Great interview brother. Dr.White has been crucial and vital to our family Christian walk. God has used him mightily. I li e in Orange Park byw. I have to visit your congregation brother You too are a blessing to many of us.
Just wanted to say Ive always respected Doc White, but ive recently come across debates from Doc from yearrrrrrrrrs ago, like light years ago, and even then, White Beard (no beard but head of hair at the time) 😅 was slammin down truth and sharp as a tac. My respect leveled up so high after seeing his defenses in action decades ago. Salute!
I love your comedy videos! I also enjoyed your conversation with Leighton. I hope you're aware Dr. White's standard rhetoric like "corridors of time", "unknown group of people", and "reading John 6:45 backwards into 6:44" are constantly refuted by Leighton and not at all what most Provisionists or Arminians believe. Glad you're talking to those on different sides of the isle. God bless
James White is truly a master at humble-brag gaslighting, chocking any opposition off to emotional refusal to submit to God’s word… aka James’s opinion.
@@GodCreatedManyForHell-nh2qp I know, who gets emotional about chuck'in baby's into hell or creating most of your image bearers to be reprobates, eternally being destroyed, somehow glorifying the calvinist god...🤔🤔😦😦🙄🙄
My dad and pastor are very emotional about Calvinism. My pastor said “the Calvinist god is evil.” My dad told me not to date a Calvinist (this is before I became one). I understand where they are coming from, but the funny thing is that the very things they hate about Calvinism are (if not misconceptions)often times what drove me to accept this theology.
If Calvinism is true then that comment is definitely not true. Gods infallible decree is what made you a Calvinist. In Calvinism NOTHING comes about unless infallibly decreed by God. If you don’t know that then you’re not only following unbiblical traditions of men but you don’t even know the traditions that you follow…….
@@HaroldZwingleyDid you actually listen to the debate? White is the premier gas lighting debater. If he can't defend his position, he resorts to personal attacks or demeaning comments about his opponent. YT comments that sound harsh are mostly based on passed experiences with Calvinists who more often then not, look down on anyone who disagrees with their TULIP theology.
Just remember we non-calvinist’s would say the same thing… that calvinist’s are stuck in their traditions. At some level we are all beholden to our traditions. Our goal should be to recognize our traditions and look past them.
Take a moment and think if you would be on non-elected side and reading Gospel. Logical, not emotional conclusion is that God is a monster....or that theology is flawed.
being chosen is not the gospel and you can know you have eternal life if you believe the gospel with all of your heart Everybody Needs To Believe In There Heart The Gospel Message That Saves The real power is in the gospel according to God, it only has the power to set a person free from the bondage of sin and death. Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). THE ONLY GOSPEL THAT SAVES YOUR SOUL, PAUL SPEAKING Moreover, brethren, I declared unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand, by which also you are saved if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Believe in your heart that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and that God raised Jesus from the dead. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. The gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16). It is not based on human traditions, rituals, or works, but on the finished work of Christ on the cross. He died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Romans 5:8-10 KJV But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. The Saving Blood Of Christ Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Dr. White, why will you not meet and discuss issues directly with Leighton Flowers in a spirit of mutual respect? He is constantly inviting to meet with you.
Controling the narrative is whites entire shtick. He is skilled like as a master politician. Any question can be redirected into any answer he needs. Sad to say, unlike Foskey and Flowers, JW seems to have little intrest in getting to the truth. Its all about winning the debate. Just one mans opinion.
The Truth? Light has no fellowship with darkness . Everyone needs to stop pretending we all get along . Christ has enemies and calvanism is one of them
I'm sure that James White has heard that position and he just chooses to ignore it and assume the Calvinist understanding of foreknew in that passage. Granted, I've seen several non-Calvinists try to deal with that passage even while granting that view, but I don't see how we can be true to the text and accept the Calvinist view of the foreknown ones in that passage. It just doesn't fit what Paul is saying.
@@person6768 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. It's interesting that "his own" didn't receive him. How are they his own if he didn't pick them to be his own? And then how is it that the ones he picked didn't receive him? But then there is this thing about those that he gave power to become the sons of God. It sure looks like it is those who received him and believe that he gave that power to. And it was those which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. I love how context kills Calvinism.
@@gracemercywrath8767 That’s a fact, and White knows it. He doesn’t want his followers to know the true interpretation of anything because it’s so easy to understand and it makes so much sense that many would repent of their Calvinism and stop listening to him. I’ve never heard him tell the truth about what most non Calvinists believe…… That’s why he won’t have conversations with non Calvinists who actually know the Bible. He has to stick to his formal debates where a mediator will keep his opponents from pressing him on actual points of contention. The man won’t even allow comments on his channel….
Another Great Video! As a Calvinist what would you say is the minimum understanding for someone to be justified. Can an Arminian be justified, what about a Catholic?
I love Dr. White, but I seriously question if he has ever read any historic, scholastic Arminians. He certainly doesn’t address Arminius’ actual beliefs from the primary sources, nor does he address any other historic, scholastic Arminian arguments from their primary sources.
I like how he said you have to disconnect John 44 and 45. Why? They are clearly connected in the context of the passage. That is the issue, you have one of the leading consistent Calvinist on the planet telling you to pluck passages out of an entire chapter and understand it by itself. Context and Calvinism do not go together. You must be taught by one who desires for you to see it the way they think you should, not the way it was intended to be.
Listen to what he said there again. He’s saying that those who deny reformed soteriology are forced to make these disconnections, and he speaks against that. Please be more intellectually honest rather than quote-mining people you disagree with.
@@adamjett7947yes you’re right I think, kind of hard to tell as he is jumping back and forth and not clarifying when he makes the switch. The point stands that you do have to pluck passages to believe Calvinism. You have to dodge so many scriptures in order to believe it. Like the scripture “God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance” yet Calvinist will say actually no God you don’t desire that for everyone we actually think you only desire a small few, the elect. You have to stand firmly against easy to understand teaching in order to stand firmly with harder to understand passages.
I was predestined not to be a Calvinist, although I want to be a Calvinist😢 who wouldn't want to be on the right side? Not me, God only wants me there. I can't do anything about it, I will remain a provisionist.
Man that really sucks, I feel very sorry for you that God ordained you to harden your heart against the beautiful doctrines of grace. Maybe if I pray for you? Oh wait nevermind I cannot change what God predetermined for you 😂
Talkin' Calvinism with James White 1. James White at 0:39 - 1:18: "If you can be dispassionate about Romans 8, you might want to take up selling life insurance or something like that because it's been described by so many people as the capstone of Christianity, the pinnacle, the highest, I mean that section about the golden chain and then the law court and who can separate us from the love of Christ. It's hard it's hard to think of anything in the New Testament that could eclipse it as far as the depth of revelation, you know, and then he finishes the chapter just with praise. I means what else can you say?" 2. Romans 8:22-25 (NASB): "For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it." 3. From the Bible Study Tools webpage /dictionary/hope/; Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Hope: Hope - To trust in, wait for, look for, or desire something or someone; or to expect something beneficial in the future. 4. John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, A. Book III, Chapter 21, No. 5 "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." [Beveridge translation, P. 568, ntslibrary website, Institutes of the Christian Religion, pdf page 576 of 944] B. Book III, Chapter 21, No. 7? "We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his PLEASURE one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his PLEASURE to doom to destruction." [Beveridge translation, P. 571, ntslibrary website, Institutes of the Christian Religion, pdf page 579 of 944] 5. Questions: A. If, according to the Institutes of the Christian Religion, God has determined by an eternal decree who is admitted to salvation and who is doomed to destruction, where does "in hope we have been saved" mentioned in Romans 8:24 fit in? B. Since (A) God has predetermined either salvation or destruction for everyone and (B) St. Paul hopes for what he does not see and eagerly awaits in perseverance for it, then (C) has God withheld from St. Paul the absolute certainty of his decreed divine election? C. Or is hope just a euphemism and St. Paul already has knowledge and absolute certainty of his divine election to salvation? D. If yes, then might it have been more accurate and revealing for St. Paul in Romans 8: 24 to be paraphrased as: "In divine election I am saved, there is really no need for hope since I have been granted absolute certitude, since who hopes for what God already has decreed for him?"
Don’t expect real answers to real questions. Like how God’s moral will doesn’t contradict God sovereign will. It just does but if you say enough words you confuse the questioners away from the original axiom, and sound puffed up while doing so
1. That's a hot stove you turned on. 2. If James White exalts Romans 8 according to an Institutes interpretation, I simply had to ask questions, since, after all, isn't part of a Reformed Baptist theologian's ministry to provide answers to inquirers?
