Heat is the main enemy of electrolytic caps. SO yeah lets put them on the back of a warm motor thats right in the airflow stream from the condenser coil. Real smart there whoever designed that.
Oh my man was working on a Trane 10 package the blower motor is massive with a high static blower ECM 😜had to replace $2600. Later and 3 weeks turn around I got the new motor but you have to take the whole top off to change out yea go team Trane
Awesome Video Rick. I deal with a lot of Hussman Reach Ins they are nice but seem to be overly engineered. Got to be friends with one of their tech support guys and he sent me all kinds of info for everything that I work on. Always enjoy your refrigeration videos, since that’s what I love to do.
Very nice job. You really did them right, even though you were refused access to check it the right way. Stay safe. I'm looking forward to your next big road trip for NASA.👍👍
"how dare you" using those pliers with teeth on that poor square head set screw, gouging it to death at 9:39.... 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 I have yet to buy a pair of the smooth jaws. lol
I've heard "a dollar waiting on a dime" Any energy savings could be negated by product loss un necessary service calls equipment like that should be designed for simplicity which leads to reliability
The controller board for the motor Simple capacitor replacement Not made possible because of their Is rubber's Stuff they used to seal The motherboard so it can't be repaired
are those failed capacitors I see at 7:39 on the right? looks like two have the ends bulged, split open and spewed. it must be running hot/over current or way over voltage. makes me wonder, maybe rectifier failure and AC vs. DC chooched them
Will those motors work as a regular motor without the delicate control module? Do solid state caps exist in that size? Cheap electrolytics are for either large capacitance or cheap electronics because they don''t cost squat in bulk.
Is the E2 on this site controlled by a monitoring company and they have username and pass changed? I would find that hard to deal with especially needing a over-ride during the night if monitoring company is open only during the day (operating hours)
Out of context sorry about that but have you seen the Generac load sheds take a poop? Long story but had no power going to my A/H. I checked the usual suspects, float switch, low voltage fuse, breaker, pulled panel 240 coming out of breaker. This had me stumped. It finally dawned on me as I was on the way to Lowes to waste money on a breaker any way that these have load sheds. The power light was off the load shed. I had 240 on the line side of the load shed contactor 0 on the load side. I bypassed it and good to go. Odd thing to me was it was pulled in. A tech called me from the Generator company and explained pulled in is a bad board. Not pulled in is closed. Learn something new everyday. The boards are known to be kaka so Generac put a lifetime warranty on them. I put the wires back on the contactor and pulled the board. Yearly maint. is due so they are coming out doing that and replacing the board. Old boards are green new upgraded boards are blue. They have a line of resistors that are all burned up. Apparently that's how they all go out.
These new "fenagled" eco controlled motors (or whatever you call them) are just plain dumb. I know there is some writeup with calculations somewhere saying - "they will save you THOUSANDS..." - Yeah - probably NOT....use the basic motors and off we go.....great video!
The question I have for the engineers who designed these motor controllers is this: Are you using capacitors rated for the temperature range the controller will be experiencing? Most electrolytics are rated for 85°C (185°F) and I wonder if the controller itself is getting hot enough in situ to damage them... Metal box on a roof, with heat-producing equipment inside that box, and motor controller circuitry inside another metal box (which also generates its own heat) mounted to a motor that generates heat... Perhaps we're not getting anywhere near 185°F inside the controller, but it's certainly getting hotter than ambient temps, and heat is an electrolytic capacitor's worst enemy. I do feel that we're being "penny wise, but pound foolish" here. What good is saving a few dollars a month on your utility bill if your maintenance/repair costs are increased dramatically? I'll give them credit, however; that is one of the nicest OEM wiring jobs I've ever seen in a unit.
They are just doing the least they can do to comply with new energy regulations. Simple as that. It's just a cheap hack. They couldve used a small, fully potted three phase motor like the ones minisplits use, put the controller in the electrical section with a big heatsink. Would've given them the opportunity to actually make use of different speeds depending on load which would actually save energy. And that would actually last because you can design it properly.
you are not even saving any energy once you factor in the energy needed to make the repalcement motor + ship it + transport it in truck to the job site so not only from money but alos an enegry savings stand point its penny wise pound foolish
Even if the caps don't experience temperatures at their rated temp, it still reduces their life. The cooler they run, the longer they last. Same principle applies to just your bog standard run capacitors. Caps on outdoor units will die quicker as they're warmer. Realistically it's just a manufacturer cheaping out on parts. Gotta go for higher rated caps, or make the inverter board separate where it won't cop so much heat.
