Strange. How can Master Roshi get so strong in the main timeline with "secret training" but cannot get strong enough to defeat the androids after so many years in the future timeline?
@@Mandalore_ultimatebut scaling says that Goku was a bit stronger than 1 android on 1 on 1 combat.Cause Future Gohan says that he wants to be as strong as his Father,and Future 18 said that 17 would lose to Gohan.
If you want an answer besides "because Toriyama needed him to be weaker for one plot, and stronger for another", Roshi hid in a submarine in the Future Timeline and had neither the space, proclivity, or inspiration to train.
For some reason in the end of war arc she managed to damage kaguya and keep up with naruto and sasuke even though while we see naruto and sasuke get stronger through Shippuden we don't see sakura do anything important or get any stronger and yet for some reason she is on the same level as them Which doesn't make any sense@@QaamansLand
@QaamansLand one thing I wanted to say is that the scouters were developed by friezas engineers and his belief was that power levels were inherently fixed and when goku beat frieza he also made the idea of fixed power obsolete, but I miss dragon ball giving us people's power levels. They kinda did it in the buu saga a little with babadi using that word for power levels I can't remember.
might have been for practical reasons. By the time Goku first turns super saiyan his power level is 150 million and it only gets crazier afterwards. It would be a bit silly for them to talk how super saiyan 3 gotenks 300 trillion power level has nothing on super Vegitos 500 decilion. Messy @@AntiWhiteOut
Power Scaling in general killed the concept of being a skilled fighter. At a certain point in Z it became less about who is the better fighter and more about who is getting the bigger power boost.
I liked that in Z, because it actually tells you fundamentally that Power and Skill are interchangeable. And this goes if you played any video game where you out-gear the current content. You can just brute force your way out of a challenge with 0 skill, specially if it goes as absurd as 1 hit k.o. This pisses people off, because they want to hump Skill as the superior of the two, and it kills their reality when in pvp they get a jerk that 1 hit K.O.s them too. To quote Yomi from Yu Yu Hakusho "in a battle where your opponent has more experience OR strength, things will _never_ seem fair" because the imbalance *is* what determines the winner. It is extremely rare to see a dead-even match up. In fact, whenever you see one, it's meant to trigger in your brain that it might be rigged and phony.
@@ElKabong3345 I actually agree with this. Especially since you got it right when people want Skill to always be the superior to Power. I think people have a bias towards one or the other and you can never get a clear cut example in most series that shows both sides being equals. Overall I like seeing both being portrayed well.
Bro. If goku was an average little boy and wasn't five times stronger then a normal child this series would have ended with Bulma doming him in the first issue. Power levels have ALWAYS been a thing in DB. Hell, what skill was taught by master roshi's milk crate training from OG DB?
I just don’t understand why toriyama decided to say that all the Z fighters (except Tien) haven’t been training. It would have been so much easier to accept these absurd power jumps if they said they kept training in their own ways. I mean they all have a responsibility to protect earth so it doesn’t make sense for them to give up. But it’s more frustrating that Tien who does train is disrespected so hard as to be eliminated earlier than those who didn’t.
@@QaamansLand I’m not a fan of power scaling in general as it’s inconsistent/debatable *at best,* and nonsensical bickering that is rendered meaningless when Toriyama does something like Beast Gohan, Golden Frieza (I’m fine w black frieza) or fucking Granolah/Gas 🤦🏻♂️ Roshi is awesome. He’s not typically viewed as a Z-fighter but he’s clearly capable of a lot. Blowing up the moon to revert goku back to his human form is the foundation for DB power scaling. Toriyama probably thought this was a funny, stupid gag but _holy shit did he set the bar high immediately with that one._ By the end of Z I’d honestly put him around Demon King Piccolo level. He doesn’t really continue to grow in Z. His DBS feats are crazy but most of his representation was nostalgia fan service and I’m okay with that. I don’t sincerely think Roshi stood a chance against 99% of fighters in DBS and to call him god-level (I saw a video about this just today) is disingenuous and not following the spirit of Toriyama’s portrayal. He never wanted Roshi to be viewed as some SSB level fighter. The writing gives certain characters a moment to show they they can surpass their limits and do things considered impossible. Roshi’s max power kamehameha was a great throwback to og db and that’s all. This moment doesn’t have any real significance in terms of power scaling. More about giving a character one last moment to shine and him seizing the moment and shining brighter than ever. With regards to his ultra instinct in the manga… Idek what to say. It was a gag but also just a way to remind the audience that roshi is a lifelong martial arts master who would have picked up the tenets of ultra instinct naturally throughout his journey. I don’t look beyond that. Saying he is remotely close to jiren level is just silly. He’s still about the same power level as before to me. I hate applying actual numbers to power scales because they lost most meaning when we found out earthlings knew how to suppress their power levels and raise them too. Vegeta said as much when he was on Namek and criticized Dodoria’s reliance on the device. The fact that we fans choose to apply numbers onto these characters after Vegeta does this makes it all the more ridiculous. DBS recognizes the bar is so high it has no meaning. That’s why trunks can fight against merged zamasu, why gohan can beat kefla or why the universe 6 saiyans are so unreasonably strong without any of the work to justify it. So just watch and have fun. I could have accepted a lot more of the ludicrous power scaling if SSB and SSGod weren’t “godly.” The idea that vegeta and goku have attained godly forms that are stomped by almost every significant fighter from the other universe’s is frustrating. UI/Ego should’ve been the “godly” forms.
DragonBall Super producers in board Room: *Deep Sniff Coke* Okay look stop focusing on story & cohesion & all that BS, what Most of these rabid fans eat up is New Forms & Sparky Sparky Booms, so take those gray model figures of the characters over there & then change the colors, Blue, Green, Purple I dont care. They gonna eat it up and Make us all A LOT of MONEEEEY *coke sniff* ~ Canon Event lmao
this is so true, their forms and names are really uninspired too, not only that but they DONT change the their bodies or anything to keep it cheap to animate
After watching this video, I can safely say that the writers for both the manga and the anime don't give a $hit about power scaling, and anyone trying to make sense of it is just making fools of themselves trying to defend this crap.
Dragon ball z power scaling is not that much better then super. I know it’s probably nostalgia blinding you so I’m just going to start listing of z messed up power scaling. For the the first one we can literally start of in the beginning of z. When raditz was introduced he was stronger then piccolo and goku and was not having much of a hard time in beating them but somehow your gonna tell me a toddle who has never fought in his life and had no training can severely injure him in one attack(but since he’s a prodigy/mutant or hybrid is excusable ). Mind you raditz is a trained warrior race space pirate who fights and conquer for a living since a child,but a toddle nearly one shooting him Is fine because he’s throwing a tantrum but for now we will let that slide for for a bit. Let’s forward to the namek saga with gohan. In the beginning gohan wasn’t even on the level with Dodora. Fast forward he gets his potential unlocked and goes on to fight the ginyu force. Gohan was no match for recoome which seems right so for. But then u jump from gohan not touching reccome to gohan literally able to swap hands with second form frieza. Let me remind u that recome is not even 10% of of first form freiza but your telling me in a span of 24 hours(me being generous) gohan can’t touch recome but can fight second form freiza and damage him. If even you use the classic frieza was holding back its instantly voided with Neil not being able to hurt freiza in the slightest in his first form. Even if I high ball gohan to the power lvl of 35,000 after the boost he would still be weaker than Neil. I think we all forget gohan is literally around 5 years old with most of his experience from surviving in the wilderness no heavy combat experience like raditz are even goku. A toddler was able to the strongest being in the universe and surpass goku in the beginning of z with just emotions alone when in og dragon ball you had to work your ass and train. But somehow gohan being able to fight ssb goku when confirmed he’s been training after the resurrection of freiza is so outlandish and makes no sense in logic and power scaling in the franchise with years of experience with his power and actually grown but nope super started the trend of jumping in power out of no where with no explanation. The concept of getting a enormous power up from emotions is z changing power lvls. Now let’s talk about piccolo. Your telling me somehow piccolo in 2 month can fight second form freiza when the guy couldn’t stand up to nappa in the slightest mind you he was training for one year in preparation for the saiyan. How those piccole in 2 month jump from less them 8,000 to atleast (low-balling here) to 100,000 mind you he wasn’t doing heavy training for a whole like he was for the sayains and was showed to be meditating On king Kai planet but as soon as freiza those in hell and get stronger now it’s another bullshit powerup. With Neil who was 42,000 doesn’t make much sense on how he can shoot to one million +. If you add them together It’s only 142,000. If u multiple that then piccole one shots final form freiza at a 100%. Now let’s get on goku who surprisingly Doesn’t have the biggest power lvl jump here but still quit a big offender. How those goku from 90,000 base start of namek reach over a million with a zenkie boost to rival final form freiza with out headcanon, but as soon as android 17 has been revealed to be training on a island for years and was probably around ssj3 it’s a huge problem that he’s that strong. How those goku big of jump of power did not occur when he gets healed out of the hospital bed and u can’t use the excuse that he was injured more ,when he was even more battle torn from the battle on earth with vegeta. Goku was at least still able to move in namek but after getting injured but with the battle with vegate he couldn’t even move. The zenki boost goku would of have to at-least receive is 20x. If zenki boost for goku is that large then his power lvl arriving to namek after leaving the hospital bed with out training should of been (going to low ball his power lvl to 7,000 before getting heal to prove a point on how massive the namek zenki boost was.)after fighting vegeta at 140,000. Remember 20x is the lowest multiplication. I seriously don’t get what’s the out rage about freiza and 17 being that strong in super I’m totally fine with 17 freiza is definitely questionable but again a toddle with no experience can scare the living day lot of somebody who fights all the time and actually injure him and freiza was originally the most powerful being and was confined to be a mutant. The androids being 99x being more powerful then freiza doesn’t make any sense to begin with from the android saga. Everybody complains about super sayain blue and god being suppressed so easily when super saiyan was easily as irrelevant as soon androids appear(17 & 18). Your telling me dr gero can make beings more powerful then a legendary prophecy that majority of the universe knows about even guru said a super saiyan is unbeatable. The most feared man in the universe was obviously bothered just hearing about it being mentioned. But some dude on earth can make take some regular humans not even martial artists but young adults make the transformation look like child’s play. Let’s talk about the whole tien holding back semi perfect cell. How those that make any sense from a power scaling point of view. Imperfect cell was a moment a go was able to take piccolo strongest attack with no damage who was relative to android 17. Android 17 was able to man Handel tien with no sweat, again he’s a being stronger then super saiyans. Even if I put tien at the lvl of android 19 are 20 there should be no way that can hold back imperfect cell who was destroying beings stronger than super saiyans for breakfast mind u imperfect cell took piccole strongest attack with no damage. But somehow tien was able to stall semi perfect who was stronger then 17 and piccole and then absorbed 17 but piccole strongest attack who was par with 17 doesn’t faze imperfect cell. If tien attack is that powerful he should of one shot nappa and used it against the androids of the first meeting they would of been destroyed are injured. But I guess master roshi using techniques like the mafuba and dodging Jiren(obviously holding back and not fighting him full strength ) with a techniques is where we crossed the line and say power scaling is ruined. I can keep going all the way to the end of the cell saga to the buu saga but I would be up all night. This is me just saying a lot of the problems in the db franchise today has always been provident since z. And super story problem is pretty much similar the same problems of z after the namek saga. Why don’t all put down the nostalgia bong and stop taking a hit of it and actually analyze everything fairly. Or My best ideal is to just enjoy it instead of nitpicking every little thing because that can ruin anything. Like they say comparison is the thief of joy.
@SD-wj9bv Not to the extent of Super. You can still make sense of OG and Z's powerscaling and it is way more consistent to understand than Super by a long shot. Super fans just can't take criticism when it falls short.
@@whatifonepiece I feel like both there Power-scaling is not that good at all and both have very lazy power ups that make no sense. A lot of super problems extends from dbz especially after namek. Once after namek sage the quality of the story drops of. At the end of the day if where going to criticize super might as well include z since of the same problem are present in it especially the starting android saga. That’s why don’t really bother looking to deep into dragon ball. Definitely the ending of og to namek is a masterpiece in spite of some of criticism I have for it. After that in my opinion the story is decent to mid
Tbf Writers as a whole generally don't care about power scaling What matters is whatever point the story is trying to make And as long as it's relatively believable that characters could be at the comparative power level they need to be for a battle, there's no need to get more specific. DB does have a tendency to stretch believability in this regard, esp. with super Saiyan transformations, but it's perfectly clear how the writers put themselves in a position where these power boosts needed to suddenly happen, and after gotenks SSJ is so cheap they sell it at the dollar store so the whole kefla situation doesn't really push sny new boundaries
In all honesty, out all of the non-sayain transformations introduced in Dbs, I personally feel that Piccolo's are the best. Mainly because the power gained from them makes sense since Piccolo is one of the few characters besides Goku and Vegeta to train near daily. Also, since the reason why Shenron gave the power boost to Piccolo pretty fair since, in a way, Piccolo created Shenron, and so therefore Shenron has a lot of respect for Piccolo.
@QaamansLand Roshi's is a close second since his ultra powerful secret training allowed him to casually jump from moon level to being able to casually dodge Jiren in a way that makes total complete sense in the narrative and isn't total nonsense for the sake of plot.
