❓Vacuum-Ported Catch Can: Crankcase Vent + External Breather + Vacuum = Perfect❓
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
- Is this the sweet spot for solving the M8 crankcase pressure issues? I've combined the transmission top cover crankcase vent, external breather mod, and a vacuum source into a single catch can solution. In this video I give you the details of the three different approaches I tried, and share what I learned along the way. This video is a continuation of the series related to Milwaukee Eight crankcase pressure, venting, and sumping. I've installed this vacuum-ported catch can on my 2019 Softail Street Bob FXBB that has the Stage III kit.
⏱️ 𝗧𝗔𝗕𝗟𝗘 𝗢𝗙 𝗖𝗢𝗡𝗧𝗘𝗡𝗧𝗦 ⏱️
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00:00 Intro
00:14 Background: Crankcase Venting, Playlist
00:45 My Current Setup - Works Great!
01:20 Why Try Catch Can?
01:30 Welcome & Introduction
01:48 Project Details
02:20 Thanks To Viewer J Ecr
02:42 The Catch Can
02:57 Where To Install It
04:09 Installation
04:32 Attempt #1: Throttle Body Vacuum (Too Much)
05:40 Attempt #2: Tapping Intake Tube (Not Measurable)
06:59 Attempt #3: Throttle Body Vacuum + Damper (Just Right?)
08:59 How Much Vacuum Is Acceptable?
09:22 Results After Logging Some Miles
09:55 Check Valve?
10:22 Viable Options?
11:10 💭 Vented Your Crankcase?
11:34 👍🏼 Like & 🗣 Share
11:44 ✅ Subscribe & Enable All Notifications 🔔
11:55 Bloopers & Outtakes 🤪
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Three-Port Catch Can*
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Moroso Air/Oil Separator Catch Can*
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PLAYLIST: M8 Crankcase Pressure • Venting • Sumping
• M8 Crankcase Venting, ...
Crankcase Venting Check-Up - Is It Working?
• ❓Check-Up: M8 Transmis...
Make Brass Fittings Black
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Rain Sock - Hype Or Reality?
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M8 Clutch Hub Adjustment • Friction Zone
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#sumping #catchcan #externalbreather #m8 #ronsworkshop - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Could this be the perfect solution for venting the crankcase, adding the external breather mod, and providing vacuum for the crankcase? Maybe so. Let me know what you think.
Ron, please give us your thoughts on the Moroso air/oil separator. It seems perfect, but pricey. They offer a model in different finishes for the M8.
@@Greenmachine305 Yeah, I think that could be a good option. This is a small body universal model: amzn.to/3pueTAA (silver) and amzn.to/46q4eaE (black) A bit pricey as you said, but it may work well. If you or anyone else tries it, please let me know!
@@RonsWorkshop I'm using your trans cover mod and a basic intake breather mod. I like your solution better for the price. Not going to bother with the check valve.
your videos on these M8's are terrific. Thank you for sharing all your work and research.
Hey vicsponjr - Thank you for the kind words! Be sure to check the latest video on the topic as well: th-cam.com/video/JPI3AeMfYeg/w-d-xo.html
And if you want a sticker send me a DM on Telegram, Instagram or Signal with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
Hi Ron, wanted to drop you a line to say I really appreciate the content you release and the thorough manner in which you present it. Keep up the great work sir.
Hey Jeremy - thanks so much for the kind words!
Awesome video! I’ll be sure to keep watching the channel for longer term updates on this project!
Hey Bick5402 - thanks for the kind words! I’ll be monitoring with the vacuum gauge and trying different settings so at some point I’ll definitely post an update.
And if you want a sticker send me a DM on Telegram, Instagram or Signal with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
Great video as always. Keep ‘em coming. Interested to see long term results. 👍🏻
Hey Chris - thanks for the kind words! So far she’s running great with the vacuum restricted down to 1-2”. I’ll do some more testing and take some more readings and post an update within a few weeks.
You have really put a lot of thought into this I like the idea of a little vacuum in the crank case I’m going to do this to my Slim thanks .
Hey Ken - thanks for the feedback! Let me know how it goes.
So much effort went into this....I know racers (V8'S) etc and F1 use vacuum crankcases from memory sure I Heard 6ft pound vacuum what V8 guy was using.......but anyway, Im sure the answer to which is best is clear......DYNO!
Hey John - that sounds like a great idea! And I have a few projects in the hopper that will involve the dyno...so keep an eye out for those. Working out the details and timing...
I’m playing with this exact thing on my Toyota and my solution before watching this was exactly what you did. So thanks for the confirmation and now I need to source a damper!
I’m so glad it was helpful! Down in the video description there’s a link to the damper I used. Let me know what you end up with and how it works!