Great job Rick, I think your adjustable pliers are cool, but I don't have any use for them in the line of work I do, I remember a couple individuals gave you hard time about them, their still useful for your field, I think the cut off tool is cool too, but I can't find reason to buy all the tools out there, for something I wouldn't use daily, The whole I want a tool for every purpose is just mind numbing, I can't see spending my profits on a new tool every time I do large jobs anymore, especially with the prices of food, gas, and rent nowadays, Everything is just killer spending every dollar. Hold on to your Benjamins and Grants.
OK here is the deal fellas. The genius engineers who got college but has to use task rabbit to change the battery in the smoke detector, they have told manufacturers that in order for them to sell in America they have to show energy efficiency. So they had to, throw away all the diagrams of the past that worked well and we carried universals on our trucks, for all this electronic stuff that fails. Like with anything this all beta testing. The customer suffers and they look at the tech like he doesn't know what hes doing because in the past we had a fix on our truck. Loved the silent rant @9:45 BTW Rick. Keep the videos coming.
The problem is the cooler company that built the outdoor unit. They still were still using tech from the 50s and didn't make many efficiency improvements. The government then steps in, because the power draw from refrigeration and cooling in general in the US is ridiculous, and has a ton of room for improvement honestly. The cooler company needs to comply to new regulations and goes "oh crap, this would actually take engineering and effort". Then they source the cheapest motor they can find to comply which doesn't actually solve the problem, but it technically complies. Slap their label onto the cheapest ecm motor they can find and ship it. Using a minisplit style potted three phase motor and external controller heatsinked to the case would actually be way better, but that would be engineering effort those companies don't want to spend.
@16:11 you can see the failure. The capacitors failed there. Look at the top. It should be flat. Now it is convex. Not only that but the second one on the left have a brown dot in the middle, and the leftmost start to have brown. That is the electrolyte inside that leaked out. The cross on the top of the capacitors are vents. They punch the top not fully, which make a weak point. When the capacitor goes bad, pressure inside build up. If the pressure goes up too much then it could explode, or rocket out with massive force when the can will separate from the rubber seal at the bottom. That can be at several hundred PSI. The smaller ones like on computers can rocket with enough force that it dent a bit the computer case !!!! The cross make it weaker, and should rip open safelly. First, the capacitor bulge, then it rip, and the pressure is released. This is a super common issue, and a sign of bad engineering or low quality hardware. It is also possible that it is done on purpose (chemical time bomb to break the device after a while). Capacitors lose about half their life each 10°C in temperature. Lack of cooling drastically lower the life. And if not well made, they can overload the capacitor, which cause it to overheat. Common on cheaper devices and badly made stuff. And of course, they can do it on purpose. And some chinese capacitors manufacturers actually do produce capacitors where the chemical inside is unstable on purpose. 2-5 years and dead. Fun thing, I noticed that the marking on top of the capacitor give an idea of the quality. 3 winded is cheapest. 4 like in this video is ok, K marked is high quality.
> Fun thing, I noticed that the marking on top of the capacitor give an idea of the quality. 3 winded is cheapest. 4 like in this video is ok, K marked is high quality. Just look at the brand. Japanese brands like this Nichicon are good and will likely exceed their ratings. Rubycon or Nippon Chemi-Con are also good Japanese brands. Of course good reputation means that people are making knock-offs, so who knows if the problem here is the manufacturer got counterfeits in the supply chain or if the engineer designed in the wrong capacitor. Also keep in mind that even if it's marked as 105°C, that's still only 2000-3000h rated at that temperature.
If you still have that controller, drop ten bucks into four new capacitors. If you don't know how to cross check, send me the part number and I'll do it. In many cases, the caps have completely blown, which means they don't allow current, so it just doesn't work. new caps, suddenly works. (I resolder a lot of motherboards and power supplies for monitors) I can't promise it'll work, but if it doesn't, you're out 10 bucks and some time. If it does work, you have a spare.
