Ups & Downs From Star Trek: Lower Decks 4.9 - The Inner Fight
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ต.ค. 2023
- It's the penultimate episode of this Lower Decks season! We're not ready to say goodbye. Retro Star Trek Ups & Downs anyone?
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I find the Mariner cycle to be quite important actually. She is behaving the way someone who is suffering from mental illness often does. Pulling out, feeling safe, then nosediving even worse than before. She attributes it to a specific trauma but the metaphor is something a lot of us can relate to. It may seem "out of character" and that is why so many people have a hard time relating to or feeling sympathy for those who struggle with mental illness. The question "why are you acting this way you were doing so well..." is something that just hurts sometimes. Growth is not linear if someone is suffering from a mental illness, in this case they are using acute trauma as a metaphor for things like bipolar II, or even substance use disorder. IMO
👏
I fully agree
The difference between people who struggle and sometimes fail and don't just "get better" and characters who have an arc.
Audiences expect charcaters to have growth and it goes in one direction because the messy reality is less satisfying.
@@101Mant yes but I like the subversion of that expectation. Lower Decks subverts everything else so why not!
I agree. I can totally see why Mariner can't handle the promotion. She was traumatized, and we know that Star Fleet absolutely SUCKS at mental health for its officers.
Trellium down of the season goes to Seán himself for misunderstanding Mariner's arc and development episode after episode, despite the comment sections on the Ups and Downs videos always doing a magnificent job explaining how her psychological journey is very true to life and accurately depicted :)
I mean, you guys are all idiots lol
Strong agree.
It's exactly why people with real mental injuries find it so hard to open up and be vulnerable.
Agreed. He (or the writers) have been unobservant and largely insufferable for most of this season.
To be fair, not reading the comments is often healthiest if a content creator.
Sorry but Mariner's connection to Sito Jaxa was so unexpected and worked for me. And of course Mariner knowing Locarno is why Captain Freeman didn't want her on that mission.
Sean really seems to want there to be this magical "the trauma's all gone" moment for Mariner. All of her actions in this arc make sense for someone who is suffereing from ptsd/trauma/mental illness. Recovery and growth isn't linear and it doesn't just magically go away.
Exactly. Just because TNG would just magic away such issues at the end of an episode doesn't mean that needs to happen here.
Stuff like this stakes a lot of time. Regressions and the road is not straight at all.
I suffered a pretty profound stroke in my mid thirties on the language center of my brain. It has been years now, and that path is not linear and to still comes up.
The other day I couldn't type in my phone number to get costumer service. I had to center myself, and struggle. At the end the person tried to give me an out asking if "Oh so it is a new phone number for you?"
I replied, "No, I had a stroke, numbers are always harder than words."
If my life was a TV show with a commenter just saying "ITS BEEN SEASONS WE KNOW YOU HAD A STROKE WHY IS THIS STILL HARD?!"
So much this - Seán's inability to understand basic psychology is becomming grating.
@thomasnhr1519 true but isn't the issue the suddenness of the mentioning of her connection to Jaxa?
@@swfcocs1 Meh. I don't see a problem with it. Mariner as a character obviously has a lot of problems opening up about her past. She's bound to be holding on to all kinds of surprises.
You waste 5 minutes to talk about your dislike that Mariner (who we know is older than her peers, seeing as she served on DS9 alongside Worf and went to the academy with a friend who has already been promoted to captain) knew Sito and claim that that's the reason she has been acting the way she has, and then don't even mention the ACTUAL reason she is the way she is?
She doesn't act out because of Sito, she acts out because she has PTSD from the dominion war and hates how Starfleet has become more militaristic over the years. Sito is not important because she died, but because she was killed by Cardassians on some sabotage mission.
5 minutes for that rant but no mention of her PTSD? that's a DOWN from me.
This channel has been really ablist about PTSD
It's like they didn't even listen to Mariner's monologue. The fact that she is at a point where she can self-critically examine her past trauma and talk to a stranger about it is already showing huge character growth. Criticism like Sean's is exactly why people struggling with mental injuries are so afraid to really be vulnerable and talk about them.
honestly the whole framing in Trekculture's take feels a LOT of internalized ablism- we can be our harshist critics. It's hard to be reminded how nonlinear healing from PTSD is. For me and friends' who have done decades of work processing trauma, you start to feel worse as you start to heal.
Starfleet is full of ineffective therapists back to TOS. It's makes sense that she could find that with a klingon.@@QuintusAntonious
Agreed, huge down. He is so completely caught up in thinking and ranting about how Mariner should just magically be better that he's ignoring all the real story about PTSD and trauma. It's absolutely awful, and it's souring me on the whole channel.
Ha. Clocking in at 29 minutes, half the vid is ranting. Where are the editors 😂
SITO is NOT a DOWN. SHE IS NOT A DOWN!!!! She's not a name drop. It add's so much to both the stories.. and connects the lower decks episode. Let this therapy session matter. Grrrr
If they don't do anything else with that information going forward, then it's a fanservice namedrop. If they do manage to actually work it into the story for the next episode or two, then it it's just poorly planned writing due to a lack of sufficient setup or foreshadowing this season. Sito could've easily been mentioned during any of the other 'low-morale Mariner' moments this season, but it instead feels like it's come out of nowhere in the very same episode that Locarno is also brought back into the modern Star Trek era - either of which, is huge unto themselves - but both in same episode without any 'apparent' foreshadowing this season... let's just say it makes me nervous that the writer may try to bite off more than they can chew in trying to cram all this into 2 (maybe 3?) episodes.
TBF though, Sean has been saying all along that he's willing to rescind any downs from his anti 'Mariner Regression' stance if it's simply a case of "Yes, the writers will actually address this, they just haven't yet"
he's right, tho... if Mariner knew Sito, and both Mariner AND Sito knew Locarno, with Locarno being in his mid 40's, then Mariner is also around that age.... and so is Boimler, and Tendi and Rutherford aren't much far behind.
granted, Mariner could have been a freshman when the others were seniors nearly graduates... but the difference would be negligible especially knowing Locarno, Wesley, Riker, Seven, and everyone else mentioned AND their time references.... so if Nick is 40+, Mariner is a late 30, pushing 40.
They up every dumb namedrop and every shallow fanservice-y reference but end up downing one of the few that was actually relevant to the story.
mariner was always older than the other three cause she served on several ships and kept getting demoted because of what happened to Sito. The other three are at the right age to be Ensigns Mariner should prly be a commander by now. @@bcn1gh7h4wk
@@bcn1gh7h4wk However, it is possible that Mariner (both of her parents being in Star Fleet) knew Locarno, Wesley, and Sito while she was still in High School. Plus, Locarno was kicked out of the Academy, whereas Sito was sent back a year, which could easily mean that Mariner knew Sito when Sito was a Senior and Mariner was a Freshman. And who knows how long Star Fleet Academy actually is. Four years? I'd actually suspect that it was somewhat longer, say maybe six years.
I think this actually was planned from day one. Mariner has always been hinted to be about the same age as Wesley Crusher. She was on DS9 concurrent with the events of the show and therefore the Dominion War. They set up her fear of losing friends and attachment issues early. We've seen and been told that she has been promoted and demoted a number of times. It makes sense that during the war, when faced with potentially ordering her friends to their deaths, she fell into this defensive habit of getting herself demoted before she's forced to make a tough call. But now that demotion is essentially off the table, she is fully spinning out and taking on extra risks to avoid making those kinds of choices. If she takes all of the risks, all of the time she won't have to lose any more friends. Sito is important because she's clearly the first close friend to have died in the line of duty. But Mariner being around for the war means she was far from the last. That she was involved with the Dominion War has been hinted at for a long time as the thing that sets her apart from her younger friends who were not.
Perfect
I second that, perfect.
I love this comment. Really well said
100% CORRECT…Sean, how have you missed this?!
Yes. I was thinking this (well, some of it) while Sean was saying why he didn't like it. Like you said, if Mariner takes on all the risks, then her friends (whom she loves deeply and wouldn't hesitate to give her life for) stay safe.