I just found your channel really good videos I just did some stuff in my 20 street glide. So I’m bringing the head pressure and extra oil. From the intake down a hose to the top of the transmission cover to where the engine oil hole is then I drilled a small hole in the cover so it can breathe out the transmission vent. And I also have a a1 vented dip stick so I don’t have a lot of crank case pressure so far it’s working great. New subscriber here thanks again
Hey Cape Cod Biker - thanks for the kind words and thanks for sharing your project details!
By the way, I lived in Hyannis for 7 years :)
And if you want a sticker send me a DM on Telegram, Instagram or Signal with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
Another great Vid..
Thanks Eric! We’ll see how it does after more miles. Still not totally sure what I’ll stick with.
Very Interesting....
I'm going to stick with my 2 vented hoses with check valves, love the simplicity and added peep to the engine.
Either way, great ideas.
👍
Hey Aaron - thanks for the kind words! As long as your solution is working well that’s all you need! I like that simplicity as well.
Excellent
Glad it was helpful!
Hi Ron. Great job with that system. I'm still toying with the vent and catch can from the transmission cover you presented back in the spring. I get a lot of froth filling that can so I have to empty it quite often. Keep up the good work!
Hey T Luck - Thank you for the kinds words and encouragement! The transmission top cover vent is very effective so you can’t go wrong with that! I’m curious to see how much milky gunk I get in my catch can. It’s sort of a pain to get to mine but I’ll definitely need to check it periodically.
@@RonsWorkshop So what's causeing the milky spun up oil ? pressure / heat / vacuum which pushes out ,,,cheap oil ? and what does the vacuum actual do for the motor as i thought you want to get rid of all that pressure ? cheer Ron great work
Hey Damien - sorry about the delay in responding. TH-cam held the comment for review and I just discovered it.
The milky crap is a mixture of moisture and oil vapor from the crankcase. I run Harley synthetic right now, it's not because of cheap oil. Pressure is bad, but some vacuum is good. The pressure can cause sumping and other issues, where the vacuum helps ring seal, reduces aeration, etc. I cover it a bit more in this video: th-cam.com/video/F2N7kwCspQE/w-d-xo.html
And thanks for the encouragement!
Hi Ron! Sorry about my English I’m brasilian (we speak portuguese) Awesome work, you are spreading knowledge across the world and you’re reaching far beyond you could ever imagine! I’m gonna try to use the same source of vacuum you did in line with the crank case vent and an in-line fuel filter in the middle as a catch can, I’ll let the original breathers stock first, as I believe that the vacuum at the crank vent will be enough to completely eliminate oil in the breather bolts. I’ll let you know as soon as I do it and get the results. Keep it up bro.
Hey João Maurício Basile de Souza - Thank you for the kind words! And please do let me know how it goes.
Love your videos. In the race car world we route our pvc hoses to our exhaust and let it draw it out and burn it. “Pan evac” it draws enough vacuum at idle to suck your hand against it tight.
Hey Tyler - thanks for the kind words! Yeah that’s a classic race car setup for sure. There a little crossover tube between the two tubes. I wonder if there’s enough vacuum there. Might be worth trying!
And if you want a sticker send me a DM on Telegram, Instagram or Signal with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
@@RonsWorkshop yea I’d be interested in seeing these bikes would pull vacuum. Tig weld a nice little -4 stainless bung and run a nice little stainless braided hose.
@@TyScott85 duly noted! I'e got it on the list...not sure of the timing, but I do want to check into that.
Ron great experiment. I always thought that the capped nozzle on the throttle body was a more positive vacuum source. With it tied into the catch can and the check valve removed from the atmospheric vent, seems the vacuum would alternate between sucking fresh air from the vent, and sucking pressurized crankcase air on the pistons downstroke. Doesn’t seem like it would contribute much in keeping vacuum on the crankcase. I’ve got my 2019 SG transmission cover vented to atmosphere using a 5/8” hose and check valve, with factory crankcase system still installed. I’ll see how that goes as I continue to follow your work. Thanks. Ken
Hey Ken - thanks for the input and the kind words! In my case with this catch can there is no vent to atmospheric. That’s why I left out the check valve for now. And all of the checks I’ve done so far show consistent vacuum. We’ll see how it looks after more miles and more testing.
I use the vented dip stick and Trax Trans vent with a catch can never any problems built motor 139 hp and 135 tork great runner
Hey Chris - thanks for sharing the details of your setup. Glad it’s working well!
Hi Ron, I went with 2 vents in the trans cover (crankcase section) one from the head and the other to atmosphere. The atmosphere vent is open with no carryover of oil. I think it works well venting in and out of the trans cover.
Hey jongerm66 - thanks for sharing that info! Nice and simple. I like that idea but if I was to implement it I might add a pod filter to the atmospheric vent just for the peace of mind that nothing could enter.
yep did this a while ago - need vacuum on the top end as Harley motors are intended to be set up loose
Hey Jere - thanks for sharing that! Did you notice a performance difference? My “butt dyno” says it improves performance.
@@RonsWorkshop I don't know if performance is the right word but definitely we're going to have less contamination in the fuel mist and the added bonus of oil attempting to burn and my combustion chamber clogging rings & contaminating my valve seats - longevity & efficiency the words
Yep, several benefits indeed!