Wasnt it established a VERY long time ago that Shenron is locked to the power level of its creator, and therefor, cant make people stronger? Theres a limit to its power? As the series goes on, all the rules just get retconned. I remember when it was a big deal losing people...because we had 1 wish...and you only had 1 extra chance at life..hell in Dragon Ball, oolong wishing for a pair of panties is still one of the biggest FUCK YOU's in anime, simply cuz he knew how much work went into gathering those dragon balls, only to sideline literally everyone for something he couldve just bought at the store. That was one of those moments where your jaw drops in disbelief. Now a days, we have 3 wishes, unlimited rez's, hell we can even ressurect entire planets and populations if we word the wish right! gross
@@xiphosmaniac that was back when kami was the guardian of earth and the earths dragon and kami was just super weak when dende came to earth in the cell saga dende was much more physically stronger then and more efficient with how he upgraded the earths dragon balls to make shenron become closer in strength to what porunga could do not only that but its not like in dbs super hero that shenron can just immediately unleash piccolos potential dende literally has to upgrade shenron for a second time its a very well animated part of the movie and a lot of attention is actually focused on it and shenron being locked to the power of its creator is still something that hasn't been retconned since again dende is stronger then kami was plus he actually has knowledge of how to make the dragon balls more proficient since he still remembers what namek is like and how things are done there
There was also the case of Vegeta being in SS Blue and not being able to damage base Goku Black, but when Goku Black turn SS Rose he has to resort to doing a cheap stab at Vegeta because Goku Black was being beaten.
To whoever is reading this keep going,you're doing fine! No matter how slow your progress each new week is filled with tiny steps forward. Be proud of yourself you got this!
I love how goku and vegeta are constantly training with gods, learning to use different kis and techniques, unlocking more and more forms Then you have gohan and c17 that "trained" and they somehow keep up😂
Yeah, they really needed proper training explanations (an arc is preferable but what can you do? Even the manga just left Resurrection F to the movie). I'm bored/angry enough to fan fic it below lol. but just to set some ground power levels: - End of Buu arc Goku = 1, for our base comparison - SSJ3 Goku is 400, based on some common fan calcs. - For the sake of Super, let's say God Ki being absorbed gives you a 10x boost to base, and SSG is a 3000 multiplier (close to the diff of SSJ2 and SSJ3 at 8x). So end of Bog Goku is 30,000. Humans: they get trained by someone (can be Whis but why not some other gods/god candidates) to use God Ki. For Krillen/Tien/Yamcha that combo should take their bases to at least 10 (remember, God ki absorbed base Goku is now 100). Roshi would need some extra arc to try and do some mix of restoring some of his prime power and unlocking his potential. There's no Non-BS way to do this huge jump from DB to DBS levels but the result should at least get Roshi to 5 or so. They are behind mostly due to lack of transformations, but that's where phase 2 is: upping the mults on their ki blasts. Once they plateau in physical power levels, they train with their new God ki to infuse with their techniques. So what they lack in raw power they make up for with HUGE multipliers on their refined techniques. As well as their usual battle intellect. Humans always stood up to threats with some ingenuity to make up for lack of power. 17/18: similar to Gamma 1/2. But now we bring Bulma in! A mix of infusing more data, simulation training, and refinement could get these two to say, 10k at base (remember, no transformations. So we're talking stronger than SSJ3 Goku by BoG but weaker than SSG for people without a transformation). They'd be weaker than the Saiyans and not have as strong ki blasts as the humans, but their limitless energy make for great long term fights as ways to close out stuff like ToP (which 17 kind of did already). Piccolo: honestly let's just make the Shenron thing from Super Heroes come much earlier. Except Orange Piccolo doesn't unlock for a long time (maybe around Moro arc?). Then he trains as always. That's really all he needed lol. I think the explanation was fine, just "why did he take so long to think of this?". He can train to like, 1000 with his newfound potential and his "mystic" form can be a similar multiplier to SSG, so he's in the Saiyan league like the old days. Gohan: with piccolo's change; just let them train. Honestly, his mystic form was so early with such an unknown potential that "he trained" can explain a lot. Since he was arguably very close to 1 already, unlike everyone above. He can still also use Zenkais to get any more power needed later. Outside of the humans, they didn't need HUGE explanations. Just something to justify the catchup to thr absurd powercreep without dimishing the power of of the new god powers. I think it's also fine that there's obvious power disparities even with the reworks. Other universes were fine having clear "aces". I'm not sure why they needed to make every seem almost equal to Goku. Huge overcorrection from the Buu saga.
The most retarded thing about super scaling is that, for some reason, characters that are supposed to be close to each other fight the same opponent, but one clearly preforms better than the other. In the broly movie for instance broly starts pressing god vegeta and looks like hes gonna win, but goku interrupts and fights him in fuc#ing base?????, and yet is able to hang for a min while taking shots and reacting to his attacks, even tho he should literally get one shot lol. Goes ss1, lasts a bit, THEN goes god, and preforms much better, holds him in place, and before that has control over the fight until after broly breaks free. This feat alone makes gokus base thousands of times stronger than vegetas, but again, we are told thats not the case, its the most inconsistent thing ever lol
The powerscaling in modern dragon ball is entirely based on making gullible impressionable children (and adults too for that matter) go all "OOOOHHHH... AAAAHHH" as if they're watching fucking fireworks.
While It's true that DBS has awful scaling, DBZ was also horrendous in that regard. The fact that, for example, there's valid arguments for Goten, not gotenks, JUST GOTEN > piccolo during the buu saga, should be enough evidence.
I actually really like how the weaker fighters’ fighting styles are more technique-based rather than power. Like krillin always having destructo disk & solar flare up his sleeve, Roshi using the evil containment wave, etc. While goku and Vegeta basically just use elevated speed and strength by other names now
Right that is cool, but they cannot just retcon and ignore the insane power ups that super saying, and god super sayinn gives to goku, and vegeta. Its not like they do not have there own fighter techniques as well. especially goku, who has been fighting like that since a kid in og dragon ball. I think it is cooler to focus on tech rather than big number blast man wins, both do have moments and are cool, but if all the fights are just big number blast win, its boring. They should have given all the z fighers training to learn the kai oh ken, which would have let them beliveable somewhat close the power gap.
I feel like ToP in particular can't be used for the power scaling debates, because of the no-killing rule. Which means that any fighter must adjust their own power level to roughly match that of their opponent, maybe like twice as strong is the most they can use in order to ensure they do not accidentally kill the person they are fighting, making ToP more of a showcase of skill rather than raw power. Now, this does have obvious problems, like for example people like Hit - who do not have control over their power level. And especially Mafuba, I do not see why the technique would care about how much power the target is currently using, rather than what amount of power they have in total. But yeah ToP is supposedly working under different rules than most of the fights in order to make it work as a narrative and not just be Jiren blowing up the entire arena after the fight starts ^^'
ngl this could work if there were an instance of fighters dying at the start due to a huge power imbalance so some of the stronger fighters get disqualified and everyone else realizes they need to hold back
Where Dragon Ball Z killed the power scaling was when they had Friezas power be more than 1 million and had him at 120,000,000 im his final form maxed out. Once the numbers got outrageous Toriyama just said screw the numbers. I have an excel sheet and video idea of how to fix the power scaling for the Frieza Arc
"For more OG Dragon Ball fans that want to see more serious fights, Gotenks doesn't really bring the best out of this" If you actually mean the original Dragon Ball then I don't understand this reasoning. Dragon Ball had a lot of comedic or lighthearted moments during some of the biggest fights. If you mean DBZ, things did get a lot more serious there, for the most part. I understand more, but there were still silly comedic frames, gags and jokes thrown in. I'm not trying to gatekeep, and I'm not saying fans need to like Gotenks to be a fan, but if someone doesn't like these moments then I don't really see that as being a fan of "OG Dragon Ball", because comedy and gags are ever present in Dragon Ball.
Blud really said "for more OG Dragon Ball fans that watched Krillin defeating Bacteria with toilet humor, Gotenks doesn't really bring the best our of it" and tougth he made a point xd This guy simply never watched DB and it shows over and over again in this video
I honestly hate power scaling cause it leaves no room for possibilities. There's no situation where a character beats a stronger character by having a good day or stride. Maybe a character has a more aggressive battle style which doesn't work as well against a defensive style. So the character changes and has the advantage. It always feels like oh this character was an arc after so it's automatically stronger....like that's lazy writing.
@@holdmyown06 actually Dragon Ball had a solution for that. Remember when Trunks was SSj Grade 3. Cell says "you're stronger ...but you can't win!" Goku explained this to Gohan strength great but speed and energy consumption takes it's toll. So they tried a different approach which is respiratory training in maintaining a weaker form. For endurance.
@@holdmyown06 Goku says to Raditz in ep 3 "just cause you're stronger doesn't mean you can win!" Cause Piccolo and Goku had coordinated attacks and made a plan (Full Nelson Special Beam Cannon) or when Goku, Gohan, and Krillin worked together to nail Vegeta with the Spirit Bomb. Vegeta was stronger clearly, but they used Teamwork.
Yes that's the problem with having characters jump 10x or 100x or 1000x in power. It's a problem with dragonball's world building. The completely linear power system with massive jumps in power, leaves no room for possibilities, variance, creativity. The power system established by DB since the 90's, has been bad since the 90's. Maybe other shows are more for you and me?
Truthfully, “power scaling” was already on the rocks by the namek saga at the very least, and the Buu arc just cemented this. The Buu arc specifically having most of if not all of Super’s power scaling shenanigans but is readily given the green light by fans because of its seniority and legacy. On the aside, Super doesn’t get enough (if any) due praise for its focus on skill in fights. Goku changing the angle of his punch against Beerus to negate some of the effects and neutralizing them despite being weaker than Beerus is a great example of this. Goku watching for Hit’s movements and targeting his time cage’s activation window was a smart way to get around a cheesey ability with just pure martial intuition. Goku destroying Jiren’s footing instead of beating him head on or using ki mines to slow his advance was also quite cool. I do think DBS sort of inherited a lot of its power scale wonkiness from the Buu saga and was forced to work *around* it for the sake of the narrative rather than appeasing geeks; but I do appreciate the times where it’s not just punchy punchy as I do think Z did lose that element in translation along the road. Another point of praise is the usage of transformations as “stacks” as opposed to something like SSJ2 or 3 where it’s just “super saiyan but more”, as the mixing of God and Blue is always fun to see in both the anime and manga and shows a minmaxing of the two forms. In the Granolah saga Goku mixes some of Ultra Instinct with SSGSS to hide his vitals and to become harder to detect. Again in the Granolah arc a clear separation is given between Gas’ quick obtaining of instant transmission being more unpolished and Goku had years of actual experience on him with the move, being far more efficient with it. Goku vs Kale/Caulifa also showed this experience gap with the two not using their forms to their full potential and being endlessly sloppy with their coordination and attacks. Goku was fatigued and was pretty much *training* them during that bout which was cool. This video kind of painted Caulifa as obtaining SSJ then soloing the cast or something when that just wasn’t the case at all.
@@shido_rimru_ and characters like Gotenks could scream tears and rifts in space-time in the time chamber lol, but Caulifla getting SSJ is too much for people to handle lmao.
@@frostyfrenchtoast I think people would've been fine with Caullifla being a Super Saiyan if she'd just BEEN one in the first place before she was introduced. It's the series' own fault for having them learn that form in a literal day when no one asked it to.
I think Super still deserves a lot of flack for taking the Buu Saga's power scaling issues and making them infinitely worse. They didn't even TRY to explain gaps that were more egregious than ever. They gave Goku and Vegeta god tier universe destroying power in base, and forgot that half the time when they fought other characters. It's a goddamn disaster. With that said, I agree with you that it deserves credit for at least trying to bring skill and technique into fights. It did a lot more of that than a lot of Z, frankly. it's a shame its production issues, horrid characterization issues, and power scaling obscured that honest effort.
@@ganoninthepit I legit don’t think it matters. Goten and Trunks learned it in a very similar span of time as children, and Caulifla was already said to be a combat prodigy *while* being a different type of Saiyan entirely. And even beyond that, her SSJ was particularly impressive or powerful compared to the main cast’s anyways, so it’s not that consequential. The forms are instead used as story elements particularly with Kale, so I don’t have a problem with it. Again, laughingstock sorta acts like Caulifla is some overpowered character that was granted SSJ only because she’s a female character, despite the fact that she was getting jobbed by a fatigued SSJ Goku not even taking the battle seriously and she was fighting with Kale to boot lol. This wasn’t actually mentioned by them though lol.
Wait, I thought everyone knew this back in DBZ? Super didn't kill it, Toriyama killed it decades ago. If anything, the Buu Saga should've proved this to everyone. How many weird situations with power scaling & Buu variations did we get? We had to get weird explainations like "SSJ3 Goku was just trying to stall for time against fat Buu, not trying to win!" and "Kid Buu is just the mOsT dAnGeRoUs (whatever that means) not the strongest!" to explain why base/SSJ Goku could keep up with & defeat him. Buu separating from himself, then reabsorbing himself to get stronger, Gohan getting a power up from just dicking around with the Supreme Kai for dozens of episodes - only to dominate & lose anyway, all the time spent on fusion power ups - only for them to not matter at all & still just wrap up with the same Goku spirit bomb stuff... Power scaling & ass pull power ups has been a DB thing for along time now.
Being the most dangerous meant having no self control and just destroying everything to his heart's desire The other Buus were stronger (except fat buu and evil buu) but less unhinged, you could actually TALK to them
Yeah but most people love DBZ (I say Z because a lot haven't even read or watched DB) and trash on Super. Then, obviously, they will say it's because of Super.
I mean theres a pretty big difference from the Brain rot in DBS that actually has no defense because of previous arcs and well established characters and DBZ making rules for transformations and characters we dont know anything about yet.
Dbz was fairly consistent until the boo arc and even still there was nothing too crazy you could still use logic to explain most things you saw. The thing with super is the scaling is so shit you can take almost nothing seriously. From the start dbs already breaks itself by saying Goku absorbed the power of ssjg in his base. Now because of this everything they face in super is universal+ level. Cabba who has no fear to put him even at Dabura level has ssjg level power. Hit is somehow ssjg level. Everyone has god power in dbs to the point where it doesn’t make sense. Even in the broly movie (which is the best part of super easily) has scaling issues. I get broly is the legendary super saiyan but he shouldn’t be able to hang with ssjb goku at all even in his own ssj state. Since they made goku and vegeta so strong this means they have to make everyone they face that strong as well and it doesn’t help that the writing sucks.
