Why Modern Life feels meaningless | Lex Fridman and John Vervaeke
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.พ. 2024
- @johnvervaeke and @lexfridman delve into the heart of the modern meaning crisis, revealing how our innate quest for wisdom is thwarted by a world awash in information but starved of meaning.
John's Main Channel: / @johnvervaeke
Watch the full episode here: • John Vervaeke: Meaning...
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What ive learnt is when you isolate yourself for extended periods of time you realise how much bullshit goes on in our day to day existence.
At the same time, you stop being able to detect the bullshit you generate the more isolated you become.
Back to nature. And use of common sense. 😊
Can you give us an example that you can share with us?
@@JohnVervaekeClipssee my comments, jew
personally when i went into the cave if you will i was aware of all the intellectual and materialistic and moral peacocking that is constantly happening, subconscious or no@@JohnVervaekeClips
Going to the phone to get wisdom about how the phone isn’t where we go to for wisdom
The problem is none of our natural instincts and strengths are required. Men used to have to hunt everyday to provide, build, train, protect our families, and survive. Nowadays, we just hit buttons on a keyboard and stare at a screen while locked indoors sitting in a chair to provide.
100%. The only way men can really be men anymore and make a living is to live stream it :P
Yeah back in 1972 when we all hunted in packs
Feelings of meaninglessness, depression, and despair are precisely what drive us to fulfill subjective meaning by doing all sorts of things like starting families, producing art, buying things we need and don't need, going to school, getting interested in politics, etc...etc...etc... It's adaptive.
Yes but as Bukowski said, (if you're an atheist): hospitals fill, graveyards fill, prisons fill, nothing else fills.
People also do art for the love of art. They can be happy, sad, or indifferent; they’re still gonna make art. Granted, some of the best art & music were made under “lower frequencies”.
Those things are not meaning in themselves those are actions that don’t justify themselves if you are viewing the world through a nihilistic lens
Well put
Bullsh begets bullsh.
The more access we have to each other, the less we value each other.
Looking at history we never really valued one another that much anyway.
The book of Ecclesiastes addresses this in depth and was written ~2500-2900 years ago.
Thats a sizable amount of time how did their values remain similar?
@@larrybird9425because humans are still human
@@larrybird9425 The book was written by King Solomon who was one of the wealthiest humans to ever live. Aside from wanting for nothing, he had every worldly pleasure in the highest levels of excess imaginable, so from a human perspective that's obviously similar to many modern people this video is talking about. Solomon's conclusion was no matter how much you work or acquire things or pursue pleasure, there's no ultimate fulfillment to be found in any of it and the only true meaning in this life is in following God.
@@andymiguel368and serving others and making THEIR lives better :)
@@stevrgrsbut now so many people seem undeserving of your effort. The selfishness and aggression feels pervasive in American society
I feel like I’ve gotten a second chance at life, now I don’t question the meaning of it, I just take it for what it is. I feel like we expect too much out of life and the happiest I’ve ever been is when I don’t focus on my desires and just find peace in what I have.
Same here
Thank you for sharing that!
Incredibly interesting topic from a unique perspective. My biggest feedback- simplify responses to something everyone can understand.
The jargon takes away from my ability to absorb what really matters in John’s responses. I found myself spending most of my mental energy “decoding” sentences. I would much rather spend my mental energy focusing on the new ideas and unique perspectives that John is proposing.
For example around the 5min mark: “There is a functionality to religion that we lost when we rejected all the propositional dogma”. This isn’t a crazy complicated sentence. But it is unusual enough to require significant energy to break it down to: “There are benefits of religion we lost when we rejected religion as a whole” (honestly, I’m not 100% sure this is what John meant but that adds to my point).
I’m an engineer. A big part of my career is explaining engineering ideas to non-engineers in a way they will understand. I find that jargon is only beneficial for me and detrimental to my audience.
I don’t think I speak for myself here. I would imagine most people watching this talk truly understood a small percentage. It’s a shame considering how interesting the topic is. Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Huge props to Lex to being able to follow along as well as he did.
While your simplified version is correct, it's less precise. The difference between functionally knowing and prepositional knowing was relevant here.
Thanks for your feedback!
