Honestly all of the big conflicts in continuity within the MG series really serve the purpose of promoting one of its biggest themes, that being that you cannot always trust the information you're given, as those in control of information can manipulate it to make people believe only what they want them to. The Patriots manipulating history and the information that is known about it parallels all of the continuity errors, and we as the players are not meant to follow blindly what we are told by any certain game or games in the series, but to form our own interpretations. The idea that Portable Ops isnt canon simply because Kojima just served as producer on it, and the extreme insistence of many fans of that idea, only proves that what the people believe can be controlled by those who present the information to the people. So dont ask whether something is a lie or if its true, as no information is absolute, but use the information to form an interpretation all your own, your own truth, your own beliefs, whether it be for a narative such as metal gear, or something in the "real" world. Because no matter what, the only thing thats true isn't the existence of something in a book, but the existence of the person who wrote it. The La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo are always watching.
@@dansmith1661 My source is that in Metal Gear 2 there's an optional radio call that says Big Boss was resurrected with cybernetics, either eliminating the possibility of Venom Snakes death as said in the timeline at the end of MGSV OR that statement which is intended to be taken as fact being confirmed to be a lie. Neither of these two conflicting explanations are never backed up and you can take whichever one you want as canon, but one or both was given by someone who made it the fuck up.
@@logandothewarlock6043 if you ask me mgsv is that reason, its clear Kojima didn't come up the "story" of v, during the msx games or after, originally there was one big boss and that was it, there's tons of retcons we can discuss but i cba, i dont know if these differences are because of unfocused writing, or because its intentional, as Kojima intended, mgsv was that perfect example of not everything we saw made sense, there no facts just interpretations but i do believe that's all intentional, i think people bitching about what's canon and retcons is that example the need for "truth", and do to what they will with it, although with that been said "naked snake" so where's the truth" "eva its buried in the lies", its just the same with big boss been made into a overly fabricated icon, its a information war with every character in the game with there interpretation's, make us questions the true narrative with the provided context, its not just "venom snake" that is "us" viewer its Raiden too, solid snakes speech at the end clarifies all these points you made really well done , although with the great text you made, i dont believe everything's just ciphers manipulation of information we may not of seen what they accomplished behind the scenes, but mgs does have have a "truth" an atonement, a revelation, free from "control" hence the religious themes and that is all confirmed in mgs4 that lays to rest a great series,
@@mycardboardbox Yes I totally agree, I don't think EVERYTHING is manipulated by cipher but it's impossible to say none of it is. Like what EVA said there is a truth, it's just hidden within the lies, and determining what those lies are is the part that's up to interpretation.
Weirdly, I feel the same way about the Legend of Zelda series. So many people get bent out of shape about co continuity/timelines, when they’re missing that those stores are *legends.*
Big Boss had to be watching everything behind the scenes while in Zanzibar Land. His phantom had already knew who he was and went above & beyond to kill Solid Snake after fulfill his mission. Unbeknownst to Snake, the real Big Boss was waiting to confront his son to test him in Zanzibar. Both events left a lasting, hardened impact on Solid Snake himself
How could the original comment on this thread get 47 likes when the comment itself is completely upside down and backwards? This is the only proof I need to understand how completely lost the new crop of MGS fans really are.
My take on everything is that Venom learned the truth in 1984, embraced his destiny, and continued working with the real Big Boss from a distance…at least for a while. Chapter 3 of MGSV, if you ask me, would’ve been about Diamond Dogs discovering the location that would ultimately become Outer Heaven. My take is that it’s serving as an XOF hideout, but Big Boss arranges a deal with the South African government to have DD kick them out and take the place over, in exchange for being South Africa’s apartheid enforcer and anticommunist deterrent against Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Namibian rebels, Angola, etc. Diamond Dogs relegating the Seychelles Mother Base to a FOB as they move to South Africa pisses off Kaz and he eventually leaves, heading into early retirement. Ocelot departs to help Big Boss get reintegrated with FOXHOUND and also round up some highly skilled mercenaries to serve as Venom’s right-hand men. When Diamond Dogs take over the place, they discover XOF forcibly “hired” a replacement scientist for Huey: Dr. Drago Madnar. He was working on inventing a new Metal Gear, much simpler to construct, maintain, and use than Sahelanthropus. Venom Snake and Ocelot are intrigued by this and decide to have him continue his work with access to Huey’s notes and anything else he left behind in his lab when he was kicked out of DD. This leads to Madnar reverse-engineering Walker Gear, making it bigger and nuclear-equipped; TX-55 is born. Sometime between MGSV and MG1, Venom Snake agrees to Madnar’s idea to undergo a surgery done by robotic instruments, with help from prototype nanomachine injections, to finally remove the shrapnel horn without causing a brain hemorrhage. The surgery is successful, but the nanomachines mess with Venom’s psyche and basically make him go insane. He becomes sadistic, downright evil, embracing his moniker as a “demon.” He also begins acting erratically, not sticking to Big Boss’s long-term plans. By 1995, Venom is considered by BB to have gone rogue. Things come to a head when Outer Heaven declares themselves to be an independent “mercenary republic” in response to South Africa banning the creation and storage of nuclear weapons within their borders. The UN becomes highly suspicious that Outer Heaven has nukes, and demands FOXHOUND investigate. N312 and N313 begin…
This is a good approximation of what likely would have happened, but I think the latter part of Venom becoming erratic and going against BB plans doesn't match with the final cutscene of MGSV would imply I think, that he remained loyal to the end to serve BB's dream.
