I have BS, MS and MD degrees and am sure I have spent more time immersed in Bart Ehrman lectures, books and debates than any other single educator or topic in my academic career. What a contribution this man has made.
Living in Taiwan, where paganism lives on in the mainstream and small evangelical groups are numerous and gradually growing, gives one some insight into this process. When I first read Paul, I felt like I finally understood it more. What Bart says here is ringing true
Bart cracks me up sometimes with his enthusiasm, this is what makes him so entertaining! He puts some complex history into basic humorous storytelling...I am more of a mythicist concerning Jesus, but still can appreciate his perspectives. Sure there may have been a real Jesus-probably were 25 real Jesuses-morphed into one person and then legends took over.
_Dr Bart D Erhman is one of the world's leading experts of the gospel of judas he present an arguments base on facts, but most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it_
Just a comment on the part about the Areopagus: Greek Orthodox Christianity is still deeply ingrained in Greece. I suspect that there was more of an absorption of pre-Christian Greek culture into Christian Greek culture than is the conventional wisdom in the West. Eastern Roman Christendom lasted for over a thousand years. Much of the wreckage of pre-Christian Athens may owe as much to the struggles between the Crusaders and the Eastern Romans in the 13th Century followed by the eventual takeover of the Eastern Empire by the Ottoman Turks in the 14th-15th Centuries. Also, it was an exploding powder magazine iin 1656 that resulted in the ruined Parthenon we see today. During the Christian period, the Parthenon served as a Church -- one dedicated to a virgin, just as it had been in the pre-Christian period.
Fantastic, Bart, great work. I've been able to fill in so many blanks about things I suspected already, plus learned many new things that enlightened so many other dark areas of ignorance I was frustrated with trying to find better explanations for. Thank you so much good sir knight.
I'm a big fan of Bart's as well, but I can't believe in the Abrahamic god or any of the thousands of gods human beings have invented because I find it obvious that all gods are simply tribal gods, each reflecting the tribal cultures that invented them and the Abrahamic god is no different, being invented by a tribe of ancient Hebrews to reflect its culture and values. I also recognize that this planet is not the center of the universe but a teensy speck of cosmic dust orbiting a common star among 100s of billions of other stars with planets in a galaxy among 1000s of billions of other galaxies. To think some god created the universe and picked out our teensy speck of cosmic dust to place a special species on and that that god is obsessed with what they do with their genitals and needed to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself for rules he made up to begin with and that he was so bad at creation that he had to wipe it all out and start over but it still all went wrong, over and over. LOL the OT is nothing but stories of that god's failures at getting those nasty created humans right.
I only have an audio copy of the book (Triumph of Christianity), but the numbers aren't that hard to calculate for anyone that's interested. It doesn't take a sociologist (or an engineer like myself!) to crunch them. I'm assuming he used the normal population growth formula and accounted for some mortality rate. Perhaps Dr. Ehrman explains it in the Appendix which is sadly (but understandably) lacking from the audiobook. Continuous population growth is governed by the formula P=P_0*e^(r*t) where P = Population at time t, P_0 = Population at time 0, e is the natural number e (if you don't know what that is, just accept it's a mathematical constant used in population growth that happens to roughly equal 2.7. Your calculator knows what it is.), r is the rate of growth, and t is the time over which this growth is happening. If you want to find the necessary rate, do some algebra. (I'll put the steps at the bottom). You get: r = ln(P/P_0)/t I'll use Dr. Ehrman's numbers. P_0 is the original population of Christians at your starting year (time "zero"), which for us is 1000. P is the final population you want to reach. In this case, P=6 million. t is the number of units of time it is growing. If we start in the year 40 ("time zero") and end in the year 300, t = 300-30 = 260 years, or 26 decades. plug it all in and you get a growth rate of ~30% per decade. I'm not sure what the discrepancy is between this and the 40% being reported...Might have something to do with birth rates. But clearly 40% would be sufficient. Anyway, hope this helps reveal some of the mystery behind the way the numbers work! Steps: First, move P_0 over: P/P_0=e^(r*t) Then take the natural log of both sides. That "cancels" e. ln(P/P_0) = r*t Divide through by t (or by r, if you prefer to find time t given the rate) and you get: r=ln(P/P_0)/t EDIT: Realized the error I thought I made wasn't an error, lol.
