I am starting to think that the way Goku is portrayed in the Manga is due to Akira Toriyama Editor. Just like with George Lucas and the original Trilogy when he allowed other people to direct the movies, I think the Dragon Ball Editor Kept Akira Toriyama in check. The editor is the reason Goku is the way he is in the Original Manga, but in the Super Anime the Editor is not around to keep AT and the anime writers in check. This why Goku is so different in Super
@@sonnywoods6846 that would mean none of DB is canon outside of whatever is in Toriyama's head either Toriyamas an inconsistent and bad writer or the editors literally carried the entire series
I feel like Toriyama wrote Goku as nuanced enough that we understand that he’s generally a pretty selfless person, but he also enjoys testing his limits. Goku fights to protect others AND to test his limits. Toriyama has basically never written Goku into a scenario in which Goku had to pick between a good fight and protecting others. I guess the closest thing would be him letting Vegeta live, which does result in a lot of Namekians dying, but Goku never has to deal with the consequences of that decision. Like Six said, Goku almost always shows concern for the well-being of his friends and innocent bystanders. He isn’t like a superhero who seeks out threats to stop and spends his spare time flying around trying to stop crime, but he also wouldn’t just let an innocent person die or get hurt if he was around to help them.
I think the best example of the poison Toriyama is talking about is more obvious with Vegeta, because he would cast aside other people only because he wants to push himself and prove superiority as a Super Saiyan, like the way he let Cell get his Perfect form, rather than kill him. Vegeta wanted the challenge of beating Cell at his best, as his fight with him prior didnt satisfy him. Its selfishness but not maliciousness. Goku shows something similar as he learns it from Vegeta when he tells Beerus in BOG that he hated that he couldn't achieve the power on his own, and doesn't feel like he earned the power up but will use it because he wanted to fight Beerus, and had to, so that Earth wouldn't be destroyed by him. Goku also giving Cell the senzu was him keeping his bargain with Cell to give him the good fight he promised him, and let him regain his strength after their fight because he wanted to prove that Gohan was that good fight, but he gambled on Gohan doing it, not considering him hesitating the way he did.
Goku still counts as a superhero (imo any character that has a sense of justice and has superpowers count, i.e such as Sonic the Hedgehog), but he just doesn't count as a vigilante which is what most (not all) superheroes tend to be.
marvel heroes made us think how superheros are supposed to be and honestly they're almost all the same which is just lazy writing and autism. dragonball is superior becouse its not about a loner writing about hero stuff its about a genius trying to make the world a better place through media and thats just obvious since a ton of details in dragonball are simply overlooked. dragonball is deeper then it seems. superman and batman and stuff arent. they're just borderline stupid people with problems a person would never care about as much and superpowers that solve everything goku is never good enough to save the world, he just keeps on doing whatever he can to become a better person and stronger aswell and thats barely enough to make it, just like in real life. another obvious thing is dragonball is trying to be unrealistic it seems and most of it makes sense by default which is just genius. marvel and dc try to be realistic with giving everyone a backstory thats supposed to "make sense" but the reality is almost nothing in that media makes sense. i know its a dumb take for fiction but my point is simply dragonball is better fiction then marvel and ESPECIALLY dc goku has complexity and thats why the dumb people cant understand him becouse they think goku is a troll which is just proof that thhey're not worthy for akira toriyama
Goku did kill Freeza and Cold in Future Trunks timeline, so he was not kidding, he learned from his mistake and was not going to let Freeza get away a second time
I mean... We are pretty sure he did. Guess we will never know if in that timeline Freeza and Cold joined the Z fighters and where then killed by the androids. It's an extremely bizarre and unlikely scenario but we really know nothing about this battle.
The panel after Goku "kills" Frieza is one of the best panels of manga ever. I'm my opinion no other single adaptation quite captures the aray of emotions Goku felt. He looks sad, disappointed, and angry all at the same time. Toriyama conveyed this with NO words in a single image. No game, anime, or other adaptation feels as hollow and gut-wrenching as that panel does. It's truly a work of art.
I 100% agree. I bought and read the manga for the first time this year after being a fan for over 20 years. Gokus facial expression on that page blew me away.
@blueNyellow I mean it makes you feel hollow. Empty. And to a degree Friezas "death" here was meaningless. It didn't have to be this way. Goku's Victory here isn't triumphant. It's hollow and empty. It clearly isn't the way he wanted to win.
My take on the cell senzu was that Goku didnt want Cell to feel backed into a corner when Gohan finally let go. We saw the result of that kind of situation when cell self destructed. He wanted Cell to fell confident that he would win so that hopefully when Gohan snapped he didnt get mad and take his toys and go home so to speak. Given Goku's words to gohan about not backing cell into a corner we know this possibility was known to Goku.
i think part of it too is he wanted there to be no excuses. he wanted Gohan to surpass him and to be there to protect the people he cared about since he knew he wouldn't be here forever. But if gohan beat cell after his fight with goku gohan would probably think "I only beat him cause dad weakened him first" so by giving him the senzu he was removing all doubt and excuses for both gohan and cell that no gohan was truly stronger.
@@lesvernornvienas8232 yeah exactly I don't see enough people talking about how Goku was actively looking towards Gohan to be his successor. He needed Gohan to be able to kill Cell at full power to assure him that Gohan was a worthy successor. We all see how that went down, and that leads into the Buu saga where Goku doesn't kill Buu immediately because he wants someone else to be able to do it, and eventually after he does kill Buu he wants Buu to be reincarnated so that he could be trained to be the next savior of earth for when Goku is gone. That's why he goes off to train Uub as soon as he can while leaving his family behind, to him securing the future of the earth is being the best parent he can be.
No amount of time in another world should make you forget how important basics are... He literally doesnt even meditate anymore, he finds it "goofy" that vegeta was just "sitting around" like come on, how can you forget how important spirit and mind is if you were the one drilling it into everyone elses head?
I think they call it flanderization. But it doesn't help that it's essentially the fandom writing the manga/anime. Your first video and this one are on point
What makes goku a hero isn't his conviction to uphold justice and go out of his way to defend the weak, what makes him a hero is the fact that he helps the innocent against the villians if he happens to be passing by. He doesn't like it when people are treated badly, he's more of a passerby type of hero. A true hero doesn't always consider themselves to be one, it's just the results of their actions that define who they are. When it comes to the dub I would say that the og dragonball captured gokus character the best, a good natured man who enjoys the thrill of a challenge.
I don’t think it really matters how Toriyama ‘meant’ for Goku to be depicted. I think the version of Goku most people remember the most fondly is the version of Goku that is made up of ideas from not just Toriyama, but his editors too. Toriyama’s vision of Dragon Ball seemed to have been put on a pedestal for the most recent stuff, which is fine, but I do think that the input of his editors from back in the Z era was mostly beneficial to the series as a whole.
I agree, i like to think that goku, while not being selfless to begin with, turns into a responsible hero in the end. Goku knows his son is in danger, so he trains in a hellish manner where he knows what his defeat would mean, he beats frieza while still having fun fighting, but with all the right reasons without him deciding those reasons. He's a wise master of martial arts, and a hero of the people whom he cares about, for the cell games he acts selfish sometimes but always has his sights on cell, he makes a calculated guess about gohan's potential and gives cell some senzu, after dying to save earth, he decides to not come back because his enemies keep coming after him, and it works up to a point but he's never too far away to let any danger come too close to his loved ones as he's watching from above Goku started from slightly above a normal human and became a god, half because he loved fighting, and the other half because he had to step up when the need arose, and he never backed down, always delivered. He's dependable asf, a genuine hero/savior born from countless struggles with pure heart (even trying to give his enemies second chances).
i think the weird thing to do when you want your main character to be a nuanced neutral character is to give him the kinto un that can only be ridden by those that are pure of heart. you are immediately led to believe goku is a good person no matter what because of it, and a lot of it can be spun to later iterations of him
Or you show him getting hit with and surviving the devilmite beam, which is supposed to take the evil in your heart and make it explode. It makes people think that since this guy has no evil in his heart, he must be a good guy….
@@crimsoncross8823actually, the beam itself doesnt affect Zamasu/Goku Black, since their hearts are pure, but their actions and intentions are what they believe is the right thing, they dont see themselves as evil, they see their actions as justified, so you can still be a "evil person" with a pure heart.
@@crimsonoutdoorsco.9640 I mean what would the extra context be then? Cuz I have heard it argued that Goku doesn’t care about good and evil when that’s seemingly not true (he notes that the Earth has had it’s fair share of bad guys in the past and says that broly isn’t one of them, displaying a knowledge of good and evil in the broly movie).
@@Chris_HT thats just headcanon, the beam hasnt been used on him anywhere in canon so theres no way to tell, the tea in that arc shows if the hearts intentions and thoughts are pure and not clouded with doubt, not if they are good or evil which the beam does determine along with nimbus
I think the biggest issue that people aren't taking into consideration when they defend the senzu bean situation with Moro is that *he did not need to be healed even if you spare him here*. He was damaged up a bit, but still capable of walking, talking, etc. It's really crazy that he felt the need to heal someone who was going to spend their days in prison, like it literally doesn't make sense. Ignore what you think about Goku, or the story itself. Why even heal him when he can be taken to the prison as is? I've been reflecting on this character for a while, and I have to say that while we have the slight differences in opinion, I'm still on the same page. Goku's character has been tarnished. DBS Super Hero is what really sold it for me. You either say he's stupid or that he has dementia (granted, he did hit his head as a kid).
goku knew he was stronger than moro and didn’t calculate for the arm with merus’s data because he didn’t see it still stupid but he had the ability to detain moro if that hadn’t been the case, moro couldn’t even hurt mui goku
Moro was asking for help. After his defeat. Goku wasn't going to be able to ignore that. Especially in an arc where Meerus just highlighted how Goku's mercy was a good thing. Moro wasn't Cell, Piccolo or Vegeta. He was like General White or Frieza instead. It was his responsibility to help. In addition to that unlike every other time where Goku actually really has given someone a sensu bean. He maintained the advantage well after the villain did the double cross. Moro broke his hand even attempting to do anything. The rest was just a matter of happenstance that neither Goku nor Moro knew could occur beforehand l.
I think the scene would have worked better if Moro was at the verge of death, so Goku would have been saving his life in exhange for turning himself in.
@@AstraFulminous Correct me if I’m wrong, but Goku needed the help of the energies of several other people including Uub in order to defeat Merus absorbed Moro, right? He did not maintain the advantage after giving him the senzu bean. But again, this is not the point. Send him to prison WITHOUT senzu beaning him. It’s that simple. You’re not doing anything different. Why is it so hard to understand that regardless of all the character defense, this was a stupid decision?
I dont only miss old goku, I miss Dragonball. The story was never a strong point of the series but they just overdo it. Let's bring Frieza back a 3rd time with a new form. Here have some new Androids. Ah, and Cell needs a comeback too. And through the power of science, some random dude on earth can build Androids on par with a trillion times more powerful beings than the original cell. Ah, and Gohan is not relevant enough, lets just give him a billion times powerup out of nowhere. The Moro Arc was perfection against what comes after it...
Yeah the power scaling got so crazy that once they wanted to finish the series they said “no, make up something new to make us more money”. That and how they made Goku more childish, funny, and dumb to relate more to the shonen audience demographic of teens.
I honestly don't mind them reusing past plot points or past characters to be fair. But I would appreciate it further if they went an extra mile to tell more unique stories or explore other universes or flesh out other characters like in DBS: Super Heroes, that movie was pretty fun to watch.
In your opinion, was a mere human capable of creating androids and cyborgs that surpassed the strength of the galactic emperor and the legendary Super Saiyan not overdoing it?
You are forgetting that a weak scientist made Androids that are somehow stronger than the legendary Super Saiyan. If you want something to gripe about DBS, is probably the same thing you gripe about GT; they had some new things, but they either or not stick the landing.
