@@edenbercier7511 its the executives. Had they not interfered, we probably would have gotten one of the best modern films and the greatest love letter to the company
The movie is fine, but I think people would've liked it WAAAY better if the original idea was used. Basically, WE'VE BEEN ROBBED BY THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE DAMN THING!!
I've been asking the question why Wish didn't include a love story. When I looked at the concept art, Asha was plans to have a love plot with Star. However their reasoning as the why they cut it was because they want Asha to come into her own and not having Star doing all the heavy lifting. Which is weird because they could had Asha coming to her own while falling in love with Star. An example of this is Beauty and the Beast. Beast didn't do most of the heavy lifting, Belle did by showing him acceptance and kindness. Which helps the Beast to open himself up to her and learn how to care for others outside of himself. I feel Disney is subscribing into the idea that all romances are bad/one note or that it's outdated. But, falling in love isn't a bad thing. It helps our main characters to grow to become their best selves.
This is really funny because most old disney princess did the heavy lifting, besides a few exception (snowwhite and sleeping beauty being saved by the prince) every other pincess always did their own thing and still fell in love. Cinderella and tiana hard worker that defeat the villain but still fall in love, Mulan saved whole china, Ariel and rapunzel fought mostly together against their villain. So overal disney princesses always did their own thing with or without their lovers help and were never reduced to complete helplessness
Being in love with a man does not mean you are nothing with him. I’m tired of the narrative that you can’t be your own person in a relationship, and that girls don’t want love stories. He’s we do! Everyone wants love sometimes.
I'm actually writing a love story about an invisible man, but instead of making the girl character someone who does nothing (like Bella Swan, sorry Stephanie Meyers), I want to make the female character very proactive in trying her best to follow her dreams, which is to be a chemist. Being she's from a time period where women don't really get the jobs they want, the girl gets the opportunity of a life time when she runs into this invisible man trying to cure his invisibility. I don't know, it might sound stupid to some people, but I want something juicy.
Not everyone wants love(romantic love). But I don't think that Disney should stop making love stories. They should do both, do some stories where the protagonist doesn't want love, but still do some love stories.
Of course i love a princess who doesn't need a man, but i think Disney needs to go back to creating characters who don't need a romantic partner, but who have one because they want one, not because they need one, i miss that
@@starscreamthecruel8026I think it’s more along the lines of someone who has actualization outside of having a romantic partner, who is able to find meaning outside the traditional romantic bond, but still has one because they want to and their partner wants to.
I think the main issue with Disney nowadays is that they are afraid of showing ANY main characters being in love or loving something. Look, I’m a sucker for romance but I can be a fan of a movie with romance or with no romance at all. But having your main characters being always in the right and 100% independent is just boring to be honest. Like I understand Disney doesn’t want to fall into the “damsel in distress” category but someone loving someone actually makes them a stronger and more likable protagonist.
True. Romance is one of the tropes of Disney since Snow White. Mainly because Walt was a romantic himself. But there is nothing wrong with showing an aromantic protagonist. However, you are right. Disney needs to make their movies consistent, with some protagonists who fall in love or supporting characters falling in love, or aromantics who are writing their own stories. It's all in the balance
That is true. Especially with girls, there's an aversion to letting a girl get care or support from anyone even friends. It isn't wrong to stop putting romantic feelings on a pedestal, and more recent excuses for bot including romance have been "we want to explore other kinds of love" which is not bad in concept, but other than Moana and arguably Brave, their friends or family don't seem to help/serve as motivation in any substantial way. A focus on "independence" has made them appear isolated, and left their friend and family bonds poorly fleshed out. Kids don't care about romance, anyhow. Kids shows aside, though, it's disappointing that we don't have more dramas, superhero films, etcetera with a romantic subplot substituted with something more important , difficult, and real than the 146th "will they won't they" routine. Because it could be great, they just don't do anything with it.
Platonic love is one of the strongest types of love, while romantic love is one of the weakest types of love. When a guy and a girl are best friends, they won't date or be in a romantic relationship with each other since they know it wouldn't work since they are too close. That proves that romantic love is inferior to platonic love. The best feeling for many girls is being able to have platonic guy friends that are like brothers to them. Most girls prefer having platonic guy friends over a boyfriend/husband. Many girls would choose their platonic male best friend over their boyfriend/husband and give more importance to them. Most girls seem to be more comfortable being around their platonic male best friends than they are being around their boyfriends/husbands. People are closer to their platonic best friends than they are to their romantic partner. People usually love their platonic best friend more than their romantic partner. Platonic love is actually real, while romantic love is fake. Romantic relationships are actually a downgrade compared to platonic relationships.
That’s true, there is a small love element in Encanto but my argument is that Disney hasn’t been giving love stories to their protagonists (Mirabel, Asha, Raya, etc.)
oh yeah, I liked although the protagonist did not have a love story, it does not mean that other characters there do not have one; the love story was that of her grandmother and Pedro Madrigal
I think a problem Disney has when writing their protagonists is that none of them are really flawed, they're always in the right and they're not the ones who go through the character arc of growth and changing as a person. And I think this is a bad moral to put in movies particularly aimed at children because real people have many flaws that they need to grow from, but by preaching everyone is perfect as they are promotes stagnation in the development of people, hense why we see so many adults who have the mentality of children.
I mean no disrespect when I ask this, but weren't many of the Disney princess's also like this? I mean, yes, they went on a journey that was a result of who they were, but there was ultimately very little change from princesses like Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, or Jasmine. I honestly can't think of any big lesson they learned or if they had character growth.
@@mattneese8571 ehhh, you're kinda right and wrong here. Let me put an example: Hercules did have character grow in his movie, he went from wanting to go to Olympus with his birth parents to wanting to stay on heart with the love of his life and he learned what being a true hero means. Hercules main problem was that he didn't feel like he belonged with the other mortals, because of the rejection of his towns people, he wanted to belong somewhere and be apreciated, he learned that he didn't need to go to Olympus to get that, because he meet Meg and Phill. Hercules personality (that you could argue, Is pretty similar to characters like Asha, in the sense that he is "adorkable" somethimes) didn't change a lot thought the movie, but he did grow and learned things. Same with characters like Li Shang, The beast and Aladdin.
And that's why I fucking love spiderverse Gwen. She is totally in the wrong but is she tho? Her imperfections are out of love for the people around her and her evolution throughout the span of 2 hours is just beautiful to watch. We don't get that many layers from multifaceted characters who you can just feel the work and dedication the writers put into anymore, let alone who is also actually a strong female character
The fact that Elemental bounced back and received 484 million in the box office, shows they obviously loved the romance between Ember and Wade. So love stories could make a comeback!
True, even tho elemental was pretty cliche, it was still more entertaining than what Disney's been putting out. It was honestly really adorable and wholesome, and I want to see more of that in disney.
I don't think the romantic type of love is special, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real. I mean about more than half of romantic couples either break up with each other or divorce each other. I think humans should just ditch concepts like dating, marriage, and pair bonding. I feel like this world would be a much better place without romance than it is with it. In my opinion, romantic love should not be on the highest pedestal. In my opinion, parents and siblings' family love is the strongest. Family knows who you are. Romance is fake for lots of people, put on a false persona and romance on most parts gets ugly real fast. For the reality of romance is no Disney love story. Parents and siblings' family love is one of the strongest types of love there is. If romantic love is actually real, it would be one of the weakest types of love there is.
Mulan wasn’t exactly a love story until the last few minutes of the movie which they didn’t exactly “fall in love” rather the male lead was invited to dinner and they’re love story was actually the second movie
I’m sorry… but I’m so tired of people calling princesses like Snow White and Aurora “weak damsels” or “harmful stereotypes”. There’s a reason their stories have stood the test of time. Both women and men have loved the idea of true love conquering the harshest of obstacles for centuries. It’s a touching sentiment, and one that resonates with a massive audience, because at the end of the day, we all want to find our true love. Yes both princesses were put under a sleeping curse for the last parts of their films, but that doesn’t automatically make them weak. It was never done with the intention to demean women, it was done to create stakes and dramatic grip for the audience who’ve grown attached to them by the time the curse takes place. So many people make the ridiculous claim that the movies were always male oriented, as it was the men who would save the Princess by the end of the film.. but I want you to ask yourself something… from these movies, who’s the more prominent and remembered character? Who’s the one on the posters? Who are the ones the films are named after?? Not Prince Florian (yes that’s his name, it was never even addressed in Snow White as he was practically a background character), and it’s definitely not Prince Phillip. Looking back, the male characters didn’t exactly do much of the heavy lifting like so many activists claim today. In Snow White, it was the animals who had to retrieve the dwarves, and even then it was the Evil Queen who did herself in by trying to drop a heavy boulder on them while standing on a cliff side during a thunder storm. Even in Sleeping Beauty, it was the three good fairies (who are all women) who saved Phillip (the man) from Maleficent. They gave him his sword and shield, they guided his passage out of her castle, and it was their spell that ultimately killed the dragon. Yes the men served their purpose and kissed the girl, and we got our happy ending, but people are purposefully forgetting everything around that fact, and are using it to bash these movies that don’t deserve it. The classic princesses will forever be timeless, and beloved by the world. Their love stories will always resonate with millions of fans across the world. It’s just how it is. No amount of modern girl-boss films/arguments will ever change that.
I’m not the biggest fan of Snow White and lord knows I’ll never like Aurora The Wooden Princess but they are products of their time period. So I can’t be too bad on them. Cinderella that character I will always defend though. Her and Ariel.
@@Rebelheart1985 I have to say that unlike the later princesses, it is like Snow White doesn't feel like a real human being to me. It is hard to explain what I mean, except that I feel that she's like a parody of what ignorant people think that all Disney princesses are like. However, she is good at improving the life of the dwarfs and not the complete waste of space that her worst detractors claim that she is. Sure, she has to be saved from a sleeping spell by a kiss from Florian who doesn't even appear in more than two scenes in the entire movie. But really, it is an old fairytale and shouldn't be overanalyzed like it is by many cynics today... Aurora is better than Snow White since she feels like an actual human being, but the poor girl is hardly given anything to do in her own story. It is true though like the OP said that many people seem to miss that Philip would have failed badly if three women hadn't helped him. Cinderella was actually a strong young woman when you consider her circumstances as an abused orphan in the 19th century. Ariel happened to be the first Disney princess to save the prince, and she could save Eric on her own and without any help from others like Philip had. What I think is that the people who complain at these movies don't really get the stories to begin with...
@@vixxexo6855 first of all, Walt Disney said himself his movies and products weren’t meant strictly for kids. They were for people of all ages, because he said (and I quote:) “the adults have the money”. Adults were always a target demographic from the creator of the company/brand himself. And tf you mean it was not consensual? She obviously had feelings for the Prince, especially after they danced and spent time together in the forest. That’s the whole point of that dance scene, it’s meant to show that they’ve fallen for each other, and they don’t want to be with who they’re betrothed to… the Prince telling his father he fell for a “peasant girl” he met, and Aurora breaking down when she was told she was betrothed to some Prince she “didn’t” even know. It’s supposed to be ironic because they just so happen to be in love with the ones they’re already betrothed to, and that’s why they’ve already met before. Once upon a dream. It also reaffirms that their love is true, and not born out of greed or tradition, because they fell in love before they even knew who each other were.
I don't think romantic relationships are a good thing and I think this world would be a much better place without them. Most fathers and brothers hope that their daughter/sister never finds a partner and remain single for her whole life due to the dangers and risks of romantic relationships. It seems nearly all fathers and brothers don't ever want their daughter/sister to have a boyfriend/husband. The overprotective father/brother thing is proof that romantic relationships are a bad thing, and that this world would be a better place without them. Most fathers and brothers seem to get upset whenever their daughter/sister dates someone, and that proves that romantic relationships are a bad thing. Being single is far safer than being in a romantic relationship. People (especially women) should avoid romantic relationships and be single.
The thing that really gets me is how they handled Kristoff’s subplot in Frozen II where he tries to propose to Anna but it (“hilariously”) falls flat on his face. He even has a whole freaking song about it. The biggest issue I had is that his attempts to propose show just how immature and ignorant he is. The first three times he tries to propose, Anna is clearly upset/worried about something (usually Elsa). Any sane person would see their loved one struggling and think “Okay, now is not a good time. I’ll get on it later. Right now, I need to help him/her out.” Honestly, they could’ve cut Kristoff’s proposal attempts out entirely and it would’ve had no bearing on the plot. If anything, it would’ve streamlined it further and shown him as a man who puts his girlfriend’s needs before himself.
I think one of the biggest issues Disney has right now is this pattern of following social trends rather than try to make something good and original that their audience would love to see.
I like a good romance. Don't force it in where it doesn't belong, but also, don't shy away from it if that's the direction the creative team wants to go.
I don't think romantic relationships are a good thing and I think this world would be a much better place without them. Most parents hope that their daughter never finds a partner and remain single for her whole life due to the dangers and risks of romantic relationships. It seems nearly all mothers and fathers don't ever want their daughter to have a boyfriend/husband. The overprotective parent thing is proof that romantic relationships are a bad thing, and that this world would be a better place without them. Most parents seem to get upset whenever their daughter dates someone, and that proves that romantic relationships are a bad thing. Being single is far safer than being in a romantic relationship. People (especially women) should avoid romantic relationships and be single.
Meanwhile spiderverse Gwen stacy laughs in the face of disney's incompetence in writing a character who so perfectly balances out getting strong development and romance
I feel like movies like Moana seemed very natural to be without an RO, not every story needs a love story. That being said, love stories arent a poison. I do miss them, and some stories absolutely need them
I don't think romantic love is real or special, and I think romantic relationships are a bad thing. I think humans should just stop being in romantic relationships. I feel like this world would be a much better place without romance than it is with it. Romance seems like an ugly thing. Many fathers won't allow their daughters to date when they are in high school or still living with them. It does seem that nearly all fathers are hoping that their daughters never date or get married and remain single for their whole life due to the dangers and risks of romantic relationships. The overprotective father thing is proof that romantic relationships are a bad thing, and that this world would be a much better place without them. If someday that the human race ditches the concept of romance and romantic relationships, and got rid of stuff like dating and marriage, fathers would be happy about it since they wouldn't ever have to worry about their daughters ever dating if that ever happened. People (especially women) should avoid being in a romantic relationship and be single for life since romantic relationships are dangerous.
Great commentary! I think The Princess and the Frog is also a good example of a strong female protagonist with a love story done right. Both Tiana and Naveen have character arcs like Rapunzel and Eugene. The message of that movie, that what you want is not the same as what you need, is something I don't think modern Disney would do.
They also teach each other something as they get to know each other. Tiana was very much all about work; she was running herself ragged trying to scrape enough money to buy her own restaurant, to the point where she didn't have much else in her life. Naveen was the opposite, doing so much partying that his family was cutting him off. But as they got to know each other, Naveen became willing to do things, while Tiana learnt that taking a moment to relax and enjoy herself was just as important. So by the end of the film, they work together on the restaurant, with Tiana managing it and Naveen making it lively.
In my opinion, (whilst I do love a good romance, and am not a fan of the “girl bossing 100% all the time”) I think Disney’s protagonists are missing not a love interest specifically but someone close to share their innermost wants, dreams, desires, emotions, etc, that side of them that they really can’t share with any other character. Wether that be a best friend, sibling, or love interest they need someone they can casually be vulnerable with
Because they got a lot of shit for it. For reasons, people assume that a female character wanting romantic love diminishes her or makes her less independent. SMDH. 🙄🙄
Romantic relationships are not a beautiful thing. Romance causes a lot of problems in this world. Life is a lot better without romance than it is with it. Romantic love is not special at all, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real.
I don't know why women would still want to be in a romantic relationship when studies prove single women are the happiest demographic. Women are the happiest when single and focused on themselves. Multiple studies have shown that women live happier and healthier lives being single then being married.
Statistically speaking, women are happiest when single. Also, women can have friends and biological family that they share a life with. We as humans need the presence of other humans in our lives yes. But we can live alone. We don’t need romantic relationships to survive. We do need love and support, but it can be from friends and family. It does not need to be from a romantic partner.