This is why I like to emphasize a cool spectacle and story over number based power values when I write. It's just way more fun. As long as it makes sense for the character and is thesable, who cares. Just have fun. This goes doubly for the villains I write. A cool visual spectacle and a intimidating but logical villain can be one of the most memorable characters.
I've always believed power scaling stopped making sense around the buu saga. Only super took that non-sensical aspect and cranked it up to 11. Really, I'd be more interested if there was some cosmic explanation for the sudden massive power jumps, sort of like the energies of the universe shifting or enriching over time and thus allowing living being to ascend more quickly than they could have years before. But then that would probably result in an eventual singularity or something where somebody gets too powerful and the cosmic forces of the universe become oversaturated and eat through the fabric of existence like too much ink on paper; caused by U7's denizens never-ending quest for power.... where was I going with this again?
@@QaamansLandhas been alive for centuries and has showed techniques can give a slight edge in combat it’s not like he straight up whoop jiren juss had a moment and I can say he deserves it bc it probably some of them characters last time fighting
It’s the classic DB problem. I ran into someone easily more powerful than me but for some reason despite being so very easily stronger than me they didn’t kill me outright? So now all I need do is get more powerful and there’s so many ways I can do this it’s multiple choice really. So I get more powerful and for some that option seems limitless I trounce the person who very recently was stomping me into a mud puddle. Rinse and repeat.
I love how in none of these videos anyone ever assumes that Beerus is also getting stronger along side the main cast, by being trained by the guy who';s job is to train gods of Destruction, Whis.
Here's a reminder that the numerical power levels were always bullshit. Every single person in lore that relies on those numbers alone gets their asses kicked hard.
Half of the Namek saga is about how humans with their fancy martial arts can pull attacks 2 orders of magnitude stronger than their "resting" power level. Krillin almost killed Frieza.
Yeah, Supers problem is how large the leaps and power got over the course the Z onward. It wasn't too bad in DB with smaller leaps, you could buy that one of the fighters could catch up through training. But once Z came around, things got wildly out of control. With the Namek Saga being the worst it. Its unfortunately not possible to tell the stories toriyama wanted to tell without breaking power scaling. Because SSJ exists, and new villains have to be scaled with it in mind. Which makes it impossible to have any of the non saiyan fighters fight alongside goku and actually be relevant. And that's just sad, when you can't tell meaningful stories with your ensemble cast. Because they cannot nuke a universe. If you ignore the power scaling issues, some of the super arcs are decent. I'm not sure how you could make the ideas of Super work while respecting power scaling without nerfing or cutting the god forms they wanted to market so badly.
I really do like the character stories going on in DBS. Vegeta and Goku's one-upsmanship, and different fighting styles, Frieza becoming the new 'Vegeta' of the series, Piccolo becoming relevant again, etc. The problem I have is the power system underpinning all of these stories, is a complete mess and gets in the way of itself. You basically cannot figure out how much stronger the characters are now, compared to when they were in DBZ. It's impossible to make the comparison. So in order to enjoy modern DB, you basically just have to admit to yourself that the power levels are a mistake and you must ignore them. Which basically invalidates like a quarter of the dialogue of that part of the series. In a lot of ways, DBS may actually be a better series than DBZ because more people have relevance and character arcs. But it doesn't make sense. The problem is it clashes with everything established up until DBS.
I have to disagree with you saying “dbs might be better than dbz” yes ultimately goku or vegeta are usually the ones to defeat the main villains dbz s used a lot of its characters. In the saiyan saga piccolo, gohan, goku, and even killin got a little shine. In namek bulma, gohan, piccolo, vegeta, krillin, Nail. Cell saga, Trunks, vegeta, Gohan, Tien, Piccolo. Boo saga, vegeta, gohan, goten and trunks, fycking Mr Satan ☠️. People helped in original Z and the ways they helped made way more sense than the way characters get mysterious power ups in Super.
Part of the problem was I think doubling down on the leaps. SSJ Goku vs Frieza ok then the androids are killing SSJs and Cell is massively stronger then Buu is stronger again with SSJ 2 and 3 turning up. If you'd just stayed with SSJ and had it be an increase rather than a multiplier so 10,000 base to SSJ is 150 . . . 1000 and 80,000 base to ssj is 150 . . . 80,000. You could still have the others contribute. Just introduce fusion so you have Kriltien and Yamtzu able to stand alongside the SSJ's thanks to this technique Goku learnt on Yadrat. Then you have the androids show up able to beat the SSJ's and Cell gets seventeen by sneaking which takes Imperfect cell to matching the andoirds then he takes 18 and is now twice as strong. Ok you've made SSJ's and fused humans obsolete and Gohan takes him out as per the storyline only what makes Gohan different to the other Saiyans why he had his potential unlocked by Guru he just had to let it go. Now we had forward to the Buu saga with Vegeta and Goku training furiously to keep up with Gohan who has let himself go rather than letting his power go. So you can drop Dabura to say 1, 1.5 times SSJ without potential unlocked and Gohan is no longer strong enough to win easily. This means Fat Buu can be on par with Cell and still be a huge threat. Vegito can match him, fat and thin Buu's half their power, Super Buu is on par with original Fat Buu but then grabs SSJ Gotenks and Piccolo etc. Now Vegitto knowing his power isn't enough to beat super buu lets himself be aborbed and rescues the others resulting in Kid Buu who is half the power level of original Fat Buu and thus can be taken by a SSJ Goku or Vegeta if they weren't so tired Goku needs a spirit bomb for the boost to fully destroy Kid Buu. Supersaiyan blue should be tossed in the trash and just keep super saiyan god. A form that puts Goku and Vegeta at around Cell levels and you can use God Ki or SSJ transformation not both. Zamussu? On part with SSG Goku and Vegeta, the tournament of power members SSG or Cell level etc. Basically if you just keep SSJ as the only form and tone down the jumps after Frieza you can make it work. Especially if you include minions Krillin doesn't need to be strong enough to beat revived Frieza just to deal with one of his lieutenants like the old Ginyu force or Zarbon.
If the ToP was, say a few months down the road and everybody had time to train, then I could at least sort of accept some of the huge gains, especially with the time chamber. It would have also given the U6 Saiyans time to learn and perfect SSJ, maybe even explore forms beyond it.
They start to train after golden frieza saga if toriyama said they been trained, I think after Golden frieza saga arc, Because they know the danger when goku and vegeta is not in earth to save them.
Honestly by Super and the buu saga’s logic, you can train for just a few hours W/OUT the time chamber or anything like that, and boom, you have now unlocked SSJ, without any sort of tramatic event or rage boost or anything like that.
Im sorry but as far as im concerned the second Goku obtained God Ki and instantly surpassed Super Vegito in terms of power any idea of ANYONE without God ki catching up within their lifetime should be literally impossible without Magic of some kind being involved. The fact every Saiyan transformation is some multiplier of 50x or better than their base form basically invalidates any argument one could make in favor of logical and reasonable training any other race in DB could do. Especially given they've all had 20 years and only recently in the story are they getting 100s of times stronger in a super short amount of time comparatively, itd be more believable with God magic or the Dragon Balls or some kind of Deus Ex Machina item helping them get stronger: but instead we are told they just do basic asf training and somehow immediately catch up to not only SS-SS3 levels of power but to forms that are several times those multipliers as well
Toriyama isn't writing any of this. He's just giving them a rubber stamp so they can CLAIM he has given his approval. What part of that disasterous ass pull called the gokublack arc(aka the character assassination of future trunks) felt like a toriyama story? Fucks sake it was supposed to be future Goten but surprise surprise they made it a GOKU story and managed to permanently ruin future trunks forever and destroy DB time mechanics forever so they can force a terrible as fuck GOKU AM GREET narrative that just...ruins it for everyone.
@@QaamansLand Nah, his editors that oversaw his work and would force him to make certain changes (the most famous one being the changes they forced him to make in the Android Saga). You could see the difference in the Buu Saga and how unfocused it was; showing that Toriyama is one of those artists that thrives when being guided by pressure and artistic limitations.
@@incognit01233 The goku black arc pissed me off like Future Trunks was a badass and they made him look useless like wtf. Also All goku black was usefull for were those "Boys like pink when it comes to..." edits
Great video, While I completely agree with the issue of power scaling( especially in the newer stuff)... I think the whole point of Roshi is his potential is probably one of the highest in the cast, But he dosent train super hard because he invented the Hermit turtle way, so he likes to take life and enjoy it to its fullest and anything ( other than a saiyan) wouldn't enjoy training super hard all the time... Rember "Work hard, study well, and eat and sleep plenty! That is the Turtle Hermit way!" longevity is also a trait of turtles
Yeah there is a huge lack of comparative power scaling between characters in DBS... basically all we can do in DBS is compare character feats which get convoluted without any direct comparisons (like Dabura being compared to Cell in DBZ)
Weirdly I'd be okay with this even if it is nonsensical, mostly because Roshi is one of my favorite fighters in the show, due has loads of cool techniques and he's pretty clever too.
Roshi should have been Dragonball fanservice. He should have brought back some goated abilities like Bending Kamehameha, Solar Flare, and Mafuba in creative ways to overcome stronger opponents. Instead they treat him like Goku; "Just have him yell and power up and beam struggle and the fans won't care." Dragonball Super is WWE of anime; "Don't think, just consume product."
Powerlevels never made any sense. Frieza the emperor of the universe - the monster who slaughtered millions - is weaker than some teenage cyborg some scientist on earth assembled
This video just made me realize that the whole training for the androids thing makes no sense. When Trunks first came, he and Goku were around the same level… but after 3 years of training, they are still around the same level? Trunks didn’t train for 3 years, he just went back to his time, and then entered 3 years into the future in his Time Machine. This basically implies that Goku really didn’t get much stronger at all, the only ones who really got much stronger was Piccolo and maybe Gohan, apparently Vegeta didn’t even get much stronger since he needed Super Saiyan to beat the androids, yet Piccolo was strong enough to take on the androids with his own power… so much nonsensical stuff in this arc lol.
I always saw the per-tournament spar with Goku and Krillin as Goku helping prepare Krillin for the potential power of the opponents. SSJB has better Ki control so it would also arguably be easier for Goku to not accidentally use more power than Krillin could handle.
Or at least when Roshi commentet in the 22. Tournament how much stronger the Kikoho is than the Kamehameha after he blew up the Ring because apperently Tournament Ring
That's like saying Dragon Ball power scaling stopped making sense because kid Goku broke the manga panel.... Dragon Ball at the time didn't have any rules when it comes to power scaling....It was a gag manga at the time.
@@deonterector The Moon Feat was how Roshi defeated Oozaru Goku in the 21. Tournament. Its not just a random event that can easily be dismissed as just a gag.
Yeah original Dragon Ball really fucks up power scaling. It even has a faster-than-light feat from kid Goku, which to me says we shouldn't take it too seriously.
Broly himself is 1 of the biggest ass pulls In no way shape or form should he EVER BE anywhere CLOSE in power to Goku and Vegeta Countless battles, training with literal Gods and Angels Absorbing and mastering God Ki Techniques mastered Battle strategies mastered All thrown out the window Legendary or not that was the biggest middle finger to everything Goku and Vegeta had done in the series At least Gohan trained and fought side by side with some of the best warriors ever and his potential was teased from day 1 His beast form was ass pull but it still made more sense than Broly and Frieza in my opinion
@@nirogalactoid8398yeah, a mutant. Which Frieza is as well. So assuming they naturally just have far more potential then the average being of their race
Stuff like this always just reminds me of the interview with Toriyama when dbz was first airing in english, about how he introduced scouters to the series to try and point out how dumb he thought specific power scaling is and regretted how much it backfired
@@Penguin1400 first of all she is an alien monkey second she is a cartoon character drawn in a style where everybody looks and acts the exact same from ages 13-1000 and finally im pretty sure if she didnt consent you would be reduced to atoms so she can probly handle herself
So, I'll say it once, and I'll say it a hundred times. I'd rather have more characters that are able to participate in a meaningful way than power scaling that makes sense. Obviously, if I could have both, I would want both, but I've ALWAYS felt like it was a huge weakness in Dragon Ball's writing that they had all these interesting secondary protagonists and a huge cast of characters, but functionally none of them mattered besides Goku.
Which is fine to want but pre-established characters weve already seen train the entire story make no sense to ever be relavent again. Theres a reason Krillin, 18, 17, Yamcha, Roshi and Tien took a massive step back from the story in the Buu saga, and they shouldve stayed in the back to make way for other new characters
Honestly I'm just sick of the transformations and flashy lasers, I wanna see more techniques like the Kaioken or literally anything involving actual martial arts.
super was doomed from the start. there was no feasible way to realistically catch up any non saiyan to a post BoG Goku. and instead of acknowledging that and focusing on the saiyans, they gave everyone off screen power ups so that people wouldn’t complain about “the goku and vegeta show” (which is extremely dumb). and this doesn’t just apply to the Z fighters. besides hit whos 1000 years old, there’s no feasibly reason to believe that anybody in all the universes could even come close to Goku and Vegeta without God Ki or some kind of divine training. frost, dyspo, U7 saiyans, the bergamo and friends. all of these jobbers shouldn’t even be close to a post BoG Goku’s BASE FORM, especially without a transformation
@@kaienglish271The problem with that tho is they dont give us a backstory that supports them having a life of struggle where they get said power they just are and we're supposed to just accept that.
@@cooper2211 why would they need a life of struggle to show how they are strong? You’re asking them to show us every character who is strong with a backstory on how they got strong. This is what you’ve got to understand just because we see Vegeta, Goku , Piccolo and etc struggle to get stronger don’t apply that to other Universes they are completely different to our Universe 7
@kaienglish271 Why wouldn't it be good to show HOW characters we've never seen before got to the strength they are other just taking it at face value because they need to be some "tension" on how goku and vegeta can overcome said foe(s) or at the very least give a plausible reason characters are as strong as they are. A good example is Hit a assassin that has lived for hundreds of years where obviously he'll have gained immense experience and strength during that time to get where he is, but everyone that is just suspend disbelief and roll with it.