We're becoming too outwardly. Too much dependency on external things to give happiness. External happiness is not real. Its a delusion which only lasts a while and then we want something new to feel that happiness again. The true bliss comes when we move inwards, that's everlasting and ever growing happiness. Then it doesn't matter if you're sitting alone in a cave for years, as long as you're moving inwards and connecting with your higher self you won't need anything or anybody to be happy. I have started the inward journey and it's true bliss. I hope that we all reach the highest level in finding and connecting with our higher selves.
Don't agree with this at all.
No man is an island. We are social creatures, we are embedded within relationships (wife, family, friends, colleagues, local community) - you cannot find true meaning or happiness just from living in a cave on your own.
In fact the more you focus inwardly on yourself the more depressed you will become. There is a reason solitary confinement is so terrible for the human psyche.
From my experience so far I feel much more grounded embracing materialism and seeking connection- bliss in play.
@@earnshaw24I second this. The more you think about yourself, and especially your current emotional state, the more miserable you will be.
@@andrews.2980 I'm going to come to OPs defense here and say whilst I think both the concept of isolation and pondering about your self are poor examples, and a bad way to spend your time, I absolutely understand the point they are trying to make. Capitalism has done a really good job of filling our days with stuff to occupy us, and social media firms have invested billions learning how to successfully trap our attention with algorithms, but all that stuff is very short lived. You don't need any of it, and I've learnt that the best way to destress after a hard day is to go home and just play with my dogs, get on the floor and roll around, chase them. It costs nothing, requires nothing but being present and it feels amazing.
Likewise, a bit of meditation can do you the world of good for both your mental and physical health, and we can all access this for free, at any time.
@@andrews.2980@earnshaw24
The problem here is you're both wrong. You claim that you can't have meaning in life with being alone in a cave. How do you know that? It's an assumption. You just cant imagine It. and by the second comment you can't imagine it because you bring up that you become miserable when reflecting too long inwardly.
I'll propose that after you cross that chasm of inward misery, void, whatever you want to call it, you eventually reach a place of an elevated state of consciousness that is more real and joyful and true than anything you've ever experienced. If you can't imagine it or accept what I'm saying, you should at least admit that it's because you haven't experienced it yourself. But it's there.
Life is absurd - A Camus
The reason is the common-unity, the trust and faith shared when we do something together based on an underlying understanding and knowing of that which is infinite and sacred in our life and lives. It's very simple, so obvious we overlook it all the time, yet it is always there if we would stop and appreciate the little moments of magic in connecting deeply. And depth is in the unknown, the mystery of life. We all know it and without feeling or re-member-ing it life becomes meaningless.
Wow, thank you for taking the time to leave such a beautiful comment!
Makes sense to me.
It's not only about the sense of common-unity (we can simulate that with social media and internet algoritms), but about using that common-unity to remember the sacredness and the infinite (also can be simulated, although not happening).
The practices that lead to that are the ecologies of practices that we've lost. The much needed psycho-technologies to feed our perspectival-participatory-knowing needs.
@@JohnVervaekeClips Thank you for your amazing podcasts! I just discovered your work and teachings through McGilchrist, and am so grateful that I found such a brilliant and passionate teacher, once more ;)
If there is one thing technology offers us is the access to may wonderful teachers and teachings.
So the gratitude lies with me! Namaste!!
@@brunoivanamadori1571 I disagree that we can simulate common-unity, because it involves influencing the biophysioosocial aspects of being in a positively aspirational manner, which tech is unable to do.
It negatively affects biophysiological aspects with addictive and selfrepressive hormones that undermine the impacts social and therefore real connection and community.
Thank you for bringing light to philosophy by having an actual professional philosopher on. Thank you.
Very thought provoking. Thanks for this.
Damn I picked the right video to spark up a j to
Life is about being strong, healthy & happy. The rest is bullshit.
- Wim Hof
For me the functional merits of religion lie in the fact that they constantly make you reconsider your size and scope within the universe. You have to deal with your own mortality compared to that of the infinite God.
Religion commands you to believe in something much bigger than ourselves.
This was an awesome episode. Wasn’t familiar with Mr. Vervaeke before this, but getting to listen to his perspectives on such difficult topics and then you trying to understand them while I was felt like the three of us were attempting to tackle an unanswerable question together.
