2021 Honda Civic Type R Suspension Walkaround - See The Engineering That Gives It Epic Handling
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- The 2020 Honda Civic Type R debuted several new improvements that have been carried over to this coming model year, including the 2021 Honda Civic Type R Limited Edition. But there has always been clever -- not to mention unique -- suspension engineering hidden within the wheel wells of this performance-tuned Honda Civic. The Type R is much more than a Civic with flared fenders, big tires, Brembo brakes and an insane wing. No, some real thought has gone into how to make this car really perform while also putting 306 horses of turbocharged fury through the front wheels alone. Normally, such a combination would create a ton of torque steer that the driver would have to tolerate and drive around, but here, the result is a fast front-drive car that is predictable and engaging to drive.
Not only that, the hidden suspension that makes the Civic Type R handle so well looks fascinatingly weird. In this video I’ll pull the wheels off and explain how it works. But I’m also going to go a step farther than that because this time I have a second set of Type R suspension parts that I lay out on a bench for a closer examination. Not only that, I’ll compare the front suspension of a normal Honda Civic to what they've specially engineered for the gonzo Civic Type R. Much of what you’ll see helps to understand why some of the changes made to the 2021 Honda Civic Type R Limited Edition -- such as its lightweight wheels that further reduce unsprung mass -- have real value.
Why am I doing this? Two reasons.
One, I’m a lifelong Honda Civic fan. Back in the day I used to race a 1988 Honda Civic CRX (yes, technically the CRX had the Civic name on it) and a 1989 Honda Civic Si. I’ve never owned or raced a Civic Type R, mainly because that model wasn’t offered for sale until car the I’m examining here debuted in 2017.
Second, I geek out over suspension stuff. I'm a former suspension development engineer that somehow stumbled into auto journalism, and for several years I created a popular photo feature called a Suspension Walkaround for Inside Line, a now-defunct offshoot of Edmunds.com (no relation). Today I have resumed writing these features under the name Suspension Deep Dive for Autoblog. Between the two outlets, over 100 of them have been published. Along the way I managed to grow a good-sized fan base, and one question I often heard was, “When are you going to make video versions?”
I never seemed to have the time, the equipment, or the confidence to get in front of the camera, but I got over that by hosting at least 80 professionally-produced videos over three years on the Edmunds TH-cam channel. If you like this, please tell your friends, click subscribe, share links, give it a like and check out the other videos on my channel, which is simply called Dan Edmunds. You can also type in the channel’s alias: SuspensionTuna. And I take requests. I can't promise that I can get my hands on any car or truck, but the odds are good. And the more views I get, the more horsepower I'll have when requesting cars to examine.
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Solid video. No one explains stuff like you do, especially the teardown
Thanks for the kind words. I was glad to get the parts for the teardown. I want to do more of that but, as you might expect, it's not easy to get loaner parts. More views and subscriptions definitely helps my case when I go asking, so spread the word!
I'm so glad I'm buying this car. Sold.
That is some IMPRESSIVE engineering done by Honda and this has to be one of the best explanations of the Type R's suspension I have seen on TH-cam. Well done! Congats on owning this truly impressive machine. The Type R is already a modern day legend! Subscribed!
Dual axis suspension also features on the
Mk2 Ford Focus RS
Renault Megane RS
Vauxhall Astra VXR
granted none of which were sold in 'Merica
@@minimumtrade Was also added to sporty versions of Buick LaCrosse.
And also Toyota super strut which was introduced in the 90s
Brilliant video, nice demonstration of the dual axis strut setup.
Thanks. It's a cool solution that's largely hidden from view. I just had to find a way to share it properly. Getting the parts was key, I think.
Amazing video. Makes me appreciate my Type R that much more.
I never comment on videos until watching this. Amazing analysis, top notch!
Best video about suspension I have seen so far in my TH-cam experience (since 2005) . I have not seen anyone who takes the vehicle apart and do the deep dive comparison.
Dan, I have been reading your "suspension walkaround" articles for over a decade. They have informed my last two car purchases. Now I finally understand how the CTR dual-axis front geometry works. Thank you so much and keep up the great work!
