We Need to Talk About 'Toxic Femininity'
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- A continuation on our conversation about cheating men--what about cheating women? Are they the "toxic feminine?" Do women with public images get criticized Too Infrequently? Join me for a video that has nothing to do with Adam Levine or the Try Guys, but tries to utilize the algorithm to talk about bell hooks and dunk on Jordan Peterson.
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edited by danae o.!
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switched up the thumbnail, now it's a dunk on jordan peterson video yayyy
Awesome!
Yeah i hate that douche
I would like to point this out, femeninity and masculinity need not be connected to one's sex and or gender, a man can be femenine and thus have toxic femeninity, and woman can be masculine and thus have toxic masculinity. So not every behavior a by a certain gender need to be the toxic version of set gender, toxic masculinity is things like being Phisically violent and cold and toxic femininity is more so a kin to emotional manipulation, while mascule things are more phisical and cold, femenine things are more emotional and soft. I would like to point out that using terms such as toxic masculinity and toxic femininity aren't supposed to be used to attack gendered trates, rather to classify certain behaviour, I don't think there is a "true" masculinity or femeninity as both the toxic parts are true, rather, I concider there are also positive gendered traits but this traits need not be connected to one's gender, a women can have both positive mascule and famine traits, and a man can have positive masculine and femenine traits, and a nb person can have them as well. For exemple, Jim bros, they are masculine, but also have feminen traits, its completely normal to have various gendered traits, there are also gender neutral traits that can be positive or toxic, such as being studious as positive or lazy as toxic neutral gendered trate. I think a person should heave a variety of positive traits, even those that aren't related to their gender, and avoid toxic traits regardless of their gender, like u can't have a guy palyg the victim card (toxic femininity) and say "but I'm not a bad guy, I'm not violet".
Bottom line...lets just try to be nice ppl...thats it....
I have a video idea for you with something that I think is very important to address that I think you would be far better at doing so than me. Everytime I have tried to speak about whatever, I get virtually no attention, just empty words, how do I know this, cause the follow up is anywhere from next to nothing to nothing. Anyways, would it be possible for you to in your owns ways with your own style to possibly do a video on raising awareness in regards to men not being as bad as they are portrayed in the media/etc/etc/etc, that women need to also be held accountable/addressed too, also pointing out the good in both men and women and how we can better ourselves with this knowledge, and the possible reasons as to why these stats are what they are. As for the states, they pretty much say it all - Anyways, here is a copy of one of the rants that I made with said stats - I would change some of the wording now, but this is exactly how I typed it, right during the moment/when it was truly raw: "@Claude hopper You are very lucky to find a woman who seems to actually look at what is real, so cherish her like the diamond in the rough that she is (As I am sure you already do)🥺
I am a bit on the smaller side myself (5'8 - 5'9) and have had women come to me before (And seemed to have had decent luck on eharmony but once my profile is read or I mention High functioning Autism (With explaining it), it doesn’t matter about the positives it has given me, it is almost always game over right then and there, but of course they will kite other reasons. In person, a few women seemed interested. On eharmony, most that start talking to me just end up ghosting me with no reasoning given and as for the others it's always been the whole, oh, I just came on here to make friends.
Welp, first off it's a relationship site, not a permanent friend zoning site. Guys get roasted for quite a few things, but it seems to me that those things are magnified in a decent amount of women and that we just in a smaller way remind them of who they are, but a lot of us don’t start out in a life has given me enough relationship BS kind of attitude, our changes are almost always when things get to be too much (Again, that is how it seems), and stringing someone along is one of the most cruel things a person can do and should be an honest to god sin. there is a different between dealing with a lot and just being naturally toxic regardless of the degrees of natural toxicity and their lifestyles/etc😭
Speaking of which, I also hate it when you get those kinds of people with the ignorant and the whole toxic energy responses (You can just tell they are naturally off) and that too is a massive turn off. I am a really nice guy and even amongst average persons my intellect is still considered as being fairly decent. “That’s just how it is, that’s life, just deal with it, just man up, live with it…”
I just remembered some youtube videos I watched years ago where people tried putting on some high footwear for a year that still looked perfectly natural instead of their regular footwear (They carried on with there every day lives as usual) to make themselves look a couple inches or so taller (Also making it look like they had either size 10, 11 or 12 feet, I cannot remember which of those 3, I think it might have been any of those depending on the body type/etc) to see just how much more attention they got. I myself have never tried that, but almost everyone who did (I can not find the youtube videos again unfortunately to prove my point though) got noticeably more attention from women and at times even having certain invites/favours asked of them, usually at their place...
Also, just look at the stats, almost every guy who is like 6'0" - 6'4" gets the absolute best luck (Doesn't even matter if they are dominant A$$h***s - Which should be a turn off “The A$$h***s part I mean”, and in that height range looks just have to be at least decent) and guys who are deemed to short get so little luck that they don't even register on the chart as it uses whole persons for a marker (I do actually have the link to this video and this stuff is further corroborated on more than enough sources on the net).
It is hard enough trying to date most women with their outrageous expectations. Can anyone blame certain guys for acting the way they do overtime and in changing their ones fantastic attitudes/patience/etc. And many of the guys who date multiple women, well, yeah, no kidding, that is the only way for a fair number to have even a minute chance of finding someone special...
Is it hard to find a good man? Maybe for those who are looking for one and suffer from friend zoning syndrome it is… I mean come on, there are what, like 8bil people on Earth (Roughy hald of those men), and you expect me to believe that most of us are A$$h***s… Really!! How many men (Numbers wise) are actually like that? I mean… come on!!
You want to talk about cheating... Over 2 times as many wives cheat as husbands (The single guys that get the action, I wonder how many of them get multiple MARRIED women in their beds? How many have a different one or more for every day of the year?🤬)!! To further add to this, the very few doctors who have come forward about infidelity have stated that there are a frightening number of children that do not come from their fathers that are not even accounted for in cheating statistics, so it seems to me that overall Women are worse than men but are just very, very good at putting on an amazing act, yet, us men are often the ones that are deemed as being insensitive and all the rest of it!! And we are usually considered as the ones who think only with a certain part of our body!!!!!!!
Now, how about some other stats:
It is believed that over 90% of men don’t even report physical/emotional abuse from women do to the stigma/perceived shame (Also with the law being mainly more prejudice towards men overall).
Roughly 80% of calls to police from men about women abusing them get ignored.
Roughly 80% of the cases that actually do get filed are either just shelved or torn up/deleted.
Roughly 90% of the cases that are looked into don’t have all that much effort put into them (Meaning that only around 1 in 10 are taken seriously)…
And as for how many of the cases that are taken seriously (And those that aren’t) end up getting actual/real justice, who knows…
These statistics are quite terrifying and a woman can also put on a very good act and have a man framed too and ruin his life even further…
Pretty much all of us know that most women are better then most men at expressing their emotions/etc, and there are 4X as much online bullying (The type where you can cause the most damage the quickest in this day and age) done by women then by men…
These are scary times for men whether one wants to admit it or not…
Please, please, please help to raise awareness about this🙏🏻
And how about abuse? You hear about parts of the world where Women are severely abused? Welp lets look into that. Even though the men there have all the opportunities in the world to be abusers/etc without suffering any repercussions, who does virtually all the abuse? The soldiers. Why? Because usually the ones who make it through in many of those areas are the bottom of the barrel, you know, the aggressors, the rapists that come into peoples homes, terrorize the citizens and all the rest of it… the media/etc loves to fudge things, fake things, sweep things under the rug, over exaggerate things and so on, so I don’t know, you tell me!!
You hear about women wanting a nice guy with a dark (Not in a bad way but still bad, if you catch my drift) mysterious side yet when that is shown, God help most men!! If a guy cries in public with the same intensities and reasons as women (Not talking about pregnancies and the other obvious ones, lolz), then they are looked upon as freaks... It is for sure very hard for a fair number of us to be guys, and yes, when it comes to love in particular, your comment of life on hard mode is very, very relevant!!
I wonder as to how many guys cheat because they don't get enough physical and/or emotional connections that are needed fr a human being (Many need most of the regular to feel truly connected)?!! How many married guys end up changing for the worst because of the inequality/unfair unbalanced bullshit that ends up popping up for them?!!
