I'm with Worf. No way it would actually beat the Sovereign. Scanning some future tech and getting a few ideas isn't the same as having all the tech of that time period. I think realistically a Galaxy class and possibly an Ambassador would be enough to defeat it.
It's both the Borg tech, and then Khan advancing the tech even further. Part of the reason why the Vengeance is so big is because while they could build weapons comparable to that of the 2370s, the lack of even technological progression means many components are not as miniaturized as the prime universe. But size is also an advantage when their engines are so powerful they are more maneuverable than ships 50% their size. Also, one cannot compare a purpose-built, one-off, super-battleship to a standard Starfleet vessel, even the capital ships. The Vengeance is basically a Starfleet version of the Scimitar or Hutet.
@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 it's so silly Khan being able to produce something like this ship. I don't care that he's an augment, starship design is so out of his wheelhouse it's funny.
Having seen so many Enterprises destroyed, I hope the next time the Vengeance goes to warp it will suddenly have a good ol' temporal borg sphere behind it. Sensor readings would indicate that the collective wants to collect the license fees for all that reverse-engineered tech.
I don't know...the Ent D should've had more of a chance and the E should have been able to beat it, though with having taken some damage. I just can't imagine that they'd have been able to copy future tech THAT well to get the results we saw here. Great video though for sure!
You turned your already weakened port shield back at them in the E when could have kept going and faced them with your full strength starboard one or rolled, I've noticed you favor that side a lot in battles, often ending with a 100% shield on that side while your others are wrecked. Your goal should always be maneuvering to distribute damage evenly across your grids as more and more damage can bleed through to your hull and subsystems as each side weakens.
your forgetting about the dorsal and ventral shields as well, i think he was trying to roll the ships to their strongest shields but the Vengeance keeps outmaneuvering the evasion.
At one point, I thought I heard you refer to the USS Vengeance as a doomsday machine, and it made me think that we should put it up against the Doomsday machine. Unless you've done that one already.
I recall in trek into the darkness. The Vengence ship retracted two big hidden turrets just after the enterprise being disabled. We didn't get see it it in action but hopefully in bridge command we can..
So I'm a huge huge HUGE old-school Bridge Commander fan. In fact, I worked with Nano as his sound designer back when he pioneered BC modding with MVAM, warp cutscenes, etc! If you ever wondered why some impacts sound like someone kicking a refrigerator, that's my fault. 🤦♂ Super surreal hearing those old sound survive to this day! This brings back so many memories, I've been watching your videos, like, non-stop! One after another! Haha! I'm thrilled to see BC not only alive and well, but seeing so much love to keep it relevant! So, I haven't played BC personally in almost 15 years. 😅 My only experience with Kobayashi Maru and BC Remastered is through your videos! Like everyone else, I too was very surprised to see the E go down so quickly! But when I heard "Nemesis Upgrade" version... One thing that ship did that this one didn't do was fire her phasers like they were free cars during an Oprah giveaway! I remember when we all discovered the hidden settings in the ol' ship-modding tools that activated multi-array phasers. So long as the enemy was in a phaser's arc, that phaser would fire at it. It made the first ever attempt to upgrade the Sovereign to mimic what we all saw on-screen stupidly overpowered, yet stupidly cool and just felt more accurate to the movie, especially after the first model-upgrade mods started coming out. At any rate... I know at the end of the day, "balance" is a huge key role in BC Remastered, right? I betcha though that if the E had her phasers off of that balancing act and unleashed in Nemesis mode, she might have done a bit better than what we saw here. 🤷♂ So... I vote for a rematch! In any case, love love LOVE these videos, and I watch every single matchup you do. Keep 'em coming, Badger. Thank you for keeping BC in the awareness of space-loving nerds everywhere!
@StanRain That's amazing! Wow, thanks for your comment, it means so much! We are all so grateful for all of the hard work that was put into Kobayshimaru. That's wild how you figured out multi targeting! It's literally a game changing feature. I love the Star Trek Nemesis ship in Kobayshimaru. It very much feels like the one from the movie. The blind fire and zero elevation really add to this! It would be awesome to see multi-targeting phasers in BC Remastered, I think it's just a matter of time before it materialises. Thanks Buddy 🖖
You'd have to do multiple Vengeances for that matchup to make sense. The World Razer eats Odyssey-class starships for breakfast, and we just saw here that the Odyssey is roughly a match for the Vengeance.
“-that’s a hell of a ship you got there.” I thought the E would put up a better fight, but the Enterprise F is really something special. I’d like to see better scaling with these ships. The JJprise is 800m, longer than a Sovereign, and it was dwarfed by the Vengeance.
They may have taken sensor readings back however the biggest change would have been the change in philosophy. The Federation would have focused on technology development, particularly weapons and shields over exploration. This would be like encountering the Borg in Kirk's timeline rather than Picard's. We've seen how single species civilizations are able to compete with the Federation on a military level when they put their mind to it so I'm sure that the Federation could jump 200 years in weapons technology over 50 years if they put their collective minds to it.
@@alexslgato1735 Right, what I was saying that it would add a 4x speed to development. It wasn't 50 years yet but after 50, they'd be around 200 years more advanced. We saw how they jumped in weapons technology after the Xindi, Borg and Dominion invasions so as long as they are provoked it makes sense that their change in philosophy would create ripple effects.
Dude the Galaxy should have beaten the Vengeance but you kept presenting your weakest shields! The exact same thing with the Sovereign so badly I was practically yelling at the screen!
when people said the kelvin timeline is far ahead of the prime timeline they weren't joking, I can't believe it took the odyssey class to defeat a kirk era vessel, thats nuts!
@@bjrnhalfhand2258 I agree, they only had bare bones scans of the prime line ship. They never had any access to the actual ship. So the ship shouldn't be that powerful, not even close to it.
@@fireball75677 the Kelvin timeline has advanced quite considerably ( all factions in the Alpha and beta quadrants) but it's comparable to Dominion war era not 25th century yet. Give it to the 2280's.
Makes so much sense that some recovered scans of a mining scow would lead to an almost unbeatable war machine... well, as much sense as anything else in that film I guess.
the 2233 starfleet kelvin was able to get scans of the nerada so its' really 2258 tech trying to replicate scans of 2387 tech combined with khan which honestly i kind of hate they keep pushing the superior intellect thing here. this makes the 2258 engineers and scientists look just ... dumb. when in theory by 2364 we saw elementary age children were taking calculus like how regular kids today are taking arithmetic....