You picked the best color TYPE R IN MY OPINION to do your very interesting video!
Very, very appreciate the way you explain and showing mechanical parts, super easy to understand for a non-expert mechanic like me
This is why I upgraded from an Si to an R
Incredible grip and handling
Wow as a Type R owner this is very informative. You really know your stuff! Thanks
What a great video! Always looked for a breakdown of the front end setup. Kudos
Thanks a bunch. I'm always on the lookout for unusual suspension layouts that really work.
Never even knew you were making videos, glad I found this.
Outstanding.👍🏼
It had been suggested to me for a long time, but I finally did it with COVID forcing me to get creative about stuff I could do in my driveway. It didn't hurt that the iPhone 11 shoots decent video, and that my last couple years at Edmunds.com (no relation) was spent learning how to be a video host and working with producers. I learned enough to feel better about doing it.
Excellent combination of front suspension details on the bench and their context on the car. 👍🙂
Thanks a bunch for doing this entire video, and especially for showing on the bench the difference between the dual-axis McPherson parts vs a standard McPherson parts. I've seen all types of diagrams and animations around TH-cam with regards to the Honda setup, but was never able to grasp the full concept due to that extra holding clamp between the dual-axis carrier and lower control arm, as well as the axial differences from the shared strut top and the carrier ball joints and the standard lower ball joint between the knuckle and lower control arm.
Seeing the dual-axis parts on the bench was the eye opener for me. I had no idea about the carrier/a-arm locking clamp, or the fact that the strut didn't actually turn with the steering knuckle like a normal McPherson does. It seems to me like a dual-axis McPherson (whoever first designed it) setup gets the benefits of the double wishbone suspension that Honda used in the 90's, but avoids the complexity in parts and suspension tuning that double wishbone had?
Anyway, yeah..... Thanks a bunch for this! Very helpful.
Great video! I had a Type R back in 2017 and was extremely impressed with what it could do for a FWD car it was honestly amazing. Long story short I ended up selling the car about 6 months later and last year I bought an ND2 Miata and needed a daily so ended up buying a 2020 Civic Si as it was substantially cheaper than the Type R as well as a better daily in my opinion......and with the Miata I felt I didn’t need to spend the money for another R but I have to say there is NO COMPARISON between the Si and the Type R! I obviously didn’t expect it would be real close but whatever they did to turn the regular Civic into a Type R is insane. The Si isn’t a bad car but it lacks the steering precision and feedback, it has more torque steer despite having significantly less power, it has annoying lag and rev hang, it rides worse than the Type R despite having 18’ wheels instead of 20’s, and although I would expect my 2 door Si Coupes body structure to be even more rigid compared to the 4 door hatchback body style of the R it turns out that is also not the case as the Type R felt rock of Gibraltar solid while the Si is just merely “tight.” The Type R is a monumental achievement and improvement on the standard and even Si Civic and considering what the had to start with I can’t say enough about how impressed I am with the engineering that went into it. I don’t know of any other car that after 4 years on the market still commands MSRP or more (my friend just bought one based on my recommendation and couldn’t find one less than $2,500 over MSRP) but obviously that speaks volumes that there are people out there that appreciate what has gone into this car
hard to argue against the ND Miata. I'm a huge fan, and I personally have a long history with the car. Maybe I'll do a live stream about cars I've owned.
@@DanEdmunds that would be great!
very interesting. I have a Honda S2000, a 19 CTR, and a 99 NB Miata. All very different cars offering a very different driving experience. I've had the Miata for nearly a year now--bought from the 1st owner with less than 70K Miles. Although I will always have my S2000, I have developed a deep appreciation for the driving experience th Miata offers--after doing a number of track days on my s2000, including autocross, I felt I would appreciate the Miata's handling and light-on-it's-feet dynamics more than ever before. I love it and would like to get into a ND.2 one day.
@@DanEdmunds Hey Dan, really top notch content here. I have a S2000, 19 CTR, and picked up a 99 Miata about a year ago. This was my first Miata and it has really grown on me. I heard the ND has impressive build quality as it relates to its suspension as well. Hopefully you will get to do a video on the ND.