@@annakimborahpa lol no way it’s just “who knows the script best” in as such James white is elevated to the high ranks of reformed baptists because it’s clear he practices the script so thoroughly. So you really aren’t interacting with a human being anymore, more of a highly trained NPC. It’s very sad actually. Can’t imagine having real discourse with someone like that.
Hey Mr. Fosky I have a question I am considering applying at a summer camp known as camp Geneva. It is on Lake Michigan in the state of Michigan. It is a camp in the reformed tradition however, they seem to have no issue with allowing women preachers. I do not know if there will be one THIS year. All I know is that last year they did have one woman speaker on one hand. This seems like a good opportunity and there is some solid biblical teaching, but on the other hand, I don’t want to do it if it’s a sin what would you recommend?
Hey there. Just in case Brother Foskey doesn't see this, I would say, as a fellow Reformed Baptist, that we don't have a problem with women speakers, just women pastors. Women can give speeches, they just can't stand as teachers of God's word to men. If this place has solid Reformed teaching, which I don't know, but the name Geneva sugests they are pretty openly Reformed, then I'd go and be edified. If they are relating their ministry to Calvin's Geneva, I'd say they are orthodox with the way they handle women "pastors." At any rate, I'd investigate, and only if they openly admit they accept women as pastors would I reject the trip.
There's a huge difference between a woman speaker at a conference or camp and a woman holding the office of pastor or preaching to the congregation on Sunday morning. Some people get this confused and some have a bit of different views. Woman pastors are wrong. A woman speaking at a camp is a different story. Just my thoughts. Of course I don't know the exact scenario but hopefully some helpful distinction. By the way, I have a dear brother in Christ up in the Michigan area who is a reformed baptist.
8:08 - “only the Spirit of God can give some one the desire to be submitted to Gods truth…”” correct! but ONLY after the person has accepted the Gospel, the free gift of eternal life otherwise the will experience more wrath because they have rejected
The word for "predestination" is literally "predefine", meaning to set the boundaries thereof beforehand. If the end-result group are not specific individuals, then the boundaries of the group were not defined beforehand, and the Scripture is false. Of course, the Scripture is not false.
I really struggle with those who claim Jesus Christ's sacrificial work is for every single person to have ever lived, live, and will live on this planet. There are billions who have lived and died who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ.... Goodness me, that in itself is the evidence that God, through Jesus Christ, has a specific people for whom the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ is applied, the elect, those given to Jesus, by The Father, as Jesus said... Have I missed something here...
Not only did JW give the weakest for if his opponents argument, he also claimed he knew their motives as “not honoring” the word of God and holding to their own traditions. Projecting much?
@HaroldZwingley did you actually listen to the debate? Do you know what projecting means? James White claimed he knew his opponents motives. He doesn’t. That’s just facts. He also claimed his opponent was holding to tradition instead of Gods word without admitting his view his steeped in historical tradition, and not from the Bible. Good day!
Foreknowledge precedes predestination. Those who God knows personally and relationally, are predestined and called. It doesn't say then in the passage, but it clearly says also. God only personally and relationally knows those who love God (romans 8:28).
@HaroldZwingley The Greek word for foreknow means to know in advance. Scripture says that God knows those who love him (this is relational). Out of this context of being foreknown, the scriptures say that God predestined. That is why scripture says in romans 8:28 that all things work out for the good of those who love him. For those who he foreknew (speaking of those who love him), he predestined. Conjecture is to come to the passage by redefining words such as foreknow, with the idea of being foreloved, before a person knows God. God doesn't have to look through the corridors of time in order to look at the fallen race in order to decide to choose some. Rather he foreknows, for his love is eternal. Those who love him, are eternally known by him. We also don't need to make up ideas of being predestined to believe, for the passage already states the object of his predestination is to the conformity of Christ (sanctification), for those who love God. So what point do you gather from the text? For if you conclude that foreknowledge is relational, then the text is Arminian in nature. For example if you said you knew your wife, but your wife didn't know you. Then I wouldn't believe you. But if you said that you were married, then I would assume that you mutually know each other. Now let's say out of marriage, you have many prepared plans. Such as vacations, date nights, and to have more children. That would be an example of what I'm sharing. Now let's say your wife was 12, and you went up to her to tell her that you will drag her to be your wife. That you will cause her to love you, and bear children together. And lastly she had no choice in the matter, for she will find you irresistible. That is the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism when it comes to predestination. For in Arminianism, predestination flows from one's union with Christ. And entails the whole life of the Christian, not a singular moment of becoming a Christian.
James White is off base here on Romans 8-9. Basically, no one in the church interpreted those passages in a Calvinistic way until later Augustine 400+ years later. That’s just a fact. Even other Reformers - including Luther - didn’t see those passages in a Calvinistic way.
Yes, imagine the horrors of responding emotionally to being taught in your church or whatever the setting was, that your cherished belief that God actually loves the world and wants to save everyone is not true, but he has only selected certain people before the foundation of the world to be saved, and nothing we can do can change that. Calvinists would be hilarious if their doctrine wasn’t so horrific.
The issue is that us in the west tend to make it say how we would mean it if we said it instead of what they would mean. For example, so many people talk about Matthew 24 as the end of the world but Jesus did not say world but age. However, most people think that He was talking about the end of the world when in actuality, He was talking about the end of the age that they were in (which happened around 70 AD). Most times, in the NT times, when they said world, they mean all kinds of people, not every single individual on the planet. They were extremely divided by Jews and Gentiles. Thus, John was emphasizing that God loves all the different kinds of people on the earth, not just the Jews (I say John as it is most likely that John added that commentary after Jesus' talk). Please note that I am not a calvinist who believes that you must be a calvinist to be saved. All this soteriology talk is just trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of how salvation work, not what we must do to be saved.
Calvinism isn’t horrific. It’s only horrific on the surface if you don’t actually think things through. I used to think Calvinism was horrible, but then I started to realize that MY concept of God and the world was not only impossible, but also problematic in even worse ways! Some of the arguments non Calvinists use against Calvinism sound like the arguments atheists use against theism! In the end, we ALL have to learn to trust in God, even for things that don’t make any sense to us. That’s true for both Calvinists and Provisionists.
I've thought through Calvinism plenty, and find it horrific. What are some of the arguments non Calvinists use that sound like arguments atheists use against theism. I actually find some arguments Calvinists use sound like arguments skeptics would use. Interesting. @@gigahorse1475
@@gigahorse1475 I’ve thought through Calvinism plenty and find it horrific. What non Calvinist arguments do you find sound like arguments atheists use against theists, because I find some of the arguments Calvinists use sound like arguments religious skeptics would use? Interesting
@@DMilbury Atheists start from the same mindset: judge God. So God according to them is evil cause he ordered infants to be killed in the OT, God is evil cause he puts people in Hell eternally for a finite crime, God is evil cause he never forbade slavery explicitly, it’s evil to follow God if he orders to sacrifice your child like Abraham was willing to, and the list goes on and on and on. Same happens with the whole anti-Calvinism stuff: evil! Evil! Evil! Evil! As if God is some sort of man you can simply accuse. Who has the known the mind of the Lord was said for a reason
@@redfrozensevenI don’t know if I was in this room at this time chatting. I do recall walking in and seeing this interview take place, but I may have left the room right away or hung around and visited with some others. I just don’t remember exactly.
JW - Soteriology and the gospel is like tying a bowtie ... Lace it up the correct way and it is beautiful and simplistic. Tie it up through Calvinism hoops and it becomes the knot of mental gymnastics.
Paul might be speaking of the firstwave Jews in Romans 8, or more precisely the firstfruits church comprised mostly of Jews but some Gentiles too, as he calls it "the present time." The later full harvest Church which exists to our present time is mostly comprised of Gentiles, and ever more nations and ethnicities, but precious few of God's original chosen people, who will come in before the end. All things obey the seed process in the kingdom, as the parable states, some 30, some 60 and some 100 fold. Without this revelation, you're stuck in these 16th century debates. To paraphrase the Lord, the many are called, but a few are chosen.
4:48 - is simple, God knows exactly who is who, but He still gives the opportunity to either accept or reject. God is not going to be held accountable.