And don't even get me started about the f***ed up laws that favour most women in divorce court. It all just makes me want to vomit🤢🤮🫥
Anyways, ranting aside, you may want to check out the above mentioned video. The stats are there for all to see at a tidbit past the 20 second mark: th-cam.com/video/hIQPPeqIZ6Y/w-d-xo.html "
When you have men saying stuff like women are not held accountable or even if they say they are never held accountable, even though that is what is coming out of their mouths, they don't actually mean every last women there is. Especially not those who are in the spotlight/etc as those types of people have their lives under a microscope where the media works it's magic to sway people in certain directions, which when it comes to fame/etc even the women can easily get roasted. But eve so you still have stuff like Johnny Depp and Amber Heard... The trail went on even when it was painfully obvious who the culprit was, and who was the one who got roasted by Hollywood pretty much right off the bat... Yup, you guessed it... Ph, and if you have not seen by other comment here, please read it cause I have a lot to say that I think is very important and would make for a great video for you to do :)
The comment at the start of the video is so interesting to me because really in reality the woman isn’t coddled, typically they get the most blame I mean even looking at the Clinton scandal and how Monica Lewinsky was thrown under the bus, its always the woman being the ‘“homewrecker”, typically the man gets to stay in their relationship and barely faces any consequences but the woman does. Even if the person the husband cheats with doesn’t know he was in a relationship. I think the person that decided to be in a monogamous relationship with someone and promised commitment is the most at fault, no matter the gender of the other. What the “side” person did is wrong ‘(if she knew/) yes but also she didn’t make that commitment or promise to that persons spouse. Whoever is in that relationship had/has the choice.
yeah even thinking of all of the movies where the scorned(?) wife goes after the mistress instead of focusing her anger on the husband who betrayed her in the first place
Another important factor that people forget is the power dynamic and imbalance making it difficult to discern issues around consent.
right, even if they knew..you’re still the one who made a commitment at the end of the day. you betrayed the trust.
This really bothers me. People don't understand that this man was willing to cheat on his wife, no matter which woman, HE was open to offers. It could have been that girl or any other.
But sure, they always blame the women 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Oh brother I lost braincells reading this. Oh you poor little thing. I hate this damn topic. The truth is both men and women have it hard in their own ways. Stop saying it’s only women. Ugh I honestly hate this country’s people. I love the land of the USA, but I just REALLY dislike some of the humans mindsets here. Just a bunch of crying infants these days.
I think in with cheating situations a big reason why ppl will often demand that the other woman gets criticized is because of the general wrapped views of why cheating happens that society has. Cheating is often viewed as giving into temptations and urges. Which is often solidify in ppl's minds because these celebrity affairs tend to be purely sexual with the recent Ned scandal being a huge exception. Thus the women in these situations are painted as seducresses who were probably the ones who initiated the affair, so actually she should get more blame than the dude, source: dude, trust me.
This whole belief is also super gender essentialist cause the men in these situations at least partially given a "boys will be boys" pass, while the women are often accused of entering these kinds of relationships with wanting to gain something, often fame. (Which if you think about it wouldn't ignoring them be the best punishment?) Even in the Ned Fulmer case ppl dug through old content and found an old clip that suggest the person he cheated with is apparently "into seducing married men" in order to preemptively reject an accusation that the relationship was coerced, an accusation that has yet to be made.
But ya, views of cheating that society tends to push just breaks my brain. It's just so riddled with gender essetialism and worse yet it also victim blames they ppl who were cheated on because "why did you let them follow ppl of the opposite gender on ig, why did you let that temptation exist?" And then there's a whole other can of worms when you remember that the queer community exist and how this shit feeds biphobia. It's so much and I hate it all. . .
nublet the og thank you for your thoughts
@@elliotsangestevez
Anytime dude! Congrats on your recent vid blowing up it has been a long time coming imo!!
@@Nublet864 thank you!!!! i try!!!
Yes, it's ridiculous some people are trying to divide the blames and concequences. Especially when the other person is a woman. We don't really see that share the blame talk when the cheater is a woman and the other person is a man.
For me it's whoever that have taken the vow is mostly at fault. Sure, it's bad that the other woman/other man carries out the relationship knowing that person is married. But the other woman/man has no obligation to be faithful. The only victim in cheating is the one who get cheated on and the kids (if there are any) and in cases where the other woman/ other man is also lied to and unknowingly get with a married person (but if they continue the relationship after finding out the truth, it's another story).
With Ned and Alex though, both are terrible people. They both are in the committed relationships with their own partners. But Alex is just engaged, I think. Unlik Ned who is married with kids. Also we are getting a bit desensitized to all the cheatings, I feel. Cheating isn't seen as a serious matter anymore, something that break trust and is disrespectful. Mostly because of the rich and famous. Most cheaters only get 'punished' when the cheatings threaten their brands.
Damn your 2nd paragraph is so true and important. In older days when a man cheated it was seen entirely as the fault of the woman that he was having the afffair with for seducing him and they were even punished for that. And it was also seen as the wife's fault for not having enough inter course and not satisfying the man and men will be men. In these modern age when people have somewhat started to blame men for their own actions but still can't do without atleast putting some of the blame on women and still trying to make them responsible for the man's actions. And i agree with the other comment cause we don't get to see so much concern over blaming the mistress too when it's a man, like in jada and will smith's situation. People were rightly sympathizing with will but also sympathizing with august, the sude dude and everyone was jumpjng at jada's throat but didn't do the same with august.
Gotta love that whenever a video essay is referenced there always is a 25% chance that the person is wearing a theatrical costume.
this comment made me cackle
@@elliotsangestevez aw
To me, a lot of the things ppl describe when talking about “toxic femininity” are just internalized patriarchal ideas from women or a woman who happens to be toxic. However, real toxic femininity is more harmful to women rather than other ppl.
It’s not speaking up for yourself, or expecting ppl to know how you feel, sacrificing yourself and your needs for everyone else. Even, using your emotions to manipulate,etc. This is real, however, this is not only something that’s pushed on women in a patriarchal society, but if we don’t act like this, we are subject to being ostracized. This is the only “power” or perceived power we have in a patriarchal society.
When factoring in race, as a Black woman, we’re seen as the mule, even for women of other races.
While toxic masculinity is also harmful to men themselves, it’s also equally harmful if not worse to non men. Men get praised for acting out toxic masculinity, and while they get criticized for not acting like this, there are certain traits(being a family man, a wife guy, being faithful, being emotionally intelligent in relationships) that offer him praise.
Whereas for women acting in toxic femininity or acting outside of it, doesn’t receive praise at all. Those traits are expected in women, and when we act outside of that, we’re ostracized, no praise or reward at all.
When anti feminist try to use this as an equivalent or “gotcha” to convos about toxic masculinity they fall flat, because they’re not the same. Societal context and power is the difference.
And I agree, gender essentialism is a hindrance. These are social constructs that are pushed on us. And the problem with a lot of these convos is that they don’t go to the root. Patriarchy. A gender hierarchy. Social rules. Loved this vid.
This is a brilliant take.
loved your insight! thank you for the comment!
@@elliotsangestevez thanks! Love your channel and your take on this.
I love this perspective! I could feel something felt off about putting both toxic masculinity and toxic femininity in the same bag but I couldn't put my finger on it.
I definitely can get where you’re going. One of the archetypes we can look at as an example of toxic feminity is the “gatekeeping, gaslight girl boss” who I would properly redefine as the “Wannabe Incompetent Dragon Lady.” The real dragon ladies are praised and secured regardless of criticism they receive. But a wannabe one can set back and destroy societal expectations on a large scale. Maybe Elizabeth Holmes is an example of this, but again, I can’t say that this archetype can solidify a definition of toxic feminity. There are competent women in authority but they didn’t get to their positions by hype train. “Girl boss” is almost as corporate tokenism as the Pride flag logos and race swap casting, so anyone exhibiting traits of “girl bossing” are riding a hype train. I don’t know anyone in my age range with real power riding a girl boss hype train. Since I don’t see frequent instance of girl boss, I really can’t say girl bosses are problem as much as the patriarchy is in the real world.
