I have always known that my nervous system over reacts, but I didn’t understand why. I was at work one day, I was walking past the linen room door, some came out, and the doorknob hit my elbow. My funnybone. I began to feel woozy-and I leaned up against the wall, to hold me up, to let that woozy feeling pass. I began to hear such beautiful music, and suddenly all these people were around me and I was laying on the floor. My first thought was, “Why are all these people in my room?” I didn’t just feel woozy, I completely passed out. This hadn’t happened before. Thankfully nothing this dramatic has ever happened again.
My favourite flight response was when I'd been to the fresher's disco my first term at university (1982), and I got completely overwhelmed and just started walking. By the time I came properly back into my head I was 7 miles away, and then needed to walk back! A police car pulled up because I was walking alongside the wall of a posh estate at 2AM, at which point I was very glad I was White and Middle Class...
The whole body stims suggestion for being in stuck in fight mode is great advice! That usually helps me a lot. Though I haven't been able to do the jumping/fast-spinning/throwing-my-body-into-furniture that usually helps me best lately, since I'm currently pregnant, and that's honestly been the only part about my pregnancy that's actually bothersome to me, lol. Whole body stims are the best.
Fawning is definitely my main response in many interactions with people. It's something I'd really like to stop doing, but it is SO difficult when you've grown up being told who you are and how you act isn't right. It's something that even appears in my closest relationships, like with my husband. It's so much easier to agree and give in to what he wants than to try to get my own, different opinion or desire across. Unfortunately, over 25 years of marriage that results in a sense of losing myself and what I really want. Doesn't help that I'm sure I'm AuDHD and fawning is also part of my high masking. I do think talking about my fawning with my husband when I'm not doing it would help, though. It's SO scary to think about, though!
What about starting with telling him about a recent example when you’re back to feeling safe and connected? Or writing a letter that you don’t have to share with him if you don’t want to?
This is great, I've been wanting someone to talk about polyvagal theory from an ND perspective. One thing I noticed was that you mentioned the freeze response being part of the sympathetic NS. However, I remember reading that the freeze response is a flooding of both sympathetic and parasympathetic energy - as if the gas and brakes are pressed at the same time. True, you don't move, but the energy is exploding inside of you. I don't remember if I got that from Levine or Porges or Dana or another author entirely, though.
It would be super nice if you could make a short with each response. One with flight, one with fawn, etc. That way we could share bite sizes of the videos with friends and family members, in small digestible bites 😊😊
There can be another layer of complexity to this, autonomic nerve damage from post viral illness or neuropathy, true medical conditions. I finally stopped trying to chase and control this, stopped to observe and rest in acceptance. There’s a lot we can influence and control, and I love what you said about not chasing what you can’t control! That’s what I’ve been doing. 😬 July 4th has been a nightmare for me the last few years but last night was a clear massive improvement. Onward.
Awsome you are adressing exactly what i was looking for...just started video but just had to say thank you for going here...im just now hearing learning about this theory and its very interesting to me. My sister was just late diagnosed nurodivegent all over the spectrum and makes total sense looking back at our childhood. I have 2 other sisters and yes definitely can see how nurodivegent totally fits all of us...im the youngest and probably struggle most with it though ive never had to really hide it, im much more, well, an open mess and just not very functioning in the "nurotypical world" and have very intentionally and consciously avoided people places who dont accept me and my unique ways. My Mom, super duper nurodivegent, Dad was nurotypical but he had his BA in psychology and was probably the most grounding loving accepting supportive and brilliant minded person on the planet who truly kept the whole family's balance and sanity. But he never spoke of or perhaps even really knew about nurodivegent and autism just wasnt very well understood as well as its becoming understood better now and i think he did probably have the general false ideas of what autism was, is. My Mom and him were always discussing cause effect diagnosis mental health issues picking apart everyones behaviors and why they had them, very curious intelligent minds and were always taking classes to learn more. And my dad was a 100% disabled Vietnam vet with a dozen lifes behind him that he wrote about and published a few books that were experiences hed had throughout his life. He counseled other vets at our home. My oldest sister and I turned to self medicating and the other 2 masked, bottled it all up and just crazy functioning but not ya know. As im writting though im hearing your video and holy crap your awesome! You make so much sense to me, i dont know if ive ever found anyone who really hits things so on point with how things feel for me. Your really cool i wish i had you as a friend ide maybe come out of my bubble lol.
