Are you good at helicopters? if yes, my question is: could it be that the soft ditching is actually the result of the successful 2nd attempt to restart the engine, and the engine spooling up already and giving a little power by that time? This would also explain to me, why the aircraft capsized on the floats, instead of settling down into a stable position in the water. (TransAsia Airways Flight 235 stalled and spun right when they were restarting the good engine they had shut down earlier by mistake. Sometimes it's more dangerous to restart an engine at low level / low controllability, than just glide it / autorotate it in as per normal emergency practice. A restarting engine can create forces that are not normally experienced by pilots in flight, and can easily catch them off guard.)
@@rnzoli With the shutoff valve closed he could never even get the engine to ignite so I imagine he didnt get very far trying. Even if he opened the valve quickly it takes 30-60 seconds to start up a turbine, and the only usable power comes in at 90% anyway (for a helicopter) so I doubt it would have had any impact on performance.
@@codmott286 thanks. @ 4:00 this video says that the fuel supply was restored by the pilot while descending through 300 feet, but there was no time left to restart the engine. Perhaps he didn't even initiate the starting sequence. But then the big question will be why the floats failed to keep the helicopter in an upright position. Maybe some of them ruptured on impact with water. By the way, passenger interference, inadvertently turning off the fuel shut-off valve, has caused a similar accident 25 years ago in my country. 10 people died on the overloaded Mi-2 helicopter when it crashed.
safety device for the wrong application. A parachute is also a safety device but you wouldnt want to use one as a life raft. These harnesses and this joke of a flight operation with open doors and people hanging out was stupid all around.
You are right the harness should not have had that dangly bit. The harnesses should have had quick release buckles and the passengers should have had instruction and training on how to exit the helicopter in an emergency. In the UK, flights by helicopter are only allowed over the Thames, Helicopters are not allowed to fly over land within central London. The Helicopter in the animation could quite easily have come down on the populated parts of New York.
I don't think that the pilot did anything wrong here. Just wondering if there need to be additional safety measures in place on these safety harnesses in the future, like two hand pulls to release the cable. Since this was most likely the cause of the fatalities. Sad story nevertheless 😟
Agree it's sad. Underwater egress under stress is a learned skill, one that requires training and practice, and even then is not easy or foolproof....!
@@JoePJack1 no it shouldn't. The cockpit is made for pilots, not for passengers fiddling around with controls. Not that this happened in this case, it was an accident - but the cutoff switch need to be found and operated very quickly in case of an emergency, or you will have accidents, injuries and deaths because the pilot had trouble to use the cutoff switch because some of the overcomplicated safety mechanism was faulty.
Could you do a follow-up video showing the release mechanisms on the harnesses used? How hard were they to unhook from in a packed helicopter like that? It seems like the passengers should have had time to unhook before being submerged if they weren't in a total panic already, but knowing the restraint system would shed light on whether that was really as easy as one might imagine. Very sad incident, but understanding the restraints and devising better standards for them could save others in the future. Obviously, some guidelines need to be set out on front passenger restraints as well, can't have loose bits snagging on controls. It sounds like the fuel cutoff should come with an audible warning too, that's not usually something pilots intend to do in the middle of flight and it's only recoverable if rectified immediately (as much as airbus loves computers I would have thought they'd train it to know that fuel being cutoff in flight is abnormal and have it send warnings, but whatever).
My earlier comment (a reply) remains true and relevant: underwater egress under stress is a learned skill that requires training and practice! Believe there are examples on TH-cam of the training US Coast Guard personnel get to do that very thing!
@@gus473 Oh I know, I've watched the Marine corps training for underwater egress, but I know if I were a passenger I'd have tried to get out of the restraints before impact or immediately after, before being submerged. So I'm curious how difficult it was for a passenger to unhook themselves even without being upside down underwater, with how tightly they were packed in there and the restraints used I have a feeling it may have been nearly impossible for someone to do themselves which would be a big safety issue. I think no matter what is done very few people would be able to extract themselves once inverted underwater, definitely requires more training than any layman off the street could aquire in a preflight briefing. Though better restraint design could make it possible for people to get free of their restraints before that happens.
Well since they used this restrain system they haven't been properly secured in their seat, only the pilot was. They was probably experiencing pretty large forces and not necessarily in a straight direction. The most likely cause is that they was knocked out on impact.
The flotation worked, but still caused the helicopter to be inverted. Very sad. Hopefully this can be improved over time and the engine is fixed as well. Condolences to the families of the loved ones on board.
I think the flotation deserves more attention. That was the only thing in this entire incident that did not work as intended. If the the helo had stayed upright, everyone would have lived. This is a failure of the flotation system as much as it is poor practice / incorrect application of the harnesses.