@@HaroldZwingley You, just like everyone frontloading and presuposing what is said. You also misunderstood. Paul indeed had an opportunity to either accept or reject the call. Just like the religious leaders and many gentiles did in rejecting the Holy Spirit of God. Paul also had the chance but Paul chose wise, he yield to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and accepted the call. Thats it! Do you think Paul was forced to accept the call or Paul willingly and wisely accepted the call?
@sationswithaCalvinist Sorry Keith, My bad, thank you for checking. I thought a comment was missing. I am very sorry. Would it be better if I deleted the original accusation. Again, very sorry.
@@garyboulton2302 That is irrelevant & hyperbolic to suggest that. God sent His Son to redeem any, all, everyone that will & CAN call upon Jesus for salvation to undo the sting of death via sin, via the enemy of God going after His greatest creation...us. Created in God's image & likeness as volitional beings with free moral agency to have genuine fellowship Koinonia personal relationship with Him. " To the Serpent God said "Because you have done this, you are cursed..." (read thru 3:15 the proto evangelium). Hence the evil of Calvinism. 👿 "Hath God indeed said? Surely he doesn't want all to come to repentance? Surely Hell was prepared for most of mankind & not just for me & my Angels? Surely only an arbitrary pre-chosen elect will irresistibly turn to Christ & all others are vessels made for destruction by the Father's divine decree so he can get his glory fix... would I ever lie?"
@@hmv1405 I'm not Arminian. Jacob Arminius studied under Theodore Beza an All-in Calvinist. He praised Calvin many times in his writings & publicly. He taught a total depravity like Calvin. Also, that you could loose your salvation from sinning/poor performance. Arminianism is not the polar opposite of Calvinism. It appears you've been fed bushels of TULIPS (just having fun, but maybe the wooden shoe fits?). I preach those vs' you listed, but in the proper context. Look what you've bought into: Only an arbitrary pre-chosen elect will irresistibly turn to Christ consequently all others can't, they have been made vessels for destruction & their eternal torment brings God glory?? But ME, I'M CHOSEN, I'M ONE OF GOD'S SPECIALLY FAVORED ELITE ELECT... FOR HIS GLORY HE CHOSE ME. Your missing the point of the Bible. God sent His Son to redeem any, all, everyone that will & CAN call upon Jesus for salvation. To deliver all who will graciously accept His atonement (for the world 1 John 2:2) from the sting of death via sin. Read Genesis 3:14-15, the proto evangelium. It is egoic & cult-like to teach: "Only an arbitrary few of us elect will be irresistibly regenerated. Yep, us & no one else Calvin said so. Forget the scriptures that say all can be saved/redeemed. Read what our fellow Calvinist theologians have said, that any, all, everyone, whosoever & world always means us preferred elect". All cults have a: (We are right... it's us & no one else) mentality & unbiblical teachings to go along with it. Pray, think, read the Bible & ask God if He wants any to perish?
God knows everyone before they were even born. He is God!! God pre destines only those who believe. He does not predestine people for no reason! Then, he calls everyone including the believers!! He set the criteria as he chose to do so!! Only those who believe out of all whom he called are whom he will justify and glorify. The "elect" or the "US" is a reference to the believers. Those who believe!! God did not choose individuals to not believe and others to believe. We all believe! We.all have the free gift of being able to believe. Faith is not works!! No one can boast because of having faith as faith is inward or internal. How you use the free gift of faith determines your destiny. Like our Jehova God said I have set before life or death; choose life! For God so loved the world that he gave his only son so whoever believed shall not perish but have eternal life And Whoever does NOT believe shall perish
White is the king of chaff and redirect on Romans 8. He didn't even address an actual objection to the Calvinist view. One thing that really caused me to struggle with Romans 8 was that word "for" in Romans 8:29. A former pastor always used to like to say, "when you see the word 'for' go back and see what it's there for." But when I went back, it took me to Romans 8:28, which begins with "And we know." So, clearly, Romans 8:29 and following is explaining why we know that that all things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to his purpose. But Romans 8:29 and following has all of this past tense stuff. I know that I haven't been glorified yet and it doesn't appear that the people Paul was writing to had been glorified yet, so it doesn't seem to be such an obvious statement about people that God knew before the foundation of the world. It was typically explained away by saying that Paul was using past tense because it was so certain to be done that in the mind of God it was already seen as done. But where that fell flat it because Paul was writing to people who hadn't experienced glorification, and he was actually giving them assurance that things would eventually work out. It didn't make sense to use as justification of his claim the very thing that he was claiming. We call that begging the question. But then someone pointed out something that cleared up the whole passage. It doesn't actually say that "those he foreknew" is referring to his foreknowledge before the foundation of the world. It just has to be people that where known by God prior to Paul writing Romans. When Paul wrote this, the term "foreknow" didn't have the theological baggage that it has today; it simply meant that these were people that God knew (in a salvific sense here, I believe) in times past. So my next question was, do we have people that God knew previously that we can point to as having gone all the way through the "golden chain." In fact, we do. Moses and Elijah. We see them in a glorified state on the mount of transfiguration. God knew them in the past (those he foreknew), he saved them before Jesus died for them (he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son), he called them to serve him (those he called), he justified them and he glorified them. So, if we look to them and others from the old testament as evidence to support Paul's claim in Romans 8:28, we can look at Romans 8:28 and say that we have reason to believe that all things will work for the good of us who love God and are called into his service today. We know this because the Bible provides us with examples of God doing it for others, even predestinating them to be conformed to something that hadn't take place yet, for them. Romans 8 make much more sense when you remove the Calvinist lenses.
@@aletheia8054, I'm not sure if you are saying that to agree with me or disagree with me. I'll point out, however, that in verse 18 uses the phrasing, "glory shall be revealed in us", which makes it clear that Paul doesn't see himself or the people he writing to as having been glorified yet. The fact that Paul connects so much of this with conjunctions doesn't mean that everything he says is about the same people. All it really indicates is that this is a continuous thought in his head.
@@TimothyFish “ when you see the word four go back and look what it’s therefore” Well, if you go back from verse 29 and 28 it goes all the way back to verse 16 which tells you what is there for In Greek, they’re called subordinating and coordinating conjunctions
@@aletheia8054, okay, but it doesn't really change what I said. You can pull in all of that, if you like, and it is still true that it is the OT saints that provide the reason for us to believe that it is true. Calvinism needs the foreknown ones to be everyone who has been and will be saved, but that doesn't fit the text.
@Scribeintheink, Ephesians 1:4 is uses the phrase "us in him." Unless you are going to try to make the case that we were already in Christ before the foundation of the world then it doesn't work for you. If we are placed in Christ when we believe (Ephesians 1:13), then the choice that occurred before the foundation of the world was the selection of a category of people who would be in Christ at some point in the future.
One question worth asking the proponents of the free will of man, over the will of God, is to ask them why they pray for anyone? Other than the obvious command to pray.... what is the purpose of praying for someone's salvation? Does your prayer have some mistical power to persuade the individual? No.... you are ultimately praying that the Will of God overcome the will of man. I think it's great arrogance to believe that you, and your freewill repented and believed, but that man over there.... he needs prayer for his salvation. Or that you repented and believed in your freedom to do so, while the next man did not..... you obtain salvation, while the next man did not. It's really just a great amount of arrogance. Just some random consideration.
But if God has already decreed that it will be... What good will prayer do? Since before Esau or Jacob did good or evil God had already decided... Why should Esau pray to God then? Doesn't your logic indict the Calvinistic system? For how can anyone say anything apart for what God has decreed them to say or do?
You're assuming Calvinist soteriology when referring to how an Arminian or Provisionist would pray for a lost person. Since we don't view soteriology through a Calvinist lens, that is not how we pray. We pray assuming God moves on behalf of his people when they pray, that he cares for all the lost, that he is capable of drawing people to himself, and that people have the ability to put their faith in Christ when presented with the gospel. The original commenter has it completely backwards. There is absolutely no point in praying for anybody, or anything on determinism. Everything is set in stone and can not be changed, rendering prayer useless. If you do pray, you were determined to do that too.@@Cattleman16479
If you think Calvinism is not deterministic, I think you better study up on Calvinism. Monergism is the Calvinist view of soteriology, not the Arminian view. @@Cattleman16479
@@SOG323 What good would prayer do? We have a desire that everyone be saved. And we desire that so God may be Glorified... Chiefly. And that His will be done. That's why we pray.