A lot of people put heat on goku using his transformations against the weaker fighters he was recruiting for the T.O.P but I think it wasn't to say they were all god level or equal to blue, but for goku to show his teammates that these would be the level of some of the people they would have to stand off against, Its pretty solid evidence that goku is more or so flexing these transformations than rather actually using them at the power we typically associate these transformations with with the exception of 17, I think he made this very clear when gohan basically had to beg him to use his max power and got one-shot which makes sense. Not that he needed to go full power to do this.
I can't STAND when power scalers say "relative to" you mean "relatively equal to." "Relative to" doesn't mean anything other than they're being compared.
i think the problem is that dragon ball has NEVER been good about power scaling because it has always just been about who hits hardest and moves fastest which leads to uninteresting fights. at this point trying to think about power scaling in any media is just stupid and should barely factor into entertainment value, especially if you treat it like a science
I don't think it's stupid to care about power scaling, when the original series spent, what, 20 volumes telling us that power scaling was all that mattered? Sure, power scaling is linear and uninteresting. But it's all we had for all of that time. This isn't a problem with the fans, this is a problem with the series. And when DBS goes and tries to shove power scaling under the carpet, I don't think that really fixes the problem. As that effectively shoves all those years of narrative under the carpet too. It's kind of hard to expect the fanbase to make that kind of transition. For some, it's impossible. We're just too used to how things used to work.
Scaling matters in every series because how close a fight is scaling wise basically determines a match up youd actually wanna see. Gogeta and Vegito have no real reason to actually fight, but its one of the most heavily debated fights in DB. Same with Cell vs Dabura and Jiren vs Broly. Scaling also helps raise the stakes in the series. If Madara didnt scale above the entire Allied Shinobi Forces, nobody would be terrified of him nor would his resurrection be considered threatening. But the fact we know he is above the Kage, solo stomps the Shinobi Forces as well as Naruto and Sasuke and then on top of that obtaining 10 Tails, the stakes couldnt have possibly been made higher during the War Arc and thats thanks to Scaling
would you be interested in making an in-depth what if video about the entire bobobo cast vs the entire dragon ball cast? how individual characters would be against each other. both manga and anime? been enjoying your videos.
To be fair Piccolos orange form makes sense, its heavily implied he got the power of king Piccolo added to him making him fully complete. Basically hes a Super Namkeian
I mean, King Piccolo, someone who isnt even half the strength of Raditz making Piccolo TUI Goku or UE Vegeta level makes no sense lol. The actual reason is the Dragon Balls and Shenron and his inner potential, which still isnt great but it makes WAY more sense than that
I feel like all the shortcuts Dragon Ball takes now with powering up characters, just makes the story worse because it essentially robs them of the journey.
Nowadays they dont even introduce unique shortcuts, in Z you had stuff like Namekian Fusion, the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, or Gravity Training, Nowadays they just do basic asf training in a grassy wasteland and SOMEHOW obtain 100x or more strength from it in an absurdly short amount of time
Super was a mess. Goku and Vegeta just get stupidly strong but don't really learn or do anything new. All these random Sayians going super with minimal effort. It was supposed to be legendary but how easily everyone is going super makes it seem like all people needed was a bad day at work to trigger it.
Power will always be irrevocably broken. Before Raditz arrived, characters could already destroy the moon. Where do you go from there when you need to animate a fight? Like, moon breaking energy can't scratch Nappa, but you want me to belive that this punch that does cause damage to him doesn't immediately vaporize the entire earth? Yeah, the punch is connecting with Nappa, not the ground, but the ground is right the heck there and we're dealing with thousands of times more energy than it takes to blow up the moon. Then we get quadrillions upon quadrillions upon quadrillions of times stronger when Super rolls around, and you want me to accept that these punches don't instantly create a black hole the size of several galaxies?! And the animations we see on screen are no different visually than what we had at the beginning of Namek. Don't get me wrong. It's all a ton of fun and I love it. But it can't possibly make a lick of narrative sense.
Agreed. I really like Dragonball back in the day, but I have no interest to revisit the series because the mechanics of the world just make little sense to me and I know just how absurd it gets. Energy is energy and bad guys should really not hold back when they aim to kill, so where does all that extra energy go for extra attacks? Are the good guys just that proficient with Ki control that they can neutralize the local effects on the world? It's interesting to listen to people talk about these shows, but I find stories with more limited and interesting power systems entertaining.
Here's something to think about: During the Cell saga, Cell got so desperate he decided to blow himself up to destroy Earth and Goku had to teleport him to Kai's planet to avoid that. During the Buu saga, Vegeta blew himself up to kill Majin Buu. It didn't work, but what matters is that even back in the Saiyan saga, Vegeta was able to blow up Earth with a power level of just 18000, and here he's supposed to have a power level in the billions. And yet, despite putting all his power into this suicide attack, the explosion he causes from blowing himself up -- despite him being stronger than Cell at that point -- is no bigger than when Nappa nuked some cities for fun. In fact, Majin Buu does the same thing later on by blowing himself up and it only producers a meager mushroom cloud...and later on it's revealed Buu can just casually destroy entire planets with ordinary ki blasts that take zero effort or charge up. The average DBZ fan's response to glaring inonsistency? Ki control. You can't argue with idiots.
The magic wand that solves all of DragonBall's problems. Power capable of vaporizing a moon but that blast hits the Earth? Ki control. Physical attacks that should have enough kinetic energy to trash a continient when they clash? Ki control. I would make more sense if the Universal+ level characters could just force another character into a temporary universe so they could just wreck that and not have the DragonBall's just reset battle damage.
Also krillin isn’t base Goku level lol, Goku was toying with him the entire fight, remember when Goku had to where the turtle outfit and couldn’t even transform and still bodied krillin? And was holding back significantly
Honestly the power scaling stopped mattering during the end of the Frieza arc. I appreciate that it tried a bit during the Android and Cell saga though. The idea being mastering super saiyan to conserve energy was great! It also setup it's own consistency for Gohan going SS2 who was inherently special for his mixed blood and from the way he was raised by Chi-Chi to be peaceful. It made perfect sense that Gohan was the only Saiyan that could ever possibly reach the realm of SS2! Then you know; Buu saga and SS2 just being another capstone for Goku/Vegeta despite ones personality being the deciding factor for it. Then SS3 existing for no reason! To this day, I still think that the movie "Battle of the Gods" should have had Trunks and Goten as the disciples of Beerus and Whis while Goku and Vegeta worked for the Kais in the afterlife. (The same way they did against when facing off against Janemba.) I have a personal headcanon that the ToP arc would have had Goku and Vegeta return with several "old enemies" they defeated in the afterlife that would have scaled just fine.
All in a nutshell, in the beginning for Earthlings, powers were sensed and was mastered without technology until the death of Radditz. The tool to read power scales by scouters was just introduced after Bulma snagged Radditz scouter and modified it. Before that, they could always feel how big or small the power was. As time progressed with everyone getting stronger, the use of the technology was obsolete and could not measure the true power level my numeric means as even Bibadi's doohickey couldn't read the complete and rising powers of fighters as he mentioned they was hiding. In a way, I believe that technology had its limits and had not place in Dragon Ball after the Frieza Saga.
I always find it amazing how when people have issues with writing or story progression the answer is always “Power Scaling Is Cringe”. It’s just lazy writing 9/10 times imo.
Let’s be real. Power scaling in DBZ was inconsistent at best during frieza saga and the numbers had no meaning once perfect cell arrived. The writer basically abandoned the idea of numerical power levels before then and it’s fans/shueisha giving numbers by this point.
I will say just if you didn’t notice Goku going Blue against Krillin was him testing him to see how he would handle that sort of pressure and intensity because in the tournament there would be multiple people on SSB level. That why we see Krillin shaking at first but then calms himself down to face SSB Goku. SSB also offers extreme Ki control so he could’ve been SSJ2 level for all we know
The problem with this it addresses like a lot of these problems originated in super were in fact z had many problems like this way before super. It would of been better if the bud was about db bad power scaling over the years
@@SD-wj9bv tbh z had the problems but it was lest obvious. If goku is in ssj2 vs ssj3, we know that he is either restraining himself or actually going all out. Ssb, that level of power decides what it wants to be. Z was simple but still logical and easy to follow. With some suspension of disbelief. At most the problems really became noticeable in buu arc.
@@terrakage4462 I really think that’s all it is. Z was just easier to understand power wise. When in Super they introduced multiple ways of someone getting stronger even in a weaker form. What I think most ppl just don’t understand
@@terrakage4462 I’m just saying z was no where near perfect in the power scaling department and I definitely agree dragon ball super has the worst scaling when it comes to the anime. It’s just more noticeable in super, but the main point is the complaints about characters shouldn’t be able to fight this one guy and then all of sudden get substantial power boost is not a new concept to the story. Example in the anime everybody was complaining that future trunks was able to fight goku black and called it shit power scaling, but in z u had gohan who was no match for recoom who isn’t even 10% of first form freiza but in a couple of hours out of nowhere he can damage second form freiza when Neil couldn’t even put a scratch on this guy in he’s first form and may I remind u Neil was stronger than gohan that fought recom
Frezia gaining strength off just mental image training make sense for the fact frezia has a number of psychic abilities and is probably unconsciously or consciously boosting himself thru his psychic abilities kind of like mob psycho or the myriad of other esper type fighters we see in anime.
Roshi has more potential than Frieza gohan and broly combined
Nah I HAVE more power than Goku, Broly, Vegeta and Grand priest combined
He was Reverse Searing and then deep frying Jiren.
@@blueflare4139 That is such a random comment I can't lie
Ultra Instinct Master Roshi dodging Jiren’s attacks might be the worst writing in the series lol
@@Minizu4Nah he's stronger than them all but i'm stronger than xeno goku ssj4
Strange. How can Master Roshi get so strong in the main timeline with "secret training" but cannot get strong enough to defeat the androids after so many years in the future timeline?
Everyone in the future timeline but Future Trunks is greatly underpowered
He must've forgor 💀
@@Mandalore_ultimatebut scaling says that Goku was a bit stronger than 1 android on 1 on 1 combat.Cause Future Gohan says that he wants to be as strong as his Father,and Future 18 said that 17 would lose to Gohan.
@@supersaiyan9949What are you referring to? You are mixing manga and anime facts
If you want an answer besides "because Toriyama needed him to be weaker for one plot, and stronger for another", Roshi hid in a submarine in the Future Timeline and had neither the space, proclivity, or inspiration to train.
Does anyone else think the ToP would’ve made WAYY more sense if they just said Buu still counted as a Kai and couldn’t participate?
but that would be like foreshadowing the moro arc... dragonball doesn't foreshadow in its storytelling that's silly 😅
Yes it would and I bet 10 million Zeni that they forgot that he had TWO Kais fused into him not just one
@@animegematria Bro. No one fucking cares about the moro arc. It's a disaster of poor planning and ignorance of DB lore and mechanics.
@@animegematrianot really, because it was already established in the buu saga that buu absorbed the kai that resulted in him becoming fat buu.
what plot point in the moro arc? @@kryptoskillet1131
this like having sakura be able to keep up with naruto and sasuke for the plot
Explanation?
For some reason in the end of war arc she managed to damage kaguya and keep up with naruto and sasuke even though while we see naruto and sasuke get stronger through Shippuden we don't see sakura do anything important or get any stronger and yet for some reason she is on the same level as them Which doesn't make any sense@@QaamansLand
It’s like having Sasuke and Naruto be able to keep up with madara for the plot
@QaamansLand one thing I wanted to say is that the scouters were developed by friezas engineers and his belief was that power levels were inherently fixed and when goku beat frieza he also made the idea of fixed power obsolete, but I miss dragon ball giving us people's power levels. They kinda did it in the buu saga a little with babadi using that word for power levels I can't remember.
might have been for practical reasons. By the time Goku first turns super saiyan his power level is 150 million and it only gets crazier afterwards.
It would be a bit silly for them to talk how super saiyan 3 gotenks 300 trillion power level has nothing on super Vegitos 500 decilion. Messy
@@AntiWhiteOut
Power Scaling in general killed the concept of being a skilled fighter. At a certain point in Z it became less about who is the better fighter and more about who is getting the bigger power boost.
I liked that in Z, because it actually tells you fundamentally that Power and Skill are interchangeable.
And this goes if you played any video game where you out-gear the current content.
You can just brute force your way out of a challenge with 0 skill, specially if it goes as absurd as 1 hit k.o.
This pisses people off, because they want to hump Skill as the superior of the two, and it kills their reality when in pvp they get a jerk that 1 hit K.O.s them too.
To quote Yomi from Yu Yu Hakusho "in a battle where your opponent has more experience OR strength, things will _never_ seem fair" because the imbalance *is* what determines the winner.
It is extremely rare to see a dead-even match up. In fact, whenever you see one, it's meant to trigger in your brain that it might be rigged and phony.
@@ElKabong3345 I actually agree with this. Especially since you got it right when people want Skill to always be the superior to Power. I think people have a bias towards one or the other and you can never get a clear cut example in most series that shows both sides being equals. Overall I like seeing both being portrayed well.
Bro. If goku was an average little boy and wasn't five times stronger then a normal child this series would have ended with Bulma doming him in the first issue.
Power levels have ALWAYS been a thing in DB. Hell, what skill was taught by master roshi's milk crate training from OG DB?
I mean super literally gives skill and power boosts to any individual giving them complete plot armour.
@@UltraGreenNo.57 Yeah. The 5hing with master roshi in top and krillian having a beam struggle with ssj blue was indefensible.
I just don’t understand why toriyama decided to say that all the Z fighters (except Tien) haven’t been training. It would have been so much easier to accept these absurd power jumps if they said they kept training in their own ways. I mean they all have a responsibility to protect earth so it doesn’t make sense for them to give up.
But it’s more frustrating that Tien who does train is disrespected so hard as to be eliminated earlier than those who didn’t.
Roshi?
@@QaamansLand what about him?
Power scaling thoughts?