So Bart talks about 'external' factors of the spread of Christianity - missionarying and exclusivity. Does he say anything about the internal, psychological appeal? Because if so I missed it. Ethics + righteousness? The elegance of a single God? The transcendence, the non-petty personality of this single God? The explanatory power of original sin ('why is the world messed up?'), and Jesus' sacrifice? It is, after all, a bigger, more comprehensive story than just, eg: "worship Zeus". Did the competitor religions have such stories? I mean, you can worship many gods, but you can't believe many stories.
There were early churches, but they weren't all believing the same thing, the stories those churches were teaching were different and violence between those different groups was common. Bart doesn't talk about that. Philip Jenkins has a book "Jesus Wars" that goes into all of that and how the bible was put together and why.
One of those insights which are so obvious, but only in retrospect: Most religions don't seek converts. When we hear about a missionary, we assume it's christian - because jews, buddhists, shintoists etc don't do missionary work.
Buddhism is a missionary religion. It started in India and spread throughout East and South East Asia due to missionaries. The Emperor Ashoka around 200 BC even sent missionaries to Greece.
I mentioned this in episode 1 but would take a different angle on the same conundrum here: if Jews’ theory was live and let live, then why would Paul have persecuted Christians? And you mention the small numbers originally so why would Jews go after a small faith coming from a small backwater: Nazareth. The Greek Scriptures even mention it: “has anything good ever come from Nazareth?”. There was a period much later when Jews tried forced conversions but it was later, small scale and short lived.
Bart, your main point is valid However, on a more broader sense, you completely forgot the influence of Persians who were monotheistic and Romans' main rivals! In fact, Jews were polytheists prior to their release by Persians (e.g. Ashera wife of Yahweh)! I think the Romans seeing how unifying Zoroastrian religion was among Iranians, who were called Persians then, were highly influenced by them!
Note the rise of Sassanid, who opted the doctorine of a monotheistic official religion of -oroastrianism, about 100 years before Constantine opting Christoanity!
Concerning your number crunching, I would think that with Constantine is when the numbers took off. Meaning that the Christian population was comparatively small up to that point.
Weren’t the Jews worshiping a golden calf they learned about in Egypt, and that’s why it was “I am The Lord, thy God...no other gods before me”? I always saw this as removing the last chains of Egyptian captivity... of course they would know about other gods: the ones from where they just left.
Brother you are absolutely right about what you say. According to me , the gods were created by men themselves, then there came someone who was very inteligent ansanghong said there should be one God, because to many gods would create confusion. So there was one god created, then came how to worship, there were sacrifice done and uttering some words. Brother you make your sermons too lengthy . See the way how Buddha answered a person who asked him where can I find god, or I am am in search of God. The truth is that there is no god or gods, it's all stories that never happened, we do not have any proof that persons mentioned in the bible or any other books never existed. If you want to say then say there is no god.
What kind of world would this be like if we didn't have these Religions. The law saves this world from destruction and Religion saves One soul at a time.
I wish you wouldn't shout. The audience are not kindergarteners. They are mostly adults. Speak to them as such, please. (no wonder you had a sore throat).
The verse that began trinity and idolatry I have explained, and take my explanation, BEfore Hell Fire BEfalls on you, while you are heedless O! Christians. You changed the (WORD) (BE) with Jesus, and the result of that Christians BEcame idol worshippers. Deuteronomy 4:22 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. In the beginning was the (WORD) i.e (BE), meaning the (WORD) (BE) GoD uses in the beginning of every creation. And the (WORD) i.e (BE) was with GoD, meaning (BE) is an attribute of GoD. And the (WORD) i.e (BE) was GoD, meaning every attribute of GoD is GoD. In Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there (BE) light," and there was light. Jesus was NOT the (WORD) (BE), but GoD created him with the (WORD) (BE). When they say Jesus proceeded from the father, it really means GoD said Jesus (Be) and Jesus became.
Romans 10.9 If though shall confess with your mouth lord Jesus Christ and believe God raised him from dead you will be saved. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and Life.