@@Cattleman16479 And you seem to miss the point that on Calvinism, whether you pray or not has been determined by God from eternity past. You are effectively just a character in a story book. You cannot do other than God has determined you will do so even praying becomes pointless becaause it wasn't your choice to pray or not at any given moment
Why are people still calling James White “Dr?” - It’s been refuted for years that he does not have a real doctorate degree. -I am thankful for his ministry-but this whole “Dr” thing is dishonest. Come on now.
In the vast majority of fields of tertiary study these days, academic accreditation is so corrupt as to be meaningless. He deserves the honorific as much as anyone coming out of an accredited institution these days. It's a pity that recent events have prevented him from completing his CBGM work with North-West University in South Africa - it would have put all of this to silliness bed.
He did the work to get the degree. Just because the school doesn’t meet a set of standards set by some governing body doesn’t mean the degree is worthless and we shouldn’t call him “doctor.” His body of work proves that he deserves the title and didn’t receive a degree unworthily from a scam school or “diploma mill.”
8:05 Dr. James rightly concludes the whole sum of the difference between Exhaustive Self Determinists, ie Provisionists and ilk, and the elect sons of Gods understanding of Truth in Gods Holy Writ. The "Spirit of God." No Spirit: No Truth. Unregenerates Cannot Understand Truth Once an elect son of God has been born again from above by the power of Gods effectual grace, and MADE a utterly new creature in Christ, and given the Spirit of Truth, it's natural to believe everyone else has the same wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of Gods Word as you now do. Yea, you cannot see that they do not see, and it frustrates you. All Gods elect are given, supernaturally, spiritual Truth by the Spirit. The Spirit is Truth. John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, 1 John 4:6, 5:6. Here, the same happened with Moses. He "supposed others would understand what Truth he was given by God, but they couldn't." Acts 7:25 KJV - For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
Don’t you know only the OVERLY emotional interpret John 3:16 to be….”for God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. No one besides crazy emotional pelagians would interpret it to be whoever and not THE ELECT.
Why did God have to come to fulfill His predestinated end if all He had to do was call who He already elected before the world began? Your be-all and end-all us that calling comes after predestination. I mean, just send more prophets out and continue to call that way, if the calling is the be-all and end-all. You're missing the fall of man in between. You're missing the fact that man went His own way, which He ALLOWED them to do to, giving them free will. Giving them free will is the only way justice and accountability comes into account. Without free will Gid is the author of good AND evil, yet you are so blind to this. You all act like there is no other actions God had to take in order for man, who are prone to fall, to get to where He wants us to go. No, not because man left Him no other choice but for LOVES sake. It isn't love if you control a beings will, that's more like what a captor would do. That's why I don't believe Calvin. Even if I did I wouldn't be known as a Calvinist, that's heretic. Read Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:12-13 King James Version 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
@Scribeintheink What did you read into when Abraham approached God on Him being just? Genesis 18:24-32 King James Version 24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? God is Just and the justifier of them that believe on the Son of God. Romans 3:26 King James Version 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. I will have you know I am in Christ no matter when I believe I am regenerated, as I love Him, believe He is God and I live by Him, as He lives by the will of His Father, our Father. You don't have to accept what I say, I am just a messenger sent amd as such Iook to edify my brothers and sisters.
God has predestined that whosoever will believe in His Son (the Gospel) will be saved (Eph 1:13). Jesus is the ONLY Person who reveals the Father, so He doesn't know you unless you first have belief in His Son. Matthew 11:27 KJV ... *_neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him._* Luke 10:22 KJV … and no man knoweth … *_who the Father is, but the Son,_* and he to whom the Son will reveal him. John 14:6 NASB95 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; *_no one comes to the Father but through Me._* Mark 16:15-16 KJV And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and *_preach the gospel to every creature._* [16] *_He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned._*
When James White clings to a strict reading on John 6 it’s exegesis. When a *woman* clings to plain words in John 3, it’s female emotionalism and eisegesis. 🤦🏻♂️ Per usual.
James White is one of those false teachers that Saint Paul warned us about! Holy Scripture teaches we shall each be judged as we have judged others and we shall each be held accountable for every careless word we have uttered and shall each be liable to judgment if angry with others and we shall each receive recompense for BOTH the good AND THE BAD we have done in the body on judgment day and we must all strive for that holiness without which no one shall see the Lord! James White says none of this True! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
LOL...all Calvinists want to do is talk about Romans 8! So weak! So, Romans is to be read (according to White) as if it is all they are 'going to hear', then what about TODO SCRIPTURA!!!! Al of Scripture is inspired, not only the strongholds of James White's view of it all.
@@Cattleman16479 It teaches a God that made all mankind, but decided beforehand to send some of them to eternal death and some to eternal life. It's farsical. And entirely against the teachings of the Bible. The doctrine of election is foisted onto scripture and it's a terrible, even blasphemous error.
notice how Keith said it's nice to see James, But James doesn't give him a cordial greeting. I really want to like him but he's such an arrogant jerk and will never admit if he's wrong about something. Bring Leighton back :-) You will know them by their love....
@@TimothyFish can you honestly tell me that james treats people like the Bible says Phil 2:3 let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
@Scribeintheink redirect to flowers :) i have watched james for 3 years. I have enough to go off of with discernment. His ministry is to show that calv in wrong because it paints God as a bipolar(two wills) that damns babies to hell with no free will to repent. Very unbiblical. You say i should repent. Under calv, can I repent without a special work? Or am i born with the ability?
@@TimothyFish always? Funny when people use words like never and always. If i said I don't always beat my wife, what would you say? You should agree with me that we should not treat brothers the way he does. He does it far more in debates and videos than a christian should.
Whatever happened to the Jim White we first saw on John Ankerberg back in the 1980s? This is not the same brother. Between tattoos and joining the cool tattoos hipster Calvinists led by Jeff Durbin and friends leaves you wondering how this all happened? Talking about Islamic brotherhood Members are mentors and maintaining a friendship with false teacher and false prophet charismatic Michael Brown is indeed troubling. Plus his rep for arrogance and self importance. Popular private ministries usually are a factor in all of this.
Love both of you guys! You guys have impacted my life in so many ways!!
Ditto
Great interview brother. Dr.White has been crucial and vital to our family Christian walk. God has used him mightily. I li e in Orange Park byw. I have to visit your congregation brother
You too are a blessing to many of us.
I was predestinated to watch this.
I was predestined to comment here
Obviously. Nothing comes about but what God infallibly decrees………
No you decided yourself
@@MikeAustin-dx1ktit's not an either or. You can be predestined to watch a video, and freely decide yourself to watch it
@@carterwoodrow4805 that's free will . God didn't choose for you
The bowtie boys lol .. GOD bless you 2 ..appreciate all the content your putting out of this sir
Just wanted to say Ive always respected Doc White, but ive recently come across debates from Doc from yearrrrrrrrrs ago, like light years ago, and even then, White Beard (no beard but head of hair at the time) 😅 was slammin down truth and sharp as a tac. My respect leveled up so high after seeing his defenses in action decades ago. Salute!
I love your comedy videos! I also enjoyed your conversation with Leighton.
I hope you're aware Dr. White's standard rhetoric like "corridors of time", "unknown group of people", and "reading John 6:45 backwards into 6:44" are constantly refuted by Leighton and not at all what most Provisionists or Arminians believe.
Glad you're talking to those on different sides of the isle. God bless
Another awesome video! Thank you for your hard work and dedication!
James White is truly a master at humble-brag gaslighting, chocking any opposition off to emotional refusal to submit to God’s word… aka James’s opinion.
wow.......that was stink'in funny😂😂👊👊
Who cares what jw thinks. Just read your Bible for yourself
@@MikeAustin-dx1kt I did! So I despise Calvinism!
The whole fuel of anti-Calvinism is emotion
@@GodCreatedManyForHell-nh2qp I know, who gets emotional about chuck'in baby's into hell or creating most of your image bearers to be reprobates, eternally being destroyed, somehow glorifying the calvinist god...🤔🤔😦😦🙄🙄
My dad and pastor are very emotional about Calvinism. My pastor said “the Calvinist god is evil.” My dad told me not to date a Calvinist (this is before I became one). I understand where they are coming from, but the funny thing is that the very things they hate about Calvinism are (if not misconceptions)often times what drove me to accept this theology.
If Calvinism is true then that comment is definitely not true. Gods infallible decree is what made you a Calvinist. In Calvinism NOTHING comes about unless infallibly decreed by God. If you don’t know that then you’re not only following unbiblical traditions of men but you don’t even know the traditions that you follow…….