The vacuum port on the throttle body can be used to operate a flapper gate type air cleaner such as the Kuryakyn Hypercharger (installed on my Ultima 127 ci). Basically you've rerouted the pressurized air coming from the rocker boxes into a filtration device and then returned it back into the intake stream. I'm not sure that I like the idea of introducing heated hydrocarbons into the cool air of the intake stream. On my M8 with the Arlen Ness intake I've done what you did originally by plugging the air passages and rerouting the air from the rocker boxes out to a catch can. I haven't made the alteration at the transmission yet but plan to in the near future. I'd like to connect a gauge to the fitting installed at the transmission to see if at any point the pressure there goes from positive to negative as suggested by several people trying to resolve the issues with Harley's crankcase ventilation system. I appreciate the time and energy you put into your testing and the fact that you share your results with the rest of us who don't necessarily have the time to do so.
Thanks for the encouragement and for sharing that info! The jury is still out on what my final solution will be.
Those gauge results would be interesting too see.
So funny thing is, the spot you found for that can, is where the ABS module is on my Fat Boy 114.
I think a 2021 SE oil pump and camplate kit+Trask CheckM8 Transcase vent is probably all I'd ever need to worry about.
This stuff is getting all too complicated, and adding potential new points of failure/wear and tear.
Yeah I know I got lucky with that open space behind the cover! And simple is good, that’s for sure. The crankcase vent + OEM breather bolts was working well and that’s always an option for me.
I have a recent built TC with 110 kit. Never had any sort of primary/trans transfer. I did have lots of oil carbon buildup on the pistons and combustion chambers after 50k miles. I run seafoam frequently, had no carbon buildup on intake valves. Used DK catch can after engine build. Also note, that air cooled motor gets stupid hot, cylinder walls were heavily scored. I also added love jugs. I’ve put 12k miles on it so far, very happy with performance, and I believe those 2 longevity mods will keep it running new longer. I pull a trailer with the bike, so performance degradation was noticeable prior to the rebuild.
I may pull it back down again after another 50k miles, but hopefully it will continue to pull strong.
Hey 2TRDGTF1 HD SGS - thanks for sharing that info! Sounds like it’s doing well with the rebuild and mods you’ve made.
@@RonsWorkshop thanks, I appreciate the efforts you’ve been doing to resolve M8 issues. I’m going to get one eventually, but was waiting for the MoCo to get the bugs either sorted or smart enthusiast such as you come up with some viable solutions. The MoCo seems to be between a rock and a hard place… trying to meet EPA rules while providing the bike customers expect. Compromises are the result.
Yeah it’s easy to get frustrated about some of these issues, but the reality is that it’s very challenging for HD - and any company that has to comply with EPA regs - to keep meeting consumer expectations around performance when the restrictions keep growing.
Very interesting subject matter. Always more questions are generated from everyone; more than likely from just not enough knowledge, understanding and/or just plain trying it out. Obvious goal: keep the hot oily vapor out of the Air Cleaner/Throttle Body/Intake Tract, while maintaining "good vacuum/pressure situation below the piston rings, the crankcase. I'm running the Trask CheckM8 Venting Piece (transmission topside cover plate) on my Harleys ('21RGS-114 & '22FXLRS-117) and appears to work great. I've been considering adding a External Breathing System (external breather head bolts) into a catch can, but not sure; brings up a question: Can one over-ventilate a Harley V-Twin? Also, I'm researching a great catch can piece that T-Man Performance has for Baggers (mounts in the upper rear fender frame/structure. Thanks for making and sharing these videos, and keep 'em coming. Much appreciated!
Hey Tom - thanks for the encouragement! You hit the nail on the head with the obvious goal. As to the question about too much ventilation - there’s a debate there too. Vacuum in the crankcase is good, but some people have “free breathers” where everything is vented and there’s no vacuum in the crankcase. Bad or good? Not completely sure. In my mind I aim for venting pressure first, then vacuum second (if possible).
9 inches of vacuum is literally the ideal amount according to racing engine builders. They shoot for between 8 and 10 inches of vacuum. It's enough vacuum to see a good increase in power without being enough to really effect oil pressure (excessive crankcase vacuum works against the oil pump trying to suck up oil). I'd pull that petcock off and take advantage of that perfect amount of vacuum while also simplifying the system and minimizing chances for vacuum leaks!
Hey Tanner Saurus - thanks for sharing that info!
@@RonsWorkshop also... After watching your videos, I've started looking into exhaust venturis. Apparently they work well, pull around 2-4 inches, and it keeps everything outside the engine. I think I might go that route. Not even use a catch can... Just two lines, two check valves, and two venturis. Or maybe tee them together into a single venturi right behind the collector. I'm on a Road King Special BTW so slightly different exhaust setup...