I just think it’s weird to blame the women in cheating scandals because just like the Adam leviene one there were multiple women. If it’s not this woman it’s gonna be another why is it her responsibility to make sure this man is faithful in his relationship.
I probably butchered his name I’m so sorry maroon heads don’t come for me 😩
In that particular case I’m not too pressed because the accuser is in this weird niche of identity where she’s easily dismissed anyway for being a profiteer of sexuality so again, not sure about that person getting off scot-free in society. That person is not really gonna given a lotta wiggle room outta that persona by nature of daring to be out and possibly wanting to dedicate their personal time pursuing wealthy or famous people, ya know the far more egregious crime than say stepping out a monogamous partnership and lying to a person you claim to be faithful to and warping their personal sense of reality about the nature of said relationship. Yeah being a star f****er is a way worse personal failing….I guessss
They are both in the wrong especially in this case that Adam is a public figure I find it unlikely that she didn’t know he was marry, some women don’t take responsibility for their actions
But it's disingenuous to call out someone as a cheater when you are helping them cheat. You clearly didn't care about the fact that they were cheating.
@@nihartley5265 If a person doesn't respect their own relationship they can't expect other people to respect it more, how you treat your own relationship is the guiding light for how far other people can take you out of it.
I always assumed toxic femininity is essentially the traits of being feminine that hold women back from furthering themselves such as the constant need to push each other down and hold each other back rather than unifying in brotherhood to bring themselves up and their fellow sisters.
Like a pick me girl?
@@steamyvegetables1445 yeah I can see that. Most of when I see it is at work. When someone gets promoted the women who didn’t move up tend to state that individual doesn’t deserve the promotion or that she’s a traitor. Where as most men I see will congratulate or jokingly say they’re next to get promoted.
@@chrombugatti16 I think partially because for men they have a higher chance to actually be promoted? Idk… But women are definitely raised into a cutthroat competition, it’s not as obvious as men’s probably to an indifferent onlooker
Would it then be safe to say that you would think that toxic masculinity is toxic because men are taught to be selfish in their actions whereas toxic femininity is toxic because they are taught to be selfless? If so... that may be just a smidge prejudiced
@@chrombugatti16 It would put men in a bad light for trying to help themselves whereas women would be encouraged to help themselves. Not saying that you would think that, but it would be something to ruminate on.
I think also it matters where these arguments come from. I don’t necessarily think that there aren’t women who actively participate in toxic behavior for convenience or bc they think it’s funny, but it’s interesting to see that the argument for toxic femininity only comes up when toxic masculinity is being discussed. If an argument moreso exists to contradict another one rather than bring attention to and fix an issue, when is it worthy of attention and who decides that? Loved the video, and you certainly gave us a lot to think about!
It’s just like how mens abuse is almost only ever brought up when women talk about abuse against women. These things rarely have their own platform and are often used to basically say “you’re bad too!” to deflect from the discussion at hand.
@@TahtahmesDiary When people actually try to discuss the issues men face, it gets cancelled by radical feminist activists.
@@aAverageFan
I’m not sure what kind of ‘feminist’ circles you’re hanging around, but you may need to leave them and try looking into intersectional feminism. It’s been a wonderful experience. The dismissal of men’s abuse is a direct result of patriarchal values, and denying them only pushes back the progress we’ve made.
@•alovelygaycat• this is a massive oversimplification. Being someone who's relatively active in groups speaking towards men's issues, from my experience, anyone who walks in with a knowing smile, condescendingly says that patriarchy is the origin point for all of our issues, and that instead of say, being "anti-feminists" by protesting feminist made legislation that excludes men and boys from Rape/Domestic violence laws and services, we can support them and "join the fight" and that maybe one day they'll toss us a bone and undo the harmful legislation. Until we reduce the problems of current day men to the actions of past men and blindly refuse to engage with the ways that feminism (yes, including intersectional feminism) is creating barriers in some ways towards progress today, such comments will always come across as attempts to say "shut up, It makes me uncomfortable when you talk about this" rather than an actual statement being made
@@VoidT0xin Uhhh you know that it’s your job to protest those laws? Women can support you, sure, but no one’s going to get civil rights for your group instead of you. Why did suffragette movement started with women, and not a bunch of gentlemen in top hats thinking “Gee Gerold it’s high time we give those women power to vote!” 🤔 And if you start protesting it, there’s a high chance intersectional feminists will join to broaden the law and bring in new definitions.
I personally think that the cheater is 100 per cent at fault. Most common romantic and sexual relationships are closed monoamorous, meaning you promise your partner not to do sexual stuff with other people. No-one else promised you anything.
Also cheating can happen in polyamorous relationships too. Cheating means breaking the boundaries you set, and betraying the trust in your relationship. Cheating isn't the act of sleeping with someone in itself, it's about the betrayal.
imo there's insane issues with this on a bunch of different levels.
1. Cheating heavily relies on breaking boundaries. But there's often times the precedent of most relationships boundaries, and personal/subjective interpretations of boundaries.
You'll often times find people are COMPLETELY aware of the precedents, and still choose to tip toe/push boundaries of their partners. Imo, people that cheat and people that like to homewreck relationships, both tend to be boundary pushers, which are very toxic behaviours.
People tend to use manipulative language and tactics for people that DON'T establish boundaries at all, they tend to be the types that hinge on someone not stating the subjective ones, and play a fool to the precedents, homewrecker can do this aswell.
I'd still argue the central theme of why cheating is so bad, is the immoral action of betrayal. In a vacuum you would be correct, but if the other person that is the homewrecker is not only in the know, but a family member, a close friend or something like that, there is a betrayal there that increases the fault of that person aswell.
If the homewrecker doesn't know the other person is in a relationship, you're 100% right, but if they do know that for a fact, than you are wrong....
I base this solely on social contracts. Social contracts are ways in which you treat people, and you want to be treated.
If we all acted is if any behaviour is okay in a vacuum, well fuck it do anything, negate the emotional/material damage you do because it's your life, you're not here to min/max the potential harm you do to people. But that's not how we do stuff. If you knowingly sleep with someone who's in a relationship, you are knowingly an actor in a potentially life altering event, infidelity has a certain type of PTSD response, increases the likelihood for mental health issues, depression, suicidality, anxiety, gives the person long standing trust issues etc. Idk how you COULD go through with that as an empathetic person, you simply could not without immense regret and probably years of beating yourself up.
If someone acts in a certain way, they have essentially voided the contract, this is probably why murder is a very common response to infidelity, and why even the delusional perception of your spouse commiting infidelity is so common in the literature of femicide and murder.
The contracts aren't real, but neither is morality. The contracts act as a good analogy for morality, as they can be voided and be met with consequences, usually socially. If you want to live in a peaceful, great and prosperous society, you cannot act as if your actions only carry weight depending on the closeness to a person.. that's simply a factor.
Full frontal lobe development is definitely a topic I think should be talked about more often because not a lot of people know about it and at what age it happens
25
Let’s be real….no, it doesn’t.
You don’t have a fully developed frontal lobe? Cool? Met plenty of 27 year old women with 0 self awareness and believes the world revolves around them.
Fully developed “frontal lobe” and yet….
Yet they still somehow manage to act about as immature as a 19 year old.
It’s just more middle class white woman political theory….
It's never an excuse for poorly thought out behaviour, though
@@mikanchan322 some people are just idiots
@@mikanchan322 Bro, everyone has poorly thought out behavior at one point, but why do you need to make everyone's poorly thought out behavior your business? We all go through our retard phase and it ends later for some of us than most.
I have a feeling this channel is gonna pop off quickly. Love your content!
im shocked to hear ppl say this! thank you!!!
Agreed
Elliot is brilliant and I love the cat too. Lol
Hi elliot, came from the wife guys videos and watched bunch of your other videos and I'm addicted. Your amazing at what you do, keep going!! 😀 😊
thank you!!!
Yes same I wanted to say the same thing. Did not realize I was gonna get what you give and soooo stoked like instant subscribed/fan wish I actually had more channels like you like could immediately realize the exceptional quality and unique perspective/personality.