Would really love to see you do a Centaur Class vs a Cheyenne class some day! Also for this video, I think the power of the Vengeance is drastically blown out of proportion. Why would it be so ridiculously maneuverable? Even with reverse engineered advanced tech, it seems unlikely that it would be so effortlessly dancing around such newer ships like the sovereign. In my opinion, anything after the Enterprise B should probably be able to take it down, and the Sovereign and Odyssey should do so without even breaking a sweat. Quantum torpedos should rip it to shreds.
I have an interesting request. The USS Archangel vs The Jem'Hadar battleship. I'm curious if the Archangel is so overpowered that it can solo the battleship or not.
Great Video. I wonder how the Sharlin would fair against the Kelvin Section 31 USS Vengeance since both ships required the Enterprise F to put them in their place.
Starfleet in Prime timeline has very few dedicated Warships. Most are multi-role Explorers who take on other duties with Combat being defensive and secondary. The Vengeance is a dedicated Warship. even with TOS Main timeline tech, it would be a fight for anything up to an Ambassador. Add in technological parity with the Sovereign's timeline, and you have a beast of a ship that Starfleet has no counters for. Strip out 2/3 of the galaxy's luxury systems, 3/4 of it's crew space since it has a scaled down crew, eliminate all outer decks and replace it with armour. Fill that space with reactors, weapons systems, backup shield generators, additional thrusters and impulse engines, and you basically have the Vengeance or World razor depending on configuration.
as we have seen in trek the biggest threats to ship are space anomalies not other enemy ships. with a dedicated tactical dreadnoght like the vengeance it would be screwed if it encountered a space anaomaly as it doesn't have scientific equipment to decipher and analyze said anomaly while a multi purpose ship would.
Nah you are not, vengeance is pretty well designed in my books for it's purpose, it is a "dreadnought" in the flesh. And I like the fact that it represented its intended purposes.
accurate -- The D and the Vengance should be around the same defensive level with the vengance have near E level offensive power and speed that is in the middle of the Ds and Es Speed and the F is Majourly (2 to 3 times) stronger and the Vengance
Put you also have to remember that the Kelvin Enterprise is as big as the prime timeline Enterprise-D! That means that the Vengeance was a HUGE ship sonce she dwarfed the Kelvin Enterprise.
It was too op, in the end it only showed that the JJ cheated with the power of the ship. It also shows that those behind JJ trek are actually neanderthals when it comes to how scanning and technology works in the Trek universe. The ship should not have such high tech from bare bones scanning. It's like saying sonar works fine in space. If such basic scanning worked ever ship in trek would be flying around in borg tech enhanced ships. No, only thing this shows off is JJ trek idiocy and nothing more.
The fact that the Enterprise D held on longer than the E makes me wonder if the RGB Galaxy class would stand a good chance against the Vengeance as it has the massive energy reserves of the Galaxy class paired with quantum torpedoes.
I guessed the Vengeance would be a tough nut to crack, because of it's armor and armament, but even I was surprised it was able to take down the Enterprise-E so fast. I think the biggest advantage the Vengeance had is it's pulse phasers; they're flechette launchers from hell. Instead of being hit with a single bullet, you're getting sliced up by a thousand little needles. Something Starfleet ships generally aren't equipped to counter.
Don't worry, I'll kick the warp core back into place. 😄 In order to heal the wounded, we'll all need that serum made from Khan's "superblood." 😆 I'd say that you'd need Carol Marcus on board, but you'd also need Scotty to unplug their power. 😀 Holy crud! It took the F to kill it. I also thought that the Sovereign would hold up longer. But you're right... it's those constant pulse phasers that were breaking down your shields, allowing the torpedoes to finish the job. In the movie, the Vengeance took 72 high explosive torpedoes INSIDE the ship, and Khan was still able to do an emergency crash landing.
LOL. Would love to hear Kirks log for that day. "Fought Khan in the morning, then kicked the Enterprises Warp core with my feet before supper" WOW, 72 that's crazy! 🖖
I think that with a better prep plan, the D could've taken it out. If for example you had planets in the area to anchor your path to, and you sort of did a hit and run with torpedoes and then orbiting to a planet to escape while new corps reload, and repeat... that would've been interesting
They made the thing ridiculously overpowered in this game. I wanna see a Federation ship with point defense, ECM, and a "modern" version of flares or flak.
😲Hey Admiral. hope you are well also, Kelvin ships, My fav the Vengeance, and would have done well in a way , loved to see those guns popping out as Scotty cut the power lol.. just to see what they were.. and Yes, poor Archer, Trip, was like '' Really!', lol. eeh.. Forgot whom said ''Admiral Marcus, making a ship, 3 times the size , double the speed,, advanced weapons'' tried looking it up and they show the rest but skipped that part.. and When came out of warp , doors closed on the deflector dish. gosh.. 😨that was hard to watch, jeepers, one after the other., ouchy. I had a feeling the Ent F, eeh gosh.. makes sense what you mentioned about the years, and future tech.. gosh.. Adm. Marcus, and Khan , that Kahn did make a powerful ship even the computer voice of the Vengeance computer, think it's Khan's voice. This was a wicked battle for the books. gosh.. Loved the battle Admiral.. I would love to see and Oberth fitted with Transphasics lol. that would be interesting lol.. 😊🖖
The Vengeance is sooo powerful. Imagine what the Kelvin Timelines 25th Century ships are like! The size of the JJ ships doesn't make much sense to me. To be fair though, look at the Voth City ship! Never realised the computer had Khans voice, that sounds familiar! Aaah, it's Smog from the Hobbit 😂. Thanks buddy 🖖
@@RetroBadgerGaming Yes, at first didn't like JJ when he did the movies but the Vengeance was nice, not sure about all the rest, and yes I agree, and that too, Voth, ship, and supposed to be Dinosaurs from Earth, makes me wonder about that.. hmm lol Smog, oh my lol 😊🖖
In a way it makes sense. The Vengeance was designed as a bespoke Super Dreadnaught using technologies on par with that of the later 24th Century thanks to *_not only the Nerada's tech reverse engineered in that reality, but also thanks to Khan's superior intellect pushing tech much further forward._* So it is huge, powerful and fast. All prime universe Enterprises are ships of exploration. The Vengeance is more like the Scimitar, Hutet or Jem Hedar Dreadnaught than the Enterprises. That said, I am shocked the E went down so fast. I would like to see a redo of that battle. Also, once you take down their forward shields, you have to target subsystems, take out their torpedo launchers or shields. *But never the Warp Core because it is essentially the worst one to target due to heavy armor.*
the problem is that the vengeance is just huge with large warp core giving it a lot of power the enterprises are tiny with tiny warp cores. tiny warp core = less power. also one thing is that pulse phasers are sueprior in combat than beam phasers one phaser hit by either pulse phaser or beam phaser drains the shields as one hit. but pulse phasers are rapid fire so the shields are getting overhwelmed by the rate of fire.