big boss used us (the player) as a phantom through a proxy (the medic) to help build his legend and as a decoy, medic lost parts of his body, has ptsd, still feels bad for paz, he has pieces of her bones in his skull and near his heart, dies at the end of solud snake, meanwhile in the future solid snake will help raiden be his own self, raiden even throws away the dogtags with our name on it at the end of mgs2, to me mgs2 and V are very related and show how "evil" big boss actually is, venom>big boss
It was never Big Boss idea. Ocelot and zero though of that he was going along with it. Big Boss and Venom had no idea solid snake will succeed they wanted him to fail
@@adrianb714 he was ok with it and thats enough for me, he took our identity and ran away with it while venom carried his sins, yeah they expected solid snake to fail but wasnt he mad to be used as a pawn before? he has no problems using people as pawns himself
I think it's genuinely stupid that Konami is choosing to remake what's arguably the best Metal Gear Solid title instead of remaking the MSX games. Far too many people continue to get the information of these plots wrong, and those first two stories still have never been fully dubbed with voice acting.
big boss used us (the player) as a phantom through a proxy (the medic) to help build his legend and as a decoy, medic lost parts of his body, has ptsd, still feels bad for paz, he has pieces of her bones in his skull and near his heart, dies at the hands of solid snake, meanwhile in the future solid snake will help raiden be his own self, raiden even throws away the dogtags with our name on it at the end of mgs2, to me mgs2 and V are very related and show how "evil" big boss actually is, venom>big boss (i had to repost my comment because i couldnt edit the first one sorry)
Have you ever thought of the possibility that Venom Snake is actually Gray Fox. Now hear me out. There's quite a lot of foreshadowing in MGSV. When you complete the game, the achievement that you unlock is 'Awarded the code name Fox' which only Gray Fox achieved. We hear multiple times over the series that Gray Fox was his most trusted soldier When the Cyborg Ninja starts hitting his head on the ground in MGS1, it's on the same side where the shrapnel would be on Venoms head. When Eli first encounters Venom Snake, he pushes him into the wall foreshadowing Liquid Snake crushing the ninja in MGS1. When Venom Snake has to kill his men to stop the virus, the bloody walls look very similar to the walls in MGS1 just before you fight the ninja. There's actually a lot more theories out there but I think it's something worth looking into.
its not possible gray fox was in Rhodesia in 1979 bud venom was in a coma at that point, and quiet been chico is fucking ridiculous 😂 i love theories but some need to be backed by some evidence or there just ludicrous, there is nothing to suggest venom snake is Gray fox in the timeline, as big boss says "let it go my son", still its a cool idea tho 👍
@@mycardboardbox if someone told you prior to The Phantom Pain that the Big Boss that Snake defeated before wasn't the real Big Boss, I don't think a single Metal Gear fan would believe it. Anything's possible in this universe
@@phantomsnake7910 that's absolutely true. Which is why V isn't canon to the rest of the series, directed by Kojima or not. Believe me or don't, but both MGS4 and Peace Walker invalidate V as canon. By the way, I was joking about that old Chico/Quiet thing.
The first Indochina war does align sorta nicely. But so could the beginning of the Vietnam War not long after the previous one ended. My thought process was that Big Boss first encountered him (but did not recognize him as Gray Fox) when he went to Vietnam with Python. (Likely in the mid to late 50s). Then, he recognized him the second time in Mozambique. Gray fox remembers the first time while Big Boss does not. That's the best I've got.
Weird how older big boss is always voice by someone else besides David hayter. Even Solidus had a separate voice actor. Yet young Naked snake sounds likr Solid
45:41 so i have a theory that what big boss meant by that is they’re human beings being used. Or more accurately soldiers being used against another soldier. While John doesn’t consider David or Eli his sons he doesn’t see them as something less than human beings.
Oh no. The writing was on the wall the moment he pulled the trigger on his mentor in 64. He got to see first hand what betrayal truly was. What the Boss did was one thing, what Zero did was far worse.
Portable Ops is the only game that really does mess with the timeline of the series and cause any out-and-out retcons. It's the reason they keep zigzagging whether it's canon or not. I'm in the "it's not" camp for that reason. You really can get away with ignoring it as well as it's basically filler. The only really important point (Null) actually diminishes the tragedy of Frank being unable to adjust to a life out of combat and how what happens to him in MGS1 perpetuates that misery.
@@subtegral Nah, V's contributions to the story just get a bad rap because the game itself wasn't finished. It's why a ton of conversations got relegated to tapes and chats in the back of a truck - there wasn't time to mocap/animate the cutscenes and work them into the game in a meaningful way because Konami decided to get rid of Kojima and tell the team to just release what they had. Also your entire counterargument amounted to "no you're wrong because I said so, now let me attack something else to somehow back me up." Nice work.
@@subtegral your dropping truth nukes, mgsv is not unfinished there was just "cut content" but that's happened a few times in the series of mgs, its a great game and stands out, but it just lacks that something the others did better
Agree to disagree, Punish snake and Naked Snake are not perfect but, innocent and they were set up by Zero and Ocelot. Funny nobody sees Zero and Ocelot relationship being real evil instead Always put the Blame on Both Boss. Solid Snake also screwed up many of his mission too. Pyscho Mantis is a big Liquid Snake aid to become the next ruthless.