The more we learn about Mariner, the more absolutely tragic her character becomes. She wanted to be in Star Fleet more than anything; to explore strange, new worlds; to seek out new life and new civilizations. In short, young Mariner was the embodiment of the entire ideal encapsulated by Star Trek (in the meta sense). Then, the façade began to crumble. First, it was Nick Locarno and his wrecklesness. The Sito, who has done her damnedest to earn back the respect of Star Fleet (as personified by Picard), succeeds, but only to be killed immediately after. Then, the events of DS9 (war after war). Undoubtedly, Mariner saw other friends ordered to their deaths. Mariner may have had to order some enlisted personnel and ensigns to their demise during the war, but she can't bring herself to talk about it, so her friends don't know. Mariner has likely suffered such an amount of trauma that she has no business being anything other than reduced to a "human" in name only.
Yet, she carries on. Maybe she has a drive to protect her younger compatriots to spare them from a fate that she witnessed (and pethaps even ordered) countless times. Her drive to protect her friends is stronger than the clear PTSD she has. She might know that she is walking through the deepest reaches of Hell, but she'll be damned if she lets her friends suffer what she did.
I just hope that Sean and the rest of the TrekCulture crew can take the time to read the comments from SO many of their viewers about how trauma and PTSD really work for real people, and how so many of us have found the depiction of Mariner's experiences and reactions to them to be very deeply realistic.
I do hope they have a comment reader or moderator on staff as well. They don't need to acknowledge every single comment, but take information from that. Though haven't they now and again said something like "Some of you had mentioned."?
I doubt it. They strike me as an "upload and move on" type of outfit. Sean's made some outrageous comments lately based on obvious errors on his part, and ... crickets.
They won't. This has been pointed out before a few weeks back on how his huffing is actually offensive to people who have suffered from PTSD. So what does he do.... double down on it.
@@CantankerousDavethey do talk about the comments a fair bit on the podcast. They do care - they just don't get it, at least not yet.
It definitely seems like they don't have a perspective on how PTSD affects someone. As someone with CPTSD, trauma isn't a one and done thing, it lingers in your mind and influence your thoughts and actions even if you don't realise it. She wants to be an ensign forever because she hasn't been able to move on from when she was an ensign and learned that Sito died. The part where she says "I don't want to order my friends to their deaths" screams of her mind trying to rationalise her trauma.
Seán, you say that if Mariner knew Sito then she must have known Locarno. She did know him. She says, "Nick, what are you doing here?"
And the only way she could know them both AND have Sito graduate before her is if she was a first-year cadet during the TNG ep The First Duty in which both characters were introduced.
I was thinking the same. The fact that she knows Nick as the cliffhanger of the 2 parter shows that there’s more to come here. And it shows that all the disappearing ships are essentially related to Mariner and her issues all season. It’s less obvious than it could have been, but I’m here for it, assuming the finale pays off.
He gives downs because he didn't pay attention all the time. It's so annoying.
@@jimmyryan5880 I've noticed that too, but I can't find much fault with it. They have to shoot the Ups & Downs very soon after the episode is released in order to get it into editing so that it can be released same/next day for viewers. I'd be surprised if they do anything more than watch the episode once to absorb the plot, then watch it again pausing every 10 seconds to jot down easter eggs. Then they shoot. That's not a lot of time to let things peculate, or to notice finely crafted details. It's a testament to how well Shawn and the crew know Star Trek that they see as much as they see immediately on first viewing.
It bothers me a bit more that Shawn will keep beating a dead horse week after week (like the bit about Mariner's older age or severe long term PTSD not having been hinted at, when they have been hinted at every few episodes since the first season) even as the comment's section points out to him that he's completely wrong and just doesn't understand what's happening... but as others have pointed out, he probably doesn't read the comment's section. You can't read the comment's section as a content creator and stay sane.
But geez. I pointed out in the comments for the Season 1 Episode 5 (and 9) Ups & Downs how they were setting up a PTSD healing arc for Mariner. And I'm pretty sure I (and others) pointed out in Episode 1 Season 1 comments that Mariner had to be at a very minimum 10 years older than the other 3, or her claim to have served on 5 ships didn't make sense. I'm not sure how Shawn and the rest of the Trekculture crew missed all of that. Maybe a full series rewatch is in order for all of them:). None of this came out of nowhere.
@@jasonwalker9471you’ve absolutely nailed it
Your're really off the mark on this episode. The whole Mariner "character regression" makes a whole lot of sense. The promotion is a point of unrealised trauma that she has not dealt with. She has had good steps forward but not come to a true resolution. She has abandonments issues do to her friends being promoted, she has mixed views on Star Fleet do to her friend being killed then an entire war happens in her early years in it. She joined Star Fleet to explore, discover and help not to to fight and send others off to die. People have been speculating she is older than the others and that she served during the dominion war. Nit picking her timeline is just uncalled for. Overall your frustration over Mariner is off the mark and you don't understand her or how people process things.
an abolustely misunderstanding of dissociation and PTSD. So ablist they don't even realize it
I personally really like the storyline for the same reason the Sean doesn't like it, but I can see where he's coming from. It's less narratively satisfying seeing a character backslide and not progress linearly, so I get the frustration. Heck, in real life it's frustrating watching people backslide. But in stories, as much as I can like a well written linear narrative as much as the next person, seeing a fictional character acting like a real human, including the pitfalls, backsliding, and trauma responses, is, for me personally, kinda refreshing. Because in real life, this is how (some not all) trauma survivors respond. So I like that.
@@catherineelmore2004 remember, it’s a show about the aftermath of TNG episodes. The California class ships have to clean up after the card and deal with the ramifications of TNG episodes.
And honestly, feeling like people should respond to trauma in a linear way is exactly why we need representation for characters responding to trauma like Mariner- so that people realize oh, this is a thing that happens. Recognition, normalization- these things are necessary toward people who have similar issues in the real world realizing they are valid and getting help.
@@catherineelmore2004 having a realistic relationship with trauma is some thing that LD is doing incredibly well
Nog was 21 when he became an ensign. Kim was 22 at the start of Voyager. Wesley was 19 when he became an ensign. The actress who played Sito was 22 when they made the episode. And Mariner said Sito graduated before her. Sito was killed in 2370. Lower Decks season 1 started in 2380. So Mariner was probably between 20 - 22 in 2370 and between 30 - 32 when Lower Decks started. She's not that old.
and considering we know she was on DS9 at the same time as worf, is friends with Riker, and graduated the same year as someone who has already become a captain, it's not even surprising.
Plus, all that rank and ship bouncing she has done isn't something you just do in 2 years or so
@@Olochguall great points. She is clearly older than the others.
@@danriverso1053 Not necessarily. Starfleet Academy is more like a University in that anyone can apply at any time. Boimler, for example, could be the same age as Mariner, but he just enlisted at a later time.
She is definitely more experienced than the rest of the main cast, but that does not necessitate an older age.
It's also not unexpected for people to graduate younger as Chekov was 17 when he graduated the Academy.
It also confirms that Locarno and Paris are different people. This has SMASHED so many fan theories
I was really hoping for a joke about how they look alike!
@@zcolescottThere’s still episode 10… 😂
I was suprised that Boimler - Paris fanboy - made no mention of the likeness!
We still haven’t seen them in the same room. I’m not yet convinced.
Well the fact that they probably decided to make paris a different character because they didn't want to pay royalties to the writers who created Locarno... 30 years on now we use the character. Hopefully Locarno shows up every 4th episode from here on out.
Sean, it has to be Sito because if their tracking Locarto, Freeman won't want to trigger Beckett. Hence the side mission. This shows Freeman is an even better mom then the conference room scene demonstrated.
But why, exactly, does it have to be Sito? It's that type of justification that people were saying that Seven of Nine was going to appear in the first season of Prodigy, simply because the kids had developed a mentorship with Hologram Janeway and, later, Admiral Janeway.
If we want to invoke logic into the scene, I would have to give a down to the fact that Freeman didn't relieve Mariner of active duty when it was apparent she was trying to "get herself killed." Of course, had she done so, there would have been no story; however if Mariner's issues are so extreme that the captain is concerned and even the idea of sending her to the ship's counsellor is deemed insufficient, the worst place for Mariner is on active duty.