Another great walkthrough Dan! I'm surprised at how much development work went into the Type R suspension redesign considering it is only used on a relatively low volume model. The amount of aluminum in those parts partly explains why the MSRP of the Type R needs to be so much higher than the base models. The addition of the standalone components on the table really helped show the enormous differences between the designs, thanks for that! Keep up the great videos!
This is why I like doing this. Certain models cost more or handle differently than others, and it's easy to assume that it's just tires and a badge. This is NOT that.
Because it was impossible to beat the Megane RS Nurburgring lap time without it... as Renaultsport have been running the dual axis design for years.
Glad I found your channel Dan! I was a big fan of your "suspension walkarounds" back on InsideLine website. Need to catch up with the content :)
Thanks. I was as disappointed as everyone else when I was asked to start writing those. Now I do these videos for myself AND Suspension Deep Dives for Autoblog.
Dieser Type R ist unantastbar in seiner Klasse . Wirklich sensationell sportlich unterwegs . Und er sieht einfach geil aus .👍
Best video of F8K so far. The detailed parts made a huge difference 👍🏻
The Best explanation of type R suspension system I ever Seen everywhere. Thanks for All front Spain. Well done and very interesting
Awesome stuff! This is the best suspension breakdown I have watched on the Type R. Such a special car, making me think twice about messing with the suspension. I had spoon lowering springs, spoon rigid collars and white line anti-lift kit that I planned to put on the car.. I don't want to mess up what Honda did though.
As a former OE suspension development engineer, that was always a concern. That's too strong a word -- more a disappointment. With standard cars that are middle of the road, it's fine -- although many aftermarket tunes are not always fully vetted. But with a car like this, they have put a lot of effort into maximizing its potential. I think lighter same-sized wheels and tires -- much like the 2021 Limited Edition has -- will wring a bit more performance out of the car. The Limited Edition wheel/tire combo is 5.5 pounds lighter per corner, which is quite good.
Just this breakdown of the new type r suspension deserves more likes and views. Let alone the amount of money placed into getting comparisons on these 2. The knowledge is and walkthrough is priceless. Great video sir. I'm Upset this is my first time getting a recommended video from you but you got a new subscriber for life
Very well made instructional video,with comentry delivered in a clear,concise manner.
First video i have seen of the Type R`s suspension,so thank you very much from the more engineering minded amongst us.Greetings from the UK...good work.
Thank you very much!
Which nitwits gave this a thumbs down 👎🏽 ?? Excellent video !!! Keep up the good job 👍
Great video. As a 2019 Type R owner I really appreciate this video on how detailed it is. Thumbs up and subscribed
This is the first time I'm seeing one of your videos I did all of the things and about to take this deep dive into the dark art of suspension. Which is the most important thing after tires
Really great stuff! Takes me back to reading all of your suspension walkarounds on Insideline back in the day. Thanks!!
Thanks, Joel. In addition to these videos, I'm also writing the old suspension walkarounds for Autoblog under the name Suspension Deep Dive. Search my name on their site to see the list.
I have base k20C2 6MT and given the already featherweight, any extra weight loss is exponential. The front suspension design is simplistic but very effective. I hope Honda plays on it and makes it even lighter. Take enough weight off and it'll perform as well as the heavier setup. My current 16' RPF1 weighs 13.7lb on 215/55/16 UHP tires which is enough rubber for my 2700lb Sedan.
Thanks for another great video Dan. Where did you get those suspension parts? That must be a couple thousand dollars worth from a Honda dealer.
I know a couple of people that work at Honda, and they were able to help me get loaner parts.
The steering axis is in the middle of the tire, or close to it, which reduces the leverage torque steer would have over the steering linkage to almost nothing. Putting the wheel outside the steering axis increases the torque steer.
.
Pretty cool.
big thumbs up half way through, awesome content in this channel
Love your perspective. Informative and enjoyed learning about the engineering. Suspension doesn't get as much love as HP and it is so crucial to cars.