Very interesting chat and makes me glad I studied philosophy, as it prepares you for the fact that life requires imagination and the crafting of one’s own meaningfulness. Respect
Absolutely brilliant John and Lex, well done
Thank you for the kind comment Daniel!
Fantastic talk, thank you 🎉
I just stumbled across this and WOW what an impressive set of ideas. There were several breakthrough concepts that were novel (at least to me). I need to find more material on this.
Check out his awakening from the meaning crisis series. Life changing.
Thank you for the nice comments guys, really appreciated.
David has a good suggestion. If you want to take a deep dive into this topic check out the Awakening from the Meaning Crisis Series on the Main Channel!
Whoa. Perfect timing. Thanks
Perfect!
Super interesting thoughts. When my father left our family when I was 19 years old, as a young man, I went through a crisis of self. This question huanted me when grappling with what direction I ought to take in life.
With a super unorthodox religious qausi atheist upbringing the ground for an internal battle between fear and wonder nearly ruined me.
I've almost given up on answering this question. We can all sense the crisis of meaning if we only pause for long enough.
One of my fears is we will cram that hole with our new "messiahs" - *autonomous artificial intelligence* and just kick the can down the road.
I'm definitely watching the full version! ❤
Thank you so much for sharing your story William. If you want to take a guided deep dive into the topic of the Meaning Crisis you can check out the "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis" Series on the Main Channel: th-cam.com/video/iu9fa4TkWE0/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Yeah, in my novel, an AI therapist basically tries to become a god and get all humans to align under it, triggering the Singularity.
This was fascinating
I LITERALLY THINK OF THIS 24/7!!!!! I was starting to think that I’m crazy 🥲😭. I’ve been thinking of how to accomplish this since I was 19yo. It really is serendipitous to know that someone else is pondering this matter. Especially someone educated at the level you are Dr. Vervaeke. I currently feel the only modality to accomplish this is through art, or an entirely new institution. We have the means in modern day society, just lacking the “soul” to get there. At the end of the day, people will have to be compelled by social forces to adapt this form of thinking/operating. Thank you for this clip. 🙏 Lex led me here.
I absolutely love this conversation! And I'm with you on the thinking about it 24/7. Let me know if you want to share thoughts.
Marriage is the one constant social structure common to all cultures that enhances connectedness and fitness.
Absolutely fascinating. Quite a philosophical and onotological web we weave for ourselves.
This was so interesting Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
Stop checking social media and focus on your family and yourself
Vervaeke's work has inspired me to start making my own existential psychotherapy courses and group sessions, it's going very well!
Wonderful!
Life has inherent meaning.
But our programming and beliefs and attitudes block our vision and narrow our vision so we can't see the whole picture
What's the inherit meaning.
@@Darko1.0 experience itself. Experience that you become when being aware of your attention. In modern times I think they call this "mindfullness" allthough I would rather call it mind emptiness
This is such a great clip. Interesting to think how we created technologies to allow for accessing/developing/spreading specific knowledge purposes. So, how to upgrade is the question and task at hand.. there is so much info in these 16 minutes..
We've all been reduced to atomized individuals alienated from each other working paycheck to paycheck
Existence is Purposeless. Make your own Purpose, if you even want to.
Yes, that's what we've been taught. The enlightenment scripture.
@@johnw6992... Which means it's true. There was always a choice...some people just didn't want you to know it.
The functionality part was very interesting
8:06 I found this very interesting that you called out the distinction between "adjectival and the adverbial qualia", as it echoes a distinction that I have made often, but almost never found anyone else with whom it resonates. I tend to group nouns and adjectives together and also verbs and adverbs, and I notice that many times nouns and adjectives reduce to verbs and adverbs. Often times, the distinction depends on the level of abstraction.