I came from your video on parasociality, and you seem to have some seriously good and nuanced ideas, please keep doing this
One refinement I would have made was to add that "masculinity" and "femininity" are about both what men and women are "supposed" to DO, *and* QUALITIES we're "supposed" to have. A small thing, perhaps even unnecessary, but if it were me, I would have emphasized that as well.
I am so grateful for finally having a term for discussing the issue of "gender essentialism." It is something I've been struggling to articulate for a long time, and this video, introducing me to that term, is such a beg help. THANK YOU!!
no it's about qualities people naturally had and kept memory of in culture and customs
before we started eating crap destroying own hormones brains and acting inhumane outside our natural development environment
I have been studying much of this - the semiotics and stylistics of gender and class construction, as well as their macro and microeconomic substructures - since the ‘90s, when you still had to penetrate the academic language at an advanced level to get to these concepts. You are doing much more justice to the complexities of this line of argumentation and philosophy than much bigger, louder TH-camrs and many academics. I’m impressed. I’m excited. Glad to know you when you’re still this small because I sincerely hope you won’t be for long 🎉
i would love to chat with you about this! this is so flattering thank you!
Any time, honestly. The democratization of this kind of discussion is one of the most beautiful things about the social media age. I genuinely believe we are sitting at an inflection point between conversation that obfuscates and conversation that illuminates. Creators like you give me faith that perhaps we will find ourselves slouching towards the light after all.
To have a meaningful discussion of gender that respects the appearance of its essential ontological nature while neatly demonstrating just that - its APPEARANCE - is not a small thing. Especially packaged in a neat, consumable thumbnail…it’s elegant. And I appreciate that.
Don’t abandon this. You are very good at it.
TL;DR
Elliot, if you want to see a wonderful example of supportive, masculine gym bros look no further than the Self-Improvement club in Mob-Psycho. They are refreshingly wholesome and supportive.
We STAN the Body Improvement Club!!
OMG. I always think the were so cute and supportive when I first started watching Mob-psycho 100.
FIGHT ON!!
If you're not a professor yet and are patient enough with unruly kids, you really should consider that line of work. I looooooove how you were able to make all these theories and frameworks more digestible to the average viewer. Not all commentary channels are able to do this without being too caught up with aesthetic presentations, I've observed. And you're a beautiful fellow Asian, too, which is a charming little bonus! New sub and instant fan here, Elliot! Keep it up 🤎
Edit: super excited to watch the Kendrick Lamar video when I have my coffee tomorrow!
I find it interesting when people say “why do we only talk about toxic masculinity and never about toxic femininity” because we do, just not using that word. People have been criticizing the way women traditionally behave for centuries. Whether that be making fun of women’s fashion trends and labeling the women who partake in them as vain, associating lying and manipulation with women, or demonizing attractive women for being temptresses who drive men down the wrong path. The feminine has always been under criticism. What we haven’t seen is criticism of how men traditionally behave until very recently (unless the criticism was motivated by something else such as racism). I think there needed to be a conversation about how the pressures men face cause them to hurt themselves and others. I wonder if having the same conversation about women’s behaviour does any good right now.
that's not what I would call traditional women behaviour 😂
but these are certainly things men joked about and disliked women since start of world
let's start about damage made to men by coeducation on not equal stage of development between sexes and predominantly female schools...
Its worthy to say everyone can be toxic masculine.
Ok inthink that since i saw xena that if you treat warlording as toxic masculimity, she does deal with that.
No reason womem cant be toxic masculine.
This is quite wrong.
Men are by default expected to exceed expectations, and are hence prone to more risk. This myth you construct about women being criticized more than men is just that, a myth.
Hey there,
You need to clarify what you specifically mean by "until recently". Is it until the feminist movement came around, or until very recently, that is, some period of history you've personally been through?
If the former, I mean no disrespect but you're vastly unaware of history.
I would suggest you to not use the liberal sources as objective to what actually happened in history. No source without an agenda would ever say "women were oppressed in the past". They were not, no matter how uncomfortable taking the privilege away from you might sound. Read ancient or medieval literature rather than the modern politically motivated texts, for a proper insight.
Elliot I've really been a fan of your K-Pop critiques as someone from the left, searching for a nuanced, intricate, and grounded scientific dialectic in deconstructing it. As an ARMY your interviews and chats with some of the most informative and knowledgable fans in the sphere expanded what I knew as a fan since 2017. This essay on Toxic Femininity is another amazing milestone for your channel. I see a lot of potential from you and keep doing it bro, you are amazing. We need more people actually deconstructing the complex reality, thoughtfully.
So this kinda makes me think about women with internalized misogyny, such as those who belittle more feminine women/people or try to display masculine behavior just to suck up to a patriarchal system (a.k.a. being "pick me" girl). Are they displaying toxic masculinity or toxic femininity? 🤔 I mean it's toxic something...
I think it’s the patriarchy grinding against capital realism, in order to be successful in the sphere of work everyone conforms to the behavior that’ll make them more personally successful. The only indication of success is the defeat and destruction of other entities. The ability to compromise or form group solidarity outside of fulfilling the goal of earning is meant to be perceived as suspect and undermining the “special” individual who strives and succeeds based on their singular efforts and deserves the top position in the hierarchy…despite being just another member in a group benefitting from the time and energy of others…
i think thosearewomen acting in a toxic masculine way. however the toxic feminine girlies are the ones who look down on women who don't do traditionally feminine things like taking care of their physical appearance, wearing make up, being more outspoken and dominant, being unattractive to men etc etc. think about light/dark/divine feminine channels or tik tok accounts who preach looking for a high quality men or being in your feminine energy.
I was a former pick me, but it was based on being raised in a doomsday cult and being treated terribly as a disabled person
sounds like it could be both, if you're raised to think that boys/girls are ____. Then you'll want to oppose authority and be more ____. The distorted view of their social circle would consist of probably wouldn't help. Since as a person that's both "better" than other women and think men are beneath them would drive just about anyone sane away.
@TheTroutyness Damn that’s horrible wtf
Why is everyone blaming the other women? It's HIS fault , he chose to cheat. The conversation should not even be about her.
Both are wrong imo
Because both are in the wrong. Unless the other woman didn’t know then there really isn’t a convo to be had about her.
But if someone is actively fucking a person they know is in a relationship, then they are just as much a trash human as the cheater. Point blank.
@@cosodesign8953
The other person has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.
Is he unable to control himself and not cheat? It's all.on him
NO ACCOUNTABILITY
@@blakesatlanta9597
NO, it's only the man's fault if he cheats. It's his choice to do so.
Who the other woman is or what she did is absolutely irrelevant.
There's NO ACCOUNTABILITY with cheating men.
@@wyleecoyotee4252 WHAT‽
I always viewed toxic masculinity/femininity as harmful traits associated with stereotypes of gender norms perpetuated by society. I think these traits are not inherently gendered because, as you mentioned, anyone of any gender can do these things. They just get assigned as masculine or feminine based on extremes that society has normalized as such. Light hearted jokes of "boys will be boys" when children assigned male at birth are physically agressive and "she was just teasing" when children assigned female at birth engage in verbal aggression/bullying. Obviously all children are capable and do both of these things, but the narrative around it from the people around us growing up set these as expectations associated with gender. So really we could just call them "toxic traits" in general because they are harmful no matter the gender of the person engaging in that behavior.
Thank you you will be hopefully a resouce to this harmed generation
not in nature
@@szymonbaranowski8184 What is "not in nature"? You would have to elaborate on what you mean here for it to make any sense.
As if homewrecker was mainly used towards men... We used to mainly blame the women when a man cheated (the wife and the homewrecker). Now, instead of focusing on only the woman, we actually focus on the person that's in a relationship!
yes, we should have always blamed parents!
Honestly, men who cheat constantly do it regardless of the girl they're cheating on their gf/wife with. I absolutely cannot blame the girl, these dudes follow a pattern, if one girl doesnt say yes, some other girl will.
same goes for women who cheat
That doesn't absolve women who knowingly have affairs with men. The logic is really faulty. Like the capitalist logic of if I don't exploit for profit someone else will so it's ok.