Note at 0:46 the clearly visible harness cutting knife in the black pouch on his left shoulder. They have a V-slot, you just hook it over the harness strap and pull once.
Pilot is responsible for flight controls...Not the passengers paying him for his expertise...Including assuring that restraint system presented a hazard. A safety system that depends on the "expertise" of itinerant passengers, is not a system, but rather an accident waiting to happen.
Airbus, as a manufacturer, has a sweet spot for ditching in New York. Helicopter pilot should have aimed for the Hudson river it has better ditching survival rate. Now seriously, did you notice the pilot had to vacate the helicopter from the right side, which submerged first? This alone probably prevented him from assisting his passangers. But the 2nd engine restart attempt was probably a mistake, it would have been better to focus on briefing the passengers on closing the doors and unthethering them. Sometimes you have a very difficult choice between saving the aircraft (and your career), or, saving your passengers. Sully made a good decision on chosing the latter, early on , accepting that on the other hand, his Airbus will be a write-off and he may be reprimanded for that.
I Love this comment because I said the same exact thing considering they only had a minute to fall 1900 ft he definitely wasted time on the wrong things not to mention the time he wasted constantly trying to get LaGuardia to understand he had engine failure🤔😔
@@rethablair6902 Well, the old adage holds true again: aviate, navigate, communicate, in that order. I am quite sure however, that there is NOT A SINGLE person, who could perform flawlessly in that situation. Even Sully and Jeff made a few mistakes (e.g., ditch valves remained open). But at least we should prioritize and focus on doing well those actions that protect lives and make the mistakes with other actions. Easier said than done, but it's possible and it does reduce fatality rates.
@@rnzoli U are right i imagine we shall never know how things actually were up there on that tragic day but such a loss of young lives full of promise 😭
There were no doors they were "removed" and the passengers were briefed on how to unhook themselves before the flight. The problem was the overkill of the restraints that made it ridiculously difficult to unhook and was obviously designed by a hysterical permanently outraged liberal.
You should never do that. In these underwater egress training courses instractors teaches you to unharness yourself after the impact and at the time that the rollover motion of the helicopter has been stopped.But its extremely difficult to do that if you are not trained.
@@nas2kids I'm talking about the particular harness they were using for open door photography, not their usual seatbelts. The harnesses they were using can't be released by the wearer, only by someone else or cut with a knife. Which was apparently what they were supposed to do.
@@jtveg i think they were waiting on the pilot to tell them when to cut loose but he was pre occupied with trying to ReStart the copter instead of instructing them what to do
@@rethablair6902 You are probably right. Everything happened so quick that they really had no chance unless they immediately took action the instant they realised they were going down.
Seems like a good case to be made against the city of New York for restricting pocket tools. One of them known as a pocket knife/ which could have saved lives... I’m glad I live in Texas, where the city of Cypress doesn’t mind me having a good, sharp pocket knife on my person.
You can see the specialized harness knife on the person's left breast at 0:40. The shock of the crash followed by the cold water likely was enough that no one even got started cutting themselves free. Here's a video of a pilot who analyzes his doors-off flight with his family just weeks before this accident. th-cam.com/video/ofjRkCcIO9s/w-d-xo.html
I think I read that they were supplied with a web/belt cutter for emegencies. It looks like one can be seen at :56 on the harness, in the pocket on the upper left arm strap. Not sure what the item with the wooden looking handle is.
you dont really have a lot of directional control during an auto since every input uses energy. You basically just pick a spot directly ahead of you and decend
@@codmott286 i just figured based on the route the copter took the pilot must've steered it that way and the narrator did say that the pilot turned it toward the river😔
That was actually a really good auto-rotation, especially given the circumstances and his utter confusion as to what happened.
Are you good at helicopters? if yes, my question is: could it be that the soft ditching is actually the result of the successful 2nd attempt to restart the engine, and the engine spooling up already and giving a little power by that time? This would also explain to me, why the aircraft capsized on the floats, instead of settling down into a stable position in the water.
(TransAsia Airways Flight 235 stalled and spun right when they were restarting the good engine they had shut down earlier by mistake. Sometimes it's more dangerous to restart an engine at low level / low controllability, than just glide it / autorotate it in as per normal emergency practice. A restarting engine can create forces that are not normally experienced by pilots in flight, and can easily catch them off guard.)
@@rnzoli With the shutoff valve closed he could never even get the engine to ignite so I imagine he didnt get very far trying. Even if he opened the valve quickly it takes 30-60 seconds to start up a turbine, and the only usable power comes in at 90% anyway (for a helicopter) so I doubt it would have had any impact on performance.