@@fredv6237im assuming they mean Gamma 1 & 2?? I havent seen the movie and don't really plan too, but if i remember correctly Gero had been literally spying on Goku and friends since the Piccolo Jr saga (or King Piccolo's? post Red Ribbon) and then 20 and 19 got their shit rocked cus they didn't expect Super Saiyans. Unless you mean why 18 and 17 are strong, Id assume for the same reasons, spying. This might be me mixing up TFS but doesnt Trunks also somehow effect the timeline and it made 17 and 18 stronger? like its wonky storytelling but the attempt at an organic reasoning is there.. and Super kind of just doesn't feel as organic imo, its *only* clunky.
Definetely felt more detached after those 7 years . It feels as him going through super is him reaclimating to the way he was before but its a process. However, thats head cannon lol
@@sixfromtokyo Hi Six, I have a video suggestion. I’ve seen a lot of Naruto hate and disrespect going around recently. Stuff like he is the worse of the big 3 or calling him bland midruto. People are hating on his character and his philosophy. It really upsets me the amount of hate he is getting because he is my 3rd favorite superhero only after Ben 10 and Spider-Man. It would be awesome if you made a in-depth video about Naruto’s character like you did with Goku and if he is a good and interesting character or not. I sure it would be great and I will support the video if you want to make it.
This also fits with GT. Goku in GT will often try to talk his opponent out of a fight to the death, but if they don't take the offer, or clearly won't change, he will end them.
toriyama is accurate in that goku is not a 'good' guy. he is pure of heart but goku doesn't view himself as a 'good' guy. he is not self righteous. a lot of self righteous 'good' guys end up doing bad things because the ends justify the means. look at zamasu. he viewed himself as the ultimate good guy but was really just a racist that was committing genocide against all mortals.
On the Buu topic, actually I think Goku wanted him to reincarnate as a good guy because he enjoyed the challenge but also because he recognized that Fat Buu was a good character because of Mr. Satan. He still killed Kid Buu but he wanted to give Buu another chance, but AFTER they killed off his evil side.
I miss how wise Goku felt during the Piccolo Jr. saga. He was serious, but not in the same way he was when he got serious in Z. He felt more like a master martial artist in that saga than he even did while training Gohan. He was able to think about consequences before things happened, and was even mentally and emotionally mature enough to understand why Chi-Chi was upset at the tournament. That's how I wish he was during Z and a better version of Super/GT (both are ass, but imagine if they were both rebooted as one new series with all the best elements carefully planned out).
"Goku was meant to be childish!" Yeah! When he was a child! He's an adult man now and we have literally seen his progression in DBZ and now his obvious regression in Super. "Only in the English dub is Goku a superhero" Time and time again Goku would put the well-being of Earth and his friends before himself or his desires. People say Vegeta was bad for letting Cell become perfect but Super Goku DEFINITELY would have done the same thing. Super Goku is basically the cause of everything bad happening or escalating to dire situations in Super because he is a retard now.
Some degree of reduction of character was done there but dont try to pretend that he didnt have stupid moments in Z. The senzu on cell is still stupid, the wish to revive a being of pure evil in kid buu is stupid, and more. And the R word, really? Holy bigotry filled ableism batman, goku has always been an idiot. He literally hit his head as an infant. That was considered a major turning point on how he didnt turn out like his brother or other saiyan kin. Goku is far from a superman clone or superhero in Z. He was a flawed person in there too. They just translated it differently. Super goku and z goku both did dipshit things, but they only elevated it in super because super is more geared to kids than z was. Next time you try to make a point, try not to be such a bigoted dickhead about it you sack of crap. Notifications are off, good luck replying
Z Goku: Let go of Raditz tail when he's already familiar with people duping him to save their skins (Mercenary Tao) Thought Bubbles was King Kai despite being given clear instructions of who King Kai is Thought it was night time in outer space Needs Piccolo to tell him to remember what Trunks said Didn't take the heart virus medicine when his symptoms started showing and told no one Gives a Senzu Bean to Cell Didn't realize Gohan didn't like fighting and needs Piccolo to tell him this Had to ask Gohan whether Videl was a girl or not Didn't kill Majin Buu when he later states he could have Throws the Potara at Gohan instead of just teleporting and handing it to him, as he does with Vegeta Crushes and uses the Potara earrings when Kabito Kai provies replacements. He later regrets this and says Potara would have finished Buu Either you didn't watch DBZ or you have an obvious double standard and that's sad.
Totally agree. Since the black arc it was clear in my head that super was irredimible and was only going to get worse and worse; and sadly I’ve been right ever since. That’s why right there i just stop caring about the future of the franchise, and i was just glad DBZ is always gonna be there and being untouchable.
Seeing future Trunks loose EVERYTHING (except future Mai) is a hard neck snapping whiplash, especially compared to Gokus pretty much non-existant permanent consequences. The funnier thing is that they didn't even BOTHER to try to revive the future universes with the dragonball because they wanted future Zeno to stay in the present
It's really interesting that you bought up DBS being irredeemable when your pfp is SS4 when Goku is at is mentally best never letting his love for fighting outweigh the safety of others but still sees the good in others when he befriended Fire Shenron. If anything DBGT manages to progress Goku as a character and it really hurts that no one talks about it.
I still think the Moro arc was super good. It's like UI reverted him back and he wanted to try fix things he couldn't with Frieza since Moro couldn't hurt him. Instead of the value of life only, this time it was also the value of not relying on cheap tricks and magic. It also contrasted Vegeta very well since they both handled it completely differently despite both being very similair.
@@albertthepeacock8020upload a video about it. It's never talked about because GT is quite possibly the most Goku centric set of arcs. So he would be the only one to progress.
But I don’t think Toriyama failed. Goku protects the Earth because he’s from there and loves the Earth. His friends and family is there. He’s always stopped the bad guys because they were a hinderance to his goals. And when he was commissioned by someone else to stop a bad guy, he took the “job” because he knew there were strong. He never says “oh he’s a killer? It’s my duty to stop this evil doer!” He always says it sounds fun and he can push himself. That was clear throughout the series to me
Like you guys tell me, who did Goku confront that wasn’t directly involved in getting in the way of what HE wanted to do, or was hurting someone close to him
But is he the guy who'll just walk away if he sees a killer kill someone innocent and cruelly ? Sure I agree that he'll not go out if his way yo hunt down every killer and stop them but will he ignore the ones that coincidently happens in front of him?
keep spittin'. I've been watchin DB since 94 and readin since ~09, if mfs think Super Goku(and alot of the cast for the matter) hasn't regressed as a character and isn't a shell of himself, you don't pay attention. Goku in Super is like if you just look at his character at the MOST surface level possible! Funny enough to say but if you want a return to form for his character go watch GT
I am starting to think that the way Goku is portrayed in the Manga is due to Akira Toriyama's Editor. Just like with George Lucas and the original Trilogy when he allowed other people to direct the movies, I think the Dragon Ball Editor Kept Akira Toriyama in check. The editor is the reason Goku is the way he is in the Original Manga, but in the Super Anime, the Editor is not around to keep AT and the anime writers in check. This why Goku is so different in Super
Yeah, that’s more common than people think. Creatives tend to need exogenous boundaries or else they just get carried away with their ideas. It’s all well and good if someone wants to express themselves, but there’s not much point in publishing art that isn’t tailored to provide a cohesive and focused experience for the people consuming the art. Toriyama in particular isn’t really a shounen battle manga writer, he’s a gag manga writer. He was already famous for writing comedy manga when he started writing Dragon Ball, and you can tell over time that DB gets more and more of a serious tone as the expectations for the series shifted. By the time he got to the Buu arc, he was mostly free to do what he wanted, and so that arc became full of good ideas that go nowhere and a lot of slapstick in serious situations.
The stuff about George Lucas and his editors saving his films is a myth. First because everything is "saved in the edit". That's how you finish the project 😂. And second, George oversaw all the edits. He also was the one who decided to cut the stuff that didn't work. I don't blame you cause I'm sure you're not trying to intentionally revise history. It's a common narrative that gets pushed. I had even believed it for a bit until I looked more into it
Goku from the Cell arc was the best version of Goku. He had fears, he was afraid to die, he question his own abilities and knew he was limited. A more human Goku was amazing touch with the character. Goku refusing to stop Buu will forever be a stain for me. I get his mindset, but Goku punching Gero to stop going on a mass killing spree, to Goku simply saying “nope, don’t need to stop it because it’s not my place.” That forever changed my perspective on the character. Akira did his job very well with getting to question Goku morals after Buu well at least for me.
I thought of it as like pushing a baby bird out the nest so it can fly. It seems cruel, but it works. Goku was basically letting the z fighters be the heroes, since he was dead and he couldn't just show up anytime the earth was in trouble, he needed to know that earth had its own heroes.
it is quite simple , goku is just a normal guy like us who like to fight , not a super hero but if he see someone's life being threaten , he won stay indifferent , he will help cause he knows that is the right thing to do and he can , like any normal person with a sense of moral
With regard to the Moro being given a senzu ordeal, I saw a counter-argument that states it's fine for Goku to give Moro a senzu bean, since he immediately breaks his arm on UI Goku's chest the moment he tries to attack him, which means that Goku knew that Moro stood no chance against him anymore, and was basically no longer a threat. But you bring up an even better point: why give Moro a senzu in the first place? The fight was over, he was already beaten, and his injuries basically amounted to some bruises, a broken horn, a cracked forehead jewel thingy and a missing hand. The simple answer is that the author wanted the fight to continue and for Moro to get UI, so he got the outcome he wanted by contriving Goku into acting like an idiot for no good reason. Goku giving Cell the senzu bean was an honest mistake (and there might be an argument to be made that it was actually the right course of action), born out of him misunderstanding his son's nature, but there's no such justification for what Goku did with Moro.
im guessing toyotaro wanted a physical representation of goku's mindset at the time but having moro brink of death would have been better. Or he could have just had moro getting merus's data heal him. Maybe he wanted the cool ass chest breaking moro's hand (?) but then u could do something like moro tries to tag him one last time while he and jaco are talking
Moro was so weak before goku giving him a sensu bean, he couldn't even removed the small boulder that fell on him. So how's jaco gonna take him on prison when he couldn't even barely move?
@@ferrucciocaracciuolo8139What about when GT Goku begged Myuu to activate Baby, what about Goku taking a bubble bath in hell messing around while the earth was being taken over by ressurected villains, why was he overreacting because he had to sit in a hospital room, why is he stealing food from the villagers on other planet's? Why is he constantly shooting energy blast at 17 knowing he's absorbing it? GT Goku is trash 👎
Wow knowing the specific manga details of how Goku was really feeling at the end of the Frieza fight (trembling w/ sad face) made me appreciate that part of the story a lot more. Knowing that bit of info also makes it more consistent for me story-wise, that Frieza was still able continue living even after being blasted by Goku. The best part of this is we still get to see Goku being true to his nature, and Frieza gets to live a little longer only to get annihilated by Super Saiyan AGAIN!
It's a basic fact of fiction that the author's idea almost never makes it to the page on an ideal for. The character he wanted to write is harder to make interesting. In reality, if he wanted Goku to be a person who just wanted a stronger challenge all the time he should have made him fight both villans and heros because that how that works. Like he goes to Namak Frieza's nemesis Alomstfreza is their and asks Goku to team up and Goku insist instead on fighting him even if I makes stopping Freza impossible. The reason Goku became a hero is that not trying to help people and not having a code would make him a villan at least by allowing evil to happen and that not what he intended either.
I hate how everyone in the db community defends the argument of what toriyama originally wanted goku to be. He also wanted android 19 and 20 to be the big bad of the android saga. He also wantes to end the series after frieza saga. He also wanted vegito blue to not be a thing. He also wanted jiren to not be as strong as he is.