I wish "Frozen" would´ve a) followed more the original fairytale and b) followed the original ideas the team had. Imagine a villain Elsa, imagine Anna who has to save her brother (like in the orignal fairytale the protagonist Gerda had to save her best friend Kai from the Snow Queen). Imagine Hans not being a villain. Like the movie tried so hard with Hans not being the love interest bc "you can´t just marry a man you just met" but at the same time push the "love at first (or second) sight" with Kristoff. It would´ve been so much better if Hans kissed Anna and didn´t break the curse bc hey just met, but that he still cares for her. It would´ve shown "well you might not immediately be in love since you just met, but after a few months of spending time together it COULD bloom into sth romantic"
You're right that protagonists can have their own amazing character arcs, whether they have a love interest or not. But I feel like when it came to "Wish," Disney got lazy. I hear that it was supposed to be in 2D, and we could have gotten our first love story since Anna and Kristoff, and we could have especially seen DISNEY'S FIRST EVER VILLAIN COUPLE. It would have been amazing, but no, Disney took the easy way out because doing those three things for their 100th anniversary film would take a lot of effort, and why put effort into a Disney movie with too many Easter eggs, even though it takes place years before the events of the classic Disney movies? It even makes me sad and pisses me off how this was actually easy to see why because Bob Iger said, "Entertain the kids first, don't put in any morals." I can't stand that because in my opinion, morals are what make a story mean something. Do you really want to see great female protagonists in animated movies? Think about Studio Ghibli. "Princess Mononoke" was mostly about San *(the wolf princess)* hating humans because of the destruction that was done in her forest, but after meeting Ashitaka, she begins to warm up to him *(even though it takes a while for her to do so),* and what makes their love story so impactful is that Ashitaka teaches San how there's no good or bad side in a conflict, but hatred causes a war to happen, and their love story comes second. Plus, the romance doesn't happen immediately. San literally says, "I like you, but I still can't forgive the humans for what they've done." Another thing that I love so much about Studio Ghibli's female protagonists is that their goals and their character arcs come first *(Their character arcs are done so beautifully),* but there are moments where they can feel super vulnerable and emotional, but luckily, they don't have saviors. They only have friends and supporters to help guide them on their journey *(and most of their supporters are Ghibli's male characters),* and it's better to ask for help so you can work harder to accomplish something. The strongest people are the most vulnerable people and I'm so glad that Studio Ghibli understands this. Plus, Modern Disney's laziness somehow makes me root for other studios like Sony Pictures Animation even more. Remember when Sony Animation was a joke of an animation studio that only made childish animated movies just for the sake of making money? Well, I feel like after the flop that was "The Emoji Movie," Sony was like, "Oh no, we hecked up." So they released "Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse" a year later, and it was so critically acclaimed that it became an animation classic and won an Oscar for Best Animated Feature. I feel like Sony Animation realized that they needed to make better animated movies by telling better stories, because after the success of "Into the Spider-Verse," they made so many underrated masterpieces that don't get any love and appreciation whatsoever, even if they deserve it. "The Mitchells VS The Machines" is one of the greatest comedies I've ever watched, "Wish Dragon" was still a good movie, had an intense third act, and had different character arcs, even if the movie itself felt too much like a modern version of "Aladdin," and I think "Vivo" was Sony's first ever animated musical because now that the studio was trying to be better, they wanted to try something new, and they were probably super excited when they found out that Lin-Manuel Miranda was writing the songs, because the studio probably watched his work for "Hamilton" and "Moana." Also, do you think that "Across the Spider-Verse" lived up to the hype of the first Spider-Verse movie? Of course it did, because that takes EFFORT. And Sony Animation went ahead and made their animators and writers put in so much of their effort and hard work to make the second Spider-Verse movie inhumanely spectacular. I'm still pretty mad at them for overworking their animators too much *(and caused more than 100 animators to quit),* but unlike Modern Disney, at least Sony admitted why they overworked their animators, admitted their mistakes, and they thanked their animators for making the sequel super compelling, so I feel more proud than mad, because I believe that anyone can change as long as they're willing to change, and Sony Animation did exactly that. The main reason why I'm rooting for Sony Animation even more is because they learned something after the success of "Into the Spider-Verse." They began to make more masterpieces because they tried to put in so much of their effort to make them amazing, and they let their talented workers go so hard. Heck, THEY LITERALLY HIRED A 14-YEAR-OLD KID TO ANIMATE THE LEGO DIMENSION IN THE SECOND SPIDER-VERSE MOVIE BECAUSE THEY WERE STUNNED BY HIS LEGO RECREATION OF ONE OF THE TRAILERS. That's a huge deal. And now, Sony is delaying "Beyond the Spider-Verse" because I think they said themselves that they're trying to put in so much effort to make the third movie the most compelling finale for Miles Morales' story, but they're trying to let their animators recover first. And now, I'm really optimistic about the third movie because much like the second Spider-Verse movie, the third movie is being delayed because Sony wants to put in more effort in it to make it more compelling, even though Sony said that they're heartbroken for making the fans wait longer, but they also said it was for the best, so even though I feel bummed that I have to wait longer, I feel more optimistic than bummed because now Sony is actually TRYING. So now, I'm thinking, '"Beyond the Spider-Verse" is going to be the greatest movie ever made." Plus, I may not like "The Emoji Movie" at all, but one thing I can respect it for is that it was the movie that made Sony Animation redeem themselves as a studio. Because now, Sony went from a joke of an animation studio to a studio that's about to take Disney's crown for Best Animation Studio (but the crown truly goes to Ghibli). Disney should do what Studio Ghibli and Sony Animation did by making more compelling character arcs *(whether the characters are in love or not),* and learning from their mistakes to make better animated movies.
Good points another reason why love stories are helpful is due to the fan base that grows from it wish could have had that but sadly this is what happens when you don’t have imagination
@@villanlover58"Wish" only has a fandom because everyone is sad about what the movie could have been, so now they're rewriting the movie in their own ways.
Once I get a job at Disney as a 2-d artist, I'll bring back the era of classic Disney movies. I'll create brilliant animated masterpieces that follow Studio Ghibli's example. I love romantic movies, and I want to bring romance back to Disney. That's my goal.✊🏻
I don't mind them doing non- romantic stories. Pinocchio, Alice in wonderland, Lilo and stitch, Moana, Wreck it Ralph, and Enchanto show there can be great stories with no romance. What's frustrating about the most recent film, Wish, is that they have one song was CLEARLY a love song. Especially when it's revealed that Star has a human form. So it's pretty bad to make and market a love song. In a film that has NO romance in it.
I'm someone who isn't super interested in romance in stories, but that doesn't mean I hate it or complain about it. Hpwever there are some romance that aren't done well that makes some people hate it. But if a romance is genuinely well-written, then it can catch the attention of audience and make them love it. I think the problem, for me, with romance nowadays is how unequal the footing is for the characters. Take Anna and Kristoff, in Frozen 2, Kristoff wasn't as involved and had no real rold other than being the love interest who wants to marry Anna. I was sad and disappointed that they put him down like that and wished he had a better role other than being JUST the love interest. Actually, that's another problem. Making one of them just the love ingerest, nothing else. Personally, I hate it when love stories have one of them be ONLY the love interest and no other character trait. I don't know if people feel the same way, but I hate that kind of writing. If there is romance, I want BOTH of them to contribute and have a HEALTHY relationship inside and outside their own.
The whole concept that a woman doesn't need a man is ridiculous and insulting in general. Because it presumes that every woman who wants to be with a man has somehow lost a certain amount of autonomy. The truth is that men and women need each other. We have always needed each other, and that's a good thing. It brings us together.
We really don’t need each other though, especially not in this day and age. Society has shunned men, it’s about time for men to back out of society and the jobs that make it function and let women take control of it.
Well, yes and no. You xan need somebody in a codeoendent, dehumanizing way. Or you can need them in an interdependent way, where its less than a need and more of a want. We need other guman being in life. But how they come and go? Its a mystery.
Well not everyone needs to be in a straight relationship if that's what's being implied here, but being in one doesn't automatically lessen a person's autonomy that's true. A woman doesn't need a man to live a fulfilling life but if she has a man she wants to spend her life with that's great
Its even more ridiculous when they say that a man does not need a woman. Everyone needs love. I mean, sure, romance does not need to be a solution to every problem, but it is not something to ignore. In real life, romance happens almost every day
We need to fight back against Disney's (and Hollywood's) toxic narrative that feminism through the lens of capitalism is objective truth and morally good. Self sufficiency isn't a virtue when society/economy is functioning in a healthy way, which it currently isn't.
Saying this as a hopeless romantic I agree not every story needs romance and sometimes romance is sticked where it doesn’t belong but to say romance in general diminishes a story is just untrue. It can create great characters work and development if done well. Beauty and the Beast and Tangled are examples from Disney where it’s done well. And Wish missed a lot of potential cutting the Starboy love interest.
Romantic relationships are not a beautiful thing. Romance causes a lot of problems in this world. Life is a lot better without romance than it is with it. Romantic love is not special at all, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real. I don't know why women would still want to be in a romantic relationship when studies prove single women are the happiest demographic. Women are the happiest when single and focused on themselves. Multiple studies have shown that women live happier and healthier lives being single then being married. Statistically speaking, women are happiest when single. Also, women can have friends and biological family that they share a life with. We as humans need the presence of other humans in our lives yes. But we can live alone. We don’t need romantic relationships to survive. We do need love and support, but it can be from friends and family. It does not need to be from a romantic partner.
Romantic relationships are not a beautiful thing. Romance causes a lot of problems in this world. Life is a lot better without romance than it is with it. Romantic love is not special at all, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real.
I don't know why women would still want to be in a romantic relationship when studies prove single women are the happiest demographic. Women are the happiest when single and focused on themselves. Multiple studies have shown that women live happier and healthier lives being single then being married.
Statistically speaking, women are happiest when single. Also, women can have friends and biological family that they share a life with. We as humans need the presence of other humans in our lives yes. But we can live alone. We don’t need romantic relationships to survive. We do need love and support, but it can be from friends and family. It does not need to be from a romantic partner.
If the folks Disney watched even one movie by Hayao Miyazaki, they would know that writing strong independent women in romantic relationships is possible! (I say this because they literally had the license for most of his movies for several years. Did no one even watch them??)
That’s one of the reasons I liked Elemental so much - Disney and other animation studios have shied away from romance so much that Pixar finally said “fine, WE’LL do it”
One of the most memorable and seriously quirky, but adorable Disney couple I remember so well, is Captain Amelia and Doctor Doppler from Treasure Planet. It’s such a rare and unique pairing for me to see back in the day. Two aliens of different species. Amelia is obviously intelligent, cunning, effective. But with a strict and good moral compass. While Doppler is also smart and intelligent, but he comes off as a bumbling dork in a good way. And if you watch the movie as it goes on, you can actual see physical evidence of Amelia falling a bit in love every time Doppler does something. It seemed so unlikely that these two would end up together, but they did. And it worked so well! One of the reasons why I also love Milo and Kida. While romance for these couples are of course exaggerated for the sake of fiction. They both feel so mature about it, while balancing out with humour. It didn’t feel like the ‘cutesey dorky comedic’ trope I’ve seen all the time with Disney couples these days. They feel a bit more real and fleshed out.
I'm sure they could get more audiences making a romantic movie. I say this cause the only reason I watched elemental was because of the romance. Seeing not only two characters come together really engaging, but seeing them develop together is so heartwarming. I miss Disney couples.
tbh that's the whole reason why i never ended up enjoying stuff like that. i hate romance and never even felt it myself. i end up having nothing to relate to and a very little amount of no romance books or movies that'll actually interest me and tell a good story... but that's just my opinion.
Princess and the Frog had one of the best romantic love stories, and that was released in 2009. To see how far Disney has fallen since, is just crazy and really sad.
say what you will about sleeping beauty but depicting Snow White as just a damsel in distress is debatable. Considerings he survives assassination attempts and wonder in the woods on her own. the prince barely had any screen time.
Yeah, most of the older movies were actually good for young girls yet so many people ignore the beginnings of those movies and say they are harmful. A lot of them have to do with getting out of bad home lives which is hard to do on your own anyway and usually someone from the outside is what makes a person consider they deserve better than what they currently have. A lot of people who complain about the older movies also seem like they either forgot the plot or never saw the whole movie they're talking about and are just jumping on a trend.
its simple. Authentic love is a natural part of human existence when its executed right...and when both partners are written equally with a desire to love each other.
I don't think the romantic type of love is special, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real. More than half of romantic couples either break up with each other or divorce each other. I think humans should just ditch concepts like dating, marriage, and pair bonding. I feel like this world would be a much better place without romance than it is with it. In my opinion, romantic love should not be on the highest pedestal. In my opinion, parents and siblings' family love is the strongest. Family knows who you are. Romance is fake for lots of people, put on a false persona and romance on most parts gets ugly real fast. For the reality of romance is no Disney love story. Parents and siblings' family love is one of the strongest types of love there is. If romantic love is actually real, it would be one of the weakest types of love there is. Romantic relationships are overrated and are just a waste of time. People should avoid being a romantic relationship.
if disney is so afraid of love story because they think people will see it as damsel in distress type then they should take a page out of dreamworks. Their love storie are not center pieces but just add up to relationships and charachters, the protagonist still does their thing but are supported by their love interest. Megamind, shrek, puss in boots, madagascar etc. people still love romance stories if you write them good and wish could have been such a good movie
Meanwhile Pixar made a movie focused on romance - Elemental - for the first time (that is not just a B plot, like in cars, for example) and it was a huge success. It did not make them feel weak and it was important for the plot that they fell in love. It doesn't make sense for Disney to throw those plots in the garbage as if romance was bad. And whilst it would be horrible if Encanto had a romantic plot line for Mirabel (because it doesn't make sense and would add nothing to the story), there are movies like wish that you can clearly see could be so much better and would make sense with a love interest.
I found it so unfair how people think Love = weakness, EVERYBODY knows that loving the right person makes you the strongest and most independent, I'm sick of the narrative that men and women are an "obstacle" to eachother, even if we were to get queer relationships, love should ALWAYS be glorified and celebrated, love is beautiful ❤
Tiana and Naveen are one of my favorite couples in all of media, it's because they're both flawed characters who teach each other in the process of falling in love, and ultimately become fuller, better people for it. Tiana is a workaholic, has isolated herself from most of her friends, and thinks that it's all meaningless unless she gets the restaurant her father always wanted. Naveen is a spoiled, hedonistic, lazy man who only wants to marry so he can have enough money to maintain his very self centered lifestyle. Tiana teaches Naveen the importance of diligence and self reliance. He learns that all of the frivolity and hedonism is meaningless next to commitment, love, and family. Naveen teaches Tiana to relax and enjoy life, and that your dream doesn't always come true the exact way you expected. She learns what's the most important of all, love. I think we as a society have a slightly warped view of what love IS. It's not just this fluffy feeling in your chest or being physically attracted to someone. Love is a choice you make. Every day you choose to love someone and put their needs above your own. It's compromise. It's caring for the other person as if you are one body. It's self sacrifice. It's commitment. It's humility. It's not always going to come naturally, that's why you CHOOSE it. You choose it because it is right, and it actively makes you a BETTER person by doing the right, yet more difficult thing. But when every character is perfect from the beginning, then there's no room to grow. Moana's biggest character flaw is that she can't be herself because of her responsibilities. Elsa's biggest hurdle is that she's too awesome and the world can't handle it. Asha isn't ever portrayed to be in the wrong in her movie. This doesn't NECESSARILY make a character bad, (I adore Moana, though the other two I find horribly boring) But their character flaws/challenges don't require them to become better people, they rely on changing the world to fit THEM. (This is also a thing in the earliest Disney movies, Aurora, Cinderella and Snow White are very simple characters that don't have flaws, but notice they're actually not really the driving forces of the plot, it's mostly the dwarves, mice, and fairies that make things happen). While older Disney movies do kind of have the trend of perfect female protagonists who don't really have character flaws, they are less Ariel is overly naïve and shortsighted (this character flaw isn't actually addressed very much in the movie because she can't speak). Mulan jumps in way over her head joining the army, and has to use her mind/hard work to stay on pace with her fellow soldiers. Rapunzel is meek and Naïve, but learns to both trust people, and stand up for herself. Anna has straight up abandonment issues and separation anxiety. Belle is very stubborn and closed off to the beast (understandably) and has to humble herself a bit, showing him gratitude for saving her from the wolves and making the first step in making amends. Personally, I want to see more stories that involve couples that are already together. Seeing people fall in love is nice and all, but I want to see what it's like AFTER the fun, celebratory parts are over. What goes into making a relationship work? How do they treat each other when the butterflies are gone and maybe things get a little messy? That kind of love is less exciting, but it's the most beautiful of all because it lasts, and is built on something stronger than our wishy washy emotions.
Great post. I agree with pretty much everything. Although I would add that Elsa could've been a better character if the Frozen movies had ever bothered to address her flaws (like her selfish dereliction of duty) and crippling anxiety instead of hand-waving them away. Her problems literally get "resolved" in a matter of seconds and she repeats the same mistakes (i.e. pushing people away) in the sequel without any repercussions. She didn't learn anything. Those two movies in general are the definition of wasted potential; they have a lot of weak writing, especially where it pertains to the silly and unnecessary Hans twist. I also found it irksome how Anna is constantly being validated without really having to work for anything and the "romance" between her and Kristoff is one of the weakest I've seen. These characters could be very interesting in the hands of a competent writer. I also really like your point about Belle, since she's my favorite of the princesses and I've previously struggled to articulate why, especially when people seem to enjoy badmouthing her-sometimes even for opposite reasons. Belle is very kind and compassionate, but that doesn't mean she's some flawless paragon. Likewise, she's kind of sassy behind closed doors, but that doesn't mean she's awful or conceited. She still feels like she could be a real person to me. Edited for missing letter.
@@AnimaVox_ I completely agree!! I REALLY wish Elsa was a stronger character. It's kind of insane how people made a point of saying "She's Disney's first QUEEN, not a princess!" As if that has literally any bearing on her character whatsoever. Does she ever once talk about what it means to be a ruler? About the responsibility she has to her people? It's absolutely true that Elsa did not ask for her powers, and she suffered greatly in her childhood for them. But, this does NOT excuse the fact that she abandons an entire nation and almost kills everyone in the process. She doesn't even try to fix any of the problems she causes but it all just kind of works out so there are ZERO repercussions. Then, in Frozen 2, she is willing to up and abandon her family, friends, and an entire kingdom that's RELYING on her because she wants to go on an adventure? It'd be one thing if the story commented on this and portrayed it as a bad thing, or something she need to overcome/learn from, but it doesn't. Elsa is technically a queen so she can have the empowered girlboss box checked off, but she acts like a princess in every other way and the story rewards her for it. She's such a nothing character, the only growth she goes through is from being quiet and scared of her power to being confident. She doesn't grow up and that's because the nature of the story dictates that all of her problems stem from other people, not personal flaws she herself has to overcome or wrestle with. I absolutely LOVE Belle. She is one of those characters who at first glance comes off as another perfect character with no flaws but she does have a few that make her story more interesting. She is an intelligent woman with an active imagination and is the black sheep of her village, she's kind, beautiful, etc. BUT, she is stubborn with a bit of a hotheaded streak in her (and I always got the feeling she may have looked down on some of the townspeople for being less smart than she is). She is just as guilty of judging the beast by his appearance as HE was in the opening of the movie! (again, it's understandable why she would feel that way but just cause something is understandable doesn't mean it's not a character flaw). And she has to make the first step when it comes to their love story by being humble and thanking Beast for saving her when they'd just been fighting, and by the end of the movie she sees him for who he is, not how he looks on the outside. The difference in the quality of these heroines is absolutely massive. Elsa really desperately needs any time to focus on her personal flaws that aren't "she's too awesome and people just aren't ready for that yet". Frozen 2 is ALL about her but by the end of the movie I feel like we've learned absolutely nothing and she's just as bland-mary-sue-ish as she always has been. Really disappointing.