@@HaroldZwingleyDid you actually listen to the debate? White is the premier gas lighting debater. If he can't defend his position, he resorts to personal attacks or demeaning comments about his opponent. YT comments that sound harsh are mostly based on passed experiences with Calvinists who more often then not, look down on anyone who disagrees with their TULIP theology.
I have family members that have such emotional responses to Calvinism. I pray for them every day, but they are very stuck in their traditions.
Wdym?
Are they christians??
Just remember we non-calvinist’s would say the same thing… that calvinist’s are stuck in their traditions. At some level we are all beholden to our traditions. Our goal should be to recognize our traditions and look past them.
@@4godisholyDo you think the Synod of Dort’s outcome was correct?
Take a moment and think if you would be on non-elected side and reading Gospel. Logical, not emotional conclusion is that God is a monster....or that theology is flawed.
Thank you guys, love this.
Once we truly understand by the Holy Spirit that we have NOTHING to boast about, we start understanding the doctrines of grace.
One can never be sure they have been chosen.
God having all authority is a hard concept for the human mind.@@HaroldZwingley
being chosen is not the gospel and you can know you have eternal life if you believe the gospel with all of your heart
Everybody Needs To Believe In There Heart The Gospel Message That Saves
The real power is in the gospel according to God, it only has the power to set a person free from the bondage of sin and death.
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
(1 Corinthians 15:1-4). THE ONLY GOSPEL THAT SAVES YOUR SOUL, PAUL SPEAKING
Moreover, brethren, I declared unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand, by which also you are saved if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Believe in your heart that Jesus Christ died for your sins, was buried, and that God raised Jesus from the dead.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
The gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16).
It is not based on human traditions, rituals, or works, but on the finished work of Christ on the cross.
He died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
Romans 5:8-10 KJV
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
The Saving Blood Of Christ
Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.
Colossians 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
This wonderful interview has earned my sub 🙏🥰
Oh my goodness yes, you and Chris have to do something together!!!
Thank the Lord, His Word doesn't say , "He is faithful to finish the work I started in me"
Dr. White, why will you not meet and discuss issues directly with Leighton Flowers in a spirit of mutual respect? He is constantly inviting to meet with you.
Controling the narrative is whites entire shtick. He is skilled like as a master politician. Any question can be redirected into any answer he needs. Sad to say, unlike Foskey and Flowers, JW seems to have little intrest in getting to the truth. Its all about winning the debate. Just one mans opinion.
The Truth? Light has no fellowship with darkness . Everyone needs to stop pretending we all get along . Christ has enemies and calvanism is one of them
@@MikeAustin-dx1ktCalvinism*. At least spell it right.
Funny how I got a Harbor Freight ad before this video...😂
Wait, I want to hear the full story about the hamburger!!! What exactly happened there and what was that all about?
Brother Romans 11:2 is talking about the same people in Romans 8. Those he foreknew were OT saints.
I'm sure that James White has heard that position and he just chooses to ignore it and assume the Calvinist understanding of foreknew in that passage. Granted, I've seen several non-Calvinists try to deal with that passage even while granting that view, but I don't see how we can be true to the text and accept the Calvinist view of the foreknown ones in that passage. It just doesn't fit what Paul is saying.
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
@@person6768
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
It's interesting that "his own" didn't receive him. How are they his own if he didn't pick them to be his own? And then how is it that the ones he picked didn't receive him? But then there is this thing about those that he gave power to become the sons of God. It sure looks like it is those who received him and believe that he gave that power to. And it was those which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. I love how context kills Calvinism.
@@person6768 yes everyone who received him God did that for.
@@gracemercywrath8767 That’s a fact, and White knows it. He doesn’t want his followers to know the true interpretation of anything because it’s so easy to understand and it makes so much sense that many would repent of their Calvinism and stop listening to him. I’ve never heard him tell the truth about what most non Calvinists believe…… That’s why he won’t have conversations with non Calvinists who actually know the Bible. He has to stick to his formal debates where a mediator will keep his opponents from pressing him on actual points of contention. The man won’t even allow comments on his channel….
What is the website for the bowties? I would like to get one for my hubby who preaches.
Another Great Video! As a Calvinist what would you say is the minimum understanding for someone to be justified. Can an Arminian be justified, what about a Catholic?
I love Dr. White, but I seriously question if he has ever read any historic, scholastic Arminians. He certainly doesn’t address Arminius’ actual beliefs from the primary sources, nor does he address any other historic, scholastic Arminian arguments from their primary sources.
Ask him.
The thumbnail to this video made me laugh out loud
I like how he said you have to disconnect John 44 and 45. Why? They are clearly connected in the context of the passage. That is the issue, you have one of the leading consistent Calvinist on the planet telling you to pluck passages out of an entire chapter and understand it by itself. Context and Calvinism do not go together. You must be taught by one who desires for you to see it the way they think you should, not the way it was intended to be.
@Scribeintheink great rebuttal 👍🏼
Listen to what he said there again. He’s saying that those who deny reformed soteriology are forced to make these disconnections, and he speaks against that. Please be more intellectually honest rather than quote-mining people you disagree with.
@@adamjett7947yes you’re right I think, kind of hard to tell as he is jumping back and forth and not clarifying when he makes the switch. The point stands that you do have to pluck passages to believe Calvinism. You have to dodge so many scriptures in order to believe it. Like the scripture “God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to repentance” yet Calvinist will say actually no God you don’t desire that for everyone we actually think you only desire a small few, the elect. You have to stand firmly against easy to understand teaching in order to stand firmly with harder to understand passages.
I think you misunderstood his whole point. His point was not to pick and choose.
@@johntoddstewart2183 I mentioned in my last comment that I understand I may have been mistaken. Go take a look at the whole comment please
The thumbnail cracked me up
Where can I watch these funny intros by Chris?
I was predestined not to be a Calvinist, although I want to be a Calvinist😢 who wouldn't want to be on the right side? Not me, God only wants me there.
I can't do anything about it, I will remain a provisionist.
Man that really sucks, I feel very sorry for you that God ordained you to harden your heart against the beautiful doctrines of grace. Maybe if I pray for you? Oh wait nevermind I cannot change what God predetermined for you 😂
When / where can we watch the sessions, debates, q and a from this conference?
Talkin' Calvinism with James White
1. James White at 0:39 - 1:18: "If you can be dispassionate about Romans 8, you might want to take up selling life insurance or something like that because it's been described by so many people as the capstone of Christianity, the pinnacle, the highest, I mean that section about the golden chain and then the law court and who can separate us from the love of Christ. It's hard it's hard to think of anything in the New Testament that could eclipse it as far as the depth of revelation, you know, and then he finishes the chapter just with praise. I means what else can you say?"
2. Romans 8:22-25 (NASB): "For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it."
3. From the Bible Study Tools webpage /dictionary/hope/; Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Hope:
Hope - To trust in, wait for, look for, or desire something or someone; or to expect something beneficial in the future.
4. John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion,
A. Book III, Chapter 21, No. 5
"By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death."
[Beveridge translation, P. 568, ntslibrary website, Institutes of the Christian Religion, pdf page 576 of 944]
B. Book III, Chapter 21, No. 7?
"We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his PLEASURE one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his PLEASURE to doom to destruction."
[Beveridge translation, P. 571, ntslibrary website, Institutes of the Christian Religion, pdf page 579 of 944]
5. Questions:
A. If, according to the Institutes of the Christian Religion, God has determined by an eternal decree who is admitted to salvation and who is doomed to destruction, where does "in hope we have been saved" mentioned in Romans 8:24 fit in?
B. Since (A) God has predetermined either salvation or destruction for everyone and (B) St. Paul hopes for what he does not see and eagerly awaits in perseverance for it, then (C) has God withheld from St. Paul the absolute certainty of his decreed divine election?
C. Or is hope just a euphemism and St. Paul already has knowledge and absolute certainty of his divine election to salvation?
D. If yes, then might it have been more accurate and revealing for St. Paul in Romans 8: 24 to be paraphrased as: "In divine election I am saved, there is really no need for hope since I have been granted absolute certitude, since who hopes for what God already has decreed for him?"
Don’t expect real answers to real questions. Like how God’s moral will doesn’t contradict God sovereign will. It just does but if you say enough words you confuse the questioners away from the original axiom, and sound puffed up while doing so
1. That's a hot stove you turned on.
2. If James White exalts Romans 8 according to an Institutes interpretation, I simply had to ask questions, since, after all, isn't part of a Reformed Baptist theologian's ministry to provide answers to inquirers?