It's been a minute since i read the moro stuff, so forgive my monke brain if i misremember things. But a possible explanation for the senzu, not saying id agree, could be that at the time it was kiiinda like a cell situation where goku knew full well thag moro legit just... couldn't win, cause moro tried all the dirty tricks he had and Goku didnt get hit once in the entire thing before that. The main difference being this time goku knew the person in charge of taking down moro was willing to do it if things came to that because Goku himself was doing it. You could say goku thought that, since he did win fair and square, he figured moro would also have to see that and as Goku had stopped all prior attempts to eat the world during the skirmish goku figured his overwhelming power would force moro to understand his options were: die or face his time in prison. Based on what he says in the small time where he leaves UI in the middle of the fight he seems like he kinda wants to be proven wrong that some people just have to die, that even people like moro can be forced to see reason, goku was just wrong. Least, thats the best argument i can think of off the top of my head, so... prolly even not that good, hah. Personally i think it's kiiinda just seems like more super wheele spinning but part of me hopes theres something im just nor seeing.
The pure of heart needed for riding the nimbus showed it being the good pure of heart not the single minded purpose type. So Toriyama messed up in the very beginning of the series.
Man I miss the old Goku. Also, I appreciate the content you've been putting out on Goku. We need more critical thinkers like you in the community. Dragon ball has played a big role in my child hood, and I absolutely dislike what they've done to Goku's character. Honestly, it is a shame to have one of the most influential character in fiction and then ruin his character completely. Vegeta too.
It sounds like Toriyama's depiction of Goku was supposed to be more like Luffy from One Piece. Luffy fights because he loves to fight. He doesn't usually care for any possible casualties that he would be involved with UNLESS it puts those he cares about in severe danger. Those people are usually his friends who can't handle themselves, as well as people he respects and their valued property and/or citizens... and also those who promised him food. If any of these people need his help because of something tragic, he won't comfort them, and instead advances to resolve the issue with his fists. I think the major issue between Luffy and Goku's situation in regards to the way Toriyama wanted Goku to be depicted is, the power. Luffy can achieve this stuff without having to worry about him or his opponent tearing the whole island or country anew because their powers don't usually impact a huge area at a destructive level. The goals of Toriyama's depiction can be achieved way easier this way. However, Toriyama kind of wrote himself into a wall when it comes to his depiction of Goku. His characters powers are far too immense to be used around society, and so he has Goku lead the villains away from civilization to a barren wasteland, 19 and 20 being prime examples of this. Even with Goku wanting to stay dead after Cell, while I loved that so much, it doesn't support his depiction, because Goku is being deprived of his passion to fight for the sake of humanity (and this is before he knew he'd be able to satisfy his passion in the afterlife). Then the Buu saga itself opened up a lot of cans where Goku's often shown being heroic over his passion. Dragon Ball Super gives Goku the chance to show less heroicness because he often fights in worlds where he doesn't need to worry about causalities, and even then, Goku's actions line up more with Toriyama's depiction just in general, such as when he fought Beerus in the city, but it's too late now. We've gone through Dragon Ball and Z where we see Goku develop into a heroic warrior, and he's at fault for writing him in the way he didn't want to write him. To suddenly change his character completely in the sequel series to fit your depiction will result in an inconsistency that's so big, it makes all of Z feel irrelevant. There's nothing else to say but, Toriyama messed up. He failed to write Goku in the way he depicted him. To us, the fans, Z Goku is beloved to us while Super Goku is somebody entirely different. DBZ is our Goku and DBS is Toriyama's Goku.
I miss old Goku too, I literally was 2 when my sister would put Z on to put me to sleep so Goku is a special character to me and it actually physically hurts seeing what they are doing to him. I never saw the manga only but 2 volumes but I plan on getting it to relive the joy of his story. I’m never getting super tho, I’d rather throw it into the sun then buy it. 😂
3:08 dude, I just realized that's ALL he does on Super. Like literally no villain in DBS ACTUALLY damages Goku's friends (to the extent they did before), they are a multiversal threat RATHER than personal threat to Goku's relatives. They do threaten them but none actually get close to a deep emotional scar
In defense of the Buu saga: Goku is obssessed with finding a new guardian for earth because he is only there for one day.And you can see he was dissapointed with Gohan not reaching his potiential because he thought that earth needs a protector so he looks to Goten and Trunks but they are too young thats when at the last chapter when Vegeta tells Goku when he was collecting energy for the spirit bomb that he needs to let the people of earth save themselves sometimes because Goku has done it so many times before.
It goes back to Dragon Ball, too. I mean when that little kid’s dad dies and he goes out of his way to avenge and revive him. And then throughout the series his power ups and fights stem from him avenging others.
I completely disagree because Goku has always been about mercy and giving people second chances. A better comparison is vegeta. He was very evil but Goku let him live. He gave Moro the senzu bean NOT for no reason at all. It was the only way Goku could be sure of Moros intentions. If he was actually going to be good or just lying about it because he was weak. Goku knew he could beat him again if he had to. This is not the problem with Goku. The real change is how dumb and immature he is now. This is the only mature thing he's done in super. It really started in dragon ball when Eighter told Goku not to kill white. He learned mercy then. So for him not to do it anymore would be regressing the character. Goku doesn't kill people unless he absolutely feels he has too. Even Frieza he held back that final shot.
Man, seeing those manga panels from z, i say it still very much holds up even against modern shounen mangas. Its beautiful. The action is shard and has impact. Six is spitting facts. Sometimes i wonder like, are people even reading the same manga? Lol
Out of all of these i have more of a problem with him sparing frieza than him giving cell a senzu bean. I hate the "you cant kill them because youll be just as bad as them" trope thats been done so much even before dragon ball. Killing a genoicidal conqueror that always looked down on people lower than him would not make him as awful, not to mention him coming back and almost destroying earth.
Buu saga manga art was starting to get a bit rough looking, I know akira was absolutely exhausted and tired of doing the series, that probably effected how he talked about it going foward .
Goku to me was a character that always wanted to achieve a total victory. What I mean by that is he wants to win, fair and square. All the times he 'saved' people were just a happy instance of right place right time, of course he's not going to callously let people die. He also saw it as pointless for these ultra powerful enemies to kill innocents or people beneath them in power. He let Vegeta go, because he saw a potential rematch and he wasn't satisfied by the hollow victory they got over him. Frieza basically killed himself (or so we thought.) hence his dissatisfaction. He pushed his ideals onto Gohan, he wanted Gohan to destroy Cell at his maximum power level, this was a huge flaw and a weak point for his character. Just because he wanted that type of victory doesn't mean the others or Gohan did, they wanted peace and to finish Cell at any cost. Gohan didn't even want to fight to begin with. Hence why Piccolo's speech hit him hard and he realized his mitake. He even pulls this shit in the Buu Saga, he could have easily finished Fat Buu but he figured a dead guy shouldn't win the day, his 7 year old son should..lmao. Another huge miscalculation. I love Goku but his obsession with winning with honor or a total victory has cost him his life and endangered the planet itself.
Hi cool vid I agree with most of your points about super Goku, But I do think the Moro stuff does kind of make sense. My reason for thinking this is that Goku never liked killing people even if they where pure evil, so him trusting his instincts like what he has been learning through all of super makes sense to me he is giving Moro every opportunity to change his way's even gave him a sensu bean to show that no matter what you do you can not win. And when Moro still rejects him Goku then decides has to kill him. I think him stopping and talking to Moro is some-what true to his character or at least an evolution of his character about how he trusts his instincts and because of that he is usually right, Like with piccolo to extent even though at the time he did to keep kami alive I don't believe that to be the main reason he did it, his true reason was to fight him again in the future and it turned out alright. And even more so with Vegeta, at the time he had no reason to spare him and he was the biggest threat they had met and it turned out alright in the end. SO Goku trusting his instincts have been mostly consistent with his character and I think if they continue this path Super Goku will be in a better place and closer to a Z or more developed Z Goku
Just because Goku fought for his own interest in fighting doesn't mean he doesn't fight to defend others. It just means he doesn't go out specifically for justice, but will fight for his own friends or stop bullies. Kid Goku was all about stopping bad people doing bad things he'd see along the way, which they often mistreated people nice to him or him directly. Goku doesn't like to kill or see innocents being killed, especially after meeting Android 8. Like...Goku giving a Senzu to Cell he started to realize was a MISTAKE!
the senzu for cell was important psychologically, think about it. cell was fatigued after Goku, Goku knew that Gohan was even stronger than him as a ssj. but cell was unpredictable, there is no telling what he had done if mastered ssj gohan was actually willing to fight seriously. I assume he would have been forced to unleash his full power, and at that point it would have been lights out for our heroes.
Goku gave moro a sensu bean because he knew that even if moro heals he would still be able to beat him this is shown as goku tanks moro's punch like it was nothing of course eventually moro fused with the earth but everyone makes mistakes the way you are saying it your making it like DBS Goku is a terrible and completely different character with no redeeming qualities
Yeah idk bro. The Toriyama quote couldn't be more clear, DBS Goku is clearly in line with the same stated intentions Goku had all along, a Protagonist that isn't actually good but just "pure"
Yo~! A well made and organized video. And yes I watched it from start to finish. Thanks for the upload. 😉👍 P.S. I should mention though that although I've never been a Goku fan, and found him annoying as an MC, I found him to be even worse in Super. To me, the character became unbearable to watch and gave up on the series. 😅
I think when Goku said he was gonna clobber Frieza for good, was because Frieza decided to attack Earth. Not because he survived. But BECAUSE he survived and the first thing he did was attack Earth. At this point Frieza was just an animal with rabbies that needs to be put out of his misery. For his and everyone else's sake. Goku pov: Neeeeeeh. So you dont wanna learn?! Aight aight. (Kills Frieza) Im a good guy but there is a limit to kindness.
You forgeted Goku saving Vegeta is exactly the same as Moro. Same with reincarnating Majin Boo. Goku thinking almost every villain can be a rival is something that has been problematic since DB manga and post Kami teachings. And Goku... Never trully regret about the Senzu beam on Cell. He always trusted his son just using his true power on Supersaiyan 1 could obliterate Cell with enought selfconfidence, which not seeing that confidence Lack on Gohan what trully regreted. About Kid Boo and Pothara earrings...Goku said he wanted to fight Boo with his own power, not about having a fair fight not fusing. The isn't fused anymore is for recalcing Kid Boo is weaker than his other fusion states including Super Boo and that they can handle him no problem. Against Yakon Goku didn't put him down inmediately. He first fighted as base toying around when he could had defeated Yakon, them uses Supersaiyan while extremelly contained to iluminate the scenary making Yakon absorb that becoming over 4 times stronger and refuses to fight alongside Gohan so Yakon can absorb anymore energy for trying as a contained Supersaiyan 2 to make him explote from absorbing Ki even if he didn't knowed if that was gonna work. The Fat Boo thing is the same as Moro, Goku having an extremelly dangerous view of things putting the universe in danger just because thinked that as a dead shouldn't act there even when was possible
@@Mavuika_Gyaru Noup, all I said was based on the manga. Even Goku himself states several times he just regrets not noticing Gohan true feelings at the end
@@antoinepolnareff8970 The vegeta and Moro situations are nothing alike. Goku let vegeta go so that they could fight again in the future. Goku planned on imprisoning Moro after giving him the senzu bean. If goku wanted a rival out of moro then he wouldn’t have wanted to imprison him in a place he wouldn’t be let free.
Your synopsis of Goku's (real) character is spot on but to this day no one acknowledges two major things that also reflect the mark of genius and moral depth of character Goku embodies (credit to the genius writing of OG DBZ) and thats both the senzu bean moment and both when Goku doesn't attempt to kill fat Buu off and when he refuses to use the potara earrings alongside Vegeta. 1. The senzu bean. Goku is a warrior with the ideal genes of a (pretty much) perfect warrior race first and foremost and he is also Gohans father. He understood that because Gohan cares so much, even though he had everything it took to defeat Cell, he would likely allow Cell to get the better of him if he felt there was any reason to take the fight lightly. Gohan is not as experienced as the rest of the Z fighters and needed that pressure, that push that only Cell could give him to get him to break his limit into SSJ2 although the pressure of possibly being wrong nonetheless as a father as well as with all the stakes on the line was still overwhelming for even Goku as he is still just a man/mortal and might not have made the right call after all (which he did make the right call). 2. At this point Goku was experienced with death and understood that all things shall pass. In his wisdom he knew there needed to be successors to succeed him, to defend the earth, to continue to protect everything he cherishes long after he's gone and if his attempt to finish fat Buu off succeeded, he would be stealing the opportunity for those successors to grow capable of rising to the challenge the next time push came to shove. Also there was a chance of him not being able to finish him off too, but he still used what precious time he had left to ensure the kids would know the fusion technique before he passed. 3. As for the potara, he even said it himself to the supreme kai after everything that has transpired that he's going to be a little selfish this time and abide by Vegeta's way of doing things because there's a time where winning by any means necessary is the right thing to do and a time where fighting for one's honor, one's pride, one's principles even at the chance of death is the moral right for if they should lose as they are after everyone else has already had their shot and failed, maybe this is the best everyone could measure up to after all. Fighting as they are, depending on the universe and succeeding proved once again that everything is worth fighting for...