@@gezusmofo i'm curous about what symbolizes profit here lol i'm not nietzche-like in my conceptions of moral, but it is pretty clear that cheating is a very complex phenomenom that involves compulsive monogamy (with capitalist and patriarchal roots), possibly undiagnosed personality or mood disorders, attachment patterns/issues, mental illness (cheating is one helluva way of self-sabotaging), communication issues within couples and so much more...there is an argument to be made for people who cheat on their current partners with an ex because of the emotional baggage involved, but I honestly believe (and this is my experience here) that cheaters will act on their impulses however they can.
As a latin american I have to say that I never knew 'marianismo' had anything to do with all of this, I was taught that it was a term applied for the 'fans' of mother Mary 💀
thats the original meaning of the term!
Thats really cute that mother Mary has a Fandom name 🤷♂️😭❤ I never knew, it is truly, a fun fact :)
this is so well articulated and tackles the issue with so much nuance, i feel like this channel is gonna get really big!
maybe!
thank u so much!!
This is wonderful very well said. Adding a gender specific role in front of the word “toxicity” is just part of the problem. Everyone should be held accountable and we can hopefully strive towards leaving out or pre conceived notions of what women & men roles should be.
you have a great way of getting your point across-since there’s so many video essayists now, a lot of times I feel like their analyses are kind of surface level or one dimensional. You explore different avenues, give interesting perspectives, and ur also a great speaker!! im subscribing asap, hope your channel gets more recognition🙏🏽
People don't talk about "Toxic femininity" as much as "Toxic masculinity" because men are encouraged and being told that a Toxic masculine man is the correct way of being a man, whereas femininity is always looked down upon.
Nah that's wrong
the mainstream media tells men to be toxic?
Nah, that's just not true.
I think that is slowly changing. We are certainly still seeing the effects of your statement being true in the past, but one example for this change would be that being feminine is starting to be "lucrative" even for some men (although this one is arguably bad and capitalism late stage but you know, can of worms and all that).
R u insane?
If someone doesn't want to abide by the expectation of monogamy, they should negotiate this with their life partner before marriage, before getting engaged, at the very beginning of their commitment to the relationship.
man you are really just reaching right inside my brain with these takes and managing to put into coherent sentences and structure the stuff I've been rattling around and trying to figure out for ages. It's really something. Good job with all your videos, I'm enjoying them a lot
I was worried that this was going to be a pro MRA video but I was very pleasantly surprised at how nuanced and well done it was! Hats off to you. I subscribed 💞
Incredibly coherent. I fear sometimes it may be too coherent for many people but your subs continue to increase so I am heartened. Keep up the good work man. You're a treasure 💜
you are too kind!
KITTY APPEARANCE 🥺🥺🥺
she's the best
Appreciate the turn towards questioning the value of toxic masculinity and toxic femininity as labels. I think there is difficulty in defining them in that their converses, healthy masculinity and healthy femininity, are essentially the same and mostly dissolved of gendered meaning. That is, embodying healthy femininity as a woman means to be secure with embodying healthy masculinity, or any other social mode that may lie outside the binary gender dynamic, while still seeing your full value as a woman and human being. Vice versa for men or any other gender identification, but of course that does not mean that people must or should assume all genders at once, or converge to some “median” gender identity (let’s consider it an n-dimensional median, since gender is non-binary). To me, it is just that we should strive to be secure in our identities and help ensure others feel safe in theirs.
This definition is a little too prescriptive-it’s certainly not perfect-but I think it is indicative of the latest generations’ ideal future that is free of socially enforced gender conformity. With that to orient us, labels like toxic masculinity and toxic femininity should be needed less and less.
Lot of interesting general discussion to have about how social anxieties or ailments become transposed onto their proxies, centralizing the proxies and eventually obscuring the reason for the proxies’ articulation.
This will sound silly, but Jeff Bezos made a good point about this sort of phenomenon in the context of business during his Lex Fridman interview. Someone in an organization is interested in tracking, say, customer satisfaction, so they create some metric that serves as a proxy for customer satisfaction. The reasoning for this metric’s creation and it’s limitations are known to the creator. Over time these reasons are lost, the limitations less understood, and there becomes a risk of mistaking the metric for the actual thing. Multiplied by the many metrics businesses collect today, and in the worst case you make a major decision on a mirage. More likely is that there are many small inefficiencies introduced, but over time these are enough to sink a ship, too.
So I suppose that is why I appreciate the reluctance to place too much weight in these labels. I don’t want to be on a sinking ship.
Look. There's a huge difference between physically destroying someone and destroying their reputation.
I’ve seen any toxic behaviors as a need for validation from peers, a fear of being alone, mixed with addictive behaviors when it comes to dating and relationships. I grew up in this mindset and it took a lot of time to unlearn.
Can you give a hint on how to go about it? 😅 except meditation and mindfulness I dońt quite know what to do
+1
like which ones? having dick and indetifying as man?
Great video, thank you! If I may add my 2 cents, I see toxic femininity in lot of bioessentialist tendencies. The rare petri dishes that are less contaminated by patriarchy like the icky sides of being afab. Most men don't have opinions on how to give birth or how to menstruate, they don't want to entertain the thought at all. Women? Just look at the cesarean discourse, some don't even consider you a "real mom" if you didn't deliver your baby vaginally. Or if you can't breastfeed and need to rely on formula. Or if you're genetically lucky enough to be able to have no periods with birth control, that's treated as weird and unhealthy. Whatever makes you "skip classes" on the pains of womanhood makes you a traitor.
Toxic femininity rears its ugly head in things that the male gaze ignores. Our own battlegrounds to be toxic in. And of course in TERF ideology, once again using bioessentialism, but that's a whole other comment section essay.
Those are good examples but personally I think they embody a reaction to toxic masculinity and patriarchal expectations for women, rather than being a case of toxic feminity. To survive within a patriarchy without discounting it, women are forced to compete and do so by creating these standards of "feminity," of how to be a superior woman. I definitely agree that it brings more harm to women than men, but I don't think the cause is femininity.
I see this a lot in fundamentalist religious/cultural environments in which the women are already subordinate to men, so within this life that is chosen for them, the women create a system of competition. It reminds me of youtubers like Girl Defined, Paul and Morgan, tv shows like Sister Wives and other FLDS families. It's absolutely present in South Asian cultures/religions like my own.
Not to say that bioessentialism isn't a thing, but more that it arises as a result of the social state of our society, which happens to be of toxic masculinity.
How i choose to define things:
Toxic masculinity: negative behaviors that are more prevalent in males
Toxic femininity: negative behaviors that are more prevalent in females
Patriarchy: a system that tries to control and influence these behaviors, it more often allows for toxic masculinity than toxic femininity
What people want: a system that’s based on something (other than patriarchy) that does a better job at minimizing the harm of these behaviors
as a person from divorced parents whom my mom's last straw was my dad cheating with a long time family friend, I definitely have a negative bias against people that cheat, my reasoning with this type of situations always come from a "moral" or perhaps point of view. One when the person of the relationship betrays the relationship or family which I obviously see as someone with majority of the blame but when the other party, the person whom the cheating happens, it's difficult to me to understand the why or motives behind their actions when they know that the other person has a family and how this fling can affect several people, perhaps I am naive and ignorant since I never crossed my mind at first as a gender matter but a loyalty one... so I was just watching the online discourse and taking all in
Now watching this video, scrolling social media and also reading the comment of the person that mentioned toxic feminity, all I can say it's that I don't like the term and I don't think it exist and I agree that patriarchy it's the main evil lol
my disdain to those types of comments are mainly due my own personal experiences (as most of my points of view in any topic)
my relationship with gender it's complicated and while I am non binary, my own gender expression it's mostly what society will call "feminine" and I grow up with a misogynistic father and I had to deny any form of feminine or "girly" expression to be acknowledged in some sort of way but I always question if I myself while embracing all of these things, I'm reinforcing the patriarchy, I'm trying to rebel and my own judgement of these people I don't even know cheating are doing the same thing, in the end gender norms suck and I'm not sure this long ass comment adds anything to this conversation but regardless I love hearing and reading everyone's opinions on this topic.
