured Hit out
Yea he will be missed, makes me question all those bullies I stood up to back in the day.
Imagine Boruto ends, After Boruto they focus on Naruto again and then you hear someone say "I miss when Naruto was just Borutos dad", except DBZs Boruto doesnt even want to be a ninja, he wants to study grass. Yet him whining about fighting was the focal point of the entire plot of Boruto. Good riddance. Finally its back to being Gokus show.
THANK YOU SIX!
I have been telling people who support DBS since it's the series' inception that the aspect of DBS Goku's character inconsistency is a tremendous plot-hole that contradicts the DB & DBZ character developments of Goku.
I could give countless examples of other DBS plot-holes and other character development contradictions, but then this comment would end up becoming a Wall-Of-Text~
In closing, I respect your willingness to call out these story-line errors created from Toyotaro and Akira Toriyama.
The Modern Dragon Ball Community needs more people like yourself who are not afraid to call out the wrong-doings of the modern Dragon Ball franchise creators!
Absolute facts, Six. Another reason Goku spares his opponents is because he's seen that some people can make profound changes in their lives for the better when given a second chance. People like Piccolo, Vegeta and even Buu, who have become great allies and friends from being given a second chance to see the error in their ways to find a greater purpose
8:31 Also he only said this to annoy Vegeta so that Vegeta would train even harder. He didn't say it out of ego
moral of the story: dont make a second part of a discontinued anime if you’re going to fuck up all the character development
tell that to toei
This might be one of if not your best video and couldn't agree more this was so good frfr
Rip Toriyama
Imo the better solution would be to retire Goku all together as was originally intended. The reason his recent characterization is so odd is because Goku has long since fulfilled his heros journey and completed his character arc. Instead of giving Goku a respectful send off and allowing Gohan and the next generation to step up, theyve just reset and recycled Goku time and time again, making it feel like hes regressed. Its time for Goku to take the back seat in the "Master" role and let new heroes take the spotlight.
The only time i say he was old goku was with broly and I guess Battle of gods.
I will say ultimately retired would say use him sporadically. But yeah they really should give the other characters more time To have the spotlight and arks.
Nobody will watch. Gohan is boring.
@@Tre_Ason_Number7there are plenty of fan animations that prove a show with no goku could work
That didn't go too well for Naruto...I'm not sure I want a Dragon Ball: Next Generations 😞
youre completely right about the over confidence thing. Another thing that people do not mention is when Beerus first arrives on King Kais planet, Goku with his new inflated ego, wrongly thinks that he is way stronger than Beerus and even offers to take it down to ssj2 to fight him. He underestimated Beerus because of his size which is literally something he lectured Vegeta and others about in the Buu arc when they faced Kid Buu. Even if Goku actually thought he was stronger, he would never say it out loud or gloat about it.
Finally, someone put the word, excellent video, Im 37 years old and I do miss the old Goku as well, the New one saddly embody the absence of tension or any good plot in DBS, it's all just for fun And so is this"Goku". Sad...
WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP
WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP
WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP
7:26 10:23 12:56 15:47
Old Goku: a general/veteran of 1000 battles with a great sense of responsibility and maturity, yet still kind and a little goofy when appropriate.
New Goku: idiot who feels like he was back when he first met Chichi, not quite Bulma but he's been pushing it there, and goofing off in the most wrong of times.
Crazy cuz he only fought like 20 battles but you'd think he fought 1000 just cuz of how skilled he is.
Yeah finally somebody is making a video about OG Goku
I want GT Goku specifically how he acts while hes in Ssj4
Once to twice a week i think about DBZ Goku. I missed how he was silly yet mature, oblivious to somethings but at least know what the fuck a kiss is (DBS). The speech he gave vegeta before fusing into vegito, all of the dialogue between him n Frieza on namek. Fast forward to the last Dragonball movie they made goku ask Vegeta what he was doing when vegeta was FUCKING MEDITATING WHEN WE SEEN GOKU MEDITATE COUNTLESS TIMES
It really makes me wonder if they read/watched any of the source material before making super or just sped through abridged and based him off that
@@uninformed2167”Don’t fuck with DB fans they haven’t watched the show.” is stepping up to the writers too.
It's simple. It's just bad writing.
I also disliked how Goku in the superhero movie disregarded meditation as a form of training. Like what????
i feel like goku from dragon ball to z and then GT is how goku acts, but then in super they make goku act like a man child even then before
Yea I agree GT is a more logical continuation of Goku's character but that's also continuing a different Goku.
I'm glad we have fan mangas that portrait a more mature goku while having that fun part he always had and showing more of the other Z warriors and not just make it like the show of goku and vegeta like Dbs does.
the whole journey of Z and dragon ball was to see goku grow as a character but fundamentally in his core he never changes. In super its like they reverted what he was like to pre cell arc or even pre frieza arc. all his battles, his triumphs and losses seem to have just been for nothing. I dont know how the writers or anime producers can lose touch of what they build in goku so easily but this is probably one of my biggest reasons as to why super cant match dragon ball Z or why things need to change. I mean the moro arc was basically the cell arc
Goku in Z: Matured, compeleted character, a bit smarter, and ready to be a Master
Goku GT: Literally reached GODHOOD
GOku in Super: Dumb as a bag of sand, back to a student, DON'T KNOW WHAT A KISS IS....
