Ups & Downs From Star Trek: Lower Decks 4.6 - Parth Ferengi's Heart Place
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2023
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Seán Ferrick: we need to talk about that down you gave for Mariner's story this week.
Last week Mariner -- for the first time in her Starfleet career -- had someone support her and see through her BS. Ransom: D-E-S-T-R-O-Y-E-D her identity. 100% for the better, but he destroyed the self-destructive self-image that had been put upon her by all her previous CO's. She's a kid with ADHD who has been told they're lazy for so much of their lives, they finally accepted "lazy" as their identity.
This week she's falling back into her old patterns, because they're comfortable, they're all she knows, and she is STILL waiting for the other shoe to drop with Ransom, because she knows trust isn't binary; it's built. She's still trying to confirm to herself that she's not worthy of love and support by self-destructing like she always does.
This time, however, it is not making her happy like it used to. She's forcing it, and that is frustrating and scaring her, because she has yet to figure out who she is without that being her identity. In addition she's looking around and seeing that she FINALLY has a CO who supports her, friends who love & care about her, a career that is moving in a positive direction, and an improving relationship with her mother. All of which terrifies her, because -- in her mind -- it's all going vanish, because she doesn't deserve any of it.
If anyone deserved a down for Mariner's story it's Ransom for not once checking on her, and I don't mean in a, "Hey you behaving yourself Lieutenant," but in a, "Hey I'm not on duty for a few hours and I've never been to Ferenginar, let's grab dinner you pick the spot. I'll beam down at 1600," or something.
Anyway...as someone who has been very much where Mariner is she didn't deserve a down for showing us that healing emotional wounds is hard (and that's gotta be what she's dealing with, because people who are fully emotionally healthy don't self-sabotage).
Except the problem is that Mariner has had people to support her since S1, and she has been aware of THIS since season 1. As far back as the vinditica episode where she literally fought an almost exact replica of herself who she made aware of her own self sabotage, and who made her aware that she does have support and care. The complaint that Sean made isnt that Mariner's characters isnt realistic, but what the show is doing with her character is becoming repetitive. In just about each season she has had arc of this nature already.
@@darryljack6612 Yet this seems to be the first time where things have finally gotten down to brass tacks.
Yeah. Hell, this is a thing the *My Little Pony* show did, with a character getting over something and that taking multiple episodes. It's kinda embarrassing for TrekCulture that they miss something that literal actual preteen children were picking up on.
she is clearly triggered by being forced into a higher rank- something she was actively trying to stop@@darryljack6612
What @naunga9450 said. 100%! Mariner's mental health journey being "three steps forward, two steps back" is absolutely realistic and appropriate. She's made a LOT of progress in the past few seasons. She's been confronted and called out (in constructive and not-so-constructive ways). She's been provided unconditional support. She's actually accepting support from her friends for the first time in her life. She's more free from the contrived *necessity* of her unhealthy patterns of acting out than she ever has been before.
However, once we find ourselves free of previous patterns we often find ourselves adrift in a vast wasteland of possibility. Sometimes we revert to previous patterns in search of familiarity and shelter from the unknown. In doing so, sometimes we risk taking a significant step backward, but sometimes we manage to learn more about how and why those patterns exist in our lives. The more we learn about what we're leaving behind, the easier it is to tackle the unknowns ahead of us. Mariner was lucky to have her Ferengi friend present and aware enough to act as a safety net for her lapse.
So, on the plus side, she's seen what a relapse to old patterns looks like, recognizes that she needs to establish new patterns for her progress to continue, and is beginning to realize that maybe she can't just fly solo on her mental health journey. On the minus side, I think Dr. Megleemo is the Cerritos ship's counselor so finding meaningful mental health guidance may be tricky. But, maybe, she'll develop the presence of mind to lean on her friends a bit more in the future as she develops better patterns of behavior.
I buy Mariner slipping. Healing isn’t a straight line. It’s up and down! It would be weird if she magically got fixed after one moopsy.
Hmm…now I’m imagining a TV show called “Fixed By a Moopsy”.
Agreed
It may have something to do with her relationship with Jen.
Being a little myopic there, Sean old man
I agree, plus it’s not like she’s acting out in front of a superior like Ransom in order to get demoted. She’s reverting for sure except it’s in the presence of an old friend, which may make her more likely to behave how she did when they last interacted.
Quark’s Federation Bar & Grill is actually a nod to the real-life DS9 Promenade & Quark’s Bar found in the now closed Star Trek: The Experience from The Hilton Las Vegas. The real life location had both Voyager and the Enterprise D hanging on the ceiling.
I was just gonna say! I saw that and immediately thought “wait, I think I’ve been there…”
I actually had a chance to go there once back when it was open. It was a surreal experience with pretty good food as I recall.
I was going to say this. I only ever went there once but it was such a great experience.
Man I miss that place
Oh, you beat me to it that was the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw that I had been to that experience at the Las Vegas Hilton several times and I miss it tremendously.
I'm a social worker and I can tell you that the set back with Mariner is actually normal. People just don't stop tendencies like this, especially life long problems, right away, it's basically a type of addiction, and addictions have to be worked at to change. So I am not bothered by this. You just can't expect her to change right away. What they have done with her is actually more realistic. Recognizing you have a problem is just the first step.
A miglimo episode where people of crew deal with their problems. Mariner & Boimler dealing with their deep problems, Miglimo & tendi just having a wholesome time coz tendi is perfect :D
@@shreyam1008 Miglimo was set up as a smug incompetent, so maybe an actually good guest counselor, but otherwise that would make for an interesting season 5 (season 7?) episode. We would see how far they've all come and how much further they still have to go. (And Tendi *does* have lingering shame about being a pirate and maybe what's really going on with her and Rutherford. Remember "Don't date Barnes"?)