No, it makes no sense at all. First they would not be able to reverse all the technology from Narada, even if it survived the ship destruction and sucking into the black hole. Its more than a hundred years difference, just imagine bringing quantum computer into the age of steam, they would never be able to reverse engineer it just like that. And second Narada was a mining ship so even if they completely reverse engineered it somehow you can't be serious to compare it technologically to Sovereign class starship. As for Khan that is just JJ's bullshit. How could someone from 20th century be able to upgrade 24th century technology? In the Wrath of Khan they were barely able to operate a stolen starship.
@@jh11-u5f Well of course its bullshit. The logic is stupid on its face. However, because yeah they decided one sensor scan of a ersatz warship made from a mining vessel with added reverse-engineered Romulan/Borg tech, allowed Starfleet to jump 35 years into the future. And the whole Khan angle in *Darkness* was the worst thing Star Trek ever did. JJ Abrams is a massive hack who has ruined multiple franchises. That said, having an Augment spending years doing research would absolutely drive advances. And you are incorrect to state that Khan was somehow a failure for competently operating a starship after controlling it for a day. It is not a failure at all considering how much time they had to learn. But that is the other point: Marcus revived Khan a few years back in the story. Not days. Dr. Bashir's augment think tank only took a single day to master the then current political and military situation. It is not unreasonable to think given time and access to the best available knowledge that Khan wouldn't be able to significantly aid R&D. Moreover, your example is flawed. Steam Engines and Quantum Computers are not even the same concept. 23rd Century ships were not operated by analog. They had components not too different from those used in the 24th Century. In *Relics* Geordi says that key systems have not actually changed much since the 23rd Century, more refined, but basically the same. A proper analogy is comparing a modern CPU to a 2001 Intel powered PC.
I am also surprised that the galaxy did better than the E. The mass of the ship must be advantageous compared to the slim(er) profile of the Sovereign. Really enjoyable video.
Hobus went boom in 2387, Nero went back in time 2389. The Odyssey was built in 2385. The Enterprise-E was active, until 2383. The E should have been more capable. But the Vengeances only real opponent was only ever going to be the F.
The whole backwards engineering notion doesn't even make sense even if you grant them the ability to scan and understand everything on the narada, the Kelvin, the very first ship that encounters it, is already bigger than a constitution class with twice the amount of crew, what explains that? The whole universe is named after the ship yet it is the biggest thorn in the theory and everyone just glosses completely over it.
The biggest issue with the Kelvin universe is that they treat space combat like Star Wars not Star Trek. The Vengeance moves as if it has no mass. If we go by size the Vengeance is 4 times the size of an Odyssey class. Using the Odyssey class as a reference the Odyssey weights 6.6 million metric tons, so the Vengeance should weight 26.4 million metric tons at the minimum and probably more as the Vengeance is 200 years older and material advancements hadn't advanced as fast as their weapons did in the Kelvin timeline. Also she only has two impulse drives so her speed and maneuverability shouldn't be this good. She moves like a ship from Stargate not Star Trek.
@@keyboardt8276 Look at the X-303 and the BC-304. Those ships move like they are Defiant class ships and not capital sized ships they are. They move like physics don't apply to them.
@@steeltimberwolfthey are also not much larger than the Defiant class, and visuals in both shows are probably misleading in the sense that they're for viewers to get a rough idea of what's going on rather than to show what's actually happening. Otherwise we have sci fi ships engaging each other at ranges no better than wwii ships, which is pretty absurd imo
@@keyboardt8276 The real issue with the stated size of the BC-304 is that its absurdly small for its size, what it carries and is 1/3 the size of the 3d model used in the show. If you use a 6 ft 3d model next to the windows of the BC-304 you get a ship that's 650 m in length, 367 m in width and 135 m height. This is supported when we see in the hanger bay of the BC-304 considering their fighter the F-302 is 14 m in length, 26 m in width and 6 m in height and they carry 16 of them. This makes the BC-304 made by the humans of the 21st century the almost the same size as the Galaxy class, just not as wide.
@@steeltimberwolfvisual inconsistencies are common in shows but in this case an official source has provided a figure; I don't see a reason to accept an unofficial figure that's thrice that intended by the show's creators.
As we see in the Prime Timeline, ships routinely fire photon torpedoes when at warp, so I'm not sure why it was so incredible that the Vengeance could fire while at warp.
I notice that when you fire your first spread and turn to port (usually), once you turn 180 degrees and fire your aft torpedos, you then turn BACK to starport, putting your already damaged shield grid into harms way again! You should continue your turn to port (or starboard, if that was your first direction turn) and let your last quarter shield grid, that has not been damaged yet, soak up some damage before you come face to face with the enemy again. You might last longer in these battles.
speaking of Kelvin Timeline...someone requested the Globali Arkangel versus Prime and Kelvin connies. since they're now going into a Christmas compilation, it'd be a good time to pull the Globali back out :P
I hated Into Darkness, but as a fan it was such an insult when they created a rule that ships can’t fire at warp only to break it two seconds later. It’s like being able to travel to Vulcan at warp in two seconds only for traveling back to earth to take 30 minutes.
I think it's not just the fact that they had future tech. It's that Marcus realized that starfleet needed more powerfully ships then they had and didn't want to follow the starfleet mind set that they are just explorers.
The Vengeance isn't just hyper-advanced for its era, it's ginormous and designed as a pure warship. It's not too surprising that it takes an even more advanced ship of enormous scale to take her down. The Enterprise D had the scale and a lot of tech, but just wasn't advanced or mean enough. The Enterprise E might be advanced enough and mean enough, but wasn't quite big enough. With that in mind, the Galaxy War refit might have been interesting? But, somehow, Abrams-verse ships are both supersized yet still turn on a dime, they're sort of magic that way. The deck is stacked against the prime universe.