@@High_Desert_Tanner I like that idea! Seems simple enough to do - I think the key is making sure you get the port in the right place on the exhaust. Let me know how it goes!
I would love to know what is the vacuum on the two breather tubers in standard form ? Thats if it creates any at all ! Love your channel Ron.
Hey Kyle - thanks for the kind words! Yeah that would be interesting to see. I also wonder if the values would be different between say, the Arlen Ness breather bolt configuration and a stock OEM configuration.
if you want a sticker send me a DM on Telegram, Instagram or Signal with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
So cool that you have designed a Variable Crankcase vacumn. Its something thats always interested me, after all what is happening on the otherwise of the piston seems to get no attention! Wonder if different RPM's prefer different Vacunm or no vacuum? If you could get bike on DYNO you could test different rev ranges then somehow design a gauge that adjust with RPM :) giving you HP increased through rev range, creating better seal on engine....so many positives.
Hey John - That is an excellent question and one I've wondered about as well. That is a very interesting about about the variable vacuum. It makes me think of the racer trick of putting a fitting on the header collector and using that for vacuum, which in effect becomes a variable vacuum source as engine speeds change.
@@RonsWorkshop Ive heard of people doing that but heard it didnt make enough vacuum from the benneli effect or whatever its called......see how you go, cool vid! I might try that header vent on my BMW as rerouting air through the intake will effect performance slightly on its own. after all it is hot engine air getting pushed back through the intakes.
Likewise - let me know if you try it!
I followed your lead with the trans cover/check valve. I did use a larger diameter tube and valve thinking it may breathe a little easier and less likely to clog. Nice job on the trifecta. Id be curious to see if the closed system reduces crank venting if the pressures fight each other. I’m hoping to leave my head breathers alone (since watching your vid suggested that there was no or little oil coming out after venting through the trans cover). From what I I’ve been following, seems that faulty piston jet oilers are a big culprit and scavenging any extra oil in the sump would be the goal.
Hey Ralph - thanks for the info and the kind words! How’s it been working so far, or is it still a WIP?
Yes, the crankcase vent with check valve and the OEM breather bolts was working well. Those piston jets do seem to be common culprits!
And if you want a sticker send me a DM on Telegram, Instagram or Signal with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
Seems to be working well. 3 or 4 rides around 100 miles each. Can’t expect performance gains, but the revs flow better and it feels snappier higher in the revs. I didn’t have any issues before, but by comparison, feel like it would build pressure at higher revs and slow the throttle response a bit. I find myself waiting longer to grab 6th now.
Good experiment. The only way you will know how much vaccum is optimal is in long term variable condition testing.
You are correct! And I haven’t yet set aside the time to run solid tests / experiments to compare.
Ron , is the vacuum lin connected to the manifold between the throttle and the heads? If so i don''t think you would have to worry about too much vacuum because in the automotive world when pcv systems were introduced and still today they were hooked directly to the intake manifolds. This would create a vacuum reading of 14+ lbs.. But when the throttle is in the wide open position the vacuum will drop to zero. i'm curious if you looked at your gauge when you were at full throttle. Racers have found that the more vacuum in the crankcase the better. It helps with ring seal, oil seals, also helps greatly with windage and oil aeration.
Hey Broham - you make a good point about the manifold vacuum. I just wish I could find some “official” guideline on what an acceptable vacuum range is. Unfortunately I didn’t get a chance to check it at WOT. I’ll try to check that sometime. The vacuum is definitely beneficial, but where’s the line?
Thumbs up for tackling one of those difficult issues..interesting but my impression is this mod is excessive and overly complicated, esp with the need for adjustable vacuum tee is just to prone to need checking too often, and likely to plug up often. I'm still leaning towards tapping threads and installing a smallish commonly found, 90 degree PCV valve (with larger opening/capacity than your 1/8 check valve you used earlier) into top my Transmission cover (crankcase vent side) and hosing it away.. maybe rubber band a durable paper towel on the end to see if anything comes out on to the towel.. might vent it open or might add a external filter. maybe $20-$40 mod..
Hey ut1004bp - I don’t disagree! I’m about to publish the follow up video any day now, and I’ll share my assessment and decisions after a few weeks of rising with some more measurements.
Let me know how it goes if you go with the pcv solution - I’m very interested!
just need the check valve back in if you decide to boost it. i doubt you will ever see positive pressure even with a ram air :), if you remove your oil dipstick does the revs rise up ?
Good test on removing the dipstick - I haven't tried that, but I know for sure it has positive pressure, and there is a perceived difference in how the bike runs once that pressure is vented. When I can get around to it I'll try the dipstick trick.
@@RonsWorkshop i was meaning in the airlifter side of the throttle body wont have pressure :)
Do you think you would affect vacuum if you had the breather bypass vented to the top of the transmission cover and still having the transmission cover vented with the check valve?