@@Bethany38326 Anna has a similar problem in that the films often don't treat her flaws like flaws. She consistently and impulsively rushes into danger and we're just supposed to accept that it's heroic instead of reckless and irresponsible. It's like they're afraid of not affirming their heroines' faults out of some misguided fear of being seen as sexist. 🙄 Writing Elsa should've been a slam-dunk-I mean, it's so _obvious_ what the natural progression of her arc should be! Same goes for Anna and Hans-who should've never been shoe-horned as the villain because the way they tried to force him into that role was super contrived and made no sense. Heck, same goes for Kristoff too, since he's barely even a character. It's just so... boring. I also hate how the King and Queen's bad parenting is never called out and how they're portrayed as heroes in the sequel. Like, they played a _major_ role in why their daughter was so traumatized because of how poorly they handled the incident, teaching her to repress her emotions. Why wasn't this the primary focus of the movie, again? It's much more interesting to explore than that whole 'love is a superpower!' nonsense they did. Would've at least made for something more unique. 🤷 I look at the Disney characters of old, and sure, some of them may seem more simple, but what matters is that they're written well. Simplicity is fine so long as the story is well told. That's what fairytales are. There's no use injecting half-measured complexity, especially if you're not going to give any sensible and satisfying resolution. Beauty and the Beast pulled off writing complex characters in a way that was both subtle and believable: Gaston starts off as a conceited, yet admittedly charismatic man, whose self-aggrandizement quickly morphs into something far more sinister and controlling because his ego won't allow him to take a loss with grace-unlike Belle, who learns that pride gets her no where. Beast's arc is the opposite of Gaston's: he learns to let go of his desire to control others and relinquishes the haughtiness that landed him in the curse to begin with. That's what makes Beast and Belle virtuous. I swear, that movie is still the gold standard for me regarding Disney princess stories. While writing quality has taken a sharp nosedive in recent time, I'd argue that the seeds for all this bad storytelling were planted years ago with movies like Frozen. Chris Buck has one previous success under his belt with Surf's Up, but if I recall correctly, most of Jennifer Lee's projects have been flops riddled with terrible writing-and what's worse is that she's now part of the leadership at WDAS! 🤦 I can't think of a more blatant example of failing upward. It doesn't help that people keep rewarding media like Frozen and Wreck-It-Ralph 2 with their money. Hopefully, that's changing, if Wish is anything to go by. I hate to sound like some old grump, but they _really_ don't make them like they used to. And that's not the nostalgia talking, I'm being purely analytical here.
Disney's problem is they're chasing temporary popularity instead of trying for something timeless. And what frustrates me is they can still get it right (Encanto proved that much), but it's feeling more like one or two people desperately trying to keep the others in check.
It's like they think you can't want to be in a happy relationship AND want other things at the same time. Who said we had to sacrifice love to achieve the things we want? Tangled, Princess and the frog and the original Frozen show that you don't need to abandon things to find love. It's sad we haven't had a movie like that for a LONG time.
I don't think romantic love is real or special, and I think romantic relationships are a bad thing. More than half of romantic relationships end in a breakup/divorce. I think humans should just ditch concepts like dating, marriage, and pair bonding. I feel like this world would be a much better place without romance than it is with it. Romance seems like an ugly thing. It does seem that nearly all fathers and brothers are hoping that their daughters and sisters never date or get married and remain single for their whole life. Romantic relationships seem like a bad thing since there is a lot of dangers when it comes to them. The overprotective father/brother thing is proof that romantic relationships are a bad thing, and this world would be a much better place without them. If someday that the human race ditches the concept of romance and romantic relationships, and got rid of stuff like dating and marriage, fathers and brothers would be happy about it since they wouldn't ever have to worry about their daughters and sisters ever dating if that ever happened.
@searain1573 I think with an attitude like that you need some serious therapy. By your own logic, friendships are bad, parental relationships are bad, all kind of relationships are bad: because they come to an end. Because they can end in resentment. But these endings are what build character. Yes, even romantic relationships. By your own logic, humans should live in complete isolation, but if you are choosing to bias your logic only toward romantic relationships, youre cnot being as logical as you think you are and instead are just subconsciously expressing your own resentment and insecurities. The modern romantic love scene is terrible, I agree. But when we ask why, the root cause isn't because romance is a bad thing. It's because of many significant factors in our world that we struggle to change. But yes... I recommend getting therapy
@@TryinBin8889 There are a lot more risks and dangers to romantic relationships than they are to platonic relationships. Why do you think most fathers and brothers don't act the same way towards their daughter's or sister's platonic male friends as they do towards a potential boyfriend? It's because they know there's a much higher chance someone could potentially get hurt in a romantic relationship compared to a platonic relationship. Romantic partners have greater risk of hurting you more than a friend and in my opinion, friends are more trustworthy than lovers. Everyone needs a best friend for times in life and you can trust them more like they always got your back. Plus, then you have a less chance of getting your heart broken.
@searain1573 dodging my statements, literally not even responding at all to what I wrote, and critiques with really fragile generalisations that only work in very very specific situations... no wonder you're so immature and full of resentment. Seriously. Therapy.
I was 6 years old when "The Little Mermaid" came out in theaters. I was 14, nearly 15 when "Tarzan" came out. I was a child/pre-teen/early teen throughout the Disney Renaissance. Hit after hit. It was a great time to be a kid. The list goes from the beginning of the renaissance through the end of the 90s: The Little Mermaid, The Rescuers Down Under, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, The Lion King, Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules, Mulan, and Tarzan. You can count Fantasia 2000, but that was mid-December 1999. You also had Toy Story, A Bug's Life, and Toy Story 2 from Pixar. The Disney television animation studio did A Goofy Movie. You had amazing live action children's films like Air Bud, Homeward Bound, The Mighty Ducks, Honey I Shrunk the Kids. So many really good movies. The animated movies, kids still enjoy. I love the love stories. I'm not a kid anymore, so I don't need Disney to provide movies for me, but I like the dated gender roles because it's based on biology. Women actually like men protecting them. Men like being heroes. Cinderella isn't a damsel in distress rescued by the prince. Technically, the Fairy Godmother and mice helped her more than the prince. Sleeping Beauty, there's no choice in the fairy tale. She needs the prince. Snow White is also one who needs the prince. But if you look at those three characters, they aren't helpless. Snow White, once she finds the dwarfs' cottage, settles into a new lifestyle without much complaint about her old one. She doesn't demand that her stepmother be brought to justice, she doesn't cry over her situation every day, she rolls up her sleeves and helps the dwarfs. Cinderella has a terrible situation, but the love she has for her dead father motivates her to keep pushing forward in life including caring for the house she grew up in and helping the animals. She does get upset about not being able to go to the ball, but she never expected to dance with the prince. She just wanted to have a night of escape. Her goodness is rewarded by the Fairy Godmother. She doesn't even realize she has been dancing with the prince. He's too stupid to even tell the Grand Duke what she looks like (serious plot hole; most adaptations make it a masquerade for a reason). He doesn't even take the shoe around himself (a lot of versions, he does). She is even the one who pulls out that second slipper after the stepmother tried to sabotage her (not to mention she got the help from her friends). Aurora was also shown to have a personality. She knew the fairies were planning a party for her, so she made sure to be out so as to ruin the surprise. That's mature and kind. She doesn't know the prince is one she dances with. Yeah, she's barely in the movie. Fair, but she's barely in the fairy tale. That is a fairy tale driven by the prince. That's the nature of Sleeping Beauty. It's more the prince's role than hers. Even though he barely talks in the movie, he's the most classic Disney prince and a stand-up guy. He told his father he wasn't marrying the princess because he fell in love with the peasant girl and kept his promise to go back to her. He had to face a gigantic dragon to rescue her. He was chained up at one point. I'm a big fan of Prince Phillip. Not to mention that is beautifully animated piece of art. It's such a gorgeous movie. Disney needs to look at traditional storytelling and quit worrying about the perpetually online judges. You please the audience. They aren't the audience. Most are bitter people with bitter hearts who hate happiness. The traditional stories are adventure stories and heterosexual love stories. Even better if you can marry those types of stories. Tarzan is an excellent example of being able to do that since it does have a love story in the books. Disney nearly flawlessly took that first book and did a phenomenal job of adapting it and updating it by fixing some...questionable parts (it was a book of its time period; I still like the book, I hope to one day read all of them, but I only have the first book, the second book, and the fifth book). I was especially surprised with their television animated series called "The Legend of Tarzan." I used to record it off television every day while I was in high school and watch it later. They brought in so much lore from the book series including Opar. It was amazing. Nearly every character in that series was from the books (I may not have all the books, but I've read some online for free). Anyway, they could do better, but they listen to the wrong people. They are creatively bankrupt and pushed talent out the door (John Lasseter) because they listened to the wrong people. If a competing studio was smart, they would make a traditional Disney-style princess movie with a love story. Don Bluth for Fox did their first animated movie, Anastasia. Very Disney-like movie. That's why it was successful (it was also a 90s animated movie). Don Bluth owned 80s animation, and he did try a Disney fairy tale romance from his studio in the mid-90s as well (Thumbelina). Good movie, not great. Same voice actress for Thumbelina did Ariel's voice, which is interesting. Another studio in the 90s did the Swan Princess, again, a Disney-type animated romance. Everyone wanted to be Disney back then. Then, Dreamworks did Shrek to kind of poke fun at Disney, but they did a romance too.
2:57 I remember seeing 'Moana' and realizing that the big guy was the protagonist's brother (and not love interest) and thinking, "Well, that's different for a Disney movie!" It didn't occur to me they'd be giving up on love stories permanently!
Can we stop labeling Snowhite, Cinderella and Aurora as "some helpless damsels" They're between the ages of 14-17, for god sake and all alone in the world and two of their only family are an abusive household WHO WANTS TO KILL THEM!!! Im tired of hearing this about them because not everyone needs to be this badass feminist who "doesn't need a man" and hates anything feminine just to be strong. By saying that it implies that people can only be strong if they're manly or a man and completely contridicts the "I don't need a man to rescue me" line. As a very feminine gay boy I held these three really close to me because they taught me that you need to use both your femininity and masculinity to be strong like Mulan did. So hearing people duking them because their more femme than other princesses makes me dissapointed in society because they didn't even watch these characters right. Instead of just crying and "waiting to be rescued" for the whole movie like alot of people say they gain the trust from animals and people around them with their kindness and work for what they want in life. Cinderella and Aurora even playfully sasses their family, Snowhite jokes with the dwarfs. Even when people say "people just give them everything" thats not true. The dwarves don't just let snowhite live in the cottage with them because "she's pretty". That might be the case but she also earns it by cleaning and helping the dwarves improve themselves. She as well as Cinderella asserts themselves and won't give up helping people around them because they care and are genuinely good people. And most of them never even mention the prince besides two songs, Two Songs and a wish then the rest of the movie it's survival. Snowhite wants to belong somewhere, Cinderella wants a break from work, Sleeping beauty wants a prince but that's okay. It's okay to long for love. Love doesn't make you weak. Not to mention the Princess (the "strong male characters") aren't even really a character besides Phillip. Even then, they more represent the reward and good things you'll get in life if you're not an asshole like the step family or the evil fairy and queen. Even the kiss scene (what most people go to immediately) isn't some allegory that "girls need a man to save them" but sometimes you just can't always do everything yourself, and you need to learn that it's okay to ask for help in life. Especially in the case of Snow and Aurora BECAUSE THEY'RE IN A FLIPPIN COMA!!! If they were written how people say they "needed to be written" Snowhite would've died by the huntsman because she's so bratty, or was kicked out by the dwarfs because she just waltzed in. Cinderella would've been left on the streets because of her attitude and was rightfully punished from the ball. And sleeping beauty and snowhite WOULD HAVE STILL BEEN IN A COMA!! Even if you don't see them the way I do people need to stop being so negative and looking for trouble everywhere. It's victim blaming not pointing out "helpless female characters".
My answer before the video starts: Because a surprisingly high number of Millenials who grew up with Disney in the 90s kept going on and on about how tired they were of traditional Disney romance stories in the 2010's. For some reason, Disney hasn't got its head around the fact that trends happen and things go in and out of style and perhaps there's a new generation/people who used to think that who now wouldn't mind a proper romance story in Disney here or there again. Edit after I watched the video: Ah, yep, pretty much hit the nail on the head.
I swear the people complaining about that stuff must've been disappointed about their own life and blamed their unhappiness on movies giving them "unrealistic expectations". My mom was like that for a while and would not let me watch perfectly normal movies just based on the cover art. Disney saw that trend and thought they had to actually cater to those people and here we are. It's always miserable people complaining about a nice fantasy/fiction.
@@iceprism367 Oh goodness! Sorry that you didn't get to watch certain movies when you were younger just because of the cover art. Have you been able to watch some of those movies recently? I do completely get where you're coming from, I do remember myself, as an autistic girl, modelling at least some of my behaviours on what I saw in Disney princess movies. I had a crush on a boy and I tried to give him flowers and be all cutesy with him like, well, I saw in Disney films. I was 9, I might add. He had absolutely no interest in me and the whole thing became a bit embarrassing, but I've completely moved on from that luckily. However, I would also argue that the formula for (almost) all main female characters to end up with a love interest was becoming a bit stale by that point, so I can understand at least some of the criticism, but I just also wish that things had been more balanced on *both* sides.
@@Enirahtak8 You don't need to pity me. I was only giving an example of what type of person wants to govern fictional content. My mom genuinely thought I would be dumb enough to think fairies were real if I watched a movie like Tinkerbell and used to black out lines in children's books in case they would "confuse" me. I've come to terms with the fact that she is not the brightest person in the world. The truth is I've never really been interested in romance myself irl (I'm probably ace), but I always loved the og Disney movies because romance was not truly the goal and the more I grow up the more I see that and think they were way better than what is currently being made. Those movies are about more than just romance, they are about two people caring about eachother enough to help eachother out of bad family lives or mindsets and ALSO falling in love. The people calling them bad DO NOT understand how bad some of those situations could be and that you need someone to help you sometimes. Not ALL stories need romance, but good romance is necessary in others and Disney is now completely avoiding something they built their company on. Even in the stories that previously featured romance such as Frozen it's been completely sidelined as a concept. I will never believe that simply writing something like *love* can go out of style. Love is not a trend and fiction should be giving kids hope, not shutting their imaginations down from childhood. I rejected romance stories for a while as a kid because of my mother (she watches the most boring Hallmark romance stuff which destroyed my view of those types of stories), but now I see that good romances are needed just as much as any other type of story because now they have basically disappeared in the west and they CAN be done well. Disney was never even my favorite franchise as a kid, Lego series were (surprisingly had better romance sometimes), but I have to say Disney's older movies had something necessarily human to them that they are missing now. There are also so many better stories in various anime whether they include romance or not so Disney is failing in even writing non-romance anyway.
Great video. I at first appreciated the lack of romance in newer Disney movies (being asexual/aromantic myself), but I do think Disney's animated movies would be better now if they at least had some romance. I think for example Tangled (as you bring up) is quite perfect and that is one movie with a lot of romance that I still related a lot to because both Rapunzel and Flynn/Eugene was such great characters that both had their own arc in the story and because it delivered on so many other points (great villain, great songs, interesting story, beautiful animation). And with Dreamworks they had Puss in Boots 2: The Last Wish that focused on so many other things more than the romance, but still had an interesting love story as a part of everything and that movie is brilliant in every way. I think those movies was part of showing me that while it can be interesting enough to have some movies that don't focus on romance at all or in a really small extent (Encanto as a great example) and I do appreciate how some characters have no romance focus (I will be disappointed if Elsa gets a romance in Frozen 3, because I've always read her as ace like me), I also really love a romance when the characters has enough agency to be interesting in themselves, not just as the love object, and when the movie also deliveres on having a great story, brilliant music, wonderful animation so that romance is one reason the movie is great and not the only reason. I also think this video also made it clear for me that the lack of romance-trend in newer Disney movies is part of a bigger issue and that is lack of character agency. Because Encanto was an exception, but most of Disney's newer animated movies haven't really been that good and while that isn't necessarily because they've lacked romance, I also think having a love story would have helped the movie in having an agency because it gives a character something to fight for. With Asha in Wish she was so boring because what she sings of in her "I Want"-song is "wanting something more for us than this", not defining specifically what that something is. As we learn from my favorite musical Into the Woods, a very important part of making a story brilliant is making characters that all have something they wish for, something that's that one thing they want more than anything and I think the lack of romance is one of many reasons why newer Disney movies seem generic and uninteresting, because that specific thing a character want more than anything isn't established, so the character is just a character and therefore forgettable.
I'm Aro/Ace but I dont really see the point of a *romantic* arc for the female character. If you remember the old movies, there was only a female part there so the guy had someone to distract him from what he was supposed to be doing in the film or to redeem him if he was going down a bad path. What kind of message was that sending to young girls? That you only exist to make a guy look good? Pah. Then movies started making their females stronger and independant. Well guess what happens when you do that? They no longer NEED a partner in their life because they can do all the heavy lifting that that role had in films, on their own. Im not saying dont have friends or family but nowadays, it feels like the romance subplot has been done to death and its only hetro. How many Disney movies had gay or bi subplots? Probably not very many. Romance in movies is as unrealistic as it is in real life because lets be honest, most guys(not sure how it works in gay relationships) only buy the flowers and the chocolates and the booze coz they think they're gonna have sex that night. Its a trick and a very old manipulation. As an Aro/Ace yourself, you should be as capable as I am, for seeing THROUGH the illusion to what it really is. A type of emotional blackmail and mind control.
The problem with Disney is that they became lazy.Nowdays I feel like they want the protagonist to be in a certain way only. For exemple, in Frozen, Anna and Elsa had a great character development I think. Anna found the love she wanted, became Queen of her country, saved her country and Elsa finally found herself in the end. Another great exemple is Moana. She didn't have any love story but she showed us how she followed her dreams and saved her poeple thanks to it. But in Wish, Asha or whatever her name is, doesn't have a personality and acts like an impatient brat all along. Even my 7 years old niece hated it because the movie's story was confusing. Disney needs to go back like they were before and show us movies with beatyful stories. They showed us many times that a person doesn't NEED a lover to depend on but that there is nothing wrong with finding it because love can be beautiful of you WANT to find it, and that's what allows a protagonist to have their own personality and character development. So instead of shaming love stories, they better learn how to write an original story again.