I have had similar struggles in the past, though nowhere to such an extreme, but I know from personal experience that you're not completely rational in that frame of mind, and sometimes you need something like being relieved of duty to accept that you've messed up and take the steps necessary to heal.
Giving a down for Ensign Sito and Mariner's tie in to the original Lower Decks episode is crazy to me. Especially since Nick got the latinum up. The hypocrisy...
You keep using that word . . .
just opinion. thanks for yours too .
I wouldn’t call it hypocrisy but I otherwise agree with you
I bet that mentioning Sito here will play some importance in the next episode too; and wasn't just thrown in like Sean seems to think it was. A mistake he has made in critiques opf episodes of Lower Decks several times before.
@@jasontoddman7265 Same. With Sito apparently MIA or KIA ... Would be an interesting hook if Nick (and/or other Squad Members, including the "forgotten" one) get Mariner to take part in their plans to maybe "Rescue(?) Sito or maybe "avenge" her. Break her out of a Fortress/Strong Hold or something... Thinking some kind of "DS9: Blood Oath" (2x19) type Mission.
Have to disagree about Beckett.
The trauma of that lost and the grief, AND then maybe making new connections with people just to have them slaughtered in the Dominion War…
That will surely short circuit her moving past Ensign
Sean always seems to think maturity is linear--once you stop acting a certain way once you never act that way again. It's not like that at all. Mariner has deeply habituated coping behavior stemming from extreme trauma. She's not going to just snap out of it and be "normal" because she met some friends, learned some lessons, and got a promotion. Healing takes time and "growth" takes intentional long term sustained effort. People backslide, it's normal and Lower Decks in its humorous over the top way is actually portraying it pretty well.
Is it possible to give a comment a Dilithium Up? Aw, who cares, I'm doing it anyway. From episode ONE it was evident that Beckett Mariner is a very troubled young woman in a way that is hard to immediately pin down to specific reasons, even for herself. When the Klingon points out that she's at war with herself, I think that's the first time she actually tries to look back to where it all started.
Also, point of fact, Sito and Mariner don't have to be the same age for them to have been friends at the Academy.
Also also, her commanding attitude when she starts trying to get everyone together honestly makes me think that her old dream of making Captain isn't as far fetched as it might have been.
100%. Trauma makes growth difficult especially if there is no catharsis. Here it seems Mariner may have finally gotten that catharsis. Her rebellion, her antics, her apparent growth and then slipping back into old habits - it is all something that major trauma can create in people. I appreciate that we finally see is at the root of Mariner's trauma - the thing that hurt her and stifled her growth. The real grief she still deals with.
@@Anduril74871 good point about age, Sito could have been in her senior year of the academy when Mariner was a freshmen. Like Picard said to Wesley about having a stigma hanging over him while he is at the academy the same would have been true of Sito. I would imagine the Academy making sure the three remaining members of a Nova Squad lived in separate dorms and never had any of the same classes so Sito would have been very much alone by her senior year leading into a friendship / mentorship like relationship with Mariner who saw Sito as someone who made a mistake but refused to give up gets assigned to the flagship and then gets killed on black ops mission she never thought she would be on. Mariner not only lost a friend but a mentor which in turn caused her to spiral into a self destructive way of life.
I thought that they were actually making the Dominion War more of the reason for Mariner not wanting command, because she didn't want to send her crew to the horrors of war. The trauma of that, combined with the Sito Jaxa trauma, sealed her desire to avoid command.
I actually would have latinum upped the reference to Sito Jaxa and Mariner's story. It speaks to how a "minor character" (from a canon perspective) can have a massive and lasting impact on the people around them, and it's also a very real and very human thing to hold on to the pain of losing somebody like that especially in the horrible way the Sito was killed. It makes sense that something so painful, particularly leading up the the trauma of the Dominion War, would mold Mariner into being how she is. Also, as others have mentioned more eloquently than myself, the cycle of healing and spiraling is a fairly common thing in mental health and recovery from trauma.
The "bounty hunter ship" is clearly Prince Billups' personal yacht with some edgy paint do. And the suite was probably his space jousting armor.
I mean, that outfit is exactly what you'd expect someone in a High Fantasy setting to wear when going through their "angsty" phase.
the suit looks too scifi for the renfair types. But that can just be done with a replicator
That was my thought!
Cosplaying is literally in his blood.
Well I'm making that my head canon now, lol, thanks
Lots of people have been very eloquently expressing where I think you got the Sito stuff way wrong... but a small thing, Mariner didn't "cause" the scientist in the cold open to lose his eyes through her reckless action. She didn't ignore a safer plan for her reckless one, she just very recklessly snapped into action. Her plan pretty much worked to boot. Yeah a Moopsy 2 got into the base on her back, but at the end of the day that scientist immediately thought they would all die when the shield went down, they didn't even have time to think of a safer plan, and the reality is if she didn't act lots more people would have gotten hurt / died. The point of the scene wasn't to say she was being dangerously reckless and getting people hurt. She was being dangerously reckless in her efforts to find a solution. Feels like you were exaggerating to point. Just wanted to get that off my chest.
Really the scientist should have checked to make sure that all the animals were contained and Mariner was in no ways contaminated before he took off his helmet.
thank you for stating what I was thinking
Well, he was a panicky sort. I guess this isn't going to help with that. yet sometimes adversity will provide a path...hmmm...@@claudiadarling9441
And they would have all died as they building and their suits were obviously not enough to stop the creatures.
Also like. This is Star Trek. Just last week Doctor T'Ana regrew an ensign's foot. That scientist is gonna be fine.
You're wrong, she's always fighting Cardassians on the holodeck since Season 1, I think this was the plan for Mariner all along.
Good point, didn't think of that.
And no, it's not just a respectful difference of opinion. It's wrong on both counts. That's not how ptsd works, Mariner isn't going to have one revelation with her mom and be all better, and that's not how story-telling works, Sito being from the literal series title episode is not just a 'name drop'.
The one good thing is that 90% of the comments are people telling Sean that he's wrong about this.
The thing that bothers me about the downs is it's judging the show for not being something else. The writers have decided to take a particular approach to Mariner's character this season, ok TrekCulture may not agree with that approach, but that's what happening. To continually give downs doesn't make any sense - sure downvote if it seems like they're not executing on that approach properly, but they are! It's just not logical to downvote every episode because you don't like the season arc. The approach they're taking is entirely coherent.
Come on, Sean. The road through healing is not linear and not without the traps that make us circle back, re-wound ourselves, and suffer. I have been where Mariner is, split between the necessary experience of moving forward in life and _wanting not to._ I'm kind of in it right now, if I'm honest. The frustration you show Mariner mirrors the frustration my friends once showed me when I wasn't healing the way _they_ expected me to -- and made the wound much, much worse.
You know it’s odd. You had mentioned how sad you were that Ma’ah had apparently met his demise in the season premiere, and then proceeded to not mention him once by name when he made his return.
he was too busy hating mariner and ignoring her trauma.
I don't know why, but I _love_ Ma'ah, and I was thrilled to see he survived. A little disappointed that all he gets is a couple passing references to "the klingon".
I'm very disappointed in how the issue of Ensign Sito being "name dropped" was took precedence over Mariner's personal suffering. She obviously is suffering from so form of mental illness most likely some form of depression and PTSD. Sito was her role model and close friend the died on a secret mission. Sean, why couldn't you see how devasting losing a close friend can be? Also, why didn't you speak about Mariner's response to the Klingon's words about the honor and glory of serving on DS9 during the Dominion War? She told him there was no glory, but it was just a massacre. She is troubled from all she has seen and endured. She is still recovering in silence. She just needs help dealing with her trauma.
This episode hit close to home because my wife has severe PTSD and has tried to commit ***cide six times. People do irrational things when they're suffering. Next time, don't knit pick the plot to the point to where you miss out on what message is trying to be conveyed.
It's interesting that Sean (?) has no trouble seeing PTSD in Shax but cant seem to understand the same thing in Mariner.
@alexanderhunt5473100% shaun just doesnt understand this. And honestly, im happy for him. I wish i didnt.