Thank the D.O.E. not the manufacturers for the crap “high efficiency” parts. It’s not easy to meet some of the requirements, so they do whatever they can to save a watt here or there. It also drives up the cost of old school mechanical parts bc none of the manufacturers can use them anymore.
I love these ECM motors. Some Californian company moved into my area within the past couple years. They convinced all these mom and pop shops to changed out all their evap fans and condenser fan motors. Now they are lucky if the motor cost less than 600 dollars for a simple reach in. Plus they voided the warranty on lots of their equipment.
I haven't seen you train anyone in a long time. Our trade is screwed for the future. Your videos will end up on DvDs in the public library under lost HVACR knowledge.
🤦🏻❤️ My main guy Clayton is getting it done on his own now 👍👍 I don't know the other rookies and the office hasn't asked me to run with them. They are mainly doing residential and they know I don't like doing that anymore.
Just remember, ECMs are job security! Most of the time when an ECM goes out, I give the customer an option to swap with an ECM or go with a PSC. 70% of the time they go with a PSC. I've seen so many ECMs and VFDs fail lately. They don't save money. They cost more and create more waste.
My first time watching this channel from England. I stopped watching after a minute or two due to the incessant "subscribe" and "like" banners. I get it, that you want to promote your channel, but you're coming across as desperate (or greedy) at the expense of your content. It's like watching TV with commercial breaks every 60 seconds... it detracts from your video.
That was an accident due to editing while on the road but I fully understand what a major inconvenience it must have been too interrupt my video that spent hours making for you to watch at no cost to you for the 5 seconds it was up. So sorry to see you go👋. Maybe some other time
ECM motor aren't bad, but shouldn't be controlled by a contactor in this way, and should be protected again being abused, also ECM motor shouldn't be so expensive
![เจ็บที่ยังฮัก - ม่อน วรวิทย์ [ Official Mv ] จอนนี่มิวสิค](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KALIGSRSjFs/mqdefault.jpg)
Anybody making quality videos showing there experience for free does way more then they show on video .Hats off to you for supporting the new boys !
@h.v.a.c.rrealist thanks man! You're right! I appreciate the support🤜🤛🙏👍👍
Heat is the main enemy of electrolytic caps. SO yeah lets put them on the back of a warm motor thats right in the airflow stream from the condenser coil. Real smart there whoever designed that.
Rick, TH-cam autocorrected Hussmann to Husband in the description. I use to work at the Suwannee, Georgia plant. Thanks for the videos.
Ok, thanks I'll fix it🤜🤛👍👍
Oh my man was working on a Trane 10 package the blower motor is massive with a high static blower ECM 😜had to replace $2600. Later and 3 weeks turn around I got the new motor but you have to take the whole top off to change out yea go team Trane
That totally makes sense if you don’t think about it. People are stupid. What can we say?
Motors like a dollars spent to save a nickel.. gotta love it. Thanks for sharing Rick 👍🏼
Truth being told 👍👍
Now that’s some clean wire management on the low voltage side.
Awesome Video Rick. I deal with a lot of Hussman Reach Ins they are nice but seem to be overly engineered. Got to be friends with one of their tech support guys and he sent me all kinds of info for everything that I work on. Always enjoy your refrigeration videos, since that’s what I love to do.
Awesome man, thanks for letting me know 🤜🤛🙏
Very nice job. You really did them right, even though you were refused access to check it the right way. Stay safe. I'm looking forward to your next big road trip for NASA.👍👍
Thanks, will do!
Excellent fix 👍
"how dare you" using those pliers with teeth on that poor square head set screw, gouging it to death at 9:39.... 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I have yet to buy a pair of the smooth jaws. lol
I know, I'm ruthless that way 😘
Nice job, Rick.
Thanks for watching brother Steve🤜🤛🍺🍺👍👍
Love your videos
Thank you very much!
Cool video Rickster!
Thanks for the visit
nice work Rick.
Penny wise and Dollar foolish !! My Dad's favorite saying
Isn't it penny wise...pound foolish....not that im trying to be "that guy"
it's brilliant that on a three phase unit they use a single phase ecm so that it's more efficient by the 3 phase nature of ecm... cant fix stupid!