So I have to say something about what we perceive as 'strong' women now a days. Most people love to overlook the fact that kindness, patience, forgiveness and understanding are very good traits to have in -- not just women, but men too -- people overall, especially since these are truly strong traits. People only thing anymore of the physical 'I don't need help' sort of strength, which while some can get away with... it's also very disingenuous. Women are known to be the weaker sex (I can say this as I have the uterus to prove it), so their strengths lean more to their mental acuity, their clever natures, to their willingness to help others. It also pisses me off because the classic Princesses (Snow White, Aurora, Cinderella) all have their different strengths that most would not perceive. Snow White: No matter how many times the Evil Queen sought to kill her, she showed a patience, listened to those around her, and acted accordingly. Aurora (Princess Rose): A naivety that comes from being raised by literal fairies, but she grows up quick once she sees Prince Philip, and learns what love is. Aurora I think is my favorite character because this shows young girls how to grow up without losing certain traits from being a girl. She gets cursed yes, but it was a compulsion spell that made her, not her own will. Take that into acocunt. Cinderella: .... No matter what her step-family threw at her in a home her own father had built, she did not yell, kick, scream, demean, or do anything against them until very late in the movie, when she was locked away. Yeah they treated her like shit, but she took it in stride, and was, for the most part just waiting to find a way to leave the home without doing anything drastic. It was her step-mother destroying her chances to go to the ball that really set their downfall in motion, the break-down of everything. Her jealousy as well as that of the step daughters. Hubris, if you will. And in the live action remake? She didn't even tell them to go fuck themselves like I would have. She said 'I forgive you'. And that makes her a much stronger person than me, because I hold grudges worse than a fairy. Even Ariel and Belle can be considered 'damsels'. They aren't though because while they don't actively fight, it's more obvious where their strengths are compared to the classic princesses. Love stories... Well. We all know how much Wish failed. That is all.
Sorry but for me live action Cinderella was much weaker and way more passive. No really I am more pissed off with how she just puts up with abuse from stepfamily and never stands up for herself instead she just takes it remains always positive that actually sends a very toxic and dangerous message to abuse victims in general
Disney is criticised when they're telling love stories, they're criticised when they're not telling love stories... If I were them I wouldn't know what to do either.
Having a bit of variety between their stories should have been the solution, but Disney has historically had a tendency to stick to trends and formulas. The two eras when they were the most experimental (1977-1988 and 2000-2008) are also seen as two nadirs in the company's history, so I don't blame them. And when you find something that the viewers liked, it is natural that you want to give them more of that. But then, you will see the caustic critics rip you apart and accuse you of doing the same thing over and over instead...
It's important to Disney to relearn of their own identity. What type of image they want to keep and stick to it. A studio that produced flashy escapism of fantasy, magic, and, romance and princess? Then be one. They also need to choose one group audiences they want to targeted. The adult woman feminist who dislike romance? Or the young 18ish tumblr girl who down bad for angst and romance? Pick one. If you look at DreamWorks, they always has this charismatic larger than life/overconfident villain, Queen Nerissa, Lord Farquaad, Jack Horner, Fairy Godmother, Megamind/Metromind (I know both arent a villain), etc.. Disney in other hand, removing Star Boy because he was too similar with the Genie. Look at DreamWorks, Disney. They did the same archetype over and over, but nobody complaining to the point of hating it. It's because they're sincere, they are sincere to do what they love (charismatic overconfident larger than life character), instead trying to be something they're not.
@@valhatan3907 I don't think you necessarily need your own style for EVERYTHING because if there's anything superhero movies taught us it's that every character has their own mood and they can't all have the same funny kid-friendly movies, some are dark and some are fun and some are for adults and some are for kids. You can't always have the same style for everything and having different stories is a good thing not bad but these stories need to be good.
Disney forgot about the Power Couple trope when they started saying "if a woman loves a man and cares about him she's not independent enough". Yeah.. okay. Some couples are stronger, better, more successful TOGETHER rather than APART. Probably my all time favorite Power Couples are Gomez and Morticia Addams, Elastigirl and Mr. Incredible, and (hear me out guys) the Spy Kids' parents. I can't remember their names but they were badass in all films. Anyway, the closest Disney ever got to a Power Couple dynamic I can think of was in Mulan. But even then it wasn't explored or fleshed out. (The second film doesn't count because that had a dumb plotline.)
@katiemaurer8807 Kim and Ron yeah... but I wouldn't count Shego and Drakken since they were more Boss/Employee than an actual couple. I know people shipped them but to me, they never got to that level
Men and women compliment one another. We enhance each other's strengths and cover each other's weaknesses. A woman being in a romantic relationship doesn't make her weak.
No villain songs and No love duetts for years. When Disney tried to make them again for Wish they became a weak villain song and not a love duett. At all cost was ment to be a love song but in the finished movie it was… I don’t know what it is. A wierd duett between the hero and the villain . I don’t understand it. The animatics fans have made with the demo are so good that if you want a Disney love duett then watch them.
Yeahhh at all costs is super strange to me. It still sounds like it was supposed to be a love song which makes it weird hearing King Magnifico sing it. It just doesn’t work for me.
I’m so tired of the “Selfless female protagonist” having no love interest. They can’t have both apparently, because loving someone is supposed to be weak? Great lesson Disney.
Princesses not needing a love to do their thing is cool, but like you said, you can have a daring and courageous woman AND a man by her side. They should just have a balance instead of killing it. This is what we know Disney for (also songs), there was no reason to stop.
I think it is the same problem as with female heroes in Marvel. They do all the wrong conclusions. What people want is intresting, diverse and fun stories, for characters to be alive and relatable, but Disney only tries to find a "matrix" of a new character and copypast it to every movie.
As a romance-enjoyer, I've grown so damn tired of the way people put down and scorn romance stories. ROMANCE IS PLOT! ROMANCE REQUIRES DEEP CHARACTER WORK!!! Romance stories are not "lesser" and if your romance deminishes the characters, you wrote a bad romance! It's not a reflection of romance being bad, its a reflection of bad writing!!!
Frozen 2 actually had an outtake duet between Anna and Kristoff and it was really really sweet. In the song, Anna ended up being the one to propose and it felt less in your face than the proposal we got in the movie. I was honestly kinda sad that it didn't make it into the final cut.
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate how they’re *attempting* to make a point that people don’t NEED romantic relationships to be whole or happy. And that family and friends are just as important, if not more so. BUT… I love *love*. The fact Disney robbed us of Starboy and Asha hurts me on a deeper level than I expected it would. Why, Disney? Why? 😭💔
Honestly, I think in part is because the traditional Disney love story was essentially perfected with "Tangled". I'm not even joking there. "Tangled" is hands down the best love story in the entire Disney canon. Not even "Beauty and the Beast" comes even close, and that's not a dig against it. Is just that "Tangled" is THAT good of a love story. Probably they saw that there was no way in hell they'd ever be able to top that one, so they decided to not bother and explore new territories. (OK, maybe I'm joking in this last part lol)
I would say Disney did listen to criticism and did create more ''dominant'' female leads with Tangled, Princess and the Frog, and also Frozen. However, because of the new feminist movement, they completely scrapped princesses and love stories altogether after Frozen. For this, I blame stupid ideas and the internet.
It’s great seeing Disney princesses who don’t need men but I miss the stories when the prince would risk it all to be there for her and save her at the end. Just because a woman is a damsel in distress doesn’t mean she is any less powerful and independent. Sometimes we all get in trouble and need help
I think people impacted disney in a way that shut out the magic of story telling and the whismical love story book feel it used to have, but i guess the complained 😮💨
Disney used to be a place for magic and dreams, recently it feels like they’re leaning towards realism more than ever with their attempt to have the audience relate and see themselves in their movies, and then stick a happy ending at the end cuz why not. It’s not bad to want to connect with the audience, but to emphasize it so much that you lose the story and the magic therein? Not worth it in my humblest opinion.
I didn't realize it until it was pointed out, but now that you mention it, the last real romantic plot being Tangled is really sad. Because it's absolutely one of the best ones, if not the best one. Both characters are fleshed out and have their times to shine, and it's absolutely a shining example of what should be done, and how most things can work if you just write compelling characters and a good story. It's almost like they realized they peaked with Rapunzel and Flynn and just decided to not even try anymore.
Everyone seems to be allergic to telling love stories. The whole subject has become ringed around with paranoia and hair-trigger extremes. Any "love story" you see now is really about one person and their anxieties, not two people falling in love. Hell, the whole concept of "falling in love" has become anathema - how could you possibly "fall in love" without knowing every single detail of the other person's life and psyche and having it match YOUR expectations exactly? And "falling in love" quickly??? IT'S IMPOSSIBLE OMG !!!111!!!!! The whole thing has gotten ridiculous. Who even WANTS to hear a love story under such silly and self-sabotaging restraints? Jeez, how did the younger generation become so timid and fearful and Victorian? It's depressing beyond belief.
I’m not the romance type person se, but damn if I’m not a sucker for a good romance in my stories. They’re obviously not necessary for everything, but they’re a *vital* part of the human experience, and in many stories, is often one of the few moments of levity for characters facing hardships and is ultimately enriching from a narrative standpoint, assuming it’s well-written and believable. People are too bitter and cynical and it really shows in a lot of writing.
I honestly don't know what annoys me more, that people now believes that love/romance is bad and hate is good or that we are forced to relate to unlikable characters based on their appearances. My personal theory is the reason why Disney is hates love stories and songs now is because of Buzzfeed. I think it's unfair to reject a good story that has romance elements for the sake of modern media. As someone who is a single bi, listening to love songs not only helps me grow, but also makes me feel something that's good inside... Nice take on this video!❤😊
Wasn't this due to people whining for 20 years over how Disney should not be doing love stories because they are providing unrealistic standards for the audience? Can't complain when Disney is finally responding to the audience.
I never thought the day would come where I would miss the days when Disney would make love stories. I blame Bob Iger and the executives for this. Now I have to turn to fanfics and Wattpad stories to fill the void.
I just wanna comment on the princesses you mentioned being criticized... they were released in the 30s and 50s respectively and their primary character traits were in fact being soft spoken good homemakers and damsels in distress. Their female protagonists are literally products of their outdated time period, and EVEN THEN, we got Cinderella was also released in the 50s and she's not a damsel in distress. The fact that disney changed and evolved their princesses and gave us Ariel, Belle, Jasmine in the 90s is proof that Disney has evolved past this "only make them damsels" mindset. Do they need to be saved by their LIs at some point? SURE, but arguably you could also say that doesn't really apply to Belle, Eric saving Ariel was working off her saving him earlier, and Jasmine and Alladin were working in tandem to take down Jafar until Jafar trapped her in the hourglass. Even still, they had personalities, interests and ideas unique to themselves. They weren't reliant on their man to stand on their own. That being said, it looked like they wanted to bring back the love story with Wish, but cut it... and it just... My main thing is why would you cut the love story but keep the love song?! It doesn't make sense!
This video was just me offering an explanation for why *Disney* moved away from love stories. I agree that they were products of their time and it’s important to consider that when looking at them today.
I think it has to do with our current political climate. Romance in general is at war with current culture because I feel nobody knows romance anymore. Rom Coms struggled in the 2010s for example. There’s a bit of a resurgence now, but it’s nowhere near the 90s and early 2000s. I also think that whether you agree or disagree with issues about different kinds of love besides a man and woman, that has also played a role in why romance films have declined. I’m not going into the political and religious implications because WWIII will begin but no one can deny the fact that has played a role in popular culture.
Disney went downhill since they started remaking everything from our childhood. Regardless if they have romance or not, MAKE A BETTER LIKEABLE STORY INSTEAD OF POLITICS
Also, why is Disney's first openly gay romance in an animated movie, Ethan and Diazo from "Strange World," just as downplayed? Diazo is in the film for about 2 minutes and is practically not a character. Roxanne, the love interest from "A Goofy Movie" is, like, a hundred times more developed as a character than Diazo.
I can’t help but feel like Disney wants the credit for putting diversity in their films without actually putting in the effort required to make it good representation.
Society as a whole has shunned relationships in general, specifically relationships (to include friends and romance) with men. It might not sell at the box office, but it sure as hell is selling in real life. Statistics are getting worse and worse for relationships every year, there’s really no point in even trying anymore. Society is pushing for a relationshipless age, so be it if it kills off humanity.
We are transitioning away from the status quo that a woman has to be in a stable relationship to be classed as successful. You are just angry that you have to provide more to a relationship than "being the breadwinner". In the previous ages people would stay in relationships which weren't fulfilling at all more often because of the social stigma around leaving. Nowadays people are only staying when they are happy. If you cannot provide the qualities another person needs for a fulfilling relationship then they are free to leave without being witch hunted. And so are you. At least it should be like this.
I do admit that i like that they are not overdoing the romance plots nowdays, in the end if the day there are way more Princess with love interest than single one. I like that Moana, Mirabel and Elsa don't have love interest because their stories don't need them and i like the message that you don't nessesary need to fall in love to be happy or that a female character needs a love interest to help her grow (not that the old Disney Princesses gave that impresion). HOWEVER, i completely agree that a female character falling in love or having a love interest doesn't make her less strong and independent and l would love to see another classic Disney love story, specialy if it is similar to Eugene and Rapunzel, Hercules and Megara or Mulan and Shang. Another thing i want to add in regards of wish since you showed the Star Boy concept: While i do agree with a lot of people that are saying that Star Boy should have been keep in the final movie and i consider that AshaxStarboy is an adorable ship, i don't really think that their romance would have made the movie better. I could be wrong, but the concepts are just that, concepts and ideas that we don't know how if they would have been developed well in the final product and as sad at it sounds, i don't think that Wish reception would have turned out that diferent even if they keep the og concepts.
Disney stopped making love stories since frozen and that’s why their movies since frozen has been boring(to me) and not replay worthy . They stopped making love movies to not offend 2 groups of people. The feminists and lgbtq people. The feminist, girl boss will say they don’t need a man to rescue them or help them (even though not all Disney movies before has the men saving them) and the lgbtq will say Disney loves making heteronormative stories and don’t like representing gay stories in their movies. That’s why their new movies have Been flopping eg look at wish. They need to go back to what people have known them as which is that romantic love fantasy stories they’ve been known to do to be successful. People need to stop relating too much on Disney stories cus it’s what ✨FANTASY✨, not real so they won’t get offended with every thing
Let's not mince words. They WERE talented before. However, they have regressed SO FAR that they can't even animate a damn horse when EUDWEARD MUYBRIDGE IS RIGHT THERE AS A REFERENCE. They can't write actual villains, they can't write actual heroes, and they can't push the medium. All they know is the basics. This is worse than the "Dark Ages" of the company. It's now the "Remedial Age" of Disney. Also, you forgot Roger Rabbit as the means to get to the Disney Renaissance.
Honestly I think there's a bit of a bigger problem. They seem to have forgotten how to write characters and morals in general in a lot of their more recent movies so of course romance seems impossible to them. This is just a hunch, but I have the feeling they might have replaced their talent with younger people with less experience plus the execs probably nitpick out any romance because of all the online complaining people have done regarding the classics. I swear Disney can't even write a simple interesting story anymore nevermind a compelling romance.
If they insist on focusing on sequels only, they could at least make Encanto 2 and give us a cute love duet between Dolores and Mariano (and flesh out their characters more). I personally liked Wish, I like it as is and I also like all the Star Boy fan content a lot too. But I also like the old princesses and wouldn't mind damsels in distress that have a prince charming or knight in shining armor save them. Fantasy isn't about girlbossing, it's about escapism. When life sucks it's nice to daydream about happily ever afters.
If Star Boy art/animatics are any indication…most ppl want them back.
Yeah, I think wish was a big missed opportunity in this department.
@@isaacmurdock WE WE'RE ROBBED OUT OF WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE BEST SHIPS IN 8 YEARS😭😭
@@edenbercier7511 its the executives. Had they not interfered, we probably would have gotten one of the best modern films and the greatest love letter to the company
Unfortunately haven't seen your videos such a long time wished to spend more time on your videos abit more. ❤6:34 @@isaacmurdock
The movie is fine, but I think people would've liked it WAAAY better if the original idea was used. Basically, WE'VE BEEN ROBBED BY THE PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE DAMN THING!!
I've been asking the question why Wish didn't include a love story. When I looked at the concept art, Asha was plans to have a love plot with Star. However their reasoning as the why they cut it was because they want Asha to come into her own and not having Star doing all the heavy lifting. Which is weird because they could had Asha coming to her own while falling in love with Star.
An example of this is Beauty and the Beast. Beast didn't do most of the heavy lifting, Belle did by showing him acceptance and kindness. Which helps the Beast to open himself up to her and learn how to care for others outside of himself. I feel Disney is subscribing into the idea that all romances are bad/one note or that it's outdated. But, falling in love isn't a bad thing. It helps our main characters to grow to become their best selves.
Couldn’t agree more!
I so agree with you in this! Thanks! Disney seriously needs to bring back romantic love stories!
Disney’s point of view on everything seems to be really shallow nowadays
She still didnt do the heavy lifting but actually rely on plushie star and her 'friends' =__=
This is really funny because most old disney princess did the heavy lifting, besides a few exception (snowwhite and sleeping beauty being saved by the prince) every other pincess always did their own thing and still fell in love. Cinderella and tiana hard worker that defeat the villain but still fall in love, Mulan saved whole china, Ariel and rapunzel fought mostly together against their villain. So overal disney princesses always did their own thing with or without their lovers help and were never reduced to complete helplessness
Being in love with a man does not mean you are nothing with him. I’m tired of the narrative that you can’t be your own person in a relationship, and that girls don’t want love stories. He’s we do! Everyone wants love sometimes.
Mulan, Brair Rose, Belle.
Pretty okay before they met their Prince.
I'm actually writing a love story about an invisible man, but instead of making the girl character someone who does nothing (like Bella Swan, sorry Stephanie Meyers), I want to make the female character very proactive in trying her best to follow her dreams, which is to be a chemist. Being she's from a time period where women don't really get the jobs they want, the girl gets the opportunity of a life time when she runs into this invisible man trying to cure his invisibility. I don't know, it might sound stupid to some people, but I want something juicy.
Not everyone wants love(romantic love).
But I don't think that Disney should stop making love stories. They should do both, do some stories where the protagonist doesn't want love, but still do some love stories.
@@torytellstalesthat story sounds amazing!
@@SemiQuiet26 Thank you. I only write a few chapters. My goal is to get it done this year 🥰
Of course i love a princess who doesn't need a man, but i think Disney needs to go back to creating characters who don't need a romantic partner, but who have one because they want one, not because they need one, i miss that
Exactly. Both are important!
@3mermaidmelodyfanatic3
Jasmine: S'up
Serious question: If you dont need one, why would you have one at all?
@@starscreamthecruel8026I think it’s more along the lines of someone who has actualization outside of having a romantic partner, who is able to find meaning outside the traditional romantic bond, but still has one because they want to and their partner wants to.