@@QaamansLand I’m not a fan of power scaling in general as it’s inconsistent/debatable *at best,* and nonsensical bickering that is rendered meaningless when Toriyama does something like Beast Gohan, Golden Frieza (I’m fine w black frieza) or fucking Granolah/Gas 🤦🏻♂️
Roshi is awesome. He’s not typically viewed as a Z-fighter but he’s clearly capable of a lot. Blowing up the moon to revert goku back to his human form is the foundation for DB power scaling. Toriyama probably thought this was a funny, stupid gag but _holy shit did he set the bar high immediately with that one._ By the end of Z I’d honestly put him around Demon King Piccolo level. He doesn’t really continue to grow in Z.
His DBS feats are crazy but most of his representation was nostalgia fan service and I’m okay with that. I don’t sincerely think Roshi stood a chance against 99% of fighters in DBS and to call him god-level (I saw a video about this just today) is disingenuous and not following the spirit of Toriyama’s portrayal. He never wanted Roshi to be viewed as some SSB level fighter.
The writing gives certain characters a moment to show they they can surpass their limits and do things considered impossible. Roshi’s max power kamehameha was a great throwback to og db and that’s all. This moment doesn’t have any real significance in terms of power scaling. More about giving a character one last moment to shine and him seizing the moment and shining brighter than ever.
With regards to his ultra instinct in the manga… Idek what to say. It was a gag but also just a way to remind the audience that roshi is a lifelong martial arts master who would have picked up the tenets of ultra instinct naturally throughout his journey. I don’t look beyond that. Saying he is remotely close to jiren level is just silly. He’s still about the same power level as before to me.
I hate applying actual numbers to power scales because they lost most meaning when we found out earthlings knew how to suppress their power levels and raise them too. Vegeta said as much when he was on Namek and criticized Dodoria’s reliance on the device. The fact that we fans choose to apply numbers onto these characters after Vegeta does this makes it all the more ridiculous.
DBS recognizes the bar is so high it has no meaning. That’s why trunks can fight against merged zamasu, why gohan can beat kefla or why the universe 6 saiyans are so unreasonably strong without any of the work to justify it. So just watch and have fun.
I could have accepted a lot more of the ludicrous power scaling if SSB and SSGod weren’t “godly.” The idea that vegeta and goku have attained godly forms that are stomped by almost every significant fighter from the other universe’s is frustrating. UI/Ego should’ve been the “godly” forms.
Whats wrong with launch tho they must hate her too
1st forgotten
2nd they gave a pee love interest to tien not her
DragonBall Super producers in board Room:
*Deep Sniff Coke* Okay look stop focusing on story & cohesion & all that BS, what Most of these rabid fans eat up is New Forms & Sparky Sparky Booms, so take those gray model figures of the characters over there & then change the colors, Blue, Green, Purple I dont care.
They gonna eat it up and Make us all A LOT of MONEEEEY *coke sniff*
~ Canon Event lmao
Jax, something I've always meant to ask ya, what's your height and weight?
Sparky Sparky Boom Boom!💥💥💥
@@ultrainstinctgoku1926 Sounds like a rabid fan salty lol
this is so true, their forms and names are really uninspired too, not only that but they DONT change the their bodies or anything to keep it cheap to animate
I believe it
After watching this video, I can safely say that the writers for both the manga and the anime don't give a $hit about power scaling, and anyone trying to make sense of it is just making fools of themselves trying to defend this crap.
Dbz literally has the same problems
Dragon ball z power scaling is not that much better then super. I know it’s probably nostalgia blinding you so I’m just going to start listing of z messed up power scaling. For the the first one we can literally start of in the beginning of z. When raditz was introduced he was stronger then piccolo and goku and was not having much of a hard time in beating them but somehow your gonna tell me a toddle who has never fought in his life and had no training can severely injure him in one attack(but since he’s a prodigy/mutant or hybrid is excusable
). Mind you raditz is a trained warrior race space pirate who fights and conquer for a living since a child,but a toddle nearly one shooting him Is fine because he’s throwing a tantrum but for now we will let that slide for for a bit. Let’s forward to the namek saga with gohan. In the beginning gohan wasn’t even on the level with Dodora. Fast forward he gets his potential unlocked and goes on to fight the ginyu force. Gohan was no match for recoome which seems right so for. But then u jump from gohan not touching reccome to gohan literally able to swap hands with second form frieza. Let me remind u that recome is not even 10% of of first form freiza but your telling me in a span of 24 hours(me being generous) gohan can’t touch recome but can fight second form freiza and damage him. If even you use the classic frieza was holding back its instantly voided with Neil not being able to hurt freiza in the slightest in his first form. Even if I high ball gohan to the power lvl of 35,000 after the boost he would still be weaker than Neil. I think we all forget gohan is literally around 5 years old with most of his experience from surviving in the wilderness no heavy combat experience like raditz are even goku. A toddler was able to the strongest being in the universe and surpass goku in the beginning of z with just emotions alone when in og dragon ball you had to work your ass and train. But somehow gohan being able to fight ssb goku when confirmed he’s been training after the resurrection of freiza is so outlandish and makes no sense in logic and power scaling in the franchise with years of experience with his power and actually grown but nope super started the trend of jumping in power out of no where with no explanation.
The concept of getting a enormous power up from emotions is z changing power lvls. Now let’s talk about piccolo. Your telling me somehow piccolo in 2 month can fight second form freiza when the guy couldn’t stand up to nappa in the slightest mind you he was training for one year in preparation for the saiyan. How those piccole in 2 month jump from less them 8,000 to atleast (low-balling here) to 100,000 mind you he wasn’t doing heavy training for a whole like he was for the sayains and was showed to be meditating
On king Kai planet but as soon as freiza those in hell and get stronger now it’s another bullshit powerup. With Neil who was 42,000 doesn’t make much sense on how he can shoot to one million +. If you add them together It’s only 142,000. If u multiple that then piccole one shots final form freiza at a 100%. Now let’s get on goku who surprisingly
Doesn’t have the biggest power lvl jump here but still quit a big offender. How those goku from 90,000 base start of namek reach over a million with a zenkie boost to rival final form freiza with out headcanon, but as soon as android 17 has been revealed to be training on a island for years and was probably around ssj3 it’s a huge problem that he’s that strong. How those goku big of jump of power did not occur when he gets healed out of the hospital bed and u can’t use the excuse that he was injured more ,when he was even more battle torn from the battle on earth with vegeta. Goku was at least still able to move in namek but after getting injured but with the battle with vegate he couldn’t even move. The zenki boost goku would of have to at-least receive is 20x. If zenki boost for goku is that large then his power lvl arriving to namek after leaving the hospital bed with out training should of been (going to low ball his power lvl to 7,000 before getting heal to prove a point on how massive the namek zenki boost was.)after fighting vegeta at 140,000. Remember 20x is the lowest multiplication. I seriously don’t get what’s the out rage about freiza and 17 being that strong in super I’m totally fine with 17 freiza is definitely questionable but again a toddle with no experience can scare the living day lot of somebody who fights all the time and actually injure him and freiza was originally the most powerful being and was confined to be a mutant. The androids being 99x being more powerful then freiza doesn’t make any sense to begin with from the android saga. Everybody complains about super sayain blue and god being suppressed so easily when super saiyan was easily as irrelevant as soon androids appear(17 & 18). Your telling me dr gero can make beings more powerful then a legendary prophecy that majority of the universe knows about even guru said a super saiyan is unbeatable. The most feared man in the universe was obviously bothered just hearing about it being mentioned. But some dude on earth can make take some regular humans not even martial artists but young adults make the transformation look like child’s play. Let’s talk about the whole tien holding back semi perfect cell. How those that make any sense from a power scaling point of view. Imperfect cell was a moment a go was able to take piccolo strongest attack with no damage who was relative to android 17. Android 17 was able to man Handel tien with no sweat, again he’s a being stronger then super saiyans. Even if I put tien at the lvl of android 19 are 20 there should be no way that can hold back imperfect cell who was destroying beings stronger than super saiyans for breakfast mind u imperfect cell took piccole strongest attack with no damage. But somehow tien was able to stall semi perfect who was stronger then 17 and piccole and then absorbed 17 but piccole strongest attack who was par with 17 doesn’t faze imperfect cell. If tien attack is that powerful he should of one shot nappa and used it against the androids of the first meeting they would of been destroyed are injured. But I guess master roshi using techniques like the mafuba and dodging Jiren(obviously holding back and not fighting him full strength ) with a techniques is where we crossed the line and say power scaling is ruined. I can keep going all the way to the end of the cell saga to the buu saga but I would be up all night. This is me just saying a lot of the problems in the db franchise today has always been provident since z. And super story problem is pretty much similar the same problems of z after the namek saga. Why don’t all put down the nostalgia bong and stop taking a hit of it and actually analyze everything fairly. Or My best ideal is to just enjoy it instead of nitpicking every little thing because that can ruin anything. Like they say comparison is the thief of joy.
@SD-wj9bv Not to the extent of Super. You can still make sense of OG and Z's powerscaling and it is way more consistent to understand than Super by a long shot. Super fans just can't take criticism when it falls short.
@@whatifonepiece I feel like both there Power-scaling is not that good at all and both have very lazy power ups that make no sense. A lot of super problems extends from dbz especially after namek. Once after namek sage the quality of the story drops of. At the end of the day if where going to criticize super might as well include z since of the same problem are present in it especially the starting android saga. That’s why don’t really bother looking to deep into dragon ball. Definitely the ending of og to namek is a masterpiece in spite of some of criticism I have for it. After that in my opinion the story is decent to mid
Tbf
Writers as a whole generally don't care about power scaling
What matters is whatever point the story is trying to make
And as long as it's relatively believable that characters could be at the comparative power level they need to be for a battle, there's no need to get more specific.
DB does have a tendency to stretch believability in this regard, esp. with super Saiyan transformations, but it's perfectly clear how the writers put themselves in a position where these power boosts needed to suddenly happen, and after gotenks SSJ is so cheap they sell it at the dollar store so the whole kefla situation doesn't really push sny new boundaries
In all honesty, out all of the non-sayain transformations introduced in Dbs, I personally feel that Piccolo's are the best. Mainly because the power gained from them makes sense since Piccolo is one of the few characters besides Goku and Vegeta to train near daily. Also, since the reason why Shenron gave the power boost to Piccolo pretty fair since, in a way, Piccolo created Shenron, and so therefore Shenron has a lot of respect for Piccolo.
Roshi?
@QaamansLand Roshi's is a close second since his ultra powerful secret training allowed him to casually jump from moon level to being able to casually dodge Jiren in a way that makes total complete sense in the narrative and isn't total nonsense for the sake of plot.
That's why Piccolo is the goat
Wasnt it established a VERY long time ago that Shenron is locked to the power level of its creator, and therefor, cant make people stronger? Theres a limit to its power? As the series goes on, all the rules just get retconned. I remember when it was a big deal losing people...because we had 1 wish...and you only had 1 extra chance at life..hell in Dragon Ball, oolong wishing for a pair of panties is still one of the biggest FUCK YOU's in anime, simply cuz he knew how much work went into gathering those dragon balls, only to sideline literally everyone for something he couldve just bought at the store. That was one of those moments where your jaw drops in disbelief. Now a days, we have 3 wishes, unlimited rez's, hell we can even ressurect entire planets and populations if we word the wish right! gross
@@xiphosmaniac that was back when kami was the guardian of earth and the earths dragon and kami was just super weak when dende came to earth in the cell saga dende was much more physically stronger then and more efficient with how he upgraded the earths dragon balls to make shenron become closer in strength to what porunga could do not only that but its not like in dbs super hero that shenron can just immediately unleash piccolos potential dende literally has to upgrade shenron for a second time its a very well animated part of the movie and a lot of attention is actually focused on it and shenron being locked to the power of its creator is still something that hasn't been retconned since again dende is stronger then kami was plus he actually has knowledge of how to make the dragon balls more proficient since he still remembers what namek is like and how things are done there
This gives me faith that my life can have an unbelievably massive power up that no one expected
Yeah youre still not gonna work out or eat right though
@@thatfunkadeus thats just plain mean
There was also the case of Vegeta being in SS Blue and not being able to damage base Goku Black, but when Goku Black turn SS Rose he has to resort to doing a cheap stab at Vegeta because Goku Black was being beaten.
In that case
The manga made more sense
Goku Black was no match for Vegeta until he unlocked Rose
SSB is stronger than base Goku black, but then SS rosé matches or surpasses SSB1.
Yeah exactly my thoughts. Its like Rose made him weaker during that vegeta fight because in base, he even smiled at vegeta blue pumching him.
The moment Frieza said the 'N-word' we all knew it was over.
Huh?
@@QaamansLand Because he's black now...
Ningen
My monkey naiyan
The joke is that he literally became black@@QaamansLand
To whoever is reading this keep going,you're doing fine! No matter how slow your progress each new week is filled with tiny steps forward. Be proud of yourself you got this!
Eat Well Play Well Study Well or something 😂
Nah, I'm gonna off myself. Nice try though.
Umm i have a living phobia telling me not to off myself is ableist
Thank you.
@@OnlyTwoShoeswhy
I love how goku and vegeta are constantly training with gods, learning to use different kis and techniques, unlocking more and more forms
Then you have gohan and c17 that "trained" and they somehow keep up😂
What about master roshi fighting super Saiyan level opponents in top
Or krillin being ssb level
Remember that those ssj power level opponents are ssj after God ki power level opponents @@jakebatty530
Yeah, they really needed proper training explanations (an arc is preferable but what can you do? Even the manga just left Resurrection F to the movie). I'm bored/angry enough to fan fic it below lol. but just to set some ground power levels:
- End of Buu arc Goku = 1, for our base comparison
- SSJ3 Goku is 400, based on some common fan calcs.
- For the sake of Super, let's say God Ki being absorbed gives you a 10x boost to base, and SSG is a 3000 multiplier (close to the diff of SSJ2 and SSJ3 at 8x). So end of Bog Goku is 30,000.