Indeed! I totally agree the Kelvin Verse has a magical element to it. The size of the ships don't make much sense. The Vengeance is a heck of a ship though. The Galaxy War Refit may stand a good chance, definitely a future video idea 🖖
It's impossible for someone to not only copy tech that well but greatly exceed it in power the way the Vengeance demonstrates here. Realistically, I could see it taking out everything except for the C. The D and above are just too powerful.
For weapons to fire without cooldown that long is a bit rediculous for the Vengeance, and sleeping on the D's Phaser array at the start didn't help it's fight. The E should have beat it, and had Maneuverability over the thing.
I think it's a combination of the technology *and* the philosophy behind the ship's design. Vengeance was built for one purpose, all the Enterprises are multipurpose ships, powerful as they are.
I would say the Vengeance balance is a bit off. Seems too OP. I'd expect at best it would just skate past a Galaxy... Dominion refit galaxy with quantums should be able equal.
What about the Dominon war varient of the Galaxy? Didnt it have more phasers than the Generations version. I also find it odd the D held on longer than the E
RBG, please make an Oberth class with transphasic torpedoes. I want an entire series, setting it against everything in the book, starting with the assimilation cube.
Bro really enjoy your content I even download form GOG star fleet Star Trek command but I sit. Know how to upgrade and the modes so I can play in that quality can you help me?
It's not only that they have access to the late-24th century technology. They've had three decades to reverse engineer it. That's a long time. And given how much larger their ships are, I'd say they're probably putting a lot more resources into every aspect of the fleet. From R&D to shipbuilding to weapons.
I really think you went into the Sovereign battle way too confident.. you did actively turn into your weakend shield when lining up a second pass with quantoms. if you got them out there is a chance the battle could have turned towards the E. especially because your starboard shields were at 100 percent while the port shields were at 27. so that was a poor decision that in the very least accelerated the destruction. I really thought you would re-do that one when you noticed that you were almost destroyed when it was too late. Maybe Riker had the bridge in that fight...
Where can I suggest ship ideas? I'd like to see the Tamarian Deep Space Cruiser (TNG "Darmok") go up against some stuff since all we know is it outclassed the Ent-D in the episode.
I'm with Worf. No way it would actually beat the Sovereign. Scanning some future tech and getting a few ideas isn't the same as having all the tech of that time period. I think realistically a Galaxy class and possibly an Ambassador would be enough to defeat it.
It's both the Borg tech, and then Khan advancing the tech even further. Part of the reason why the Vengeance is so big is because while they could build weapons comparable to that of the 2370s, the lack of even technological progression means many components are not as miniaturized as the prime universe. But size is also an advantage when their engines are so powerful they are more maneuverable than ships 50% their size. Also, one cannot compare a purpose-built, one-off, super-battleship to a standard Starfleet vessel, even the capital ships. The Vengeance is basically a Starfleet version of the Scimitar or Hutet.
@@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 theres one thing i never liked about starfleet ships... they're too small.
@crownprincesebastianjohano7069 it's so silly Khan being able to produce something like this ship. I don't care that he's an augment, starship design is so out of his wheelhouse it's funny.
Ambassador would have swept it easily.
Remember it was designed by KHan
Having seen so many Enterprises destroyed, I hope the next time the Vengeance goes to warp it will suddenly have a good ol' temporal borg sphere behind it. Sensor readings would indicate that the collective wants to collect the license fees for all that reverse-engineered tech.
🤣🤣🤣
I don't know...the Ent D should've had more of a chance and the E should have been able to beat it, though with having taken some damage. I just can't imagine that they'd have been able to copy future tech THAT well to get the results we saw here. Great video though for sure!
Agreed. The D would've had it had it not lost all torpedoes, but not without having to work for it. And the E should've handled the Vengeance.
The Enterprise E can beat the Vengeance you just turned the weak side of the shields when you had 100% on the opposite side.
@@CaptainRacer4Real he did the same to the galaxy as well tbh.
He does that all the time.
Plus he didn’t fire off enough quantums with the E.
@@neilcarter77 He also held fire with the Galaxy class.
@@Poseidon-ve4vr well to be fair the galaxy class is a fat whale
You turned your already weakened port shield back at them in the E when could have kept going and faced them with your full strength starboard one or rolled, I've noticed you favor that side a lot in battles, often ending with a 100% shield on that side while your others are wrecked. Your goal should always be maneuvering to distribute damage evenly across your grids as more and more damage can bleed through to your hull and subsystems as each side weakens.
your forgetting about the dorsal and ventral shields as well, i think he was trying to roll the ships to their strongest shields but the Vengeance keeps outmaneuvering the evasion.
At one point, I thought I heard you refer to the USS Vengeance as a doomsday machine, and it made me think that we should put it up against the Doomsday machine. Unless you've done that one already.
I recall in trek into the darkness. The Vengence ship retracted two big hidden turrets just after the enterprise being disabled. We didn't get see it it in action but hopefully in bridge command we can..
I believe they where cluster torpedo launchers.
So I'm a huge huge HUGE old-school Bridge Commander fan. In fact, I worked with Nano as his sound designer back when he pioneered BC modding with MVAM, warp cutscenes, etc! If you ever wondered why some impacts sound like someone kicking a refrigerator, that's my fault. 🤦♂ Super surreal hearing those old sound survive to this day! This brings back so many memories, I've been watching your videos, like, non-stop! One after another! Haha!
I'm thrilled to see BC not only alive and well, but seeing so much love to keep it relevant!
So, I haven't played BC personally in almost 15 years. 😅 My only experience with Kobayashi Maru and BC Remastered is through your videos! Like everyone else, I too was very surprised to see the E go down so quickly! But when I heard "Nemesis Upgrade" version... One thing that ship did that this one didn't do was fire her phasers like they were free cars during an Oprah giveaway! I remember when we all discovered the hidden settings in the ol' ship-modding tools that activated multi-array phasers. So long as the enemy was in a phaser's arc, that phaser would fire at it. It made the first ever attempt to upgrade the Sovereign to mimic what we all saw on-screen stupidly overpowered, yet stupidly cool and just felt more accurate to the movie, especially after the first model-upgrade mods started coming out.