But you see how it's so easy to see this like you don't need to be a super critic to figure this out. Normal everyday fans figured this out but Toei and Toyotaro can't see it.
Well you're both wrong... Toriyama never wanted Goku like that...America made him like that. Go look what he said...man child
this guy read my mind. I've been thinking this for years
I miss the old goku, the power pole goku
the dragon soul goku, set on his goals goku,
I hate the new goku, the straight up fool goku,
the super blue goku, the always lose goku,
I miss the Z goku, charge up his ki goku,
I gotta say at that at that time no one could beat goku
See I respected goku, the one and only goku,
now I watch the goku black arc there’s too many gokus
I used to love goku, I used to love goku
I even had the orange gi, I thought I was goku,
what if this guy made a vid about goku
Called “I miss the old goku”, he really knows goku
that’s all it was goku, we still love goku
and I love you like goku loves kung fu
Just realized that GT goku doesn’t have the issues you mentioned on the video. GT did an amazing job on continuing Goku’s character to the point you can clearly tell that GT goku is a direct upgrade to DBZ goku in every way.
Yeah the problem is the story not the characters besides pan
Jesus Christ, f*** no!
Have you actually WATCHED GT recently? GT Goku may not have the SAME problems as Super Goku, but he was still a mess of a character. His characterization was still quite schizophrenic, the writers flip flopping between child-like intelligence Goku and adult-like intelligence Goku every othe episode, not to mention his edgelord persona when he is in SSJ4 form.
it's the same thing for vegeta, in gt vegeta actually moved on trying to surpass goku.
@narutomaster500 that's a lie. As soon as Burma hinted Vegeta could reach SS4 he was right back in talking about the Dark Horse getting back to the front of the pack.
@@zelohendricks51I mean, if you had the chance to spark your lost goal, most would take it.
That moment when Goku got serious and threatened Gohan to leave Namek before He got upset. That was a rare moment, so it fit very well. I miss that Goku
pink goku. . .
Ironically GT goku, the one in a kids body, was more of an adult than Super Goku. Hell GT Goku felt like Goku grew a bit as a person from Z.
GT Goku actually felt like a veteran martial artist, and Super Saiyan 4 was the cherry on top... It wasn't exactly a form he had to learn, it was simply him gaining more power by going back to his roots. Super's colour fest is so fucking lame.
@@ThePeakOfHumanEvolution69 sorry I dont want red chimp goku back.
well gt goku was older and way stronger after the timeskip
I can never understand why toriyama did this to him😔
Most likely because Toriyama continued to complain about editors changing things and telling him to change things quite often. and even in a recent interview he said he never liked how Goku was in DBZ.
So apparently childish Goku is correct Goku comparied to matured Goku according to Akira.
Probably an example of why editors are a thing.
the problem now is. Akira is so stacked in the business, hes the editor now. and keeps giving toyotaro notes, the current artist of dragonball super manga......
@@vixenxia2475It's very sad to him that his beloved characters is being continually portrait wrong. Obviously his name is on most of Dragon Ball related products and shows, but he has never got to developed his character the way he wanted to.
The first instance come from the fact "his editor" persuaded him to change Dragon Ball tone completely from the original to Z. He was just a fun characters in a story with an actually good sense of humor. Now he's an alien, a hero saving planet, Toriyama himself dislike the idea of Goku being a hero.
The second instance is a famous one where Toriyama decided to put Goku to rest by having Gohan leading the story, the very character has has taken so much time to build up (remember the page at the end of Cell saga where Gohan looks up with a resemblance look of a new deceased Goku in the sky, yeah... that famous page), only for "the audience" to have him bring back Goku to be the main character against, resulting to the "one day trip" back to Earth that last the entire arc, and Gohan who was plot-ready to be the hero of the arc, even pull out the sword of Excalibur as an act of worthiness, to not be the one to save the day.
But still, it was fun to ended Z right there. Until...
Some random production team think it'd be a good idea to make an live action out of it, an evolution I might say. So much that Toriyama has a stroke watching it and ended up going back to create Super as an act of saving his character from a complete butchery.
It was his last resort. It feel kinda bad that such a good character got into this mess. Dragon Ball has grown to become something that its author can't even predict, and who know what's the future of it. Although a lot of people blame Toriyama for a lot of things Dragon Ball related, I'm happy that he is still around to keep what left of the soul that the story has.