It’s clear to me Sito was the first of many friends who died. Mariner graduated the academy and got thrown into the teeth of a galactic war. A bucket of trauma makes all the sense in the world.
@@michellegiacalone1079 THIS! To me what the obvious difference between those 2 characters is gender. I am starting to notice Sean has more empathy and enthusiasm, or at least has it more readily with male presenting presenting characters than female presenting? I wonder if this is an unconscious bias he might have.
The First Duty occured 13 years before this episode. For Sito to graduate before Mariner, she'd have to be at least two years older than her. If Sito was at most 20, then Mariner would be at most 18 during the episode. This puts Mariner at 31 at most.
This lines up with Boimler who has been confirmed to be at most 27.
Sito at the end of the first appereance lost all the year credit, so she probably be forced to lost an year
That means the timeline is right for Mariner being the girl in that first season TNG episode. But I feel like if she grew up on the _D_ she wouldn't have talked about Sito getting a spot on it the way she did.
Mariner was also a military brat and a prodigy in her own right. She likely attended the academy at the earliest age possible.
I've been saying for a few seasons now that the math and backstory supported Mariner being in her early 30's, 31-32 is a perfect fit.
We don't know how old Mariner is, just that she's a lot older than we think.
So I have to disagree that Sito feels like it’s just a name drop. I didn’t think so. The way Mariner delivers the tale, you can feel that deep painful sadness and missing her. I actually shed a tear at the telling of it. I honestly thought this was worthy of a platinum up
Looking back at Lower Decks and knowing where the initial inspiration for the show came from the Sito twist makes perfect sense that her death was the trigger for Mariner's reckless path so definitely don't agree with that down.
it's the premise of the show as the aftermath of the original episode. and it was Mariners first loss to the Cardassians before the war
Mariner’s age has always been evident, from all the tidbits and places she was stationed, her knowledge, and who she knows. She has a classic Peter Pan Syndrome, and know we know why. It’s actually deep.
Not to mention at least one of her classmates made captain already.
Peter Pan Syndrome? I never heard of that. Which is weird because I think I have that.
It may have been a while since you guys have seen “extreme risk”. I watched this episode and saw a parallel to how b’elanna was acting to how mariner is currently acting. They were both acting out of character because of past unresolved trauma.
Yes! Glad you caught this.
I thought of that too. Figured I was wrong/overthinking. Glad you came out with this.
Yep. I was gonna refer to this episode but knew someone would have beaten me to it. I thought it was obvious.
I think her DS9 scene and knowledge of the TNG and DS9 crew were the clues. Also her clear advanced knowledge and how capable she is and her knowledge of Klingon society (that she would have learned in the dominion war) all place her at the point in time that her knowing Sito Jaxa is certainly plausible. Having the reason she acts the way she does because she has PTSD and survivor's guilt is 100% plausible. Sorry Sean, I gotta down your down.
I think this episode made Mariner my favorite character on the show. I also think this is planned character development and not just something unfounded or a name drop. I also like how she brings up how the changes to Starfleet away from a science and exploration also feel a little like a betrayal. Her trauma and disappointment manifesting in erratic and self-destructive behavior is something that happens in real life to real people.
The episode also addresses your complaint about the different writers rooms between shows not working together with the similar plot points.
Showing that Beverly has already left Starfleet at this point shows that they compared notes with Terry Matalas during Picard S3.
Sean, you missed the reference to the Dominion War as deep underlying trauma. There is a lot more here than just Sito’s death. Her entire experience with Star Fleet has been a contradiction between the noble goals and the traumatic reality - further complicated by the fact that her parents are successful Star Fleet officers. Beckett is deep here. And LD deserves credit for slowly unrolling this and doing ‘show not tell.’
love the show and i largely agree with most of the observations made, however, i look at Mariner's character regression in much the same way i see a person struggling with addiction. there will be relapses.
Normally I don't read many comments, the connection to Sito and Mariner's emotional rollercoaster and trauma really resonated with me. Seeing Sean's down about her connection to Sito stung a bit so I looked in the comments and OMG you guys are amazing and the best of Trek fans. We get it. I spent half an hour reading comments because everyone is so on point what what they are saying. I'm not going to repeat them, but I totally support them and am proud to be in a group of great people.
LLAP
Track has a really bad history with therapy and trauma. Usually people have to suffer alone in the older series so having a group of characters that all have past stresses means so much just like that Cerritos has to deal with the repercussions of Picard and Kirks decisions. we are seeing the repercussions of another of Picard’s decisions.
@@Sagitarria heck, the dominion war was siskos decision
@@BBQandBourbon23 that’s true. I was thinking about Sito but a lot of high ups.
Show me any organization that has a good record with trauma. I'm a 1st responder and we have great counselors but there is no way repeat no way you are ever going to get rid of it. You have to learn to deal with it in your own way.
I think this is the first Ups and Downs ep that I didn't finish. A down for Sito? This makes absolute sense why Mariner is the way she is. Imagine everything you believed in just lose all meaning when your best friend dies.
I never understand the downs for Mariner's actions. Tne writers have been slowly building a story arc with her and this was a major reveal.
I'm genuinely surprised that Sito's connection to Mariners trauma is a down here. From Mariners side yes, it could have been anyone that died, and it would have still been impactful enough on Mariner that it became a linchpin about which her trauma and conflict over the war and her abandonment issues center around. But by making it Sito, we have a direct connection made to someone the viewers already have a connection with, and who has connections to living characters with narrative potential like Lacardo. As for in universe reasons as to why this is only showing up now, trauma is very difficult to process and steps forward and backward to healing occur constantly, especially when a person isnt directly focusing on processing that trauma.
Plus it allows for some shorthand in the storytelling. Mariner doesn't have to spontaneously exposition for five minutes about why she respected Sito and why her death felt so unfair, because we already know.
It seems they failed to see the underlying topic of trauma in general. Very strange.
I’m amazed how those animated characters are so human.
I’m totally on board with Mariner’s behavior as I felt the same way when I lost a friend many years ago. And it still affects me. That exchange with the Klingon made me cry.
Me too. Which was something I did not think a Mike McMahon production could do.
You've completely missed the mark on ensign Sito tbh, it's clear that she was name dropped because Mariner knows those characters personally as a part of her backstory where she used to be stationed on the Enterprise. She's at the middle of this story and is getting Downed for it
Not only that, with Riker being Freeman's mentor from season 1, Mariner being around that time was definitely planned from the start
One other point: if you recall the piccard episode where Captain Shaw is speaking of his experiences of what happened at Wolf 359 with Picard sitting right there in in front of him that is what PTSD is like when you face your demons.
The speech Mariner gives is her version of that. I'm a former combat medic and I remember every single person I ever say on that battlefield where I was in Iraq and I remember everyone I lost even more. But it didn't stop me from being a paramedic when I came home...... That is how I face my trauma by putting it in the perspective it needed to be put into and that's what Beckett Mariner has to learn to do and that is what she is doing that is not a damned DOWN.
Damn right. One of the things both Picard and LD have done right is portray PTSD as the real, ongoing struggle it is, rather than something you just shake off at the end of an episode. You don't fix mental illness with a shrug and a pithy line; you deal with it forever with work and patience and time. It never just goes away. It's always something you work through. And Mariner's journey here has been a perfect encapsulation of that.
I just rewatched TNG’s “Lower Decks”; at the end, Taurik (the Vulcan engineer) tells Lavelle “The best way to remember her would be to excel in your new position.” It seems Mariner could benefit from that advice, too.
I still feel sorry for poor Ensign Sito. She didn't deserve that.
The Sito story was one of the stories that made a huuuge impression on me.
Do we have to expect that the last episode will be about Sito?
What happened to her? What episode was it?
@@SImrobert2001 _TNG_ "Lower Decks" 🙃
@@nackteHintern Possibly. What's worse is that Sito's end came entirely off-screen. She was only reported K.I.A. And it's only been a little over 10 years in the show's timeline. She could've been alive all this time, hiding and staying ahead of anyone pursuing her. There's no way to truly know without a body.
That kind of feeling, of never truly KNOWING if a loved one is actually gone...is absolute agony. Ask any family of those who are still M.I.A.