You forget the part about how Big Boss did the same thing The Boss did in MGS3 by getting himself killed inorder to for fill his own mission. But he was just A trader, wasn't he? 🚫🤫
The cassette and truth scene is after the events of outer heaven. The cassette itself tells you it’s a farewell from the original to the phantom. Carry that where ever you go. From here on out you’re big boss. Also the Zanzibar Big Boss is known to have cybernetic limbs. I don’t understand why many hardcore fans keep pushing the narrative the phantom died in outer heaven when that’s not the case. Also Diamond Dogs are the only ones who took in children something that Zanzibar did as well. Outer heaven never did such thing. Also Zanzibar got rid of nuclear weapons and then it began to establish itself as the true super power of the world. The games fill in the gaps just have to be really well versed with the lore
no your wrong how would that be possible, why would big boss tell venom snake the truth of his identity and to take the "title" big boss after outer heaven, it makes no sense whatsoever when the whole idea once big boss established it he would pass it to his phantom , 😂 the dialogue in the msx game destroys your statement, venom snake says to solid snake he's big boss, plus the official metal gear wikis confirms "the phantoms dies" in outer heaven, and where anywhere in the Zanzibar game on the msx confirms big boss has a cybernetic arm? tf, when in mgs 4 it was confirmed his body parts where put together with pieces of solidus body and liquids after he was caught in the blast in Zanzibar and where in my video did i mention that outer heaven took in children??? and once again you clearly dont know what your talking about because big boss would have metal gear d established in Zanzibar land that was nuclear equipped, that was the deterrence against other nation states The intro to the game and the instruction manual mention that nuclear weapons had been completely abandoned by the time of the main plot, making Zanzibar Land the world's sole nuclear power, and yes i am a hardcore fan because i know what I'm talking about and so do many others who would think this is nonsense
I still don't know how I feel about the twist at the end of MGSV. It kinda made the game feel like a big side quest instead of a big meaningful chapter.
That can honestly be said of anything released after MGS4. Everything we needed to know about Metal Gear's history had already been revealed. Peace Walker and MGSV weren't absolute necessities for the overall story of Metal Gear, and Revengeance was clearly made as its own thing after KojiPro realized they couldn't finish the project.
The cassette tape from Big Boss to Venom would have had to be received by Venom the very day before Gray Fox arrives at Outer Heaven. How else would Big Boss have an operation name already set up for it? After all, NATO forced Big Boss to send a FoxHound operative (Gray Fox) to investigate Outer Heaven. V (the letter V for Venom, not the Roman numeral for 5) isn't canon. It's simply the hypnagogic hallucination of the player. Nothing more. The real MGS5 is actually Peace Walker. Now ask yourself if you really believe the Big Boss of Peace Walker, and especially the Big Boss described in MGS4, would agree to being body doubled by Cipher/ Zero. Have you ever wondered why the "Big Boss" of Ground Zeroes (and Ishmael in TPP) sound like the chopper medic (Venom) instead of the real Big Boss? (Hayter) Have you ever wondered why in Ground Zeroes Kaz tells "Big Boss" that he can't believe they both fell for Paz's cover story, instead of what really happened at the end of Peace Walker - that Kaz confessed to Big Boss that he actually knew about Paz and Cipher all along? Have you ever wondered why, when Venom is killed, it never triggers a time paradox as it does for other characters who actually matter to the future timeline? It's because Venom isn't part of the future timeline. All of V is a hypnagogic hallucination. It never actually happened. It’s the player's own wet dream - hence non-canon. In fact, here's proof from Metal Gear Solid 4 - from the real Big Boss himself - that V isn’t canon: "In order to fool the system (the Patriot AI) Ocelot used nanomachines, psychotherapy, and hypnotic suggestion to transplant Liquid's personality onto his own, and turn himself into Liquid's doppelganger. But for all their advances in nano-technology, information and genetic control, they've never managed to control people at will, LET ALONE TURN ONE PERSON TOTALLY INTO ANOTHER... but cats do love to play as snakes". - The Real Big Boss, 2014
"... they've never managed to control people at will, let alone turn one person totally into another" - Big Boss to Solid Snake, MGS4. MGS4 directly invalidates the canonicity of V. And so does the final (post credits) ending of the original Metal Gear that shows that Big Boss survived. There simply was no Venom Snake in Metal Gear 1987 - a Kojima retcon attempt 28 years later doesn't make it so. Yes, this is my theory for a game that was literally shoe-horned into the series where it wasn't needed, but every point I made can easily be verified within the games. And they're all good questions to think about.. A time paradox is always triggered whenever Big Boss gets killed in MGS3.. and so does killing any character in V (and MGS3) that actually matters to the future timeline - anyone except Venom. Why ditch David Hayter for Sutherland? I mean seriously ponder that question. Even Hayter was dumbfounded by the choice. I believe the reason is because no actual Big Boss is ever in V. In Ground Zeroes, why does Kaz have a different story about Paz than the actual ending of Peace Walker? Can we at least agree that the player is Venom Snake? Well, the Camp Omega mission was in Venom's mind. Which means MSF Outer Heaven's Mother Base was never destroyed. Which means Ground Zeroes never happened. Which means The Phantom Pain never happened. Which means... all of V is the player's own fantasy hallucination to become Big Boss. It's just another "brilliant" Kojima misdirection switcheroo so that he can feel special over the masses again. Another Kojima ego tug job. But hey, thanks for reading bro.