@@annakimborahpa Isn't the same Paul who wrote Ephesians, Thessalonians, Romans and Corinthians? Please get familiar with all of these passages.
Romans 8 was the topic under discussion. Do you have any answers to my four questions?
@@annakimborahpa lol no way it’s just “who knows the script best” in as such James white is elevated to the high ranks of reformed baptists because it’s clear he practices the script so thoroughly. So you really aren’t interacting with a human being anymore, more of a highly trained NPC. It’s very sad actually. Can’t imagine having real discourse with someone like that.
Hey Mr. Fosky I have a question I am considering applying at a summer camp known as camp Geneva. It is on Lake Michigan in the state of Michigan. It is a camp in the reformed tradition however, they seem to have no issue with allowing women preachers. I do not know if there will be one THIS year. All I know is that last year they did have one woman speaker on one hand. This seems like a good opportunity and there is some solid biblical teaching, but on the other hand, I don’t want to do it if it’s a sin what would you recommend?
Hey there. Just in case Brother Foskey doesn't see this, I would say, as a fellow Reformed Baptist, that we don't have a problem with women speakers, just women pastors. Women can give speeches, they just can't stand as teachers of God's word to men. If this place has solid Reformed teaching, which I don't know, but the name Geneva sugests they are pretty openly Reformed, then I'd go and be edified. If they are relating their ministry to Calvin's Geneva, I'd say they are orthodox with the way they handle women "pastors." At any rate, I'd investigate, and only if they openly admit they accept women as pastors would I reject the trip.
There's a huge difference between a woman speaker at a conference or camp and a woman holding the office of pastor or preaching to the congregation on Sunday morning. Some people get this confused and some have a bit of different views. Woman pastors are wrong. A woman speaking at a camp is a different story. Just my thoughts. Of course I don't know the exact scenario but hopefully some helpful distinction. By the way, I have a dear brother in Christ up in the Michigan area who is a reformed baptist.
@@chrisjohnson9542 thanks
8:08 - “only the Spirit of God can give some one the desire to be submitted to Gods truth…”” correct! but ONLY after the person has accepted the Gospel, the free gift of eternal life otherwise the will experience more wrath because they have rejected
Praying for that cough brother James.
The word for "predestination" is literally "predefine", meaning to set the boundaries thereof beforehand. If the end-result group are not specific individuals, then the boundaries of the group were not defined beforehand, and the Scripture is false. Of course, the Scripture is not false.
I really struggle with those who claim Jesus Christ's sacrificial work is for every single person to have ever lived, live, and will live on this planet. There are billions who have lived and died who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ.... Goodness me, that in itself is the evidence that God, through Jesus Christ, has a specific people for whom the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ is applied, the elect, those given to Jesus, by The Father, as Jesus said...
Have I missed something here...
@@HaroldZwingley Amen... According to the counsel of His will...❤
Now we need to see the king of the amills go against James White on Post mill. That would be fun.
10:00 and the crying woman saw why we disagree with calvinism :) macarthur would tell her to be quiet :)
Not only did JW give the weakest for if his opponents argument, he also claimed he knew their motives as “not honoring” the word of God and holding to their own traditions. Projecting much?
@HaroldZwingley did you actually listen to the debate? Do you know what projecting means? James White claimed he knew his opponents motives. He doesn’t. That’s just facts. He also claimed his opponent was holding to tradition instead of Gods word without admitting his view his steeped in historical tradition, and not from the Bible. Good day!
8:25 - “He chose me to be in Christ…” right, but after they have learned from the Father according to John 6:45
Where does James White find his bowties?
Good stuff lol
Link to bow tie site?
If you have difficulty speaking in tounges ...howtotieabowtie will get ya going in no time 😂 #BowTie
Foreknowledge precedes predestination. Those who God knows personally and relationally, are predestined and called. It doesn't say then in the passage, but it clearly says also. God only personally and relationally knows those who love God (romans 8:28).
@HaroldZwingley
The Greek word for foreknow means to know in advance. Scripture says that God knows those who love him (this is relational). Out of this context of being foreknown, the scriptures say that God predestined. That is why scripture says in romans 8:28 that all things work out for the good of those who love him. For those who he foreknew (speaking of those who love him), he predestined.
Conjecture is to come to the passage by redefining words such as foreknow, with the idea of being foreloved, before a person knows God. God doesn't have to look through the corridors of time in order to look at the fallen race in order to decide to choose some. Rather he foreknows, for his love is eternal. Those who love him, are eternally known by him.
We also don't need to make up ideas of being predestined to believe, for the passage already states the object of his predestination is to the conformity of Christ (sanctification), for those who love God.
So what point do you gather from the text? For if you conclude that foreknowledge is relational, then the text is Arminian in nature. For example if you said you knew your wife, but your wife didn't know you. Then I wouldn't believe you. But if you said that you were married, then I would assume that you mutually know each other. Now let's say out of marriage, you have many prepared plans. Such as vacations, date nights, and to have more children. That would be an example of what I'm sharing. Now let's say your wife was 12, and you went up to her to tell her that you will drag her to be your wife. That you will cause her to love you, and bear children together. And lastly she had no choice in the matter, for she will find you irresistible. That is the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism when it comes to predestination. For in Arminianism, predestination flows from one's union with Christ. And entails the whole life of the Christian, not a singular moment of becoming a Christian.
James White is off base here on Romans 8-9. Basically, no one in the church interpreted those passages in a Calvinistic way until later Augustine 400+ years later. That’s just a fact. Even other Reformers - including Luther - didn’t see those passages in a Calvinistic way.
Silly argument, every single denomination on the planet has doctrines that were not held by the early Church
Yes, imagine the horrors of responding emotionally to being taught in your church or whatever the setting was, that your cherished belief that God actually loves the world and wants to save everyone is not true, but he has only selected certain people before the foundation of the world to be saved, and nothing we can do can change that.
Calvinists would be hilarious if their doctrine wasn’t so horrific.
The issue is that us in the west tend to make it say how we would mean it if we said it instead of what they would mean. For example, so many people talk about Matthew 24 as the end of the world but Jesus did not say world but age. However, most people think that He was talking about the end of the world when in actuality, He was talking about the end of the age that they were in (which happened around 70 AD). Most times, in the NT times, when they said world, they mean all kinds of people, not every single individual on the planet. They were extremely divided by Jews and Gentiles. Thus, John was emphasizing that God loves all the different kinds of people on the earth, not just the Jews (I say John as it is most likely that John added that commentary after Jesus' talk).
Please note that I am not a calvinist who believes that you must be a calvinist to be saved. All this soteriology talk is just trying to figure out the nuts and bolts of how salvation work, not what we must do to be saved.
Calvinism isn’t horrific. It’s only horrific on the surface if you don’t actually think things through. I used to think Calvinism was horrible, but then I started to realize that MY concept of God and the world was not only impossible, but also problematic in even worse ways!
Some of the arguments non Calvinists use against Calvinism sound like the arguments atheists use against theism!
In the end, we ALL have to learn to trust in God, even for things that don’t make any sense to us. That’s true for both Calvinists and Provisionists.
I've thought through Calvinism plenty, and find it horrific.
What are some of the arguments non Calvinists use that sound like arguments atheists use against theism. I actually find some arguments Calvinists use sound like arguments skeptics would use. Interesting.
@@gigahorse1475
@@gigahorse1475 I’ve thought through Calvinism plenty and find it horrific.
What non Calvinist arguments do you find sound like arguments atheists use against theists, because I find some of the arguments Calvinists use sound like arguments religious skeptics would use? Interesting
@@DMilbury Atheists start from the same mindset: judge God. So God according to them is evil cause he ordered infants to be killed in the OT, God is evil cause he puts people in Hell eternally for a finite crime, God is evil cause he never forbade slavery explicitly, it’s evil to follow God if he orders to sacrifice your child like Abraham was willing to, and the list goes on and on and on. Same happens with the whole anti-Calvinism stuff: evil! Evil! Evil! Evil! As if God is some sort of man you can simply accuse.
Who has the known the mind of the Lord was said for a reason
After seeing all the video-bombing I would have been far less careful as to not video-bomb when I saw you doing an interview 😂
Where you at in the video? I thought I heard your voice
@@redfrozensevenI don’t know if I was in this room at this time chatting. I do recall walking in and seeing this interview take place, but I may have left the room right away or hung around and visited with some others. I just don’t remember exactly.