@@fmitchell238a LOL 😆 the whole crew could do with some serious therapy! Could make for a hilarious episode. Like maybe Starfleet sends in a counselor for a "routine" visit or something.
God please yes. I did feel that "down" whas entirely undeserved. Personal development isn't a straight progression.
@@JeghedderThomas Thank you. That's exactly right!
I don't know where Sean is getting "this has been done to death, it's well-trodden ground."
Because when they did this in season one and season two, it was played for pure comedy! The takeaways at the end were either "ha ha, isn't this funny and zany!" or "Mariner is actually right and cool and badass."
Like the episode where she and Ransom fight over who gets to duel an alien to the death, which ends on a pure comedy beat; her getting hauled to the brig while screaming "I'll bathe in your blood!" and Ransom being oddly aroused by it. Or the two or three episodes where she ends up in the brig and its all "whatever, I love the brig, Tendi will come by and play Klingon music for me."
This is not that.
It's just... not. This episode of Mariner nonsense doesn't end on a joke, and it doesn't end with Mariner smugly in the brig crowing about how awesome she is. It ends with her drunk and isolated and beat up and unhappy. It ends with her facedown on a workbench in mental turmoil. It does the standard "Mariner goes buck wild" stuff and then goes in a completely different place with it than it used to.
That's progression! That's MASSIVE character progression! It's a transition from "Mariner is a straight-up force of nature" to "oh, shit, Mariner is straight-up mentally ill." Completely different things.
I'd like to know what he WANTS from Mariner in terms of progression. For her to just... be better and be a competent, with-it, slightly zany junior officer? That's sort of dull, and it also hasn't been earned yet. Mariner needs help. She's on the way to getting that but she still needs it, and "I for sure want to be in Starfleet" and Ransom saying "I believe you" isn't enough.
Fully agree w all of this, but I’d also posit that they’ve been laying the groundwork that her behavior wasn’t just done for funsies from the very first season. We see this when her friend captains the Cerritos and Mariner starts purposely acting stupid until the shit got real. Then, she sharpened up considerably and we learn that were not for some as yet to be revealed reason, Mariner was expected to be much, much further than she is in her career. Not unlike the Type A teacher’s pet in my grade 6 class who began ditching class in grade 9 so often she couldn’t even remain in cheerleading and dropped out entirely by grade 11.
You’re right that the ending of this was extremely different from the way Mariner’s other escapades typically have ended in the past. She’s honestly disgusted with herself, rather than proud and seems embarrassed for causing problems for the friend who bailed her out.
Mariner "going backwards" is something incredibly realistic. Healing isn't a straight road and i personally really felt for her in this episode as this has happened to me too
But he didnt say that it wasnt realistic, that wasnt the complaint.
@@darryljack6612 He never mentioned realism at all. He said we've already seen this kind of breakdown with Mariner - which is true. But as mentioned, life isn't like that and people *do* regress and do self-destructive things even when they *know* they shouldn't.
@@StockportJambo ???... I never said that he mentioned realism, what i stated was that the factor in the judging of the down, was for the repetitiveness of the treatment of the character. Or to make it simpler, what the down was given for was not Mariner and her growth but the repetition of writing in regard to her storyline, that is the gripe that is being had, not the notion of her backsliding in of itself, but the shows handling of it.
@@darryljack6612 But it was *deliberately* repetitive, and it makes sense why it would be. The issue for me isn't really the 'down' as such, but more Sean's promise that if / when they do this again (and you can bet they will - especially if this is ever going to be resolved & dealt with) it'll result in a trellium down. I think on this occasion, Sean massively missed the point of Mariner's regression in this episode. Just my opinion.
Agreed.
You’ve completely misinterpreted Mariner’s growth. Last time she was dealing with a commander that had faith in her. Because of that, this week she is struggling with a loss of her perceived identity. She backslides deliberately to try to hold on to her perception of who she is. Her growth this season has built on and changed every episode. She’s being forced to face a fundamental change to everyone’s perception of her, including her own, and from fighting it in different ways, much akin to the stages of grief.
I think there's more going on than that. It may very well turn out that Quimp and her having that conversation next to the Dominion War Memorial might very well be significant foreshadowing...
Kinda like Jack O'Neill getting promoted to general and being put in charge of the Stargate program: "I’ve spent my whole life sticking it to the man. If I do this, I’ll be the man. I don’t think I can be the man."
Yeah, I've got to agree with you there. Sean is completely missing the point of Mariner's story here.
Rom’s baseball obsession is awesome as Grodenchek was a semi pro shortstop who had potential to go full pro. In “Take Me Out To The Holosuite” he had to play left handed to look awkward enough to make it seem he’d never played
Didn't know that. Thanks for the info and have a good weekend. :)
@@zqxzqxzqx1yep, Grodencheck probably had the MOST baseball skill of the entire DS9 cast and had to play act as being the worst 😂
I always loved that fact after learning about it years ago.
That joke at the Memorial to Lost Profits was hilarious to me. That Ferengi crying about all the money that could have been made was just perfectly Ferengi.
I was wheezing at that joke
Right?!?
and the joke of the Cerritos being statistically the horniest ship in starfleet, I bet they'll follow that storyline
Besides the “This place is like heaven if God was stupid” joke the Memorial to Lost Profits was an amazing joke made even better by that one Ferengi just wailing in the background while everyone is talking.