Yeah it all comes down to relationship dynamics as well and is not really a gendered thing, it’s a human act done by a person deliberately choosing poorly. Cheating is not a gendered natural foible inherently baked into us on a “biological “ level. It’s just people being self-absorbed assholes, and that capacity for self-absorption at the risk of willfully harming your own loved ones and frankly yourself is the part that’s mind boggling and contemptible. It’s understandable in a way because self-absorption and self-harm is something everyone dabbles in to a degree but not to injured party and not to the point of letting the cheater not bear the consequences of botched feelings and interpersonal relationships and…legality!
I've been binge watching all your videos for the past week and they're so well put together. Love your work! 💗 (also love the kitty)
this means so much to me! thank you
I subscribed like 2 days ago and you were at like 4k, went up to 6k now. well deserved, you'll make it far
THANK YOU
I really appreciate your flow of ideas. To the uninitiated, gender topics can be very confusing because terminology is used differently within gender discussions. So I was kinda worried about where you'd go and how you'd respond to the person's comment since the comment contained a lot of nuance and admittedly a bit of ignorance--but you managed to breakdown the essential nature of feminism for them in an inclusive and uplifting way. Kudos to you!
Though some constructive criticism: I think you could've broken down your discussion into a neater package. But overall you did a marvelous job of discussing a difficult topic in just 40 minutes 😊
def could have been neater ure right! but i hope the sloppy vibes at least provide a nice energy
It does! Makes the content easier to consume. Keep it up 😁
You are my new channel goals. Amazing depth, insight and entertainment
thank you!!!
@@elliotsangestevez 💙
Wow I literally just came across your channel through that video that I just finished watching. Good job.
As expected. You’ve always been a nuanced speaker and it’s what drew me to your video essays years ago. I’m glad you’re applying your skills to such a range of social topics. You nice, keep going. Rooting for your big time success because you offer so much holistic food for thought.
JANIELEE thank u!!!
I loved your video! Thanks for doing it. You did a great research, I was very happy when you mentioned the latin american definition, it's rare discussions not focused on eurocentric thoughts only. Sending you hugs from Brazil
Lmao, Kitty said, “Down with the patriarchy!” 😂 Great video btw.
These days, men seem to equate accountability with (corporal) punishment.
Love your videos glad the algorithm blessed me
Dude I‘m so happy I got your channel recommended to me! I‘m just going through your videos and there is so much to learn by watching them! Thanks for the food for thought :) Keep going!!
I think a big issue is that when we speak on these topics we always typically pick the opinions of this side who doesn’t have first-hand experience. We will always choose to tell the story and opinion of those who have been wronged by that toxicity so I feel like the root of a lot of those problems don’t ever get spoken on because of that. The root always boils down to situationalness and that persons personal experience.
unfortunately to create peace and true compassion, it would require sympathy and empathy for the perpetrators not just the victims. for any topic
Whenever I start checking out a new YT channel, I look for a video that feels real likely to expose any garbage views the creator might have. This was a great recommendation for getting that done.
You are making some of the most nuanced and deliberate videos I’ve seen in a while, and I love your approach.
You touched on the idea of toxic femininity being used to reinforce strict gender stereotypes, and it reminded me of all the times my sister played that role, both when we were kids and when she had kids of her own.
So basically, even if we stand up against toxic masculinity and toxic feminity, the concepts of masculinity and femininity will still exist, and that creates a powerdynamic, probably in favor of patriarchy. You have to abolish the entire gender roles and attributes as a whole if you really want power imbalances to be dissolved, but how will we do that if most people, especially cis heteros, hold on so tightly to these stereotypes because they're the only thing that gives them a stable sense of identity? (In my observation, the stronger somebody identifies with the stereotypes of their perceived gender, the more insecure they are, because when somebody questions that stereotype, their whole world view tends to crumble. We need to raise future children in a way that they know there is other things they can use to form their identity.)
This video should literally be shown in gender studies classes. Wow, what an insight.
I think that toxic femininity does exist, and is a mirror to toxic masculinity.
Toxic masculinity is a phenomenon of men enforcing restrictive gender roles in other men, and sexually objectifying women.
Toxic femininity is a phenomenon of women enforcing restrictive gender roles in other women, and sexually objectifying men.
Toxic femininity is women judging other women for things like not wearing makeup, or not removing body hair.
It can involve seeking relationships with men that are emotionally shallow, but that's not a core aspect of it.
People in suposedly long-term monogamous relationships cheating on their partners is unfortunately a very common human behaviour, and I don't think it's tied to any particular sexuality or gender.
The comment at the beginning, saying women are always coddled and never blamed, saying men are always blamed… I confess: I used to be one of those guys who complained about men being blamed for everything. But honestly? I think it’s really about whoever has more power/social status
Generally the man probably had more power, and gets less consequences
But on occasion, the woman might have more power (especially if she is a “professional victim,” and the guy is sweet and timid). And in those instances, those women are able to act all innocent and destroy the man when he didn’t even mean harm
I think it depends on who has more “power,” but lonely frustrated men have a “confirmation bias” only focusing on times women get away with things, ignoring times men are praised
That moment at 11 seconds could diagnose adhd lol.
I don't know what got me more: "hand gesture", dude elephant/ girl elephant, or the kitty-induced chaos! 🤣
I think the problem with hyper post-modernity is that it’s intellectuals seem to have become severely intellectually disconnected from the biological matrix.
“There are stubborn, immutable facts.” -Alfred N. Whitehead
As technology turns smaller and comes closer and closer to us, wouldn't you agree that it would eventually end up inside of us?
Good takes. Made me think about the dangers of specifically gendering toxic behaviors in ways that don't actually raise awareness of the gender hierarchy. Love your work!
Aggression and testosterone are linked. A core part of masculinity is dealing with anger and capacity for violence. This is why socializing boys to be somewhat more stoic and in control is so they don't grow up to lose control. I think this has been taken to extremes, but the idea doesn't exist in a vacuum and should be considered in it's proper context.
When men don't have room to explore this part of themselves, something that's coded into their DNA, it creates a myriad of different problems in society. It's probably a good thing for men to get in touch with their biology and be it's master
I've been a fan of your videos for a while but I think this is my favourite video you've made. You've articulated everything so well. And I'll send this video next time someone who brings up "toxic femininity".
I can't help but also think about how Amber Heard was treated and although I believe what she did was wrong. It was upsetting to see people saying "finally women are being held accountable!!" As were statements such as, "You should never believe a woman!" or "MeTo was a mistake." It's just so frustrating how some men try to use this to prove their misogynistic opinions as right. Instead of looking at the real reason these problems occur.
I feel that positives and negatives are not a gender-specific problem. I feel that, overall, it comes down to people being bad people. They are attacking a person's well-being, which translates as either physical or emotional aggression.
Personally, I think you are overlooking the literal manifestation of toxic gender expression to make a larger point. Bit of a missing the trees for the forest kind of thing.
Like, yes, we _do_ need to be aware that enforcing or policing gender expression at all is an essentialist perspective with inherent flaws, but we also need to acknolwedge that our gender roles _very much_ affect out behavior. I define toxic gender expression as specifically when you do something toxic in the process of performing your gender. It's really important to acknowledge that _most_ people couldn't not perform their gender role if they tried(see any trans person who feels the need to come out for their own health, for example). So when an aspect of the generally accepted gender role that a person ascribes to is bad for them, or bad for other people around them, _that_ is toxic masculinity or femininity. Yes none of these traits are at all exclusive to the gender that is being toxic about them, some of them can even be simultaneously masculine _and_ feminine, but they are nonetheless harder to _avoid_ when it's something you are "supposed" to do. _That_ is why we need to adress toxic gender expression when it appears.
Sure we can talk about how "masculine" and "feminine" traits are completely arbitrary and socially constructed, but that does nothing to change that they _are_ those things to at least some people. We need to talk about how some of those traits are toxic at least as much as we need to talk about how assigning them at all is probably not constructive, because people _do_ assign them, and we're much less likely to change that.
In my humble opinion, if a man isn't being emotionally supportive of his family and close friends, he's not being the man he should be.