@@codmott286 thanks. @ 4:00 this video says that the fuel supply was restored by the pilot while descending through 300 feet, but there was no time left to restart the engine. Perhaps he didn't even initiate the starting sequence. But then the big question will be why the floats failed to keep the helicopter in an upright position. Maybe some of them ruptured on impact with water.
By the way, passenger interference, inadvertently turning off the fuel shut-off valve, has caused a similar accident 25 years ago in my country. 10 people died on the overloaded Mi-2 helicopter when it crashed.
so a safety device killed 5 people, both in shutting off the helicopter and holding them inside while it flips over under water.
5 souls, bro. But your ironic take is spot-on.
safety device for the wrong application. A parachute is also a safety device but you wouldnt want to use one as a life raft. These harnesses and this joke of a flight operation with open doors and people hanging out was stupid all around.
You are right the harness should not have had that dangly bit.
The harnesses should have had quick release buckles and the passengers should have had instruction and training on how to exit the helicopter in an emergency.
In the UK, flights by helicopter are only allowed over the Thames, Helicopters are not allowed to fly over land within central London. The Helicopter in the animation could quite easily have come down on the populated parts of New York.
Offt! Yeah, didn't think of that.
On the -bright- side, at least they were easy to recover....
allowing a front passenger is inane, so many things they can bump into
This *SHOULD* have gone viral and with millions of views ... outstanding explanation and visuals.
That was an accident waiting to happen.
I don't think that the pilot did anything wrong here.
Just wondering if there need to be additional safety measures in place on these safety harnesses in the future, like two hand pulls to release the cable. Since this was most likely the cause of the fatalities.
Sad story nevertheless 😟
Agree it's sad. Underwater egress under stress is a learned skill, one that requires training and practice, and even then is not easy or foolproof....!
That fuel shutoff should have a safety. Like squeeze and pull
@@JoePJack1 no it shouldn't. The cockpit is made for pilots, not for passengers fiddling around with controls.
Not that this happened in this case, it was an accident - but the cutoff switch need to be found and operated very quickly in case of an emergency, or you will have accidents, injuries and deaths because the pilot had trouble to use the cutoff switch because some of the overcomplicated safety mechanism was faulty.
Ruben Kelevra well I’m a TH-cam engineer. It needs a safety.
@@JoePJack1 I think I shouldn't feed you any longer. *Plonk*
Could you do a follow-up video showing the release mechanisms on the harnesses used? How hard were they to unhook from in a packed helicopter like that? It seems like the passengers should have had time to unhook before being submerged if they weren't in a total panic already, but knowing the restraint system would shed light on whether that was really as easy as one might imagine. Very sad incident, but understanding the restraints and devising better standards for them could save others in the future. Obviously, some guidelines need to be set out on front passenger restraints as well, can't have loose bits snagging on controls. It sounds like the fuel cutoff should come with an audible warning too, that's not usually something pilots intend to do in the middle of flight and it's only recoverable if rectified immediately (as much as airbus loves computers I would have thought they'd train it to know that fuel being cutoff in flight is abnormal and have it send warnings, but whatever).
My earlier comment (a reply) remains true and relevant: underwater egress under stress is a learned skill that requires training and practice! Believe there are examples on TH-cam of the training US Coast Guard personnel get to do that very thing!
@@gus473 Oh I know, I've watched the Marine corps training for underwater egress, but I know if I were a passenger I'd have tried to get out of the restraints before impact or immediately after, before being submerged. So I'm curious how difficult it was for a passenger to unhook themselves even without being upside down underwater, with how tightly they were packed in there and the restraints used I have a feeling it may have been nearly impossible for someone to do themselves which would be a big safety issue. I think no matter what is done very few people would be able to extract themselves once inverted underwater, definitely requires more training than any layman off the street could aquire in a preflight briefing. Though better restraint design could make it possible for people to get free of their restraints before that happens.
Well since they used this restrain system they haven't been properly secured in their seat, only the pilot was. They was probably experiencing pretty large forces and not necessarily in a straight direction. The most likely cause is that they was knocked out on impact.
Panic and fear must have prevented their successful egress and could have clouded their judgement.
@@modelmode8 Very likely, would be my guess.
The cruel Irony of a killer safety device.
The pilot did a hell of a good job. If he had a little more altitude her probably could have saved it.
The flotation worked, but still caused the helicopter to be inverted. Very sad. Hopefully this can be improved over time and the engine is fixed as well. Condolences to the families of the loved ones on board.
there was nothing wrong with the engine. Dont put passengers in the front seat where they can randomly push buttons and pull levers
Cod Mott even so presumably the plan for an emergency ditching shouldn’t be that the pilot escapes and everyone harnessed drowns.
I think the flotation deserves more attention. That was the only thing in this entire incident that did not work as intended. If the the helo had stayed upright, everyone would have lived. This is a failure of the flotation system as much as it is poor practice / incorrect application of the harnesses.