Quark actually mentioned that behavior in "Homefront":
"knowing that rampant inflation and currency devaluation were burning like wildfires through the lush financial landscapes of my home. It still depresses me even today. I remember thinking my accounts needed me, and there was nothing I could do. I felt so, so helpless."
how the hell did you not up the best line said in the episode: "statistically, the Cerritos is statistically the horniest and least romantically committed crew in Starfleet"
My latinum up would have been Migleemo's line: "You don't have to throw up in my mouth twice."
Given Starfleet canonically has no rule against Captains dating their own crew, I shouldn’t be surprised they kept track of this 😂
Gene would be so proud ❤
Up😂
Mariner not magically being able to magically just fix herself is super realistic. Rutherford saying “You mean I can ask for things I deserve?” Made it click in my head that these are all Neuro Divergent characters.
Not exactly neurodivergent, just flawed humans like everyone else.
Re drunk Mariner:
Actual real people usually backslide after insight into their own unconscious/compulsive behavior. Everyone does it, everyone has their weaknesses. Behavior around food, alcohol, narcotics, money, people of the desired gender, needing to mature, managing their emotions etc.
People recognize their weaknesses, swear they’ll do better, and then don’t. Looks normal to me.
Yeah that makes good comedy tv
@@OhNoTheFace yeah comedy means a rise in fortune. It will end well. But it’s normal for comedy to deal with dark themes.
I think it’s extremely realistic that Mariner is feeling this way, and lashing out. Mental health isn’t as neat as things being resolved the moment you know you’re doing something. Whether it was done well or enjoyable, that’s another matter, but it makes total sense that Mariner’s not done figuring this stuff out.
We’re absolutely coming back to this, because if it’s actually going to be resolved, we need more. One more, specifically. Rule of threes.
Yes, thank you. That was super irritating me. She acknowledged she had a problem in the other episode. Not only does that not solve it, she didn't know then why, and they made that clear, and she still doesn't.
Agreed.
This. Absolutely this. I'm happy it's *not* getting swept under the rug.
I said this during the livestream. Self confience and betrayal isn't as simple as screaming "GET OVER IT."
Thank you! This one was getting to me as well. Mental health isn't something that can be resolved so quickly. Humans and aliens written by humans are way more complicated than that
For me, the Latinum Up was definitely the War Memorial. A commemoration of all the *profits* - not people - lost in the Dominion War is the most Ferengi thing ever.
EXACTLY! That plus the Cop Landlords show tells you everything about Ferengi culture in one go!
In all fairness the loss of profits likely included the loss of people which means the loss of valuable customers after all. The concept of a "useless eater" is logically alien to a culture that values exploiting mindless consumption by idiots as a source of revenue.
The way Captain Freeman won over Rom really reminds me of how Captain Pike got the R'ongovians to enter an alliance with the Federation - both Rom and the R'ongovians appreciated a partner who who could see things from their point of view
From that scene, I got vibes from The Ensigns Of Command when Captain Picard demands third party arbitration by the Grizzelas to prevent the Sheliak from destroying the human colony on Tau Cygna V in order to get enough time to evacuate the colony.
I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought of that episode. But then it helps that I only finished watching season 1 of Strange New World this month 😊
Notice Rom signed the STANDARD version of the contract. It was never about getting anything extra.
Note that he only signed it _after_ getting tricked into signing a *much worse deal.* I don't 💯 buy that the whole thing was a test from the start-I think, at the end of the day, Rom is "Ferengi as a mother****er" and would have gladly taken a treaty that included water rights to San Francisco Bay. But when he realized he'd been played, he was like, "Haha, yeah! It was all a test! And _you passed!"_ 😅
@@GSBarlev Now you've got me thinking.
On the one hand, it's our dear Rom.
On the other, it's a Ferengi leader...
Who knows.
I don't actually mind Mariner's backsliding a bit. People do that. They chafe at their own progress and become tempted to fall back into self-destruction because it's easy and familiar, even when they've made great strides. (I may possibly have relapsed in my addiction lately. This episode may have come... exactly when I needed it.)
Hope you get back on the right path. I know it isn't easy. Whatever strength you need to make that happen, I hope you find it.
Ditto. @@Brasswatchman
I feel the same way sometimes. I don't know why it's so hard to sometimes just stay on the path I outlined. Going back to old habits when that's not the path I want to follow anymore. Old habits truly do die hard..
@@Brasswatchman @michellegiacalone1079 Thank you both. I mean it.
@@Brando501st It's a struggle. You think you're there and it's a relief to breathe free air, and then it's all around you again. I see my therapist on monday. Time to own up. I wish you strength. Thank you for sharing.
My interpretation of what's happening with Mariner in this episode is that she was a young angry punk, but now all the reasons that made her a young angry punk have disappeared. She has a great relationship with her mother, colleagues she loves and who love her back, and most importantly a nice and extremely supportive commanding officer. Everything she could ever have wished for came true, and she has absolutely no idea how to deal with it.
She's a rebel without a cause, and my guess is that the conclusion of Mariner's arc this season will be about her having to accept that new situation, that for the first time, things are good for her, and that's okay.
But the sort of "punk for punk's sake" thing doesn't fit with what we know of her background. Her academy classmates thought so well of her they expected her to be the first captain in the group which means she wasn't initially a rebel, and her parents have been covering for her for years so that good relationship was always there for the taking. She had no apparent reason to be young and angry. Until whatever happened to her between there and here is addressed nothing is likely to change.