Hey Dan - If I understand your question, and you tied the breather bypass tubes to the transmission top cover vent - that in itself should work fine, but you’d have no potential for vacuum. The OEM breather tubes (or the ports in intake opening for my Arlen Ness) are the only places the vacuum could come from in a normal configuration. Let me know if that makes sense or if I misunderstood your question.
Hi Ron 😀 tried to get in on your live thing, but was at work and got too busy.
Really appreciate what you've done with all this, and, how you've shared with us all. I'm gonna take the easier way, I've got the breather mod done now. I want to tackle the crank/trans cover mod next. My question is with the intake breather mod, should I just run to a catch can, or do you think it would be beneficial to add a check valve on this as well? And, would you agree that even without the vacuum source, it is much better than the factory set up, far as crankcase pressure... thankyou in advance 😀😀😀
Hey tdbrillo - thanks for the kind worlds and encouragement! With the intake breather mod there’s no longer a potential source of vacuum so you won’t need the check valve. And I’d say it’s personal preference for catch can or just a pod filter. And definitely - even if you don’t have crankcase vacuum it’s beneficial to release that pressure! Let me know how it goes!
Awesome!! Thanks so much Ron. That's exactly what I'm doing 😍 Again really appreciate your help on this complicated subject ha ha. You ROCK!! 🎸
Hey tdbrillo - sorry about the delay in responding. TH-cam held the comment for review and I just discovered it. Thanks again for the kind words! If you want a sticker send me a DM on Telegram, Instagram or Signal with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop
What would happen if instead of using a catch can from the intake breather assembly you would simply run a line into the trans cover and then use another line to vent it away from the trans cover?
Hey Hector - I believe that’s viable too. You could just use a T fitting to tie them together into the one vent line coming out of the transmission top cover rather than adding two lines to the top cover.
Now don't shoot the messenger here but 20 years ago when I built a race engine 8hg of crank vacuum was worth 15 more hp. I had to use a four stage vacuum pump on that engine and I remember measuring and monitoring it to make sure everything was working correctly.
Hey John - I wish we had a good source for determining how vacuum is ok. I know there are some who run over 20” vacuum so maybe 8-10” is totally fine. I just don’t have a way to confirm that.
@Ron's Workshop I know, the whole thing is confusing. I remember paying more for a 4th stage on a vacuum pump to achieve nearly (-14psi) 28 inches of vacuum, but that engine was built for it. I couldn't tell what your gauge was reading (psi or Hg) when I watched your video on my phone.
Remember, atmospheric pressure at sea level is 29.92hg/14.6 psi. That means zero on a pressure gauge at sea level is really 14.6psi.
Good point!
Ron, thanks for all the time & effort that you have expended researching & testing various methods for resolving this troublesome problem. You have the best, most thorough examination of this subject that I have seen. One question for after we have done the mods and solved our oiling issues - is there a fuel additive that actually works to reduce the inevitable carbon build up that accompanies this problem or will I have to resort to professional help to open up the engine to remove the carbon?
Hey Robert - thanks for the encouragement and kind words!
Unfortunately I don’t have any insight into fuel additives. Might be worth checking Project Farm TH-cam channel to see if he’s covered that. He does a good job with objective testing. In fact, I may have seen one of his episodes where he covers that, but I can’t quite remember.
@@RonsWorkshop Thank you. I will check him out.
What is the issue if you just vent to trany cover from intake bolts ? Or put a T fitting in and vent to small filter?
Hey Jay - if you vent the intake bolts to the transmission top cover your pumping even more pressure into the crankcase, or at best not alleviating any of the pressure that needs to be dealt with. You could definitely just vent the top cover using a pod filter without a check valve and that would work well, but doesn’t allow for any vacuum which is definitely beneficial. Primary goal is getting that excess pressure out. Secondary goal is allowing for vacuum. Let me know if that make sense.
Hi Ron
I would imagine that the crank case would be under vacuum. the way I would check that would be through the intake bolts for the breather and see how much vacuum you have there and I would imagine you could run the same amount of vacuum at the transmission cover. I’m new to the motorcycle world but in a race cars we weren’t as much crank case evacuation as possible help seals the rings and proves horsepower. If you have any more information on the subject I would appreciate an update thank you very. much keep up the good work.
Hey captain caveman capt. - thanks for the input! Yeah, vacuum is good. When you say check the vacuum at the intake bolts, do you mean check it at the two mounting bolts that typically have the nipples on them for attaching the ribber hoses that go the throttle body?
@@RonsWorkshop yes. where you drilled into the air cleaner housing has to be good vacuum there to pull that oil into the throttle body.
Ok I’ll see about trying to get some measurements. Not sure of the timing but I’ll keep it on the radar screen.
I need to understand better. Please correct me. If pressure is created upon upstroke of pistons and on stock set up if that pressure is routed through umbrella Valves in the form of oily vapour through breather bolts to be routed back into the intake. Then on the down stroke of pistons when vacuum is created, wouldn't that vacuum be eliminated from that same route because the umbrella valves are only one way?