My hero and fellow Torontonian, "the religion that's not a religion" ❤
John where does the knowledge of insight or realisation come into the picture? It seems to be the most transformative process, almost a sort of pure knowing, the dawning of a new level of awareness. Thank you
"Awakening from the meaning crisis - Episode 9: Insight" on his channel
There’re too much unnecessary suffering in our society. When people are suffering they look for the meaning of life, not the other way around. Think about life as a big party, if you are having a good time at the party, you don’t care about the meaning of this party. A good life is a meaningless one. Most philosophers are miserable people.
corporations suck the spirit dry. profit driven ways ruin us of our true selves. children don't care about profit. pure fun is experimentation.
the diluted and corrupted don't have to care about anyone but themselves at the top of the mountain. they plan for an endless world.
doing anything as a halfway decent person that is open source work, volunteering some time, and helping others where you can is the best start to keeping the "non-rich majority club" rich in the spirit.
How many philosophers do you know, man? I disagree. Deep thinking does not indicate suffering. Gautama Buddha found that suffering is really a resistance to life rather than accepting the conditions we can't change. Which is very similar to what you are saying. However, he WAS a philosopher (amongst other things) until he came to this realization. In that sense, philosophy could be the path to the end of suffering.
Haha, seeing how many people are still into Taylor swift brings me hope, the basic white bitch society is still alive and well, being isolated and depressed and getting my bearings on society through my phone has made me think otherwise
Where do you go for wisdom?
🙋♂Your own self. Meditation...You go inside for wisdom. To the no-mind state. Wisdom pours out of something that is not conceptual. Comes from a state of being. It's a byproduct of attentive alertness. Pure consciousness. Awareness.
8:59 lol nice. 'ink spillage'. too good.
Hey everyone! I just also saw this for the first time… from watching Lex for years. This podcast was apparently almost 2 years ago.
Just curious, what are y’all careers? I’m on the path of becoming a CS professor. I’ve been through quite a bit of societal positions growing up. It seems so many people are living sad today, working just to live…
This conversation and the many comments are enlightening! It seems there are few of us out here that realize something ain’t right lol.
Let’s hope we can help others see this and as a democracy we can try to promote change :)
Thank you i really appreciate this you can put into words what i just vaguely understand as a thought that comes to mind about my self , its really helpful ( its like you're describing color to a blind person )
What religion provides is the mystical experience of transcendence. It's that feeling of awe that there is something bigger than you and that goes beyond you.
I’m not an expert, but I think finding real life meaning probably ought to begin with the devotion to something greater than oneself. It can be devotion to a divine being. It can be a devotion to a cause like helping others. Whatever that devotion is should translate to energy spent toward something or someone else. And that energy will in some way reverberate back to you.
Thanks for sharing your opinion!
The answer is love
I think it feels meaningless, because most of us were not seen by our parents because they were not seen by their parents. We created a society where we are not seen for who we are. We are living from a place of false selves and experience meaninglessness as a consequence.
Interesting take!
Offsprings preserve will say "REMEMBER"!
Hence why "Self-Deception" is the #1 of the 10-Enemies of self-improvement in Theory of Self-Relativity
It’s presumptuous to assume people you do not know feel no meaning
2:05 VERY profound perspective!!!!
Thanks for the compliment...its really appreciated!
It hurts to hear someone with such a big plataform and with such an education say “philosophers get paid to waste ink” and “Nietzsche is full of romantic bullshit”
Yeah. Stephen Hawking in one of his last books starts the book by saying "Philosophy is dead." And then goes on to write a 300 page philosophical explanation of why philosophy is dead. Scientific fundamentalists are a dangerous breed.
Nietzsche is full of bullshit though. Philosophy is just writing that is extremely self conscious and self-critical. To think you can devote your entire life to that end and not go insane is... dare I say delusional. Nietzsche had great insights, yes. But his writing is also filled to the brim with romantic bullshit
I’m wondering if John would agree to some extent that the emphasis on the intellectualisation of everything in the modern and increasingly digital ‘knowledge economy’ has contributed to this lack of deeper meaning, in the sense that it solely targets our propositional knowing at the expense of our procedural and perspectival knowing. The disembodied experience of accessing, interpreting, manipulating and communicating information remotely via our digital channels negates the need for engaging with the physical world and learning through an ‘ecology of practices’ as John would put it.
