Love these old games. I watched shusaku games for the first 2 years I played and it took me forever to transition to modern joseki. Now with alphago I'm having to battle a whole new model. Thanks for this lecture!
Lee Sedol is still the only human to ever beat AlphaGo in a single game. Game 4 out of the 5-Game match. The ONLY time a human beat AlphaGo. Of course the other four games in the match AlphaGo won, but I'm glad they went the full 5 games to give Lee Sedol every chance to win just ONE game. And he did :-)
As a Kyu player, the "double elephant eye" in the first fame indeed scared the *** out of me. It's strange, because we are taught early of "good" and "bad" shapes, and the two best examples for them are empty triangle and elephant eye. Yet, dans often play those elephant eyes anyway, often a tobi to the center then cap. I don't know how to defend his. In my games, SDK players INSTANTLY poke the eye and cut, and then a terrible fight ensues. Here, what would have happen if black, instead of another tobi to the center (G8), poked the shape directly ? So hard to read... Excellent video BTW, thanks !
the elephant eye isn't a bad shape it just doesn't focus in keeping a connection , yeah i'm sdk and everyone pokes at it but a lot of times it's bad because the cut isn't important and that play forces me to protect myself so..
good real board lecture. Of course we know of Shuei! Very underestimated player. Maybe even greater than Shusaku. I do feel for Lee Sedol. We have all known games like that. It's... It makes you want to flip the board!
After Ke Jie's opening second line move, tewari analysis shows backing off to not be ideal. If you do Batts' diagonal, and W connnects, and B tenukis, it's the same as if B tenuki'd to the last move first, and then W connects and B backs off, which is a good exchange for W. You can also imagine W played the connecting move F18 first - B should block with G18 to prevent precisely Batts' suggested variation, and so Batts' variation must be at least a little bad for B. Any top pro as spirited as Lee Sedol will not accept a bad exchange on move 10 just because their opponent is an absolute madman. I think Shuei too would almost certainly have started a fight against that move, especially given how contradictory to opening principles W's move was. And so the fight commences on move 10. To be honest, though, I like today's state of the game a lot more - it forces top pros to play on knife's edge for the smallest of advantages, as opposed to playing for psychological comfort of the old days. The more that I find myself shaking my head in wonder when I watch Ke Jie's games, the more that I love Go.
Backing off is much simpler. In fact i would also recommend just playing away and ignoring that move, something another pro responded with when ke jie again tried the move. But for basics and simplicity, avoiding the fight and just getting good shape is more than fine enough.
I don't totally buy the tewari, since if Black tenuki's in response to the second-line move, there are other moves White can consider (now or later) beyond simply connecting. It is at least a much more "comfortable" game for Black to diagonal rather than tenuki, and if I didn't know any better I'd say it was a bad exchange for White to connect in gote, but clearly Ke Jie (and Lee Sedol) think otherwise.
I don't understand why people are bitching so much about this "new bleep bloop style". That's the great thing about go: as long as you're not a professional you can afford to have a style. You don't have to copy what the pros or the AIs play in the opening because what really decides who wins games are all those moves you can't copy or assign to a style. For the pros trying to have such a choice nowadays is a professional risk but I don't think I've heard any of them bitch about it... (Just for the record, I'm right in my claims here by the definition of "style" used here)
I wouldn’t blame lee Chang ho for the fighting. He had to do it to keep up with Lee Sedol. When he played basic he would lose to sedol. The young up and coming Koreans were just as good as he was at endgame. So he had to end the games earlier.
![[Full] 4 ต่อ 4 Celebrity EP.922 | 10 พ.ย. 67 | one31](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zmV5HRIxIBI/mqdefault.jpg)
out of all the things in the 2nd game, that invasion on move 10 was pretty nice
Love these old games. I watched shusaku games for the first 2 years I played and it took me forever to transition to modern joseki. Now with alphago I'm having to battle a whole new model. Thanks for this lecture!
I've seen some shusaku, but havent seen anything quite like this before. Thought it was really cool!
@@dwyrin completely different. Shusaku would rarely back off high, this feels like the beginning of what I thought of as "modern go" until 2017.
Or like black is shibanos idol ;)
1:08:58 "Otherwise you would've heard Lee Sedol has retired" Well, I mean...