@@Vipre- I mean, it's been heavily implied that Mariner used to be an exceptional Starfleet recruit until *something* happened early in her career that turned her into a bitter rebel with enormous contempt for senior staff and Starfleet protocol.
Whatever happened was probably really traumatic, but considering Mariner's personality, there's a good chance she thinks she got "over it" and as such doesn't really understand why she's acting the way she currently does herself (re. her confusion when Ransom confronted her with her attitude during the Menagerie trip). Her arc this season will most likely be to have to deal with those unresolved issues.
Freeman totally rocking the Cristopher Pike method of negotiation.
No ups for "You don't have to throw up in my mouth twice?" I was properly laughing out loud. I love Migleemo so much!
I liked Mariner's story about the struggles with personal growth. In fiction growth is pretty linear. Once a lesson is learned, or some growth is achieved, that's the expectation.
Life isn't actually like that. So I appreciated that Mariner is struggling with the change.
Garth Marenghi's dark place is the greatest English horror series ever.
the fact that Mariners tough love moment with Quimp happens AT the Dominion War Memorial REALLY makes me think they are giving further clues to the source of Mariners issues. This episode very much show cases also how -good- Captain Freeman is at diplomacy, she should be on a Luna or something.
Citation observations: you missed a deep cut. At 15:44 into the ep, when Tendy is sitting with Rutherford in the restaurant, there is a Ferengi female sitting with a male companion who is naked and they use a table as a censor bar to cover her chest. eluding to the amendment to the Ferengi bill of opportunities from "profit and loss" episode of DS9 when Zex added the new amendment that allowed women to wear clothing. allowed doesn't mean having to. there are a few glimpses and the last one is at 16:53 (the same time as the two fernegie are sent to the aquatic sulfur mines.)
Cetacean?
All naked Ferengi ladies in that scene were pixelated. So at least the video editor did notice them.
@@muche6321 lol not on mine. :)
@@bluemagus2424he meant they were pixelated in the episode review, not on the episode itself.
The Ferengi woman, who ordered a cheeseburger, is wearing shoes.
The 'homewrecker deal' was just the cherry on to of that whole wonderful sundae that was the Tindi/Rutherford storyline for this episode ... with the epilog of them shoving themselves tightly into the Jefferies tube being the chocolate syrup drizzle to finish the dish. Loved it. ❤❤
I just hope they remember to have a quiet word with Miglymoo to clear things up as I could see the thought that two of his crew mates being " In love with him" would go straight to his head 😂
With Mariner's backsliding, I think that part of it is somewhat of a thing where she's dealing with an old friend rather than others, she might feel more like she needs to fall back on things there because of it
Mariner's backsliding could be read as an addiction story. Personally I found Quimp's words dead on for that, and honestly, they were words I needed to hear. Mariner is addicted to her rebellion, her behavior and actions have consistently been those of an addict. I don't know if that is where the writers are going with it, but it's all to familiar too me.
I think it's perfectly fine for Mariner to still be the way she is so shortly after being confronted about it by Ransom. That was essentially the first time she had been told and came to realise that she was self sabotaging.
To expect her to change immediately from then on is frankly...well. dumb. If you're told you're depressed are you expected to immediately stop being depressed? No. It takes time to see change. To see growth.
It's NOW about seeing her change. She still doesn't understand the WHY she is being that way. So It makes sense to me that we'll likely SEE her try to figure that stuff out. Not just sweep the entire thing under the rug like some 1 dimensional throw away character arch.
I'd honestly be pissed off if mariner wasn't still carrying some of this stuff until she figures herself out. People DO NOT change that fast.
Oh yeah. The down was injust
Still done to death and we are bored of it
@@OhNoTheFace speak for yourself. Watch something else if you're bored of it, some of us actually appreciate some actual character development.
@@OhNoTheFace Personally, I'm glad Trek has evolved past its one dimensional flat writing so characters can have forward moving growth that's more realistic and dynamic rather than a perpetual reset button at the end of the episode, but you do you fam ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I really buy Marinet slipping up here. She is making progress, but real character progress is rarely a straight line. And for people that have depression or other mental health issues, there is something inherently relatable to having everything currently going well and that somehow makes you feel worse because you clearly are not the kind of person that that situation should be happening for. I'm a big fan of Mariner and Tawny's performance, for a show that could so easily be dumb jokes with no depth, I think there is a surprising depth to how they portray growth and the challenges that can bring.
The issue with Mariner is definitely going to be coming back. Mariner's self destructive behavior has been her main flaw since day one and while she has gotten better at dealing with it we've never really figured out why she's like this. What little that has been revealed about Mariner's past paints a picture of someone who was a go getter set to quickly clime the ranks. Something happened that has caused Mariner to self sabotage herself to the lowest rank in the fleet. This was Mariner's safe space, a place with no real responsibilities that let her be in Star Fleet without having to really worry about anything serious(beyond the regular crazy of the week). Being promoted has taken her out of that safe place and she's starting to lash out. I think all of this is going to lead to us finally figuring out what made Mariner like this in the first place.
My theory is that she served in the Dominion War and was being promoted for her service but the difficult decisions she had to make, decisions that probably cost the lives of friends, left her traumatized. Mariner wants to be a lower decker forever because that means she will never have to make a difficult command decision ever again. Being promoted is forcing her to face the issues that made her sabotage her career in the first place.
I interpreted Tendi and Rutherford completely differently. In my interpretation this didn’t confirm they are platonic, it confirmed they are in denial or not ready for a relationship.
A few points from the episode:
-Tendi talks about going topless in front of him
-They compliment each other after dressing nice and Tendi really takes the compliment in in a seemingly deep way (in a good way).