"19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ." (Rom. 15:19 KJV) Why can't you do that? Jesus said that anyone with faith in him should do miracles to convert infidels. Do a miracle today under verifiable conditions. If you cannot, you prove that Jesus was wrong. If you refuse, you have no authority to preach.
@@LughSummerson John 14:12 and Mark 16 Jesus said that EVERY believer would have miraculous signs following them. Christianity was supposed to be a miraculous faith, but today no Christians can do it. This proves the point.
why ehrman presents his lectures as a some kind of 3rd-rate stand-up comedian, constantly chuckling, giggling and laughing at his own half-witted "jokes"? Does he think that Christianity is inherently funny or what? Why wouldn't he go to Afghanistan and read a lecture about Islam, laughing, grinning, chuckling to a crowd of Muslims. I bet they will enjoy it.
Sonoma Calendar Why not add good humor, whit and personality into a profound command of a subject? Why be so dry and serious? I’ll always learn and remember more from a lecture taught with humor and cheer with style than some dry, sterile oratorical speech. I bet you’re more offended by his content than his form, but you can’t contradict the content so you attack his form. Maybe you should pray on it.
I have BS, MS and MD degrees and am sure I have spent more time immersed in Bart Ehrman lectures, books and debates than any other single educator or topic in my academic career. What a contribution this man has made.
I’m another MD that is spending too much time on this interesting humanities content 😂
Living in Taiwan, where paganism lives on in the mainstream and small evangelical groups are numerous and gradually growing, gives one some insight into this process. When I first read Paul, I felt like I finally understood it more. What Bart says here is ringing true
Most important lecture series I have ever heard. Wish I had heard this back in Catholic school.
Bart cracks me up sometimes with his enthusiasm, this is what makes him so entertaining! He puts some complex history into basic humorous storytelling...I am more of a mythicist concerning Jesus, but still can appreciate his perspectives. Sure there may have been a real Jesus-probably were 25 real Jesuses-morphed into one person and then legends took over.
_Dr Bart D Erhman is one of the world's leading experts of the gospel of judas he present an arguments base on facts, but most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it_
Ive found these talk really informative
Love Bart! Been reading and following his stuff alot this year
Really a shame that we only have the audio.
Great presentation nice one Mr Ehrman
Just a comment on the part about the Areopagus: Greek Orthodox Christianity is still deeply ingrained in Greece. I suspect that there was more of an absorption of pre-Christian Greek culture into Christian Greek culture than is the conventional wisdom in the West. Eastern Roman Christendom lasted for over a thousand years. Much of the wreckage of pre-Christian Athens may owe as much to the struggles between the Crusaders and the Eastern Romans in the 13th Century followed by the eventual takeover of the Eastern Empire by the Ottoman Turks in the 14th-15th Centuries. Also, it was an exploding powder magazine iin 1656 that resulted in the ruined Parthenon we see today. During the Christian period, the Parthenon served as a Church -- one dedicated to a virgin, just as it had been in the pre-Christian period.
Miracles have never ocurred.
scholar of truth enlighten the mass of ignorance of the truth.
Fantastic, Bart, great work. I've been able to fill in so many blanks about things I suspected already, plus learned many new things that enlightened so many other dark areas of ignorance I was frustrated with trying to find better explanations for. Thank you so much good sir knight.
Big fan of Bart and I believe the same thing; As long as Children Suffer, I cannot bring myself to believe in 'God'.
I'm a big fan of Bart's as well, but I can't believe in the Abrahamic god or any of the thousands of gods human beings have invented because I find it obvious that all gods are simply tribal gods, each reflecting the tribal cultures that invented them and the Abrahamic god is no different, being invented by a tribe of ancient Hebrews to reflect its culture and values. I also recognize that this planet is not the center of the universe but a teensy speck of cosmic dust orbiting a common star among 100s of billions of other stars with planets in a galaxy among 1000s of billions of other galaxies. To think some god created the universe and picked out our teensy speck of cosmic dust to place a special species on and that that god is obsessed with what they do with their genitals and needed to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself for rules he made up to begin with and that he was so bad at creation that he had to wipe it all out and start over but it still all went wrong, over and over. LOL the OT is nothing but stories of that god's failures at getting those nasty created humans right.