@@saintpepsi8602Hey man, I appreciate your support. There's also something else. EVA said in MGS4... "Zero recovered their bodies" (Big Boss and Gray Fox from Zanzibar in 1999) I bring this up because EVA literally said "Zero", not "The Patriots". But according to V, Zero was basically brain-dead long before 1999. And before anyone asks "well how and why was Zero basically brain-dead by MGS4?" .. the real answer is simple: his health and age. He was 105. According to MGS3, Zero was born in 1909. No vocal cord parasite mumbo jumbo is required to explain it. Have you ever really wondered why Kojima chose to not use a 5 but instead a V? People always assume it's simply a Roman numeral that also means Venom (V has come to) even when the series has never used Roman numerals. Look up "Metal Gear Solid 5 Peace Walker" in images. Kojima originally considered Peace Walker to be MGS5 but Konami changed it during marketing because it wasn't a PS3 game. Hell, Kojima even confirmed the meaning of the letter V in a tweet. Here is what he said, copy and pasted: "Not MGS5, but MGSV. My thought in it. V has come to". My theory probably isn't exactly what Kojima intended, but it still falls in line with his overall concept of "the player becomes part of the series itself". Are we willing to invalidate the canonicity of MGS4 in order to support the canonicity of V? So if V is invalidated as part of the actual canon, then what happened between Peace Walker and Metal Gear? We already know. Big Boss could no longer trust Kaz, so he fired him and eventually moved MSF from the Caribbean to a land-based site in Central Africa (probably right after the Gulf War, 1992) Once the new location was established he immediately returned to the U.S. and re-assumed command of FoxHound (which he originally established in 1971) We know that Big Boss went on many adventures during the 80's. He helped Frank Jaeger with Naomi Hunter in Rhodesia. He helped a young Sniper Wolf from her horrible existence and gave her a new meaning for her life, he got into contact with a young Liquid. And when David joined FoxHound in 1995 from the Green Berets, he actually assigned him the codename of Solid Snake, knowing he was one of his clones (EVA verified this in MGS4) So it's not difficult to believe that Big Boss had soldiers he could trust at Outer Heaven while he was hiding in plain sight in the U.S. (by separating himself from the newly established "Outer Heaven" nation, he was able to avoid suspicion) Those trusted soldiers he left behind at Outer Heaven were obviously the team that captured Gray Fox and tried to stop Solid Snake. Yes, Dirty Duck and Company. 😆 None of this required an elaborate body double/ doppelganger fake-out. And as for Big Boss arriving right when Snake destroyed Metal Gear TX-55, well that's even easier to explain. Big Boss was never far away, since he was always in contact with Snake via wavelength radio. Metal Gear never said that Big Boss remained across the ocean in the U.S. during FoxHound's Outer Heaven infiltration mission (Operation Intrude N313) Anyway, to anyone who actually reads all this, thanks, it's been a catharsis for me. 😅
@@subtegralHey man that theory is freaking amazing and actually makes the most sense out of pretty much anything regarding MGSV. But one thing I find really interesting is how Ocelot describes himself being brainwashed to believe V is Big Boss, that being the word "doublethink". (My bad if you know what it means already but I'm just gonna explain for anyone reading) Doublethink comes from 1984 by George Orwell, which served as heavy inspiration for MGSV and it basically means that someone believes two contradicting truths at the same time. The interesting thing is that the timeline presented at the end of MGSV and pretty much any story layout created after V (including the stuff in the Master Collection) takes Venom as canon, despite the obvious contradictions you pointed out. I think that idea of doublethink essentially describes how many interpret Metal Gear lore and story, blindly believing whatever they're told as total truth, when the contradictions are right there, and the games that present contradictions are also blindly believed. It essentially proves the idea that the Metal Gear series presents that information and what people believe can be manipulated just like what the Patriots do. My point in saying this is that the MG series (its story anyway), imo, is not ever meant to taken literally/at face value 100%. What the "true" canonicity and timeline of the games really is is up to the player. I think your theory extenuates all of the stuff I mentioned, and how players fell "in love with the legend" so much that they've become blind to the lies staring them in the face, creating a state of doublethink, a state of fantasy as you describe.
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Honestly all of the big conflicts in continuity within the MG series really serve the purpose of promoting one of its biggest themes, that being that you cannot always trust the information you're given, as those in control of information can manipulate it to make people believe only what they want them to. The Patriots manipulating history and the information that is known about it parallels all of the continuity errors, and we as the players are not meant to follow blindly what we are told by any certain game or games in the series, but to form our own interpretations. The idea that Portable Ops isnt canon simply because Kojima just served as producer on it, and the extreme insistence of many fans of that idea, only proves that what the people believe can be controlled by those who present the information to the people. So dont ask whether something is a lie or if its true, as no information is absolute, but use the information to form an interpretation all your own, your own truth, your own beliefs, whether it be for a narative such as metal gear, or something in the "real" world. Because no matter what, the only thing thats true isn't the existence of something in a book, but the existence of the person who wrote it. The La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo are always watching.
Interesting take Senator, but do you have the source to back that up?
@@dansmith1661 My source is that in Metal Gear 2 there's an optional radio call that says Big Boss was resurrected with cybernetics, either eliminating the possibility of Venom Snakes death as said in the timeline at the end of MGSV OR that statement which is intended to be taken as fact being confirmed to be a lie. Neither of these two conflicting explanations are never backed up and you can take whichever one you want as canon, but one or both was given by someone who made it the fuck up.
@@logandothewarlock6043 if you ask me mgsv is that reason, its clear Kojima didn't come up the "story" of v, during the msx games or after, originally there was one big boss and that was it, there's tons of retcons we can discuss but i cba, i dont know if these differences are because of unfocused writing, or because its intentional, as Kojima intended, mgsv was that perfect example of not everything we saw made sense, there no facts just interpretations but i do believe that's all intentional, i think people bitching about what's canon and retcons is that example the need for "truth", and do to what they will with it, although with that been said "naked snake" so where's the truth" "eva its buried in the lies", its just the same with big boss been made into a overly fabricated icon, its a information war with every character in the game with there interpretation's, make us questions the true narrative with the provided context, its not just "venom snake" that is "us" viewer its Raiden too, solid snakes speech at the end clarifies all these points you made really well done , although with the great text you made, i dont believe everything's just ciphers manipulation of information we may not of seen what they accomplished behind the scenes, but mgs does have have a "truth" an atonement, a revelation, free from "control" hence the religious themes and that is all confirmed in mgs4 that lays to rest a great series,
@@mycardboardbox Yes I totally agree, I don't think EVERYTHING is manipulated by cipher but it's impossible to say none of it is. Like what EVA said there is a truth, it's just hidden within the lies, and determining what those lies are is the part that's up to interpretation.