-Say I love you too each other, *jokingly* of course (wink wink).
-crawl into a 1 person sized Jeffries tube together after Ruth carried her like a bride. They squeezed into a missionary like position with their legs intertwined. At which point Tendi says “this feels right” or something akin to that.
I think they are both in hardcore denial. They both have feelings but also are afraid of pursuing. And I think it’s due to their pasts. Tendi is distancing herself from Orion culture and the women treat their men a certain way. She probably doesn’t want to end up dominating Rutherford and so is afraid. Rutherford obviously has a checkered past and it’s not a stretch to think he probably hurt a lot of women back in his angry ship racing days. Probably is afraid of hurting Tendi. And both are afraid of losing what they have and so are either in denial or are refusing to take the next step
Edit: topless not “to plead”
It's an open question to me just how much Rutherford remembers about his past, but a lot of this strikes me as a valid reading.
Though I'm not quite sure what you mean by "going to plead in front of him"?
also knowing Rutherford i think he would believe that pursuing a romance would change how they act towards each other, not realising things could stay the same (and more) even if they were together. and/or just flat up not knowing that if he asked or made moves tendi would probably reciprocate... similar to how he over thought getting his promotion earlier in the season
@@Brasswatchman yeah that was a typo. I fixed it but it was suppose to say “go topless” not “to plead”
@@TheGamerDonut Gotcha, thanks. That makes much more sense.
Well said. Also from a writers standpoint, the “will they, won’t they” dance is way more fun.
I LOLed when Rom and Leeta wanted the Admiral to dance and he started doing the most awkward dance ever. That's an Up in my book!
I think you’re supposed to be upset about Mariners relapse. I also think it’s good that they showed it because for a lot of people they will progress and then regressive it and then progress again. I don’t think it’s realistic when a character has this moment realization then everything is perfectly fine after. I’m hoping that this is a realistic way of self improvement and that she’ll look back at this moment like I don’t wanna do that again. And many people there might be another step back after four step forward, but she’s still stepping forward
I think the biggest thing about Mariner "slipping" as you said, she had some growth in the moopsey episode, but she still ended that episode feeling like despite being angry and self sabotaging, she was still justified in being that way because it helped prove her point that there was something going on. Self justification of a bad habit is one of the biggest parts of a personal problem, this episode ended with her having proved nothing because there was nothing else going on, so she couldn't just neatly bottle it up and put a bowtie on it, she's quite obviously at the end of this episode completely lost in thought about why she is that way, because there's no justification she can put on it, and she can't just file it away like her other outbursts.
I think we hit on this Mariner story line again because we are finally going to find out why all the angst and demotions to begin with, and I think it will be a whopper.
My thoughts exactly.
I'm expecting there to be needless deaths due to a senior officer's bad orders and her first demotion it's going to have been for disobeying orders from that same officer to try and save the lives of her friends.
Tendi's delivery of the "-with NOTHIN up top!" line was beautiful.
Have to disagree with the Mariner down. Struggle is a real thing, just one self realization doesn't mean you stop completely in that feeling. I think its very realistic that someone makes a gain and then can have a backslide. She ain't done growing yet.
Agreed
There should have been an up for the line: "Since the Cerritos famously is the horniest, but romantically least comitted ship in starfleet, ..."
Part of me really likes how Ups and Downs is longer than the actual episodes. There’s so much to unpack in them!!
In addition to everyone bringing up Mariner slipping being perfectly understandable and not surprising, there's a point I want to mention: it's entirely appropriate that Mariner has this sort of emotional breakdown and catharsis moment at the Dominion War monument, as she served in the background on Deep Space Nine during the War.
My money's on Mariner having lost someone (or multiple someones?) during the War, and she still can't get over it. She's trying to stay and Ensign and stay a Lower Decker because someone died under her command (remember: she's been busted down in rank before), and she doesn't want to be put in a position where that might happen again.
Lower Decks gets better every year.
That one moment with her CO was only a step in her progress. They are showing that Mariner is more broken than you think. She is finally realizing that she definitely has a problem and that its her and not everyone else.
Mariner's slide back is perfectly understandable... In some ways, she's frightened of the comfortable way she's living and wants to go back to the destructive method she had before. Once more, we know something terrible happened to her in the Dominion War but there is maybe some still lingering stuff from being shunned by the majority of the crew as well as her girlfriend Jen for which we've not a resolution yet
Edit: Forgot to mention that its nice to see them working on the "fixer upper" shuttle
Quark's Starfleet Experience a lot like the Vegas Star Trek Experience. Glad I was around to experience it
RIght? I'm shocked how this reference escaped so many. One of Lower Deck's more clever deep cuts imo
Same. ☺️. I was living in Vegas then and walked around the ST Experience completely Starstruck many times . 🤩🖖🏼
As someone who has fought depression, mental health issues, and self destructive behaviors, I am going to have to take exception with the down for Mariner. Lower Decks is hilarious, but it is also very deep and profound at times, and Mariner's journey to healing is absolutely real and relatable. This will probably not be the last relapse, but every time she gets up from one, she is further along the road to healing. And I am here for it.
I think Mariner's frustration is because she's scared that now that people are giving her a chance, she doesn't know if she can actually live up to their expectations. Being a screw up was easy because no one expected anything from her. They just didn't resolve that thread now. I bet they will during the season finale, though...same as Rutherford and Tendi.
Also, there's a blink and you'll miss it of a naked female Ferengi at a table in the background as a reference to DS9 where Quark thought his mother wearing clothing was obscene.