I agree 💯%
I've heard "a dollar waiting on a dime"
Any energy savings could be negated by product loss un necessary service calls equipment like that should be designed for simplicity which leads to reliability
really good job fixing this unit Rick, a true regular maintenance really goes a long way and saves more than super expensive eco unit
Packard 40265 would work probably. I stock those
I'll have to look it up.
The controller board for the motor Simple capacitor replacement Not made possible because of their Is rubber's Stuff they used to seal The motherboard so it can't be repaired
are those failed capacitors I see at 7:39 on the right? looks like two have the ends bulged, split open and spewed. it must be running hot/over current or way over voltage.
makes me wonder, maybe rectifier failure and AC vs. DC chooched them
Likely runs too hot, it's in a sealed metal container with condenser air being pulled over top of it. Sounds like a good design to me 😁(for sales)
Great video Rick. Thanks for sharing as always.
Nice work as usual Rick. Thank you.
Very welcome🙏
These ecm motors hard on small Mom and pop stores and home furnaces. Every time is over $1500.
Which is ironic because they just optimizing to a specific static pressure in a ~$20 PCB. Not like that's ultra complicated stuff.
Great job Rick.
Will those motors work as a regular motor without the delicate control module?
Do solid state caps exist in that size? Cheap electrolytics are for either large capacitance or cheap electronics because they don''t cost squat in bulk.
I haven’t tried it without the electronics but I would guess it’s a DC motor and wouldn’t work.
Great Job Rick
Is the E2 on this site controlled by a monitoring company and they have username and pass changed? I would find that hard to deal with especially needing a over-ride during the night if monitoring company is open only during the day (operating hours)
Correct. I wish we wouldn’t have to run there calls. I’m a person that says trust me or don’t do business with us but I’m just an employee.
Out of context sorry about that but have you seen the Generac load sheds take a poop? Long story but had no power going to my A/H. I checked the usual suspects, float switch, low voltage fuse, breaker, pulled panel 240 coming out of breaker. This had me stumped. It finally dawned on me as I was on the way to Lowes to waste money on a breaker any way that these have load sheds. The power light was off the load shed. I had 240 on the line side of the load shed contactor 0 on the load side. I bypassed it and good to go. Odd thing to me was it was pulled in. A tech called me from the Generator company and explained pulled in is a bad board. Not pulled in is closed. Learn something new everyday. The boards are known to be kaka so Generac put a lifetime warranty on them. I put the wires back on the contactor and pulled the board. Yearly maint. is due so they are coming out doing that and replacing the board. Old boards are green new upgraded boards are blue. They have a line of resistors that are all burned up. Apparently that's how they all go out.
I'm not working with generators at this company much compared to the place I was prior. But I did have one go bad. Thanks for sharing👍👍
Thank you for your videos.
My pleasure! Thanks for watching them.
These new "fenagled" eco controlled motors (or whatever you call them) are just plain dumb. I know there is some writeup with calculations somewhere saying - "they will save you THOUSANDS..." - Yeah - probably NOT....use the basic motors and off we go.....great video!
Plugged coil or dirty filter actually causes the motor to work less, less air flow lower current draw
Rick, It was another awesome video !
Curious to know, do these places have any kind of surge protection on their equipment? For us it’s usually voltage surges that takes em out.
No external protection I know of
Great job and yes you should film the next NASA job.
I am as well speak
The question I have for the engineers who designed these motor controllers is this:
Are you using capacitors rated for the temperature range the controller will be experiencing?
Most electrolytics are rated for 85°C (185°F) and I wonder if the controller itself is getting hot enough in situ to damage them... Metal box on a roof, with heat-producing equipment inside that box, and motor controller circuitry inside another metal box (which also generates its own heat) mounted to a motor that generates heat... Perhaps we're not getting anywhere near 185°F inside the controller, but it's certainly getting hotter than ambient temps, and heat is an electrolytic capacitor's worst enemy.
I do feel that we're being "penny wise, but pound foolish" here. What good is saving a few dollars a month on your utility bill if your maintenance/repair costs are increased dramatically? I'll give them credit, however; that is one of the nicest OEM wiring jobs I've ever seen in a unit.