Note at 0:46 the clearly visible harness cutting knife in the black pouch on his left shoulder. They have a V-slot, you just hook it over the harness strap and pull once.
Yeah I guarantee they didn't know it even existed which is really sad
None of the passengers were seatbelted in crash positions. They might not have even been conscious after impact with the water.
@@CorwinPearson It was a very soft touch down on water. They were absolutely conscious.
This is not pilot error but rather passenger error.
Pilot is responsible for flight controls...Not the passengers paying him for his expertise...Including assuring that restraint system presented a hazard.
A safety system that depends on the "expertise" of itinerant passengers, is not a system, but rather an accident waiting to happen.
sometimes safety systems are an added risk
Ummm small amount of aluminum and this would have never happened
What do you mean by that?
Airbus, as a manufacturer, has a sweet spot for ditching in New York. Helicopter pilot should have aimed for the Hudson river it has better ditching survival rate.
Now seriously, did you notice the pilot had to vacate the helicopter from the right side, which submerged first? This alone probably prevented him from assisting his passangers. But the 2nd engine restart attempt was probably a mistake, it would have been better to focus on briefing the passengers on closing the doors and unthethering them. Sometimes you have a very difficult choice between saving the aircraft (and your career), or, saving your passengers. Sully made a good decision on chosing the latter, early on , accepting that on the other hand, his Airbus will be a write-off and he may be reprimanded for that.
I Love this comment because I said the same exact thing considering they only had a minute to fall 1900 ft he definitely wasted time on the wrong things not to mention the time he wasted constantly trying to get LaGuardia to understand he had engine failure🤔😔
@@rethablair6902 Well, the old adage holds true again: aviate, navigate, communicate, in that order. I am quite sure however, that there is NOT A SINGLE person, who could perform flawlessly in that situation. Even Sully and Jeff made a few mistakes (e.g., ditch valves remained open). But at least we should prioritize and focus on doing well those actions that protect lives and make the mistakes with other actions. Easier said than done, but it's possible and it does reduce fatality rates.
@@rnzoli U are right i imagine we shall never know how things actually were up there on that tragic day but such a loss of young lives full of promise 😭
There were no doors they were "removed" and the passengers were briefed on how to unhook themselves before the flight. The problem was the overkill of the restraints that made it ridiculously difficult to unhook and was obviously designed by a hysterical permanently outraged liberal.
@@phillipkalaveras1725 i read the transcripts and don't remember them being told how to get free in case of trouble 🤔
They (the passengers) should've got back in and began to unharness themselves the minute they knew the helicopter was going down.
I think extreme panic must've set in and had them paralyzed by fear that's all i can imagine what made them reach for the knives at the last second😢
You should never do that. In these underwater egress training courses instractors teaches you to unharness yourself after the impact and at the time that the rollover motion of the helicopter has been stopped.But its extremely difficult to do that if you are not trained.
@@nas2kids
I'm talking about the particular harness they were using for open door photography, not their usual seatbelts.
The harnesses they were using can't be released by the wearer, only by someone else or cut with a knife. Which was apparently what they were supposed to do.
@@jtveg i think they were waiting on the pilot to tell them when to cut loose but he was pre occupied with trying to ReStart the copter instead of instructing them what to do
@@rethablair6902
You are probably right. Everything happened so quick that they really had no chance unless they immediately took action the instant they realised they were going down.
There should not have been a passenger up front, especially with loose cords/lines that close to the control levers.
Seems like a good case to be made against the city of New York for restricting pocket tools. One of them known as a pocket knife/ which could have saved lives...
I’m glad I live in Texas, where the city of Cypress doesn’t mind me having a good, sharp pocket knife on my person.
You can see the specialized harness knife on the person's left breast at 0:40. The shock of the crash followed by the cold water likely was enough that no one even got started cutting themselves free. Here's a video of a pilot who analyzes his doors-off flight with his family just weeks before this accident. th-cam.com/video/ofjRkCcIO9s/w-d-xo.html
I think I read that they were supplied with a web/belt cutter for emegencies. It looks like one can be seen at :56 on the harness, in the pocket
on the upper left arm strap. Not sure what the item with the wooden looking handle is.
Why didn't the pilot just head for Central Park seeing how it was the lesser of two evils😢
Because he wouldn’t have made it.
you dont really have a lot of directional control during an auto since every input uses energy. You basically just pick a spot directly ahead of you and decend
@@codmott286 i just figured based on the route the copter took the pilot must've steered it that way and the narrator did say that the pilot turned it toward the river😔
It's all so hauntingly sad how it went from the time of their lives to the end of their lives in eleven seconds flat😱😨😰😓