Humans: they get trained by someone (can be Whis but why not some other gods/god candidates) to use God Ki. For Krillen/Tien/Yamcha that combo should take their bases to at least 10 (remember, God ki absorbed base Goku is now 100). Roshi would need some extra arc to try and do some mix of restoring some of his prime power and unlocking his potential. There's no Non-BS way to do this huge jump from DB to DBS levels but the result should at least get Roshi to 5 or so.
They are behind mostly due to lack of transformations, but that's where phase 2 is: upping the mults on their ki blasts. Once they plateau in physical power levels, they train with their new God ki to infuse with their techniques. So what they lack in raw power they make up for with HUGE multipliers on their refined techniques. As well as their usual battle intellect. Humans always stood up to threats with some ingenuity to make up for lack of power.
17/18: similar to Gamma 1/2. But now we bring Bulma in! A mix of infusing more data, simulation training, and refinement could get these two to say, 10k at base (remember, no transformations. So we're talking stronger than SSJ3 Goku by BoG but weaker than SSG for people without a transformation). They'd be weaker than the Saiyans and not have as strong ki blasts as the humans, but their limitless energy make for great long term fights as ways to close out stuff like ToP (which 17 kind of did already).
Piccolo: honestly let's just make the Shenron thing from Super Heroes come much earlier. Except Orange Piccolo doesn't unlock for a long time (maybe around Moro arc?). Then he trains as always. That's really all he needed lol. I think the explanation was fine, just "why did he take so long to think of this?". He can train to like, 1000 with his newfound potential and his "mystic" form can be a similar multiplier to SSG, so he's in the Saiyan league like the old days.
Gohan: with piccolo's change; just let them train. Honestly, his mystic form was so early with such an unknown potential that "he trained" can explain a lot. Since he was arguably very close to 1 already, unlike everyone above. He can still also use Zenkais to get any more power needed later.
Outside of the humans, they didn't need HUGE explanations. Just something to justify the catchup to thr absurd powercreep without dimishing the power of of the new god powers. I think it's also fine that there's obvious power disparities even with the reworks. Other universes were fine having clear "aces". I'm not sure why they needed to make every seem almost equal to Goku. Huge overcorrection from the Buu saga.
Tien who kept Training being surpassed by krillin who at some point stopped training
who is c17?
20:48 why the hell did it zoom into that 💀
23:35
Kefla going wild for that sayussy
Tryna understand the califla crotch shot
The most retarded thing about super scaling is that, for some reason, characters that are supposed to be close to each other fight the same opponent, but one clearly preforms better than the other. In the broly movie for instance broly starts pressing god vegeta and looks like hes gonna win, but goku interrupts and fights him in fuc#ing base?????, and yet is able to hang for a min while taking shots and reacting to his attacks, even tho he should literally get one shot lol. Goes ss1, lasts a bit, THEN goes god, and preforms much better, holds him in place, and before that has control over the fight until after broly breaks free. This feat alone makes gokus base thousands of times stronger than vegetas, but again, we are told thats not the case, its the most inconsistent thing ever lol
Goku always got the asspull stuff from Tori. I'm glad he has no say anymore, so we can finally see Vegeta shine
Thanks Qaaman for having my input on some of the music and that one scene with Goku training with Whis in the gravity chamber. You rock brother!
The powerscaling in modern dragon ball is entirely based on making gullible impressionable children (and adults too for that matter) go all "OOOOHHHH... AAAAHHH" as if they're watching fucking fireworks.
Finally, it is done. I bet you didn't expect this video to be as big of an undertaking as it turned out to be
While It's true that DBS has awful scaling, DBZ was also horrendous in that regard.
The fact that, for example, there's valid arguments for Goten, not gotenks, JUST GOTEN > piccolo during the buu saga, should be enough evidence.
pretty sure power scaling was complete destroyed after the frieza sage...before the cell saga, numbers stopped making sense at that point
I mean they were never really stated to work linearly tho
I actually really like how the weaker fighters’ fighting styles are more technique-based rather than power. Like krillin always having destructo disk & solar flare up his sleeve, Roshi using the evil containment wave, etc. While goku and Vegeta basically just use elevated speed and strength by other names now
And Tien with his ki ko ho
Right that is cool, but they cannot just retcon and ignore the insane power ups that super saying, and god super sayinn gives to goku, and vegeta. Its not like they do not have there own fighter techniques as well. especially goku, who has been fighting like that since a kid in og dragon ball.
I think it is cooler to focus on tech rather than big number blast man wins, both do have moments and are cool, but if all the fights are just big number blast win, its boring. They should have given all the z fighers training to learn the kai oh ken, which would have let them beliveable somewhat close the power gap.
If only the casual viewer knew the work that went into this, the streams for this were fun af to be apart of
But I think we are missing the ultimate question. How strong is Mr PoPo
Top of the pecking order
i would accept Popo displaying the feats Roshi did more
"Yes".
I feel like ToP in particular can't be used for the power scaling debates, because of the no-killing rule. Which means that any fighter must adjust their own power level to roughly match that of their opponent, maybe like twice as strong is the most they can use in order to ensure they do not accidentally kill the person they are fighting, making ToP more of a showcase of skill rather than raw power. Now, this does have obvious problems, like for example people like Hit - who do not have control over their power level. And especially Mafuba, I do not see why the technique would care about how much power the target is currently using, rather than what amount of power they have in total.
But yeah ToP is supposedly working under different rules than most of the fights in order to make it work as a narrative and not just be Jiren blowing up the entire arena after the fight starts ^^'
Good point
Nice theory
It's a contrived way of having Goku survive despite the power scale
ngl this could work if there were an instance of fighters dying at the start due to a huge power imbalance so some of the stronger fighters get disqualified and everyone else realizes they need to hold back
Imagine if frieza had defeated goku, only to get absolutely dog walked by a couple of android teenagers
Where Dragon Ball Z killed the power scaling was when they had Friezas power be more than 1 million and had him at 120,000,000 im his final form maxed out. Once the numbers got outrageous Toriyama just said screw the numbers. I have an excel sheet and video idea of how to fix the power scaling for the Frieza Arc
Dude got an excel sheet 😂
this, Goku went from having 60k to 150m in 2 days.
"For more OG Dragon Ball fans that want to see more serious fights, Gotenks doesn't really bring the best out of this"
If you actually mean the original Dragon Ball then I don't understand this reasoning. Dragon Ball had a lot of comedic or lighthearted moments during some of the biggest fights. If you mean DBZ, things did get a lot more serious there, for the most part. I understand more, but there were still silly comedic frames, gags and jokes thrown in. I'm not trying to gatekeep, and I'm not saying fans need to like Gotenks to be a fan, but if someone doesn't like these moments then I don't really see that as being a fan of "OG Dragon Ball", because comedy and gags are ever present in Dragon Ball.
Blud really said "for more OG Dragon Ball fans that watched Krillin defeating Bacteria with toilet humor, Gotenks doesn't really bring the best our of it" and tougth he made a point xd
This guy simply never watched DB and it shows over and over again in this video
Another banger from our boy Qaaman! Yo this turned out absolutely amazing bro, well done!
I honestly hate power scaling cause it leaves no room for possibilities. There's no situation where a character beats a stronger character by having a good day or stride. Maybe a character has a more aggressive battle style which doesn't work as well against a defensive style. So the character changes and has the advantage. It always feels like oh this character was an arc after so it's automatically stronger....like that's lazy writing.
Like in dragonball
@@holdmyown06 actually Dragon Ball had a solution for that. Remember when Trunks was SSj Grade 3. Cell says "you're stronger ...but you can't win!" Goku explained this to Gohan strength great but speed and energy consumption takes it's toll. So they tried a different approach which is respiratory training in maintaining a weaker form. For endurance.
@@holdmyown06 Goku says to Raditz in ep 3 "just cause you're stronger doesn't mean you can win!" Cause Piccolo and Goku had coordinated attacks and made a plan (Full Nelson Special Beam Cannon) or when Goku, Gohan, and Krillin worked together to nail Vegeta with the Spirit Bomb. Vegeta was stronger clearly, but they used Teamwork.
Yes that's the problem with having characters jump 10x or 100x or 1000x in power. It's a problem with dragonball's world building. The completely linear power system with massive jumps in power, leaves no room for possibilities, variance, creativity. The power system established by DB since the 90's, has been bad since the 90's.
Maybe other shows are more for you and me?
A good writer could have a stronger character loose to a weaker one with strategy
Dragonball writers apparently don't care at all
DBS Killed the last spark of interest I had in Dragon Ball, now there’s only nostalgia left.
Truthfully, “power scaling” was already on the rocks by the namek saga at the very least, and the Buu arc just cemented this. The Buu arc specifically having most of if not all of Super’s power scaling shenanigans but is readily given the green light by fans because of its seniority and legacy.
On the aside, Super doesn’t get enough (if any) due praise for its focus on skill in fights. Goku changing the angle of his punch against Beerus to negate some of the effects and neutralizing them despite being weaker than Beerus is a great example of this. Goku watching for Hit’s movements and targeting his time cage’s activation window was a smart way to get around a cheesey ability with just pure martial intuition. Goku destroying Jiren’s footing instead of beating him head on or using ki mines to slow his advance was also quite cool. I do think DBS sort of inherited a lot of its power scale wonkiness from the Buu saga and was forced to work *around* it for the sake of the narrative rather than appeasing geeks; but I do appreciate the times where it’s not just punchy punchy as I do think Z did lose that element in translation along the road.
Another point of praise is the usage of transformations as “stacks” as opposed to something like SSJ2 or 3 where it’s just “super saiyan but more”, as the mixing of God and Blue is always fun to see in both the anime and manga and shows a minmaxing of the two forms. In the Granolah saga Goku mixes some of Ultra Instinct with SSGSS to hide his vitals and to become harder to detect. Again in the Granolah arc a clear separation is given between Gas’ quick obtaining of instant transmission being more unpolished and Goku had years of actual experience on him with the move, being far more efficient with it. Goku vs Kale/Caulifa also showed this experience gap with the two not using their forms to their full potential and being endlessly sloppy with their coordination and attacks. Goku was fatigued and was pretty much *training* them during that bout which was cool. This video kind of painted Caulifa as obtaining SSJ then soloing the cast or something when that just wasn’t the case at all.
Bro even in og dragon ball king piccolo detroyed city in one shoot and roshi blown up moon
@@shido_rimru_ and characters like Gotenks could scream tears and rifts in space-time in the time chamber lol, but Caulifla getting SSJ is too much for people to handle lmao.
@@frostyfrenchtoast I think people would've been fine with Caullifla being a Super Saiyan if she'd just BEEN one in the first place before she was introduced. It's the series' own fault for having them learn that form in a literal day when no one asked it to.
I think Super still deserves a lot of flack for taking the Buu Saga's power scaling issues and making them infinitely worse. They didn't even TRY to explain gaps that were more egregious than ever. They gave Goku and Vegeta god tier universe destroying power in base, and forgot that half the time when they fought other characters. It's a goddamn disaster.
With that said, I agree with you that it deserves credit for at least trying to bring skill and technique into fights. It did a lot more of that than a lot of Z, frankly. it's a shame its production issues, horrid characterization issues, and power scaling obscured that honest effort.
@@ganoninthepit I legit don’t think it matters. Goten and Trunks learned it in a very similar span of time as children, and Caulifla was already said to be a combat prodigy *while* being a different type of Saiyan entirely. And even beyond that, her SSJ was particularly impressive or powerful compared to the main cast’s anyways, so it’s not that consequential. The forms are instead used as story elements particularly with Kale, so I don’t have a problem with it.
Again, laughingstock sorta acts like Caulifla is some overpowered character that was granted SSJ only because she’s a female character, despite the fact that she was getting jobbed by a fatigued SSJ Goku not even taking the battle seriously and she was fighting with Kale to boot lol. This wasn’t actually mentioned by them though lol.
Wait, I thought everyone knew this back in DBZ? Super didn't kill it, Toriyama killed it decades ago. If anything, the Buu Saga should've proved this to everyone.
How many weird situations with power scaling & Buu variations did we get? We had to get weird explainations like "SSJ3 Goku was just trying to stall for time against fat Buu, not trying to win!" and "Kid Buu is just the mOsT dAnGeRoUs (whatever that means) not the strongest!" to explain why base/SSJ Goku could keep up with & defeat him.
Buu separating from himself, then reabsorbing himself to get stronger, Gohan getting a power up from just dicking around with the Supreme Kai for dozens of episodes - only to dominate & lose anyway, all the time spent on fusion power ups - only for them to not matter at all & still just wrap up with the same Goku spirit bomb stuff... Power scaling & ass pull power ups has been a DB thing for along time now.
Being the most dangerous meant having no self control and just destroying everything to his heart's desire
The other Buus were stronger (except fat buu and evil buu) but less unhinged, you could actually TALK to them
Good point
Yeah but most people love DBZ (I say Z because a lot haven't even read or watched DB) and trash on Super. Then, obviously, they will say it's because of Super.
I mean theres a pretty big difference from the Brain rot in DBS that actually has no defense because of previous arcs and well established characters and DBZ making rules for transformations and characters we dont know anything about yet.
Dbz was fairly consistent until the boo arc and even still there was nothing too crazy you could still use logic to explain most things you saw. The thing with super is the scaling is so shit you can take almost nothing seriously. From the start dbs already breaks itself by saying Goku absorbed the power of ssjg in his base. Now because of this everything they face in super is universal+ level. Cabba who has no fear to put him even at Dabura level has ssjg level power. Hit is somehow ssjg level. Everyone has god power in dbs to the point where it doesn’t make sense. Even in the broly movie (which is the best part of super easily) has scaling issues. I get broly is the legendary super saiyan but he shouldn’t be able to hang with ssjb goku at all even in his own ssj state. Since they made goku and vegeta so strong this means they have to make everyone they face that strong as well and it doesn’t help that the writing sucks.