I agree with everything you're saying🍺👍👍
Even the 105 degree caps that I work with would have a hard time with a lot of the temperatures there.
They are just doing the least they can do to comply with new energy regulations. Simple as that. It's just a cheap hack. They couldve used a small, fully potted three phase motor like the ones minisplits use, put the controller in the electrical section with a big heatsink. Would've given them the opportunity to actually make use of different speeds depending on load which would actually save energy. And that would actually last because you can design it properly.
you are not even saving any energy once you factor in the energy needed to make the repalcement motor + ship it + transport it in truck to the job site so not only from money but alos an enegry savings stand point its penny wise pound foolish
Even if the caps don't experience temperatures at their rated temp, it still reduces their life. The cooler they run, the longer they last. Same principle applies to just your bog standard run capacitors. Caps on outdoor units will die quicker as they're warmer.
Realistically it's just a manufacturer cheaping out on parts. Gotta go for higher rated caps, or make the inverter board separate where it won't cop so much heat.
Great Video. Thank you for sharing.
🤜🤛👍👍
Yeah buddy.....awesome video as always Mr Rick....always enjoy your content
Thanks Jason! 🤜🤛👍👍
Never heard that saying.
Stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime.
Nickel holding up a dollar 🤣
Great job Rick, I think your adjustable pliers are cool, but I don't have any use for them in the line of work I do, I remember a couple individuals gave you hard time about them, their still useful for your field, I think the cut off tool is cool too, but I can't find reason to buy all the tools out there, for something I wouldn't use daily, The whole I want a tool for every purpose is just mind numbing, I can't see spending my profits on a new tool every time I do large jobs anymore, especially with the prices of food, gas, and rent nowadays, Everything is just killer spending every dollar. Hold on to your Benjamins and Grants.
OK here is the deal fellas. The genius engineers who got college but has to use task rabbit to change the battery in the smoke detector, they have told manufacturers that in order for them to sell in America they have to show energy efficiency. So they had to, throw away all the diagrams of the past that worked well and we carried universals on our trucks, for all this electronic stuff that fails. Like with anything this all beta testing. The customer suffers and they look at the tech like he doesn't know what hes doing because in the past we had a fix on our truck.
Loved the silent rant @9:45 BTW Rick. Keep the videos coming.
I had to say to myself for a second, "what's he talking about", then I clicked the time stamp and holy crap you made me laugh. 🤣🤣👍👍
The problem is the cooler company that built the outdoor unit. They still were still using tech from the 50s and didn't make many efficiency improvements. The government then steps in, because the power draw from refrigeration and cooling in general in the US is ridiculous, and has a ton of room for improvement honestly. The cooler company needs to comply to new regulations and goes "oh crap, this would actually take engineering and effort". Then they source the cheapest motor they can find to comply which doesn't actually solve the problem, but it technically complies. Slap their label onto the cheapest ecm motor they can find and ship it. Using a minisplit style potted three phase motor and external controller heatsinked to the case would actually be way better, but that would be engineering effort those companies don't want to spend.
Right on
Hey John! Haven't heard from you in a minute 👋
Nice job young man Thx for sharing
Nice work
@16:11 you can see the failure. The capacitors failed there. Look at the top. It should be flat. Now it is convex. Not only that but the second one on the left have a brown dot in the middle, and the leftmost start to have brown. That is the electrolyte inside that leaked out.
The cross on the top of the capacitors are vents. They punch the top not fully, which make a weak point. When the capacitor goes bad, pressure inside build up. If the pressure goes up too much then it could explode, or rocket out with massive force when the can will separate from the rubber seal at the bottom. That can be at several hundred PSI. The smaller ones like on computers can rocket with enough force that it dent a bit the computer case !!!!
The cross make it weaker, and should rip open safelly. First, the capacitor bulge, then it rip, and the pressure is released.
This is a super common issue, and a sign of bad engineering or low quality hardware. It is also possible that it is done on purpose (chemical time bomb to break the device after a while).
Capacitors lose about half their life each 10°C in temperature. Lack of cooling drastically lower the life.
And if not well made, they can overload the capacitor, which cause it to overheat. Common on cheaper devices and badly made stuff.