3:49 that height sensor is also used (most probably the only function in this application) for self leveling headlights. The system compares the height of the front in relation to the rear of the car, determining the tilt then adjusts the headlights accordingly (but very subtly).
It can be used for that, too, but it is part of the feedback loop that the dampers use to make adjustments.
@@DanEdmunds Oh I see. Thanks for the info.
This is fascinating, thank you for these videos!
Absolutely brilliant video, only lacking either captions with metric conversions, or a mention of proper units in line with imperial scales, when describing things, to make the rest of the world understand weights etc more easily (especially when you're already using millimetres in some descriptions!!)
Yes. I agree. I'm getting better at that with my ramp videos, but I'm not consistent yet. I'm still teaching myself producing, editing and VO as I go along. I will get there!
Great vid and great explanation! Thanks!
Thanks!
The Si also has electronic dampers, but they are only have two settings
Wow this is fascinating! I had no idea the new CTR suspension was made that way. I’m from the era of double wishbones on Honda front ends and never liked how they went to front struts in the early 00’s. This CTR setup is definitely a cool way to solve the torque steer issues. But unfortunately it’s still strut based, which means there’s very little negative camber gain as the suspension compresses, at the detriment of the car’s ultimate handling capabilities.
Dan, Thank you so much for such an informative video.
@6:43 and @12:17:
The common mounting strategy is absolutely critical to this design. If all Honda wanted was the best possible front suspension, they would use double wishbones, which would be lighter and work better. What they needed was to put a more capable front suspension in the Civic without changing the vehicle structure; like Ford (with RevoKnuckle in the Focus RS) they designed a complex system that behaves much like double wishbones but bolts into the body structure and subframe designed for a MacPherson strut, not needing additional structural mounting points for an upper wishbone.
This is what happens when a company makes a $50K performance car out of a $25K economy car, instead of designing a vehicle for the end purpose. The buyer pays a premium (even more than superior double wishbone) to get a complex suspension mounted to a cheap car.
Excellent, thank you! Seeing the parts out from under the car really makes visible the difference. Now have a '20 CTR that I'm loving. Once had a 4th Gen Prelude, would love to see a similar teardown of the 'old' double-wishbone and maybe even a comparison. Wonder if that will show up on your channel!
Excellent video. That dual axis suspension looks very interesting. Reminds me of the Revoknuckle and HiPer Strut designs. Same but different.
Thanks for your explanations. Would be glad to see a review of the latest Civic suspension. Preferably the normal people version 😉
Great video; I have a '21 in Boost Blue
I love that color.
@@DanEdmunds Yes, Im thinking of doing the roof in black like the limited edition. But dunno.
Amazingly informative videos! Really enjoyed learning about the Miata suspension as well!
Nice Video. Well done
Aluminum rotor hats also help to pull heat out of the hub bearing
Great video! I’m sure lots of us would love to see why a smaller wheel on the Type R hurts it’s performance and by how much.
beautiful way to explain it Thank you. This car is a master peace of engineering, also fantastic video Thank you
This is a great video, a lot of great information here, great job Dan!
This is the BEST video i ever seen explained
Thank You
I press like before it even starts 👌🏻
Wow, thank you for really getting into the details. This really helps with understanding how all the suspension components work together to make the Type R handle so well. Would be amazing to figure out a way to get an LSD and this same suspension engineering retrofitted onto a 9.5 generation Accord V6-6MT. Love mine! Can only imagine if it was given a similar all-around Type R treatment. I subscribed and really look forward to your future content, Dan!
Hello Sir can you do videos on the E36 M3 Z axles rear semi-trailing arm suspension, the E39 M5's Integral Link, and the double wishbone front + multi-link rear suspension on the 04-08 Acura TL/TSX (03-07 Honda Accord) platform. I think the 2000s era Honda benefited from Shigeru Uehara's on all of its platforms and you can see it in the suspension geometry design.
Fantastic video Dan. I'd happily watch you covering any car's suspension, but I think it'd be interesting to see your take on some out-of-production models to see what made their suspension interesting or unique - first that sprung to mind (no pun intended) was the DC2-generation Integra Type R.