I know we’re focused on the latter/post saiyan reveal half of Dragon Ball, but let’s not forget Goku pulled up on Demon King Piccolo for blood. Put a hole in him.
As someone who was rather mixed on your other video on this topic I think this video did a really great job at backing up your point and is generally a massive improvement, at least to me. I am someone who was always a defender of the Moro senzu bean scene, but I think that when compared one to one with the Frieza scene it's definitely clear that some of Goku's depth of character from that saga was lost. I think the scenes are extremely similar but the fact is that Goku had already gone through this all with Frieza and learned from how that went. I still think the scene of Goku powered down to base talking to moro is one of my favorite scenes in dbs by far, but it's definitely a bit off compared to how Z Goku used to act. I will say though that Goku's mindset in general has changed a lot since then, especially with his ultra instinct training, and I really think the Moro scene would have been received much better if Goku wasn't written inconsistently and like an idiot for the rest of DBS. I also think that because of how Frieza acted in the TOP, Goku might have regained a bit of that belief that even the worst people can learn when given enough time. Really it's not that this scene is terrible, it's just that it doesn't solve the characterization issues that DBS is full of before and after this arc. I really hope going forward they stick to the Goku we saw from chapters 62-65 of DBS at the very least.
What I always say about Super is that is not a sequel, it's a parody of DBZ, willing to sacrifice plot/character/lore just for the sake of nostalgia rush through cheap references to things that happened on the show (Senzu to enemy, Yamcha pose, Vegeta explosion) and jokes from outside (Popo threatening Vegeta, Goku stupidity) Toriama gave up on the show a long time ago, even before it ended. Toyotaro is an ok artist that don't have the name nor the skill to make a diference. And the higher ups don't care on what is being made as long it print money. Dragon Ball have little to no chance to dug itself out of the hole it is at the moment.
I always thought Goku didn't look as sad in the anime during Frieza's "Death" but I did feel like he didn't really wanna kill him. He doesn't look mad... In the anime to me... More like... Disappointed that Frueza didn't take the grace given to him.
Super feels so half baked it feels like im living off of the memories of Z because they just hand out power ups they trashed how you get ssj and people who had a half bake story with little to no development be giving goku and vegeta who trained with an angel and got god ki bro they be giving them hands i mean how we got piccolo getting stronger than ssb and ssbe from earth's dragon ball wish? I hope they fix the writing
@@UnwantedGhost1Well, that's obvious he will. But will Naruto ever get new Power ups like Goku or he'll really retired for good? Now that's a question. I think Naruto will get power up, one Last crazy fight Against Outsutsuki and die with honor.
''After Goku gave frieza energy, he's still died cut in half out of energy'' TF He's not 🤣he even survived a planet explosion while unconscious after that 🤣🤣🤣
I wouldn't see an issue with Frieza losing a fight to Bulma if it was the result of a machine that Bulma created that Frieza dramatically underestimated the abilities of. Like something that could transport him across the universe or trap him in a capsule that effectively puts him into cryosleep. Frieza has been known to let attacks hit him if he thinks they will have no effect and so it would be perfectly within his character to not dodge a seemingly harmless attack that then turns out to be able to defeat him in an unconventional manner.
Goku 100% is willing to keep the world safe, and clearly cares about justice and other people. Its pretty simple actually, Toriyamas idea of goku became less heroic in his mind as time went on. Goku is hero hes just not superman. Goku doesnt stop a bank robbery, but he also wont just abide seeing people die. Gokus morality is very much reactionary, unless a threat is so worryisome he has to be proactive. Basically Goku saves the World from bad guys that put the world or large portions of people that hes aware of in danger. AND Gokus a better character for being heroic. Because the character toriyama wanted to right is super goku, and super goku blows.
Six why do you like the fact that goku is open to interpretation. Do you not like characters with less openness. Also what about that Sasuke vs Ichigo video 🤔
exactly, he was gassed after the fight Goku, and Goku knew that Gohan was even stronger than him as mastered ssj. If Gohan had been willing to fight seriously against a cell in that state, it would have forced cell to unleash his full kept hidden power and I don't see how it would have gone from here to cause anger in Gohan to trigger the ssj2 transformation.
I think some of the criticisms are reasonable especially from people like you that actually analyze and I can say I think Super Goku isn’t the same from Z only cause the tension wasn’t there for most the series so he is more lax
even when super had some serious moments you knew they were going to either use dragon balls have whis rewind or beerus save the moment OR goku pulling more power out of his ass also erase entire arc like future trunks also also "yeah we knew the winner of tournament would wish to bring back all universes"
@@ryszakowyyea I think where they fucked up was letting us know that the ending of Z was gonna be the same. They should’ve just kept that to themselves and made it seem like it was gonna get retconned. That killed a lot of the tension
@@ryszakowy like the original series doesn’t do that? most arcs only had stakes because of things that couldn’t be fixed by the dragon balls(who would be defeated anyway because they’re the bad guy and the bad guy never permanently wins in dragon ball) there are many issues with super but that’s a flaw with dragon ball in general, not super
What I don't like about Super fanbois is that they'll use the Toriyama quote to justify Goku being a bumbling idiot who couldn't tell left from right. Liking to fight strong guys and not being an idiot aren't mutually exclusive.
Iv always thought that goku giving cell a sensu was sense he always planed for gohan to beat cell and be the new protector of eath but he didnt think that he thought a weakended cell would push gohan to his true potential but he fought cell first because of gokus want to fight strong opponents
You Think We Could Ever Get A Comparison In Power Between The Z Movie Timeline And The Anime Timeline? Alot Of People Don't Understand The Huge Power Gaps At Times Between The Two Universes
There's two things about what Six said don't add up. Did Goku Moronbecause he wanted to fightt him as himself and not under the Galactic Patrol. By not fighting as a Galactic Patrol officer, he could fight Moro at full strength before Meerus broke his crystals. Second, Goku could fight Moro as himself and not as a protector of the universe. Goku is just the protector of his friends on Earth. You could say the first fight with Moro was revenge on Moro for Meerus death as they were brothers in arm as a Galacic Patrol officers. When Goku states, "I'll fight as an Earthling means" I'm now fighting as myself and not for the Universe. In other words, I got my hits in for Meerus, now let me kill you for trying to eat my home. And that's Goku as himself. I don't think Toyotaro(notice I didn't right Toriyama as I think Toriyama was probably assisting with DBS Superhero at this time and most) dumbs doIwn Goku in the manga. It's as I stated, Toyotaro wanted to bring some swag back to Goku by having Moro break his ownarm by punching Goku's abs, but he also wanted to throw some nods to the Cell Arc. Toyotaro is a fan artist first. Plus, he doesn't forget stuff like Toriyama. The difference hear between Goku in the Moro Arc and Gohan in the Cell Arc is that Gohan wanted Cell to suffer. Goku wanted Moro dead on his terms, which was secretly by his own hands or letting Moro shock him by going with the Galactic Patrol. Also, Goku didn't fight Moro out of anger because he would lose his MUI form. The point was to remind everyone that Goku was never a hero and Toyotaro reminds us every fight he draws in the Manga, but it's not written as stupidly as in the Anime.
For all of Gokus attempt to "save" Frieza in Namke he gets spit on his face. And after learning learning that not every evil strong person can be saved, in the next arc Cell saga he immediatly goes for the kill Cell even though imo Cell should have been the easiest in theory to be saved.
Z Goku: *heals Piccolo jr and Frieza and will let them do what they want after murdering and torturing innocent ppl and his friends* Z Fans: *WHOAW JUST WHOAW Goku is the best* Super Goku: *heals moro so he could go back to prison well and to honor his master's (meerus) belief* Z Fans: *Z Goku will never do this* 😂🤣😂🤣 🤦♂
He heals piccolo so that Kami doesn’t die and he gives Frieza energy because he didn’t want to be like him. You are doing the thing where you are leaving at important context for why Goku did certain things in z….
playwt.link/six
Goku is a fighter. Not a lover.
Fake six lol
I am starting to think that the way Goku is portrayed in the Manga is due to Akira Toriyama Editor. Just like with George Lucas and the original Trilogy when he allowed other people to direct the movies, I think the Dragon Ball Editor Kept Akira Toriyama in check. The editor is the reason Goku is the way he is in the Original Manga, but in the Super Anime the Editor is not around to keep AT and the anime writers in check. This why Goku is so different in Super
No piss off sellout
@@sonnywoods6846 that would mean none of DB is canon outside of whatever is in Toriyama's head
either Toriyamas an inconsistent and bad writer or the editors literally carried the entire series
I feel like Toriyama wrote Goku as nuanced enough that we understand that he’s generally a pretty selfless person, but he also enjoys testing his limits. Goku fights to protect others AND to test his limits. Toriyama has basically never written Goku into a scenario in which Goku had to pick between a good fight and protecting others. I guess the closest thing would be him letting Vegeta live, which does result in a lot of Namekians dying, but Goku never has to deal with the consequences of that decision.
Like Six said, Goku almost always shows concern for the well-being of his friends and innocent bystanders. He isn’t like a superhero who seeks out threats to stop and spends his spare time flying around trying to stop crime, but he also wouldn’t just let an innocent person die or get hurt if he was around to help them.
Which makes him a person
I think the best example of the poison Toriyama is talking about is more obvious with Vegeta, because he would cast aside other people only because he wants to push himself and prove superiority as a Super Saiyan, like the way he let Cell get his Perfect form, rather than kill him. Vegeta wanted the challenge of beating Cell at his best, as his fight with him prior didnt satisfy him. Its selfishness but not maliciousness. Goku shows something similar as he learns it from Vegeta when he tells Beerus in BOG that he hated that he couldn't achieve the power on his own, and doesn't feel like he earned the power up but will use it because he wanted to fight Beerus, and had to, so that Earth wouldn't be destroyed by him.
Goku also giving Cell the senzu was him keeping his bargain with Cell to give him the good fight he promised him, and let him regain his strength after their fight because he wanted to prove that Gohan was that good fight, but he gambled on Gohan doing it, not considering him hesitating the way he did.
Goku still counts as a superhero (imo any character that has a sense of justice and has superpowers count, i.e such as Sonic the Hedgehog), but he just doesn't count as a vigilante which is what most (not all) superheroes tend to be.
None of that has anything to do with his difference and change in personality…
marvel heroes made us think how superheros are supposed to be and honestly they're almost all the same which is just lazy writing and autism.
dragonball is superior becouse its not about a loner writing about hero stuff its about a genius trying to make the world a better place through media and thats just obvious since a ton of details in dragonball are simply overlooked.
dragonball is deeper then it seems.
superman and batman and stuff arent. they're just borderline stupid people with problems a person would never care about as much and superpowers that solve everything
goku is never good enough to save the world, he just keeps on doing whatever he can to become a better person and stronger aswell and thats barely enough to make it, just like in real life.
another obvious thing is dragonball is trying to be unrealistic it seems and most of it makes sense by default which is just genius.
marvel and dc try to be realistic with giving everyone a backstory thats supposed to "make sense" but the reality is almost nothing in that media makes sense.
i know its a dumb take for fiction but my point is simply dragonball is better fiction then marvel and ESPECIALLY dc
goku has complexity and thats why the dumb people cant understand him becouse they think goku is a troll which is just proof that thhey're not worthy for akira toriyama
Goku did kill Freeza and Cold in Future Trunks timeline, so he was not kidding, he learned from his mistake and was not going to let Freeza get away a second time
I mean... We are pretty sure he did.