At any rate... I know at the end of the day, "balance" is a huge key role in BC Remastered, right? I betcha though that if the E had her phasers off of that balancing act and unleashed in Nemesis mode, she might have done a bit better than what we saw here. 🤷♂ So... I vote for a rematch!
In any case, love love LOVE these videos, and I watch every single matchup you do. Keep 'em coming, Badger. Thank you for keeping BC in the awareness of space-loving nerds everywhere!
@StanRain That's amazing! Wow, thanks for your comment, it means so much! We are all so grateful for all of the hard work that was put into Kobayshimaru. That's wild how you figured out multi targeting! It's literally a game changing feature. I love the Star Trek Nemesis ship in Kobayshimaru. It very much feels like the one from the movie. The blind fire and zero elevation really add to this! It would be awesome to see multi-targeting phasers in BC Remastered, I think it's just a matter of time before it materialises. Thanks Buddy 🖖
That Quantum volley to end the Vengeance at 9:30 was SO satisfying...
CSS World Razer vs. the Vengeance would be a good one
Yes!
CSS World Razer vs. the Vengeance vs. USS Enterprise-D dreadnaught variant, given that the D lasted longer than the E.
You'd have to do multiple Vengeances for that matchup to make sense. The World Razer eats Odyssey-class starships for breakfast, and we just saw here that the Odyssey is roughly a match for the Vengeance.
I still wanna see a World Razer dreadnaught. Triple nacels and twin spinal lances.
Best 15 second match this week ❤
2:20 "They got hull damage?!"
Hull damage implies they actually, unlike you, have a hull. 😉
🤣🤣
“-that’s a hell of a ship you got there.” I thought the E would put up a better fight, but the Enterprise F is really something special. I’d like to see better scaling with these ships. The JJprise is 800m, longer than a Sovereign, and it was dwarfed by the Vengeance.
the vengeance is 1.50 km
JJ Enterprise was 700+m long and Vengeance was ~1.4km
I mean, so, basically - exactly what i said.
They may have taken sensor readings back however the biggest change would have been the change in philosophy. The Federation would have focused on technology development, particularly weapons and shields over exploration. This would be like encountering the Borg in Kirk's timeline rather than Picard's. We've seen how single species civilizations are able to compete with the Federation on a military level when they put their mind to it so I'm sure that the Federation could jump 200 years in weapons technology over 50 years if they put their collective minds to it.
Hm, maybe, but the Vengeance was built far sooner than 50 years - the Kirk from Star Trek into Darkness was still on his twenties.
@@alexslgato1735 Right, what I was saying that it would add a 4x speed to development. It wasn't 50 years yet but after 50, they'd be around 200 years more advanced. We saw how they jumped in weapons technology after the Xindi, Borg and Dominion invasions so as long as they are provoked it makes sense that their change in philosophy would create ripple effects.
Aaaah. So this is the "dreadnaught class"?
Been wondering when you were going to show this one.
no way the enterprise b and c would do that badly.
Dude the Galaxy should have beaten the Vengeance but you kept presenting your weakest shields! The exact same thing with the Sovereign so badly I was practically yelling at the screen!
😂😂😂 fr ....He likes to do that alot
this is pre dominion war refit galaxy much weaker.
@@mrpresidentisrael8054 Sometimes I call him Red Shirt Badger.
@@erichidalgo8153 lol
I’d expect the C to beat this.
when people said the kelvin timeline is far ahead of the prime timeline they weren't joking, I can't believe it took the odyssey class to defeat a kirk era vessel, thats nuts!
Yeah it's really silly. Way too powerful.
@@bjrnhalfhand2258
I agree, they only had bare bones scans of the prime line ship.
They never had any access to the actual ship.
So the ship shouldn't be that powerful, not even close to it.
This isn’t even remotely legitimate. People use their feelings when they say the kelvin timeline is further ahead
@@fireball75677 the Kelvin timeline has advanced quite considerably ( all factions in the Alpha and beta quadrants) but it's comparable to Dominion war era not 25th century yet. Give it to the 2280's.
Makes so much sense that some recovered scans of a mining scow would lead to an almost unbeatable war machine... well, as much sense as anything else in that film I guess.
I would like to see a rematch with the E and target the pulse phasers from the start.
wow, awesome vid mate, these wacky ideas are what makes this channel so cool! after a few beers its gripping viewing! love it.👍
@marktierney2117 Thanks buddy! That means a lot 🖖
Enterprise B is beautiful, shame we never got to watch her in action, like the Enterprise C. And yeah I'd like to watch the C in action as well.
You... you like the C?.... whatever you're on, why aren't you sharing? Lol
Strangely enough, the Vengeance actually resembles its name. Tactics definitely make all the difference. Great video!
Thanks 🖖
8:18 poor Jean-Luc! The USS Enterprise shall have its vengeance!
🤔I think you mean the fishies... lol. just saying!!😂
🤣🤣
Late 24th Century technology mixed with the mind of Khan Noonien Singh could explain it, along with a dash of Borg tech recovered from the Narada.
the 2233 starfleet kelvin was able to get scans of the nerada so its' really 2258 tech trying to replicate scans of 2387 tech combined with khan which honestly i kind of hate they keep pushing the superior intellect thing here. this makes the 2258 engineers and scientists look just ... dumb. when in theory by 2364 we saw elementary age children were taking calculus like how regular kids today are taking arithmetic....
@@Brasc It was sucked into a black hole the Red Matter created. Nothing was recovered but the scans of the ship
Would really love to see you do a Centaur Class vs a Cheyenne class some day!
Also for this video, I think the power of the Vengeance is drastically blown out of proportion. Why would it be so ridiculously maneuverable? Even with reverse engineered advanced tech, it seems unlikely that it would be so effortlessly dancing around such newer ships like the sovereign.
In my opinion, anything after the Enterprise B should probably be able to take it down, and the Sovereign and Odyssey should do so without even breaking a sweat. Quantum torpedos should rip it to shreds.
I have an interesting request. The USS Archangel vs The Jem'Hadar battleship. I'm curious if the Archangel is so overpowered that it can solo the battleship or not.
Great Video. I wonder how the Sharlin would fair against the Kelvin Section 31 USS Vengeance since both ships required the Enterprise F to put them in their place.