In this sense, we stimulate our own intellect without the lived experience of interacting with tangible objects and fellow beings that stimulates our embodied ways of knowing. I suspect this is why John values the martial arts so highly as a practice, to balance his academic work. So, with both the market* and government policy disincentivising the development of teachers, doctors, environmental work, skilled labourers and many other positions that require an ecology of practices (at least embodied knowledge as well as theoretical) is it incumbent upon us as individuals to ensure that we seek and engage in a balanced variety of activities in our own lives outside of work, in order to safeguard our mental health?
* Here I’m referring to modern neoliberal markets in developed westernised countries, with my own experience being the UK. This will undoubtedly vary in other nations. While these jobs do obviously exist in the UK, the push seems to be increasingly towards a digital service-based economy. Perhaps I’m wrong, and this is merely the internet bubble that the algorithm has inflated around me.
such penetrating analysis
To the idea of how many selves are there. With the possibility of different agent/arena relationships between hemispheres.
There is a theory in psychology of self states. Which as i understand it explains ourselves not as a unified whole but as a series of selves based upon our emotional/psychological state in any given moment.
Would this fit in with the agent/arena idea in any significant way? Or as being more metaphysical be unhelpful in any empirical understanding?
What a fascinating conversation btw!
Threefold training: Precept (Discipline), Concentration and Wisdom.
"With more knowledge comes more sorrow" -King Solomon
Mr. Vervaeke,
Considering your deep interest and passion about our modern meaning crisis, it is very important that you explore the 'Instinct Vs. Intellect' theory, as presented in Jeremy Griffith's definitive book, 'Freedom: The End of the Human Condition'.
It's **belief in the afterlife** not religion that makes for a profoundly more intrinsic sense of meaning. In the past the idea had so much utility, and still would if it were less intellectually optional.
I agree. When you believe in the afterlife, you begin to play the long game and that is where wisdom resides.
@@garyquade1975 I wish I did sometimes, however I find life rich and meaningful without it. Scarcity principle applies. There are no second chances, and there is no singular judgment or way to live.
There are other ways of seeing it which are better, in my opinion. I would start by asking, "who is living after death" and, "where was this one before this life"? Lex talks about replacing the concept of God with something as if you were replacing a smart phone. His choice of analogy betrays his "new god" candidate. Technology. Which is something humans created. Rather than a force of nature from which humans emerged and within which humans exist. His technology god is idiotic when you put all of this into perspective.
If the earth wasn’t here, we wouldn’t be here. If the galaxy wasn’t here, the earth wouldn’t be here. everything we can experience, including and up to our death, all still happened here. There is no such thing as empty space or some place where nothing exists. Being alive means you’ve popped in, death is popping out. Either way, it all took place here.
Hey John, what is an individual to do when it feels like you are generating as much meaning as you can but other people or myself end up sabotaging the meaning and it’s a cycle of having to regrow a meaning tree over and over leaving me feeling like I’m locked in a ground hog day hell with the understanding life isn’t what I thought it was and I’m left to endure the cycle of suffering.
What exactly do you mean by 'sabotaging the meaning'? I feel like if you're talking about foundational meaning, there's little someone could do to rattle that.
That functionality is by trying to connect with something greater than one’s self then the person actually expands in a sense. The act of mentally and emotionally connecting with the fundamental source of the universe changes people.
In my life there is someone external that now ives with me internally.
“At different degrees, everything is pathology except indifference.”
-Emil Cioran
Interesting quotes...what do you think it means?
I’m indifferent to your query…
Totally backwards. Indifference is the pathology.
@@baTonkaTruckMy bad-I quoted Cioran erroneously-I should have written “At different degrees, nothing is pathology except indifference.” Yeah….now the axiom resonates as it should. Thanks for helping me out.
“Life is a death sentence. On the bright side, it’s only temporary.”
John 4:14 "But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.”
...different ways of knowing...Listen here, Douglas Murray..,
Realize that you are the universe experiencing itself as you. That it's your responsibility to give it meaning, sensation, wholeness through the unique prism of your self. We don't need Moses or Saint Peter. Just a sense of being part of the vastness, not apart or subject to it.
Life has no goal and/or meaning as such. It is just existence/awareness/consciousness living through us for it's own entertainment or more like a divine play. That is all there is to life.
Intriguing perspective, how did you came to this conclusion?