Guess we will never know if in that timeline Freeza and Cold joined the Z fighters and where then killed by the androids.
It's an extremely bizarre and unlikely scenario but we really know nothing about this battle.
@@mesdecent8051we do
@@mesdecent8051 Trunks stated he did
@@mesdecent8051 Future Trunks confirmed that Future Goku did kill Freeza and Cold. Please, rewatch the Anime.
The panel after Goku "kills" Frieza is one of the best panels of manga ever. I'm my opinion no other single adaptation quite captures the aray of emotions Goku felt. He looks sad, disappointed, and angry all at the same time. Toriyama conveyed this with NO words in a single image. No game, anime, or other adaptation feels as hollow and gut-wrenching as that panel does. It's truly a work of art.
I agree with you, the way his hand trembles and the conclusion of such a great fight ending in that way is honestly legendary
I 100% agree. I bought and read the manga for the first time this year after being a fan for over 20 years. Gokus facial expression on that page blew me away.
Hollow? That's like saying shallow. It's weak and meaningless.
@blueNyellow I mean it makes you feel hollow. Empty. And to a degree Friezas "death" here was meaningless. It didn't have to be this way. Goku's Victory here isn't triumphant. It's hollow and empty. It clearly isn't the way he wanted to win.
@@lightspeed4615 gotcha. I understand now.
My take on the cell senzu was that Goku didnt want Cell to feel backed into a corner when Gohan finally let go. We saw the result of that kind of situation when cell self destructed. He wanted Cell to fell confident that he would win so that hopefully when Gohan snapped he didnt get mad and take his toys and go home so to speak.
Given Goku's words to gohan about not backing cell into a corner we know this possibility was known to Goku.
THANK YOU!
i think part of it too is he wanted there to be no excuses. he wanted Gohan to surpass him and to be there to protect the people he cared about since he knew he wouldn't be here forever. But if gohan beat cell after his fight with goku gohan would probably think "I only beat him cause dad weakened him first" so by giving him the senzu he was removing all doubt and excuses for both gohan and cell that no gohan was truly stronger.
@@lesvernornvienas8232 YES!
@@lesvernornvienas8232 yeah exactly I don't see enough people talking about how Goku was actively looking towards Gohan to be his successor. He needed Gohan to be able to kill Cell at full power to assure him that Gohan was a worthy successor. We all see how that went down, and that leads into the Buu saga where Goku doesn't kill Buu immediately because he wants someone else to be able to do it, and eventually after he does kill Buu he wants Buu to be reincarnated so that he could be trained to be the next savior of earth for when Goku is gone. That's why he goes off to train Uub as soon as he can while leaving his family behind, to him securing the future of the earth is being the best parent he can be.
No amount of time in another world should make you forget how important basics are... He literally doesnt even meditate anymore, he finds it "goofy" that vegeta was just "sitting around" like come on, how can you forget how important spirit and mind is if you were the one drilling it into everyone elses head?
Goku literally meditated before coming back to the living world 😅
@@Mavuika_Gyaru We are talking about super goku. Was I not clear?
@@Mavuika_Gyaru ^ genuine question btw.
I think they call it flanderization.
But it doesn't help that it's essentially the fandom writing the manga/anime.
Your first video and this one are on point
What makes goku a hero isn't his conviction to uphold justice and go out of his way to defend the weak, what makes him a hero is the fact that he helps the innocent against the villians if he happens to be passing by. He doesn't like it when people are treated badly, he's more of a passerby type of hero. A true hero doesn't always consider themselves to be one, it's just the results of their actions that define who they are. When it comes to the dub I would say that the og dragonball captured gokus character the best, a good natured man who enjoys the thrill of a challenge.
Bro is back again for the smoke from the "You don't understand Goku" community
Can't wait to hear from those guys
They should rebrand to the "I don't understand Goku" community, or "I didn't understand Goku until now, sorry King" community.
Anyone who fully understands goku is mentally broken and owns too many calculators.
@@sixfromtokyo”DBS Goku is what Toriyama-sensei wanted the character to be like ☝️🤓”
@@Whoisthatguy906You aren’t the person your father sensei wanted his son to be like 🤓☝️
I don’t think it really matters how Toriyama ‘meant’ for Goku to be depicted. I think the version of Goku most people remember the most fondly is the version of Goku that is made up of ideas from not just Toriyama, but his editors too.
Toriyama’s vision of Dragon Ball seemed to have been put on a pedestal for the most recent stuff, which is fine, but I do think that the input of his editors from back in the Z era was mostly beneficial to the series as a whole.
I agree, i like to think that goku, while not being selfless to begin with, turns into a responsible hero in the end. Goku knows his son is in danger, so he trains in a hellish manner where he knows what his defeat would mean, he beats frieza while still having fun fighting, but with all the right reasons without him deciding those reasons. He's a wise master of martial arts, and a hero of the people whom he cares about, for the cell games he acts selfish sometimes but always has his sights on cell, he makes a calculated guess about gohan's potential and gives cell some senzu, after dying to save earth, he decides to not come back because his enemies keep coming after him, and it works up to a point but he's never too far away to let any danger come too close to his loved ones as he's watching from above
Goku started from slightly above a normal human and became a god, half because he loved fighting, and the other half because he had to step up when the need arose, and he never backed down, always delivered. He's dependable asf, a genuine hero/savior born from countless struggles with pure heart (even trying to give his enemies second chances).
as much as people like to dunk on editors one should note that they are essential tard wranglers
i think the weird thing to do when you want your main character to be a nuanced neutral character is to give him the kinto un that can only be ridden by those that are pure of heart. you are immediately led to believe goku is a good person no matter what because of it, and a lot of it can be spun to later iterations of him
Or you show him getting hit with and surviving the devilmite beam, which is supposed to take the evil in your heart and make it explode. It makes people think that since this guy has no evil in his heart, he must be a good guy….
@@crimsoncross8823actually, the beam itself doesnt affect Zamasu/Goku Black, since their hearts are pure, but their actions and intentions are what they believe is the right thing, they dont see themselves as evil, they see their actions as justified, so you can still be a "evil person" with a pure heart.
@@crimsonoutdoorsco.9640 I mean what would the extra context be then? Cuz I have heard it argued that Goku doesn’t care about good and evil when that’s seemingly not true (he notes that the Earth has had it’s fair share of bad guys in the past and says that broly isn’t one of them, displaying a knowledge of good and evil in the broly movie).
@@Chris_HT thats just headcanon, the beam hasnt been used on him anywhere in canon so theres no way to tell, the tea in that arc shows if the hearts intentions and thoughts are pure and not clouded with doubt, not if they are good or evil which the beam does determine along with nimbus
Super Goku gets trashed bc as fans who’ve watched him grow we saw him regress💀 it was like a slap in the face tbh
Regress how
@@primalgod7952legit question? Or a rhetorical one with an excuse for how we literally watched and can tell he regressed?
@@_Mikeebeed_ In what way shape or form you seeing something doesn’t mean it’s true have your own thoughts and opinions on things
@@_Mikeebeed_ your saying he regressed but don’t explain how and when you do it’s nonsense so let’s here it how did he regress
@@primalgod7952watch the video🤦♂️
I think the biggest issue that people aren't taking into consideration when they defend the senzu bean situation with Moro is that *he did not need to be healed even if you spare him here*. He was damaged up a bit, but still capable of walking, talking, etc. It's really crazy that he felt the need to heal someone who was going to spend their days in prison, like it literally doesn't make sense. Ignore what you think about Goku, or the story itself. Why even heal him when he can be taken to the prison as is?
I've been reflecting on this character for a while, and I have to say that while we have the slight differences in opinion, I'm still on the same page. Goku's character has been tarnished. DBS Super Hero is what really sold it for me. You either say he's stupid or that he has dementia (granted, he did hit his head as a kid).
goku knew he was stronger than moro and didn’t calculate for the arm with merus’s data because he didn’t see it
still stupid but he had the ability to detain moro if that hadn’t been the case, moro couldn’t even hurt mui goku
Moro was asking for help. After his defeat. Goku wasn't going to be able to ignore that. Especially in an arc where Meerus just highlighted how Goku's mercy was a good thing. Moro wasn't Cell, Piccolo or Vegeta. He was like General White or Frieza instead. It was his responsibility to help. In addition to that unlike every other time where Goku actually really has given someone a sensu bean. He maintained the advantage well after the villain did the double cross. Moro broke his hand even attempting to do anything. The rest was just a matter of happenstance that neither Goku nor Moro knew could occur beforehand l.
I think the scene would have worked better if Moro was at the verge of death, so Goku would have been saving his life in exhange for turning himself in.
@@emperortoho That still isn’t anywhere near the point
@@AstraFulminous Correct me if I’m wrong, but Goku needed the help of the energies of several other people including Uub in order to defeat Merus absorbed Moro, right? He did not maintain the advantage after giving him the senzu bean.
But again, this is not the point. Send him to prison WITHOUT senzu beaning him. It’s that simple. You’re not doing anything different. Why is it so hard to understand that regardless of all the character defense, this was a stupid decision?
I dont only miss old goku, I miss Dragonball. The story was never a strong point of the series but they just overdo it. Let's bring Frieza back a 3rd time with a new form. Here have some new Androids. Ah, and Cell needs a comeback too. And through the power of science, some random dude on earth can build Androids on par with a trillion times more powerful beings than the original cell. Ah, and Gohan is not relevant enough, lets just give him a billion times powerup out of nowhere. The Moro Arc was perfection against what comes after it...
Yeah the power scaling got so crazy that once they wanted to finish the series they said “no, make up something new to make us more money”. That and how they made Goku more childish, funny, and dumb to relate more to the shonen audience demographic of teens.
I honestly don't mind them reusing past plot points or past characters to be fair.
But I would appreciate it further if they went an extra mile to tell more unique stories or explore other universes or flesh out other characters like in DBS: Super Heroes, that movie was pretty fun to watch.
In your opinion, was a mere human capable of creating androids and cyborgs that surpassed the strength of the galactic emperor and the legendary Super Saiyan not overdoing it?
You are forgetting that a weak scientist made Androids that are somehow stronger than the legendary Super Saiyan.
If you want something to gripe about DBS, is probably the same thing you gripe about GT; they had some new things, but they either or not stick the landing.
@@fredv6237im assuming they mean Gamma 1 & 2?? I havent seen the movie and don't really plan too, but if i remember correctly Gero had been literally spying on Goku and friends since the Piccolo Jr saga (or King Piccolo's? post Red Ribbon) and then 20 and 19 got their shit rocked cus they didn't expect Super Saiyans. Unless you mean why 18 and 17 are strong, Id assume for the same reasons, spying. This might be me mixing up TFS but doesnt Trunks also somehow effect the timeline and it made 17 and 18 stronger?
like its wonky storytelling but the attempt at an organic reasoning is there.. and Super kind of just doesn't feel as organic imo, its *only* clunky.
I always thought being dead for 7 years is what changed him the most.
It seemed like it.
Definetely felt more detached after those 7 years . It feels as him going through super is him reaclimating to the way he was before but its a process. However, thats head cannon lol
@@sixfromtokyo Hi Six, I have a video suggestion. I’ve seen a lot of Naruto hate and disrespect going around recently. Stuff like he is the worse of the big 3 or calling him bland midruto. People are hating on his character and his philosophy. It really upsets me the amount of hate he is getting because he is my 3rd favorite superhero only after Ben 10 and Spider-Man. It would be awesome if you made a in-depth video about Naruto’s character like you did with Goku and if he is a good and interesting character or not. I sure it would be great and I will support the video if you want to make it.
No. It's just bad writing.
Good excuse for the people who say “GoKu wAs AlwAyS liKe ThiS!”
This also fits with GT. Goku in GT will often try to talk his opponent out of a fight to the death, but if they don't take the offer, or clearly won't change, he will end them.