Wow! You're fantastic!!!!! Just discovered you as I'm learning all about the Polyvagal Theory, CPTSD and Trauma Release. Functional Freeze has been my life-long default.
This makes polyvagal theory make a lot more sense! I'm a psychology/neuroscience nerd but the idea of polyvagal theory has never stuck with me because the name doesn't tell me what I need to know. Thank you for this!!! Triggered a new hyperfixation within the special interest of psych lollll
This absolutely makes sense, and might be an adaptation you don't want to get rid of, but rather want to un-shame. Maybe doing work outside of that response and reminding yourself that you did it to be safe, that you're still yourself even if you had to fawn, and that you are good and whole, regardless of what you have to do to stay safe
❤ I LOVE your examples and strategies!!! ❤ I have a slightly different understanding of the anatomy of the nervous system. Ventral is toward the head or upper. It helps us feel safe and social. Dorsal is lower. Helps our body shut down and collapse. Sympathetic is housed in the spinal cord. It is responsible for flight fight. Freeze is a mixed response like you said: sympathetic and dorsal. Fawn is mixed ventral and sympathetic. All of these are HEALTHY. It depends on the context. Sympathetic can be stuck in the ON position in many of us. So even in a safe context we feel unsafe. As far as I’m concerned, this world isn’t safe for so many people. Hyper-empathetic people are not going to feel safe when so many others are suffering. We may not even know consciously that we are responding to the suffering of the world, but our bodies know.
A thought 💭 Maybe fawning is actually about what you need in that very moment. You need to survive in that very moment, and because you’re not able to fight it off, flee from it and freeze is not an option, you might resort to the last option of fawning, in order to survive. This is my own experience from being bullied both physically and psychologically during my school years. Today as an adult, I still to a large degree find myself fawning/people pleasing. Even if there’s no actual reason for me to do so anymore. What is your thoughts on this? 😊
Totally. All of these NS responses are part of how we evolved to survive as a species, and none are bad. If you find that you’ve gotten stuck in a response that no longer meets your needs for safety, or like you said the context has changed, first of all you’re not alone. You may want to work with the trauma with a therapist. And/or move it through your body, especially across the midline of your body. This can help memories that feel ever-present onto a more coherent timeline.
@@katelynchyoga Sorry for replying late, but I didn’t see your reply until just now. The move it through your body part sounds interesting. Are there any videos on TH-cam on how to do that? 😊
I love this channel! Not only is there research and information, but also practical tips. Thank you so much for doing these videos - you really deserve more subs than you have at the moment!
Curious what researches would say about freeze and flop being dorsal or vagal. I know being frozen feels like you can’t move - but it’s nothing like actually being at rest. I would imagine it takes a lot of mental resources to override all of your instincts and keep you stuck there. At least that’s how it feels for me. And it’s just as exhausting, if not more.
Freeze is a mixed state: synthetic and dorsal. And yes it can’t be sustained for long because it is like the gas and brakes full throttle at the same time. Think of a deer 🦌 in headlights or “playing possum.” We will either decide to go up or down the polyvagal ladder depending on our nervous system’s assessment of the situation. So we will either get unstuck and flee, or if there’s no perceived hope of escape we will collapse entirely to preserve life support systems (or at least feel less pain).
Loved the video:)) also wanted to add something: Sometimes when I'm in a flop response aka dissociating and I'm not able to move my body anymore, I've found out that a good way to activate/find some safety is via eye movements, so for example looking at the horizon or moving your eyes from left to right a couple of times, so that I can easier access a state in which I can do other activation stuff:) Hope this was understandable:))
I have always known that my nervous system over reacts, but I didn’t understand why. I was at work one day, I was walking past the linen room door, some came out, and the doorknob hit my elbow. My funnybone. I began to feel woozy-and I leaned up against the wall, to hold me up, to let that woozy feeling pass. I began to hear such beautiful music, and suddenly all these people were around me and I was laying on the floor. My first thought was, “Why are all these people in my room?” I didn’t just feel woozy, I completely passed out. This hadn’t happened before. Thankfully nothing this dramatic has ever happened again.