Rutherford and Tendi are IMO completely head-over-heels with each other, but neither of them want to risk their friendship or their working relationship by taking it that extra step. You can see in this episode whenever things get 'awkward', they revert immediately to work matters & finishing each other's sentences. It's a pressure cooker that's bound to blow sooner rather than later.
I think Mariner's mood and actions are pretty in line for someone that intellectually understand they have a problem but can't figure out what the emotional cause is. As long as they don't wallow in it, like if she goes to therapy in a future episode and gets down to the reason she acts up then it'll be great character development.
I love how animated the Ferengi eyebrows are! I doubt we'll see them this expressive if we see them in live action again.
Great video but you totally missed the fact that Quarks Restaurant looks EXACTLY like the real Star Trek restaurant that used to be at the Star Trek Experience in Las Vegas! It was a big round room like that with the Enterprise and Voyager hanging from the ceiling.
Lower Decks seems to be very good at doing certain things in a very realistic way, and Mariner's character development not sticking on the first try is incredibly true-to-life. Ymmv on whether you think it's entertaining or not, but it takes a tremendous amount of effort & discipline for personal growth to actually stick for even the most thoughtful, reflective, dedicated people. And Mariner is, um... *not that*! She's probably most hard-headed being in existence in the late 24th century, trying to unlearn an extremely self-destructive mindset and a galaxy class-sized ship's worth of bad habits while also probably having some presumably undiagnosed mental health issues on top of it. And it seems clear she still doesn't fully trust her support system yet or seem particularly convinced that the changes she needs to make and/or the path they'll lead to are even worth the effort either.
Given everything that happened at the end of S3, I'd find it more unbelievable if Mariner _was_ 100 percent okay. That comment to Random in ep 2 definitely shows that she's been let down by people she trusted before and that takes forever to get over.
Take that first down away. People have backslides and dont just have one momment where everything is fixed.
"greatest crimes in Ferengi society", we need to assume that all crimes are treated gravely on Ferenginar, with the expectation that you will bribe your way out.
So happy to find out the writers are fans of Garth Marenghi's Darkplace.
I thought the exact same. Hope it creates some exposure for the show.
"Quark's Federation Bar & Grill" is especially intended to evoke the "Star Trek Experience" at the Las Vegas Hilton. I remember the Enterprise D model and the Voyager model there. I own a bottle of "Romulan Ale" that I got as a souvenir from my visit there. The casino in that area was Star Trek-themed, and the "ride" that you went on there transported you to the Enterprise-D bridge for an adventure. It was better than anything Disney's done before or since. The transporter effect itself was pure magic.
Yes! The transporter effect was unexpected and awesome
As I recall, you walked into what looked like a standard room where you would queue up to enter a Las Vegas platform theater ride, the lights went out, and when the lights came on you were on an Enterprise-D transporter pad. It was amazing!
"You don't have to throw up in my mouth twice!" Epic line!
Really hope the Retro includes episodes of the original animated series! So many great ones to choose from.
Quark's Federation Experience is almost certainly a shout-out to the now defunct Star Trek: The Experience in Las Vegas. My wife and I got to go back when it was at its prime, and I even remember one of the stand-out staff characters being a Ferengi.
9:14 So we're not gonna talk about Rutherford just blurting out _"I love you too"_ being the bit where things got too real for them? We're just ignoring that? Wokay. 😁
Rutherford and Tendi are absolutely going to explore those feelings… eventually.
mariner's story is about a unstated trigger. anyone with PSTD would tell you that no matter how good you've been doing as you are being forced to confront your past you'll sprial out. she's trying to protect her self
i think they are setting up for a reveal. every character has had a secret or weird past they are escaping from.
Rutherford was another person! Tendi was an asasin, Boimler was something about his hair that hasn't been revealed yet, this is Marinors story of feeling safe enough to get back into her career. Maybe it would make sense to the non-traumatized if that explanation was up front, but most mental health disabilities are invisable @@mikcnmvedmsfonoteka
I may be one of the few fans who loves the DS9 Ferengi episodes, so this episode of Lower Decks was an absolute treat for me to watch!
Not just you! I had to watch “Profit and Lace” twice before I accepted it as a bad episode!
But for me, that’s the very rare miss for Ferengi content. I only wish we could have acknowledged Nog in some way, even if only in a picture on the wall or a mention in passing to Freeman.
As others have noted, I suspect Mariner may have a few more episodes like this so in the final episode she can have a complete change of heart.
Rom & Leeta’s continuing story was everything I didn’t know I wanted. It was not only fun but actually felt like a relief to see them so happy & doing so well.
My favorite blink and you'll miss it touch was Quimp, who was established to be a professional actor in "Envoys," can be heard as the Ferengi TV narrator.
Its just not easy for people to change even when they realize are engaging in self-destructive behaviour she needs more than just Ransom's support to address lifelong bad habits.
I cannot be the only person who heard Jeffrey Combs as Brunt, FCA giving the promo for the Poc & Dar Cop Landlords.
I will never forget Quark saying "there is no word for crisp on Ferenginar"!
20:31 And also, you get how they've managed to rule all these years! They've become this effective double team, no doubt thanks to Ishka's tutoring! And that's great!
You missed something in cetacean ops. "They even have the red outfits that randomly caught fire" reference to old trek always killing red shirts. And the restaurant was call back to the star trek experience in vegas.
This might also have been a continuation of a joke from the SNW crossover about TOS-era tricorders catching fire. Maybe stuff from that time period was known to just randomly burst into flame?