I'm always up for that, but getting my hands on used cars is a lot more difficult than new ones. But, yes, I have a mental list in my head of things I would like to do.
Amazing video. Thank you !
Nicely done Dan. Also, your neighbors lawn is insane.
I hadn't noticed. I'm just glad they finally changed their sprinkler timing to night time.
Muy interesante el video. Saludos desde España crack!!! 🇪🇸
Wow thanks for the great video. I came across your video trying to learn all I can about the Civic Type R. I have test driven one and it was very exciting. I am in a pickle as the Type R lead my next new car but the V8 mustang in Grabber Blue was my leader from 2018. I thought since the last Grabber Blue was in 2017 that surely Ford would bring back this great color by 2020 or 2021. I am not sure it will ever return to the gas version GT. I learned a ton from your well explained video and this civic is so much better than the SI and the other Honda Civics. As a daily driver what is your take on this over the GT. Obviously the gas is a factor but I am actually thinking the Civic Type R may be better as the power in curves and the set up maybe better suited in more daily driver areas. Your take or anyone’s take. Thanks. Great work on the video.
Whoa great explanation! Maybe years from now the aftermarket performance tuner will develop products to replicate this system for more regular cars
Theoretically possible, but that'd be a lot of parts! And it would cost $$$. Also, the track width has to grow out of necessity, so in addition to the parts on the bench you'd need fender flares, longer driveshafts, longer tie-rod ends, longer brake hoses and ABS sensor wires -- and then you'd have to increase the track width and flare the fenders at the back to match. Theoretically possible.
I see. Be that as is may. I think that wouldn't be marketable due to cost n too radical.
Regarding the electronic dampers, the Civic Si also has this feature, my 2018 does .
Yes, but they made a change in 2020 to increase the operating/adjustment frequency of the system by 10x. Much more responsive.
Just found your site Dan! Videos are easy to follow along with your verbiage. Can you do a Honda Clarity, with particular emphasis on rear end? Thanks again
The Clarity is a weird one in the back. Might be worth doing if I can get my hands on one.
I really enjoy this video
Great video walkaround. What is the front motion ratio? Does the unique front design make the MR different than the standard Civic?
Great tutorial, on the Civic type R suspension. Best in depth vid yet. Explaining all components and how it all works in resolving torque steer! Having owned my 02' Acura RSX Type S for 16 years now. Any ideas on how to alleviate on this platform? Would it be possible to convert Civic Type R suspension onto an Acura RSX Type S. It is also lowered on Apexi N1 Dampeners. Any help would greatly be appreciated.
Awesome video
Loved this thanks. Bought 2021 type r last week.
Color?
@@RelaxAndSmokeMeth boost blue
@@arturklimek_pl6775 AWESOME! Hope you enjoy it!
I see that you recommend lighter wheels as a form of improvement, however, can you comment on how this change can affect the electronic dampers? I’m sure they are calibrated to the stock wheel weight. Awesome video!
Really awesome video, Sir!
Thank you!!!
You're welcome!
Really enjoyed this video and your explanations, subscribed......
Excellent Video :-)
Great explanation, thank you 👍
a real athlete, only the suspension is worth the difference in price with the clad CIVIC
Awesome video. Needs to be shown to all the "it's just a Civic" fools...
Also the chassis is technically different than the base in the construction.
good video i was wondering why i couldn't find the limit on my typeR now i know lol
Well done! Type R knowledge
would LOVE to see a video comparing the advantages of rotational inertia/unsprung mass using a carbon fiber wheel and carbon ceramic brakes vs the same car with aluminum wheels and cast iron brakes.
That was a bit of a mouth full.
I just noticed that everyone talks about the rotational inertia benefit with a carbon fiber wheel but they rarely point it out with Carbon ceramic brakes discs?
Agree. But don't be too hard on them. The wheel effect will be greater because the radius of the center of mass (the subtracted mass) will be larger. It's also easier for the average armchair analyst to get comparative wheel weights to talk about. And it's easier to imagine swapping out your own wheels than changing over an entire brake system.