It's a torturous kind of hope. And nothing can ever make it go away, except knowing. And they'll never know.
I don't think Sito is just a name drop.
1) it gives a believable origin for Mariner's issues with having authority using a character they've already developed onscreen rather than it just being "random name" that means nothing to us
2) Mariner recognises Nick Locano and he knows her. Mariner mentioning Sito helps tie that in as it places them in the academy together in the same circles. I'll bet you that Sito comes up in the finale as part of why Locano is driving the mutinies. Mariner doesn’t want to be a general sending people to their deaths, Locano wants to overthrow the generals.
agreed it's the core trauma of the entire show and it shows up throughout. People with PTSD don't fit neatly within Sean's view of healing
Plus it's a clever reference to the show's namesake, the episode Lower Decks. We follow the Lower Decker who stayed a Lower Decker because of Lower Decks
@JordanSagitarria I suspect that's a bit harsh on Sean. I'd be interested to here some clarification from Sean but my suspicion is that he was looking for a more traditional character development of "has problem, gets better, stays better". Star Trek has a habit, both recently and historically, of episodes forgetting what has come before due to all the episodes/shows having different writers so I'd understand assuming it was that rather than it being a representation of a complex healing process with two steps forwards and one step back, progression and regression, something triggering something you thought you were over.
@@SkydreamPony good shout! Hadn't thought of that
@@davidnickson7468 it’s the central wound of the entire series.
Mariner's speech hurts so good. I felt every word she used to describe that feeling of loss.
The Mariner character trajectory makes perfect sense, if you've seen it IRL. Unlike most of the people around her, Mariner is a combat veteran; not just the odd defensive battle or planetside brawl sense, but in the "fought in a war" sense. She didn't join to fight though, she was just good at it, and then she fell through the cracks. They've been dropping hints since season one, getting progressively more detailed in them, but if you're not familiar with combat PTSD and stress injuries, it feels off. Combat veterans don't casually drop their backgrounds, especially to new people. I know so many people who got back from Afghanistan and then self destructed because they fell through the cracks, people thought they were fine, and then didn't look deeper when they started acting out. So I have to strongly disagree with your assessment of Mariner's arc.
It doesn't help that the show is suffering from one of the weaknesses of animation, it makes age hard to tell. But I've been certain she's been in her mid 30's for a while, and it makes sense too given how she so quickly becomes the leader in the Beta Shift. She was the oldest and most experienced in their rank level.
sorry, have to disagree with Sean, this is my favourite episode of the series, the sito/locarno stuff may well be fan service but it's done so well that it doesn't diminish the episode at all.
also, the klingon ma'ah is with mariner, I'm surprised they didn't twig on, thought it was obvious from the moment he showed up.
I'm with a lot of people in the comments about Mariner. The whole point of the arc (to me) is showing how you can't just change things internally instantly. It's like breaking up and posting a "I'm thriving after hurt" on social media less than a week after, then showing behavior that shows you have inner turmoil. Just showing a mask of what we want people to see. We don't show clues, we don't want you to see how we're feeling because it makes us feel, and it hurts. Some of us end up hurting ourselves, and others, due to that behavior.
Healing takes time, and it's easier to fall back into what you know the to change. Because healing hurts.
Sito, and Mariner's age, seems to be more of a connection for those of us who have gone through the above to say "this eppisode, and Mariner's arc, are real to the world you love (ST) and your feelings/experiences are valid to relate to said world". And yes, this type of arc isn't a "Roddenberry" vision for ST, but it's realistic to someone who has suffered extream loss or trama. I know, becuse I've been through both. So, to me personally, this arc speeks to me.
I personally LOVE the portrayal of Mariners undiagnosed depression, especially the constant ‘ok one moment, unstable the next…’ nature of the condition…
I’ve had friends do this; they been ok one moment and then ‘go off the rails’ the next and brush off attempts to help and even lash out at me for little/no reason…
What I cannot fathom is WHY every one of her former COs kept demoting/punishing her rather than looking at MH as a probable cause… they must have had records of her war service!? Does starfleet not include a MH check as part of their annual physicals!?
This episode of Lower Decks was one of the best, but this episode of Ups & Downs missed HARD. As much as TrekCulture researches Trek lore, it's jarring that they didn't see the Sito connection coming. The showrunners straight up said the TNG episode "Lower Decks" inspired this show, so it's actually surprising to me that there haven't been *more* callbacks to it. I won't call them "idiots" and say they should've seen it coming from a long way a way, but the "breadcrumbs" were always there - they're just easily dismissed without context. It feels obvious that no one on the staff involved with Ups & Downs knows anyone struggling with PTSD. It IS painful to watch someone who is recovering randomly revert back to their old ways suddenly and unexpectedly, but it's a thing that happens. How Mariner is being portrayed is textbook, and deserves way more respect than Sean & crew is giving it/her.
I was hoping to see Sean make corrections to his previous take in this one but from the comments, I see he’s decided to double down on that instead.
That’s a damn shame because he had all the compassion in the word for M’Benga, a guy who may or may not have killed a man in cold blood due to his PTSD when the person responsible would not get out his face about it, so I thought he’d have more compassion here.
Black women never get a break, IRL or in fiction 😔
Unsubbing until this channel can learn to do better on this.
@KariIzumi1 "Unsubbing until this channel can learn to do better on this"
I banned the channel from my algorithm completely. Kind of a shame since I was looking forward to some of the retro ups & downs, but that's how it goes.
Remember, Ramsey knew Mariner at the Academy, and she's a Captain, who thought Mariner would be a Captain by now. In TOS Kirk was the youngest captain in the history of the fleet at 35, so even if Ramsay is younger than that, she would'nt be much younger. Probably stil early 30's. So if Epsode Lower Decks takes place in 2369, and show Lower Decks takes place in 2380, assuming she was 21 or 22 when she graduated Starfleet Academy, that would make Mariner also in her early 30's. So this epsidoe didnt mess up her timeline at all. Plus throwing Locarno and Sito Jaxa in is paying Homage to the entire series namesake, the epsiode "Lower Decks"!
Sorry Sean, but Sito was the dilithium up of the season. It hit me in the chest, rocked me to my core. I almost cried. It was perfect.
Honestly I feel dropping Sito in this was perfect, lower decks probably would not have existed withought its name sake and in a way I feel like this brings many stories, old and new full circle.
I’m so glad you mentioned this! They were already inextricably tied together, so it didn’t feel like a name drop for me either.
1. I strongly disagree with you on Mariner; I think this checks out. Essentially, she's been triggered by her promotion and her inability to dodge it. She's decompensating. She's reckless -- and getting people hurt -- because she's not in control of her emotions. It all makes sense. And hopefully, she will between this and next episode find a way to find peace.
2. The Star Wars notes even go to the music; if you listen to the musical cues when the moon shuttle is landing, it's got John Williams in its core.
This could just be an overly dark reading of the character, but to me Mariner's self-destructive behavior reads as survivor's guilt. When she says "I just want to be an ensign", I think she meant that she wanted to die as an ensign i.e. to die as 'red shirt' on a mission. She is being reckless in the hope that it will kill her, and she is confident enough in the competency of her friends to believe that only she will die. To be promoted to the point where she is no longer in a position to do this, to her might feel like a betrayal not just of Sito but of all of her ensign friends who have died before her.
Very interesting reading. Thank you.
I think that's a very well-supported read. More to the point, she sees the upper echelons of Starfleet as responsible for sending people to die in the Dominion War -- she flat out says she doesn't want to order other people to their death. She's willing to die herself, she's fine with that -- but she doesn't want to become what she's grown to despise.
That's what war does. You're going to have people that are going to order other people to their deaths. You can't avoid that. So that part of it is misguided. The point she makes and it's a valid point is that they expected to go out and explore and all this other stuff But here she is Academy she's barely still an ensign at that point and now she and EVERYONE around her is involved in the largest intergalactic war in history against an enemy that can diguise itself as anything plus the genetically created soldiers that are absolutely merciless in battle
Connecting the successful spin-off of Lower Decks to it's namesake after four seasons in such a direct, and yet completely unexpected way, was marvelous. This is good story telling, Mariner is clearly going through some shit, just as all the characters in the TNG Lower Decks episode were all going on emotional journals tied to their promotions, or at least their potential promotions.