Weirdly, I feel the same way about the Legend of Zelda series. So many people get bent out of shape about co continuity/timelines, when they’re missing that those stores are *legends.*
Big Boss had to be watching everything behind the scenes while in Zanzibar Land. His phantom had already knew who he was and went above & beyond to kill Solid Snake after fulfill his mission. Unbeknownst to Snake, the real Big Boss was waiting to confront his son to test him in Zanzibar. Both events left a lasting, hardened impact on Solid Snake himself
No he was still in foxhound during the outer heaven incident and Big Boss is made both outer heaven and Zanzibar land
He fought the real big boss in outer heaven and fought the phantom in Zanzibar
It's the other way around @@justinleecortez
How could the original comment on this thread get 47 likes when the comment itself is completely upside down and backwards?
This is the only proof I need to understand how completely lost the new crop of MGS fans really are.
@@subtegral Bot voters
My take on everything is that Venom learned the truth in 1984, embraced his destiny, and continued working with the real Big Boss from a distance…at least for a while.
Chapter 3 of MGSV, if you ask me, would’ve been about Diamond Dogs discovering the location that would ultimately become Outer Heaven. My take is that it’s serving as an XOF hideout, but Big Boss arranges a deal with the South African government to have DD kick them out and take the place over, in exchange for being South Africa’s apartheid enforcer and anticommunist deterrent against Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Namibian rebels, Angola, etc. Diamond Dogs relegating the Seychelles Mother Base to a FOB as they move to South Africa pisses off Kaz and he eventually leaves, heading into early retirement. Ocelot departs to help Big Boss get reintegrated with FOXHOUND and also round up some highly skilled mercenaries to serve as Venom’s right-hand men.
When Diamond Dogs take over the place, they discover XOF forcibly “hired” a replacement scientist for Huey: Dr. Drago Madnar. He was working on inventing a new Metal Gear, much simpler to construct, maintain, and use than Sahelanthropus. Venom Snake and Ocelot are intrigued by this and decide to have him continue his work with access to Huey’s notes and anything else he left behind in his lab when he was kicked out of DD. This leads to Madnar reverse-engineering Walker Gear, making it bigger and nuclear-equipped; TX-55 is born.
Sometime between MGSV and MG1, Venom Snake agrees to Madnar’s idea to undergo a surgery done by robotic instruments, with help from prototype nanomachine injections, to finally remove the shrapnel horn without causing a brain hemorrhage. The surgery is successful, but the nanomachines mess with Venom’s psyche and basically make him go insane. He becomes sadistic, downright evil, embracing his moniker as a “demon.” He also begins acting erratically, not sticking to Big Boss’s long-term plans.
By 1995, Venom is considered by BB to have gone rogue. Things come to a head when Outer Heaven declares themselves to be an independent “mercenary republic” in response to South Africa banning the creation and storage of nuclear weapons within their borders. The UN becomes highly suspicious that Outer Heaven has nukes, and demands FOXHOUND investigate. N312 and N313 begin…
This is a good approximation of what likely would have happened, but I think the latter part of Venom becoming erratic and going against BB plans doesn't match with the final cutscene of MGSV would imply I think, that he remained loyal to the end to serve BB's dream.
Crazy how whole mg saga turns around Zero who has some 5 minutes of screen time in total.
for me it was more insane how much difference Sigint made considering i didn't call him once in my first mgs3 playthrough and forgot he existed
@@aapelikananena9699 Or how EVA was so important for the timeline despite she dissapeared after Snake eater
@@rockcaster1091 I mean, she does come back as Big Mama in MGS4. but she does then die in same game so you have a point
Is Zero all throughout Peace Walker and Portable Ops?
@seph--- portable ops yes, peace walker no iirc
Operation intrude, the infiltration of Outer Heaven, the deah of Venom Snake 1995
big boss used us (the player) as a phantom through a proxy (the medic) to help build his legend and as a decoy, medic lost parts of his body, has ptsd, still feels bad for paz, he has pieces of her bones in his skull and near his heart, dies at the end of solud snake, meanwhile in the future solid snake will help raiden be his own self, raiden even throws away the dogtags with our name on it at the end of mgs2, to me mgs2 and V are very related and show how "evil" big boss actually is, venom>big boss
Deep shit. Didnt connect until now that Raiden is Snake's Venom.
It was never Big Boss idea. Ocelot and zero though of that he was going along with it. Big Boss and Venom had no idea solid snake will succeed they wanted him to fail
@@adrianb714 he was ok with it and thats enough for me, he took our identity and ran away with it while venom carried his sins, yeah they expected solid snake to fail but wasnt he mad to be used as a pawn before? he has no problems using people as pawns himself
Stop believing in V. It never happened.
@@ak-qd2jk Kojima is having to retcon decades or lore to fit in an unfinished game he plastered his name all over.
I think it's genuinely stupid that Konami is choosing to remake what's arguably the best Metal Gear Solid title instead of remaking the MSX games. Far too many people continue to get the information of these plots wrong, and those first two stories still have never been fully dubbed with voice acting.
Agreed. I mean, mgs3 is the second best thing to do. But a damn big missed opportunity
I won’t touch it unless kojima at least breathes on it
Konami is just chasing easy money, from the suit's perspective MGS3 is a safer bet than MG1 and 2.
@arx3516 oh yeah I don't blame them. Mgs3 is the safest choice from a profit perspective
Maybe they're going in chronological order.