Every day 20,000 children under the age of 5 die. That's 7.3 million a year.
Only a sadistic 'God' would stand by ,hands crossed, and let this happen.
I only have an audio copy of the book (Triumph of Christianity), but the numbers aren't that hard to calculate for anyone that's interested. It doesn't take a sociologist (or an engineer like myself!) to crunch them. I'm assuming he used the normal population growth formula and accounted for some mortality rate. Perhaps Dr. Ehrman explains it in the Appendix which is sadly (but understandably) lacking from the audiobook.
Continuous population growth is governed by the formula
P=P_0*e^(r*t)
where P = Population at time t, P_0 = Population at time 0, e is the natural number e (if you don't know what that is, just accept it's a mathematical constant used in population growth that happens to roughly equal 2.7. Your calculator knows what it is.), r is the rate of growth, and t is the time over which this growth is happening.
If you want to find the necessary rate, do some algebra. (I'll put the steps at the bottom). You get:
r = ln(P/P_0)/t
I'll use Dr. Ehrman's numbers. P_0 is the original population of Christians at your starting year (time "zero"), which for us is 1000. P is the final population you want to reach. In this case, P=6 million. t is the number of units of time it is growing. If we start in the year 40 ("time zero") and end in the year 300, t = 300-30 = 260 years, or 26 decades. plug it all in and you get a growth rate of ~30% per decade. I'm not sure what the discrepancy is between this and the 40% being reported...Might have something to do with birth rates. But clearly 40% would be sufficient.
Anyway, hope this helps reveal some of the mystery behind the way the numbers work!
Steps:
First, move P_0 over:
P/P_0=e^(r*t)
Then take the natural log of both sides. That "cancels" e.
ln(P/P_0) = r*t
Divide through by t (or by r, if you prefer to find time t given the rate) and you get:
r=ln(P/P_0)/t
EDIT: Realized the error I thought I made wasn't an error, lol.
7:53 Well, this is a great argument for going back in time and killing Paul of Tarsus before he hijacked christianity.
Well, it is not better to fear only one god than many hundreds?
Beauty of Christinity just hold on FAITH you be savior.
So Bart talks about 'external' factors of the spread of Christianity - missionarying and exclusivity. Does he say anything about the internal, psychological appeal? Because if so I missed it. Ethics + righteousness? The elegance of a single God? The transcendence, the non-petty personality of this single God? The explanatory power of original sin ('why is the world messed up?'), and Jesus' sacrifice? It is, after all, a bigger, more comprehensive story than just, eg: "worship Zeus". Did the competitor religions have such stories? I mean, you can worship many gods, but you can't believe many stories.
he is a real expert
Bart Ehrman is the Josephus of 21st century, but only a less biased and more qualified than Josephus.
There were early churches, but they weren't all believing the same thing, the stories those churches were teaching were different and violence between those different groups was common. Bart doesn't talk about that. Philip Jenkins has a book "Jesus Wars" that goes into all of that and how the bible was put together and why.
yup.. Prof Bart is academician and christian historian.. He concern more his brothers and sisters..
One of those insights which are so obvious, but only in retrospect: Most religions don't seek converts.
When we hear about a missionary, we assume it's christian - because jews, buddhists, shintoists etc don't do missionary work.
Buddhism is a missionary religion. It started in India and spread throughout East and South East Asia due to missionaries. The Emperor Ashoka around 200 BC even sent missionaries to Greece.
I mentioned this in episode 1 but would take a different angle on the same conundrum here: if Jews’ theory was live and let live, then why would Paul have persecuted Christians? And you mention the small numbers originally so why would Jews go after a small faith coming from a small backwater: Nazareth. The Greek Scriptures even mention it: “has anything good ever come from Nazareth?”. There was a period much later when Jews tried forced conversions but it was later, small scale and short lived.
Bart, your main point is valid However, on a more broader sense, you completely forgot the influence of Persians who were monotheistic and Romans' main rivals! In fact, Jews were polytheists prior to their release by Persians (e.g. Ashera wife of Yahweh)! I think the Romans seeing how unifying Zoroastrian religion was among Iranians, who were called Persians then, were highly influenced by them!