Man. I was MOVED by Mariner’s back story. We learned more about her in this episode than we’ve learned all series. Especially her obsession with staying an ensign, the highest rank Sito ever achieved, and the context of her Dominion War PTSD, which really feels like Ortegas in SNW. And this means she’s old friends with Locarno, and the setup of her being kidnapped by him and of him being revealed as the mystery ship…! And we’ve finally united all the lower deckers. AND the age makes perfect sense - The First Duty was 68, LD is 80. 12 years from a cadet places her comfortably in early 30s.
I just couldn’t disagree more with your take on that. It’s rich, and it’s beautiful, and it ties the show to the namesake episode for the first time, and it finally gives us a peek into Mariner’s psyche.
Mariner could VERY easily look a bit younger than she is. She is played (in live action too now) by an actress who turned 40 this year. A friend /maybe girlfriend from the academy is a captain already. Sure Boimler says they're "the same age" in the first episode but like... did anyone watching strange new worlds assume Beckett to be in her late 30s? Beckett could easily be early to mid thirties (and honestly that makes more sense than her being in her twenties given everything else we know) which is pretty much dead on to have been at the academy the same time as Sito and Nick. And I think it's been foreshadowed all season that *something* was happening with her and that being promoted was messing her up somehow. I dont know if this was the plan from lower decks season 1 but i dont think it came totally out of nowhere.
It's actually not a bad representation of a trauma response tbh. (Source - I have full-blown ptsd. Stupid, self destructive risk taking behavior is pretty classic "my trauma doesn't want good things for me" stuff and takes years and years and lots of work to get totally on top of)
I mean pretty much all the details on her background add up to early to mid 30s.
And this is just more details.
I'd like to point out in Trek it's been implied the food is more nutritional with the replicators "Computer I want real chocolate cake" (troi). And medical care it much higher. It wouldn't surprise me for people to look more youthful on average if some care is taken.
@davidgipe997 apparently you can get accidentally pregnant well into your 50s in trek too. In trek EVERYONE ages like Tawny Newsome.
@@rachelk5554 Not surprising. Nowadays we get more healthy "geriatric" pregnancies than 100 years ago because of more and better food and healthcare. In a few hundred years, fertility could extend to one's 60s.
Mariner’s progression and regression feels extremely natural for someone whose suffered that much PTSD.
She’s basically a WW2 vet.
She's any vet in any war that has ever seen deep combat.
As someone who LOVES the lower decks tng episode, this explanation just really hit me hard. I loved it. Absolutely loved it. I completely know where she's coming from and completely relate to her entire explanation
I disagree. We already know that Mariner was demoted several times, and have served befoe the Dominion War. I think the connection with Sito was perfect.
I wondered if Mariners behaviour was a slight throwback to the DS9 episode with Nog living in the holosuite. She even refers to the dominion war in her confession with the Klingon. If intentional by the writers it’s a nice way to connect the events of Lower Decks (the TNG episode) and the dominion war arc in DS9 and acknowledge how these types of conflicts can cause long term effects for the people and societies involved.
Sorry Mariner's arc didn't work for you, I found it extremely moving and felt that the tie-in to the TNG episode Lower Decks was the icing on the cake. It had me in tears.
Yeah, first time Lower Decks caused my eyes to leak... Maybe second (Shaxs and Rutherford in the season 1 finale). It was such a profound puzzle piece snapping into place for Mariner's character, and it shows that her whole Starfleet career has been defined by loss. We've known she has abandonment issues, but now we know that it tracks all the way back to her early academy days.
Her childhood being heavily implied to be aboard the Enterprise-D probably meant she went into the academy full of Picard-inspired idealism and wonder, and then suffered repeated rug-pulls throughout her career, leading to pre-emptive self sabotage as a way of life (evident since season 1).
All that hit me at once and I cried for her.😢
Same!
I can not watch an episode of Lower Decks without having an Irish man's voice echoing in my ear "That's an up!" I can already hear you saying "That's an up" when Biomler utters "Teach me how to dance Beverly Crusher!", and your episode of Ups and Downs hasn't dropped yet. You're in my head man!!!
Cannot take Sean seriously after he entered “my lovely horse” to Eurovision
Or when Mariner boops the Klingon on the nose
Same lol as soon as Boimler said it, I went "is that gonna be the Latinum Up?"
Oh man... now I am going to start doing that.. thanks 😛
It's worse. I'm watching older Star Trek and wondering if Sean would have given a down or an up here and there 😂
Can I just say it's funny that Ups and Downs are longer than the episodes most every week. I love it.
I’d like to point out that the twist that the crews mutinied against their captains was hinted all throughout each of the various “Lower Deck” scenes of each race, since the beginning. They all show some level of discontent with their commanders.
On the Klingon ship, Ma’ah’s former friends mention that Ma’ah won’t be captain for much longer. That same Klingon is later acting as the captain of the ship in this episode.
On the Romulan ship, they talk about their plans to betray the captain.
On the Orion ship, the male Orion talks about getting his own ship and being capable of more than sorting trash.
And the Ferengi ship is pretty self-explanatory.
I loved this episode. It explains so much of how she has been acting. I think its always been obvious that Mariner and Rutherford are the oldest of the lower deckers. I am actually so excited to see the next episode.
I think this is the first time I've ever disagreed with your review of an episode.
Mariner's survivor guilt is shown so well, similar to B'ellana in Voyager. It's self destructive. The link in with Sito, was perfect. We all felt bad for Sito, she died unexpectedly after creating a connection to the audience.
Another up from me: When Mariner says "We don't have to like each other." Boimler has a look on his face that says he definitely thinks otherwise.
I have to disagree about Mariner and Sito. I felt like this plot line really worked for Mariner, and connecting her to Sito felt sort of full circle with Lower Decks the Shore thing back to Lower Decks the episode. I felt this connection added depth to what Mariner is going through without having to spell it all out since we know exactly who Sito was, what she went though, and how tragically her story ended.
I think there is another point that got missed in the U&D this week -- Mariner convinced everyone to work together with a Star Trek (TM) speech! "We must work together because there is a better way!" It's about putting the past behind us and aspiring to a better future. It's what makes Star Trek Star Trek. There have been a number of them in Lower Decks, but could this be the first one said by Mariner? If it is, that would make it a strong candidate for my Dilithium Up of the season.
So I completely understand why you have an issue with what feels like backsliding on Mariner's character development Sean, but I'd like to make a case for it. My relationship with my now-deceased aunt on my dad's side has always been complex. She loved me dearly and did alot for me growing up...but she also fat shamed and infantilized me and pulled all sorts of other bullshit, then hid behind her clout in the family. As such, I've always had conflicting feelings about her. Last April, she and I had a conversation after which all seemed to be as okay as possible between us and I felt genuinely good about it! ....then she became terminal and passed away. All of a sudden, all of the complicated, conflicting feelings came POURING back, and I had to spend summer and early fall of this year processing and working through them. If my life was a TV show, its possible viewers would feel my character had slid back to an earlier state. Here's the thing about trauma though; healing from it isn't a linear affair. Mariner worked through her bullshit enough to become a responsible team playing lower decker up to this point, but promotion this season ripped that bandaid right off and brought all of her trauma right back to the surface...except now even more intensely. The promotion was the inciting incident for her to come face to face with the exact reason for and depth of her trauma, and honestly after my experiences this past year, I buy it completely. I get that it might not work for everyone, but to me? It felt true to life. The darkest point in the night before the dawn if you will.
So hold on, did they not catch that the Klingon stranded cap is the same guy from Wej Duj, thus reuniting all three lower decks crews from that episode for the first time? They even make a joke about it when Tendy and T'Lyn realize they were both at the Pakled space battle.
Also, they missed more Star Wars references. People already mentioned the wipes, but the uniforms of the guys from the control tower being dicks to the Cerritos are clearly just imperial uniforms.