Ok I'm not going to lie I just commented on your community post about venom and out of nowhere here you are outstanding lol
big boss used us (the player) as a phantom through a proxy (the medic) to help build his legend and as a decoy, medic lost parts of his body, has ptsd, still feels bad for paz, he has pieces of her bones in his skull and near his heart, dies at the hands of solid snake, meanwhile in the future solid snake will help raiden be his own self, raiden even throws away the dogtags with our name on it at the end of mgs2, to me mgs2 and V are very related and show how "evil" big boss actually is, venom>big boss (i had to repost my comment because i couldnt edit the first one sorry)
Every video you make is better good job
Typa story based on real life that proves there's an afterlife. Oh how I l love a good person willing to share their creative heart. Stay good
godbless
Amazing video once again, not just subject matter but editing also. " You're pretty good"
Ww2 boss and the cobras would be amazing
Thank koonami for rejecting that idea
@adrianb714 yeah I brought it up after mgs5 but oh well
I've wanted a Boss WWII game too...and I'd love to play a young Liquid in the Middle East where he meets up with Sniper Wolf etc...
@@jc83942 what are you talking about the og boss! Her and the cobras in ww2
@jc83942 ugh you made me angry boss that taught john
Such a great analysis of series. Thank you for this
Great video, epic beginning with awesome editing
Who hit the nail on the head I appreciate your good work
Have you ever thought of the possibility that Venom Snake is actually Gray Fox. Now hear me out. There's quite a lot of foreshadowing in MGSV.
When you complete the game, the achievement that you unlock is 'Awarded the code name Fox' which only Gray Fox achieved.
We hear multiple times over the series that Gray Fox was his most trusted soldier
When the Cyborg Ninja starts hitting his head on the ground in MGS1, it's on the same side where the shrapnel would be on Venoms head.
When Eli first encounters Venom Snake, he pushes him into the wall foreshadowing Liquid Snake crushing the ninja in MGS1.
When Venom Snake has to kill his men to stop the virus, the bloody walls look very similar to the walls in MGS1 just before you fight the ninja.
There's actually a lot more theories out there but I think it's something worth looking into.
yeah, and Quiet is Chico too.
its not possible gray fox was in Rhodesia in 1979 bud venom was in a coma at that point, and quiet been chico is fucking ridiculous 😂 i love theories but some need to be backed by some evidence or there just ludicrous, there is nothing to suggest venom snake is Gray fox in the timeline, as big boss says "let it go my son", still its a cool idea tho 👍
@@subtegralOnly just seen this comment brother and yes, I also do believe Chico is Quiet
@@mycardboardbox if someone told you prior to The Phantom Pain that the Big Boss that Snake defeated before wasn't the real Big Boss, I don't think a single Metal Gear fan would believe it. Anything's possible in this universe
@@phantomsnake7910 that's absolutely true. Which is why V isn't canon to the rest of the series, directed by Kojima or not. Believe me or don't, but both MGS4 and Peace Walker invalidate V as canon.
By the way, I was joking about that old Chico/Quiet thing.
Remember outer heaven was 200 km NORTH of Galzburg.
The first Indochina war does align sorta nicely. But so could the beginning of the Vietnam War not long after the previous one ended. My thought process was that Big Boss first encountered him (but did not recognize him as Gray Fox) when he went to Vietnam with Python. (Likely in the mid to late 50s). Then, he recognized him the second time in Mozambique. Gray fox remembers the first time while Big Boss does not.
That's the best I've got.
Incredible analysis, as Always.
Really engaging and well researched (at This point im used to It), congratulations mate, gonna make mg2 next?
i just might, thanks for your support again bud
@@mycardboardbox no Need to thank me, you deserve the recognition.
On the countrary i thank you For This well made and cared videos
I wonder if at some point venom got the shrapnel out and a different arm looking exactly like a real one
I love your metal gear videos,
You’re pretty good 👉👉
Weird how older big boss is always voice by someone else besides David hayter. Even Solidus had a separate voice actor. Yet young Naked snake sounds likr Solid
45:41 so i have a theory that what big boss meant by that is they’re human beings being used. Or more accurately soldiers being used against another soldier. While John doesn’t consider David or Eli his sons he doesn’t see them as something less than human beings.
Great video
17:01 well if he was supposed to be the “perfect soldier” maybe it was a solidus situation to where his growth was accelerated.
To think this probably could’ve been avoided had big boss actually been a good father or even good provider.
Oh no. The writing was on the wall the moment he pulled the trigger on his mentor in 64. He got to see first hand what betrayal truly was. What the Boss did was one thing, what Zero did was far worse.
11:00 perhaps compare the creation of Rhodesia,
by militants,
to Big Boss’s creation of a nation….
real remake we want.
Someone turned it into an anime it's a must watch th-cam.com/video/ewlLztjaX_8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=PJg4gMFICcZ1BGxY
Portable Ops is the only game that really does mess with the timeline of the series and cause any out-and-out retcons. It's the reason they keep zigzagging whether it's canon or not. I'm in the "it's not" camp for that reason.
You really can get away with ignoring it as well as it's basically filler. The only really important point (Null) actually diminishes the tragedy of Frank being unable to adjust to a life out of combat and how what happens to him in MGS1 perpetuates that misery.
No it doesn't. And yes it is very important to the series. Replace Portable Ops with V in your statement and you're there.
👍
@@subtegral Nah, V's contributions to the story just get a bad rap because the game itself wasn't finished. It's why a ton of conversations got relegated to tapes and chats in the back of a truck - there wasn't time to mocap/animate the cutscenes and work them into the game in a meaningful way because Konami decided to get rid of Kojima and tell the team to just release what they had.
Also your entire counterargument amounted to "no you're wrong because I said so, now let me attack something else to somehow back me up." Nice work.
@@reloadpsi You're also wrong about V being unfinished.