JW - Soteriology and the gospel is like tying a bowtie ... Lace it up the correct way and it is beautiful and simplistic. Tie it up through Calvinism hoops and it becomes the knot of mental gymnastics.
Paul might be speaking of the firstwave Jews in Romans 8, or more precisely the firstfruits church comprised mostly of Jews but some Gentiles too, as he calls it "the present time." The later full harvest Church which exists to our present time is mostly comprised of Gentiles, and ever more nations and ethnicities, but precious few of God's original chosen people, who will come in before the end. All things obey the seed process in the kingdom, as the parable states, some 30, some 60 and some 100 fold. Without this revelation, you're stuck in these 16th century debates. To paraphrase the Lord, the many are called, but a few are chosen.
4:48 - is simple, God knows exactly who is who, but He still gives the opportunity to either accept or reject. God is not going to be held accountable.
@@HaroldZwingley You, just like everyone frontloading and presuposing what is said. You also misunderstood.
Paul indeed had an opportunity to either accept or reject the call. Just like the religious leaders and many gentiles did in rejecting the Holy Spirit of God. Paul also had the chance but Paul chose wise, he yield to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and accepted the call.
Thats it!
Do you think Paul was forced to accept the call or Paul willingly and wisely accepted the call?
Mmm cheeseburger
That woman in Italy, compelling you to look at John 3:16 - was yet another prompting of the Holy Spirit JW, that your views on election is wrong.
Why delete those who disagree with your views? I would think you would let the light of their ignorance shine for all to see.
I have not deleted any comments.
@sationswithaCalvinist Sorry Keith, My bad, thank you for checking. I thought a comment was missing. I am very sorry. Would it be better if I deleted the original accusation. Again, very sorry.
Aren't you glad you're chosen? Too bad for most of the world, but we are chosen.
Would God be in the wrong not to save anyone?
@@garyboulton2302 That is irrelevant & hyperbolic to suggest that. God sent His Son to redeem any, all, everyone that will & CAN call upon Jesus for salvation to undo the sting of death via sin, via the enemy of God going after His greatest creation...us. Created in God's image & likeness as volitional beings with free moral agency to have genuine fellowship Koinonia personal relationship with Him. " To the Serpent God said "Because you have done this, you are cursed..." (read thru 3:15 the proto evangelium).
Hence the evil of Calvinism. 👿 "Hath God indeed said? Surely he doesn't want all to come to repentance? Surely Hell was prepared for most of mankind & not just for me & my Angels? Surely only an arbitrary pre-chosen elect will irresistibly turn to Christ & all others are vessels made for destruction by the Father's divine decree so he can get his glory fix... would I ever lie?"
@@hmv1405 Does God chose to save some & damn most for His glory?
@@hmv1405
Can God not use death to save a person from Gehenna? Why limit God only to this short life?
@@hmv1405 I'm not Arminian. Jacob Arminius studied under Theodore Beza an All-in Calvinist. He praised Calvin many times in his writings & publicly. He taught a total depravity like Calvin. Also, that you could loose your salvation from sinning/poor performance. Arminianism is not the polar opposite of Calvinism.
It appears you've been fed bushels of TULIPS (just having fun, but maybe the wooden shoe fits?).
I preach those vs' you listed, but in the proper context. Look what you've bought into: Only an arbitrary pre-chosen elect will irresistibly turn to Christ consequently all others can't, they have been made vessels for destruction & their eternal torment brings God glory?? But ME, I'M CHOSEN, I'M ONE OF GOD'S SPECIALLY FAVORED ELITE ELECT... FOR HIS GLORY HE CHOSE ME.
Your missing the point of the Bible. God sent His Son to redeem any, all, everyone that will & CAN call upon Jesus for salvation. To deliver all who will graciously accept His atonement (for the world 1 John 2:2) from the sting of death via sin. Read Genesis 3:14-15, the proto evangelium. It is egoic & cult-like to teach: "Only an arbitrary few of us elect will be irresistibly regenerated. Yep, us & no one else Calvin said so. Forget the scriptures that say all can be saved/redeemed. Read what our fellow Calvinist theologians have said, that any, all, everyone, whosoever & world always means us preferred elect".
All cults have a: (We are right... it's us & no one else) mentality & unbiblical teachings to go along with it. Pray, think, read the Bible & ask God if He wants any to perish?
God knows everyone before they were even born. He is God!! God pre destines only those who believe. He does not predestine people for no reason! Then, he calls everyone including the believers!! He set the criteria as he chose to do so!! Only those who believe out of all whom he called are whom he will justify and glorify.
The "elect" or the "US" is a reference to the believers. Those who believe!!
God did not choose individuals to not believe and others to believe. We all believe! We.all have the free gift of being able to believe. Faith is not works!! No one can boast because of having faith as faith is inward or internal.
How you use the free gift of faith determines your destiny. Like our Jehova God said I have set before life or death; choose life!
For God so loved the world that he gave his only son so whoever believed shall not perish but have eternal life
And
Whoever does NOT believe shall perish
White is the king of chaff and redirect on Romans 8. He didn't even address an actual objection to the Calvinist view. One thing that really caused me to struggle with Romans 8 was that word "for" in Romans 8:29. A former pastor always used to like to say, "when you see the word 'for' go back and see what it's there for." But when I went back, it took me to Romans 8:28, which begins with "And we know." So, clearly, Romans 8:29 and following is explaining why we know that that all things work together for good to them that love God and are called according to his purpose. But Romans 8:29 and following has all of this past tense stuff. I know that I haven't been glorified yet and it doesn't appear that the people Paul was writing to had been glorified yet, so it doesn't seem to be such an obvious statement about people that God knew before the foundation of the world. It was typically explained away by saying that Paul was using past tense because it was so certain to be done that in the mind of God it was already seen as done. But where that fell flat it because Paul was writing to people who hadn't experienced glorification, and he was actually giving them assurance that things would eventually work out. It didn't make sense to use as justification of his claim the very thing that he was claiming. We call that begging the question. But then someone pointed out something that cleared up the whole passage. It doesn't actually say that "those he foreknew" is referring to his foreknowledge before the foundation of the world. It just has to be people that where known by God prior to Paul writing Romans. When Paul wrote this, the term "foreknow" didn't have the theological baggage that it has today; it simply meant that these were people that God knew (in a salvific sense here, I believe) in times past. So my next question was, do we have people that God knew previously that we can point to as having gone all the way through the "golden chain." In fact, we do. Moses and Elijah. We see them in a glorified state on the mount of transfiguration. God knew them in the past (those he foreknew), he saved them before Jesus died for them (he did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son), he called them to serve him (those he called), he justified them and he glorified them. So, if we look to them and others from the old testament as evidence to support Paul's claim in Romans 8:28, we can look at Romans 8:28 and say that we have reason to believe that all things will work for the good of us who love God and are called into his service today. We know this because the Bible provides us with examples of God doing it for others, even predestinating them to be conformed to something that hadn't take place yet, for them. Romans 8 make much more sense when you remove the Calvinist lenses.
The conjunctions in Romans eight go all the way from verse 16 to verse 30
@@aletheia8054, I'm not sure if you are saying that to agree with me or disagree with me. I'll point out, however, that in verse 18 uses the phrasing, "glory shall be revealed in us", which makes it clear that Paul doesn't see himself or the people he writing to as having been glorified yet. The fact that Paul connects so much of this with conjunctions doesn't mean that everything he says is about the same people. All it really indicates is that this is a continuous thought in his head.
@@TimothyFish “ when you see the word four go back and look what it’s therefore”
Well, if you go back from verse 29 and 28 it goes all the way back to verse 16 which tells you what is there for
In Greek, they’re called subordinating and coordinating conjunctions
@@aletheia8054, okay, but it doesn't really change what I said. You can pull in all of that, if you like, and it is still true that it is the OT saints that provide the reason for us to believe that it is true. Calvinism needs the foreknown ones to be everyone who has been and will be saved, but that doesn't fit the text.
@Scribeintheink, Ephesians 1:4 is uses the phrase "us in him." Unless you are going to try to make the case that we were already in Christ before the foundation of the world then it doesn't work for you. If we are placed in Christ when we believe (Ephesians 1:13), then the choice that occurred before the foundation of the world was the selection of a category of people who would be in Christ at some point in the future.
Enjoyed all your interviews, but the arrogance of this guy is beyond narcissism.