Just wanted to stop and appreciate how high quality the scans/manga panels in your videos are.
toriyama is accurate in that goku is not a 'good' guy. he is pure of heart but goku doesn't view himself as a 'good' guy. he is not self righteous. a lot of self righteous 'good' guys end up doing bad things because the ends justify the means. look at zamasu. he viewed himself as the ultimate good guy but was really just a racist that was committing genocide against all mortals.
On the Buu topic, actually I think Goku wanted him to reincarnate as a good guy because he enjoyed the challenge but also because he recognized that Fat Buu was a good character because of Mr. Satan. He still killed Kid Buu but he wanted to give Buu another chance, but AFTER they killed off his evil side.
Another goated Goku video from Wix himself 🔥
I miss how wise Goku felt during the Piccolo Jr. saga. He was serious, but not in the same way he was when he got serious in Z. He felt more like a master martial artist in that saga than he even did while training Gohan. He was able to think about consequences before things happened, and was even mentally and emotionally mature enough to understand why Chi-Chi was upset at the tournament. That's how I wish he was during Z and a better version of Super/GT (both are ass, but imagine if they were both rebooted as one new series with all the best elements carefully planned out).
"Goku was meant to be childish!"
Yeah! When he was a child! He's an adult man now and we have literally seen his progression in DBZ and now his obvious regression in Super.
"Only in the English dub is Goku a superhero" Time and time again Goku would put the well-being of Earth and his friends before himself or his desires. People say Vegeta was bad for letting Cell become perfect but Super Goku DEFINITELY would have done the same thing. Super Goku is basically the cause of everything bad happening or escalating to dire situations in Super because he is a retard now.
Some degree of reduction of character was done there but dont try to pretend that he didnt have stupid moments in Z.
The senzu on cell is still stupid, the wish to revive a being of pure evil in kid buu is stupid, and more. And the R word, really? Holy bigotry filled ableism batman, goku has always been an idiot. He literally hit his head as an infant. That was considered a major turning point on how he didnt turn out like his brother or other saiyan kin.
Goku is far from a superman clone or superhero in Z. He was a flawed person in there too. They just translated it differently. Super goku and z goku both did dipshit things, but they only elevated it in super because super is more geared to kids than z was.
Next time you try to make a point, try not to be such a bigoted dickhead about it you sack of crap.
Notifications are off, good luck replying
Z Goku:
Let go of Raditz tail when he's already familiar with people duping him to save their skins (Mercenary Tao)
Thought Bubbles was King Kai despite being given clear instructions of who King Kai is
Thought it was night time in outer space
Needs Piccolo to tell him to remember what Trunks said
Didn't take the heart virus medicine when his symptoms started showing and told no one
Gives a Senzu Bean to Cell
Didn't realize Gohan didn't like fighting and needs Piccolo to tell him this
Had to ask Gohan whether Videl was a girl or not
Didn't kill Majin Buu when he later states he could have
Throws the Potara at Gohan instead of just teleporting and handing it to him, as he does with Vegeta
Crushes and uses the Potara earrings when Kabito Kai provies replacements. He later regrets this and says Potara would have finished Buu
Either you didn't watch DBZ or you have an obvious double standard and that's sad.
Totally agree. Since the black arc it was clear in my head that super was irredimible and was only going to get worse and worse; and sadly I’ve been right ever since. That’s why right there i just stop caring about the future of the franchise, and i was just glad DBZ is always gonna be there and being untouchable.
Seeing future Trunks loose EVERYTHING (except future Mai) is a hard neck snapping whiplash, especially compared to Gokus pretty much non-existant permanent consequences.
The funnier thing is that they didn't even BOTHER to try to revive the future universes with the dragonball because they wanted future Zeno to stay in the present
What are your thoughts on the Buu Saga?
It's really interesting that you bought up DBS being irredeemable when your pfp is SS4 when Goku is at is mentally best never letting his love for fighting outweigh the safety of others but still sees the good in others when he befriended Fire Shenron. If anything DBGT manages to progress Goku as a character and it really hurts that no one talks about it.
I still think the Moro arc was super good. It's like UI reverted him back and he wanted to try fix things he couldn't with Frieza since Moro couldn't hurt him.
Instead of the value of life only, this time it was also the value of not relying on cheap tricks and magic.
It also contrasted Vegeta very well since they both handled it completely differently despite both being very similair.
@@albertthepeacock8020upload a video about it. It's never talked about because GT is quite possibly the most Goku centric set of arcs. So he would be the only one to progress.
But I don’t think Toriyama failed. Goku protects the Earth because he’s from there and loves the Earth. His friends and family is there. He’s always stopped the bad guys because they were a hinderance to his goals. And when he was commissioned by someone else to stop a bad guy, he took the “job” because he knew there were strong. He never says “oh he’s a killer? It’s my duty to stop this evil doer!” He always says it sounds fun and he can push himself. That was clear throughout the series to me
Like you guys tell me, who did Goku confront that wasn’t directly involved in getting in the way of what HE wanted to do, or was hurting someone close to him
But is he the guy who'll just walk away if he sees a killer kill someone innocent and cruelly ?
Sure I agree that he'll not go out if his way yo hunt down every killer and stop them but will he ignore the ones that coincidently happens in front of him?
keep spittin'. I've been watchin DB since 94 and readin since ~09, if mfs think Super Goku(and alot of the cast for the matter) hasn't regressed as a character and isn't a shell of himself, you don't pay attention. Goku in Super is like if you just look at his character at the MOST surface level possible! Funny enough to say but if you want a return to form for his character go watch GT
Omg, a dragonball fan with literary comprehension! Really good video!
I am starting to think that the way Goku is portrayed in the Manga is due to Akira Toriyama's Editor. Just like with George Lucas and the original Trilogy when he allowed other people to direct the movies, I think the Dragon Ball Editor Kept Akira Toriyama in check. The editor is the reason Goku is the way he is in the Original Manga, but in the Super Anime, the Editor is not around to keep AT and the anime writers in check. This why Goku is so different in Super
Yeah, that’s more common than people think. Creatives tend to need exogenous boundaries or else they just get carried away with their ideas. It’s all well and good if someone wants to express themselves, but there’s not much point in publishing art that isn’t tailored to provide a cohesive and focused experience for the people consuming the art. Toriyama in particular isn’t really a shounen battle manga writer, he’s a gag manga writer. He was already famous for writing comedy manga when he started writing Dragon Ball, and you can tell over time that DB gets more and more of a serious tone as the expectations for the series shifted. By the time he got to the Buu arc, he was mostly free to do what he wanted, and so that arc became full of good ideas that go nowhere and a lot of slapstick in serious situations.
Very true. I don't think Goku would have ever matured the way he did in DBZ if Toriyama had had full control over the manga.
Totally agreed. The kind of difference between Goku now and during the original DB and GT run is so massive, they are basically different characters.
@KereTista-km9ckI hate to be the one to tell you this, but DBZ was also a kid's show.
The stuff about George Lucas and his editors saving his films is a myth. First because everything is "saved in the edit". That's how you finish the project 😂. And second, George oversaw all the edits. He also was the one who decided to cut the stuff that didn't work. I don't blame you cause I'm sure you're not trying to intentionally revise history. It's a common narrative that gets pushed. I had even believed it for a bit until I looked more into it
Goku from the Cell arc was the best version of Goku.
He had fears, he was afraid to die, he question his own abilities and knew he was limited. A more human Goku was amazing touch with the character. Goku refusing to stop Buu will forever be a stain for me. I get his mindset, but Goku punching Gero to stop going on a mass killing spree, to Goku simply saying “nope, don’t need to stop it because it’s not my place.”
That forever changed my perspective on the character. Akira did his job very well with getting to question Goku morals after Buu well at least for me.
I thought of it as like pushing a baby bird out the nest so it can fly. It seems cruel, but it works. Goku was basically letting the z fighters be the heroes, since he was dead and he couldn't just show up anytime the earth was in trouble, he needed to know that earth had its own heroes.
I kinda like the Moro arc because it shows a better goku than the Super Anime did☠️ the recent arcs in the manga seem redeeming
Six drops a video imma have to watch🤷🏿♂️
it is quite simple , goku is just a normal guy like us who like to fight , not a super hero but if he see someone's life being threaten , he won stay indifferent , he will help cause he knows that is the right thing to do and he can , like any normal person with a sense of moral
Six is my favorite body pillow TH-camr
Please pick some1 else.
Mine too. I love his voice when i sleep 😮
With regard to the Moro being given a senzu ordeal, I saw a counter-argument that states it's fine for Goku to give Moro a senzu bean, since he immediately breaks his arm on UI Goku's chest the moment he tries to attack him, which means that Goku knew that Moro stood no chance against him anymore, and was basically no longer a threat. But you bring up an even better point: why give Moro a senzu in the first place? The fight was over, he was already beaten, and his injuries basically amounted to some bruises, a broken horn, a cracked forehead jewel thingy and a missing hand. The simple answer is that the author wanted the fight to continue and for Moro to get UI, so he got the outcome he wanted by contriving Goku into acting like an idiot for no good reason. Goku giving Cell the senzu bean was an honest mistake (and there might be an argument to be made that it was actually the right course of action), born out of him misunderstanding his son's nature, but there's no such justification for what Goku did with Moro.
im guessing toyotaro wanted a physical representation of goku's mindset at the time but having moro brink of death would have been better. Or he could have just had moro getting merus's data heal him. Maybe he wanted the cool ass chest breaking moro's hand (?) but then u could do something like moro tries to tag him one last time while he and jaco are talking
Moro was so weak before goku giving him a sensu bean, he couldn't even removed the small boulder that fell on him. So how's jaco gonna take him on prison when he couldn't even barely move?
@@jinmori8255 Probably by picking him up and taking him there.
@@jinmori8255 make him take not as much damage then
@@FriendlyDarkwraith Moro is too big for jaco to carry
Spit about our king Goku🎉
ppl sayin Z Goku and super Goku are the same are slandering more than me for sure lmao
@@sixfromtokyoThe only Goku I can accept after Z is The GT one.
@@sixfromtokyoif you actually think that then there’s no hope for you
@@ferrucciocaracciuolo8139What about when GT Goku begged Myuu to activate Baby, what about Goku taking a bubble bath in hell messing around while the earth was being taken over by ressurected villains, why was he overreacting because he had to sit in a hospital room, why is he stealing food from the villagers on other planet's? Why is he constantly shooting energy blast at 17 knowing he's absorbing it? GT Goku is trash 👎
Wow knowing the specific manga details of how Goku was really feeling at the end of the Frieza fight (trembling w/ sad face) made me appreciate that part of the story a lot more. Knowing that bit of info also makes it more consistent for me story-wise, that Frieza was still able continue living even after being blasted by Goku. The best part of this is we still get to see Goku being true to his nature, and Frieza gets to live a little longer only to get annihilated by Super Saiyan AGAIN!
I wish Goku was more serious in Super. Like when he fought Goku on Namek.
?
goku fought goku on namek?
damn this xenoverse twisted timelines
@@ryszakowyyeah bro, how you think he got stronger on the way there by himself?
In like Xenoverse or Heroes?
It's a basic fact of fiction that the author's idea almost never makes it to the page on an ideal for.
The character he wanted to write is harder to make interesting. In reality, if he wanted Goku to be a person who just wanted a stronger challenge all the time he should have made him fight both villans and heros because that how that works. Like he goes to Namak Frieza's nemesis Alomstfreza is their and asks Goku to team up and Goku insist instead on fighting him even if I makes stopping Freza impossible.
The reason Goku became a hero is that not trying to help people and not having a code would make him a villan at least by allowing evil to happen and that not what he intended either.
I hate how everyone in the db community defends the argument of what toriyama originally wanted goku to be. He also wanted android 19 and 20 to be the big bad of the android saga. He also wantes to end the series after frieza saga. He also wanted vegito blue to not be a thing. He also wanted jiren to not be as strong as he is.
He never said he wanted the series to end after Freeza, that is a myth in the community
@@dususbakahyahskahwbwm9113 its quite evident he did goku clearly dies on namek next we see him get away?