Honestly, I was just so excited to see (and hear) Rom again. He's one of my favorite characters from DS9. I was grinning like a fool during the whole episode.
Mariner's behavior is not a step backwards, knowing that she is self sabotaging is one thing. Knowing why she is self sabotaging and how to stop it are two different steps. We should be getting something more revealing than a Betazoid wedding when it comes why Mariner self sabotages When Mariner say to Ransom "you would not understand" OOh boy I know that feeling, I have said that line. I have self sabotaging behavior and I struggle with not falling back into that behavior pattern when I feel frustrated or discomfort of any kind, cause the behavior bring me a form of comfort.
New head cannon, the adventures of the Enterprise-D were made into a holo series, and the TNG theme is the theme for each episode.
This gave me exactly what i wanted out the Tendi Rut ship, its not exactly conventional, but they show their affection in their own weird way, and i wouldn't have it any other way. Also gonna have to contest that down, backsliding happens and for some one like Mariner this is normal for her development.
I think Rutherford clearly has it pretty bad for her, and I hope for his sake those eventually get discussed. But... yeah, otherwise, I agree. There's no reason their relationship has to look like a standard romance. Just as long as they're happy.
There's a term I learned this week: *queerplatonic relationship.* I think it describes. _Tenderford_ perfectly.
@@GSBarlev I'll have to read up on that... but I'm a little leery to put labels on things so quickly.
Down for no T'Lyn.
But much like Shaxs last week, I do LOVE how the Bridge Crew has been developed. Back in the first episode they were very stereotypical. Freeman was strict and by-the-books, Ransom was a bit of a ladies man and also pretty strict, Shaxs just wanted to fight all the time. Now Freeman seems more willing to go against the standard operating procedure. Ransom is friendly towards the lower deckers and genuinely wants to see them succeed. Shaxs gained a softer, gentler side. It's great how they went from an almost antagonistic, smug group, and now they're great characters in their own right.
My suspicion is that T'Lyn is seeking diagnosis and treatment for her telepathic issues last week, possibly from T'Ana.
T’Ana OTOH appears to be very much unhinged and feral 😂
But I’m sure she’ll get her moment to truly shine too
First down, mariner did have growth, this was a relapse where she needs to apply her redefined self to her rank.
The way I read Mariner's arc is that, essentially, she's afraid of change. She's been doing the whole self-sabotaging permanent-ensign because she's comfortable as an ensign but still doesn't know what she really wants in life. Now that Ransom has forced her to stop the self-sabotaging stuff and confirmed he has no plans to demote her, she's been forced out of her comfort zone and is not coping well with it.
I'm calling this "Relapse Mariner" because it seems to me she's sort of relapsing over and over. Every time she tries to push herself to grow a little bit, it seems there's some trigger that pushes her to go extra hard on herself. It reminds me of friends who struggle with self harm, and I have a feeling that inner turmoil her friend pointed her towards at the end when he's straight up calling her out - is coming to a head and we're gonna go deep. Which fuels my fan theory: T'Lyn is gonna mind meld with Mariner to help her work it out and we'll get a mindscape Mariner episode like they did with Rutherford.
Ooh, that would be neat! Especially since Mariner also seems lost as to what's going on with her.
So, "Quark's Federation Experience" is a take on the Las Vegas Hilton's former "Star Trek:The Experience"; that existed from 1998-2008. There was a "Quark's Bar" restaurant, that served food & drinks. I went in 2004 & 2006, and ❤ it. They had (2) rides/attractions. One of them "beamed" you from the hotel to the Enterprise-D, and the other was a Borg 4D experience. I wish someone would bring it back into existence.
Yup. The Federation Experience was a total nod to the Star Trek Experience.
The Ent -D and Voyager hung in the exact same way above the entrance.
The music.
The themed actors.
I should know … I was married there!
just so you know, sean, the entirety of that quarks federation experience was a whole ass reference to the star trek experience las vegas when they basically turned the hilton las vegas into the ds9 promenade and quarks bar, it was really cool to have seen in person, just wish it lasted longer, really hope the bring it back some day
You broke me Sean with that Moopsy. I had to pause because I laughed so hard I had a coughing fit. Well played sir, well played indeed! And if you do get to be a Manager of Quark's Federation Experience can I be the head bartender? A couple of ideas, of course the drinks are watered down, you don't make the correct drink unless they pay extra, a charge for clean glasses, a charge to table delivery, a charge....see Sean I got ideas!
The writers missed a huge chance of poking fun at one of Trek's longest running gags. While on Ferenginar, Mariner and Quint should have passed a huge Fashion store, with Quint reminiscing how the owner family became obscene rich in the time after first contact with the Federation ("the Last Outpost"), because the Federation was so eager to establish peaceful contact with the menacing and fierce Ferengi, that as a sign of goodwill their Second Contact Starship Captain signed some treaty arrangements and got ripped off immediatly. Especially harsh was the textil treaty, that guaranteed the Ferengi to equip the Federation with uniforms, with supplements and footnotes, making sure the Federation would have to order a new uniform fashion collection every five years for the next 500 years. That's why uniforms change so often in Starfleet and this scam is so embarassing for Starfleet that they keep it top secret - until Mariner finds out, of course.
Brilliant!
That would make for an excellent in world explanation for all the different uniform styles 😮
Sean....buddy HOW DID YOU NOT UP "the horniest least committed crew in Starfleet" 😂😂😂
Being a victim of self-sabotage constantly, I can tell you this is a great character arc. It feels realistic and I feel seen.