One question worth asking the proponents of the free will of man, over the will of God, is to ask them why they pray for anyone? Other than the obvious command to pray.... what is the purpose of praying for someone's salvation? Does your prayer have some mistical power to persuade the individual? No.... you are ultimately praying that the Will of God overcome the will of man. I think it's great arrogance to believe that you, and your freewill repented and believed, but that man over there.... he needs prayer for his salvation. Or that you repented and believed in your freedom to do so, while the next man did not..... you obtain salvation, while the next man did not. It's really just a great amount of arrogance. Just some random consideration.
But if God has already decreed that it will be... What good will prayer do? Since before Esau or Jacob did good or evil God had already decided... Why should Esau pray to God then? Doesn't your logic indict the Calvinistic system? For how can anyone say anything apart for what God has decreed them to say or do?
You're assuming Calvinist soteriology when referring to how an Arminian or Provisionist would pray for a lost person. Since we don't view soteriology through a Calvinist lens, that is not how we pray. We pray assuming God moves on behalf of his people when they pray, that he cares for all the lost, that he is capable of drawing people to himself, and that people have the ability to put their faith in Christ when presented with the gospel.
The original commenter has it completely backwards. There is absolutely no point in praying for anybody, or anything on determinism. Everything is set in stone and can not be changed, rendering prayer useless. If you do pray, you were determined to do that too.@@Cattleman16479
If you think Calvinism is not deterministic, I think you better study up on Calvinism.
Monergism is the Calvinist view of soteriology, not the Arminian view.
@@Cattleman16479
@@SOG323 What good would prayer do? We have a desire that everyone be saved. And we desire that so God may be Glorified... Chiefly. And that His will be done. That's why we pray.
@@Cattleman16479 And you seem to miss the point that on Calvinism, whether you pray or not has been determined by God from eternity past. You are effectively just a character in a story book. You cannot do other than God has determined you will do so even praying becomes pointless becaause it wasn't your choice to pray or not at any given moment
Why are people still calling James White “Dr?” - It’s been refuted for years that he does not have a real doctorate degree. -I am thankful for his ministry-but this whole “Dr” thing is dishonest.
Come on now.
In the vast majority of fields of tertiary study these days, academic accreditation is so corrupt as to be meaningless. He deserves the honorific as much as anyone coming out of an accredited institution these days. It's a pity that recent events have prevented him from completing his CBGM work with North-West University in South Africa - it would have put all of this to silliness bed.
He did the work to get the degree. Just because the school doesn’t meet a set of standards set by some governing body doesn’t mean the degree is worthless and we shouldn’t call him “doctor.” His body of work proves that he deserves the title and didn’t receive a degree unworthily from a scam school or “diploma mill.”
8:05 Dr. James rightly concludes the whole sum of the difference between Exhaustive Self Determinists, ie Provisionists and ilk, and the elect sons of Gods understanding of Truth in Gods Holy Writ. The "Spirit of God."
No Spirit: No Truth.
Unregenerates Cannot Understand Truth
Once an elect son of God has been born again from above by the power of Gods effectual grace, and MADE a utterly new creature in Christ, and given the Spirit of Truth, it's natural to believe everyone else has the same wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of Gods Word as you now do. Yea, you cannot see that they do not see, and it frustrates you. All Gods elect are given, supernaturally, spiritual Truth by the Spirit. The Spirit is Truth. John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, 1 John 4:6, 5:6.
Here, the same happened with Moses. He "supposed others would understand what Truth he was given by God, but they couldn't."
Acts 7:25 KJV - For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
Two promising (coming) provisionists there 😂.
Hellish and unbiblical view on 1 Tim 3:11.... Which bleeds on to all aspects of their theology, families, wives, children, et all
Don’t you know only the OVERLY emotional interpret John 3:16 to be….”for God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.
No one besides crazy emotional pelagians would interpret it to be whoever and not THE ELECT.
Why did God have to come to fulfill His predestinated end if all He had to do was call who He already elected before the world began?
Your be-all and end-all us that calling comes after predestination.
I mean, just send more prophets out and continue to call that way, if the calling is the be-all and end-all.
You're missing the fall of man in between.
You're missing the fact that man went His own way, which He ALLOWED them to do to, giving them free will.
Giving them free will is the only way justice and accountability comes into account. Without free will Gid is the author of good AND evil, yet you are so blind to this.
You all act like there is no other actions God had to take in order for man, who are prone to fall, to get to where He wants us to go.
No, not because man left Him no other choice but for LOVES sake. It isn't love if you control a beings will, that's more like what a captor would do.
That's why I don't believe Calvin. Even if I did I wouldn't be known as a Calvinist, that's heretic. Read Paul:
1 Corinthians 1:12-13
King James Version
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
@Scribeintheink
What did you read into when Abraham approached God on Him being just?
Genesis 18:24-32
King James Version
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
God is Just and the justifier of them that believe on the Son of God.
Romans 3:26
King James Version
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
I will have you know I am in Christ no matter when I believe I am regenerated, as I love Him, believe He is God and I live by Him, as He lives by the will of His Father, our Father.
You don't have to accept what I say, I am just a messenger sent amd as such Iook to edify my brothers and sisters.
@Scribeintheink Unless you get your doctrine from God then it is a man-made doctrine.
It's not named after you is it? We are Christians!
God has predestined that whosoever will believe in His Son (the Gospel) will be saved (Eph 1:13). Jesus is the ONLY Person who reveals the Father, so He doesn't know you unless you first have belief in His Son.
Matthew 11:27 KJV
... *_neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him._*
Luke 10:22 KJV
… and no man knoweth … *_who the Father is, but the Son,_* and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
John 14:6 NASB95
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; *_no one comes to the Father but through Me._*
Mark 16:15-16 KJV
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and *_preach the gospel to every creature._*
[16] *_He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned._*
When James White clings to a strict reading on John 6 it’s exegesis. When a *woman* clings to plain words in John 3, it’s female emotionalism and eisegesis. 🤦🏻♂️ Per usual.
I was predestined to reject Calvinism because it is a false Gospel.
James White is one of those false teachers that Saint Paul warned us about! Holy Scripture teaches we shall each be judged as we have judged others and we shall each be held accountable for every careless word we have uttered and shall each be liable to judgment if angry with others and we shall each receive recompense for BOTH the good AND THE BAD we have done in the body on judgment day and we must all strive for that holiness without which no one shall see the Lord! James White says none of this True! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
LOL...all Calvinists want to do is talk about Romans 8! So weak! So, Romans is to be read (according to White) as if it is all they are 'going to hear', then what about TODO SCRIPTURA!!!! Al of Scripture is inspired, not only the strongholds of James White's view of it all.
@HaroldZwingley lol...nope.
John 3:16 is the Scripture, Calvinist do not believe the Words of God.
Calvinism is entirely unbiblical and wrong.
@@Cattleman16479 It teaches a God that made all mankind, but decided beforehand to send some of them to eternal death and some to eternal life. It's farsical. And entirely against the teachings of the Bible. The doctrine of election is foisted onto scripture and it's a terrible, even blasphemous error.
Thank you
It seems that they criticize emotions. I don't base my interpretation on emotions, but that doesn't mean the possible interpretations are emotional
notice how Keith said it's nice to see James, But James doesn't give him a cordial greeting. I really want to like him but he's such an arrogant jerk and will never admit if he's wrong about something. Bring Leighton back :-) You will know them by their love....
Well, he did give Keith a bowtie, so there is that.
@@TimothyFish can you honestly tell me that james treats people like the Bible says
Phil 2:3 let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. 4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
@Scribeintheink redirect to flowers :) i have watched james for 3 years. I have enough to go off of with discernment. His ministry is to show that calv in wrong because it paints God as a bipolar(two wills) that damns babies to hell with no free will to repent. Very unbiblical.
You say i should repent. Under calv, can I repent without a special work? Or am i born with the ability?
@@rocketsurgeon1746, I can't tell you that I always treat people that way. I just don't think we should assume that James always treats people badly.
@@TimothyFish always? Funny when people use words like never and always. If i said I don't always beat my wife, what would you say? You should agree with me that we should not treat brothers the way he does. He does it far more in debates and videos than a christian should.
Whatever happened to the Jim White we first saw on John Ankerberg back in the 1980s? This is not the same brother. Between tattoos and joining the cool tattoos hipster Calvinists led by Jeff Durbin and friends leaves you wondering how this all happened? Talking about Islamic brotherhood Members are mentors and maintaining a friendship with false teacher and false prophet charismatic Michael Brown is indeed troubling. Plus his rep for arrogance and self importance. Popular private ministries usually are a factor in all of this.