They have a whole wrong idea about what makes a woman strong. It’s not that you don’t need love to be strong. You can have both and they forget that
I think the main issue with Disney nowadays is that they are afraid of showing ANY main characters being in love or loving something. Look, I’m a sucker for romance but I can be a fan of a movie with romance or with no romance at all. But having your main characters being always in the right and 100% independent is just boring to be honest.
Like I understand Disney doesn’t want to fall into the “damsel in distress” category but someone loving someone actually makes them a stronger and more likable protagonist.
👆👆👆
True. Romance is one of the tropes of Disney since Snow White. Mainly because Walt was a romantic himself. But there is nothing wrong with showing an aromantic protagonist. However, you are right. Disney needs to make their movies consistent, with some protagonists who fall in love or supporting characters falling in love, or aromantics who are writing their own stories. It's all in the balance
That is true. Especially with girls, there's an aversion to letting a girl get care or support from anyone even friends.
It isn't wrong to stop putting romantic feelings on a pedestal, and more recent excuses for bot including romance have been "we want to explore other kinds of love" which is not bad in concept, but other than Moana and arguably Brave, their friends or family don't seem to help/serve as motivation in any substantial way. A focus on "independence" has made them appear isolated, and left their friend and family bonds poorly fleshed out. Kids don't care about romance, anyhow.
Kids shows aside, though, it's disappointing that we don't have more dramas, superhero films, etcetera with a romantic subplot substituted with something more important , difficult, and real than the 146th "will they won't they" routine. Because it could be great, they just don't do anything with it.
Platonic love is one of the strongest types of love, while romantic love is one of the weakest types of love. When a guy and a girl are best friends, they won't date or be in a romantic relationship with each other since they know it wouldn't work since they are too close. That proves that romantic love is inferior to platonic love.
The best feeling for many girls is being able to have platonic guy friends that are like brothers to them. Most girls prefer having platonic guy friends over a boyfriend/husband. Many girls would choose their platonic male best friend over their boyfriend/husband and give more importance to them. Most girls seem to be more comfortable being around their platonic male best friends than they are being around their boyfriends/husbands.
People are closer to their platonic best friends than they are to their romantic partner. People usually love their platonic best friend more than their romantic partner. Platonic love is actually real, while romantic love is fake. Romantic relationships are actually a downgrade compared to platonic relationships.
Remember Encanto?
Even though really briefly, the small plot between Dolores and Mariano's love was something I found to be interesting.
That’s true, there is a small love element in Encanto but my argument is that Disney hasn’t been giving love stories to their protagonists (Mirabel, Asha, Raya, etc.)
oh yeah, I liked although the protagonist did not have a love story, it does not mean that other characters there do not have one; the love story was that of her grandmother and Pedro Madrigal
Yep. Side character romance is my guilty pleasure
the thing is that they barely interacted. I love side character romance as well but when it's actually shown, not something we hear about
If Disney took one passing glance at the Dolores/Mariano tag on AO3, they'd see just how much people crave romance lmao
I think a problem Disney has when writing their protagonists is that none of them are really flawed, they're always in the right and they're not the ones who go through the character arc of growth and changing as a person. And I think this is a bad moral to put in movies particularly aimed at children because real people have many flaws that they need to grow from, but by preaching everyone is perfect as they are promotes stagnation in the development of people, hense why we see so many adults who have the mentality of children.
I like this take. Good insights! 👏🔥
I mean no disrespect when I ask this, but weren't many of the Disney princess's also like this? I mean, yes, they went on a journey that was a result of who they were, but there was ultimately very little change from princesses like Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel, Belle, or Jasmine. I honestly can't think of any big lesson they learned or if they had character growth.
@@mattneese8571 ehhh, you're kinda right and wrong here.
Let me put an example: Hercules did have character grow in his movie, he went from wanting to go to Olympus with his birth parents to wanting to stay on heart with the love of his life and he learned what being a true hero means. Hercules main problem was that he didn't feel like he belonged with the other mortals, because of the rejection of his towns people, he wanted to belong somewhere and be apreciated, he learned that he didn't need to go to Olympus to get that, because he meet Meg and Phill.
Hercules personality (that you could argue, Is pretty similar to characters like Asha, in the sense that he is "adorkable" somethimes) didn't change a lot thought the movie, but he did grow and learned things.
Same with characters like Li Shang, The beast and Aladdin.
Doesn't help that all their female charachter have the same spunky but bubbly personality. That is more childish then endearing.
And that's why I fucking love spiderverse Gwen. She is totally in the wrong but is she tho? Her imperfections are out of love for the people around her and her evolution throughout the span of 2 hours is just beautiful to watch. We don't get that many layers from multifaceted characters who you can just feel the work and dedication the writers put into anymore, let alone who is also actually a strong female character
The fact that Elemental bounced back and received 484 million in the box office, shows they obviously loved the romance between Ember and Wade. So love stories could make a comeback!
but that's pixar
I think what they are saying is that if Pixar can do it, then so can Disney Animation.
True, even tho elemental was pretty cliche, it was still more entertaining than what Disney's been putting out. It was honestly really adorable and wholesome, and I want to see more of that in disney.
I don't think the romantic type of love is special, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real. I mean about more than half of romantic couples either break up with each other or divorce each other. I think humans should just ditch concepts like dating, marriage, and pair bonding. I feel like this world would be a much better place without romance than it is with it.
In my opinion, romantic love should not be on the highest pedestal. In my opinion, parents and siblings' family love is the strongest. Family knows who you are. Romance is fake for lots of people, put on a false persona and romance on most parts gets ugly real fast. For the reality of romance is no Disney love story.
Parents and siblings' family love is one of the strongest types of love there is. If romantic love is actually real, it would be one of the weakest types of love there is.
Mulan wasn’t exactly a love story until the last few minutes of the movie which they didn’t exactly “fall in love” rather the male lead was invited to dinner and they’re love story was actually the second movie
Well... Mulan got into male character at first seconds and emperor openly told us that hr was into her romantically.
Mulan: Would you like to stay for dinner?
Grandmama: WOULD YOU LIKE TO STAY FOREVER?
I’m sorry… but I’m so tired of people calling princesses like Snow White and Aurora “weak damsels” or “harmful stereotypes”.
There’s a reason their stories have stood the test of time. Both women and men have loved the idea of true love conquering the harshest of obstacles for centuries. It’s a touching sentiment, and one that resonates with a massive audience, because at the end of the day, we all want to find our true love.
Yes both princesses were put under a sleeping curse for the last parts of their films, but that doesn’t automatically make them weak. It was never done with the intention to demean women, it was done to create stakes and dramatic grip for the audience who’ve grown attached to them by the time the curse takes place.
So many people make the ridiculous claim that the movies were always male oriented, as it was the men who would save the Princess by the end of the film.. but I want you to ask yourself something… from these movies, who’s the more prominent and remembered character? Who’s the one on the posters? Who are the ones the films are named after?? Not Prince Florian (yes that’s his name, it was never even addressed in Snow White as he was practically a background character), and it’s definitely not Prince Phillip.
Looking back, the male characters didn’t exactly do much of the heavy lifting like so many activists claim today. In Snow White, it was the animals who had to retrieve the dwarves, and even then it was the Evil Queen who did herself in by trying to drop a heavy boulder on them while standing on a cliff side during a thunder storm. Even in Sleeping Beauty, it was the three good fairies (who are all women) who saved Phillip (the man) from Maleficent. They gave him his sword and shield, they guided his passage out of her castle, and it was their spell that ultimately killed the dragon.
Yes the men served their purpose and kissed the girl, and we got our happy ending, but people are purposefully forgetting everything around that fact, and are using it to bash these movies that don’t deserve it. The classic princesses will forever be timeless, and beloved by the world. Their love stories will always resonate with millions of fans across the world. It’s just how it is. No amount of modern girl-boss films/arguments will ever change that.
I’m not the biggest fan of Snow White and lord knows I’ll never like Aurora The Wooden Princess but they are products of their time period. So I can’t be too bad on them.
Cinderella that character I will always defend though. Her and Ariel.
@@Rebelheart1985 I have to say that unlike the later princesses, it is like Snow White doesn't feel like a real human being to me.
It is hard to explain what I mean, except that I feel that she's like a parody of what ignorant people think that all Disney princesses are like.
However, she is good at improving the life of the dwarfs and not the complete waste of space that her worst detractors claim that she is.
Sure, she has to be saved from a sleeping spell by a kiss from Florian who doesn't even appear in more than two scenes in the entire movie.
But really, it is an old fairytale and shouldn't be overanalyzed like it is by many cynics today...
Aurora is better than Snow White since she feels like an actual human being, but the poor girl is hardly given anything to do in her own story.
It is true though like the OP said that many people seem to miss that Philip would have failed badly if three women hadn't helped him.
Cinderella was actually a strong young woman when you consider her circumstances as an abused orphan in the 19th century.
Ariel happened to be the first Disney princess to save the prince, and she could save Eric on her own and without any help from others like Philip had.
What I think is that the people who complain at these movies don't really get the stories to begin with...
Sleeping Beauty’s plot is not something that should have been in a kids movie. The love was non consential and the original version is way worse.
@@vixxexo6855 first of all, Walt Disney said himself his movies and products weren’t meant strictly for kids. They were for people of all ages, because he said (and I quote:) “the adults have the money”. Adults were always a target demographic from the creator of the company/brand himself.
And tf you mean it was not consensual? She obviously had feelings for the Prince, especially after they danced and spent time together in the forest. That’s the whole point of that dance scene, it’s meant to show that they’ve fallen for each other, and they don’t want to be with who they’re betrothed to… the Prince telling his father he fell for a “peasant girl” he met, and Aurora breaking down when she was told she was betrothed to some Prince she “didn’t” even know. It’s supposed to be ironic because they just so happen to be in love with the ones they’re already betrothed to, and that’s why they’ve already met before. Once upon a dream. It also reaffirms that their love is true, and not born out of greed or tradition, because they fell in love before they even knew who each other were.
I don't think romantic relationships are a good thing and I think this world would be a much better place without them. Most fathers and brothers hope that their daughter/sister never finds a partner and remain single for her whole life due to the dangers and risks of romantic relationships.
It seems nearly all fathers and brothers don't ever want their daughter/sister to have a boyfriend/husband. The overprotective father/brother thing is proof that romantic relationships are a bad thing, and that this world would be a better place without them.
Most fathers and brothers seem to get upset whenever their daughter/sister dates someone, and that proves that romantic relationships are a bad thing. Being single is far safer than being in a romantic relationship. People (especially women) should avoid romantic relationships and be single.
The thing that really gets me is how they handled Kristoff’s subplot in Frozen II where he tries to propose to Anna but it (“hilariously”) falls flat on his face. He even has a whole freaking song about it.
The biggest issue I had is that his attempts to propose show just how immature and ignorant he is. The first three times he tries to propose, Anna is clearly upset/worried about something (usually Elsa). Any sane person would see their loved one struggling and think “Okay, now is not a good time. I’ll get on it later. Right now, I need to help him/her out.”
Honestly, they could’ve cut Kristoff’s proposal attempts out entirely and it would’ve had no bearing on the plot. If anything, it would’ve streamlined it further and shown him as a man who puts his girlfriend’s needs before himself.
This is a great point. His character was handled very strangely in that movie.
I think one of the biggest issues Disney has right now is this pattern of following social trends rather than try to make something good and original that their audience would love to see.
I like a good romance. Don't force it in where it doesn't belong, but also, don't shy away from it if that's the direction the creative team wants to go.
Good take 👆
Romantic love is fake.
I don't think romantic relationships are a good thing and I think this world would be a much better place without them. Most parents hope that their daughter never finds a partner and remain single for her whole life due to the dangers and risks of romantic relationships.
It seems nearly all mothers and fathers don't ever want their daughter to have a boyfriend/husband. The overprotective parent thing is proof that romantic relationships are a bad thing, and that this world would be a better place without them.
Most parents seem to get upset whenever their daughter dates someone, and that proves that romantic relationships are a bad thing. Being single is far safer than being in a romantic relationship. People (especially women) should avoid romantic relationships and be single.
Meanwhile spiderverse Gwen stacy laughs in the face of disney's incompetence in writing a character who so perfectly balances out getting strong development and romance
She’s a great character!
True! And Puss and Kitty in The Last Wish, which your reference reminded me of
Astrid, Tzipporah, Bala, Fiona, Ginger, etc. too from DreamWorks
Gwen is basically what Sabine Wren should’ve been in the Ahsoka series.
I feel like movies like Moana seemed very natural to be without an RO, not every story needs a love story.
That being said, love stories arent a poison. I do miss them, and some stories absolutely need them
At least, Moana has two types of love; Friendship and Family Love/Community Love 😁
I don't think romantic love is real or special, and I think romantic relationships are a bad thing. I think humans should just stop being in romantic relationships. I feel like this world would be a much better place without romance than it is with it. Romance seems like an ugly thing.
Many fathers won't allow their daughters to date when they are in high school or still living with them. It does seem that nearly all fathers are hoping that their daughters never date or get married and remain single for their whole life due to the dangers and risks of romantic relationships.
The overprotective father thing is proof that romantic relationships are a bad thing, and that this world would be a much better place without them. If someday that the human race ditches the concept of romance and romantic relationships, and got rid of stuff like dating and marriage, fathers would be happy about it since they wouldn't ever have to worry about their daughters ever dating if that ever happened.
People (especially women) should avoid being in a romantic relationship and be single for life since romantic relationships are dangerous.
3:51 "The easy way out"?
More like the coward's way out.
Couldn’t agree more!
I didn't think my comment would get this much attention...
Great commentary! I think The Princess and the Frog is also a good example of a strong female protagonist with a love story done right. Both Tiana and Naveen have character arcs like Rapunzel and Eugene. The message of that movie, that what you want is not the same as what you need, is something I don't think modern Disney would do.
They also teach each other something as they get to know each other. Tiana was very much all about work; she was running herself ragged trying to scrape enough money to buy her own restaurant, to the point where she didn't have much else in her life. Naveen was the opposite, doing so much partying that his family was cutting him off. But as they got to know each other, Naveen became willing to do things, while Tiana learnt that taking a moment to relax and enjoy herself was just as important. So by the end of the film, they work together on the restaurant, with Tiana managing it and Naveen making it lively.
In my opinion, (whilst I do love a good romance, and am not a fan of the “girl bossing 100% all the time”) I think Disney’s protagonists are missing not a love interest specifically but someone close to share their innermost wants, dreams, desires, emotions, etc, that side of them that they really can’t share with any other character. Wether that be a best friend, sibling, or love interest they need someone they can casually be vulnerable with
That’s a cool way to look at it. 👏
I lke that idea
Because they got a lot of shit for it. For reasons, people assume that a female character wanting romantic love diminishes her or makes her less independent. SMDH. 🙄🙄
Diminish? Depends how you write it. Certainly makes her distracted though.
I guess they’re learning not to pander to people who don’t watch their movies [or do watch them just to hate on it and get cool internet points] lol
Romantic relationships are not a beautiful thing. Romance causes a lot of problems in this world. Life is a lot better without romance than it is with it. Romantic love is not special at all, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real.
I don't know why women would still want to be in a romantic relationship when studies prove single women are the happiest demographic. Women are the happiest when single and focused on themselves. Multiple studies have shown that women live happier and healthier lives being single then being married.
Statistically speaking, women are happiest when single. Also, women can have friends and biological family that they share a life with. We as humans need the presence of other humans in our lives yes. But we can live alone. We don’t need romantic relationships to survive. We do need love and support, but it can be from friends and family. It does not need to be from a romantic partner.
I wish "Frozen" would´ve a) followed more the original fairytale and b) followed the original ideas the team had. Imagine a villain Elsa, imagine Anna who has to save her brother (like in the orignal fairytale the protagonist Gerda had to save her best friend Kai from the Snow Queen). Imagine Hans not being a villain. Like the movie tried so hard with Hans not being the love interest bc "you can´t just marry a man you just met" but at the same time push the "love at first (or second) sight" with Kristoff. It would´ve been so much better if Hans kissed Anna and didn´t break the curse bc hey just met, but that he still cares for her. It would´ve shown "well you might not immediately be in love since you just met, but after a few months of spending time together it COULD bloom into sth romantic"
You're right that protagonists can have their own amazing character arcs, whether they have a love interest or not.
But I feel like when it came to "Wish," Disney got lazy. I hear that it was supposed to be in 2D, and we could have gotten our first love story since Anna and Kristoff, and we could have especially seen DISNEY'S FIRST EVER VILLAIN COUPLE. It would have been amazing, but no, Disney took the easy way out because doing those three things for their 100th anniversary film would take a lot of effort, and why put effort into a Disney movie with too many Easter eggs, even though it takes place years before the events of the classic Disney movies? It even makes me sad and pisses me off how this was actually easy to see why because Bob Iger said, "Entertain the kids first, don't put in any morals." I can't stand that because in my opinion, morals are what make a story mean something.
Do you really want to see great female protagonists in animated movies? Think about Studio Ghibli. "Princess Mononoke" was mostly about San *(the wolf princess)* hating humans because of the destruction that was done in her forest, but after meeting Ashitaka, she begins to warm up to him *(even though it takes a while for her to do so),* and what makes their love story so impactful is that Ashitaka teaches San how there's no good or bad side in a conflict, but hatred causes a war to happen, and their love story comes second. Plus, the romance doesn't happen immediately. San literally says, "I like you, but I still can't forgive the humans for what they've done."
Another thing that I love so much about Studio Ghibli's female protagonists is that their goals and their character arcs come first *(Their character arcs are done so beautifully),* but there are moments where they can feel super vulnerable and emotional, but luckily, they don't have saviors. They only have friends and supporters to help guide them on their journey *(and most of their supporters are Ghibli's male characters),* and it's better to ask for help so you can work harder to accomplish something. The strongest people are the most vulnerable people and I'm so glad that Studio Ghibli understands this.
Plus, Modern Disney's laziness somehow makes me root for other studios like Sony Pictures Animation even more. Remember when Sony Animation was a joke of an animation studio that only made childish animated movies just for the sake of making money? Well, I feel like after the flop that was "The Emoji Movie," Sony was like, "Oh no, we hecked up." So they released "Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse" a year later, and it was so critically acclaimed that it became an animation classic and won an Oscar for Best Animated Feature.