My favourite flight response was when I'd been to the fresher's disco my first term at university (1982), and I got completely overwhelmed and just started walking. By the time I came properly back into my head I was 7 miles away, and then needed to walk back! A police car pulled up because I was walking alongside the wall of a posh estate at 2AM, at which point I was very glad I was White and Middle Class...
Yikes!
The whole body stims suggestion for being in stuck in fight mode is great advice! That usually helps me a lot. Though I haven't been able to do the jumping/fast-spinning/throwing-my-body-into-furniture that usually helps me best lately, since I'm currently pregnant, and that's honestly been the only part about my pregnancy that's actually bothersome to me, lol. Whole body stims are the best.
Congrats! How about dancing?
Fawning is definitely my main response in many interactions with people. It's something I'd really like to stop doing, but it is SO difficult when you've grown up being told who you are and how you act isn't right. It's something that even appears in my closest relationships, like with my husband. It's so much easier to agree and give in to what he wants than to try to get my own, different opinion or desire across. Unfortunately, over 25 years of marriage that results in a sense of losing myself and what I really want. Doesn't help that I'm sure I'm AuDHD and fawning is also part of my high masking. I do think talking about my fawning with my husband when I'm not doing it would help, though. It's SO scary to think about, though!
What about starting with telling him about a recent example when you’re back to feeling safe and connected? Or writing a letter that you don’t have to share with him if you don’t want to?
This is great, I've been wanting someone to talk about polyvagal theory from an ND perspective. One thing I noticed was that you mentioned the freeze response being part of the sympathetic NS. However, I remember reading that the freeze response is a flooding of both sympathetic and parasympathetic energy - as if the gas and brakes are pressed at the same time. True, you don't move, but the energy is exploding inside of you. I don't remember if I got that from Levine or Porges or Dana or another author entirely, though.
Right! It’s a mixed state. Dorsal ventral (which is parasympathetic) and sympathetic activation.
It would be super nice if you could make a short with each response. One with flight, one with fawn, etc. That way we could share bite sizes of the videos with friends and family members, in small digestible bites 😊😊
There can be another layer of complexity to this, autonomic nerve damage from post viral illness or neuropathy, true medical conditions. I finally stopped trying to chase and control this, stopped to observe and rest in acceptance. There’s a lot we can influence and control, and I love what you said about not chasing what you can’t control! That’s what I’ve been doing. 😬 July 4th has been a nightmare for me the last few years but last night was a clear massive improvement. Onward.
Thank you for explaing polyvagal theory through the neurodivergent lens! Its super needed! ❤
Very good explanation and great tips. Thanks
Awsome you are adressing exactly what i was looking for...just started video but just had to say thank you for going here...im just now hearing learning about this theory and its very interesting to me. My sister was just late diagnosed nurodivegent all over the spectrum and makes total sense looking back at our childhood. I have 2 other sisters and yes definitely can see how nurodivegent totally fits all of us...im the youngest and probably struggle most with it though ive never had to really hide it, im much more, well, an open mess and just not very functioning in the "nurotypical world" and have very intentionally and consciously avoided people places who dont accept me and my unique ways. My Mom, super duper nurodivegent, Dad was nurotypical but he had his BA in psychology and was probably the most grounding loving accepting supportive and brilliant minded person on the planet who truly kept the whole family's balance and sanity. But he never spoke of or perhaps even really knew about nurodivegent and autism just wasnt very well understood as well as its becoming understood better now and i think he did probably have the general false ideas of what autism was, is. My Mom and him were always discussing cause effect diagnosis mental health issues picking apart everyones behaviors and why they had them, very curious intelligent minds and were always taking classes to learn more. And my dad was a 100% disabled Vietnam vet with a dozen lifes behind him that he wrote about and published a few books that were experiences hed had throughout his life. He counseled other vets at our home. My oldest sister and I turned to self medicating and the other 2 masked, bottled it all up and just crazy functioning but not ya know. As im writting though im hearing your video and holy crap your awesome! You make so much sense to me, i dont know if ive ever found anyone who really hits things so on point with how things feel for me. Your really cool i wish i had you as a friend ide maybe come out of my bubble lol.