This is why I like to emphasize a cool spectacle and story over number based power values when I write. It's just way more fun. As long as it makes sense for the character and is thesable, who cares. Just have fun.
This goes doubly for the villains I write. A cool visual spectacle and a intimidating but logical villain can be one of the most memorable characters.
Qaaman I been watching you for awhile and I gotta say, you really are the Dragon Ball analyzer. You very underrated and deserver more subs.
I've always believed power scaling stopped making sense around the buu saga. Only super took that non-sensical aspect and cranked it up to 11. Really, I'd be more interested if there was some cosmic explanation for the sudden massive power jumps, sort of like the energies of the universe shifting or enriching over time and thus allowing living being to ascend more quickly than they could have years before. But then that would probably result in an eventual singularity or something where somebody gets too powerful and the cosmic forces of the universe become oversaturated and eat through the fabric of existence like too much ink on paper; caused by U7's denizens never-ending quest for power.... where was I going with this again?
Master Roshi?
@@QaamansLandhas been alive for centuries and has showed techniques can give a slight edge in combat it’s not like he straight up whoop jiren juss had a moment and I can say he deserves it bc it probably some of them characters last time fighting
"caused by U7's denizens' never-ending quest for power"
That sounds a bit like GT's evil dragons storyline doesn't it! It'd have been cool.
It’s the classic DB problem. I ran into someone easily more powerful than me but for some reason despite being so very easily stronger than me they didn’t kill me outright? So now all I need do is get more powerful and there’s so many ways I can do this it’s multiple choice really. So I get more powerful and for some that option seems limitless I trounce the person who very recently was stomping me into a mud puddle. Rinse and repeat.
I love how in none of these videos anyone ever assumes that Beerus is also getting stronger along side the main cast, by being trained by the guy who';s job is to train gods of Destruction, Whis.
Ive never seen thst clip of the android’s just eating trunks punches like that they did him so dirty 😭😭😭
Timestamp?
@@QaamansLand 2:32
Here's a reminder that the numerical power levels were always bullshit. Every single person in lore that relies on those numbers alone gets their asses kicked hard.
Thii guy gets it. Power scaling was something only the two-digit IQ side of the fandom envibed.
Half of the Namek saga is about how humans with their fancy martial arts can pull attacks 2 orders of magnitude stronger than their "resting" power level.
Krillin almost killed Frieza.
20:49 is wild.. i see why them girl his fav
What is wild?
"Don't you think camera angles in anime could be strange sometimes?"
At least Gotenks was meant to be a joke. Kale and Caulifla were supposed to be serious characters.
Yeah, Supers problem is how large the leaps and power got over the course the Z onward. It wasn't too bad in DB with smaller leaps, you could buy that one of the fighters could catch up through training. But once Z came around, things got wildly out of control. With the Namek Saga being the worst it. Its unfortunately not possible to tell the stories toriyama wanted to tell without breaking power scaling. Because SSJ exists, and new villains have to be scaled with it in mind. Which makes it impossible to have any of the non saiyan fighters fight alongside goku and actually be relevant. And that's just sad, when you can't tell meaningful stories with your ensemble cast. Because they cannot nuke a universe.
If you ignore the power scaling issues, some of the super arcs are decent. I'm not sure how you could make the ideas of Super work while respecting power scaling without nerfing or cutting the god forms they wanted to market so badly.
I really do like the character stories going on in DBS. Vegeta and Goku's one-upsmanship, and different fighting styles, Frieza becoming the new 'Vegeta' of the series, Piccolo becoming relevant again, etc.
The problem I have is the power system underpinning all of these stories, is a complete mess and gets in the way of itself. You basically cannot figure out how much stronger the characters are now, compared to when they were in DBZ. It's impossible to make the comparison.
So in order to enjoy modern DB, you basically just have to admit to yourself that the power levels are a mistake and you must ignore them. Which basically invalidates like a quarter of the dialogue of that part of the series. In a lot of ways, DBS may actually be a better series than DBZ because more people have relevance and character arcs. But it doesn't make sense. The problem is it clashes with everything established up until DBS.
I have to disagree with you saying “dbs might be better than dbz” yes ultimately goku or vegeta are usually the ones to defeat the main villains dbz s used a lot of its characters. In the saiyan saga piccolo, gohan, goku, and even killin got a little shine. In namek bulma, gohan, piccolo, vegeta, krillin, Nail. Cell saga, Trunks, vegeta, Gohan, Tien, Piccolo. Boo saga, vegeta, gohan, goten and trunks, fycking Mr Satan ☠️. People helped in original Z and the ways they helped made way more sense than the way characters get mysterious power ups in Super.
Part of the problem was I think doubling down on the leaps. SSJ Goku vs Frieza ok then the androids are killing SSJs and Cell is massively stronger then Buu is stronger again with SSJ 2 and 3 turning up. If you'd just stayed with SSJ and had it be an increase rather than a multiplier so 10,000 base to SSJ is 150 . . . 1000 and 80,000 base to ssj is 150 . . . 80,000. You could still have the others contribute. Just introduce fusion so you have Kriltien and Yamtzu able to stand alongside the SSJ's thanks to this technique Goku learnt on Yadrat. Then you have the androids show up able to beat the SSJ's and Cell gets seventeen by sneaking which takes Imperfect cell to matching the andoirds then he takes 18 and is now twice as strong. Ok you've made SSJ's and fused humans obsolete and Gohan takes him out as per the storyline only what makes Gohan different to the other Saiyans why he had his potential unlocked by Guru he just had to let it go. Now we had forward to the Buu saga with Vegeta and Goku training furiously to keep up with Gohan who has let himself go rather than letting his power go. So you can drop Dabura to say 1, 1.5 times SSJ without potential unlocked and Gohan is no longer strong enough to win easily. This means Fat Buu can be on par with Cell and still be a huge threat. Vegito can match him, fat and thin Buu's half their power, Super Buu is on par with original Fat Buu but then grabs SSJ Gotenks and Piccolo etc. Now Vegitto knowing his power isn't enough to beat super buu lets himself be aborbed and rescues the others resulting in Kid Buu who is half the power level of original Fat Buu and thus can be taken by a SSJ Goku or Vegeta if they weren't so tired Goku needs a spirit bomb for the boost to fully destroy Kid Buu. Supersaiyan blue should be tossed in the trash and just keep super saiyan god. A form that puts Goku and Vegeta at around Cell levels and you can use God Ki or SSJ transformation not both. Zamussu? On part with SSG Goku and Vegeta, the tournament of power members SSG or Cell level etc.
Basically if you just keep SSJ as the only form and tone down the jumps after Frieza you can make it work. Especially if you include minions Krillin doesn't need to be strong enough to beat revived Frieza just to deal with one of his lieutenants like the old Ginyu force or Zarbon.
If the ToP was, say a few months down the road and everybody had time to train, then I could at least sort of accept some of the huge gains, especially with the time chamber. It would have also given the U6 Saiyans time to learn and perfect SSJ, maybe even explore forms beyond it.
Super has very poor writing lol
They start to train after golden frieza saga if toriyama said they been trained, I think after Golden frieza saga arc, Because they know the danger when goku and vegeta is not in earth to save them.
Honestly by Super and the buu saga’s logic, you can train for just a few hours W/OUT the time chamber or anything like that, and boom, you have now unlocked SSJ, without any sort of tramatic event or rage boost or anything like that.
Im sorry but as far as im concerned the second Goku obtained God Ki and instantly surpassed Super Vegito in terms of power any idea of ANYONE without God ki catching up within their lifetime should be literally impossible without Magic of some kind being involved.
The fact every Saiyan transformation is some multiplier of 50x or better than their base form basically invalidates any argument one could make in favor of logical and reasonable training any other race in DB could do. Especially given they've all had 20 years and only recently in the story are they getting 100s of times stronger in a super short amount of time comparatively, itd be more believable with God magic or the Dragon Balls or some kind of Deus Ex Machina item helping them get stronger: but instead we are told they just do basic asf training and somehow immediately catch up to not only SS-SS3 levels of power but to forms that are several times those multipliers as well
Dragon Ball really did suffer from Toriyama not being beholden to his editors.
Roshi?
Toriyama isn't writing any of this.
He's just giving them a rubber stamp so they can CLAIM he has given his approval.
What part of that disasterous ass pull called the gokublack arc(aka the character assassination of future trunks) felt like a toriyama story?
Fucks sake it was supposed to be future Goten but surprise surprise they made it a GOKU story and managed to permanently ruin future trunks forever and destroy DB time mechanics forever so they can force a terrible as fuck GOKU AM GREET narrative that just...ruins it for everyone.
@@QaamansLand Nah, his editors that oversaw his work and would force him to make certain changes (the most famous one being the changes they forced him to make in the Android Saga). You could see the difference in the Buu Saga and how unfocused it was; showing that Toriyama is one of those artists that thrives when being guided by pressure and artistic limitations.
@@incognit01233future trunks sucks
@@incognit01233 The goku black arc pissed me off like Future Trunks was a badass and they made him look useless like wtf. Also All goku black was usefull for were those "Boys like pink when it comes to..." edits
Great video,
While I completely agree with the issue of power scaling( especially in the newer stuff)...
I think the whole point of Roshi is his potential is probably one of the highest in the cast, But he dosent train super hard because he invented the Hermit turtle way, so he likes to take life and enjoy it to its fullest and anything ( other than a saiyan) wouldn't enjoy training super hard all the time... Rember
"Work hard, study well, and eat and sleep plenty! That is the Turtle Hermit way!"
longevity is also a trait of turtles
Another great video Qaaman. Really appreciate your hard work for all you do.
Yeah there is a huge lack of comparative power scaling between characters in DBS... basically all we can do in DBS is compare character feats which get convoluted without any direct comparisons (like Dabura being compared to Cell in DBZ)
At this point, i want Roshi to surpass everyone.
Weirdly I'd be okay with this even if it is nonsensical, mostly because Roshi is one of my favorite fighters in the show, due has loads of cool techniques and he's pretty clever too.
I mean he made the Kamehameha which is responsible for how many Ws in the series?
@@Leevodevo 1
Can we appreciate the hard effort qaaman and mike has put into this one video for us?
Roshi should have been Dragonball fanservice. He should have brought back some goated abilities like Bending Kamehameha, Solar Flare, and Mafuba in creative ways to overcome stronger opponents. Instead they treat him like Goku; "Just have him yell and power up and beam struggle and the fans won't care." Dragonball Super is WWE of anime; "Don't think, just consume product."
Guys, it's super. Even mr satan in super could slam majin vegeta
Love all the music in here especially Lost Courage, Dark Half & Stand after Confusion
How did you know the music before any of it even played? Are you kami?
@@emperorpalpatine9841no he’s a Yoshi
Powerlevels never made any sense. Frieza the emperor of the universe - the monster who slaughtered millions - is weaker than some teenage cyborg some scientist on earth assembled
This video just made me realize that the whole training for the androids thing makes no sense.
When Trunks first came, he and Goku were around the same level… but after 3 years of training, they are still around the same level?
Trunks didn’t train for 3 years, he just went back to his time, and then entered 3 years into the future in his Time Machine.
This basically implies that Goku really didn’t get much stronger at all, the only ones who really got much stronger was Piccolo and maybe Gohan, apparently Vegeta didn’t even get much stronger since he needed Super Saiyan to beat the androids, yet Piccolo was strong enough to take on the androids with his own power… so much nonsensical stuff in this arc lol.
I wrote down a future topic because of your comment.
Oh you mean, andorid 19 and 20? Yes, it is true, piccolo was stronger then SAYIANS in base forms, which means, that he improved ALOT! I see it now!
It's really disheartening how everybody got a power boost in this mess except for our deserving boy Tien...
He definitely could get away with power boost through is alien lineage … but again the author is shitty when it comes to writing side characters.
I always saw the per-tournament spar with Goku and Krillin as Goku helping prepare Krillin for the potential power of the opponents. SSJB has better Ki control so it would also arguably be easier for Goku to not accidentally use more power than Krillin could handle.
Then his base is what he should've used
Should've never went blue no matter what. He can always hold back in his base form.
Dragon Ball power scaling stopped making sense when Roshi blew up the moon
Reason
Or at least when Roshi commentet in the 22. Tournament how much stronger the Kikoho is than the Kamehameha after he blew up the Ring because apperently Tournament Ring
That's like saying Dragon Ball power scaling stopped making sense because kid Goku broke the manga panel.... Dragon Ball at the time didn't have any rules when it comes to power scaling....It was a gag manga at the time.
@@deonterector The Moon Feat was how Roshi defeated Oozaru Goku in the 21. Tournament. Its not just a random event that can easily be dismissed as just a gag.
Yeah original Dragon Ball really fucks up power scaling. It even has a faster-than-light feat from kid Goku, which to me says we shouldn't take it too seriously.
Broly himself is 1 of the biggest ass pulls
In no way shape or form should he EVER BE anywhere CLOSE in power to Goku and Vegeta
Countless battles, training with literal Gods and Angels
Absorbing and mastering God Ki
Techniques mastered
Battle strategies mastered
All thrown out the window
Legendary or not that was the biggest middle finger to everything Goku and Vegeta had done in the series
At least Gohan trained and fought side by side with some of the best warriors ever and his potential was teased from day 1
His beast form was ass pull but it still made more sense than Broly and Frieza in my opinion
Broly is a mutant sayian no?
@@yaryardays957no he is just a lucky ass mf
@@nirogalactoid8398yeah, a mutant. Which Frieza is as well. So assuming they naturally just have far more potential then the average being of their race
Stuff like this always just reminds me of the interview with Toriyama when dbz was first airing in english, about how he introduced scouters to the series to try and point out how dumb he thought specific power scaling is and regretted how much it backfired
20:48 What's With The Zoom In There Huh? What Ya Lookin' At?
What zoom in are you talking about?