I feel like Sony Animation realized that they needed to make better animated movies by telling better stories, because after the success of "Into the Spider-Verse," they made so many underrated masterpieces that don't get any love and appreciation whatsoever, even if they deserve it. "The Mitchells VS The Machines" is one of the greatest comedies I've ever watched, "Wish Dragon" was still a good movie, had an intense third act, and had different character arcs, even if the movie itself felt too much like a modern version of "Aladdin," and I think "Vivo" was Sony's first ever animated musical because now that the studio was trying to be better, they wanted to try something new, and they were probably super excited when they found out that Lin-Manuel Miranda was writing the songs, because the studio probably watched his work for "Hamilton" and "Moana."
Also, do you think that "Across the Spider-Verse" lived up to the hype of the first Spider-Verse movie? Of course it did, because that takes EFFORT. And Sony Animation went ahead and made their animators and writers put in so much of their effort and hard work to make the second Spider-Verse movie inhumanely spectacular.
I'm still pretty mad at them for overworking their animators too much *(and caused more than 100 animators to quit),* but unlike Modern Disney, at least Sony admitted why they overworked their animators, admitted their mistakes, and they thanked their animators for making the sequel super compelling, so I feel more proud than mad, because I believe that anyone can change as long as they're willing to change, and Sony Animation did exactly that.
The main reason why I'm rooting for Sony Animation even more is because they learned something after the success of "Into the Spider-Verse." They began to make more masterpieces because they tried to put in so much of their effort to make them amazing, and they let their talented workers go so hard. Heck, THEY LITERALLY HIRED A 14-YEAR-OLD KID TO ANIMATE THE LEGO DIMENSION IN THE SECOND SPIDER-VERSE MOVIE BECAUSE THEY WERE STUNNED BY HIS LEGO RECREATION OF ONE OF THE TRAILERS. That's a huge deal.
And now, Sony is delaying "Beyond the Spider-Verse" because I think they said themselves that they're trying to put in so much effort to make the third movie the most compelling finale for Miles Morales' story, but they're trying to let their animators recover first. And now, I'm really optimistic about the third movie because much like the second Spider-Verse movie, the third movie is being delayed because Sony wants to put in more effort in it to make it more compelling, even though Sony said that they're heartbroken for making the fans wait longer, but they also said it was for the best, so even though I feel bummed that I have to wait longer, I feel more optimistic than bummed because now Sony is actually TRYING. So now, I'm thinking, '"Beyond the Spider-Verse" is going to be the greatest movie ever made."
Plus, I may not like "The Emoji Movie" at all, but one thing I can respect it for is that it was the movie that made Sony Animation redeem themselves as a studio. Because now, Sony went from a joke of an animation studio to a studio that's about to take Disney's crown for Best Animation Studio (but the crown truly goes to Ghibli).
Disney should do what Studio Ghibli and Sony Animation did by making more compelling character arcs *(whether the characters are in love or not),* and learning from their mistakes to make better animated movies.
Thanks for watching the video, you made some great points! 👏
Good points another reason why love stories are helpful is due to the fan base that grows from it wish could have had that but sadly this is what happens when you don’t have imagination
@@villanlover58"Wish" only has a fandom because everyone is sad about what the movie could have been, so now they're rewriting the movie in their own ways.
Once I get a job at Disney as a 2-d artist, I'll bring back the era of classic Disney movies. I'll create brilliant animated masterpieces that follow Studio Ghibli's example. I love romantic movies, and I want to bring romance back to Disney. That's my goal.✊🏻
@@deenadallas2802 Imagine if the movie was actually great? It could have had so many more fans!
I don't mind them doing non- romantic stories. Pinocchio, Alice in wonderland, Lilo and stitch, Moana, Wreck it Ralph, and Enchanto show there can be great stories with no romance.
What's frustrating about the most recent film, Wish, is that they have one song was CLEARLY a love song. Especially when it's revealed that Star has a human form.
So it's pretty bad to make and market a love song. In a film that has NO romance in it.
I'm someone who isn't super interested in romance in stories, but that doesn't mean I hate it or complain about it. Hpwever there are some romance that aren't done well that makes some people hate it. But if a romance is genuinely well-written, then it can catch the attention of audience and make them love it.
I think the problem, for me, with romance nowadays is how unequal the footing is for the characters. Take Anna and Kristoff, in Frozen 2, Kristoff wasn't as involved and had no real rold other than being the love interest who wants to marry Anna. I was sad and disappointed that they put him down like that and wished he had a better role other than being JUST the love interest.
Actually, that's another problem. Making one of them just the love ingerest, nothing else. Personally, I hate it when love stories have one of them be ONLY the love interest and no other character trait. I don't know if people feel the same way, but I hate that kind of writing. If there is romance, I want BOTH of them to contribute and have a HEALTHY relationship inside and outside their own.
I totally agree! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
The whole concept that a woman doesn't need a man is ridiculous and insulting in general. Because it presumes that every woman who wants to be with a man has somehow lost a certain amount of autonomy. The truth is that men and women need each other. We have always needed each other, and that's a good thing. It brings us together.
We really don’t need each other though, especially not in this day and age. Society has shunned men, it’s about time for men to back out of society and the jobs that make it function and let women take control of it.
Well, yes and no. You xan need somebody in a codeoendent, dehumanizing way. Or you can need them in an interdependent way, where its less than a need and more of a want.
We need other guman being in life. But how they come and go? Its a mystery.
Well not everyone needs to be in a straight relationship if that's what's being implied here, but being in one doesn't automatically lessen a person's autonomy that's true. A woman doesn't need a man to live a fulfilling life but if she has a man she wants to spend her life with that's great
Its even more ridiculous when they say that a man does not need a woman. Everyone needs love. I mean, sure, romance does not need to be a solution to every problem, but it is not something to ignore. In real life, romance happens almost every day
We need to fight back against Disney's (and Hollywood's) toxic narrative that feminism through the lens of capitalism is objective truth and morally good. Self sufficiency isn't a virtue when society/economy is functioning in a healthy way, which it currently isn't.
Saying this as a hopeless romantic I agree not every story needs romance and sometimes romance is sticked where it doesn’t belong but to say romance in general diminishes a story is just untrue. It can create great characters work and development if done well. Beauty and the Beast and Tangled are examples from Disney where it’s done well. And Wish missed a lot of potential cutting the Starboy love interest.
That's what I'm saying!!
Romantic relationships are not a beautiful thing. Romance causes a lot of problems in this world. Life is a lot better without romance than it is with it. Romantic love is not special at all, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real.
I don't know why women would still want to be in a romantic relationship when studies prove single women are the happiest demographic. Women are the happiest when single and focused on themselves.
Multiple studies have shown that women live happier and healthier lives being single then being married.
Statistically speaking, women are happiest when single. Also, women can have friends and biological family that they share a life with. We as humans need the presence of other humans in our lives yes. But we can live alone. We don’t need romantic relationships to survive. We do need love and support, but it can be from friends and family. It does not need to be from a romantic partner.
Romantic relationships are not a beautiful thing. Romance causes a lot of problems in this world. Life is a lot better without romance than it is with it. Romantic love is not special at all, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real.
I don't know why women would still want to be in a romantic relationship when studies prove single women are the happiest demographic. Women are the happiest when single and focused on themselves. Multiple studies have shown that women live happier and healthier lives being single then being married.
Statistically speaking, women are happiest when single. Also, women can have friends and biological family that they share a life with. We as humans need the presence of other humans in our lives yes. But we can live alone. We don’t need romantic relationships to survive. We do need love and support, but it can be from friends and family. It does not need to be from a romantic partner.
I honestly hate love songs and love stories, but Disney one’s just hit different because of how adorable they are.
Yeah I think if they are written well they can be great!
Nah man, it's good stories they're allergic to tell.
😂😂😂
If the folks Disney watched even one movie by Hayao Miyazaki, they would know that writing strong independent women in romantic relationships is possible! (I say this because they literally had the license for most of his movies for several years. Did no one even watch them??)
That’s one of the reasons I liked Elemental so much - Disney and other animation studios have shied away from romance so much that Pixar finally said “fine, WE’LL do it”
One of the most memorable and seriously quirky, but adorable Disney couple I remember so well, is Captain Amelia and Doctor Doppler from Treasure Planet.
It’s such a rare and unique pairing for me to see back in the day. Two aliens of different species. Amelia is obviously intelligent, cunning, effective. But with a strict and good moral compass. While Doppler is also smart and intelligent, but he comes off as a bumbling dork in a good way. And if you watch the movie as it goes on, you can actual see physical evidence of Amelia falling a bit in love every time Doppler does something.
It seemed so unlikely that these two would end up together, but they did. And it worked so well! One of the reasons why I also love Milo and Kida.
While romance for these couples are of course exaggerated for the sake of fiction. They both feel so mature about it, while balancing out with humour. It didn’t feel like the ‘cutesey dorky comedic’ trope I’ve seen all the time with Disney couples these days. They feel a bit more real and fleshed out.
That’s an awesome example!!!
Actually, it is believed that Doppler and Amelia are the same spieces where all the men are dogs and all the women are cats.
I'm sure they could get more audiences making a romantic movie. I say this cause the only reason I watched elemental was because of the romance. Seeing not only two characters come together really engaging, but seeing them develop together is so heartwarming. I miss Disney couples.
Amen. 🙏
tbh that's the whole reason why i never ended up enjoying stuff like that. i hate romance and never even felt it myself. i end up having nothing to relate to and a very little amount of no romance books or movies that'll actually interest me and tell a good story...
but that's just my opinion.
Princess and the Frog had one of the best romantic love stories, and that was released in 2009.
To see how far Disney has fallen since, is just crazy and really sad.
I'll never forgive them for taking Starboy from us
Snow Withe wasn't that helpless before she was in a magical coma for a hole year
If you don't belive me please watch the video: "Why Snow Withe is still the strongest Disney Princess"
From the Chanel There will be Fudd
It's spelled "White"
@@akl2k7 Sorry English isn't my first language
say what you will about sleeping beauty but depicting Snow White as just a damsel in distress is debatable. Considerings he survives assassination attempts and wonder in the woods on her own. the prince barely had any screen time.
Yeah, most of the older movies were actually good for young girls yet so many people ignore the beginnings of those movies and say they are harmful. A lot of them have to do with getting out of bad home lives which is hard to do on your own anyway and usually someone from the outside is what makes a person consider they deserve better than what they currently have.
A lot of people who complain about the older movies also seem like they either forgot the plot or never saw the whole movie they're talking about and are just jumping on a trend.
its simple. Authentic love is a natural part of human existence when its executed right...and when both partners are written equally with a desire to love each other.
I don't think the romantic type of love is special, and I think that the romantic type of love isn't real. More than half of romantic couples either break up with each other or divorce each other. I think humans should just ditch concepts like dating, marriage, and pair bonding. I feel like this world would be a much better place without romance than it is with it.
In my opinion, romantic love should not be on the highest pedestal. In my opinion, parents and siblings' family love is the strongest. Family knows who you are. Romance is fake for lots of people, put on a false persona and romance on most parts gets ugly real fast. For the reality of romance is no Disney love story.
Parents and siblings' family love is one of the strongest types of love there is. If romantic love is actually real, it would be one of the weakest types of love there is. Romantic relationships are overrated and are just a waste of time. People should avoid being a romantic relationship.
if disney is so afraid of love story because they think people will see it as damsel in distress type then they should take a page out of dreamworks. Their love storie are not center pieces but just add up to relationships and charachters, the protagonist still does their thing but are supported by their love interest. Megamind, shrek, puss in boots, madagascar etc. people still love romance stories if you write them good and wish could have been such a good movie
And how to train you dragon!
Honestly think hiccup and astrid are one of the best animated couples
Eh, Disney had plenty of movies with romance in them long after they stopped having damsels in distress.
Meanwhile Pixar made a movie focused on romance - Elemental - for the first time (that is not just a B plot, like in cars, for example) and it was a huge success. It did not make them feel weak and it was important for the plot that they fell in love. It doesn't make sense for Disney to throw those plots in the garbage as if romance was bad. And whilst it would be horrible if Encanto had a romantic plot line for Mirabel (because it doesn't make sense and would add nothing to the story), there are movies like wish that you can clearly see could be so much better and would make sense with a love interest.
👆
I found it so unfair how people think Love = weakness, EVERYBODY knows that loving the right person makes you the strongest and most independent, I'm sick of the narrative that men and women are an "obstacle" to eachother, even if we were to get queer relationships, love should ALWAYS be glorified and celebrated, love is beautiful ❤
Tiana and Naveen are one of my favorite couples in all of media, it's because they're both flawed characters who teach each other in the process of falling in love, and ultimately become fuller, better people for it. Tiana is a workaholic, has isolated herself from most of her friends, and thinks that it's all meaningless unless she gets the restaurant her father always wanted.
Naveen is a spoiled, hedonistic, lazy man who only wants to marry so he can have enough money to maintain his very self centered lifestyle. Tiana teaches Naveen the importance of diligence and self reliance. He learns that all of the frivolity and hedonism is meaningless next to commitment, love, and family. Naveen teaches Tiana to relax and enjoy life, and that your dream doesn't always come true the exact way you expected. She learns what's the most important of all, love.
I think we as a society have a slightly warped view of what love IS. It's not just this fluffy feeling in your chest or being physically attracted to someone. Love is a choice you make. Every day you choose to love someone and put their needs above your own. It's compromise. It's caring for the other person as if you are one body. It's self sacrifice. It's commitment. It's humility. It's not always going to come naturally, that's why you CHOOSE it. You choose it because it is right, and it actively makes you a BETTER person by doing the right, yet more difficult thing. But when every character is perfect from the beginning, then there's no room to grow.
Moana's biggest character flaw is that she can't be herself because of her responsibilities. Elsa's biggest hurdle is that she's too awesome and the world can't handle it. Asha isn't ever portrayed to be in the wrong in her movie. This doesn't NECESSARILY make a character bad, (I adore Moana, though the other two I find horribly boring) But their character flaws/challenges don't require them to become better people, they rely on changing the world to fit THEM. (This is also a thing in the earliest Disney movies, Aurora, Cinderella and Snow White are very simple characters that don't have flaws, but notice they're actually not really the driving forces of the plot, it's mostly the dwarves, mice, and fairies that make things happen).
While older Disney movies do kind of have the trend of perfect female protagonists who don't really have character flaws, they are less Ariel is overly naïve and shortsighted (this character flaw isn't actually addressed very much in the movie because she can't speak). Mulan jumps in way over her head joining the army, and has to use her mind/hard work to stay on pace with her fellow soldiers. Rapunzel is meek and Naïve, but learns to both trust people, and stand up for herself. Anna has straight up abandonment issues and separation anxiety. Belle is very stubborn and closed off to the beast (understandably) and has to humble herself a bit, showing him gratitude for saving her from the wolves and making the first step in making amends.
Personally, I want to see more stories that involve couples that are already together. Seeing people fall in love is nice and all, but I want to see what it's like AFTER the fun, celebratory parts are over. What goes into making a relationship work? How do they treat each other when the butterflies are gone and maybe things get a little messy? That kind of love is less exciting, but it's the most beautiful of all because it lasts, and is built on something stronger than our wishy washy emotions.
Great post. I agree with pretty much everything. Although I would add that Elsa could've been a better character if the Frozen movies had ever bothered to address her flaws (like her selfish dereliction of duty) and crippling anxiety instead of hand-waving them away. Her problems literally get "resolved" in a matter of seconds and she repeats the same mistakes (i.e. pushing people away) in the sequel without any repercussions. She didn't learn anything. Those two movies in general are the definition of wasted potential; they have a lot of weak writing, especially where it pertains to the silly and unnecessary Hans twist. I also found it irksome how Anna is constantly being validated without really having to work for anything and the "romance" between her and Kristoff is one of the weakest I've seen. These characters could be very interesting in the hands of a competent writer.
I also really like your point about Belle, since she's my favorite of the princesses and I've previously struggled to articulate why, especially when people seem to enjoy badmouthing her-sometimes even for opposite reasons. Belle is very kind and compassionate, but that doesn't mean she's some flawless paragon. Likewise, she's kind of sassy behind closed doors, but that doesn't mean she's awful or conceited. She still feels like she could be a real person to me.
Edited for missing letter.
@@AnimaVox_ I completely agree!! I REALLY wish Elsa was a stronger character. It's kind of insane how people made a point of saying "She's Disney's first QUEEN, not a princess!" As if that has literally any bearing on her character whatsoever. Does she ever once talk about what it means to be a ruler? About the responsibility she has to her people? It's absolutely true that Elsa did not ask for her powers, and she suffered greatly in her childhood for them. But, this does NOT excuse the fact that she abandons an entire nation and almost kills everyone in the process. She doesn't even try to fix any of the problems she causes but it all just kind of works out so there are ZERO repercussions.
Then, in Frozen 2, she is willing to up and abandon her family, friends, and an entire kingdom that's RELYING on her because she wants to go on an adventure? It'd be one thing if the story commented on this and portrayed it as a bad thing, or something she need to overcome/learn from, but it doesn't. Elsa is technically a queen so she can have the empowered girlboss box checked off, but she acts like a princess in every other way and the story rewards her for it. She's such a nothing character, the only growth she goes through is from being quiet and scared of her power to being confident. She doesn't grow up and that's because the nature of the story dictates that all of her problems stem from other people, not personal flaws she herself has to overcome or wrestle with.
I absolutely LOVE Belle. She is one of those characters who at first glance comes off as another perfect character with no flaws but she does have a few that make her story more interesting. She is an intelligent woman with an active imagination and is the black sheep of her village, she's kind, beautiful, etc. BUT, she is stubborn with a bit of a hotheaded streak in her (and I always got the feeling she may have looked down on some of the townspeople for being less smart than she is). She is just as guilty of judging the beast by his appearance as HE was in the opening of the movie! (again, it's understandable why she would feel that way but just cause something is understandable doesn't mean it's not a character flaw). And she has to make the first step when it comes to their love story by being humble and thanking Beast for saving her when they'd just been fighting, and by the end of the movie she sees him for who he is, not how he looks on the outside.
The difference in the quality of these heroines is absolutely massive. Elsa really desperately needs any time to focus on her personal flaws that aren't "she's too awesome and people just aren't ready for that yet". Frozen 2 is ALL about her but by the end of the movie I feel like we've learned absolutely nothing and she's just as bland-mary-sue-ish as she always has been. Really disappointing.