Great Info Dan!
I am a Veloster N owner, I’d love to take a type R for a spin! I have a feeling that I’ll stick with my lovely pops and bangs though 🤟🏻😉
I like the N, but this one is insane. Give it a try if you get the chance.
@@boolji thats why I got myself a 2021 boost blue type r, no pops can substitute a type r badge
Would it be possible if you did a video about the dreaded 2 mode Focus RS OE struts/springs? Countless threads on the poor driving dynamics and possible solution products.
Love it. Thanks! Just subscribed.
Hey Dan, great video. I was curious about the last bit on the rear suspension, when the shorter link swings upward does it sort of pull the longer link inward towards the front of the wheel well to increase toe? I was trying to envision how increasing the stiffness of that bushing on the large link would increase the toe in. I wondered if you wouldn't mind explaining that. Thanks!
Basically, as the two links swing upward, as they do as the outside tires compress in a turn, the shorter rear link will cause the tire to toe in. Now, a squishy rear bushing can mute that outcome somewhat, so making it stiffer makes the effect a bit more pronounced. I spoke to some Honda engineers about this, and they, said that was precisely why that bushing change was made in 2020.
Really good review
Please create a video with the new changes of the info system panels
Excellent tnx👍🏻
Thanks again for a very interesting suspension analysis video. You should probably also considering teaching automotive in a University. Would be glad if you could analyse an Alpine A110 on your channel. I am not sure if they are sold in USA.
Thanks. I appreciate that. I would love to get my hands on an Alpine, but they aren't sold here.
Dan, since you clearly know whereof you speak, what do you think about downsized aftermarket wheels & tires for the Type R? Having a higher section height might make daily driving less fraught and smaller wheels & tires means less unsprung weight. Seems like a win win, but I worry about messing up careful engineering from the factory.
Really interesting video 👍
Great demo, I love this type of video. quick question, the imaginary line from the upper ball joint thru the lower ball joint, when that line intercepts the center of the contact patch is that called zero scrub? do all modern cars achieve zero scrub radius?
The distance between that point and the center of the contact patch is the scrub radius. Incidentally, readers of Sport Compact Car might remember it as The Dave Point, after author Dave Coleman got tired of calling it "the place where the projected steering axis intersects with the ground" and claimed the name for his own. Anyway, not all cars achieve zero scrub, and most don't come all that close. In fact, there is a bit of debate as to whether zero-point-zero is the best move. A small scrub radius is definitely a very good thing in most cases, but I stopped short of calling this a 0.0 scrub radius because I don't know the spec.
Any idea on the weight differences between the aluminum LCA vs the standard steel LCA? Thanks!
I'm curious how long the suspension and struts will last. Roads aren't exactly perfect in Romania. The speeds and G force that my car sees on a weekly basis is hard on components.
Please review the new FL5
I feel like those wheels and tires are pretty heavy at 53 lbs. My set of 245/40R20 and aluminum rims come in at just a hair over 45lbs (2012 Lincoln MKS stock wheels/tires were 60lbs). I would think that a type R would be lighter.
great video, could you explain how electronic suspension works, and what is magnetic suspension?
I plan to get inside some shock absorbers to show how that all works. Getting the parts is hard, though!
What's the RTI score on this bad boy?
/Joking
Right? I like splitters. I hate tearing them up. If a car like this can get up my driveway without scraping or coming in at an angle, I'm good.
I really appreciate your response dan. Once I need to change this tire I'm planning to switch it to 245/40/20 all season tire. Do you think this is a good idea cause I don't wanna lose the warranty on the car if I switch the rim size itself!
You are amazing dan. Just got a 2021 championship white 3 weeks ago. Just put 38 miles on it. Is it true no matter how you take care of the car the tires on the type r last about 10 to 15 thousand miles. I bought it cause I want it but not planning to use it. Need your advise!!!!
Don't daily this thing with those tires. It doesn't make sense. These tires will be toast within 10k miles if you drive hard.