And of course, they can do it on purpose. And some chinese capacitors manufacturers actually do produce capacitors where the chemical inside is unstable on purpose. 2-5 years and dead.
Fun thing, I noticed that the marking on top of the capacitor give an idea of the quality. 3 winded is cheapest. 4 like in this video is ok, K marked is high quality.
> Fun thing, I noticed that the marking on top of the capacitor give an idea of the quality. 3 winded is cheapest. 4 like in this video is ok, K marked is high quality.
Just look at the brand. Japanese brands like this Nichicon are good and will likely exceed their ratings. Rubycon or Nippon Chemi-Con are also good Japanese brands.
Of course good reputation means that people are making knock-offs, so who knows if the problem here is the manufacturer got counterfeits in the supply chain or if the engineer designed in the wrong capacitor.
Also keep in mind that even if it's marked as 105°C, that's still only 2000-3000h rated at that temperature.
@@flagman3116 Standard is 1000 hours.
Another awesome video
"Everything is made cheap nowdays" That's the problem with ECMs, they work for a while when the manufacturer cheaps out on components.
Agreed 👍
👍💪🇺🇸❄️ great work thanks for sharing
If you still have that controller, drop ten bucks into four new capacitors. If you don't know how to cross check, send me the part number and I'll do it. In many cases, the caps have completely blown, which means they don't allow current, so it just doesn't work. new caps, suddenly works. (I resolder a lot of motherboards and power supplies for monitors)
I can't promise it'll work, but if it doesn't, you're out 10 bucks and some time. If it does work, you have a spare.
That unit is beautifully wired. Why can't that be the norm?
Imagine getting a strong gust of wind and the 100 dollar bill takes off into the distance. Make some hobo near by think god is giving him a gift.
Then that meant the coil was dirty🤣
I use my hat. If it can't hold my hat, it's dirty.
X13 motors are worthless when filters and or coils are never replaced or cleaned
👍👍👍
I have had people replace furnaces that are 11 years old cause you cant get a module. And the replacment ecm motor is 3500$ or more. So stupid
👍🧿🇹🇷 dollar test was nice
Great retro job Rick. Woke world equipment is junk!
What did the "woke" have to do with that ?
The woke mentality is all about saving the environment at all costs even if it means removing human life from Earth
Thank the D.O.E. not the manufacturers for the crap “high efficiency” parts. It’s not easy to meet some of the requirements, so they do whatever they can to save a watt here or there. It also drives up the cost of old school mechanical parts bc none of the manufacturers can use them anymore.
I know
Are u union?
No
I love these ECM motors. Some Californian company moved into my area within the past couple years. They convinced all these mom and pop shops to changed out all their evap fans and condenser fan motors. Now they are lucky if the motor cost less than 600 dollars for a simple reach in. Plus they voided the warranty on lots of their equipment.
That's BS 🤔
X13 garbage, the 30% they saved is now -1000%
I haven't seen you train anyone in a long time. Our trade is screwed for the future.
Your videos will end up on DvDs in the public library under lost HVACR knowledge.
🤦🏻❤️ My main guy Clayton is getting it done on his own now 👍👍 I don't know the other rookies and the office hasn't asked me to run with them. They are mainly doing residential and they know I don't like doing that anymore.
622 thumbs up
Just remember, ECMs are job security! Most of the time when an ECM goes out, I give the customer an option to swap with an ECM or go with a PSC. 70% of the time they go with a PSC. I've seen so many ECMs and VFDs fail lately. They don't save money. They cost more and create more waste.
My first time watching this channel from England. I stopped watching after a minute or two due to the incessant "subscribe" and "like" banners. I get it, that you want to promote your channel, but you're coming across as desperate (or greedy) at the expense of your content. It's like watching TV with commercial breaks every 60 seconds... it detracts from your video.
That was an accident due to editing while on the road but I fully understand what a major inconvenience it must have been too interrupt my video that spent hours making for you to watch at no cost to you for the 5 seconds it was up. So sorry to see you go👋. Maybe some other time
👍🏽
Ecm motors are trash
I've heard penny wise, dollar stupid before
"Penny wise, pound foolish" is the British version.
ECM motor aren't bad, but shouldn't be controlled by a contactor in this way, and should be protected again being abused, also ECM motor shouldn't be so expensive