Note the rise of Sassanid, who opted the doctorine of a monotheistic official religion of -oroastrianism, about 100 years before Constantine opting Christoanity!
And note the rise of Christianity in the Eastern Rome rather than Western side!
Concerning your number crunching, I would think that with Constantine is when the numbers took off. Meaning that the Christian population was comparatively small up to that point.
The growth of Christians perhaps should also include people leaving and dying.
Ask what were the attracting points of monotheism? And perhaps early Christianity knew very well the art of advertising.
Christianity and Islam are proselytizing religions paganism is not. How can paganism be said to have been lost
Weren’t the Jews worshiping a golden calf they learned about in Egypt, and that’s why it was “I am The Lord, thy God...no other gods before me”? I always saw this as removing the last chains of Egyptian captivity... of course they would know about other gods: the ones from where they just left.
It is like someone comes along and says from now on you're going to burn in hell for drinking coffee you can only drink water.
PAGAN GODS? 52:38
Brother you are absolutely right about what you say. According to me , the gods were created by men themselves, then there came someone who was very inteligent ansanghong said there should be one God, because to many gods would create confusion. So there was one god created, then came how to worship, there were sacrifice done and uttering some words. Brother you make your sermons too lengthy . See the way how Buddha answered a person who asked him where can I find god, or I am am in search of God. The truth is that there is no god or gods, it's all stories that never happened, we do not have any proof that persons mentioned in the bible or any other books never existed. If you want to say then say there is no god.
80 to 85% illiteracy is the answer i guess plus the administrative resource
What kind of world would this be like if we didn't have these Religions. The law saves this world from destruction and Religion saves One soul at a time.
Who the hell reads these long winded comments below??????
Your comment is short winded.
I wish you wouldn't shout. The audience are not kindergarteners. They are mostly adults. Speak to them as such, please. (no wonder you had a sore throat).
The verse that began trinity and idolatry I have explained, and take my explanation, BEfore Hell Fire BEfalls on you, while you are heedless O! Christians. You changed the (WORD) (BE) with Jesus, and the result of that Christians BEcame idol worshippers.
Deuteronomy 4:22 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
In the beginning was the (WORD) i.e (BE), meaning the (WORD) (BE) GoD uses in the beginning of every creation. And the (WORD) i.e (BE) was with GoD, meaning (BE) is an attribute of GoD. And the (WORD) i.e (BE) was GoD, meaning every attribute of GoD is GoD. In Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there (BE) light," and there was light. Jesus was NOT the (WORD) (BE), but GoD created him with the (WORD) (BE). When they say Jesus proceeded from the father, it really means GoD said Jesus (Be) and Jesus became.
How are you sure that Christians replaced the word 'be' with Christ?
Bart Ehrman makes phylosophie why and how Paul preach in Athens ... this has nothing to do with historical evidences ....
Romans 10.9 If though shall confess with your mouth lord Jesus Christ and believe God raised him from dead you will be saved. Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and Life.
"19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ." (Rom. 15:19 KJV)
Why can't you do that? Jesus said that anyone with faith in him should do miracles to convert infidels. Do a miracle today under verifiable conditions. If you cannot, you prove that Jesus was wrong. If you refuse, you have no authority to preach.
Mark Anthony haha...nah
The Bible is the claim, not the evidence.
@@LughSummerson
John 14:12 and Mark 16 Jesus said that EVERY believer would have miraculous signs following them.
Christianity was supposed to be a miraculous faith, but today no Christians can do it.
This proves the point.
why ehrman presents his lectures as a some kind of 3rd-rate stand-up comedian, constantly chuckling, giggling and laughing at his own half-witted "jokes"? Does he think that Christianity is inherently funny or what? Why wouldn't he go to Afghanistan and read a lecture about Islam, laughing, grinning, chuckling to a crowd of Muslims. I bet they will enjoy it.
Sonoma Calendar Why not add good humor, whit and personality into a profound command of a subject? Why be so dry and serious? I’ll always learn and remember more from a lecture taught with humor and cheer with style than some dry, sterile oratorical speech. I bet you’re more offended by his content than his form, but you can’t contradict the content so you attack his form. Maybe you should pray on it.