The umbrella seals should allow pressure to escape but retain vacuum. I don't know if the downward motion of the pistons generates vacuum, but that does make sense. What can say is that without any venting there is definitely positive crankcase pressure.
@@RonsWorkshop I'm venting into external breather for a few reasons. To eliminate oily mist from intake creating carbon build up on pistons, to insure a clean charge of fuel & air to combustion. Also oily vapour displaces volume and even though small that will take away from the optimal stoichiometric ratio. But here's another question. People are saying the vacuum is necessary for ring seal. However, my understanding is the rings are sealed in the first 500 miles breaking in the engine. So why would we worry if we've reduced vacuum by running an external breather? The main thing is your relieving pressure and you're not getting that oily vapour back into the intake. And if you've done the proper job breaking it in and the rings had integrity, they should be sealed properly and should not need constant vacuum.
@@dylandream2248 Even with proper break-in there will always be blow-by that gets past the rings. And as mileage and wear increases that blow-by will likely increase as well. The vacuum just helps with ring seal and also benefits the lubricity of the oil by reducing aeration. That also helps the oil pump more efficiently, helping keep sumping in check. In general, the engine will before better if the crankcase is under vacuum.
I have issues with my Farm bike (Carbureted 250cc single cylinder dirt bike) that I've bought for fun at a garage sale
the past owner have removed the factory airbox for some reason and replaced it with a cone air filter
I noticed right away that it is misfiring when I maxed out the throttle (it sounds like it has a 5000rpm rev limiter)
I first thought
I sorta fixed the issue by directly connecting the breather tube via hole through a homemade intake trumpet to the intake side of the carburetor.. It now runs fine
I have a question though..
why does an engine misfire when the breather tube is disconnected from the airbox/ intake system?
Hey Jasper - I don't think I can help you on that one. I'm not familiar with that exact setup, and two-strokes are definitely not in my wheelhouse. Let me know if you solve the mystery!
@@RonsWorkshop It's a Chinese Bike with a Honda Clone 250cc 4 stroke engine
@@jasperdomacena6491 Ahhh ok. Let me know what you find.
Ron, I'd like to chat about this.
I'm thinking an automotive PCV valve installed either on trans top door, or on the catch can....
Hey Keith - yep, I think that would work. The thing to check for is the opening pressure. Many of the automotive PCV valves have a relatively high threshold. The check valves I ended up with have very low thresholds. Be sure to check the area video as well: th-cam.com/video/JPI3AeMfYeg/w-d-xo.html
Let me know what you end up with!
If I use the factory breather bolts (which have the check valve built in) for my external breather. Why would it keep it from making vacuum?
Hey dmwiningar1 - if you retain the OEM breather bolts then you do indeed retain the possibility of vacuum. It would be similar to my tapping the intake tube, in terms of the vacuum potential. Both rely on the flow of air through the throttle body to draw the vapor in / create vacuum. Let me know if that clarifies things, and thanks for commenting!
@@RonsWorkshop Thanks Ron that is exactly what I thought. That only way that would happen is if you did not use some sort of check valve in your breather.
@@RonsWorkshop Then how could an external breather relate to vacuum in the crankcase one way or the other.
Yeah - correction - they must be ported to the crankcase as well. Sorry about the confusion!
@@RonsWorkshop Thanks Ron! Keep up the good work.
Hi Ron, Thanks for all your great work. I have vented my breather to a catch can now I would like to vent the tranny cover as you explained. is it ok to do both these mods together.or will it mess with vacuum in the engine. sorry I'm a bit confused. thanks again great content!!!!!!!!!!
Hey Brando T - I think you’d be fine doing both. The main argument for not doing both is that it would remove the potential for vacuum in the crankcase - but in all of my testing and experiments I never measured vacuum in the crankcase unless I added an external vacuum source. Let me know if that helps…
@@RonsWorkshop Thanks Ron il let you know how this works out for my 2021 street glide, Maybe you can do a video on the automatic primary tensioners another bad bad haley design
I’ll definitely consider that! Thanks for the suggestion.
Thanks a bunch Ron for this series, I'm now subbed and looking forward to watching more of your videos - awesome stuff, well done :)
The vented tranny cover (Trask or DIY with valve) and OEM breather setup sounds great for somebody like me who hasn't done all that much mechanical tinkering. But I too am obsessed (anal!) about preventing even the smallest amount of blowby getting back in, so I had this crazy idea. What if I replaced the OEM rubber hoses on the breather bolts with a hose fitted with an in-line water/oil separator, the ones that are commonly used on paint sprayers? Either routing the hose into a single separator or even using two separators (if easier to install)? I'm assuming that they would fit inside the standard H-D oval shaped "ventilator" air cleaners and not restrict air flow too much for most street builds (I'd be using the "extreme" air cleaner with the open face for more air flow FYI). I'm guessing there's a stumbling block here somewhere but what do you think, any method in the madness?