Wow! You're fantastic!!!!! Just discovered you as I'm learning all about the Polyvagal Theory, CPTSD and Trauma Release. Functional Freeze has been my life-long default.
Wow! This was a fantastic explanation and I appreciate those tips!! Thank you!❤❤❤
This makes polyvagal theory make a lot more sense! I'm a psychology/neuroscience nerd but the idea of polyvagal theory has never stuck with me because the name doesn't tell me what I need to know. Thank you for this!!! Triggered a new hyperfixation within the special interest of psych lollll
Faun is usually my default when there's no way out... Ie. Talking to police officers, supervisor, etc.. situations where getting away isn't possible
This absolutely makes sense, and might be an adaptation you don't want to get rid of, but rather want to un-shame. Maybe doing work outside of that response and reminding yourself that you did it to be safe, that you're still yourself even if you had to fawn, and that you are good and whole, regardless of what you have to do to stay safe
I love your idea of the resource roundup. I’m a big fan of networking resources. …I’m wondering, what do you do if someone isn’t a good fit?
❤ I LOVE your examples and strategies!!! ❤
I have a slightly different understanding of the anatomy of the nervous system.
Ventral is toward the head or upper. It helps us feel safe and social.
Dorsal is lower. Helps our body shut down and collapse.
Sympathetic is housed in the spinal cord. It is responsible for flight fight.
Freeze is a mixed response like you said: sympathetic and dorsal.
Fawn is mixed ventral and sympathetic.
All of these are HEALTHY. It depends on the context.
Sympathetic can be stuck in the ON position in many of us. So even in a safe context we feel unsafe.
As far as I’m concerned, this world isn’t safe for so many people. Hyper-empathetic people are not going to feel safe when so many others are suffering. We may not even know consciously that we are responding to the suffering of the world, but our bodies know.
A thought 💭 Maybe fawning is actually about what you need in that very moment. You need to survive in that very moment, and because you’re not able to fight it off, flee from it and freeze is not an option, you might resort to the last option of fawning, in order to survive.
This is my own experience from being bullied both physically and psychologically during my school years. Today as an adult, I still to a large degree find myself fawning/people pleasing. Even if there’s no actual reason for me to do so anymore.
What is your thoughts on this? 😊
Totally. All of these NS responses are part of how we evolved to survive as a species, and none are bad.
If you find that you’ve gotten stuck in a response that no longer meets your needs for safety, or like you said the context has changed, first of all you’re not alone. You may want to work with the trauma with a therapist. And/or move it through your body, especially across the midline of your body. This can help memories that feel ever-present onto a more coherent timeline.
@@katelynchyoga Sorry for replying late, but I didn’t see your reply until just now. The move it through your body part sounds interesting. Are there any videos on TH-cam on how to do that? 😊
I love this channel! Not only is there research and information, but also practical tips. Thank you so much for doing these videos - you really deserve more subs than you have at the moment!
omgggg, thank you!!! I love research and I love helping people in a practical way too, so I'm glad that you've found both those things here (:
Curious what researches would say about freeze and flop being dorsal or vagal. I know being frozen feels like you can’t move - but it’s nothing like actually being at rest. I would imagine it takes a lot of mental resources to override all of your instincts and keep you stuck there. At least that’s how it feels for me. And it’s just as exhausting, if not more.
Freeze is a mixed state: synthetic and dorsal. And yes it can’t be sustained for long because it is like the gas and brakes full throttle at the same time. Think of a deer 🦌 in headlights or “playing possum.” We will either decide to go up or down the polyvagal ladder depending on our nervous system’s assessment of the situation. So we will either get unstuck and flee, or if there’s no perceived hope of escape we will collapse entirely to preserve life support systems (or at least feel less pain).
So interesting. Thank you.
Loved the video:))
also wanted to add something:
Sometimes when I'm in a flop response aka dissociating and I'm not able to move my body anymore, I've found out that a good way to activate/find some safety is via eye movements, so for example looking at the horizon or moving your eyes from left to right a couple of times, so that I can easier access a state in which I can do other activation stuff:)
Hope this was understandable:))
@@alollipopcandy4841 yes!!! This so makes sense
Your outfit is really cute. And I'm glad I found your channel