@@barry8871Let go of Raditz tail when he's already familiar with people duping him to save their skins (Mercenary Tao)
Thought Bubbles was King Kai despite being given clear instructions of who King Kai is
Thought it was night time in outer space
Needs Piccolo to tell him to remember what Trunks said
Didn't take the heart virus medicine when his symptoms started showing and told no one
Gives a Senzu Bean to Cell
Didn't realize Gohan didn't like fighting and needs Piccolo to tell him this
Had to ask Gohan whether Videl was a girl or not
Didn't kill Majin Buu when he later states he could have
Throws the Potara at Gohan instead of just teleporting and handing it to him, as he does with Vegeta
Crushes and uses the Potara earrings when Kabito Kai provies replacements. He later regrets this and says Potara would have finished Buu
Either you didn't watch DBZ or you have an obvious double standard and that's sad.
Great analysis. This precisely explains the visceral distaste for Super many fans had as it was being released. At first we couldn't quite pinpoint it, thinking it was the artsyle or the score. But mainly it was attributed to the gross character regression that Goku underwent.
Like many people commented, GT was a fantastic interpretation of Gokus character growth in spite of all its flaws. Ss4, for example, perfectly exemplifies gokus commitment to being a protector as the literal catalyst to him fully realizing the transformation was him gazing at planet earth and realizing what he was fighting for. And his demeanor when using the transformation followed suit.
It's even dumber that Goku got laser shot when you realize Blue is a transformative almost enlightened type of state.
It's the state where him getting "caught off guard" makes the LEAST amount of sense too.
Same thing happens in Z with the krilin and the rock but hey, Z is flawless in your eyes,,
@@abhabh6896 Max copium from the peanut gallery.
Goku is literally chilling out with his best friend, and doesn't take near fatal damage from his buddy.
During Res F, Goku is literally still standing over his enemy, the battle had only just "ended" these two are not comparable.
Go cope somewhere else, that fanboyish "You think the other thing is perfect" bullshit will not be tolerated here.
@@abhabh6896Ah yes, because having a calm moment with the friend you have spent nearly your entire life with is the same as a space tyrant who YOU KNOW, _for a fact_ will destroy the earth if you let him.
Absolutely no IQ take, you might actually contend with Super Goku.
@@abhabh6896u super fan boy denialist … it’s because y’all the show dumbs down
@@Grind2Excellence And you dragon ball Z fans don't read for Sh/t
6:02 7:25 10:22 12:55 15:47
Pretty sure I gotta wake up
Also "THE SCENES" 17:57
2:19 4:37
Yes
same
kept on fucking distracting me
Toei be thinking Goku is Luffy lol
Thank You. I've heard people claim the whole Goku giving Moro a senzu bean thing made complete sense because Goku just beat him and could do it again so there's no threat. Like bro, even if he could beat someone with the same level of ease twice in a row why would someone with any level of common sense just let you get back up.
Goku did the same for Cell
@zelohendricks51. Exactly you’re the first person that gets me
Kid named Perfect Cell:
@@zelohendricks51that's different. Honestly if you're gonna look for a comparison Piccolo Jr. would be more apt, because Goku wasn't _sparing_ Cell, just healing him. Even then I feel like the purpose of Cell's Bean was to make Cell feel confident. A tired Cell might just kill Gohan, Goku needs Cell to take the bait.
When Gohan _does_ transform Goku is the one telling him to hurry and finish the job. This isn't about a fair fight. Goku knew when Gohan got backed into a corner and exploded, that he could defeat Cell. He also knows that if _Cell_ got backed into a corner...well, I suppose he _also_ exploded, just in a more literal sense
@@zelohendricks51 not the same, not even close actualy.
He had a plan and a reason to heal cell at that time, with moro he just heals moro because he feels like it, it has nothing behind it, he has no plan nor reason for that, he just feels like giving moro a senzu for no reason at all.
They tried to make a fan service referencing cell with that but its not the same, not at all.
People forgot that Goku intended to kill Cell, I don’t think he expected Cell to jump up after being turned into a semi-torso with legs.
Ive been saying it - they turned our man Goku into Homer Simpson with super powers
Another thing to think of for the Goku black fight is that in the anime Goku used SSJ3 to beat Trunks and he said that was the power needed to beat black and since Trunks had a similar base to him that means that Goku was just fighting him with the same power Trunks was getting no where with that warm up and making things worse
I forgot Trunks said that tbh I would've brought that up.
You nailed it.
yeah, Goku's use of SSJ3 in the Goku Black fight was a power move, but it didn't necessarily guarantee victory. Trunks' base power was similar to Goku's, so it was more about strategy and tactics than raw power in that fight.
Honestly they rehashing a lot of old DBZ moments in different ways and constantly bringing old villains is getting old. Its like they dont know what to do at least GT expanded the universe and the different beings in it smh
only thing gt get right was baby nothing else
@@nickalas666 Lemme guess, you watched the dub?
I miss the old Goku.
The hair of gold Goku.
Eat rice and rolls Goku.
Set on his goals Goku.
having this on the side while gaming and glancing every now and then to the vid and seeing "WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP" is so insane....
I miss the old goku, set on his goals goku