The only thing I think you missed was the joke about the size of the male lingerie, cuz I'm pretty sure that that's a reference to the fact that Roddenberry wanted the Ferangi to be short but absolutely "massively endowed" and he originally wanted that to come up when they were introduced in TNG. But got talked down/over ruled about it. But it was funny to me that they had such large male lingerie as a call back to that.
my favorite bit in this episode was the world's most reasonable and conciliatory biker gang leader that Mariner decided to pick a fight with. "Oh I'm so sorry, I've been a right fool, and of course I will reimburse you for --" *mariner punches him*
I disagree about Mariner. I thought it was more of she had never gotten this far into being a lieutenant Junior grade without some sort of drama and she doesn't know how to function without that level of drama in her life when everything's going fine.
Yeah, I’ve made the observation in some recent Star Trek livestreams that Mariner is the kind of person who expects trauma and betrayal to happen to her. When things are going well, she waits for that other shoe to drop, and then she gets impatient when it doesn’t. So then she causes it to happen because she doesn’t believe she can be happy.
@@ffreed Yeah, but here's the big question: *what the hell made her that way?*
@@Brasswatchman The Dominion War is my guess.
@@ffreed Mine too. But why doesn't she seem to get that? Something's going on there...
@@Brasswatchman
Given context clues, she likely grew up on the Enterprise, with all the craziness that implies, then went to Starfleet Academy and graduated just in time to serve on the front lines of The Dominion War.
So yeah, plenty of trauma to go around there.
This is my favorite episode of the season. I had so much fun all the way through, even though I usually don't like awkwardness as a plot line. What would have been a great alternative would have been Teni and Rutherford in line for the Honeymoon suite and saying, "Huh. Do you think we're actually attracted to each other?"
"I think so."
"Neat. That'll make this mission so much easier!"
"I know! We'll be able to sample all the attractions without having to worry about keeping up the act!"
I continue to think Ransom is turning into the best XO in the fleet. It seems like a lot of what happened was planned by him to get his officers to expand their experience and discover things about themselves.
I do think that Rutherford x Tendi will eventually happen (probably series finale or something), but I am glad they didn’t end up pulling the trigger just yet. Still, they definitely hinted that, despite both of their protests and insistences, they both do find the other extremely attractive in a romantic sense. Sure, some of it probably was awkwardness from being forced to play a romantic role with your best friend, but I’m pretty sure some of it was genuine romantic tension. Just look at the “Gorgeous Green Eyes” scene or when they both saw the other in formal evening wear.
I should note that Quark's Federation Experience Bar and Grill is very likely a reference to Star Trek: The Experience which was an attraction at the Las Vegas Hilton from the late '90s through to 2008, I would definitely up that.
The security guard not only had the blue whip, he had the Ferengi tattoo and the Ferengi outfit from TNG
I loved visiting Ferrenganar. Need more episodes like this. But that restaurant they were at... it's clearly a shout out to the Star Trek Experience in Las Vegas from the early 2000s. That gets an up from me. I loved that place as a kid.
I loved seeing the ships hung exactly as they were in the Star Trek Experience in Las Vegas. It was a great little touch.
Quark’s Federation Experience was a lot like Star Trek The Experience in Las Vegas, including the giant ships hanging from the ceiling. Anyone go there back in the day?
One of the other comments has 62 replies about Star Trek The Experience and a good list of the trekkie product names and things you could do. I was there in its early days and it was great.
Absolutely missed that Quark’s Federation Experience is almost a copy of Quark’s at the Star Trek Experience that was in the Las Vegas Hilton. (I spent way too much time there)
I like it when they show Capt Freemon and the bridge crew as competent Star Fleet officers
T'Lyn was not in this episode, but I can't stop thinking of Daria when T'Lyn talks.
I am glad that Rom and Leeta were in it, but T'Lyn wasn't in it
“When T’lyn isnt on the screen, everyone should be saying ‘where’s T’Lyn?’”
TBH, while I enjoy T'Lyn, I didn't miss her in this episode. There was a lot going on with the four plots we had athat I'm glad they left her out of this rather than shoehorn her into the plot.
It might have been funny to see how she reacted to seeing television, tho
Besides, sending a Vulcan on this kind of mission to a planet like Ferenginar seems a bit illogical ;)
Seems like the show is suggesting that the unknown ship is getting into the other ship's systems because it's an inside job. Someone is convincing a crew member to give them the passwords. If you think back to the episode before last with the Orions, the one guy smirked as the other two walked off. It was weird and had no connection to anything. Now we know why he smirked. He was the stooge who gave away the codes.
Liked the episode.. Been waiting for it all season. Its always good when we get more of the family back.
That said I was profoundly disappointed that they did not give us at the very least an animated non speaking Nog or a mention by rom of how proud he is of his recently promoted starfleet son. A simple line of dialogue would have went so far and cost nothing more.
EDIT:
Ive heard complaints that it would have been too soon to promote Nog to captain by this time period but I think that after the massive manpower loss after the dominion war, the heros of the war would definitely been fast tracked in order to rebuild the fleet.
If it would be too soon for Captain Nog, It would have been too soon to see that many clothed Ferengi out in public. Eventually yes, Just not yet. Change takes time.
Also, you just knew that Leeta was going to become the brains of the operation. Still exploiting the lessons learned at Quarks dabo wheel.
Boimler's scream after Ransome tells him to go limp at the end at security coming to get him was my Latinum Up! I laughed so hard.
I think the Ferengi would be good members of the federation as they could help with societies that still use currancy
@martinsmarkss1857 absolutely they would be good for the Federation in general as they would be able to help the economy and would help the Federation with diplomatic events