Hey Andrew - thanks for the kind words! Your idea seems viable if you didn’t do the external breather mod. (If you do that mod then nothing would get to the throttle body because the ports would be blocked.) You could also use a catch can to serve as your separator - I did a variation on that theme in this video: th-cam.com/video/5h6Apcj7DDg/w-d-xo.html
And here’s my video about the external breather mod for the Arlen Ness monster sucker intake: th-cam.com/video/EqwboR0PQRg/w-d-xo.html
Let me know what you go with! And if you want a sticker send me a DM on Telegram, Instagram or Signal with the mailing info @RonsWorkshop (international is no problem)
@@RonsWorkshop Thanks Ron. I've diligently watched the entire series 🤓 - again, top job. The idea with this is to obviate the need to regulate the vacuum level (with the petcock valve). If it works it just seems easier and simpler to my simple mind ;)
After all the experiments I’ve done my favorite solution is still the original crankcase vent, probably combined with the external breather mod. Trying to regulate the vacuum works but I’m just not sure what the right vacuum level is. So…I will likely incorporate the two into the catch can without trying to apply external vacuum.
@@RonsWorkshop Please correct me if I'm wrong with anything, one of my takeaways from your "Answers" video in this series was that an external breather mod doesn't maintain the vacuum source of the stock setup: th-cam.com/video/BaG1VdOFe48/w-d-xo.html . My thinking is that by keeping the function and position of the breather hoses in the intake unchanged you don't interfere with vacuum levels, the only difference is that you've now got clean(er) air going back in. Again, it seems the vented transmission cover alone does an excellent job, this is all just for added peace of mind for those of us who want it ;)
Hey Andrew - sorry for the delay - TH-cam held this comment and I just came across it. You're right in that removing the breather tubes removes a potential source of crankcase vacuum -- but i haven't been able to measure any vacuum created from that. And yes, the catch can filters out all of the gunk so that what's left should just be clean air, and likely cooler too. Let me know if you give it a go!
At a curiosity, Would I be able to run a line from the crank case to a breather catch can? Or is that overkill.
Hey Jardey7brehh - that’s what I’ve done with this. Everything goes to the catch can. Let me know if you give it a try! And if I misunderstood your question let me know and I’ll readdress it.
I would like to try it. No additional breather mods like the air filter mod. All I want to do is the crank case breather mod to a breather catch can. Now if I run it how you have it, because I have a street bob as well, would I get enough vacuum?.. new to this breather stuff just want to be sure. Also, if I run it, would I need a check valve to the catch can? Thanks !
You could just go with the catch can and no vacuum source to start - that way you know you’ve alleviated the crankcase pressure. The check valve is a nice-to-have, but not required. I’d say it’s more necessary if you use a vacuum source, but as you saw in the video finding a reliable vacuum source is a bit iffy.
Just ordered a catch can. Thank you ! Hopefully this will fix my oily air filter. Lol
Sure thing! Let me know how it goes.
From what I’ve gathered from your video this far is your previous two venting options are sufficient and this is the same plus a small amount of vacuum added. We’re there any noticeable changes in torque or throttle response? I’ve followed every video thus far and am highly invested in how this all turns out
Hey Olend - your assessment is correct. This catch can mod just adds a bit of vacuum to the crankcase and let’s mr use both of the other vent mods. I don’t really have a way to quantify the results. Based on what I’ve learned, I’d expect better ring sealing and less aeration in the sump as a couple of the main benefits. Both of those are beneficial, but whether or not they produce measurable gains is a ❓
Oh and in general, after alleviating the crankcase pressure with any of the vent methods, I feel better throttle response and a perceive improved overall performance.
I was impressed with your work.
But I don't know how you did all the work.
Please upload the necessary parts and hose line method to TH-cam.
Thanks for the kind words! You can see the parts list in the video description of you click “show more”. Do you need more info on routing the lines?
@@RonsWorkshop Is required.
I want to make the same line system as you.
@@RonsWorkshop I have a question.
How did you handle the hose that was in the negative pressure valve of the intake manifold?
Hi 雅人 - the vacuum source goes to the catch can outlet. Crankcase breather line goes to one inlet of the catch can. External breather lines connect together and go to the other catch can inlet. Does that help?
18 inches
How Much Crankcase Vacuum Is Too Much? There is often inadequate lubrication in the engine (Windage) when oil is being thrashed around by moving parts, but that provision needs to exist in your engine if you plan on running more than 18 inches of crankcase vacuum (24 grams).
Hey TheIceyPickle - thanks for sharing that info! 18” still seems like a lot but I have nothing to base that on.
Does this apply to the 2020s?
Hey Justin - there’s no definite answer since there are so many variables. Your bike should have the upgraded oil pump, which is a big plus. You can check the video below for some symptoms of sumping and an easy check if you have any doubts or concerns: th-cam.com/video/F2N7kwCspQE/w-d-xo.html
Let me know how it goes!
@@RonsWorkshop awesome, I've watched all your venting videos from the breather bolts to the transmission breather... its been very helpful
Thanks for the kind words!