@@Bethany38326 Anna has a similar problem in that the films often don't treat her flaws like flaws. She consistently and impulsively rushes into danger and we're just supposed to accept that it's heroic instead of reckless and irresponsible. It's like they're afraid of not affirming their heroines' faults out of some misguided fear of being seen as sexist. 🙄
Writing Elsa should've been a slam-dunk-I mean, it's so _obvious_ what the natural progression of her arc should be! Same goes for Anna and Hans-who should've never been shoe-horned as the villain because the way they tried to force him into that role was super contrived and made no sense. Heck, same goes for Kristoff too, since he's barely even a character. It's just so... boring. I also hate how the King and Queen's bad parenting is never called out and how they're portrayed as heroes in the sequel. Like, they played a _major_ role in why their daughter was so traumatized because of how poorly they handled the incident, teaching her to repress her emotions. Why wasn't this the primary focus of the movie, again? It's much more interesting to explore than that whole 'love is a superpower!' nonsense they did. Would've at least made for something more unique. 🤷
I look at the Disney characters of old, and sure, some of them may seem more simple, but what matters is that they're written well. Simplicity is fine so long as the story is well told. That's what fairytales are. There's no use injecting half-measured complexity, especially if you're not going to give any sensible and satisfying resolution. Beauty and the Beast pulled off writing complex characters in a way that was both subtle and believable: Gaston starts off as a conceited, yet admittedly charismatic man, whose self-aggrandizement quickly morphs into something far more sinister and controlling because his ego won't allow him to take a loss with grace-unlike Belle, who learns that pride gets her no where. Beast's arc is the opposite of Gaston's: he learns to let go of his desire to control others and relinquishes the haughtiness that landed him in the curse to begin with. That's what makes Beast and Belle virtuous. I swear, that movie is still the gold standard for me regarding Disney princess stories.
While writing quality has taken a sharp nosedive in recent time, I'd argue that the seeds for all this bad storytelling were planted years ago with movies like Frozen. Chris Buck has one previous success under his belt with Surf's Up, but if I recall correctly, most of Jennifer Lee's projects have been flops riddled with terrible writing-and what's worse is that she's now part of the leadership at WDAS! 🤦 I can't think of a more blatant example of failing upward. It doesn't help that people keep rewarding media like Frozen and Wreck-It-Ralph 2 with their money. Hopefully, that's changing, if Wish is anything to go by.
I hate to sound like some old grump, but they _really_ don't make them like they used to. And that's not the nostalgia talking, I'm being purely analytical here.
Disney's problem is they're chasing temporary popularity instead of trying for something timeless. And what frustrates me is they can still get it right (Encanto proved that much), but it's feeling more like one or two people desperately trying to keep the others in check.
It's like they think you can't want to be in a happy relationship AND want other things at the same time. Who said we had to sacrifice love to achieve the things we want? Tangled, Princess and the frog and the original Frozen show that you don't need to abandon things to find love. It's sad we haven't had a movie like that for a LONG time.
I don't think romantic love is real or special, and I think romantic relationships are a bad thing. More than half of romantic relationships end in a breakup/divorce. I think humans should just ditch concepts like dating, marriage, and pair bonding. I feel like this world would be a much better place without romance than it is with it. Romance seems like an ugly thing.
It does seem that nearly all fathers and brothers are hoping that their daughters and sisters never date or get married and remain single for their whole life. Romantic relationships seem like a bad thing since there is a lot of dangers when it comes to them.
The overprotective father/brother thing is proof that romantic relationships are a bad thing, and this world would be a much better place without them.
If someday that the human race ditches the concept of romance and romantic relationships, and got rid of stuff like dating and marriage, fathers and brothers would be happy about it since they wouldn't ever have to worry about their daughters and sisters ever dating if that ever happened.
@searain1573 I think with an attitude like that you need some serious therapy. By your own logic, friendships are bad, parental relationships are bad, all kind of relationships are bad: because they come to an end. Because they can end in resentment. But these endings are what build character. Yes, even romantic relationships. By your own logic, humans should live in complete isolation, but if you are choosing to bias your logic only toward romantic relationships, youre cnot being as logical as you think you are and instead are just subconsciously expressing your own resentment and insecurities.
The modern romantic love scene is terrible, I agree. But when we ask why, the root cause isn't because romance is a bad thing. It's because of many significant factors in our world that we struggle to change. But yes... I recommend getting therapy
@@TryinBin8889 There are a lot more risks and dangers to romantic relationships than they are to platonic relationships. Why do you think most fathers and brothers don't act the same way towards their daughter's or sister's platonic male friends as they do towards a potential boyfriend? It's because they know there's a much higher chance someone could potentially get hurt in a romantic relationship compared to a platonic relationship.
Romantic partners have greater risk of hurting you more than a friend and in my opinion, friends are more trustworthy than lovers. Everyone needs a best friend for times in life and you can trust them more like they always got your back. Plus, then you have a less chance of getting your heart broken.
@searain1573 dodging my statements, literally not even responding at all to what I wrote, and critiques with really fragile generalisations that only work in very very specific situations... no wonder you're so immature and full of resentment. Seriously. Therapy.
I was 6 years old when "The Little Mermaid" came out in theaters. I was 14, nearly 15 when "Tarzan" came out. I was a child/pre-teen/early teen throughout the Disney Renaissance. Hit after hit. It was a great time to be a kid. The list goes from the beginning of the renaissance through the end of the 90s: The Little Mermaid, The Rescuers Down Under, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, The Lion King, Pocahontas, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules, Mulan, and Tarzan. You can count Fantasia 2000, but that was mid-December 1999. You also had Toy Story, A Bug's Life, and Toy Story 2 from Pixar. The Disney television animation studio did A Goofy Movie. You had amazing live action children's films like Air Bud, Homeward Bound, The Mighty Ducks, Honey I Shrunk the Kids. So many really good movies. The animated movies, kids still enjoy.
I love the love stories. I'm not a kid anymore, so I don't need Disney to provide movies for me, but I like the dated gender roles because it's based on biology. Women actually like men protecting them. Men like being heroes. Cinderella isn't a damsel in distress rescued by the prince. Technically, the Fairy Godmother and mice helped her more than the prince. Sleeping Beauty, there's no choice in the fairy tale. She needs the prince. Snow White is also one who needs the prince. But if you look at those three characters, they aren't helpless. Snow White, once she finds the dwarfs' cottage, settles into a new lifestyle without much complaint about her old one. She doesn't demand that her stepmother be brought to justice, she doesn't cry over her situation every day, she rolls up her sleeves and helps the dwarfs. Cinderella has a terrible situation, but the love she has for her dead father motivates her to keep pushing forward in life including caring for the house she grew up in and helping the animals. She does get upset about not being able to go to the ball, but she never expected to dance with the prince. She just wanted to have a night of escape. Her goodness is rewarded by the Fairy Godmother. She doesn't even realize she has been dancing with the prince. He's too stupid to even tell the Grand Duke what she looks like (serious plot hole; most adaptations make it a masquerade for a reason). He doesn't even take the shoe around himself (a lot of versions, he does). She is even the one who pulls out that second slipper after the stepmother tried to sabotage her (not to mention she got the help from her friends). Aurora was also shown to have a personality. She knew the fairies were planning a party for her, so she made sure to be out so as to ruin the surprise. That's mature and kind. She doesn't know the prince is one she dances with. Yeah, she's barely in the movie. Fair, but she's barely in the fairy tale. That is a fairy tale driven by the prince. That's the nature of Sleeping Beauty. It's more the prince's role than hers. Even though he barely talks in the movie, he's the most classic Disney prince and a stand-up guy. He told his father he wasn't marrying the princess because he fell in love with the peasant girl and kept his promise to go back to her. He had to face a gigantic dragon to rescue her. He was chained up at one point. I'm a big fan of Prince Phillip. Not to mention that is beautifully animated piece of art. It's such a gorgeous movie.
Disney needs to look at traditional storytelling and quit worrying about the perpetually online judges. You please the audience. They aren't the audience. Most are bitter people with bitter hearts who hate happiness. The traditional stories are adventure stories and heterosexual love stories. Even better if you can marry those types of stories. Tarzan is an excellent example of being able to do that since it does have a love story in the books. Disney nearly flawlessly took that first book and did a phenomenal job of adapting it and updating it by fixing some...questionable parts (it was a book of its time period; I still like the book, I hope to one day read all of them, but I only have the first book, the second book, and the fifth book). I was especially surprised with their television animated series called "The Legend of Tarzan." I used to record it off television every day while I was in high school and watch it later. They brought in so much lore from the book series including Opar. It was amazing. Nearly every character in that series was from the books (I may not have all the books, but I've read some online for free).
Anyway, they could do better, but they listen to the wrong people. They are creatively bankrupt and pushed talent out the door (John Lasseter) because they listened to the wrong people. If a competing studio was smart, they would make a traditional Disney-style princess movie with a love story. Don Bluth for Fox did their first animated movie, Anastasia. Very Disney-like movie. That's why it was successful (it was also a 90s animated movie). Don Bluth owned 80s animation, and he did try a Disney fairy tale romance from his studio in the mid-90s as well (Thumbelina). Good movie, not great. Same voice actress for Thumbelina did Ariel's voice, which is interesting. Another studio in the 90s did the Swan Princess, again, a Disney-type animated romance. Everyone wanted to be Disney back then. Then, Dreamworks did Shrek to kind of poke fun at Disney, but they did a romance too.
Something I wish people would understand is that it’s not about needing, it’s about wanting. I don’t need a man, that’s true, but I want one.
People need to learn that love doesn’t make you weak.
I have an idea for a happier version of Romeo & Juliet they can do!
2:57 I remember seeing 'Moana' and realizing that the big guy was the protagonist's brother (and not love interest) and thinking, "Well, that's different for a Disney movie!" It didn't occur to me they'd be giving up on love stories permanently!
New Disney Characters on valentines day be like: We will be in our bedrooms, making no noise and pretending we don't exist.
Sounds more like a "Harry Potter" reference. But I do get what you mean.
Can we stop labeling Snowhite, Cinderella and Aurora as "some helpless damsels" They're between the ages of 14-17, for god sake and all alone in the world and two of their only family are an abusive household WHO WANTS TO KILL THEM!!! Im tired of hearing this about them because not everyone needs to be this badass feminist who "doesn't need a man" and hates anything feminine just to be strong. By saying that it implies that people can only be strong if they're manly or a man and completely contridicts the "I don't need a man to rescue me" line. As a very feminine gay boy I held these three really close to me because they taught me that you need to use both your femininity and masculinity to be strong like Mulan did. So hearing people duking them because their more femme than other princesses makes me dissapointed in society because they didn't even watch these characters right.
Instead of just crying and "waiting to be rescued" for the whole movie like alot of people say they gain the trust from animals and people around them with their kindness and work for what they want in life. Cinderella and Aurora even playfully sasses their family, Snowhite jokes with the dwarfs. Even when people say "people just give them everything" thats not true. The dwarves don't just let snowhite live in the cottage with them because "she's pretty". That might be the case but she also earns it by cleaning and helping the dwarves improve themselves. She as well as Cinderella asserts themselves and won't give up helping people around them because they care and are genuinely good people. And most of them never even mention the prince besides two songs, Two Songs and a wish then the rest of the movie it's survival. Snowhite wants to belong somewhere, Cinderella wants a break from work, Sleeping beauty wants a prince but that's okay. It's okay to long for love. Love doesn't make you weak. Not to mention the Princess (the "strong male characters") aren't even really a character besides Phillip. Even then, they more represent the reward and good things you'll get in life if you're not an asshole like the step family or the evil fairy and queen. Even the kiss scene (what most people go to immediately) isn't some allegory that "girls need a man to save them" but sometimes you just can't always do everything yourself, and you need to learn that it's okay to ask for help in life. Especially in the case of Snow and Aurora BECAUSE THEY'RE IN A FLIPPIN COMA!!!
If they were written how people say they "needed to be written" Snowhite would've died by the huntsman because she's so bratty, or was kicked out by the dwarfs because she just waltzed in. Cinderella would've been left on the streets because of her attitude and was rightfully punished from the ball. And sleeping beauty and snowhite WOULD HAVE STILL BEEN IN A COMA!!
Even if you don't see them the way I do people need to stop being so negative and looking for trouble everywhere. It's victim blaming not pointing out "helpless female characters".
My answer before the video starts: Because a surprisingly high number of Millenials who grew up with Disney in the 90s kept going on and on about how tired they were of traditional Disney romance stories in the 2010's. For some reason, Disney hasn't got its head around the fact that trends happen and things go in and out of style and perhaps there's a new generation/people who used to think that who now wouldn't mind a proper romance story in Disney here or there again.
Edit after I watched the video: Ah, yep, pretty much hit the nail on the head.
I swear the people complaining about that stuff must've been disappointed about their own life and blamed their unhappiness on movies giving them "unrealistic expectations". My mom was like that for a while and would not let me watch perfectly normal movies just based on the cover art.
Disney saw that trend and thought they had to actually cater to those people and here we are. It's always miserable people complaining about a nice fantasy/fiction.
@@iceprism367 Oh goodness! Sorry that you didn't get to watch certain movies when you were younger just because of the cover art. Have you been able to watch some of those movies recently? I do completely get where you're coming from, I do remember myself, as an autistic girl, modelling at least some of my behaviours on what I saw in Disney princess movies. I had a crush on a boy and I tried to give him flowers and be all cutesy with him like, well, I saw in Disney films. I was 9, I might add. He had absolutely no interest in me and the whole thing became a bit embarrassing, but I've completely moved on from that luckily. However, I would also argue that the formula for (almost) all main female characters to end up with a love interest was becoming a bit stale by that point, so I can understand at least some of the criticism, but I just also wish that things had been more balanced on *both* sides.
@@Enirahtak8 You don't need to pity me. I was only giving an example of what type of person wants to govern fictional content. My mom genuinely thought I would be dumb enough to think fairies were real if I watched a movie like Tinkerbell and used to black out lines in children's books in case they would "confuse" me. I've come to terms with the fact that she is not the brightest person in the world.
The truth is I've never really been interested in romance myself irl (I'm probably ace), but I always loved the og Disney movies because romance was not truly the goal and the more I grow up the more I see that and think they were way better than what is currently being made. Those movies are about more than just romance, they are about two people caring about eachother enough to help eachother out of bad family lives or mindsets and ALSO falling in love. The people calling them bad DO NOT understand how bad some of those situations could be and that you need someone to help you sometimes. Not ALL stories need romance, but good romance is necessary in others and Disney is now completely avoiding something they built their company on. Even in the stories that previously featured romance such as Frozen it's been completely sidelined as a concept. I will never believe that simply writing something like *love* can go out of style. Love is not a trend and fiction should be giving kids hope, not shutting their imaginations down from childhood. I rejected romance stories for a while as a kid because of my mother (she watches the most boring Hallmark romance stuff which destroyed my view of those types of stories), but now I see that good romances are needed just as much as any other type of story because now they have basically disappeared in the west and they CAN be done well. Disney was never even my favorite franchise as a kid, Lego series were (surprisingly had better romance sometimes), but I have to say Disney's older movies had something necessarily human to them that they are missing now. There are also so many better stories in various anime whether they include romance or not so Disney is failing in even writing non-romance anyway.
Great video. I at first appreciated the lack of romance in newer Disney movies (being asexual/aromantic myself), but I do think Disney's animated movies would be better now if they at least had some romance. I think for example Tangled (as you bring up) is quite perfect and that is one movie with a lot of romance that I still related a lot to because both Rapunzel and Flynn/Eugene was such great characters that both had their own arc in the story and because it delivered on so many other points (great villain, great songs, interesting story, beautiful animation). And with Dreamworks they had Puss in Boots 2: The Last Wish that focused on so many other things more than the romance, but still had an interesting love story as a part of everything and that movie is brilliant in every way. I think those movies was part of showing me that while it can be interesting enough to have some movies that don't focus on romance at all or in a really small extent (Encanto as a great example) and I do appreciate how some characters have no romance focus (I will be disappointed if Elsa gets a romance in Frozen 3, because I've always read her as ace like me), I also really love a romance when the characters has enough agency to be interesting in themselves, not just as the love object, and when the movie also deliveres on having a great story, brilliant music, wonderful animation so that romance is one reason the movie is great and not the only reason.
I also think this video also made it clear for me that the lack of romance-trend in newer Disney movies is part of a bigger issue and that is lack of character agency. Because Encanto was an exception, but most of Disney's newer animated movies haven't really been that good and while that isn't necessarily because they've lacked romance, I also think having a love story would have helped the movie in having an agency because it gives a character something to fight for. With Asha in Wish she was so boring because what she sings of in her "I Want"-song is "wanting something more for us than this", not defining specifically what that something is. As we learn from my favorite musical Into the Woods, a very important part of making a story brilliant is making characters that all have something they wish for, something that's that one thing they want more than anything and I think the lack of romance is one of many reasons why newer Disney movies seem generic and uninteresting, because that specific thing a character want more than anything isn't established, so the character is just a character and therefore forgettable.
Fantastic comment! Thanks for sharing your perspective!!!
I'm Aro/Ace but I dont really see the point of a *romantic* arc for the female character. If you remember the old movies, there was only a female part there so the guy had someone to distract him from what he was supposed to be doing in the film or to redeem him if he was going down a bad path. What kind of message was that sending to young girls? That you only exist to make a guy look good? Pah. Then movies started making their females stronger and independant. Well guess what happens when you do that? They no longer NEED a partner in their life because they can do all the heavy lifting that that role had in films, on their own. Im not saying dont have friends or family but nowadays, it feels like the romance subplot has been done to death and its only hetro. How many Disney movies had gay or bi subplots? Probably not very many. Romance in movies is as unrealistic as it is in real life because lets be honest, most guys(not sure how it works in gay relationships) only buy the flowers and the chocolates and the booze coz they think they're gonna have sex that night. Its a trick and a very old manipulation. As an Aro/Ace yourself, you should be as capable as I am, for seeing THROUGH the illusion to what it really is. A type of emotional blackmail and mind control.
The problem with Disney is that they became lazy.Nowdays I feel like they want the protagonist to be in a certain way only.
For exemple, in Frozen, Anna and Elsa had a great character development I think. Anna found the love she wanted, became Queen of her country, saved her country and Elsa finally found herself in the end.