Bec. I went thru a lot of material over the years from all religions etc but finally found some logic in ancient Indian vedic thought. It was the only text that wasnt pointing me in any direction but just simply stated as ancient Indian seers resolved the complexity of life by diving inwards. @@JohnVervaekeClips
As a german, and thus a non-native speaker, I've never felt that the word "wisdom" is really appropriate for what John has in mind. A great many people within the corner, or the internet, pick it up and immediately use it. But it feels wrong and very much displaced. - The very moment John says: "Where do you go for wisdom?" And then alludes to the silence of his students, I would've said to him: "Of course, they are silent. They neither understand what wisdom is, nor do they attach the same meaning to it as you do."
- To feel embedded or connected is not the same as wisdom. And I think he is (already) in the stream of an ancient tradition where those two things were not distinct from each other. But for modern people and those who are somewhat acquaninted with the use of the term, they will always feel that his use of the term is somewhat strange and very disconnected from their use and understanding of it. And the consequence is that you have to - again - cultivate and overcome (!) the discomfort of someone using a language, which means very different things, compared to the things, which you usually would associate with it. I think, the term "wisdom" is a very poorly chosen term, even if it is connected to ancient traditions. Maybe even: Because it is connected to them.
Excellent point. He see seemed very confused. To place rationality as a guidance post in life shows deep ignorance about human nature. Sad.
You are correct I was thinking the exact same thing. I think that most people and students would not even differentiate between information, knowledge and wisdom. They are trying to figure out what the difference is between these things. Wisdom (if it means religious teachings, or philosphy is all over the internet) connecting and feeling a sense of purpose and real intimacy with others on the other hand is hard to find. Especially, when devices, work life. and other pressures are tapping into your brain.
Religion at its finest, is wisdom and humanity at its finest.
And brainwashing
@@laaaliiiluuu the thoughts that led to religious "brainswashing" were merely determined chemical reactions according to the atheist paradigm, and the thoughts that led to you saying relgion is "brainwashing" is also just a determined chemical reaction. So knowledge of truth is actually impossible under atheism. There is no free agent determining whether something is true or false, there is only matter in motion, cause and effect.
@@laaaliiiluuuso what is not “brainwashing”
The truth...@@intello8953
@@laaaliiiluuuBrother, I don't know what religion is. But you've been sold a lie about the scripture. I would say it's more like a secret weapon more than it is brainwashing. It's like a treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. If I could sum up the scripture in one word, I would say "RELATIONSHIPS." It's a book about living life and having relationships with those around you, and ultimately having a relationship with the creator. It promises joy, fulfillment and abundance when you follow the guidelines.
Now you can choose to believe that you came from nothing, which is meaningless and empty. Or you can choose to believe that you have a creator, and your role on Earth is to serve others and create. If you believe the latter, you have an advantage over people who think they evolved from lower lifeforms, because you're trying to make yourself like the perfect image.
Maybe if you remove all the meaning people used to have and shit all over it and treat it as worthless life will feel meaningless generations later
Except that never happened. The Enlightenment and proceeding scientific revolutions may have reduced the church’s role in adjudicating the nature of reality, but there are very few serious cosmologists today who claim to have any argument against what is untestable. More importantly, meaning can be imbued in cultural myths or religions, but is always reified subjectively which guarantees that meaning will always change in the course of time as values and ethics change. While I understand the value of cultural tradition, an ossified worldview is akin to wearing blinders- and there are many who crave it deeply. There are also those of us who chose to confront the meaning crisis without reliance upon dogmatic scripture and instead, attempt to integrate the best of what science has on offer into an ecology of practices that allow for communal conversations across theological chasms.
The analogy is something like a gold medal given for someone who took steroids.
While people don’t know the lie, it has meaning. And then, when it is discovered to be based on an undesirable thing, it is taken from the person. Stripped of its meaning.
The meaning itself is not lost.
It is simply taken from something corrupted and redefined into something less corruptible, more complex, and useful.
It used to be meaningful to be loyal to your company. But why? What was the foundation? It just was.
That had to go in order to build something else we desired instead.
It used to be meaningful to conquer and enslave other peoples. That has been stripped of its meaning and more nuanced values are being generated in our more conscious world.