Thought I recognised him! Just couldn't pick where from
Yeah, part of the theme of Locarno's plot is to convince Lower Decks members of various species/ships to turn against their senior officers. He'll probably try to convince Mariner to do the same.
All anyone remembers about Wej Duj is the T’Lyn plot. I remember when the first episode this season showed the mysterious ship destroyed his ship and I was completely shocked they killed off Ma’ah.
The planetary shield gate is also very similar to the one in Rogue One.
@@oreotaku4017 He even gave his apparent death a down because he "liked those klingons."
I loved the tie in to TNG Lower Decks. Also the Ferengi friend put her on the path towards this behavior. I love that it took a Boimler like Klingon to snap her out of it.
I thought Tawny Newsome’s delivery in the scene was excellent. Emotional without being overblown. Something like that could so easily be screwed up.
Hear, hear.
AGREE!
Agreed. It's like at the end of "New Eden" on Discovery, while Pike is recovering and asks Burnham not to make him laugh, the slight laugh he gives to Burnham's joke could have been easily overdone.
Any criticisms of the content of the episode aside, the performance was an up.
You harping on the Sito thing when it could emphasize how much she keep things close to the chest, really bringing home the fact that she keeps that outer shell up to protect herself, is shortsighted. It is almost also implied she may know Lacarno from the academy if her mom sent her away and Lacarno beamed her up at the end.
To your point, Lacarno looks quite aged, so if they were in the Academy together, even if she was a first year when they were in their last year, that would put her age pretty up there.
Also, the people on the list with Lacarno are all people that were “wronged” by starfleet on some level…something to think about.
I feel I have to disagree with Mariner being out of character. Progress and development isn't linear, especially when it comes to mental health, in the past her insubordination was as a way of deflecting responsibility while here she's clearly going through a crisis. This is more reflective of her behaviour in the first Crisis Point episode.
I love that Rutherford was chosen for the B-story mission, not just because of the trust the crew have placed on it, but recognising his own history and how it could reflect with Locarno's. The whole "Billups is the bounty hunter" twist I wouldn't say is contrived, but we certainly lacked the information to retrospectively acknowledge that there was a plan in place that the Lower Deckers wouldn't have been privy to. Something simple like them waiting outside the briefing room and having Billups leave before they're called in, for instance.
The Sito element did feel when it was introduced to be a haphazard addition to Mariner's backstory, but I'm holding off on judgement until the finale. One of Lower Decks's strengths is being able to expand on or explore elements of previous series in a new light, so having this connection to Nova Squadron may be important when it comes to a potential character exploration of Locarno next episode.
Sean says that Sito death is the main reason why Mariner is behaving this way, and he doesn't like it. Did he miss the part that Mariner also lost friends in the Dominion War?
Sito's death was just the start of her downward spiral. Losing more friends in th Dominion War made it worse.
He does have a point that they should have left bread crumbs that lead up to it. And as for Mariner's age, they really should mention it at least once so that way to clear up how the pieces fit together better. She could be older than she looks. In which cases, she is taking care of herself pretty well. Appearance wise and her combat abilities anyway. The other stuff she does might need some work.
Also Mariners behavior reminds me of when B'Elanna Torres from Star Trek Voyager started to put herself in harms way when Chakotay told her that most of their Maquis friends were killed by the Dominion when the Cardassian joined them when Voyager was able to contact the Alpha Quadrant using the relay stations that the Hirogens use. The only Maquis groups that survived were arrested by Starfleet, that one small group that Eddington was in charge of but needed Sisko help in rescuing them. Eddington died covering their escape, that one Bajoran member that was kicked out because he wanted to use brainwashing methods to recruit more members for the Maquis and the former Maquis members on Voyager
B'Elanna was putting herself in danger by using the holodeck and using two holodeck programs, one was a very high altitude sky diving program, the other was fighting Cardassians in a cave with dead members of the Maquis on the ground with the safety programs off which means she could have died. Other members of Voyager notice her behavior, the Doctor even told them that he was also concerned about her too because when Chakotay was looking for her she was unconscious in the holodeck using a new program to test a simulation of the Delta Flyer since this is the episode that introduced the Delta Flyer and she helping with it's construction along with Tom Paris, Harry Kim, Tuvok, and Seven of Nine. He took her to sickbay, and the Doctor pointed out that she had injuries that were caused by the holodeck and he didn't know about this because B'Elanna was treating them herself as he pointed out when treating her. Chakotay stopped her from harming herself and asked her why she was doing this. She said that the Maquis members were like family to her and that she lost her family. Chakotay told her that Voyager is their new family and she would not lose them.
I agree as you mentioned, the survival guilt theme has been used on Voyager with Torres after she heard of her Marquis friends being caught or killed and questions why she is alive when they are not...so LD is using that VOY theme to good effect for Mariner's character development.
Sean, how did you miss all the hints about Mariners age? Her academy classmate Amina Ramsay is a Captain, she served on DS9 at the same time as Worf, she's been promoted and demoted multiple times as of the start of Lower Decks. She has also served on five Starfleet ships, including the Atlantis, the Quito and an Oberth class, and as recently as this episode revealed she fought in the Dominion War.
Yeah, it's one thing if the TNG connection didn't work, but the age thing absolutely makes sense. She's had a shit ton of demotions _and_ fought during the war, there was no way she was going to be younger than 25.
31 isn't that old and for all the shippers who care about age gap shit, she's not that ridiculously older than Boimler either.
First episode of Ups & Downs I didn't like. The entire point of Mariner acting the way she does is that its out of character, reckless, and dangerous. At this point she seems to be, at least passively, suicidal. Character development doesn't strictly mean positive growth, and making it a down this week feels like you're reducing all characters to caricatures who aren't allowed to regress or have anything but a perfect arc from bad to good.
Regressing to hurting someone and then not even relenting is not just a little regression
@@OhNoTheFaceShe didn’t hurt anyone. The behavior was indicative of the regression which was caused by a trauma. The rest was a consequence without intent.
@@matthewshalk9665 Exactly. He was alive to be attacked because she got the force field back up. Did she do things well? Uh, no, definitely not, but it's a little harsh to blame that all on her, especially given that the scene was driven at least partly by Rule of Funny.
I'd never think we'd get an actual *controversial* Ups & Downs episode. Such Drama!
... We've known, or at least strongly suspected, Mariner was a bit older and had trauma related ro the Dominion War for ages. Like it's been being hinted at for *years*.
I was disappointed at a lack of Boimler screams but "teach me to dance Beverly Crusher" made up for it.
I think it's an acceptable thing for Mariner to not be over the death of Sito Jaxa, especially if it happened early on in Mariner's Academy years. The talk therapy that Migleemo does is not the fixer for everyone, and Mariner would have gone from the academy and grieving the loss of her friend directly into the Dominion War. It also shows why she is so defensive and acts out every time she gets promoted: she doesn't want to be a Picard ordering someone like her to their death. It's why she never joined in with "The Redshirts" to rank up, and I would guess a lot of mixed feelings were brought up when she saw the Dominion War memorial on Ferenginar. C-PTSD works differently on different people, and I do find it believable that the Klingon from Wej Duj was the better person to talk Mariner through her trauma than her friends. Except maybe T'Lyn, She's Vulcan as a mfer, or so I've heard.
Sean, people have been having deep conversations regarding this for at least a year and a half. No way you are just catching on to this.
It drives me up the wall that many of those conversations have taken place on the comment sections of his videos! Does it really mean anything when he says something about telling him anything in the comments? Does he actually not read them at all?
@@DarkSapiens The fandom anticipated this like 2 years ago. I guess I can't assume content creators are as deeply intune with those trends and conversations that the audience is having.
@@DarkSapiens Probably not tbh - that's just your standard call to action to drive engagement
I got no problem with Mariner name dropping her friend as the reason she doesn't want responsibilities.
Sure, it could have been any other character, but I think it's nice to metatextually connect Lower Decks to... Lower Decks. If they'd picked a random person, everything would still have played out the same, but without this connection.
It could have been just as good a scene without her name drop, but for me, it adds a nice real world link to the formative moments of this very series.
Yeah, that's what makes it work for me. It retroactively gives a reason to the name of the show, and I can be down with that.