In addition to my previous comment…my idea would require welding and modification of the exhaust header. Everyone’s exhaust is different and might not work. Then there is the issue of the catalytic converter which would be destroyed if this setup was added upstream. There are check valves built in to keep positive pressure from the exhaust from traveling up into the lines so I don’t believe my idea would work at an idle and only at moderate to wide open throttle conditions. I guess I’ve talked myself right out of this idea! 🤣
But a good thought exercise nonetheless!
Why is nobody talking about the Moroso air/oil separator? Seems perfect, if not for the price tag.
Hey Greenmachine305 - thanks for sharing that. I’ll check it out.
@@RonsWorkshop Yes please.
@@Greenmachine305 Yeah, I think that could be a good option. This is a small body universal model: amzn.to/3pueTAA (silver) and amzn.to/46q4eaE (black) A bit pricey as you said, but it may work well. If you or anyone else tries it, please let me know!
Love this kind of tinkering.I would say that opening behind throttle plate has to lean mixture,and without a wideband O2 in exhaust you can't tell. But the one in filter housing should still pull a light vac without problems. I know high end drag cars use pan evac and vac pumps more for ring sealing at high rpm than getting rid of oil misting.
I’ve even heard of the extreme end with racers using over 20” vacuum with great results.
Using Law of conservation of energy, when you draw a vacuum out of a system, the system you are drawing the vacuum from will lose some pressure in other words whatever you are using to get your vacuum will be affected in opposite way. How much of an change is done?, is the change negligible to overall performance and functioning? what will happen to the bike overtime by leeching a vacuum off something? remains experimental unknown but there will definitely be a change in parameters of the system you are drawing the vacuum from. My advice would be to not draw a vacuum by tampering with any system (intake, throttle body etc) but instead use a small electrical powered motor to generate the vacuum to make an independent system. You can attach guage to that small vacuum motor and set it at any suction. Only drawback is you need to hide this small vacuum motor somewhere, it's an extra part but it will not alter any other system of the bike, works independent and has stable control. Hope you understand. Love your content and support to the motorcycle community. Keep up the good work.
Hey Mac - thanks for the input and for the encouragement!
I'll let NASA know.
I read about dry lake racing bikes having a pump fitted probably 20 or so years ago and stating the same hp increases.
Yeah it’s for sure got history in the race world - cars, motorcycles, and more.
Great solution. But I still do not believe in the vacuum requirement for the crankcase. I prefer to vent them all to the atmosphere.
Hey Mustafa - thanks for the feedback! I get that. I believe the primary goal is venting the pressure off, and the vacuum would just be a bonus.
its not a believe or disbelieve thing. it empirically robs power. its dyno prove. keep thinking a scientifically tested solution is snake oil tho! we could use the hp handicap!
Hey Ayla - are you saying crankcase pressure robs power, or vacuum robs power?
@@RonsWorkshop crankcase pressure robs power. in extreme cases it will grenade a motor. venting the crankcase, or using vacuum to even add some negative delta reverses the parasitic loss.
Agreed! Just making sure I understood your original point. Thanks for clarifying :)
You obviously dont have ABS on your bike, that location is where the ABS module sits. Having ridden a harley with no ABS and one with it am a fan of ABS on harleys yank and stomp stops amazingly.
You are correct!
So here’s my question, and I’m not sure you even have an answer. The question is, what would Harley Davidson Have done if the EPA wasn’t telling them what to do??? It looks to me like they would’ve simply installed another hose right beside the transmission vent? Venting to atmosphere coming right out of the transmission cover. They’ve already vented to atmosphere in two other places, the primary and the transmission…. And what if those check valves in the head are simply to keep the oil in the oil pan? What if vacuum isn’t something the engine needs at all? …. All this to try and keep my engine from using a half quart of oil between changes.
Yeah that’s my guess - they’d have vented to atmospheric, which as I understand it, is how the older bikes were handled.
@@RonsWorkshop so if they were simply vented to atmosphere just like the vent on the transmission, it doesn’t appear to me that any kind of check valve is necessary? Just throwing out some thoughts here as I am right in the middle of pulling the top cover off right now and I’m excited.
Yep! Main thing is to vent the pressure. Check valve is a nice bonus.
@@RonsWorkshop well, got her all done and I’m pretty impressed with the way things turned out, I ended up going straight out the top at the fat end of the cover and it’s tucked so neatly behind the exhaust header that you can’t see it unless you’re looking for it. I did some research and I found a guy that makes some pretty awesome oil temp dipsticks… Jes custom accents … so got everything buttoned up, now time for a ride😍
That’s great! Let me know how it you like it.
All this will make one lose their mind. Just do your scheduled maintenance and ride the damn thing.
Well said!
I think you need to stop and go patent this idea.
Race engines have used crank vacuum and vacuum pumps for years, he would need to patent his particular system on the M8 which would cost him some money.