If you can remove the meaning from something then it was never objectively meaningful in the first place.
@@abstractentities354 why is it so i can read about people in less developed countries are often happier than those in developed societies?
@@VinOptimaxxx It has not lost its meaning, rather we have turned away from it.
I question that religions makes people wiser than a secular path towards the same goal. I suspect that statistical studies that compares the two groups can be highly flawed. Also, what type of religious people (and secular people) were chosen for the studies?
If you asked this question of religions themselves, I believe the common underlying factor - the non-propositional function you speak of - is denial of the Self.
The root of the Meaning Crisis is that aethiestic, scientific thinking teaches that our free will is an illusion, and we are merely animals so therefore the only "meaning" in life is self-actualisation. Capitalism loves this social model as it keeps people enslaved. Put bluntly, this is a rhetoric of selfishness.
All major religions try to escape this selfishness or carnality. Submitting your life and your will to a greater Self (god) is where true meaning comes from.
I was an addict because I submitted to illicit substance. I’m religious now and I am still an addict but now I have meaning so I don’t need the substance
I like how Herber Spencer proves that it is less irrational to believe in Creator than in any other mode of Universe creation. Once you internalize that, you can come at peace with religions, because you understand what they are trying to do, and you can start overlooking the bullshit in them and keep the good parts.
Oh wow - I recently returned to attending church, mainly just to listen but in also trying to find meaning and a sense of community. How timely a video haha
Where can I find this functionality in writing outside of religion?
It simple: the system
Too superficial.
It's like a teenager's explanation.
What is "the system" - and what is the alternative to "the system"?
What are the forces that created, drive, and sustain it?
"The system" is the best we could do so far, given that we are just descendants of chimps.
Is like...come forth!
J. Krishnamurti said we must lead a religious life and it had nothing to do with the traditional religions. His teachings fit nicely with the three modes of knowing other than propositional. He would call that disorder. He said when intelligence awakens, thought takes its right place. Propositions don’t interfere. The trick is, no amount of propositions/thoughts will bring order to thought. The thinker is the thought is the past. The movement of the past into the present is the problem. This is the religion of the self we are all addicted to.
“You do not see the danger of your conditioning.”
-JK
Interesting...what brought you to Krishnamurti?
@@JohnVervaekeClips Your last proposition, which seems to come from a deep not knowing how you know, “a religion that’s not a religion.” Krishnamurti often spoke of the religious mind, which is a free mind, free from choosing between a set of propositions that make up the self (perhaps the propositional self??). We call this free will or freedom to choose, which is heavily conditioned. The religious mind is when propositions are negated. Then the religious mind can utilize propositions. Now we are consumed by them. Your 4 types of knowledge are fascinating. My mind extrapolated another type from my evident experience though it may fit into participatory, which is where most of my energy goes, along with perspectival. What about possibilities or almost prophecy-ish. I have a sense that what we miss out on in the moment due to focusing on propositional, the right brain sees. There is a kid of quantum computation that can start sending signs by changing the salience landscape. In this way, the “future” in the now is informed by what could have been had we been paying attention with all our ways of knowing. It could be a knowing of possibilities, a kind of future knowing, or a way to catch up to possible futures.
When you have no job, the meaning is to get a job. When you have no food on the table, the mening is to put food on the table. When you have a crying baby, the meaning is to sooth the baby. When your parents are ill and dying, your meaning is to take care of them. When you contemplate meaning, i think your life is not full enough. You need more problems to solve. It is a privilege to cnsider the meaning of life. Speaking frm someone who asks this question too much, I think most in history didn't hve this luxury.We should remember the big picture and meaningless of life, ultimately, while filling life with problems to solve...
So your take is to live a life full of problems?
Yea big fat NO to more problems
McGilchrist might say that possessing a religious framework provides one with a sense of 'belonging', with both the universe and other people. It is a blanket that keeps the 'aloneness' at bay.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Around 15min in when he talks about the temporal horizon flip it made me wonder if that was one of the issues Christianity was attempting to solve in the idea that everyone who dies will one day rise again. What kind of change does that bring about for people and is it really just a rejection of the here and now like people believe Nietzsche is saying?
Beautiful and interesting image you painted there with your words!