Lee Sedol is still the only human to ever beat AlphaGo in a single game. Game 4 out of the 5-Game match. The ONLY time a human beat AlphaGo. Of course the other four games in the match AlphaGo won, but I'm glad they went the full 5 games to give Lee Sedol every chance to win just ONE game. And he did :-)
Too bad Lee Sedol AlphaGo is still quite inferior to Ke Jie AlphaGo, which is in turn inferior to AlphaGo Zero :(
Lee Sedol will go down in history as the last human to ever beat the best AI in go (and perhaps the best AI in any popular board game)
As a Kyu player, the "double elephant eye" in the first fame indeed scared the *** out of me. It's strange, because we are taught early of "good" and "bad" shapes, and the two best examples for them are empty triangle and elephant eye. Yet, dans often play those elephant eyes anyway, often a tobi to the center then cap. I don't know how to defend his.
In my games, SDK players INSTANTLY poke the eye and cut, and then a terrible fight ensues. Here, what would have happen if black, instead of another tobi to the center (G8), poked the shape directly ? So hard to read...
Excellent video BTW, thanks !
the elephant eye isn't a bad shape it just doesn't focus in keeping a connection , yeah i'm sdk and everyone pokes at it but a lot of times it's bad because the cut isn't important and that play forces me to protect myself so..
Who ever heard of Honinbo Shuei?! How about anyone who ever took any time at all to get aquinted with history of the game?
I've studied so many of his games
The board looks gorgeous!
Also I love the wind howling throughout the game. You should totally record it and mix into every stream for extra dramatics.
good real board lecture.
Of course we know of Shuei! Very underestimated player. Maybe even greater than Shusaku.
I do feel for Lee Sedol. We have all known games like that. It's... It makes you want to flip the board!
Windy windy day at Batt's place by the sound of it!
After Ke Jie's opening second line move, tewari analysis shows backing off to not be ideal. If you do Batts' diagonal, and W connnects, and B tenukis, it's the same as if B tenuki'd to the last move first, and then W connects and B backs off, which is a good exchange for W. You can also imagine W played the connecting move F18 first - B should block with G18 to prevent precisely Batts' suggested variation, and so Batts' variation must be at least a little bad for B.
Any top pro as spirited as Lee Sedol will not accept a bad exchange on move 10 just because their opponent is an absolute madman. I think Shuei too would almost certainly have started a fight against that move, especially given how contradictory to opening principles W's move was. And so the fight commences on move 10.
To be honest, though, I like today's state of the game a lot more - it forces top pros to play on knife's edge for the smallest of advantages, as opposed to playing for psychological comfort of the old days. The more that I find myself shaking my head in wonder when I watch Ke Jie's games, the more that I love Go.
Backing off is much simpler. In fact i would also recommend just playing away and ignoring that move, something another pro responded with when ke jie again tried the move. But for basics and simplicity, avoiding the fight and just getting good shape is more than fine enough.
I don't totally buy the tewari, since if Black tenuki's in response to the second-line move, there are other moves White can consider (now or later) beyond simply connecting. It is at least a much more "comfortable" game for Black to diagonal rather than tenuki, and if I didn't know any better I'd say it was a bad exchange for White to connect in gote, but clearly Ke Jie (and Lee Sedol) think otherwise.
Shuei seemed to play like your most hated type of player: the endgamer!
He just took more and more and more toward the end of the game.
Shuei is my fave go player, I'm the crazy he speaks of :)
fun fact - the vast majority of "new" AI moves i GO are actually older joseki that fell out of popularity. WHAT!?
Goes to show you the old masters had it right
I just looked it up. Komi started in the 1930s.
I don't understand why people are bitching so much about this "new bleep bloop style". That's the great thing about go: as long as you're not a professional you can afford to have a style. You don't have to copy what the pros or the AIs play in the opening because what really decides who wins games are all those moves you can't copy or assign to a style. For the pros trying to have such a choice nowadays is a professional risk but I don't think I've heard any of them bitch about it... (Just for the record, I'm right in my claims here by the definition of "style" used here)
When komi was invented in Go?
1920's Japan started exploring the possibility of Komi (from as low as 2.5 to 4.5)
It was widely used by the 1930's getting bumped up over the years.
I have heard
I wouldn’t blame lee Chang ho for the fighting. He had to do it to keep up with Lee Sedol. When he played basic he would lose to sedol. The young up and coming Koreans were just as good as he was at endgame. So he had to end the games earlier.
Great video as usual!
Random question --> Do you have a favorite tsumego app or website you would recommand for kyus ? (round 8k)
i use tsumego pro or the cho chikun collection i'm around 6 -8k
Why would saying gg be bad?
What’s wrong with gg
beats me~
Shuei is my fave he’ll yeah he beats shibano
Was this a teaching game? No aggression at all makes me a sad boy.
The second game is as horrible as the first one was pleasant.