It's been a minute since i read the moro stuff, so forgive my monke brain if i misremember things. But a possible explanation for the senzu, not saying id agree, could be that at the time it was kiiinda like a cell situation where goku knew full well thag moro legit just... couldn't win, cause moro tried all the dirty tricks he had and Goku didnt get hit once in the entire thing before that. The main difference being this time goku knew the person in charge of taking down moro was willing to do it if things came to that because Goku himself was doing it.
You could say goku thought that, since he did win fair and square, he figured moro would also have to see that and as Goku had stopped all prior attempts to eat the world during the skirmish goku figured his overwhelming power would force moro to understand his options were: die or face his time in prison.
Based on what he says in the small time where he leaves UI in the middle of the fight he seems like he kinda wants to be proven wrong that some people just have to die, that even people like moro can be forced to see reason, goku was just wrong.
Least, thats the best argument i can think of off the top of my head, so... prolly even not that good, hah. Personally i think it's kiiinda just seems like more super wheele spinning but part of me hopes theres something im just nor seeing.
The pure of heart needed for riding the nimbus showed it being the good pure of heart not the single minded purpose type. So Toriyama messed up in the very beginning of the series.
Man I miss Goku
What u mean bro? He's the same? Apparently we all just watched different versions of DB
@@sixfromtokyoI mean Goku from dragon call, not dragon ball, dragon ball is just a rip off who used kid Goku and somehow made it worse
Me to brother.
Man I miss the old Goku. Also, I appreciate the content you've been putting out on Goku. We need more critical thinkers like you in the community. Dragon ball has played a big role in my child hood, and I absolutely dislike what they've done to Goku's character. Honestly, it is a shame to have one of the most influential character in fiction and then ruin his character completely. Vegeta too.
0:22 that's a fire start.
I do remember the dog mayor remembering him, but that might be filler.
It sounds like Toriyama's depiction of Goku was supposed to be more like Luffy from One Piece. Luffy fights because he loves to fight. He doesn't usually care for any possible casualties that he would be involved with UNLESS it puts those he cares about in severe danger. Those people are usually his friends who can't handle themselves, as well as people he respects and their valued property and/or citizens... and also those who promised him food. If any of these people need his help because of something tragic, he won't comfort them, and instead advances to resolve the issue with his fists. I think the major issue between Luffy and Goku's situation in regards to the way Toriyama wanted Goku to be depicted is, the power. Luffy can achieve this stuff without having to worry about him or his opponent tearing the whole island or country anew because their powers don't usually impact a huge area at a destructive level. The goals of Toriyama's depiction can be achieved way easier this way.
However, Toriyama kind of wrote himself into a wall when it comes to his depiction of Goku. His characters powers are far too immense to be used around society, and so he has Goku lead the villains away from civilization to a barren wasteland, 19 and 20 being prime examples of this. Even with Goku wanting to stay dead after Cell, while I loved that so much, it doesn't support his depiction, because Goku is being deprived of his passion to fight for the sake of humanity (and this is before he knew he'd be able to satisfy his passion in the afterlife). Then the Buu saga itself opened up a lot of cans where Goku's often shown being heroic over his passion. Dragon Ball Super gives Goku the chance to show less heroicness because he often fights in worlds where he doesn't need to worry about causalities, and even then, Goku's actions line up more with Toriyama's depiction just in general, such as when he fought Beerus in the city, but it's too late now. We've gone through Dragon Ball and Z where we see Goku develop into a heroic warrior, and he's at fault for writing him in the way he didn't want to write him. To suddenly change his character completely in the sequel series to fit your depiction will result in an inconsistency that's so big, it makes all of Z feel irrelevant. There's nothing else to say but, Toriyama messed up. He failed to write Goku in the way he depicted him. To us, the fans, Z Goku is beloved to us while Super Goku is somebody entirely different. DBZ is our Goku and DBS is Toriyama's Goku.
I miss old Goku too, I literally was 2 when my sister would put Z on to put me to sleep so Goku is a special character to me and it actually physically hurts seeing what they are doing to him. I never saw the manga only but 2 volumes but I plan on getting it to relive the joy of his story. I’m never getting super tho, I’d rather throw it into the sun then buy it. 😂
3:08 dude, I just realized that's ALL he does on Super. Like literally no villain in DBS ACTUALLY damages Goku's friends (to the extent they did before), they are a multiversal threat RATHER than personal threat to Goku's relatives. They do threaten them but none actually get close to a deep emotional scar
In defense of the Buu saga: Goku is obssessed with finding a new guardian for earth because he is only there for one day.And you can see he was dissapointed with Gohan not reaching his potiential because he thought that earth needs a protector so he looks to Goten and Trunks but they are too young thats when at the last chapter when Vegeta tells Goku when he was collecting energy for the spirit bomb that he needs to let the people of earth save themselves sometimes because Goku has done it so many times before.
People really need to understand that Goku's big mistake in the cell arc was not the senzu bean.
It was not doing more to prepare Gohan for the task.
Have you forgotten about his famous quote? I am the hope of the universe speech
It goes back to Dragon Ball, too. I mean when that little kid’s dad dies and he goes out of his way to avenge and revive him. And then throughout the series his power ups and fights stem from him avenging others.
he as initially willing to spare mercenary Tao too!
I enjoyed that one of the first things you said was people gaslighting themselves. Very accurate.
you basically just called author statements HEADCANON 🥶
because they mismatch what the story actually tells
its like with jk rowling’s statements
Another detailed and goated video from Six
I completely disagree because Goku has always been about mercy and giving people second chances. A better comparison is vegeta. He was very evil but Goku let him live. He gave Moro the senzu bean NOT for no reason at all. It was the only way Goku could be sure of Moros intentions. If he was actually going to be good or just lying about it because he was weak. Goku knew he could beat him again if he had to. This is not the problem with Goku. The real change is how dumb and immature he is now. This is the only mature thing he's done in super.
It really started in dragon ball when Eighter told Goku not to kill white. He learned mercy then. So for him not to do it anymore would be regressing the character. Goku doesn't kill people unless he absolutely feels he has too. Even Frieza he held back that final shot.
6:50 Bulma gave birth to Trunks, so Future Bulma did defeat Frieza, by proxy. 😂
Man, seeing those manga panels from z, i say it still very much holds up even against modern shounen mangas. Its beautiful. The action is shard and has impact.
Six is spitting facts. Sometimes i wonder like, are people even reading the same manga? Lol
Out of all of these i have more of a problem with him sparing frieza than him giving cell a senzu bean. I hate the "you cant kill them because youll be just as bad as them" trope thats been done so much even before dragon ball. Killing a genoicidal conqueror that always looked down on people lower than him would not make him as awful, not to mention him coming back and almost destroying earth.
Buu saga manga art was starting to get a bit rough looking, I know akira was absolutely exhausted and tired of doing the series, that probably effected how he talked about it going foward .
Goku to me was a character that always wanted to achieve a total victory. What I mean by that is he wants to win, fair and square. All the times he 'saved' people were just a happy instance of right place right time, of course he's not going to callously let people die. He also saw it as pointless for these ultra powerful enemies to kill innocents or people beneath them in power.
He let Vegeta go, because he saw a potential rematch and he wasn't satisfied by the hollow victory they got over him. Frieza basically killed himself (or so we thought.) hence his dissatisfaction.
He pushed his ideals onto Gohan, he wanted Gohan to destroy Cell at his maximum power level, this was a huge flaw and a weak point for his character. Just because he wanted that type of victory doesn't mean the others or Gohan did, they wanted peace and to finish Cell at any cost. Gohan didn't even want to fight to begin with. Hence why Piccolo's speech hit him hard and he realized his mitake.
He even pulls this shit in the Buu Saga, he could have easily finished Fat Buu but he figured a dead guy shouldn't win the day, his 7 year old son should..lmao. Another huge miscalculation.
I love Goku but his obsession with winning with honor or a total victory has cost him his life and endangered the planet itself.
Hi cool vid I agree with most of your points about super Goku, But I do think the Moro stuff does kind of make sense.
My reason for thinking this is that Goku never liked killing people even if they where pure evil, so him trusting his instincts like what he has been learning through all of super makes sense to me he is giving Moro every opportunity to change his way's even gave him a sensu bean to show that no matter what you do you can not win. And when Moro still rejects him Goku then decides has to kill him.
I think him stopping and talking to Moro is some-what true to his character or at least an evolution of his character about how he trusts his instincts and because of that he is usually right, Like with piccolo to extent even though at the time he did to keep kami alive I don't believe that to be the main reason he did it, his true reason was to fight him again in the future and it turned out alright. And even more so with Vegeta, at the time he had no reason to spare him and he was the biggest threat they had met and it turned out alright in the end.
SO Goku trusting his instincts have been mostly consistent with his character and I think if they continue this path Super Goku will be in a better place and closer to a Z or more developed Z Goku
Goku is the reincarnation of the grand priest.
Just because Goku fought for his own interest in fighting doesn't mean he doesn't fight to defend others. It just means he doesn't go out specifically for justice, but will fight for his own friends or stop bullies. Kid Goku was all about stopping bad people doing bad things he'd see along the way, which they often mistreated people nice to him or him directly. Goku doesn't like to kill or see innocents being killed, especially after meeting Android 8. Like...Goku giving a Senzu to Cell he started to realize was a MISTAKE!
the senzu for cell was important psychologically, think about it. cell was fatigued after Goku, Goku knew that Gohan was even stronger than him as a ssj. but cell was unpredictable, there is no telling what he had done if mastered ssj gohan was actually willing to fight seriously. I assume he would have been forced to unleash his full power, and at that point it would have been lights out for our heroes.
Goku gave moro a sensu bean because he knew that even if moro heals he would still be able to beat him this is shown as goku tanks moro's punch like it was nothing of course eventually moro fused with the earth but everyone makes mistakes the way you are saying it your making it like DBS Goku is a terrible and completely different character with no redeeming qualities
Yeah idk bro. The Toriyama quote couldn't be more clear, DBS Goku is clearly in line with the same stated intentions Goku had all along, a Protagonist that isn't actually good but just "pure"
Funny enough SSJ9K's video of Goku vs Frezia was pretty much accurate depiction of Goku's personality 😂😂😂
Yo~! A well made and organized video. And yes I watched it from start to finish. Thanks for the upload. 😉👍
P.S.
I should mention though that although I've never been a Goku fan, and found him annoying as an MC, I found him to be even worse in Super. To me, the character became unbearable to watch and gave up on the series. 😅
I think when Goku said he was gonna clobber Frieza for good, was because Frieza decided to attack Earth. Not because he survived. But BECAUSE he survived and the first thing he did was attack Earth.
At this point Frieza was just an animal with rabbies that needs to be put out of his misery. For his and everyone else's sake.
Goku pov: Neeeeeeh. So you dont wanna learn?! Aight aight. (Kills Frieza) Im a good guy but there is a limit to kindness.
You forgeted Goku saving Vegeta is exactly the same as Moro. Same with reincarnating Majin Boo.
Goku thinking almost every villain can be a rival is something that has been problematic since DB manga and post Kami teachings.
And Goku... Never trully regret about the Senzu beam on Cell. He always trusted his son just using his true power on Supersaiyan 1 could obliterate Cell with enought selfconfidence, which not seeing that confidence Lack on Gohan what trully regreted.
About Kid Boo and Pothara earrings...Goku said he wanted to fight Boo with his own power, not about having a fair fight not fusing. The isn't fused anymore is for recalcing Kid Boo is weaker than his other fusion states including Super Boo and that they can handle him no problem.
Against Yakon Goku didn't put him down inmediately. He first fighted as base toying around when he could had defeated Yakon, them uses Supersaiyan while extremelly contained to iluminate the scenary making Yakon absorb that becoming over 4 times stronger and refuses to fight alongside Gohan so Yakon can absorb anymore energy for trying as a contained Supersaiyan 2 to make him explote from absorbing Ki even if he didn't knowed if that was gonna work.