This commenter must not be over age 20; women have been THE blame for jezebel behavior tempting married men.
The flyleaf intro killed me.
im alive!
love your videos❤ i dont always agree with all of your views/opinion, but i think you are very good at articulating your thoughts, and you really make me question my own opinion (which is great!) thanks for your content, keep it up!
your content is awesome dude. just recently discovered your channel and the difference between your older stuff and newer stuff is stark. keep on getting better!
Humans have been engaging in various relationship dynamics throughout history, and it's essential to recognize that the inclination toward monogamy or non-monogamy varies among individuals. Cheating, rather than being exclusive to a particular gender, is influenced by complex factors such as personal values, communication, and societal norms.
It's noteworthy that the concept of monogamy is diverse across species, and humans exhibit a spectrum of relationship preferences. While some argue that humans aren't inherently monogamous, others emphasize the significance of communication and consent in relationships.
The discussion around toxic masculinity and femininity is multifaceted, with roots in societal structures like patriarchy. The perpetuation of gender norms often stems from a historical context, where patriarchies reinforce hierarchical structures. Understanding these dynamics can contribute to fostering healthier relationships and dismantling harmful stereotypes.
Patriarchy, as a social system, has historically influenced gender roles, shaping expectations for both men and women. In some instances, women may internalize these expectations, leading to the reinforcement of traditional gender norms. In the context of toxic behaviors, this can manifest as women adhering to harmful stereotypes and perpetuating the same patriarchal values that oppress them.
For example, women conditioned by patriarchal norms might engage in toxic competitiveness with other women, reinforcing the idea that success or desirability is limited and must be fiercely guarded. This not only harms women collectively but also contributes to a divisive environment that affects relationships with men as well.
Moreover, under patriarchal structures, women may feel pressured to conform to certain standards of femininity, sometimes at the expense of authentic self-expression. This internalized misogyny can lead to judgmental attitudes toward other women who deviate from these norms, creating a toxic dynamic among women themselves.
Recognizing these dynamics is crucial for fostering solidarity among women and promoting a more inclusive, equitable society that challenges harmful gender norms. Empowering women to reject toxic aspects of patriarchy is an essential step toward building healthier relationships and advancing feminism for the benefit of all genders.
I got whiplash hearing you randomly say those lyrics bc I just listened to that song 5 mins ago 😂
I feel like this goes so much deeper than gender. So much deeper than sexism, racism, homophobia, ableism, ect, ect. I feel like the issue is thinking that what a person is, (the things about a person that they cannot control, such as genetics, health, age, ect.) Define who a person is (your actions, thoughts, behaviors, how you treat other people, and yourself.) I believe we all (or at least most of us) believe this to some degree. Because we believe it to be true, it becomes true.
We assume who someone is based on what someone is. We assume what someone is based on who someone is.
This is an astonishingly beautiful video. Elliot, look at you! Well crafted, on topic, easily followed, well research. What an actual pleasure to watch!
I subscribed just a couple minutes into watching this. Then backtracked to watch the previous, where I just fell under your spell.
Not just well thought, but well spoken. Bravo, Elliot. You raise the bar. Looking forward to watching past videos.
Oh, suggestion if you read this - please link your suggested videos in the description, it will certainly help your many new followers!
But kitty 🤣🤣 Yep......
Harm that occurs laterally is not the same as harm that occurs horizontally. Thank you for this!
its peasant mentality in 2023(non feudal era) refer to people as king and queen when someone is praised.
Woah super insightful, especially the examples of how there's femininity in a seemingly masculine space and vice versa, thus making the whole gendered ideology seem wavy. Cool video!
Criticism and shame is not effective. Compassion, understanding and support is.
Really? Criticism is not effective? 🙄
Awesome video! This gave me a lot to think and makes me wonder what a social order would look like once/if we eventually break down masculine/feminine standards. Once society is more comfortable existing outside of defined gender roles, what kind of toxicity will we see?
Also curious to learn more about what toxic femininity would look like in a matriarchical (as opposed to a patriarchal) society. More of a thought experiment but so interesting!
You really hit the nail on the head in the conclusion and like so many others have been saying, this channel will 100% blow up. I love deep dives and long form content, and your channel brings a unique take to that with analyses of the sociology of pop culture.
Excited that I came across your channel and I look forward to seeing more!
Yo Elliot, you are a scholar. Subscribed 🙌
I found this video to be helpful in many ways. I felt the absolute confusion within this video and I think many of us can take to this sentiment. From my point of view it's the linear analysis of "Toxic X" that makes this discussion so confusing and troubling. I don't think either Adam nor the girl are good nor bad in this situation but instead are micro ecosystems within the greater ecosystem of patriarchy/hierarchy. Adam is being rewarded with what Rich, White, Old men get within a patriarchy that favors Rich, White, Old men. The girl on the other hand is just a commodity for Adam to enjoy, just like a ball in a game of keep-away. Understandably so many poorer, white, young men are crying out in jealousy their words of shame to the girl involved. It's easy to get bitter at Adam and the girl as well as at the people who shame Adam and the girl. This phenomena is complex and can't be taken lightly.
I've heard both sexes bash each other in typical patriarchal ways yet in the end everyone is victim, some just happen to "win" and others "lose".
i feel like ideas of toxic masculinity that you mentioned like being with multiple women are moreso perpetuated through entertainment and people our age rather than our parents and whatnot, just a thought.
Can we talk about the label we put on things and the language we use to describe things as potentially being harmful?
Like, wouldn’t you think calling these attitudes “toxic masculinity” and referring to the system that hurts both men and women as the “patriarchy” will invite others to frame it in a way that implies men are the abusers and other genders as the victims? And the inevitable counter arguments that will say “oh, obviously we’re talking about bad things that men do. Here’s the opposite of that problem, the bad things that women do!!”
Obviously it’s the fault of ignorant people who don’t fully understand these concepts before confidently speaking their mind. But I feel this is getting too predictable of a problem to not think we can save us all time by using different language
No one says that men don't engage in reputation destruction, the reason it's considered a "toxic feminine" thing is because women do it much more frequently.
Like women have the capacity to punch their partners, and some do. But when we think of DV or violence in general we tend to see it as masculine because most frequently it is men engaging in this behaviour. This should be obvious
Loved the "All Around Me" referenced
everyday i watch the views on this video go up in my sub box, elliots fame era is here 🤞🏽
You summarized what was in my head for so long but I couldn't pinpoint it. Thank you for this video :)
I was a part of the mythopoetic movement, a part of the man kind project. And I watched as it got destroyed from within. It got traction and we'd get far left essentialists coming in to tear us down, and far right grifters looking to coop what was being done. Both tore it into a hundred directions. The whole point of what we were doing was to try to tear through what it meant to be masculine, using tools and process that men who grew in a patriarchal system could understand. The whole point was to break down all the things men were told they couldn't be, and give positive reinforcement to become the person you actually are. We didn't press men to behave in a certain manner, we used ritual and community to break down what was keeping them bottled and broken, addressing issues so often ignored. It still breaks my heart to see how it became, we were allies to feminism, trying to break down the same barriers, until the enemy to those ideals took control, many of us left. Gender essentialists killed it from inside and out side. Taking what we worked on and warping it to fit their narrow minds. Assaulted from outside by feminist essentialists that didn't acknowledge the need, and reactionary men who put more emphasis on being manly than bridging the waters.
You're anti feminist leave
For me I always interpreted toxic femininity/masculinity as the 'traditional' gendered traits twisted and displayed in an unhealthy manner
For example:
Toxic masculinity - bottling up feelings and being cold due to expectations to be tough and strong
Toxic feminist - making back handed compliments and passive aggressive remarks due to expectations in regards to being nice and innocent
I have one especially glarring example of toxic femininity as per my definition above - a girl(A) from my previous education, suffering from anxiety, told another girl who was having a mental breakdown due to arachnophobia that "it isn't a big deal" and to just "calm down about it"
Later on her group of friends (all VERY nice, sweet and honest people, nerds, whom I personally trust) wanted to hold a gentle intervention about A talking bad about another girl(B) in the group behind her back, saying stuff like "B can't talk about her feelings at all, of course her bf likes me more"
Sadly, the conversation never got there, as one of the other girls(C) wanted to quickly bring up the arachnophobia situation, telling A that it wasn't fair to react like that.