Another great exemple is Moana. She didn't have any love story but she showed us how she followed her dreams and saved her poeple thanks to it.
But in Wish, Asha or whatever her name is, doesn't have a personality and acts like an impatient brat all along. Even my 7 years old niece hated it because the movie's story was confusing.
Disney needs to go back like they were before and show us movies with beatyful stories.
They showed us many times that a person doesn't NEED a lover to depend on but that there is nothing wrong with finding it because love can be beautiful of you WANT to find it, and that's what allows a protagonist to have their own personality and character development.
So instead of shaming love stories, they better learn how to write an original story again.
So I have to say something about what we perceive as 'strong' women now a days.
Most people love to overlook the fact that kindness, patience, forgiveness and understanding are very good traits to have in -- not just women, but men too -- people overall, especially since these are truly strong traits.
People only thing anymore of the physical 'I don't need help' sort of strength, which while some can get away with... it's also very disingenuous. Women are known to be the weaker sex (I can say this as I have the uterus to prove it), so their strengths lean more to their mental acuity, their clever natures, to their willingness to help others.
It also pisses me off because the classic Princesses (Snow White, Aurora, Cinderella) all have their different strengths that most would not perceive.
Snow White: No matter how many times the Evil Queen sought to kill her, she showed a patience, listened to those around her, and acted accordingly.
Aurora (Princess Rose): A naivety that comes from being raised by literal fairies, but she grows up quick once she sees Prince Philip, and learns what love is. Aurora I think is my favorite character because this shows young girls how to grow up without losing certain traits from being a girl. She gets cursed yes, but it was a compulsion spell that made her, not her own will. Take that into acocunt.
Cinderella: .... No matter what her step-family threw at her in a home her own father had built, she did not yell, kick, scream, demean, or do anything against them until very late in the movie, when she was locked away. Yeah they treated her like shit, but she took it in stride, and was, for the most part just waiting to find a way to leave the home without doing anything drastic. It was her step-mother destroying her chances to go to the ball that really set their downfall in motion, the break-down of everything. Her jealousy as well as that of the step daughters. Hubris, if you will. And in the live action remake? She didn't even tell them to go fuck themselves like I would have. She said 'I forgive you'. And that makes her a much stronger person than me, because I hold grudges worse than a fairy.
Even Ariel and Belle can be considered 'damsels'. They aren't though because while they don't actively fight, it's more obvious where their strengths are compared to the classic princesses.
Love stories... Well. We all know how much Wish failed. That is all.
Sorry but for me live action Cinderella was much weaker and way more passive. No really I am more pissed off with how she just puts up with abuse from stepfamily and never stands up for herself instead she just takes it remains always positive that actually sends a very toxic and dangerous message to abuse victims in general
@@Rachet87-yp7qq Even the original Cinderella did, that's the thing. Live Action represents a LOT of people who truly live in those states of being.
Why is Disney force feeding us what they say we "should" want and not what we actually want?? I miss Classic Disney 😥
Modern Disney doesn't know what love is. I'd argue that 90s Disney knew what love was more than modern Disney
Disney is criticised when they're telling love stories, they're criticised when they're not telling love stories... If I were them I wouldn't know what to do either.
That’s fair.
Having a bit of variety between their stories should have been the solution, but Disney has historically had a tendency to stick to trends and formulas.
The two eras when they were the most experimental (1977-1988 and 2000-2008) are also seen as two nadirs in the company's history, so I don't blame them.
And when you find something that the viewers liked, it is natural that you want to give them more of that.
But then, you will see the caustic critics rip you apart and accuse you of doing the same thing over and over instead...
It's important to Disney to relearn of their own identity. What type of image they want to keep and stick to it. A studio that produced flashy escapism of fantasy, magic, and, romance and princess? Then be one.
They also need to choose one group audiences they want to targeted. The adult woman feminist who dislike romance? Or the young 18ish tumblr girl who down bad for angst and romance?
Pick one.
If you look at DreamWorks, they always has this charismatic larger than life/overconfident villain, Queen Nerissa, Lord Farquaad, Jack Horner, Fairy Godmother, Megamind/Metromind (I know both arent a villain), etc..
Disney in other hand, removing Star Boy because he was too similar with the Genie. Look at DreamWorks, Disney. They did the same archetype over and over, but nobody complaining to the point of hating it. It's because they're sincere, they are sincere to do what they love (charismatic overconfident larger than life character), instead trying to be something they're not.
@@valhatan3907 I don't think you necessarily need your own style for EVERYTHING because if there's anything superhero movies taught us it's that every character has their own mood and they can't all have the same funny kid-friendly movies, some are dark and some are fun and some are for adults and some are for kids. You can't always have the same style for everything and having different stories is a good thing not bad but these stories need to be good.
Love stories are kind of a staple of Disney films. Disney kind of shed off a portion of it’s identity by no longer making love stories.
Disney forgot about the Power Couple trope when they started saying "if a woman loves a man and cares about him she's not independent enough". Yeah.. okay. Some couples are stronger, better, more successful TOGETHER rather than APART.
Probably my all time favorite Power Couples are Gomez and Morticia Addams, Elastigirl and Mr. Incredible, and (hear me out guys) the Spy Kids' parents. I can't remember their names but they were badass in all films.
Anyway, the closest Disney ever got to a Power Couple dynamic I can think of was in Mulan. But even then it wasn't explored or fleshed out. (The second film doesn't count because that had a dumb plotline.)
Kim Possible and Ron Stoppable Oh and Don't forget the real villain couple Shego and Drakken from the early 2000's era of Disney themselves
@katiemaurer8807 Kim and Ron yeah... but I wouldn't count Shego and Drakken since they were more Boss/Employee than an actual couple. I know people shipped them but to me, they never got to that level
Men and women compliment one another. We enhance each other's strengths and cover each other's weaknesses. A woman being in a romantic relationship doesn't make her weak.
No villain songs and No love duetts for years. When Disney tried to make them again for Wish they became a weak villain song and not a love duett.
At all cost was ment to be a love song but in the finished movie it was… I don’t know what it is. A wierd duett between the hero and the villain . I don’t understand it.
The animatics fans have made with the demo are so good that if you want a Disney love duett then watch them.
Yeahhh at all costs is super strange to me. It still sounds like it was supposed to be a love song which makes it weird hearing King Magnifico sing it. It just doesn’t work for me.
I’m so tired of the “Selfless female protagonist” having no love interest. They can’t have both apparently, because loving someone is supposed to be weak? Great lesson Disney.
Princesses not needing a love to do their thing is cool, but like you said, you can have a daring and courageous woman AND a man by her side. They should just have a balance instead of killing it. This is what we know Disney for (also songs), there was no reason to stop.
I think it is the same problem as with female heroes in Marvel. They do all the wrong conclusions. What people want is intresting, diverse and fun stories, for characters to be alive and relatable, but Disney only tries to find a "matrix" of a new character and copypast it to every movie.
As a romance-enjoyer, I've grown so damn tired of the way people put down and scorn romance stories. ROMANCE IS PLOT! ROMANCE REQUIRES DEEP CHARACTER WORK!!! Romance stories are not "lesser" and if your romance deminishes the characters, you wrote a bad romance! It's not a reflection of romance being bad, its a reflection of bad writing!!!
Love this take 👆👆
Now this is a take I can get behind
Yup.
Frozen 2 actually had an outtake duet between Anna and Kristoff and it was really really sweet. In the song, Anna ended up being the one to propose and it felt less in your face than the proposal we got in the movie. I was honestly kinda sad that it didn't make it into the final cut.
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate how they’re *attempting* to make a point that people don’t NEED romantic relationships to be whole or happy. And that family and friends are just as important, if not more so. BUT… I love *love*. The fact Disney robbed us of Starboy and Asha hurts me on a deeper level than I expected it would. Why, Disney? Why? 😭💔
Honestly, I think in part is because the traditional Disney love story was essentially perfected with "Tangled".
I'm not even joking there. "Tangled" is hands down the best love story in the entire Disney canon. Not even "Beauty and the Beast" comes even close, and that's not a dig against it. Is just that "Tangled" is THAT good of a love story. Probably they saw that there was no way in hell they'd ever be able to top that one, so they decided to not bother and explore new territories. (OK, maybe I'm joking in this last part lol)
Hahaha great comment. Tangled is a fantastic movie!
I would say Disney did listen to criticism and did create more ''dominant'' female leads with Tangled, Princess and the Frog, and also Frozen. However, because of the new feminist movement, they completely scrapped princesses and love stories altogether after Frozen. For this, I blame stupid ideas and the internet.
It’s great seeing Disney princesses who don’t need men but I miss the stories when the prince would risk it all to be there for her and save her at the end. Just because a woman is a damsel in distress doesn’t mean she is any less powerful and independent. Sometimes we all get in trouble and need help
Fr
I think people impacted disney in a way that shut out the magic of story telling and the whismical love story book feel it used to have, but i guess the complained 😮💨
Disney used to be a place for magic and dreams, recently it feels like they’re leaning towards realism more than ever with their attempt to have the audience relate and see themselves in their movies, and then stick a happy ending at the end cuz why not. It’s not bad to want to connect with the audience, but to emphasize it so much that you lose the story and the magic therein? Not worth it in my humblest opinion.
I didn't realize it until it was pointed out, but now that you mention it, the last real romantic plot being Tangled is really sad. Because it's absolutely one of the best ones, if not the best one. Both characters are fleshed out and have their times to shine, and it's absolutely a shining example of what should be done, and how most things can work if you just write compelling characters and a good story. It's almost like they realized they peaked with Rapunzel and Flynn and just decided to not even try anymore.
Everyone seems to be allergic to telling love stories. The whole subject has become ringed around with paranoia and hair-trigger extremes. Any "love story" you see now is really about one person and their anxieties, not two people falling in love. Hell, the whole concept of "falling in love" has become anathema - how could you possibly "fall in love" without knowing every single detail of the other person's life and psyche and having it match YOUR expectations exactly? And "falling in love" quickly??? IT'S IMPOSSIBLE OMG !!!111!!!!! The whole thing has gotten ridiculous. Who even WANTS to hear a love story under such silly and self-sabotaging restraints? Jeez, how did the younger generation become so timid and fearful and Victorian? It's depressing beyond belief.
I’m not the romance type person se, but damn if I’m not a sucker for a good romance in my stories. They’re obviously not necessary for everything, but they’re a *vital* part of the human experience, and in many stories, is often one of the few moments of levity for characters facing hardships and is ultimately enriching from a narrative standpoint, assuming it’s well-written and believable. People are too bitter and cynical and it really shows in a lot of writing.
I miss the classic romance stories!
I honestly don't know what annoys me more, that people now believes that love/romance is bad and hate is good or that we are forced to relate to unlikable characters based on their appearances.
My personal theory is the reason why Disney is hates love stories and songs now is because of Buzzfeed. I think it's unfair to reject a good story that has romance elements for the sake of modern media. As someone who is a single bi, listening to love songs not only helps me grow, but also makes me feel something that's good inside...
Nice take on this video!❤😊
Not just buzzfeed, but feminist complaints and nitpicking of old films.
Wasn't this due to people whining for 20 years over how Disney should not be doing love stories because they are providing unrealistic standards for the audience? Can't complain when Disney is finally responding to the audience.
then we have Puss In Boots: The Last Wish where it had SO MUCH happening but it was all so good IN ONE MOVIE 😭
I never thought the day would come where I would miss the days when Disney would make love stories. I blame Bob Iger and the executives for this. Now I have to turn to fanfics and Wattpad stories to fill the void.
I just wanna comment on the princesses you mentioned being criticized... they were released in the 30s and 50s respectively and their primary character traits were in fact being soft spoken good homemakers and damsels in distress. Their female protagonists are literally products of their outdated time period, and EVEN THEN, we got Cinderella was also released in the 50s and she's not a damsel in distress. The fact that disney changed and evolved their princesses and gave us Ariel, Belle, Jasmine in the 90s is proof that Disney has evolved past this "only make them damsels" mindset. Do they need to be saved by their LIs at some point? SURE, but arguably you could also say that doesn't really apply to Belle, Eric saving Ariel was working off her saving him earlier, and Jasmine and Alladin were working in tandem to take down Jafar until Jafar trapped her in the hourglass. Even still, they had personalities, interests and ideas unique to themselves. They weren't reliant on their man to stand on their own.
That being said, it looked like they wanted to bring back the love story with Wish, but cut it... and it just... My main thing is why would you cut the love story but keep the love song?! It doesn't make sense!
This video was just me offering an explanation for why *Disney* moved away from love stories. I agree that they were products of their time and it’s important to consider that when looking at them today.
Exactly..the animated OG Cindy saved herself the end.
I think it has to do with our current political climate. Romance in general is at war with current culture because I feel nobody knows romance anymore. Rom Coms struggled in the 2010s for example. There’s a bit of a resurgence now, but it’s nowhere near the 90s and early 2000s. I also think that whether you agree or disagree with issues about different kinds of love besides a man and woman, that has also played a role in why romance films have declined. I’m not going into the political and religious implications because WWIII will begin but no one can deny the fact that has played a role in popular culture.
Disney went downhill since they started remaking everything from our childhood. Regardless if they have romance or not, MAKE A BETTER LIKEABLE STORY INSTEAD OF POLITICS
This is a great video! Great job man, you’ve earned a sub!!
Aww that’s so nice! Thank you 🙏
No prob!!
Just because you want more love stories, doesn't mean you want only love stories. I get it.
At this point, you should be the CEO of disney.
Also, why is Disney's first openly gay romance in an animated movie, Ethan and Diazo from "Strange World," just as downplayed? Diazo is in the film for about 2 minutes and is practically not a character. Roxanne, the love interest from "A Goofy Movie" is, like, a hundred times more developed as a character than Diazo.
I can’t help but feel like Disney wants the credit for putting diversity in their films without actually putting in the effort required to make it good representation.
Yup.
Society as a whole has shunned relationships in general, specifically relationships (to include friends and romance) with men. It might not sell at the box office, but it sure as hell is selling in real life. Statistics are getting worse and worse for relationships every year, there’s really no point in even trying anymore. Society is pushing for a relationshipless age, so be it if it kills off humanity.
We are transitioning away from the status quo that a woman has to be in a stable relationship to be classed as successful. You are just angry that you have to provide more to a relationship than "being the breadwinner". In the previous ages people would stay in relationships which weren't fulfilling at all more often because of the social stigma around leaving. Nowadays people are only staying when they are happy.
If you cannot provide the qualities another person needs for a fulfilling relationship then they are free to leave without being witch hunted. And so are you. At least it should be like this.
I do admit that i like that they are not overdoing the romance plots nowdays, in the end if the day there are way more Princess with love interest than single one. I like that Moana, Mirabel and Elsa don't have love interest because their stories don't need them and i like the message that you don't nessesary need to fall in love to be happy or that a female character needs a love interest to help her grow (not that the old Disney Princesses gave that impresion).
HOWEVER, i completely agree that a female character falling in love or having a love interest doesn't make her less strong and independent and l would love to see another classic Disney love story, specialy if it is similar to Eugene and Rapunzel, Hercules and Megara or Mulan and Shang.
Another thing i want to add in regards of wish since you showed the Star Boy concept: While i do agree with a lot of people that are saying that Star Boy should have been keep in the final movie and i consider that AshaxStarboy is an adorable ship, i don't really think that their romance would have made the movie better.
I could be wrong, but the concepts are just that, concepts and ideas that we don't know how if they would have been developed well in the final product and as sad at it sounds, i don't think that Wish reception would have turned out that diferent even if they keep the og concepts.
Disney stopped making love stories since frozen and that’s why their movies since frozen has been boring(to me) and not replay worthy . They stopped making love movies to not offend 2 groups of people. The feminists and lgbtq people. The feminist, girl boss will say they don’t need a man to rescue them or help them (even though not all Disney movies before has the men saving them) and the lgbtq will say Disney loves making heteronormative stories and don’t like representing gay stories in their movies. That’s why their new movies have Been flopping eg look at wish. They need to go back to what people have known them as which is that romantic love fantasy stories they’ve been known to do to be successful. People need to stop relating too much on Disney stories cus it’s what ✨FANTASY✨, not real so they won’t get offended with every thing
They didn't always tell love stories to be fair. Pinocchio and Alice in Wonderland exist.
Great point!
Let's not mince words. They WERE talented before. However, they have regressed SO FAR that they can't even animate a damn horse when EUDWEARD MUYBRIDGE IS RIGHT THERE AS A REFERENCE. They can't write actual villains, they can't write actual heroes, and they can't push the medium. All they know is the basics. This is worse than the "Dark Ages" of the company. It's now the "Remedial Age" of Disney.
Also, you forgot Roger Rabbit as the means to get to the Disney Renaissance.
At least that was funny
@@starscreamthecruel8026 It got a few chuckles. Not like an actual LAUGH like the one miracle that happened in Lightyear with the robot.
Honestly I think there's a bit of a bigger problem. They seem to have forgotten how to write characters and morals in general in a lot of their more recent movies so of course romance seems impossible to them. This is just a hunch, but I have the feeling they might have replaced their talent with younger people with less experience plus the execs probably nitpick out any romance because of all the online complaining people have done regarding the classics. I swear Disney can't even write a simple interesting story anymore nevermind a compelling romance.
I’ve been dying for a Disney princess love story
I’m aromantic, so personally, I appreciate these no romance stories
Fair enough :)
The goofier thing is that the latest Pixar film was a romance story.
I love romance movies so much 😭 I have to watch old romance movies because theres not a lot of good ones nowadays.
If the wish failure show us off….we want Return of hood Disney romances
Except it only "failed" in North America and did really well in Europe and Asia and South America.
Let’s go back to having Disney couples by making Nick and Judy an official Disney couple in their sequel!
This is a nice video and I think disney need to have romance in some of there films
Thank you 🙏
Devil's not a fan of love.
If they insist on focusing on sequels only, they could at least make Encanto 2 and give us a cute love duet between Dolores and Mariano (and flesh out their characters more). I personally liked Wish, I like it as is and I also like all the Star Boy fan content a lot too. But I also like the old princesses and wouldn't mind damsels in distress that have a prince charming or knight in shining armor save them. Fantasy isn't about girlbossing, it's about escapism. When life sucks it's nice to daydream about happily ever afters.