The Fat Boo thing is the same as Moro, Goku having an extremelly dangerous view of things putting the universe in danger just because thinked that as a dead shouldn't act there even when was possible
Everything you said was just wrong
@@Mavuika_Gyaru Noup, all I said was based on the manga. Even Goku himself states several times he just regrets not noticing Gohan true feelings at the end
@@antoinepolnareff8970 The vegeta and Moro situations are nothing alike. Goku let vegeta go so that they could fight again in the future. Goku planned on imprisoning Moro after giving him the senzu bean. If goku wanted a rival out of moro then he wouldn’t have wanted to imprison him in a place he wouldn’t be let free.
Goku is suffering from CTE and early stages of schizophrenia
Your synopsis of Goku's (real) character is spot on but to this day no one acknowledges two major things that also reflect the mark of genius and moral depth of character Goku embodies (credit to the genius writing of OG DBZ) and thats both the senzu bean moment and both when Goku doesn't attempt to kill fat Buu off and when he refuses to use the potara earrings alongside Vegeta.
1. The senzu bean. Goku is a warrior with the ideal genes of a (pretty much) perfect warrior race first and foremost and he is also Gohans father. He understood that because Gohan cares so much, even though he had everything it took to defeat Cell, he would likely allow Cell to get the better of him if he felt there was any reason to take the fight lightly. Gohan is not as experienced as the rest of the Z fighters and needed that pressure, that push that only Cell could give him to get him to break his limit into SSJ2 although the pressure of possibly being wrong nonetheless as a father as well as with all the stakes on the line was still overwhelming for even Goku as he is still just a man/mortal and might not have made the right call after all (which he did make the right call).
2. At this point Goku was experienced with death and understood that all things shall pass. In his wisdom he knew there needed to be successors to succeed him, to defend the earth, to continue to protect everything he cherishes long after he's gone and if his attempt to finish fat Buu off succeeded, he would be stealing the opportunity for those successors to grow capable of rising to the challenge the next time push came to shove. Also there was a chance of him not being able to finish him off too, but he still used what precious time he had left to ensure the kids would know the fusion technique before he passed.
3. As for the potara, he even said it himself to the supreme kai after everything that has transpired that he's going to be a little selfish this time and abide by Vegeta's way of doing things because there's a time where winning by any means necessary is the right thing to do and a time where fighting for one's honor, one's pride, one's principles even at the chance of death is the moral right for if they should lose as they are after everyone else has already had their shot and failed, maybe this is the best everyone could measure up to after all. Fighting as they are, depending on the universe and succeeding proved once again that everything is worth fighting for...
I know we’re focused on the latter/post saiyan reveal half of Dragon Ball, but let’s not forget Goku pulled up on Demon King Piccolo for blood. Put a hole in him.
I think your right about goku but idc about war thunder
As someone who was rather mixed on your other video on this topic I think this video did a really great job at backing up your point and is generally a massive improvement, at least to me. I am someone who was always a defender of the Moro senzu bean scene, but I think that when compared one to one with the Frieza scene it's definitely clear that some of Goku's depth of character from that saga was lost. I think the scenes are extremely similar but the fact is that Goku had already gone through this all with Frieza and learned from how that went.
I still think the scene of Goku powered down to base talking to moro is one of my favorite scenes in dbs by far, but it's definitely a bit off compared to how Z Goku used to act. I will say though that Goku's mindset in general has changed a lot since then, especially with his ultra instinct training, and I really think the Moro scene would have been received much better if Goku wasn't written inconsistently and like an idiot for the rest of DBS. I also think that because of how Frieza acted in the TOP, Goku might have regained a bit of that belief that even the worst people can learn when given enough time. Really it's not that this scene is terrible, it's just that it doesn't solve the characterization issues that DBS is full of before and after this arc. I really hope going forward they stick to the Goku we saw from chapters 62-65 of DBS at the very least.
What I always say about Super is that is not a sequel, it's a parody of DBZ, willing to sacrifice plot/character/lore just for the sake of nostalgia rush through cheap references to things that happened on the show (Senzu to enemy, Yamcha pose, Vegeta explosion) and jokes from outside (Popo threatening Vegeta, Goku stupidity)
Toriama gave up on the show a long time ago, even before it ended. Toyotaro is an ok artist that don't have the name nor the skill to make a diference. And the higher ups don't care on what is being made as long it print money.
Dragon Ball have little to no chance to dug itself out of the hole it is at the moment.
I always thought Goku didn't look as sad in the anime during Frieza's "Death" but I did feel like he didn't really wanna kill him. He doesn't look mad... In the anime to me... More like... Disappointed that Frueza didn't take the grace given to him.
Super feels so half baked it feels like im living off of the memories of Z because they just hand out power ups they trashed how you get ssj and people who had a half bake story with little to no development be giving goku and vegeta who trained with an angel and got god ki bro they be giving them hands i mean how we got piccolo getting stronger than ssb and ssbe from earth's dragon ball wish? I hope they fix the writing
I was on the Idea that Goku was making the exception with moro to honor the angel wishes. But he wqs not afraid to kill him if he didn't learn.
Yo how powerful do you think is juubi jinjuriki hagaromo?
Trash
@@sixfromtokyoWill Boruto ever surpassed Naruto in his Baryon Mode form?
@@UnwantedGhost1Well, that's obvious he will. But will Naruto ever get new Power ups like Goku or he'll really retired for good? Now that's a question. I think Naruto will get power up, one Last crazy fight Against Outsutsuki and die with honor.
''After Goku gave frieza energy, he's still died cut in half out of energy'' TF He's not 🤣he even survived a planet explosion while unconscious after that 🤣🤣🤣
From Goku's perspective
@@sixfromtokyo Goku still knew frieza could survive so he gave him energy so he could leave planet namek.
@@arseniolupin9939 yea that was before Goku blasted him into a hole in the sea after Frieza turned on him. Why would you even reply with this? Lol
I think it's a bad translation and what he means is he's not without his flaws and he's more like chaotic good like the monkey king hes based off of.
I wouldn't see an issue with Frieza losing a fight to Bulma if it was the result of a machine that Bulma created that Frieza dramatically underestimated the abilities of. Like something that could transport him across the universe or trap him in a capsule that effectively puts him into cryosleep. Frieza has been known to let attacks hit him if he thinks they will have no effect and so it would be perfectly within his character to not dodge a seemingly harmless attack that then turns out to be able to defeat him in an unconventional manner.
it would be funny to see arale beat freeza, he would lose his marbles about that gag character.
Goku 100% is willing to keep the world safe, and clearly cares about justice and other people. Its pretty simple actually, Toriyamas idea of goku became less heroic in his mind as time went on.
Goku is hero hes just not superman. Goku doesnt stop a bank robbery, but he also wont just abide seeing people die. Gokus morality is very much reactionary, unless a threat is so worryisome he has to be proactive. Basically Goku saves the World from bad guys that put the world or large portions of people that hes aware of in danger.
AND Gokus a better character for being heroic. Because the character toriyama wanted to right is super goku, and super goku blows.
Six why do you like the fact that goku is open to interpretation. Do you not like characters with less openness.
Also what about that Sasuke vs Ichigo video 🤔
Goku gave cell a senzu bean to make him overconfident . a desperate cell would just kill off everyone .
exactly, he was gassed after the fight Goku, and Goku knew that Gohan was even stronger than him as mastered ssj.
If Gohan had been willing to fight seriously against a cell in that state, it would have forced cell to unleash his full kept hidden power and I don't see how it would have gone from here to cause anger in Gohan to trigger the ssj2 transformation.
Krillin hitting him in the head with that rock is what caused all of this lmao.
I think some of the criticisms are reasonable especially from people like you that actually analyze and I can say I think Super Goku isn’t the same from Z only cause the tension wasn’t there for most the series so he is more lax
He got stupid.!
even when super had some serious moments you knew they were going to either use dragon balls
have whis rewind
or beerus save the moment
OR goku pulling more power out of his ass
also erase entire arc like future trunks
also also "yeah we knew the winner of tournament would wish to bring back all universes"
@@ryszakowy fax
@@ryszakowyyea I think where they fucked up was letting us know that the ending of Z was gonna be the same. They should’ve just kept that to themselves and made it seem like it was gonna get retconned. That killed a lot of the tension
@@ryszakowy like the original series doesn’t do that? most arcs only had stakes because of things that couldn’t be fixed by the dragon balls(who would be defeated anyway because they’re the bad guy and the bad guy never permanently wins in dragon ball)
there are many issues with super but that’s a flaw with dragon ball in general, not super
I miss the old Goku, the dragon soul Goku, achieve his goals Goku
i agree with you, they flanderized him
Six What is your opinion on Goku Black(the character)
I like em.
What I don't like about Super fanbois is that they'll use the Toriyama quote to justify Goku being a bumbling idiot who couldn't tell left from right. Liking to fight strong guys and not being an idiot aren't mutually exclusive.
Iv always thought that goku giving cell a sensu was sense he always planed for gohan to beat cell and be the new protector of eath but he didnt think that he thought a weakended cell would push gohan to his true potential but he fought cell first because of gokus want to fight strong opponents
"goku was always this dumb in the manga" is the world's biggest lie
You Think We Could Ever Get A Comparison In Power Between The Z Movie Timeline And The Anime Timeline? Alot Of People Don't Understand The Huge Power Gaps At Times Between The Two Universes
At this point, I've considered Super to be a lost cause all together.
Make a video on old vegeta
There's two things about what Six said don't add up. Did Goku Moronbecause he wanted to fightt him as himself and not under the Galactic Patrol. By not fighting as a Galactic Patrol officer, he could fight Moro at full strength before Meerus broke his crystals. Second, Goku could fight Moro as himself and not as a protector of the universe. Goku is just the protector of his friends on Earth. You could say the first fight with Moro was revenge on Moro for Meerus death as they were brothers in arm as a Galacic Patrol officers. When Goku states, "I'll fight as an Earthling means" I'm now fighting as myself and not for the Universe. In other words, I got my hits in for Meerus, now let me kill you for trying to eat my home. And that's Goku as himself. I don't think Toyotaro(notice I didn't right Toriyama as I think Toriyama was probably assisting with DBS Superhero at this time and most) dumbs doIwn Goku in the manga. It's as I stated, Toyotaro wanted to bring some swag back to Goku by having Moro break his ownarm by punching Goku's abs, but he also wanted to throw some nods to the Cell Arc. Toyotaro is a fan artist first. Plus, he doesn't forget stuff like Toriyama. The difference hear between Goku in the Moro Arc and Gohan in the Cell Arc is that Gohan wanted Cell to suffer. Goku wanted Moro dead on his terms, which was secretly by his own hands or letting Moro shock him by going with the Galactic Patrol. Also, Goku didn't fight Moro out of anger because he would lose his MUI form. The point was to remind everyone that Goku was never a hero and Toyotaro reminds us every fight he draws in the Manga, but it's not written as stupidly as in the Anime.
No offense,but would love some background music and or audio cues to really make your videos pop.
For all of Gokus attempt to "save" Frieza in Namke he gets spit on his face.
And after learning learning that not every evil strong person can be saved, in the next arc Cell saga he immediatly goes for the kill Cell even though imo Cell should have been the easiest in theory to be saved.
I'm glad we grew up with the failed attempt from Toriyama
Z Goku: *heals Piccolo jr and Frieza and will let them do what they want after murdering and torturing innocent ppl and his friends*
Z Fans: *WHOAW JUST WHOAW Goku is the best*
Super Goku: *heals moro so he could go back to prison well and to honor his master's (meerus) belief*
Z Fans: *Z Goku will never do this*
😂🤣😂🤣 🤦♂
Dude you just summed up the entire Nostalgic DB community in one comment. Well done. 🤣👏👏👏
What are you smoking?
@@brolysama2178Goku didn't heal Vegeta or Frieza. He's mentally ill and so are you
@@Mavuika_Gyaru The energy that ssj goku gave to frieza heals his wound and boost his energy.
He heals piccolo so that Kami doesn’t die and he gives Frieza energy because he didn’t want to be like him. You are doing the thing where you are leaving at important context for why Goku did certain things in z….