A started crying and at a reunion told me, without a shred of self-awareness, that it was one of the most traumatizing experiences she had and that's why she's cut off contact with C.
Good for C tho, she deserves a better friend, one that at least tells her WHY she's cut contact, instead of avoiding her.
A was exhibiting traditional feminine traits to the max, but it often felt like her desire to be innocent and sweet overpowered her ability to reflect on her own behavior. If she was so innocent - how could she ever be in the wrong?
Why did you "toxic feminist" as opposed to "toxic femininity"
There are many layers to "Toxic feminity" one thing that people often don't discuss is the race attached to it.
White women are likely to weaponize their femininity to hurt POC women and POC men and its hardly discussed.
Since white women are usually associated with being peak "feminine" everyone else (referring to those inside America) who isn't white adjacent or assimilating to align with white girl beauty standards are often mascinlinzed.
this this this. The "purity of the white woman" has effectively been historically weaponized against POC.
That would be true if toxicity wasnt experienced on an interpersonal level. You know, like in real life? That's a universal thing, whatever race or economy youre in
@@someones_daughter_ Everyone experience toxicity that is true. I'm throwing in a true fact that white women often weaponize theirs in a specific kind of way to harm POC.
IRL that does happen. Look at the many black men murdered because a white woman lied on them and after it was found out they lied their is little to no repercussion for the action.
Or how black women are seen as masculine just because their behavior does not align with stereotypical "submissive" white women behavior. There is so much info in this that it's ridiculous to ignore. So many examples as well so do research.
All races can be toxic however the way some weaponize theirs more than others to oppress other groups needs to be discussed.
White women weaponize "toxic femininity" because they know by acting weak and like their always being attacked white men are likely to take their backs in an effort to save them even if that means murdering POC on false terms.
@@deathdragoncat black women are seen as masculine because a lot of them are masculine now clearly its because environment but don't act like its a myth
Thats true but he could do a whole video on just that 🤷♂️💀 sooooo much to unpack there
I guess I'm a little confused. When someone cheats, they're at fault. If the person they cheated with knew the person was taken, then they're at fault too. The person who was cheated on is not to blame; if your significant other isn't "meeting your needs", address the problem, or break the relationship off before getting involved with someone else. It's not that complicated. Gender isn't relevant in who to blame, and research suggests men and women cheat at roughly equal rates 🤷♂
for me Id like to talk about toxic masculinity\femininity with the terms "are expected to" followed by "which can sometimes be harmful" - this way it means the same, but doent suggest that that a certain gender is inherently toxic.
for example : "men are expected to always hide their feelings, which can sometimes be harmfull for the man and also for the women around them"
of: "women are expected to be innocent and pettied , which can sometimes be harmfull for the women and also for the men around them"
I think when framed that way, alot of decent people will tend to agree.
Just subscribed! I watched your Wife Guys video essay and thought it was great and was also recommended this one. I hope you make more video essays in the future! Really well said.
The problem with a lot of these videos that talk about the current cheating scandals (Ned, Adam, etc.,) is that when discussing blame they take the stance of “yes they both made mistakes so they both deserve some blame… but one person was MORE wrong so they deserve more blame”. I was hoping your video would be different. Sadly, that wasn’t the case.
It’s frustrating to see this because there is no real way to quantify “wrongness”. Typically, there isn’t some equation that can be done where we factor in how much we think one person was wrong versus another. For example, Adam was obviously wrong for cheating on his wife numerous times with allegedly multiple different women. He asked to use her name in the event they had a boy. We all just assumed he was being gross, but we don’t know if his wife was suggesting the name and unwilling to sway. So he cheated (somewhat discreetly) and jeopardized his family’s reputation with his actions. As well as jeopardizing his career and the ones of his band mates. However, she knowingly engaged with a married man, exposed their affair publicly (not privately to his wife), and in doing so definitely negatively impacted the lives of adams family, as well as bringing albeit negative attention (bad press is good press) to herself. It’s not as if he was a direct superior and he didn’t hold a gun to her head. It’s gross Adam Levine who has the lamest tattoos and uses any excuse to show them off while hitting the only few notes he can. She chose to engage.
In Neds situation, he was her superior and he was married. His entire image was based on him being married. If you watched, let alone worked for them, you knew he was married. Alex had her own 10yr relationship to think about. Yet, she stepped out on her relationship for THE MARRIED TRY GUY. She even met his wife, probably their offspring as well. They are both really selfish people who are equally to blame. To say that he’s more wrong because he was her boss doesn’t really mean anything. They were both clearly taking advantage of their positions and knowingly cheated on their respective partners in public. They both showed insane lack of respect to their relationships. It makes sense for the try guys to publicly come out bashing him only because of the potential legal shitstorm. Not to mention, it’s hard to come out in opposition to any woman publicly without facing backlash.
I don’t think it helps to sit here and try to allocate different percentages of blame to make ourselves feel better.
They are all consenting adults. They all knew better. They all suck.
I get that the topic of this video is toxic femininity. I just wanted to respond to the intro.
Very well summarized on how we calculate blame and the scale to which we decide who was more "wrong" - as it's almost always a reflection of all the factors of a specific situation rather than a generalized blanket decision of who was the worse human
@Anna crystal you know, I don’t disagree with majority of what you said. I don’t feel like arguing with you. I don’t know you and don’t really care if you agree with my opinion or not. You seem like the kind of person that will go back and forth with really long winded replies and I don’t have the fucks to give about people I don’t know personally and who have no direct effect in my life. Have a good one!
I think it’s awesome that you leave in minor flubs. It makes the flow of the video super organic and digestible.
Your channel was on my recommended feed and I’m so glad! Looking forward to upcoming videos :)
the floating light looks rly good!!
The factor of power can never be ignored in interpersonal conflict.
You just earned a new subscriber, my guy.
I've always seen "toxic masculinity" and "toxic femininity" as terms referring to as damaging behaviors born from and protected by hegemonic gender roles. Because what is considered masculine or feminine may vary between cultures and generations, it doesn't depend so much on what an individual may see as belonging to those categories, but instead, *how* someone may either strictly adhere to what those gender roles mean for them out of fear and anxiety, or wield those roles against others. While "gym bros" may be considered stereotypically masculine, that doesn't relate at all in my mind to toxic masculinity if their gender presentation isn't damaging or forced, either on themselves or others. Ex: a guy working out and watching sports isn't toxic masculinity, but belittling a man for not doing so or forcing ones self not to show emotion because "men don't cry" is toxic masculinity. It's the idea of masculinity being used to cause harm. Considering toxic femininity as a mirror to that, having a stereotypically "feminine" aesthetic or preferences isn't toxic femininity, because it isn't toxic. Women who belittle other women or exclude them for not adhering to hegemonic femininity, or use ideas about the nature of women being harmless in their culture to mask their abuse is toxic femininity. As a woman, I've seen this behavior a lot growing up, and I assume it's an anxiety rooted thing. A fear of being similarly targeted if you don't participate in shunning or socially targeting someone who doesn't fit in.
TLDR: IMO it's just the habit of using hegemonic gender roles to shield your shitty actions from criticism, to mask your abuse of others as justified or normal, and to protect yourself from being the target of similar abuse. Toxic femininity is real, but it's not what a lot of these guys think it is. I've primarily seen it wielded by women against women, but that's not to say it's the full extent of it by any means.
it doesn't vary
you are born with it
and it's seen the same in every culture
ofc some cultures evolved a bit differently so other factors are included too as west vs east
Hi Elliot! I've been watching your videos for a while and it makes me happy that your channel is finally taking off :) Hopefully more people get to hear your opinions and takes on stuff. You somehow manage to put in words similar thoughts and ideas that I can't verbalize correctly 😅 so I find your videos to be very helpful and insightful. Keep the good work. Saludos !!
(I've been watching you since the kpop and bts essays, enjoyed those very much but i already knew you had much more to says about different topics. Good luck in your future projects!)