@@subtegral your dropping truth nukes, mgsv is not unfinished there was just "cut content" but that's happened a few times in the series of mgs, its a great game and stands out, but it just lacks that something the others did better
Great video!!! 🙏🍻💪💪
Agree to disagree, Punish snake and Naked Snake are not perfect but, innocent and they were set up by Zero and Ocelot. Funny nobody sees Zero and Ocelot relationship being real evil instead Always put the Blame on Both Boss.
Solid Snake also screwed up many of his mission too.
Pyscho Mantis is a big Liquid Snake aid to become the next ruthless.
Lets all hope, they remake every single game in chronological order, especially from scratch METAL GEAR MSX and MG2.
And that they someday finish MGSV
You forget the part about how Big Boss did the same thing The Boss did in MGS3 by getting himself killed inorder to for fill his own mission.
But he was just A trader, wasn't he? 🚫🤫
The cassette and truth scene is after the events of outer heaven. The cassette itself tells you it’s a farewell from the original to the phantom. Carry that where ever you go. From here on out you’re big boss. Also the Zanzibar Big Boss is known to have cybernetic limbs. I don’t understand why many hardcore fans keep pushing the narrative the phantom died in outer heaven when that’s not the case. Also Diamond Dogs are the only ones who took in children something that Zanzibar did as well. Outer heaven never did such thing. Also Zanzibar got rid of nuclear weapons and then it began to establish itself as the true super power of the world. The games fill in the gaps just have to be really well versed with the lore
no your wrong how would that be possible, why would big boss tell venom snake the truth of his identity and to take the "title" big boss after outer heaven, it makes no sense whatsoever when the whole idea once big boss established it he would pass it to his phantom , 😂 the dialogue in the msx game destroys your statement, venom snake says to solid snake he's big boss, plus the official metal gear wikis confirms "the phantoms dies" in outer heaven, and where anywhere in the Zanzibar game on the msx confirms big boss has a cybernetic arm? tf, when in mgs 4 it was confirmed his body parts where put together with pieces of solidus body and liquids after he was caught in the blast in Zanzibar and where in my video did i mention that outer heaven took in children??? and once again you clearly dont know what your talking about because big boss would have metal gear d established in Zanzibar land that was nuclear equipped, that was the deterrence against other nation states The intro to the game and the instruction manual mention that nuclear weapons had been completely abandoned by the time of the main plot, making Zanzibar Land the world's sole nuclear power, and yes i am a hardcore fan because i know what I'm talking about and so do many others who would think this is nonsense
I remember in one of the games Big Boss attacked with some kind of rocket arm. Don't remember which one it was though.
@@theViewer221 mgsv 😂
The end credits of MGSV confirms Venom was the one who died in Outer Heaven in 1995 by saying "Solid Snake kills Big Boss's phantom"
I think he's thinking of the non canon NES sequel Snake's Revenge
Great video overall, just don’t use those AI voices. They sound clunky af and are hard to take seriously
thanks, but i do what i want not what others tells me idc if people dont like it or if its not popular
@mycardboardbox you do as you're told or you get thumbdowns.
"dont use ai voices" -🤓☝️
@@mr.monkey354 says the monkey that doesn't wear any pants. That does the sexiest of dance.
@@mr.monkey354 nerd 👉👌
Oh snap the birth of America
Zanzibar Land isn't in Zanzibar/Tanzania, canonically. It's in Central Asia.
I still don't know how I feel about the twist at the end of MGSV. It kinda made the game feel like a big side quest instead of a big meaningful chapter.
That can honestly be said of anything released after MGS4. Everything we needed to know about Metal Gear's history had already been revealed. Peace Walker and MGSV weren't absolute necessities for the overall story of Metal Gear, and Revengeance was clearly made as its own thing after KojiPro realized they couldn't finish the project.
To determine what is an American
That ain't how u spelled happened
The cassette tape from Big Boss to Venom would have had to be received by Venom the very day before Gray Fox arrives at Outer Heaven. How else would Big Boss have an operation name already set up for it? After all, NATO forced Big Boss to send a FoxHound operative (Gray Fox) to investigate Outer Heaven.
V (the letter V for Venom, not the Roman numeral for 5) isn't canon. It's simply the hypnagogic hallucination of the player. Nothing more. The real MGS5 is actually Peace Walker.
Now ask yourself if you really believe the Big Boss of Peace Walker, and especially the Big Boss described in MGS4, would agree to being body doubled by Cipher/ Zero.
Have you ever wondered why the "Big Boss" of Ground Zeroes (and Ishmael in TPP) sound like the chopper medic (Venom) instead of the real Big Boss? (Hayter)
Have you ever wondered why in Ground Zeroes Kaz tells "Big Boss" that he can't believe they both fell for Paz's cover story, instead of what really happened at the end of Peace Walker - that Kaz confessed to Big Boss that he actually knew about Paz and Cipher all along?
Have you ever wondered why, when Venom is killed, it never triggers a time paradox as it does for other characters who actually matter to the future timeline?
It's because Venom isn't part of the future timeline. All of V is a hypnagogic hallucination. It never actually happened. It’s the player's own wet dream - hence non-canon.
In fact, here's proof from Metal Gear Solid 4 - from the real Big Boss himself - that V isn’t canon:
"In order to fool the system (the Patriot AI) Ocelot used nanomachines, psychotherapy, and hypnotic suggestion to transplant Liquid's personality onto his own, and turn himself into Liquid's doppelganger.
But for all their advances in nano-technology, information and genetic control, they've never managed to control people at will, LET ALONE TURN ONE PERSON TOTALLY INTO ANOTHER... but cats do love to play as snakes".
- The Real Big Boss, 2014
Cool story bro
"... they've never managed to control people at will, let alone turn one person totally into another" - Big Boss to Solid Snake, MGS4.