Starfleet in Prime timeline has very few dedicated Warships. Most are multi-role Explorers who take on other duties with Combat being defensive and secondary.
The Vengeance is a dedicated Warship. even with TOS Main timeline tech, it would be a fight for anything up to an Ambassador. Add in technological parity with the Sovereign's timeline, and you have a beast of a ship that Starfleet has no counters for.
Strip out 2/3 of the galaxy's luxury systems, 3/4 of it's crew space since it has a scaled down crew, eliminate all outer decks and replace it with armour.
Fill that space with reactors, weapons systems, backup shield generators, additional thrusters and impulse engines, and you basically have the Vengeance or World razor depending on configuration.
as we have seen in trek the biggest threats to ship are space anomalies not other enemy ships. with a dedicated tactical dreadnoght like the vengeance it would be screwed if it encountered a space anaomaly as it doesn't have scientific equipment to decipher and analyze said anomaly while a multi purpose ship would.
The Enterprise F finally gets its day
it better it's a 2380s heavy cruiser. if that cna't stop the vengeance than prime starfleet sucks.
Alexander Marcus or Alex Murphy?
'Stop, or there will be.. trouble!'
Your move, Captain Creep! 😛
One of Weller's best roles is on *_Fringe._* _White Tulip_ is one of the best hours of Sci Fi ever.
“Your move, Kirk.”
Ooh, that was a *satisfying* finisher! Full torpedo spread at point blank range!
I know I'm an outlier but I love the look of the Vengence. Probably my favorite Star Trek ship next to the Massive Excalibur class.
You are not a outlier. The ship design is awesome.
Nah you are not, vengeance is pretty well designed in my books for it's purpose, it is a "dreadnought" in the flesh. And I like the fact that it represented its intended purposes.
Something is severely wrong with you. lol
I like the Vengeance too. Would love to see a small fleet of them vs the Scimitar or an assimilation cube.
Vengeance vs. the Scimitar, or World Razer, or Sci Fi Hutet mod.
accurate -- The D and the Vengance should be around the same defensive level with the vengance have near E level offensive power and speed that is in the middle of the Ds and Es Speed and the F is Majourly (2 to 3 times) stronger and the Vengance
Agreed
Put you also have to remember that the Kelvin Enterprise is as big as the prime timeline Enterprise-D! That means that the Vengeance was a HUGE ship sonce she dwarfed the Kelvin Enterprise.
Yeah, ship sizes i. This game are not to scale with each other
Size isn’t the same as advanced. I’d be amazed if Vengeance could tickle the shields of a Galaxy-class
Jjprise is 100m longer than ENT-D. Vengeance is 1500m. True ENTERPRISE-G eclipse class would easily destroy 2 vengeance in 5 minutes.
And yet somehow turns on a dime when the D lumbers like a manatee out of water.
@@darkmatter1152 source: "trust me bro"😂
The E could have done it too, you showed him the backboard side the whole time, and there the shields were down
you german? "Backboard" is a very german sounding denglish term :D no hate
Thanks for the vengeance showcase, great battle!
It was too op, in the end it only showed that the JJ cheated with the power of the ship.
It also shows that those behind JJ trek are actually neanderthals when it comes to how scanning and technology works in the Trek universe.
The ship should not have such high tech from bare bones scanning.
It's like saying sonar works fine in space.
If such basic scanning worked ever ship in trek would be flying around in borg tech enhanced ships.
No, only thing this shows off is JJ trek idiocy and nothing more.
The fact that the Enterprise D held on longer than the E makes me wonder if the RGB Galaxy class would stand a good chance against the Vengeance as it has the massive energy reserves of the Galaxy class paired with quantum torpedoes.
The Vengeance was a custom-built battle dreadnought with future technology. To say it's overpowered is quite the understatement.
Did I mention that was also designed by a maniacal evil sociopath genetically enhanced genius?
"It's not the plane, it's the pilot, remember?" ~ Lt. Bradley 'Rooster' Bradshaw.
This was fun. Maybe have all the Enterprises at once and see how they fair
WOW that was Seriously Amazing
I guessed the Vengeance would be a tough nut to crack, because of it's armor and armament, but even I was surprised it was able to take down the Enterprise-E so fast. I think the biggest advantage the Vengeance had is it's pulse phasers; they're flechette launchers from hell. Instead of being hit with a single bullet, you're getting sliced up by a thousand little needles. Something Starfleet ships generally aren't equipped to counter.
Don't worry, I'll kick the warp core back into place. 😄
In order to heal the wounded, we'll all need that serum made from Khan's "superblood." 😆
I'd say that you'd need Carol Marcus on board, but you'd also need Scotty to unplug their power. 😀
Holy crud! It took the F to kill it. I also thought that the Sovereign would hold up longer. But you're right... it's those constant pulse phasers that were breaking down your shields, allowing the torpedoes to finish the job.
In the movie, the Vengeance took 72 high explosive torpedoes INSIDE the ship, and Khan was still able to do an emergency crash landing.
LOL. Would love to hear Kirks log for that day. "Fought Khan in the morning, then kicked the Enterprises Warp core with my feet before supper" WOW, 72 that's crazy! 🖖
I think that with a better prep plan, the D could've taken it out. If for example you had planets in the area to anchor your path to, and you sort of did a hit and run with torpedoes and then orbiting to a planet to escape while new corps reload, and repeat... that would've been interesting
Seeing the Enterprise J in that fight would have been amazing
This is like that one Doctor Who special where like 13 Doctors show up around Gallifrey to defeat the bad guys.
Viewer requests. Five dreadnaught class from TOS era against one galaxy class.
Wow! Now I want to see the Vengeance versus some other monsters, like the Jem Hadar battleship or the mirror universe Negh'var.
They made the thing ridiculously overpowered in this game.
I wanna see a Federation ship with point defense, ECM, and a "modern" version of flares or flak.