If you want to be happy you have to sacrifice your high expectations of life and be humble. Then you will find meaning and happiness.
Regarding the last bit about Nietzsche, it seems quite self-explanatory when you consider the mechanisms of faith that uphold the state of "knowing" itself. Again, back to that idea of knowing eventually dissolving into a state of not knowing. There's ultimately a necessary assertion that validates the premise that you can even know to begin with. You can observe it philosophically, but you can also observe it scientifically with every advancement to modern theories throughout history. There are times in which we're correct, and then there are times in which we are more correct. But if that's true, our correctness was only given our perspective. The ability to become "more" correct necessitates incorrectness, and it's this way all the way down. You can't know if you're finished, and you can't know if you're even right. On some fundamental level, even the most scientifically rigorous sense of truth is beholden to faith regarding your presuppositions. But I digress.
Nihilism in itself obviously threatens meaning. If nothing matters, if there's no reasoning, there's no possibility for emergent meaning. It's impossible to belong to something in which nothing belongs. That sense of belonging is a relationship that ultimately relies on assertions of meaning itself. For something to belong, it must have been meant to coexist. Which cannot be if nothing is meant to exist, period. The two are one. The perceived "intention behind the universe" cannot be divorced from the senses evoked from "experiencing it".
I certainly appreciate these conversations, as they often bring valuable insights. However, it is frustrating to listen to an exchange that dances all around the issue of performative experience vs perspective; and the idea that students do not know where to seek wisdom when faced with the loss of textual knowledge and religion. Buried in the discussion of performative experience, and community lies a very important institution that recent generations have spurned. That is the role of the MENTOR and the functionality of interpersonal relationships where performative experience can be shared, taught, and passed on. The sense of belonging can be reinforced by the mentor through acceptance and nurture. The value of experience can be tempered with textual k owledge and faith to form the complete bond of perspective through collective investment. All I am hearing is an opine for the loss of SELF...
It feels painful and meaningless
Meaning is a gum ball in a gum ball machine. Pick one and go.
I just made this up. I don’t even know if it makes sense, but it sounds cool.
"' Just as water cannot rise above its own levels, thoughts cannot think what is higher than thinking'' This was said by Alan Watts and to me helps remove the logical debate. Ask yourself, who are you when you are in dreamless sleep? The mind is quite, the body is quite and yet you still are. Thats the truth and everything else is non truth. Realize it for yourself.
Life does not seem meaningless in the least to me. All changed when i chose to believe.
That's the point...the meaning isn't objective and written in stone...it's kind of a blank slate and gets filled in based on your own particular beliefs, non-beliefs, experiences, etc.. It's existentialism.
To sum ip this long winded answer, there is no myth or story in culture telling us that we belong to something bigger than ourselves. As the lyrics of Radiohead’s song Creep, “What the hell am I doing here? I don’t belong here…”
When a religion loses those who have actual encounters with the numinous then it is religious but not spiritual.
Like thy hands re correct office to "OFFSPRINGS"!
People do not feel meaningless, what they do and think is meaningless because they don’t have the courage to discover what has not been spelled out to them, deemed as success, or defined by science.
Fascinating take, could you give an example?
Harmony of science and religion reminds me of the Baha’i Faith. What do you think about that?
As a child, we wanted to believe stuff. Why should we be purely sceptic when we are adults
I takes great effort to re-enter childhood as an adult.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things
Plus when your kid the whole world's a mystery.,. When you get older you figure out or you don't care
Matthew 18:3
3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Must be both. Like a child and adult. Difficult.
I believe that Nietzsche was commenting on the transition from natural law to the law of man.
If these guys struggle to come to clarity what chance have I?
I think on my first day in undergrad they told us no need to use big words like ameliorate all the time. 🤦♂️ bring in habermas or something. I don’t need to hear about “ecologies.”
All consciousness begins to question purpose or consciousness altogether. Notice that the animals on this planet aren’t doing this. How does a dog act? A cat? The human asks “am I being a human today, or what am I?” It’s unnecessary, the point is to be. Once you rid yourself of the bullshit, excess of what you’ve been told to believe about yourself, or what you’ve chosen to believe. You can decide. We are our actions, you can choose, just let go and get out of your way.