MGS4 directly invalidates the canonicity of V. And so does the final (post credits) ending of the original Metal Gear that shows that Big Boss survived. There simply was no Venom Snake in Metal Gear 1987 - a Kojima retcon attempt 28 years later doesn't make it so.
Yes, this is my theory for a game that was literally shoe-horned into the series where it wasn't needed, but every point I made can easily be verified within the games.
And they're all good questions to think about..
A time paradox is always triggered whenever Big Boss gets killed in MGS3.. and so does killing any character in V (and MGS3) that actually matters to the future timeline - anyone except Venom.
Why ditch David Hayter for Sutherland? I mean seriously ponder that question. Even Hayter was dumbfounded by the choice. I believe the reason is because no actual Big Boss is ever in V.
In Ground Zeroes, why does Kaz have a different story about Paz than the actual ending of Peace Walker?
Can we at least agree that the player is Venom Snake? Well, the Camp Omega mission was in Venom's mind. Which means MSF Outer Heaven's Mother Base was never destroyed. Which means Ground Zeroes never happened. Which means The Phantom Pain never happened.
Which means... all of V is the player's own fantasy hallucination to become Big Boss. It's just another "brilliant" Kojima misdirection switcheroo so that he can feel special over the masses again. Another Kojima ego tug job.
But hey, thanks for reading bro.
@subtegral very fascinating theory I enjoyed reading this
I do agree the two V games do feel very shoe horned into the franchise
@@saintpepsi8602Hey man, I appreciate your support.
There's also something else. EVA said in MGS4... "Zero recovered their bodies" (Big Boss and Gray Fox from Zanzibar in 1999)
I bring this up because EVA literally said "Zero", not "The Patriots". But according to V, Zero was basically brain-dead long before 1999.
And before anyone asks "well how and why was Zero basically brain-dead by MGS4?" .. the real answer is simple: his health and age. He was 105. According to MGS3, Zero was born in 1909. No vocal cord parasite mumbo jumbo is required to explain it.
Have you ever really wondered why Kojima chose to not use a 5 but instead a V? People always assume it's simply a Roman numeral that also means Venom (V has come to) even when the series has never used Roman numerals.
Look up "Metal Gear Solid 5 Peace Walker" in images. Kojima originally considered Peace Walker to be MGS5 but Konami changed it during marketing because it wasn't a PS3 game.
Hell, Kojima even confirmed the meaning of the letter V in a tweet. Here is what he said, copy and pasted: "Not MGS5, but MGSV. My thought in it. V has come to".
My theory probably isn't exactly what Kojima intended, but it still falls in line with his overall concept of "the player becomes part of the series itself".
Are we willing to invalidate the canonicity of MGS4 in order to support the canonicity of V?
So if V is invalidated as part of the actual canon, then what happened between Peace Walker and Metal Gear? We already know.
Big Boss could no longer trust Kaz, so he fired him and eventually moved MSF from the Caribbean to a land-based site in Central Africa (probably right after the Gulf War, 1992) Once the new location was established he immediately returned to the U.S. and re-assumed command of FoxHound (which he originally established in 1971)
We know that Big Boss went on many adventures during the 80's. He helped Frank Jaeger with Naomi Hunter in Rhodesia. He helped a young Sniper Wolf from her horrible existence and gave her a new meaning for her life, he got into contact with a young Liquid. And when David joined FoxHound in 1995 from the Green Berets, he actually assigned him the codename of Solid Snake, knowing he was one of his clones (EVA verified this in MGS4)
So it's not difficult to believe that Big Boss had soldiers he could trust at Outer Heaven while he was hiding in plain sight in the U.S. (by separating himself from the newly established "Outer Heaven" nation, he was able to avoid suspicion)
Those trusted soldiers he left behind at Outer Heaven were obviously the team that captured Gray Fox and tried to stop Solid Snake. Yes, Dirty Duck and Company. 😆
None of this required an elaborate body double/ doppelganger fake-out.
And as for Big Boss arriving right when Snake destroyed Metal Gear TX-55, well that's even easier to explain. Big Boss was never far away, since he was always in contact with Snake via wavelength radio. Metal Gear never said that Big Boss remained across the ocean in the U.S. during FoxHound's Outer Heaven infiltration mission (Operation Intrude N313)
Anyway, to anyone who actually reads all this, thanks, it's been a catharsis for me. 😅
@@subtegralHey man that theory is freaking amazing and actually makes the most sense out of pretty much anything regarding MGSV. But one thing I find really interesting is how Ocelot describes himself being brainwashed to believe V is Big Boss, that being the word "doublethink". (My bad if you know what it means already but I'm just gonna explain for anyone reading) Doublethink comes from 1984 by George Orwell, which served as heavy inspiration for MGSV and it basically means that someone believes two contradicting truths at the same time. The interesting thing is that the timeline presented at the end of MGSV and pretty much any story layout created after V (including the stuff in the Master Collection) takes Venom as canon, despite the obvious contradictions you pointed out. I think that idea of doublethink essentially describes how many interpret Metal Gear lore and story, blindly believing whatever they're told as total truth, when the contradictions are right there, and the games that present contradictions are also blindly believed. It essentially proves the idea that the Metal Gear series presents that information and what people believe can be manipulated just like what the Patriots do. My point in saying this is that the MG series (its story anyway), imo, is not ever meant to taken literally/at face value 100%. What the "true" canonicity and timeline of the games really is is up to the player. I think your theory extenuates all of the stuff I mentioned, and how players fell "in love with the legend" so much that they've become blind to the lies staring them in the face, creating a state of doublethink, a state of fantasy as you describe.
Venom is pointless I hate that nobody wannabe big boss