@@QaamansLand 🤨
@@QaamansLandu wylin
@@QaamansLandwtf bro shes underage
@@Penguin1400 first of all she is an alien monkey
second she is a cartoon character drawn in a style where everybody looks and acts the exact same from ages 13-1000
and finally im pretty sure if she didnt consent you would be reduced to atoms so she can probly handle herself
Cabba solos the entirety of DBZ even if they were to all fuse together…just think about that for a second.
I mean base Cabba.
Master Roshi?
@@QaamansLand His crazy ascension came in super.
But he would probably achieve the same feat as well, based on how ludicrously powerful they made him.
So, I'll say it once, and I'll say it a hundred times.
I'd rather have more characters that are able to participate in a meaningful way than power scaling that makes sense.
Obviously, if I could have both, I would want both, but I've ALWAYS felt like it was a huge weakness in Dragon Ball's writing that they had all these interesting secondary protagonists and a huge cast of characters, but functionally none of them mattered besides Goku.
Which is fine to want but pre-established characters weve already seen train the entire story make no sense to ever be relavent again. Theres a reason Krillin, 18, 17, Yamcha, Roshi and Tien took a massive step back from the story in the Buu saga, and they shouldve stayed in the back to make way for other new characters
Honestly I'm just sick of the transformations and flashy lasers, I wanna see more techniques like the Kaioken or literally anything involving actual martial arts.
Power scaling was killed on Namek
To be fair Power scalled was killed very early on in Dragon ball.
I guess people forget The Androids more powerful than Frieza and Super Saiyan.
super was doomed from the start. there was no feasible way to realistically catch up any non saiyan to a post BoG Goku. and instead of acknowledging that and focusing on the saiyans, they gave everyone off screen power ups so that people wouldn’t complain about “the goku and vegeta show” (which is extremely dumb). and this doesn’t just apply to the Z fighters. besides hit whos 1000 years old, there’s no feasibly reason to believe that anybody in all the universes could even come close to Goku and Vegeta without God Ki or some kind of divine training. frost, dyspo, U7 saiyans, the bergamo and friends. all of these jobbers shouldn’t even be close to a post BoG Goku’s BASE FORM, especially without a transformation
But that’s the thing from different universes we can’t say just because they don’t have God ki they can’t be as strong as Goku and Vegeta.
God ki is trash and blue has been an ass ugly gaudy jobber form from jump.
@@kaienglish271The problem with that tho is they dont give us a backstory that supports them having a life of struggle where they get said power they just are and we're supposed to just accept that.
@@cooper2211 why would they need a life of struggle to show how they are strong? You’re asking them to show us every character who is strong with a backstory on how they got strong. This is what you’ve got to understand just because we see Vegeta, Goku , Piccolo and etc struggle to get stronger don’t apply that to other Universes they are completely different to our Universe 7
@kaienglish271 Why wouldn't it be good to show HOW characters we've never seen before got to the strength they are other just taking it at face value because they need to be some "tension" on how goku and vegeta can overcome said foe(s) or at the very least give a plausible reason characters are as strong as they are. A good example is Hit a assassin that has lived for hundreds of years where obviously he'll have gained immense experience and strength during that time to get where he is, but everyone that is just suspend disbelief and roll with it.
4:05 they did trunks so dirty here💀
A lot of people put heat on goku using his transformations against the weaker fighters he was recruiting for the T.O.P but I think it wasn't to say they were all god level or equal to blue, but for goku to show his teammates that these would be the level of some of the people they would have to stand off against, Its pretty solid evidence that goku is more or so flexing these transformations than rather actually using them at the power we typically associate these transformations with with the exception of 17, I think he made this very clear when gohan basically had to beg him to use his max power and got one-shot which makes sense. Not that he needed to go full power to do this.
Yea but he still had to use blue kiaoken x10 or 20. Surprised he didn’t die from that if that was full power
“Yurin powering Roshi by putting her Yurin on his face” is wild😭😭😭😭
And people want to know why I stopped liking dragonball. Smh this definitely explained one aspect perfectly
I can't STAND when power scalers say "relative to" you mean "relatively equal to." "Relative to" doesn't mean anything other than they're being compared.
Power scalers killed power scaling.
i think the problem is that dragon ball has NEVER been good about power scaling because it has always just been about who hits hardest and moves fastest which leads to uninteresting fights. at this point trying to think about power scaling in any media is just stupid and should barely factor into entertainment value, especially if you treat it like a science
I don't think it's stupid to care about power scaling, when the original series spent, what, 20 volumes telling us that power scaling was all that mattered? Sure, power scaling is linear and uninteresting. But it's all we had for all of that time. This isn't a problem with the fans, this is a problem with the series. And when DBS goes and tries to shove power scaling under the carpet, I don't think that really fixes the problem. As that effectively shoves all those years of narrative under the carpet too. It's kind of hard to expect the fanbase to make that kind of transition. For some, it's impossible. We're just too used to how things used to work.
Scaling matters in every series because how close a fight is scaling wise basically determines a match up youd actually wanna see. Gogeta and Vegito have no real reason to actually fight, but its one of the most heavily debated fights in DB. Same with Cell vs Dabura and Jiren vs Broly.
Scaling also helps raise the stakes in the series. If Madara didnt scale above the entire Allied Shinobi Forces, nobody would be terrified of him nor would his resurrection be considered threatening. But the fact we know he is above the Kage, solo stomps the Shinobi Forces as well as Naruto and Sasuke and then on top of that obtaining 10 Tails, the stakes couldnt have possibly been made higher during the War Arc and thats thanks to Scaling
would you be interested in making an in-depth what if video about the entire bobobo cast vs the entire dragon ball cast? how individual characters would be against each other. both manga and anime? been enjoying your videos.
I think it was said in DBZ that the androids cannot gain any more power than what they were built with.
we did it boys, we finished the video
Here, let me explain how power scaling works:
Plot.
That's it, thanks for coming to my TED talk
To be fair Piccolos orange form makes sense, its heavily implied he got the power of king Piccolo added to him making him fully complete. Basically hes a Super Namkeian
Could it not just be Piccolo getting his potential unlocked like Gohan did?
@@spacepillow It could be but the Something Extra line, plus the fact his form looks like King Piccolo makes me think its something else.
hm yeah, that would be cool. I honestly didn't really notice that it looks like King Piccolo. Just looks wide to me lol.@@maxharper3737
I mean, King Piccolo, someone who isnt even half the strength of Raditz making Piccolo TUI Goku or UE Vegeta level makes no sense lol. The actual reason is the Dragon Balls and Shenron and his inner potential, which still isnt great but it makes WAY more sense than that
Actually the show filled the gap of why Roshi became so strong. It was his amorous desires that were holding him back from this greatness 😂
I feel like all the shortcuts Dragon Ball takes now with powering up characters, just makes the story worse because it essentially robs them of the journey.
Nowadays they dont even introduce unique shortcuts, in Z you had stuff like Namekian Fusion, the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, or Gravity Training, Nowadays they just do basic asf training in a grassy wasteland and SOMEHOW obtain 100x or more strength from it in an absurdly short amount of time
The Buu Saga killed power scaling, Super just lit in on fire and danced on it.
Super was a mess. Goku and Vegeta just get stupidly strong but don't really learn or do anything new. All these random Sayians going super with minimal effort. It was supposed to be legendary but how easily everyone is going super makes it seem like all people needed was a bad day at work to trigger it.
You can also hide power levels so numerical power levels are basically meaningless.
Power will always be irrevocably broken. Before Raditz arrived, characters could already destroy the moon. Where do you go from there when you need to animate a fight? Like, moon breaking energy can't scratch Nappa, but you want me to belive that this punch that does cause damage to him doesn't immediately vaporize the entire earth? Yeah, the punch is connecting with Nappa, not the ground, but the ground is right the heck there and we're dealing with thousands of times more energy than it takes to blow up the moon. Then we get quadrillions upon quadrillions upon quadrillions of times stronger when Super rolls around, and you want me to accept that these punches don't instantly create a black hole the size of several galaxies?! And the animations we see on screen are no different visually than what we had at the beginning of Namek.
Don't get me wrong. It's all a ton of fun and I love it. But it can't possibly make a lick of narrative sense.
Agreed. I really like Dragonball back in the day, but I have no interest to revisit the series because the mechanics of the world just make little sense to me and I know just how absurd it gets. Energy is energy and bad guys should really not hold back when they aim to kill, so where does all that extra energy go for extra attacks? Are the good guys just that proficient with Ki control that they can neutralize the local effects on the world?
It's interesting to listen to people talk about these shows, but I find stories with more limited and interesting power systems entertaining.
Toriyama himself doesn’t put much thought into power scaling himself. He just writes what he thinks will make an interesting story.
DBS power scalling is the dumbest thing about it. It's so absurd its laughable
Here's something to think about:
During the Cell saga, Cell got so desperate he decided to blow himself up to destroy Earth and Goku had to teleport him to Kai's planet to avoid that.
During the Buu saga, Vegeta blew himself up to kill Majin Buu. It didn't work, but what matters is that even back in the Saiyan saga, Vegeta was able to blow up Earth with a power level of just 18000, and here he's supposed to have a power level in the billions. And yet, despite putting all his power into this suicide attack, the explosion he causes from blowing himself up -- despite him being stronger than Cell at that point -- is no bigger than when Nappa nuked some cities for fun. In fact, Majin Buu does the same thing later on by blowing himself up and it only producers a meager mushroom cloud...and later on it's revealed Buu can just casually destroy entire planets with ordinary ki blasts that take zero effort or charge up.
The average DBZ fan's response to glaring inonsistency? Ki control.
You can't argue with idiots.
The magic wand that solves all of DragonBall's problems. Power capable of vaporizing a moon but that blast hits the Earth? Ki control. Physical attacks that should have enough kinetic energy to trash a continient when they clash? Ki control.
I would make more sense if the Universal+ level characters could just force another character into a temporary universe so they could just wreck that and not have the DragonBall's just reset battle damage.
All began when goku absorbed god into base
Power scaling: the aggressive attempt to misinterpret the important factors in good stories.
Also krillin isn’t base Goku level lol, Goku was toying with him the entire fight, remember when Goku had to where the turtle outfit and couldn’t even transform and still bodied krillin? And was holding back significantly
Honestly the power scaling stopped mattering during the end of the Frieza arc. I appreciate that it tried a bit during the Android and Cell saga though. The idea being mastering super saiyan to conserve energy was great! It also setup it's own consistency for Gohan going SS2 who was inherently special for his mixed blood and from the way he was raised by Chi-Chi to be peaceful. It made perfect sense that Gohan was the only Saiyan that could ever possibly reach the realm of SS2! Then you know; Buu saga and SS2 just being another capstone for Goku/Vegeta despite ones personality being the deciding factor for it. Then SS3 existing for no reason!
To this day, I still think that the movie "Battle of the Gods" should have had Trunks and Goten as the disciples of Beerus and Whis while Goku and Vegeta worked for the Kais in the afterlife. (The same way they did against when facing off against Janemba.) I have a personal headcanon that the ToP arc would have had Goku and Vegeta return with several "old enemies" they defeated in the afterlife that would have scaled just fine.
All in a nutshell, in the beginning for Earthlings, powers were sensed and was mastered without technology until the death of Radditz. The tool to read power scales by scouters was just introduced after Bulma snagged Radditz scouter and modified it. Before that, they could always feel how big or small the power was. As time progressed with everyone getting stronger, the use of the technology was obsolete and could not measure the true power level my numeric means as even Bibadi's doohickey couldn't read the complete and rising powers of fighters as he mentioned they was hiding. In a way, I believe that technology had its limits and had not place in Dragon Ball after the Frieza Saga.
19k after one day damn, well deserved man. Time to add my view for real
I always find it amazing how when people have issues with writing or story progression the answer is always “Power Scaling Is Cringe”.
It’s just lazy writing 9/10 times imo.
The real power level is the revenues the character can generate from merchandise.
Let’s be real. Power scaling in DBZ was inconsistent at best during frieza saga and the numbers had no meaning once perfect cell arrived. The writer basically abandoned the idea of numerical power levels before then and it’s fans/shueisha giving numbers by this point.
In the Frieza saga it wasn’t inconsistent at all, you were always able to say who was stronger and why
Power scaling was always bs,but yeah super just destroyed all the logic and reason.
I will say just if you didn’t notice Goku going Blue against Krillin was him testing him to see how he would handle that sort of pressure and intensity because in the tournament there would be multiple people on SSB level. That why we see Krillin shaking at first but then calms himself down to face SSB Goku. SSB also offers extreme Ki control so he could’ve been SSJ2 level for all we know
The problem with this it addresses like a lot of these problems originated in super were in fact z had many problems like this way before super. It would of been better if the bud was about db bad power scaling over the years
@@SD-wj9bv tbh z had the problems but it was lest obvious. If goku is in ssj2 vs ssj3, we know that he is either restraining himself or actually going all out. Ssb, that level of power decides what it wants to be. Z was simple but still logical and easy to follow. With some suspension of disbelief. At most the problems really became noticeable in buu arc.
@@terrakage4462 I really think that’s all it is. Z was just easier to understand power wise. When in Super they introduced multiple ways of someone getting stronger even in a weaker form. What I think most ppl just don’t understand
@@kaienglish271 who’s getting stronger in a weaker a form in super?
@@terrakage4462 I’m just saying z was no where near perfect in the power scaling department and I definitely agree dragon ball super has the worst scaling when it comes to the anime. It’s just more noticeable in super, but the main point is the complaints about characters shouldn’t be able to fight this one guy and then all of sudden get substantial
power boost is not a new concept to the story. Example in the anime everybody was complaining that future trunks was able to fight goku black and called it shit power scaling, but in z u had gohan who was no match for recoom who isn’t even 10% of first form freiza but in a couple of hours out of nowhere he can damage second form freiza when Neil couldn’t even put a scratch on this guy in he’s first form and may I remind u Neil was stronger than gohan that fought recom
Frezia gaining strength off just mental image training make sense for the fact frezia has a number of psychic abilities and is probably unconsciously or consciously boosting himself thru his psychic abilities kind of like mob psycho or the myriad of other esper type fighters we see in anime.