😲Hey Admiral. hope you are well also, Kelvin ships, My fav the Vengeance, and would have done well in a way , loved to see those guns popping out as Scotty cut the power lol.. just to see what they were.. and Yes, poor Archer, Trip, was like '' Really!', lol. eeh.. Forgot whom said ''Admiral Marcus, making a ship, 3 times the size , double the speed,, advanced weapons'' tried looking it up and they show the rest but skipped that part.. and When came out of warp , doors closed on the deflector dish. gosh.. 😨that was hard to watch, jeepers, one after the other., ouchy. I had a feeling the Ent F, eeh gosh.. makes sense what you mentioned about the years, and future tech.. gosh.. Adm. Marcus, and Khan , that Kahn did make a powerful ship even the computer voice of the Vengeance computer, think it's Khan's voice. This was a wicked battle for the books. gosh.. Loved the battle Admiral.. I would love to see and Oberth fitted with Transphasics lol. that would be interesting lol.. 😊🖖
The Vengeance is sooo powerful. Imagine what the Kelvin Timelines 25th Century ships are like! The size of the JJ ships doesn't make much sense to me. To be fair though, look at the Voth City ship! Never realised the computer had Khans voice, that sounds familiar! Aaah, it's Smog from the Hobbit 😂. Thanks buddy 🖖
@@RetroBadgerGaming Yes, at first didn't like JJ when he did the movies but the Vengeance was nice, not sure about all the rest, and yes I agree, and that too, Voth, ship, and supposed to be Dinosaurs from Earth, makes me wonder about that.. hmm lol Smog, oh my lol 😊🖖
Oooooooh! This is going to be good! New F? Edit - OK not the new F but at least she still won!
"The Video is good been 🌟🌟🌟🌟🖖🖖🖖🖖. "But by the Enterprise - C ,very strange been 🤔🧐🤨.
have the vengeance take on a borg cube
Ty for the video and LLAP!
The Vengeance Vs Armoured Voyager would be a good match.
3:33 Yes, it *is* a machine.
I can't help thinking that the Dominion war version of the Galaxy class would have stood a chance of defeating the Vengeance
In a way it makes sense. The Vengeance was designed as a bespoke Super Dreadnaught using technologies on par with that of the later 24th Century thanks to *_not only the Nerada's tech reverse engineered in that reality, but also thanks to Khan's superior intellect pushing tech much further forward._* So it is huge, powerful and fast. All prime universe Enterprises are ships of exploration. The Vengeance is more like the Scimitar, Hutet or Jem Hedar Dreadnaught than the Enterprises. That said, I am shocked the E went down so fast. I would like to see a redo of that battle. Also, once you take down their forward shields, you have to target subsystems, take out their torpedo launchers or shields. *But never the Warp Core because it is essentially the worst one to target due to heavy armor.*
the problem is that the vengeance is just huge with large warp core giving it a lot of power the enterprises are tiny with tiny warp cores. tiny warp core = less power. also one thing is that pulse phasers are sueprior in combat than beam phasers one phaser hit by either pulse phaser or beam phaser drains the shields as one hit. but pulse phasers are rapid fire so the shields are getting overhwelmed by the rate of fire.
No, it makes no sense at all. First they would not be able to reverse all the technology from Narada, even if it survived the ship destruction and sucking into the black hole. Its more than a hundred years difference, just imagine bringing quantum computer into the age of steam, they would never be able to reverse engineer it just like that. And second Narada was a mining ship so even if they completely reverse engineered it somehow you can't be serious to compare it technologically to Sovereign class starship. As for Khan that is just JJ's bullshit. How could someone from 20th century be able to upgrade 24th century technology? In the Wrath of Khan they were barely able to operate a stolen starship.
@@jh11-u5f Well of course its bullshit. The logic is stupid on its face. However, because yeah they decided one sensor scan of a ersatz warship made from a mining vessel with added reverse-engineered Romulan/Borg tech, allowed Starfleet to jump 35 years into the future. And the whole Khan angle in *Darkness* was the worst thing Star Trek ever did. JJ Abrams is a massive hack who has ruined multiple franchises. That said, having an Augment spending years doing research would absolutely drive advances. And you are incorrect to state that Khan was somehow a failure for competently operating a starship after controlling it for a day. It is not a failure at all considering how much time they had to learn. But that is the other point: Marcus revived Khan a few years back in the story. Not days. Dr. Bashir's augment think tank only took a single day to master the then current political and military situation. It is not unreasonable to think given time and access to the best available knowledge that Khan wouldn't be able to significantly aid R&D. Moreover, your example is flawed. Steam Engines and Quantum Computers are not even the same concept. 23rd Century ships were not operated by analog. They had components not too different from those used in the 24th Century. In *Relics* Geordi says that key systems have not actually changed much since the 23rd Century, more refined, but basically the same. A proper analogy is comparing a modern CPU to a 2001 Intel powered PC.
Interesting fight! What about how many Sabers would take down Sovereign class Enterprise-E?
I absolutely hate the Kelvin Timeline. The uniforms. The designs. The ships. All of it. But this was still fun to watch, lol.😁
I am also surprised that the galaxy did better than the E. The mass of the ship must be advantageous compared to the slim(er) profile of the Sovereign. Really enjoyable video.
Maybe the Enterprise-B (or a whole fleet of them) could try again on Tuesday lol
if in doubt ram
My explanation;
The E, she's just BUILT DIFFERENT 💯🖖
Missed opportunity when the D was fighting. Ludicrous speed go!
The Vengeance should be matched up against some Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian & other races to see how that would go.
Retro badger in the Enterprise B needs more power, sadly won't be installed till Tuesday.
Hobus went boom in 2387, Nero went back in time 2389. The Odyssey was built in 2385. The Enterprise-E was active, until 2383. The E should have been more capable. But the Vengeances only real opponent was only ever going to be the F.
Also all the reversed Borg tech on the nerada made a huge impact.
But the Narada was sucked into a black hole. There was nothing to recover.
@@erichidalgo8153 Yeah... I don't get the idea that they even had the ability to scan the Narada, let alone process whatever they discovered.
The whole backwards engineering notion doesn't even make sense even if you grant them the ability to scan and understand everything on the narada, the Kelvin, the very first ship that encounters it, is already bigger than a constitution class with twice the amount of crew, what explains that? The whole universe is named after the ship yet it is the biggest thorn in the theory and everyone just glosses completely over it.
@@t3h51d3w1nd3r Yes....
The Dreadnought class is beast for sure!