I mean, it's not even the biggest subtle retcon from the (much worse) season 1, anyway.
Someone in the chat pointed out that focusing on Jaxa ignores everything she said about her Dominion War trauma. And I can see that. I just agree with Seán that if Jaxa had had such a profound effect on her life, it would have come up before now.
it's literally the premise of the show. All of the characters are there because of backstories that are slowly revealed. Things like Mariner using the holodeck to make escapes from Cardassian ships and wanting to destroy the crew in her Vendetta movie. This is a show that has some of the best portrayals of PTSD I've seen @@mademedothis424
@@GSBarlevI mean, would it? It's not like she's particularly forthcoming with her past anyway.
If anything the weird part is she decides to confide on some guy she was just fighting, despite the "one of us will be dead in the morning" throwaway line.
@@mademedothis424TBH it can be easier talking to a stranger with no pre-existing connections, like talking to a therapist instead of a close friend. That distance can make opening up easier
I always assumed that Mariner was quite old. One of the people she went to the Academy with is already a Captain, Ramsey, the substitute captain from season one. She is at least a decade, if not two, out of the academy.
Mariner does not want the promotion because Sito was never able to advance to that level. Going past Ensign- Sito's last rank- seems to Mariner to be a betrayal. It's like survivor's guilt. It's also an interesting flip on Sam's choice to accept the promotion in the TNG "Lower Decks" episode- where his friends assured him that Sito would be happy for him and want him to take it and succeed. Mariner didn't have that support system and has been wrestling with her feelings and whether to advance her career since Sito's death. We also have no idea just how close she was to Sito or the true nature of their relationship- they may have been very close. As far as Mariner's age- she could be several years younger than Sito as Sito was held back a year and Mariner could have been a first year Cadet in Sito's fifth year.
I love this idea.
So I always thought that Mariner was in her early to mid 30s. If we were to assume that Mariner was maybe a freshman cadet who joined Starfleet Academy at the same year as TNG's "The First Duty," we can assume that she joined up at age 18-19 in 2368. Season 1 of Lower Decks takes place in 2380, 12 years later, making her 30-31. Meaning now, she'd be 34-35. The math does make sense for me.
In reality Mariner apparent regressiona and even worsening is pretty much spot on, her being a lt. Jr and failing to be demoted quickly as usual and even having a lot of support from friends and officers for continuing her career making the demotion looking like a failure this time put an enormous level of stress on her at psycological level. So she become almost suicidal in her reckleness, if the Cerritos had even a semi competent counselor the entire picture will have been clear long long time ago but they are struck with the idiotic bird so Mariner go untreated
Very surprised they brought back Nick Lacarno
I feel Sean maybe judging to harshly. Trauma doesnt Magically goes away. & them tieing lower decks to lower decks was very neat.
I feel like Sean doesn’t read the comments because people have been commenting on how wrong he is about Mariner for this entire season
I hope this isn’t the case and next week he corrects many of his statements
Don't hold your breath.
I think thr Star Wars vibes are deliberate, as a way to contrast Carol and Becket. Becket tries to be a Star Wars character and fails miserably. Carol *pretends* to do the same thing, but is actually using a bit of subterfuge and knowledge of how people act to get what she needs.
Also, you also see the Starburst on the Klingon ship
Fantastic episode! And I patiently await Seân's removal of the Trellium Down for Mariner's "old ways" now that we know it wasn't truly resolved before.
I been thinking about this since i saw it.
And....... he doubled down on it. No, Seán! You must see it my way! (KIDDING!)
yeah i definitely think they did a good job writing what's eating her up into the actual story
Waiting for a GOOD answer
Hah. He’ll never address it again.
It’s kinda nice the Mariner isn’t OP superman without kryptonite! I like that they have really spent time this season developing everyone to be much stronger personalities, not just super perfect Mariner. This has been the best season so far.
Mariner doesn't want to outrank Sito either, that's my head cannon.
Glad to see the empathy and maths nerds of the Trek community coming together to teach Sean what's what. You're good eggs, the lot of you.
I'm just putting this here in advance: my own latinum up for the episode was Nick Locarno having a gorram KOLVOORD STARBURST design on his jacket. Absolutely brilliant touch.
I did NOT notice the Starburst! Wow!
Still a bit shocked from the Sito Down but hugs to Sean anyway.
I think that Mariners' recklessness is on par with the recklessness of B'lana on the holodeck after she found out the Maquis had been wiped out. Shes dealing with real emotional trauma.
It's been implied on a number of occassions that Mariner was at least ten years older the Boimler. He just thought they were the same age or so. It's still possible they aren't that far a part in age, but anyway...there's no discrepancy here. I actually thought this was a great episode with a great call-back. It felt incredibly natural to me...just my opinion.
Also, even if this wasn't there plan all along...does it really matter? How often do the writers and producers have shows planned this far ahead? Not often I'd assume.
I'm thinking Sito will be back next week so that her name drop becomes more than just a name drop. Just a suspicion on my part, but when she died, we never saw a body. Maybe Wesley comes back in the finale and breaks the rules using his traveler powers to save her life at the last possible moment? Or she was beamed away by the Cardassians at the last minute for questioning and became a prisoner of war? I don't know. But never accept that a character is dead unless you see them die. Anyway, be prepared to take back that down next week. Just a hunch.
If Sito Jaxa was captured by the Cardassians, she might've already been in the prison camp that Thomas Riker was sent to after "Defiant".
Even if you see them die, they can come back anyway like Shaxs!
Personalty, i think Sito being alive would be a really bad turn and to a degree even devalue Mariners monologue and trauma.
They like to use the same actor/actress when they bring someone back (like Lycia Naff / Sonya Gomez), but Shannon Fill retired from acting almost 30 years ago. Playing Sito Jaxa was one of her last roles.
I think its not gonna just be Mariner's friendship with Sito that matters, Sito was also part of Nick's squadron, so there's a connection there as well.
This was a very good episode, especially since it gives you the origins of why Mariner has the attitudes that she has when it comes rank and the responsibility that it has , and always wanted to do the right thing on her own . It's safe to say that Mariner is older than her friend in actual age and time in service. And that she was friends with the original lower deckers and as we find out that ensign Sito was a good friend of her's. But in that episode ensign Sito not only got the second chance in Star Fleet and with the crew but she got to show Mariner that Star Fleet was something to really be a part of . Also in that episode ensign Sito died honorably and all the lower deckers and the senior staff took it hard . So, I can why Mariner would take Sito death hard , but not to the point to ruin her career. And has anyone noticed over the star trek time with Klingons are always the ones with tell the truth about how a character that be having trouble or doubt about themselves, it's seems a Klingon (most time it's Worf) have to tell the honest truth to that character and setting them on the right path to self redemption. Mariner has the same concerns about a crew member to their death , Captain Pike being tried of having to decide who lives and who dies. Captain Kirk in Star Trek Continues when he he tells Bones how many people died under his command and the fact he knew their names and could see their faces . In Star Trek The Next generation counselor Trio's reluctance to ordering a crew member or friend to do a task that could results in their deaths , which Riker told her in order to be a full commander and be a bridge officer you have to be able to do this . There is a reason why the old saying R. H. I. P. = Rank has it's privileged; and that's the downside of the old saying. If Mariner had had not taken the path she has taken it's safe to say she would be a full commander now and probably her mother's executive officer.
It’s blatantly obvious that the connection to Sito, and thus TNG’s “Lower Decks”, has been there from the very beginning. That, and all of Mariner’s actions over the past four years actually make a hell of a lot of sense in hindsight, including wanting to sacrifice herself to protect others because she’s sick and tired of losing those she cares about.
Also, it’s very evocative of “Extreme Risk” from VOY, albeit Mariner’s been perpetually grieving for all this time while hiding it under a shell of rebellion. Losing her role model on top of Dominion War trauma ruined her for life. And as has been stated countless times, one conversation does not magically fix everything. Even the moment she has with Ma’ah (whom you suddenly forgot was a thing) is able to get her to calm down and, while not “magically fixed”, able to function as a proper Starfleet officer.
it's weird. like a serious mental block against facing trauma and processing it