The biggest issue with the Kelvin universe is that they treat space combat like Star Wars not Star Trek. The Vengeance moves as if it has no mass. If we go by size the Vengeance is 4 times the size of an Odyssey class. Using the Odyssey class as a reference the Odyssey weights 6.6 million metric tons, so the Vengeance should weight 26.4 million metric tons at the minimum and probably more as the Vengeance is 200 years older and material advancements hadn't advanced as fast as their weapons did in the Kelvin timeline. Also she only has two impulse drives so her speed and maneuverability shouldn't be this good. She moves like a ship from Stargate not Star Trek.
I don't remember stargate having particularly good maneuverability compared to star trek
@@keyboardt8276 Look at the X-303 and the BC-304. Those ships move like they are Defiant class ships and not capital sized ships they are. They move like physics don't apply to them.
@@steeltimberwolfthey are also not much larger than the Defiant class, and visuals in both shows are probably misleading in the sense that they're for viewers to get a rough idea of what's going on rather than to show what's actually happening. Otherwise we have sci fi ships engaging each other at ranges no better than wwii ships, which is pretty absurd imo
@@keyboardt8276 The real issue with the stated size of the BC-304 is that its absurdly small for its size, what it carries and is 1/3 the size of the 3d model used in the show. If you use a 6 ft 3d model next to the windows of the BC-304 you get a ship that's 650 m in length, 367 m in width and 135 m height. This is supported when we see in the hanger bay of the BC-304 considering their fighter the F-302 is 14 m in length, 26 m in width and 6 m in height and they carry 16 of them. This makes the BC-304 made by the humans of the 21st century the almost the same size as the Galaxy class, just not as wide.
@@steeltimberwolfvisual inconsistencies are common in shows but in this case an official source has provided a figure; I don't see a reason to accept an unofficial figure that's thrice that intended by the show's creators.
As we see in the Prime Timeline, ships routinely fire photon torpedoes when at warp, so I'm not sure why it was so incredible that the Vengeance could fire while at warp.
Would it be possible to pit various stations against each other?
I notice that when you fire your first spread and turn to port (usually), once you turn 180 degrees and fire your aft torpedos, you then turn BACK to starport, putting your already damaged shield grid into harms way again! You should continue your turn to port (or starboard, if that was your first direction turn) and let your last quarter shield grid, that has not been damaged yet, soak up some damage before you come face to face with the enemy again. You might last longer in these battles.
At least it didn't get as far as Picards Ent G....killed with one shot!
I think a D war refit could take it out. You were so close with the D! 😆
I'd like to see how the Connie refit refit would hold up......
speaking of Kelvin Timeline...someone requested the Globali Arkangel versus Prime and Kelvin connies. since they're now going into a Christmas compilation, it'd be a good time to pull the Globali back out :P
That is some major plot armor
I hated Into Darkness, but as a fan it was such an insult when they created a rule that ships can’t fire at warp only to break it two seconds later. It’s like being able to travel to Vulcan at warp in two seconds only for traveling back to earth to take 30 minutes.
I think it's not just the fact that they had future tech. It's that Marcus realized that starfleet needed more powerfully ships then they had and didn't want to follow the starfleet mind set that they are just explorers.
The Vengeance isn't just hyper-advanced for its era, it's ginormous and designed as a pure warship. It's not too surprising that it takes an even more advanced ship of enormous scale to take her down. The Enterprise D had the scale and a lot of tech, but just wasn't advanced or mean enough. The Enterprise E might be advanced enough and mean enough, but wasn't quite big enough.
With that in mind, the Galaxy War refit might have been interesting?
But, somehow, Abrams-verse ships are both supersized yet still turn on a dime, they're sort of magic that way. The deck is stacked against the prime universe.
Indeed! I totally agree the Kelvin Verse has a magical element to it. The size of the ships don't make much sense. The Vengeance is a heck of a ship though. The Galaxy War Refit may stand a good chance, definitely a future video idea 🖖
If I remember the lore correctly. The Kelvin Universe Starfleet had Quantum Torpedos on par with 24th century ones.
It's impossible for someone to not only copy tech that well but greatly exceed it in power the way the Vengeance demonstrates here. Realistically, I could see it taking out everything except for the C. The D and above are just too powerful.
For weapons to fire without cooldown that long is a bit rediculous for the Vengeance, and sleeping on the D's Phaser array at the start didn't help it's fight. The E should have beat it, and had Maneuverability over the thing.
I think it's a combination of the technology *and* the philosophy behind the ship's design. Vengeance was built for one purpose, all the Enterprises are multipurpose ships, powerful as they are.
I would say the Vengeance balance is a bit off. Seems too OP. I'd expect at best it would just skate past a Galaxy... Dominion refit galaxy with quantums should be able equal.
I requested this video and I figured it would either take the F or the J to take out the Vengeance
What about the Dominon war varient of the Galaxy? Didnt it have more phasers than the Generations version. I also find it odd the D held on longer than the E
Would have liked to see Riker’s refit enterprise go up against that thing. Both had ridiculously powerful primary weapons.
Can you put The Enterprise G vs The Uss vengeance
RBG, please make an Oberth class with transphasic torpedoes. I want an entire series, setting it against everything in the book, starting with the assimilation cube.
It wasn’t designed by khan, khan helped design it. Besides that it’s ridiculous the explanation given in the kelvin timeline for its design.
It would be better to have all the Enterprises go all at once!
Bro really enjoy your content I even download form GOG star fleet Star Trek command but I sit. Know how to upgrade and the modes so I can play in that quality can you help me?
It's not only that they have access to the late-24th century technology. They've had three decades to reverse engineer it. That's a long time.
And given how much larger their ships are, I'd say they're probably putting a lot more resources into every aspect of the fleet. From R&D to shipbuilding to weapons.
I really think you went into the Sovereign battle way too confident.. you did actively turn into your weakend shield when lining up a second pass with quantoms. if you got them out there is a chance the battle could have turned towards the E. especially because your starboard shields were at 100 percent while the port shields were at 27. so that was a poor decision that in the very least accelerated the destruction.
I really thought you would re-do that one when you noticed that you were almost destroyed when it was too late. Maybe Riker had the bridge in that fight...
we now know the answer to one of the most important questions in star trek: who would win in a fight? charles xavier or buckaroo bonzai?
Where can I suggest ship ideas? I'd like to see the Tamarian Deep Space Cruiser (TNG "Darmok") go up against some stuff since all we know is it outclassed the Ent-D in the episode.
i think for the sovereign to redeem itself we need an arch angel vs vengeance video....